Steli Efti is the co-founder and CEO of Close.io. He also co-hosts the show The Startup Chat Podcast.
In today’s episode of The Startup Chat, Steli and Hiten talk about how reinvention causes everything to thrive. People or companies might seek to reinvent themselves or change the way they do things, and most of the time, this can be a good thing. However, a lot of the times, people think that for you to reinvent yourself, something has to be destroyed. While this is true in some cases, it doesn’t always have to be. In this week’s episode, Steli and Hiten talk about reinvention versus destruction, one beautiful thing about the USA, how reinvention can cause hardship and much more. Time Stamped Show Notes: 00:00 About today’s topic. 00:31 Why this topic was chosen. 01:07 Reinvention versus destruction. 02:24 One beautiful thing about the USA. 04:01 How reinvention can cause hardship. 05:13 How more American companies go through reinvention. 05:47 Why Hiten wrote this tweet. 06:01 How America has always been about reinvention. 06:23 What destruction is about. 07:19 What causes things to survive and thrive. 3 Key Points: I don’t think destruction is always required for reinvention.Reinvention is such an interesting concept.It is not easy to reinvent yourself. [0:00:01] Steli Efti : Hey everybody, this is Steli Efti. [0:00:03] Hiten Shah: And this is Hiten Shah. And today on The Startup Chat, we’re going to talk about something I… Popped in my head and I tweeted. And the statement is, “Reinvention is what causes everything to thrive.” And for me, just to lay it out real quick, this comes from the fact that many folks think about destruction, or destroying things, in order to build them up again, or start fresh. And I feel like that’s a very… Has a lot of negative connotations and can probably bring up a lot of things that prevent people from thinking about how to change and adapt. I truly do believe that is how you thrive. And when I think about it like that, I think the right word is reinvention, versus destruction, or versus tearing things down. Because I don’t think, that is always required for reinvention. Maybe it is sometimes, but our worldview, I believe, which is healthier, should be oriented around, at least my worldview, I prefer being oriented around reinventing the things I’m working on. My business, my product, my marketing, my sales, whatever. Myself. Over thinking of it as rebirth, which is what a lot of other folks sometimes call some of this stuff. So anyway, I know you wanted to talk about it Steli, because you saw it amongst the things I tweeted recently. [0:01:38] Steli Efti : This is one of the new format that we’ve established this year, which is, Hiten tweet episode, which is when I see a tweet of yours and I’m like, “I wonder why he tweeted that. This interesting thing. Let’s talk about it.” Which is what we would do if we met up for coffee today, I’d be like, “I saw this tweet of yours. What was up with that? That’s an interesting thought.” I think reinvention is just such an interesting concept. See, I thought about it very differently, because I didn’t have the context. But to me, one thing that I’ve always been explaining to Europeans, about one of the greatest things about the US to me, and the US has a lot of bad things about it, and I talk about that as well with people, but the one beautiful thing that I find in the US to be more true than in any other place that I’ve ever lived or visited, is this belief in the individual, and the belief in the power of reinvention for the individual, right? [0:02:50] Hiten Shah: Yes. [0:02:51] Steli Efti : So you can be anything and everything you want to be. And there’s no expiration date to that. [0:02:57] Hiten Shah: Right. [0:02:58] Steli Efti : There is none. You could be 60 years old, your whole life you were an accountant and you now want to be an actor. America is just going to go, Go for it, buddy. [0:03:09] Hiten Shah: Yeah why not? Go for it. [0:03:10] Steli Efti : Pack up your shit, drive to LA and go for it. Right? [0:03:14] Hiten Shah: Give it a shot. [0:03:15] Steli Efti : Give it a shot. [0:03:16] Hiten Shah: Absolutely [0:03:17] Steli Efti : No other place on earth. Not a single other place on earth… [0:03:22] Hiten Shah: Embraces that. [0:03:23] Steli Efti : Is embracing that. Every other place on earth in one version or another, would tell the 50 or 60 year old person, “Shut the fuck up, sit down and be an accountant like you’ll be for the rest of your life. You can’t do it. It’s too late. You can’t do it.” And to me, that is one of the most powerful ideas that America has ever produced. It’s the idea, that the individual can be anything and everything they want to be. And there’s no exception. And there’s no expiration date to that. You can reinvent yourself in your eighties, go for it, buddy. We believe in you. That obviously can cause a lot of hardship, right? Because, it is not easy to reinvent yourself. And it’s not, everybody is on equal footing in terms of talent, looks, whatever, background to accomplish anything they want in life, obviously, right? There’s a lot of heartbreak that comes with that idea, right? Which is a lot of heartbreak that comes with the idea of greatness in general, right? You want to be great. You’ve got to have your heart broken. More so than settling to whatever you can easily attain, but that’s such a powerful idea to me, a beautiful idea to me. So when I hear reinvention, I always think about this powerful American idea of, you can change your life, you can reinvent who you are, your identity, your life, at any given point in time, you just have to decide, and it’s within your power. And that potentially is also part of the power of a lot of American companies that have been around for a very long time, where I don’t know if this is true, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s also true on a corporate level where there’s more American iconic company stories, where a company went through multiple stages of complete reinvention and rejuvenation. Just becoming a completely different company because it was bold enough to believe it could become a completely different thing. And so that’s kind of the fascinating, but now let me ask you, was there a specific conversation or thing you read, or something that triggered the tweet, or was it just something because of the news, because of what’s going on with a collective current energy around tearing down and destroying current systems of the past, that make you think destruction, no, reinvention? [0:05:56] Hiten Shah: Yes. [0:05:57] Steli Efti : What was it that caused the tweet? [0:05:59] Hiten Shah: I think you brought it up in a way about America. I don’t think America’s ever been about destruction. I think it’s always been about reinvention. You’re trying to reinvent things, and people are trying to