0:00

Hello everyone and welcome back to the A Word

0:02

to the Wise podcast , a space where

0:04

we curate conversations around mind

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, body , spirit and personal development

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. I'm your host , jumi Moses . On

0:11

the show today , we take a deep dive into

0:13

attachment theory . Now

0:15

, I'm sure a lot of you have heard this concept

0:18

before , especially on social

0:20

media . I know I've heard about

0:22

avoidant attachment versus anxious attachment or secure attachment , for example

0:24

. However , I've heard about avoidant attachment versus anxious attachment or secure attachment

0:26

, for example . However , I've never

0:29

fully understood the power

0:31

in understanding attachment theory

0:33

and how understanding attachment

0:35

theory can make us more self-aware

0:37

and show up better in our relationships

0:39

, especially our romantic relationships

0:42

, especially

0:47

our romantic relationships . In short , attachment theory is a psychological explanation for

0:49

the emotional bonds and relationships between people

0:51

. These relationship

0:53

bonds often start in childhood

0:55

and we're going to get deep into all of that . There

0:58

are four types of attachment styles secure

1:00

attachment , anxious attachment , dismissive

1:03

, avoidant and fearful avoidant

1:06

, and some people fall

1:08

on the extreme end of some of these

1:10

. You know styles

1:12

and a lot of us tend to be kind

1:14

of in the middle and might

1:16

change attachment styles depending on who

1:19

we're dating or the circumstances

1:21

. On the show today to help

1:23

me dissect these different attachment

1:25

styles and how they show

1:28

up in relationships is

1:30

Thomas Westenhals . Thomas

1:32

is a couples therapist specializing in

1:34

attachment theory . He is also

1:36

an author facilitator in

1:38

psychedelics , breathwork and ecstatic

1:41

dance . His expertise bridges

1:43

the gap between traditional therapy and

1:46

alternative healing practices

1:48

and in our conversation we discuss attachment

1:50

theory , how we develop our specific types

1:53

of attachment styles , how each

1:55

attachment styles play out in

1:57

relationships and how psychedelics

2:00

can help couples understand each other

2:02

better . I learned so much

2:04

in this episode and I believe you will too

2:06

. Let's get into the show , thomas

2:23

. Welcome to A Word to the Wise . Thank

2:25

you so much for being here . I'm

2:27

really excited to speak with you

2:29

. I've been looking to get a couple of

2:31

therapists on the show for a while to talk about

2:33

attachment styles and attachment theory

2:35

, so I feel like this is

2:38

a well-overdue conversation on

2:40

the podcast . But thank you so much for being

2:42

here today . How are you ?

2:44

I'm really well and I'm really excited about this conversation

2:47

, also because I feel , you know , when

2:49

I look online , there's so much different advice

2:51

going around that isn't really grounded in

2:53

science and things that actually work that

2:56

often , I think , confuse people more than it helps

2:58

them . And what is amazing about

3:00

emotional focus couple therapy it's really

3:02

well researched and it kind of gives us

3:04

a framework for how to navigate and

3:07

create self safe , flourishing relationships

3:09

, and that's quite exciting that we actually have that nowadays

3:12

.

3:12

Yes , it is so exciting and speaking about

3:15

so much information out there and

3:17

getting confused . I know attachment theory is

3:19

something that people talk about a lot . They tend

3:21

to talk about the anxious versus

3:23

avoidant and I'm going to ask you what the different attachment

3:25

styles are in a little bit . But yes

3:28

, I'm looking for some more grounded

3:30

, science-based information

3:33

and discussion around this topic . Now

3:35

I want to ask you what sparked your interest

3:38

in couples therapy

3:40

and specializing in attachment

3:42

theory ?

3:44

That's a good question and I think it came

3:46

from the fact that I messed up my own 12-year

3:49

relationship and

3:51

I remember , literally the day after

3:54

my partner had moved out , I

3:56

bought this book by Sue Johnson called Hold

3:58

Me Tight , and I was lying there in the evening

4:00

reading this book because I wanted to understand

4:02

what has happened . And as I started

4:04

to read about the attachment styles and the

4:06

different dynamics she called them dances

4:08

that we get into I could literally

4:11

see , like imagine being in a movie Matrix

4:13

. It was like this . I could see everything

4:15

that has gone wrong and in that moment

4:18

my anger and resentment got replaced

4:20

with this huge sense of compassion , both

4:23

towards my partner or ex-partner

4:25

, but also towards myself , because

4:27

it was no longer about her being the enemy

4:29

or me self-blaming and say I was

4:31

wrong . I could suddenly see these

4:33

old dances that we brought with us

4:35

from a very , very young nervous system

4:37

that we unconsciously have continued

4:40

to play out , and how they didn't

4:42

interact well together and how

4:44

that got us off track right

4:46

. And it was so incredible to just have

4:48

that moment of complete clarity and

4:51

then also be able to move forward and actually

4:53

implement that to create very

4:55

, very different dynamics , because there now

4:57

was an actual structure , and you could

4:59

also now easily see , when you went out of that

5:01

, why we were now out of balance

5:03

, right , and there was a template for how do we

5:05

get back into balance again .

5:08

I always find it very interesting when someone's

5:11

profession is

5:13

spurred out of a personal

5:16

moment

5:19

or something you know significant

5:22

happens in their life , that completely

5:24

shifts their perspective

5:26

or brings them

5:28

to a new subject matter . That

5:30

illuminates what the problem was . And

5:32

now it's like this narrow focus

5:35

to better understand it and to

5:37

in some ways teach it and

5:39

offer help to couples

5:41

who are struggling with

5:43

understanding one another . Looking

5:45

at each other , it's you versus me , because

5:47

that's how a lot of couples look at themselves

5:49

. It's not . Oh , we're a team

5:51

. We need to figure this out together . So

5:54

what are the different types of attachment

5:57

styles ?