reinvent things. Part of it, is this idea that nothing is permanent. And we think a lot when we think about permanent, and impermanent to be about destruction, but that would mean that everything that came before something didn’t matter. In a way destruction is about things that don’t matter anymore. And that’s the general feel when you think about that word. While reinvention is about, to do it again. We get to do a better. To do it differently. So in a way it’s about language. I think in terms of what’s going on in the world, and that thought, it’s very unrelated for me in the sense of like, I think there’s destruction and I think there’s good reason for that. At the same time, what are we really aiming for? We want to reinvent a lot of things. I mean that’s what all this destruction is about. So I never really thought about it that much. The focus for me was more on the thriving part. Which is like, what causes things to survive and thrive? And what’s the pattern? And I think reinvention is the pattern, nothing else. So coming out of the civil unrest, in America, what’s going to happen? Well, if something is to change, there are many things that are going to have to be reinvented. And that, your guess is as good as mine, whether that’s actually going to happen or not. And so all this destruction needs to have reinvention at the forefront of it. And at the current moment, it doesn’t feel like it does. And we’re just starting to come to a place where it might, but the way things work out usually in the world is like, there’s a lot of noise and nothing changes. And so this is more about, how do you change for the better, how do you thrive? And I think the word I got to was just simply put, it’s about reinventing things, because they can be done better, now that we know better. Even if the way they were done in the past, we thought was good enough. Once we realized it’s not, what do we get to do? And I think your sentiment about America is really needed right now, because that is America. America is the country where you as an individual, get to reinvent yourself. But so do people, groups of people and so do companies, organizations, and thus, so does the world. [0:08:54] Steli Efti : What do you think causes reinvention more? Is it unhappiness or pain or is it inspiration? Maybe let’s move away just for a moment, away from the individual and think about companies, startups, founders, right? When you’re on a certain path with your company, the companies that have successfully reinvented themselves, what’s the formula? What is the trigger? What causes that? Is it just an inspiration, a grasping for something new? Or is it, a running away from the old, or sensing that the old is coming to an end or something like that? What has caused the best reinventions to happen, or when you have reinvented yourself or any of your businesses, what triggered it? [0:09:44] Hiten Shah: Awareness. You don’t get to reinvent anything unless you have awareness. Individually, you’re, self-aware. Organizationally, you become organizationally self-aware as a organization, which means evaluating things that you’re doing, not just letting them be, and making sure that if they’re broken or if they can be done better, you find a path, you find a way to do them better. So if your business is struggling right now, reinventing it, is what you need to do. I look at all the restaurants that are actually thriving right now, they’ve all re reinvented themselves. It’s probably the most impactful example I can have right now. For every restaurant that needs to reopen or wants to reopen, if they haven’t already reinvented themselves, they’re going to have to reinvent themselves. They’re going to have to reinvent core aspects of doing business, whether it’s as simple as temperature checks of employees, all the way to ways to actually deal with the increased costs, without necessarily to straight up passing it on to the customer. All those things require reinvention. I think we are now at a place, with a couple of different things that have happened, and maybe more, that the opportunity is reinvention. We actually get to reinvent so much more than I think we know we’re going to have to, or get to, in the coming weeks, days, months, years, maybe even decades. This is not a simple thing that has happened to us. This is not a straightforward thing with a straightforward solution, whether it’s the pandemic or the unrest. And I personally call it, civil unrest. That’s what I think is happening, and now it’s global. Which is blowing my mind, that it’s global. Not because of the topic, or the severity of it, none of that. That’s cool, I get that, and I mean` that’s not cool, but I get it. What I mean is, it’s global. Wow. That’s when you know, there’s just a lot that probably could be changed, because it isn’t localized. This kind of unrest when it happens in America, apparently it goes global. That hasn’t been the case for almost anything I can recall. I’m not a historian. I don’t know. [0:12:12] Steli Efti : I don’t think so. [0:12:13] Hiten Shah: But wow. Right? And that’s what got me. It’s one thing to be like, “Okay, there’s a bunch of stuff happening in America.” It’s another thing to be like, “Well, it’s happening in France now. It’s happening in England. It’s happening everywhere.” So I think we have a lot of opportunity going forward, but we should think of it more as reinvention, not destruction. We’re not trying to destroy anything. We need to reinvent the way we think about things, and the way we do a lot of things. [0:12:40] Steli Efti : Beautiful. Especially, I don’t know why, but especially during this episode, you’ve spoken more poetically, even [inaudible] the usually, but it’s such a beautiful, important, I think, thought, to share with people, asking yourself, “What needs reinvention? What can I reinvent? What can I participate in, in terms of the change I want to see?” And trying to all do our parts of moving away from the thing we want to tear down and kill, and are unhappy about, and want to critique and throw things at, to what is the awesome thing we want to build? If there ever was an opportunity to reinvent things on a global scale, to invent things to shake things up, seems to be right now, the time seems to be now. So what do we want to do with that opportunity? I think that’s the big question. [0:13:33] Hiten Shah: I couldn’t agree more. I mean, that’s where we’re at. I mean, we don’t have a choice. [0:13:37] Steli Efti : Yeah. It’s going to happen. So the question is just, “What are we going to make happen?” [0:13:42] Hiten Shah: Right. [0:13:42] Steli Efti : Yeah. My man, all right, we’ll wrap this up at this point, and we’ll hear all of you very soon. [0:13:52] Hiten Shah: Bye. [0:13:52]The post 518: Reinvention Causes Everything to Thrive appeared first on The Startup Chat with Steli & Hiten.
In today’s episode of The Startup Chat, Steli and Hiten talk about how to make plans during 2020. With everything that has happened in 2020, you’d be forgiven if you chose to describe this year as the year of crisis. With this crisis comes uncertain and it can be quite challenging to make long-term plans in uncertain times like these. In today’s episode, Steli and Hiten talk about if you should make plans in 2020, how you should plan in this year, why your timelines have to be shorter during a crisis and much more. Time Stamped Show Notes: 00:00 About today’s topic. 00:42 Why this topic was chosen. 01:33 Should you make plans in 2020? 02:43 How you should plan in 2020. 04:19 Why your timelines have to be shorter during a crisis. 04:59 How Steli currently makes his plans. 06:04 The right way to approach crazy times like these. 08:00 How Hiten approached the crisis. 11:59 How teams could deal with high pressure. 12:12 How you can adapt to the uncertainty. 3 Key Points: You’re just planning, but not as far ahead as you normally would.2020 isn’t done with us.During a crisis, your timelines have to be shorter [0:00:01] Steli Efti: Hey everybody, this is Steli Efti. [0:00:03] Hiten Shah: And this is Hiten Shah. [0:00:05] Steli Efti: And today on The Startup Chat, we’re going to talk about how to make plans during 2020. So, making good plans is always challenging, but I find 2020, I mean… 2020 is a particular, unique year, in that it probably is a more challenging year for companies and startups and founders to make any sort of plan that people might have real confidence in, especially if it’s a longterm plan. So I’ve encountered this a couple of times this year already with friends that I thought it might be useful for the two of us to unpack this for our listeners, which is, “What the hell do you do?” If you run a startup, if you’re a founder and you want to plan, should you, in 2020? Are plans completely useless? Are they totally useful? And how should you think about making plans kind of the way that we approach this and the things that we’ve seen work well? I thought might help founders keep their sanity and hopefully accomplish more of the things they want to accomplish, even during an outstandingly crazy year like 2020. So, first of all, let me ask you this question. 2020, should we still make plans or would you advise anybody to stop making plans because this year is too nuts? [0:01:29] Hiten Shah: So, the… The… I’ve had, like, two or three conversations specifically about this, and I’ve shared something that… By the time I have two or three and I get the same question, and it’s a new question, I tend to like, have some kind of way to think about it or, like, you know, I’m driven crazy, you know? So I think that’s a really good question. The way it worked for me, and the way I was approaching this, not too long ago is I… Hang on, I just need to fix my mic. So I basically… When the sort of pandemic came along, I was taking things in a sort of hour by hour adjustment period, so to speak. So everything to me was thrown out the door because now all of a sudden, there’s this virus that we’re all dealing with and we have to sort of figure out what that means for us. And so I was taking it hour by hour because new information was coming in. This is like all up to about Shelter in Place. And then after Shelter in Place, I think the first few days were very similar and our, by “our”, meaning, like people were consumed with the news about it. Nobody knew what was going on obviously, and what was going to happen to us as a society like overall. Like what’s next? And then basically I… I realized that I was then going day to day and after that I was going week to week and I barely got to like a month ahead. And then the protests started and the rioting and kind of… And then it got global. And then I got back to like almost an hour by hour, just making sure that like, you know, people I knew were safe and accounted for and were kind of, you know, taking care of themselves and then more news kept coming in and opinions and all these other things. And then I went to about day by day. And right now, I’m still at about day by day. I think I’m about to be week by week soon, maybe starting next week. And what that means is you’re just planning not as far ahead as you normally would. Because oftentimes we’re planning the month, the quarter, the year. I don’t think we can do that. And it’s not because I expect anything new to show up, but I definitely, more than ever, expect the unexpected. [0:04:12] Steli Efti: Yeah. 2020 isn’t over, and isn’t done with us in my opinion. So that’s interesting. So first let me… I’ll share my side of things because there’s a good amount of overlap, but there’s some differences and then we can unpack those. I think that… I think by principle, I kind of follow a very similar strategy where, you know, once the pandemic hit and kind of the quarantine and all that. Even before that, I think that my… I think that my basic principle is that during crisis, your timelines need to be short. Shorter, right? Because it’s like the most adaptable that when… Because there’s new information, and information can be quite drastic in the way that it shifts things and circumstances and realities. It seems that the super longterm plans are very, very useful in a more stable environment. But when you have massive instability and where there’s huge volatility, it just makes no sense as a futile exercise to try to plan for the next six months. [0:05:23] Hiten Shah: Right. [0:05:23] Steli Efti: So the planning cycles shorten drastically. Now, they didn’t… I didn’t go to day by day for me, but what happened was that I moved them to week by week. That was kind of from the get go, my like, “All right, we scrap the quarterly plans, scrap the plans for the year, we have to plan sprint. We have to plan one sprint at a time and we’re taking these weeks one at a time”. And that’s what I did personally, but also what we did from a company perspective, which is another thing I’d be interested and curious about on the day by day thing. And, you know, then, the rights and civil unrest situation happened. Even before that things seem more stable, but I.. So people were pushing a little bit, maybe we should extend the planning cycles, maybe things are back to normal. And I think my opinion at the time was that things were not normal, but we had just gotten used to it. Right? We just had gotten used to some of the things that were going on in the world, but nothing that was happening seemed normal or stable to me. And then the whole civil unrest around the world situation happened. I think it… Funny enough, I think that their, the reactions emotionally, especially for many people that I knew were even much stronger than with a pandemic. And I don’t know if it was because of the subject matter, or what I suspect, it was also a compounding effect. Like, so much had built up, so much anxiety, so much stress, so much unhappiness and worry. And then something like that happens, such a crazy injustice and then kind of… It just explodes and people feel very strong about it. And so, we never got to adjust our temp… Plans for timing, and it just stayed week by week, up until today. And the advice that I’ve been giving to a lot of founders has been that, you know, during crazy times like this, you want to adjust and adapt fast. And so that means you can’t be rigid with your outlook of the future. You can’t be rigid with your beliefs of what’s going to happen next and making these three to six month plans right now, just seems… Just seems like an exercise to try to control the future and make things stable or feel safe. And I think the problem with that… The particular or… The pitfall that you can step into is not just that it’s an exercise that will be useless in two weeks when something new happens in the world, but it’s also that you might get sucked into wanting to believe in that plan, and then when new facts arise and when the world is changing, you might have a bigger tendency to want to ignore these and to hold onto your quarterly plan or whatever. Right? And not adjust, not adapt, not change quickly enough as the world is changing. And so I think we’re super aligned on the: shorten the timeline, it’s probably a good idea. Super longterm plans right now: probably not that good of an idea. Let me ask you on the day by day, is that something that you did personally? Or is that really what you did personally, as well as with your company and everybody in your team? You said, “We’re, you know… We’re scrapping all the plans. We’re just every day in the morning, we’re going to decide what we’re going to be working on”. I… It’s hard for me to believe that that would be the case, but I’m curious to hear that. [0:08:56] Hiten Shah: Yeah. I think, generally, a team needs some level of clarity from leadership, for lack of a better word. And the areas we actually took a more day to day approach, especially earlier on, before we could see the patterns, was sales. And that was because of lead volume, depending on kind of the business you’re referring to, or like you want to talk about. But just generally speaking for everybody, lead volume was different for different types of businesses. It either went to zero, or didn’t change, or blew up in a positive way. It was basically one of those three. But you had to take it day by day to really figure out what was going on, and what those patterns were and how they changed. For me, the same happened in marketing. And then when it came to product development, I think that… I actually truly think that, like, it wasn’t… It’s not necessarily about tasks that changed day to day, it was more about planning that changed day to day. What I mean by that is, we kept getting new information that made it so if we made up a plan tomorrow, that plan could be obsolete because of something new that happened. Or something we figured out from the day before. So that’s kind of what I meant, which is like… I don’t think that to me… This isn’t about, “Oh, someone’s day to day tasks are changing”, but the angle and approach they take might be very different based on new information coming in. For example, in certain cases, we saw a lot more traffic for certain types of traffic. In other cases, we saw like a need to rejigger the roadmap, or tweak things so that they were focused on people’s sort of needs right now, compared to what their desires were prior to all of these things going on. The other thing that I think impacted this for us, is the fact that we were… We try to be very aware of people’s attention spans and what kind of content and information that they’re looking for now, versus what they might’ve been before and what they might in the future. So, in particular, I wouldn’t say I’m going day to day on tasks necessarily, but as a team, we definitely have gone from week to week to month to month. And then back to sort of our day to day, week to week, month to month back to like, we’re pretty much like one week at a time right now, roughly speaking. And… But that has a lot to do with planning because the information that comes in… The volume of different things has definitely dramatically changed in a lot of areas, at least for my businesses. [0:11:47] Steli Efti: Yeah, I agree. Now let’s bring up, maybe, one of the tension points that could be out there, which is, you know, depending on the size of your team and what you were planning to work on, and especially also what team members you have, and what they were planning to work on with their purposes. Sometimes there are these kinds of more longer term projects that, you know, you might’ve put on hold at the beginning of the pandemic, still on hold social unrest, but there’s like a mounting pressure. When can we resume this, right? Maybe they’ve been a big project to redo the website or redo your branding, or to reposition yourself in the market or to invest in some more exciting innovation on the product development side. Some of these more complex, bigger kind of projects that a lot of people have a commitment to. You put that on ice when the world is kind of first getting noticed on the pandemic, everybody gets that, then there’s social unrest holding off. But eventually there’s this internal pressure, I would assume, with many teams. Where some teams are just like, “We can’t hold off forever. Let’s keep working on these things that we know are important that we’re planning to work on”. How do you deal with that? Because the thing is, there’s one thing… One interesting question that people bring up is, “Well, what if this keeps happening now? Right? What if every two months, you know, there’s something else crazy going on?” I mean, 2020… In most years, you would not believe that that’s possible, but this year, I think nobody would make a strong argument that it would be impossible for us to see three more significant negative events in the world before- [crosstalk] [0:13:32] Hiten Shah: You know, that’s the funny thing. Who cares? I’m here right now, I don’t care. What I mean by that is, I don’t care right now because those things haven’t happened, and I can’t predict them. And if they do happen, by now with the third thing, you should have a way to adjust. And that’s really what this is about, is how do you adapt and how do you adjust? So I don’t think about that. And part of the reason is like, I might just be so used to the uncertainty in startups that like, this is just an extension of that. Where this uncertainty has kind of extended to not just my business life, but also my personal life and the lives of many other people. Pretty much everyone on the planet. I mean, we’re dealing with like things that go global really fast now. And so everyone ends up dealing with that. So I would say that like, if you’ve done a startup for a while, you just have to figure out how to embrace uncertainty in whatever ways that you’re best at and learn how to like, just think of it in other parts of your life. If you haven’t done this kind of thing and you’re dealing with it because, you know, you’re working corporate or, you know, are a freelancer or something, not quite kind of in the same level of uncertainty, then you already kind of know how to do it now. You know, I think it’s… You know, it’s obviously not great that these things have happened in the world cause they are negative. By any means, like, that you can think about them, they’re not good. They’re not things we desire. That being said, they have taught everybody how to deal with uncertainty in a way that typically you learn when you try to start something new. [0:15:16] Steli Efti: There you go. And one of the things you can learn when you start something new, is that you have to make decisions with imperfect data. You cannot [crosstalk 00:15:25]. [0:15:25] Hiten Shah: Very little info. [0:15:26] Steli Efti: Very little information. You cannot wait until you are a hundred percent certain that you’re going to be right. You have to try to be as insightful, as data-driven, as thoughtful as possible, but you have to make quick decisions. And then when you execute and the results aren’t there, you adjust, you change, you adapt. But you don’t just wait to get the perfect plan and a hundred percent certainty that this thing will work and it will work in exactly this way. And so I think that, in a time like this, you’re absolutely right. You can’t… We… There’s a quote, a beautiful quote that I can’t recall right now about like the worrying too… Like worrying about tomorrow is robbing us of our energy today, right? [0:16:03] Hiten Shah: Yep. [0:16:04] Steli Efti: It takes away all the energy to do shit today, right? Just to worry about for tomorrow. And then there’s this other… This Buddhist thing about like, you know, “Oh, you’re worried about something? Can you do something about it? If yes, why worry? If you can’t do something about it, well, why worry?” [0:16:22] Hiten Shah: That’s right. [0:16:23] Steli Efti: There’s no reason to worry. [0:16:24] Hiten Shah: That’s beautiful. [0:16:25] Steli Efti: If you think you can do something about it, that you shouldn’t worry, just do something about it. If you can’t do anything about it, what’s the point of worrying? You can’t do anything about it anyways. And so, I think this is the time where worrying is not helpful. Although, it’s very, I think, accessible and easy. Easy to do, and you just have to live your life today, as good as you can. And if tomorrow something crazy happens, we’re all in this together. You’ll figure something out, right? Just having the belief that you’ll figure a way around it. You’re just… And maybe, maybe sometime around this year, you’re going to have to change your plans more drastically, and nobody likes changing their plans drastically. Nobody. But that’s part of life, and especially part of startup life. So just creating that or adopting that mental flexibility to be like, “Even if we have just one week planned, maybe in the middle of the week, we’ll have to throw it away as the world changes”. That… If you can bring that lightness and that flexibility to the table, you know, I would assume it’s going to serve people really, really, really well because planning and worrying and then holding onto those plans and worries in a world that’s as volatile as this, is a recipe for disaster and for a lot of suffering. [0:17:37] Hiten Shah: Yep. If you’re normally worried about things, then just talk to someone who’s not like that, you know? And that can help you level set. Just to give you a thought kind of before we wrap this up. [0:17:49] Steli Efti: I love that. I love that. Find your most… Your least worrying, most optimistic, most adaptable friend or acquaintance and talk to them more often in 2020. [0:18:00] Hiten Shah: That’s right. [0:18:03] Steli Efti: I love it. All right. This is it from us for this episode. Stay safe, stay safe. We’ll talk very soon. [0:18:07] Hiten Shah: Yep. [0:18:08]The post 517: How to Plan in 2020? appeared first on The Startup Chat with Steli & Hiten.
Today on The Startup Chat, Steli and Hiten talk about the lack of mastery in inner work. As humans, we all are experiencing life differently, and these experiences shape who we are and mould us into what we are at any given time. Although some of us would love to master our shortcomings, it is an ongoing situation, and mastering inner work is the type of work that never ends. In today’s episode of the show, Steli and Hiten talk about how your strength can be your weakness, how inner work is the type of work that never ends, why you shouldn’t dehumanize your heroes and much more. Time Stamped Show Notes: 00:00 About today’s topic 00:48 Why this topic was chosen. 01:01 How your strength can be your weakness. 03:04 How inner work is the type of work that never ends. 04:05 How inner work can feel like a never-ending onion. 05:21 How what you are today will always keep changing. 06:22 Why you shouldn’t dehumanize your heroes. 07:12 How Jeff Bezos is a human. 08:47 Why there’s no mastery at the end of the tunnel. 09:51 How long it took for the Steli and Hiten to realise they were full of shit. 3 Key Points: There’s no mastery in inner work.Inner work is the type of work that never endsYour strength is your weakness. [0:00:01] Steli Efti: Hey everybody, this is Steli Efti. [0:00:02] Hiten Shah: And this is Hiten Shah. [0:00:04] Steli Efti: And today on The Startup Chat, we’re going to talk about the lack of mastery in inner work. So, here’s what I want to briefly chit-chat with you about and kind of unpack with you for the audience. Recently, I had a very intense kind of weekend session with a good friend of mine, where we did a lot of what I would call inner work, just very introspective work of what’s going on in our lives and what are the challenges? What are the limitations? What are possible blind spots? We had some very deep, very, very intense, very good and honest conversations with each other. Then there was one moment where my friend looked at me and was like, “Wow,” because I’d brought up something that I’ve just recently gotten to realize about myself and how surprising that was, because it didn’t fit my self-image at all. I was like, “I’m so surprised that I am this way.” It would have been- [crosstalk] [0:01:03] Hiten Shah: But I am. And I know. [0:01:04] Steli Efti: But I am. Now I know like, “Wow.” And then it was like, “Wow, I’m mind blown,” especially, I wouldn’t have expected you having this kind of a surprise revelation because you have such a master of inner work. And I was like, in that moment, my response was like… [0:01:19] Hiten Shah: Feel like that but not really. [0:01:20] Steli Efti: No, I’m like… I think I said verbatim and then I thought, “Oh, I should tweet this someday.” And then the world, it started exploding… [0:01:27] Hiten Shah: Wooh, yeah. [0:01:29] Steli Efti: So I’m just thinking about, I just kept it to myself. But he was like, “You’re such a master of inner work.” I’m like, “There’s no mastery in inner work. This isn’t mastery.” [0:01:36] Hiten Shah: None. Sorry. That’s good. That’s good. [0:01:39] Steli Efti: “This doesn’t exist. There’s nobody that has a black belt. You don’t remember how many books you read. I don’t remember how much I’ve analyzed.” [0:01:43] Hiten Shah: No. No. No. No. [0:01:44] Steli Efti: “You’ll never figure the shit out.” And I think that that’s what I wanted to talk about a little bit, because I think… [0:01:53] Hiten Shah: That’s great. Great topic. [0:01:54] Steli Efti: I see this with myself a lot, Hiten. I see this with some of my smartest, wisest, most successful friends. Your strength is your weakness. The thing that you spent a lot of time around… [0:02:13] Hiten Shah: Absolutely. [0:02:13] Steli Efti: Right? Is now cleaning a false sense of confidence. “Oh, I know this topic. Oh, I know myself in this way. Oh, I’ve done the work. I got the black belt. I’ve put in the years. I’ve accomplished mastery in whatever, in understanding myself or human psychology, or whatever, whatever, whatever.” And then it’s like the moment you believe that is the day that you’re a white belt again, and you’re starting to make all these mistakes and your viewpoint is distorted and you mess up. You really mess up. And so I wanted to talk about that idea that inner work is the type of work that never ends. It just never, ever ends. If you’re curious enough and if you’re honest and open enough, you should consistently get these holy shit surprise moments where you’re like, “I can’t believe this is me. How could I miss this?” [0:03:13] Hiten Shah: Yeah. [0:03:13] Steli Efti: “For 40 years, I’ve been analyzing myself. And I just now realized that this is who I am. And this is why I do certain things the way I do them, or this is how I really feel about certain things. There’s no stopping. There’s no stopping to that. Which I think is a very uncomfortable feeling because we all like… We’re all lazy in a way where we like the idea that if we put a lot of effort in something, we’ll get really good at it. And then we can try… [crosstalk] [0:03:37] Hiten Shah: Well, it’s hard to see the progress. That’s part of it, right? [0:03:42] Steli Efti: Yeah. Yeah. [0:03:42] Hiten Shah: So the analogy that many people use for this is like the idea that you’re peeling an onion. [0:03:47] Steli Efti: Yeah. [0:03:48] Hiten Shah: There’s always another, it is a never ending onion. There’s always another layer underneath that you’re missing until you peel the existing one. And that those moments are fantastic. There is no mastery here, no matter who you are. And there are some people that kind of put it out there in a way as if they have mastered it or they appear to have mastered it. And you usually don’t know unless you know them, but they haven’t. [0:04:24] Steli Efti: Yeah. [0:04:24] Hiten Shah: I’ll pick on Naval for that. [0:04:28] Steli Efti: Okay. [0:04:29] Hiten Shah: I don’t think… I’ve never heard him say he’s mastered it. [0:04:31] Steli Efti: Yeah. [0:04:31] Hiten Shah: But the way he espouses philosophy, modern philosophy, it makes you kind of think like he has. And having mastered some of the things that I know he hasn’t… I know he hasn’t. Just when I look at some of those tweets, I’m like, “Yeah, okay. You’re working through your own version of this.” [0:04:52] Steli Efti: Yeah. [0:04:52] Hiten Shah: I think one I find particularly interesting is how many people are doing his, he doesn’t even call it a challenge, but how many people are doing his meditation challenge. And a lot of that has to do with just how confident, how competently someone’s speaking. [0:05:06] Steli Efti: Yeah. [0:05:07] Hiten Shah: That makes you feel like they mastered it. So I bet your friend probably thought you had mastery because you speak really confidently. [0:05:13] Steli Efti: Yeah. Yeah, I do. [0:05:14] Hiten Shah: And so does Naval, right? Extremely competently, like he knows all the answers and he gives you that feeling and vibe. And I know you do that too. And I think that has a lot to do with people thinking you have it all figured out. Nobody really has it all figured out. And I’ve said this a lot. I keep saying, I don’t think anyone knows any. [0:05:35] Steli Efti: No. [0:05:35] Hiten Shah: And what you know, there’s so much more to know. And what you know is what you know today. What you are is what you are today. And that can easily change. And that changeability, that flexibility, I think, is the mastery itself. That even that openness to know that I don’t know anything, as much as I either think I know or I’ve been through, or I know, there’s so much more to know, and there’s so much more that’s going to happen and so much of it in unexpected ways. A lot of these learnings also come in the weirdest ways. I got to say that because the way that you’re just really… That’s what it took for me to figure that out. Oh no. [0:06:13] Steli Efti: Yeah. I think this is a really important point though that you’re highlighting. I feel like we have… For all that we do, I think we both put a lot of effort in every exchange that we have with people and try to stress that point that we’re full of shit and we don’t know. Nobody else knows either. I think that we are all… I think we talked about this in an episode where we said, “Don’t dehumanize your heroes,” right? Where you think that there’s people that figured out life and are superhuman in the way they live life. And so you create all this stress on trying to be like them, but if you really knew them, you’d know that yeah, they might be a bit better at certain things, a bit more experienced in certain areas, but they’re so full of shit. Maybe in some areas where you mastered life, they’re like little children, right? And you just don’t want- [0:07:08] Hiten Shah: Yeah. Yeah. [0:07:10] Steli Efti: To me, one of my favorite example recently had always been Jeff Bezos because I admire him as a founder and CEO. I think he’s one of the, if not the best, CEO Founder of our job… [0:07:25] Hiten Shah: That we have today, yeah. [0:07:26] Steli Efti: That we have for sure. But for them, when the whole affair thing and divorce thing broke out… [0:07:32] Hiten Shah: It humanized him. [0:07:33] Steli Efti: It humanized it in a way where I was telling people, “Listen, even if this all isn’t right, we don’t really know everything that’s going on.” But if you look at some of the behavior of somebody like that, when it comes to the opposite sex, right? Or an affair or something, you can see a… If you read those text messages, you can see a more insecure little teenager, not like a super wise… [0:07:57] Hiten Shah: That’s right. [crosstalk] [0:07:58] Steli Efti: Kind of a billionaire that is a master of industries. You see a little teenager who is in love and horny and doesn’t know how to deal with both of these things. [0:08:10] Hiten Shah: Yeah. [0:08:11] Steli Efti: And that makes perfect sense. If you have a super brain like this person who might very early focused on using your brain and you haven’t developed other areas of your life, and maybe now is going through a phase where he’s discovering these and he’s like, “Oh my God, I have all these feelings in my body. And I’m interested in this woman or whatever.” And all of a sudden, he’s sending dick pics around like a little child, right? Not as wise, not the master of industry, not writing like a super genius, but writing like a giddy little boy, right? And that doesn’t mean that he’s dumb. That doesn’t mean that everything he’s done is nothing. Just means he’s a human. He’s a human who might have flaws. If I have flaws on areas… [crosstalk] [0:08:49] Hiten Shah: Maybe just to feel, yeah. [0:08:51] Steli Efti: And this is so true for everybody. And I feel like it’s so important, especially with people that are listening to us, podcasts like these “experts” like us where, I think, if we can misspell this idea that there’s mastery at the end of the tunnel, that there’s some kind of a different version of life, if you only accomplish X… Oh, if I only… Yeah, at that successful startup, if I only make a million… On a stage, if I only be invited to be interviewed on big podcast… If I only whatever… Then I’m going to be a different type of human. I’m going to have mastery over some of these things that consist of human life. And then I’m not going to have to feel so overwhelmed at times, so so difficult. I think that chase is a heartbreaking one because then you accomplish these things, you don’t feel that different or you have not now figured out life in its entirety, and now you feel like a fraud and you’re trying to hide that fact, right? Now, you’re trying to maybe convince yourself that you have figured everything out because I should have, because now I’m already a very successful farmer. And that sets people down a path that is, I think, heartbreaking and wasteful and doesn’t have that much beauty versus… I don’t know when it happened. Well, let me ask you before we wrap up this episode. Did you always knew how full of shit you were? Because it took me a minute. But did you have a moment where you really realized that? I’m just curious, how the journey was for you? [0:10:31] Hiten Shah: I think underneath the surface, I always had this belief that everybody’s full of shit so that made it easier for me to believe I’m full of shit too. But that was underneath, right? So no, this was a journey, but I always… The one thing about me is, I truly think everyone’s full of shit. Like literally, they don’t know what they’re saying. They just know what they’re saying right now, right? They just know what they know right now. They don’t really know much else. And I just have a strong belief towards that. Right or wrong, whether you agree or not, that’s just what I believe. And so that was there, but then kind of putting it on myself and being like a mindful of shit, that I think that’s a harder one. And that took longer to really just come up with, but it was easier just because I do have this attitude that I think everyone’s full of shit. There’s such limit, like everyone just has their own experiences. They’re limited. They’re different. And you don’t get along with everyone, right? You’re just not supposed to. That’s not what this is, this kind of living is about. It’s about making decisions, about having opinions. It’s about changing. It’s about evolving. So, yeah, I feel like there’s a lot of people out there that come across like they have it together or come across like they don’t. And a lot of this… I think one of the biggest things, and I know this is really weird of a word to say on this, but I feel like it made me less judgemental by being judgmental about everybody, if that makes sense, right? Because it just made me… It just like, “Oh yeah. That person. That’s just how they feel right now. That’s just their strong opinion right now.” And I don’t have to agree with it. I think part of it is also the freedom to not to disagree. And that was a big part of it for me. But that was me. I don’t know other people’s sort of experiences with this sort of concept. I just know mine, which is this belief. [0:12:31] Steli Efti: Everybody’s full of shit. I love that. There’s one of the things I think that connects us because I am very much on board with it… Religion. [0:12:39] Hiten Shah: [crosstalk 00:00:12:40]. [0:12:39] Steli Efti: But it happened later in life for me. [0:12:42] Hiten Shah: Yeah. [0:12:42] Steli Efti: I do think that, growing up, I definitely had this hope. There are people that figure this shit out and I want to be part of that group and I didn’t, so I was like, I’m just trying… [Crosstalk] [0:12:52] Hiten Shah: Right. Right. Yeah, but… [0:12:54] Steli Efti: Trying to study who are these people? What the fuck did they do? [0:12:58] Hiten Shah: I was going to say, yeah, based on your upbringing and that bookstore. Yeah. That’s kind of expected. I wouldn’t have expected anything else. [0:13:09] Steli Efti: And then, it was a gradual process where I started being surrounded by some people that were very successful, thankfully, very early, financially successful, very early. [0:13:18] Hiten Shah: Yeah. [0:13:18] Steli Efti: And then I was like, “Wait a second. These people are full of shit.” [0:13:21] Hiten Shah: Yeah, they just know what they know. [0:13:24] Steli Efti: And then I were like, “Hey. Yeah, I’m full of shit too. Ha.” And that started the journey of realizing, “No, there’s nobody that figured that shit out. We’re all full of shit.” All right. So there’s many ways to do this. What’s the right way for you? But it took me a minute to get there, for sure. [0:13:40] Hiten Shah: Okay. [0:13:40] Steli Efti: All right. Well, there is no mastery inner work, but inner work never ends so… [0:13:48] Hiten Shah: Nope. [0:13:48] Steli Efti: We, for sure, will try to be part of your journey. [0:13:53] Hiten Shah: Yeah. [0:13:53] Steli Efti: Stay safe. Stay saint. And we will hear you very soon. [0:13:59] Hiten Shah: Talk to you later. [0:13:59] The post 516: There’s No Mastery in Inner Work appeared first on The Startup Chat with Steli & Hiten.
In today’s episode of The Startup Chat, Steli and Hiten talk about “Should Have Done This Earlier”. Business comes with lots of challenges. Sometimes we figure out the solution to a challenge and, depending on how you look at it, might feel relieved about figuring it out or frustration about not doing so sooner. In this episode, Steli and Hiten talk about why you shouldn’t focus on the negative side of things, the benefits of having a positive outlook on things why working on our attitudes towards ourselves can be a game-changer and much more. Time Stamped Show Notes: 00:00 About the topic of today’s episode 00:31 Why this topic was chosen. 01:07 Why Hiten tweeted about today topic. 02:32 How there are different ways to look at a lightbulb moment. 03:52 How what you focus on changes how you look at different situations. 04:56 Why how you feel whenever you figure out something challenging doesn’t matter. 05:15 Why you shouldn’t focus on the negative side of things. 06:54 Why you shouldn’t set conditions for yourself. 07:00 The benefits of having a positive outlook on things. 09:53 Why working on our attitudes towards ourselves can be a game-changer. 3 Key Points: If you feel that you were dumber a year ago, you’re growing.Not every day is going to be the same.What you focus on a situation, changes how you look at it. [0:00:01] Steli Efti: Hey everybody, this is Steli Efti. [0:00:03] Hiten Shah: And this is Hiten Shah. [0:00:05] Steli Efti: And today on the Startup Chat, we’re going to talk about, this is another tweet episode. This is a new tradition we have, where Steli Efti reads Hiten’s tweets and once in a while thinks, ha, this is both very wise and kind of curious, and there’s something here that we should probably unpack for the audience on the Startup Chat. So I’m going to read the tweet that you posted recently Hiten, and then I’m going to ask you what prompted it, and we’ll just see what unfolds. [0:00:34] Hiten Shah: Sounds good. [0:00:34] Steli Efti: So here’s the tweet. “Should have done this earlier. I should have done this earlier. A statement full of frustration and relief at the same time.” All right. So what made you tweet this? [0:00:51] Hiten Shah: Yeah, it’s one of those things that’s related to another thing that I really kind of have funny feelings about. And that thing is this idea that if you felt like you were dumber a year ago, you know you’re growing. Or you felt dumb for some opinion you had, or thought you had or think you did a year ago or whatever, you’re growing. So it’s very similar to that where it’s like, sometimes you just have those moments and this is very, it’s personal life and work and business, but you have those moments where you’re like, “Oh, should have done this earlier.” And sometimes it’s just an idea that you have, and you’re like, “Crap, that’s just the one.” Or for like, let’s say, a marketing channel or something like that, that you just didn’t think of then all of a sudden you did, just to give a very simple example. Or it’s something that you just did and you’re like, “Oh, I should have done that earlier.” So it’s kind of like this feeling that I get sometimes. And I’m frustrated because I wish I would’ve figured it out earlier, but I’m also very relieved because I figured it out. I finally figured it out. I got it. All right, cool. So it was one of those moments where I felt that and felt like I had to share just to release it and get over myself. So that was it. It was just that. [0:02:20] Steli Efti: You know, what’s funny is that, I should have done this earlier, there’s many flavors of this, right? [0:02:26] Hiten Shah: Yeah. [0:02:26] Steli Efti: And there is one that is more regretful… [0:02:30] Hiten Shah: Yes. [0:02:31] Steli Efti: … And then there is a version of this that’s just more relieved. Like I should’ve done this earlier, but the underlying energy is, I’m happy I’ve done it now, right? I’m happy… [0:02:42] Hiten Shah: Yes. [0:02:43] Steli Efti: Like this is the Chinese proverb of, “20 years ago was the best time to plant a tree, the second best time is today,” or something like that. It’s like, I didn’t get it done, but thank God I got it done now. Right? But then there’s also the, I didn’t get it done then. Yeah, I got it now, but why didn’t I get it done then? I think that the difference between the two is that one is focused on the past versus the other one is focused on the present. [0:03:10] Hiten Shah: Definitely. [0:03:10] Steli Efti: And if you highlight away the past higher, then there’s more regret there. Why didn’t I do this earlier? Fuck! Versus if you highlight the present, you’re like, should’ve done this, earlier, but phew, thank God I’ve done it now. So thank God now it’s done, because I know it could very easily been another X amount of time before I would have done it, right? [0:03:35] Hiten Shah: Yeah. [0:03:35] Steli Efti: So I’m thankful and grateful that now it’s done. And so it’s interesting. It’s the same statement, could be the same situation, but the thing you focus on changes the way you feel about it, and then completely changes the energy around it. It’s sad in a way, because oftentimes, I think we all have, especially as founders, a lot of, we should have done this earlier moments, right? When you do something that now really clicks or works and it’s not the first time you thought of it, it’s not the first time it came up and you’re like, “Ah, if we’d only done it a bit earlier.” But the thing you focus on really changes that moment from a celebration to almost like it almost doesn’t matter. You’re like, we’ve done this so late, it’s so terrible. It doesn’t almost matter that we’ve got it done. And there’s just no joy in it. You get zero benefits from having it done. [0:04:36] Hiten Shah: Yeah. [0:04:36] Steli Efti: You’re just so bummed out you didn’t do this earlier that you’re like, “Ah, yeah we got it done, but who cares? We should have done it earlier.” And now on a pure materialistic point of view, it doesn’t matter, it was done. How you feel about it shouldn’t have- [0:04:50] Hiten Shah: It got done. Yeah. [0:04:51] Steli Efti: It got done, so how you feel about it doesn’t matter, but it matters a shit ton because the way you feel now will determine what you’ll do next, right? [0:05:01] Hiten Shah: That’s right. That’s right. [0:05:01] Steli Efti: And if you’re totally bummed out, frustrated and remorseful, or heartbroken about something, chances are you’re not going to get a lot of things done next, right? Chances are you’re not going to feel any energy to do more. You’re just going to feel like, “What’s the fucking point? Yeah, I got this done, but I should… [0:05:22] Hiten Shah: Totally right. [0:05:22] Steli Efti: … Have done this a year ago. What is the point of even going on when we’re this late?” And now I guarantee that with that energy, the next thing you do is probably not much, you’re not going to do anything versus the other. In the other scenario, you get it done. It’s as late, you’ve missed out as much, but you’re now excited. You celebrate it, the moment, and you’re like, “What else can I get done that I should’ve done? What is the other thing we should do, that has been a good idea a year ago?” You are energized. And so the way you feel doesn’t matter for the thing you’ve just got done, but it matters a tremendous amount for what you’re going to do next. [0:06:04] Hiten Shah: Yeah. Absolutely. [0:06:05] Steli Efti: Does it matter for you? I’m curious, is it a general attitude thing? Do you find yourself mostly being, like when I got something done that I should have done earlier, kind of relieved and happy about it in the moment and kind of gives me the boost to keep going? Or is it, does it depend on what it is similarly? It’s a big thing, if it’s a small thing. [0:06:27] Hiten Shah: [crosstalk] I’m trying to make it so it doesn’t. I’m trying to make it… [0:06:30] Steli Efti: Nice. [0:06:30] Hiten Shah: … So it doesn’t… [0:06:30] Steli Efti: Nice. [0:06:31] Hiten Shah: … Depend on it, right? [0:06:31] Steli Efti: Yeah, yeah. [0:06:31] Hiten Shah: Like really? It doesn’t really matter, because like I’m trying to make it so it doesn’t matter. Because I don’t know. We haven’t really talked about this specifically, but we set conditions for ourselves and that’s a condition that you’re setting on yourself and you’re kind of setting yourself up for failure, in my opinion, if you start getting negative with yourself about these types of things. And it’s easy to do for a lot of us. And so I’d rather have a much more optimistic, positive outlook. And obviously, you can assume that I’ll analyze the thing, not to death, but enough to know where I can do better. At least my perception of where I can do better, even if it’s not like totally reality. But yeah, I try my best, not to have an attitude where I get down on myself, because I think, especially as you’re working on some of your own things, like it’s a typical thing, not every day is going to be the same and some days are going to be really bad. And sometimes the world is just bad, like right now, that is the word, the world is bad. It’s subjectively that. I don’t think very many people can say, it’s good. I wouldn’t imagine anybody doing that. I’m sure there are people, but that’s not my people. But anyway, most people would consider what’s going on right now bad. And it’s easy to get caught up in that and lose sight of anything good. And yeah, I think this is a constant feeling. The more you get used to trying to do new things and create things from very little, which is the definition of a startup. I would say it’s almost the definition of business at this point, you’re going to have all kinds of feelings come up. You’re going to have all kinds of things come up where you’re like, “Crap. I wish I knew that. I wish I had talked to that person. I wish I would have learned that. I wish we would have done that earlier.” And the moment I had was simply like, there’s something that just wasn’t done right. And I did a good job communicating it to the people involved in a way where I was very thoughtful about making sure that nobody took it personally, because it really wasn’t personal. But something just wasn’t done right by us as a team, as a company. And it wasn’t like a massive failure, just the execution thing. It wasn’t like it didn’t hurt anyone, it hasn’t been published or shipped or whatever yet, but I just didn’t feel good about it. And I expressed it. And then 24 hours later, I had a better plan. And that’s actually what this tweet was about. I just had a better plan all of a sudden and I was like, “Oh, I feel a lot of relief and I feel a little frustrated, maybe a lot frustrated about just not figuring it out earlier.” It’s just this feeling that you could have just figured it out earlier and imagine what could happen. But at the same time, the journey is a journey, right? And that there’s no real way to hack the journey or make the journey happen faster, or building something or getting where you want to get to. And so that’s really where it came from, for me, was just something that we, as a team did pretty poorly, in my opinion, and should be doing better. But then that completely was a transformative thing for me this time, where I have a plan now. And the plan is almost 100 times better than how we had been approaching a bunch of things. [0:10:07] Steli Efti: Love it. I love it. All right. So I think we are all going through these moments, and I think working on the one little thing that can make all the difference, which is our attitude towards ourselves… [0:10:21] Hiten Shah: Yes. [0:10:21] Steli Efti: … And what we do and how we do things… [0:10:22] Hiten Shah: Absolutely. [0:10:23] Steli Efti: … Working on that can be a game changer on how much energy you create within your days for your victories and your failures, or how much energy you cost yourself and eventually, how will you be able to get done, because you’re just beating up on yourself all day long. So I love that. I love the, “Ha should’ve done this earlier.” Like I love that tonality around this, “Ha, could have been better, but I’ve done it now. This is good.” [0:10:49] Hiten Shah: Yeah. [0:10:49] Steli Efti: It’s doing- [0:10:50] Hiten Shah: That’s why we use the word should too. It’s definitely yeah. Great purpose. Well, it totally right. [0:10:55] Steli Efti: All right. Well, this is it for us for this episode. We wish you nothing, but the best. Stay safe. Stay sane. We’ll hear you very soon. [0:11:04] Hiten Shah: Yeah. [0:11:04]The post 515: “Should Have Done This Earlier” appeared first on The Startup Chat with Steli & Hiten.
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Creator Details

Episode Count
542
Podcast Count
4
Total Airtime
2 days, 19 hours