5:58

So the literature kind of defines four

6:01

key attachment styles

6:03

. And again , I think what I just want to say before

6:05

this is because often people hear this

6:07

and then they go to their partner and say , oh , I heard

6:09

this , you are X , y and Z . This is not

6:11

something that's meant to be used to blame other

6:13

people . Actually , it's meant to be

6:15

able to help us have compassion for

6:17

other people and understand why their primal

6:20

nervous system respond in certain ways to

6:22

try and restore safety right . And

6:24

also , we're not defined . Our

6:30

attachment styles is not who we are and they're even changeable , which is very fascinating

6:33

. So over time , exposed to a secure , safe dynamic , we know that the nervous

6:35

system actually changes . So I just

6:37

want to say that before so people don't think oh

6:39

my God , this is me . It's not

6:41

a definition of who you are . So the four

6:43

attachment styles that you mentioned obviously anxious

6:46

and avoidant , but let's start with secure attachment

6:48

. So we have a framework for what a balanced

6:51

individual actually look like , right ? Because

6:53

for some people , what does that even look like ? So

6:56

somebody with secure attachment definitely haven't

6:58

had perfect parenting . We even know securely

7:00

attached adults had

7:02

parents who missed the tune about 70%

7:04

of the time . So it's not about perfection . You don't

7:06

have to hit yourself if you're a parent and say , oh

7:08

, I've been a bad parent , but what they

7:10

had is they tend to have parents who

7:12

responded to their needs and distress , who

7:15

respected their boundaries , and in that they

7:17

formed a model of the world that was

7:19

people are going to respect me , people

7:21

are safe , people are going to respond to my

7:23

needs , it's safe to get close to someone and

7:26

I'm also fine on my own , meaning

7:28

they much , much , much faster restore

7:30

balance , they have a much wider what we call

7:32

window of tolerance where they can move

7:35

with stress much more before they lose

7:37

control and can't bring themselves back , while

7:40

people who haven't had that responsiveness , they

7:42

don't have that flexibility in their nervous system

7:44

, they

7:49

don't anticipate that somebody is going to respond to them . So they need

7:51

defensive strategies to keep themselves safe . Right , and this is where we come

7:53

into all the other three , which

7:55

all are actually anxious attachment

7:58

styles , even though we don't have that label

8:00

for all of them . But let's start with anxious attachment

8:03

. Anxious attachment is someone who might

8:05

have had , let's say , somebody who might have abandonment

8:07

, a father who maybe suddenly have left , or

8:09

there has been something that had created that

8:11

nervous system to fear a sense of abandonment

8:14

, to feel that they had to let

8:16

go of a sense of self to appease

8:19

others , to get what they want . It's often associated

8:21

with what we call the people pleaser , right , very

8:24

classical . The anxious attachment is a person

8:26

who will ruminate a lot , so

8:28

when things don't go wrong , they will keep thinking what

8:30

if I had done this ? Or what if I'd done this ? Maybe

8:32

my relationship would have worked out . That's the

8:34

anxiously attached . Yeah , the avoidant

8:36

doesn't do that at all , right

8:38

, so they tend to get very

8:40

anxious and they need you know , often a

8:42

lot . I don't like the word needy we

8:45

use that a lot in our culture , but that's again

8:47

because we don't understand what's below . There's

8:49

a child that didn't have that responsiveness

8:51

. They had somebody who was not consistent

8:54

in that right and that made the nervous system of

8:56

a small child feel really anxious

8:58

, right , which is very , very normal adaptive

9:00

behavior . And for that they tried to please

9:02

this other person to make sure they would continue

9:05

to get their needs . And as a child , you need

9:07

that because if your parents don't attend to you , well

9:09

, you actually die . So it is life or

9:11

death and this nervous system is

9:13

with us even through adulthood to the day we

9:15

die . Then we have avoidant

9:18

attachment , which is somebody who

9:20

often had parents who didn't respond

9:22

, who ignored their needs , and it was

9:24

all classical . Remember when they said let the

9:26

babies cry , you know , because otherwise they

9:28

won't learn to be independent ? We now know from science

9:30

this is nonsense and it's very , very

9:32

harmful . Because what happened is a

9:35

baby , unlike an adult , can't regulate

9:37

. The part of the brain that regulates

9:39

emotion isn't developed yet . It only started

9:41

around age eight and finished around mid-twenties

9:44

. So

9:50

a young baby have no way of regulating emotion . Okay , so when they start getting dysregulated and cry

9:52

because they need food , they're tired , they're cold , whatever it is , and

9:55

nobody comes to respond , their

9:57

body start becoming so dysregulated that

9:59

it's actually dangerous . Yeah , they can even

10:01

die from it , they can go into a shock . So

10:03

the only way for the organism to restore

10:06

safety is to shut down all

10:08

these emotions . And that now learn

10:10

nobody will come when I

10:12

need it . And these are the avoidant people

10:14

that don't like intimacy . When things get too

10:16

close , they panic , they run away

10:19

. They tend to prefer to deal with stress on their own

10:21

, because they learn to self-regulate really

10:23

well because they only had themselves to , so they

10:25

don't like to depend on others . They will

10:27

constantly talk about independent . I'm so independent

10:30

, I'm so proud of our independent . I achieved all

10:32

this myself . That's often a very avoidant

10:34

person , right , but the anxious

10:37

tend to need co-regulation from other people

10:39

. They can't do that very well themselves

10:41

, right , right . And the secure can do

10:43

both . They can both regulate self and

10:46

with others . The last one is

10:48

disorganized , and disorganized

10:50

is the attachments that are closely related to very

10:52

severe trauma , and it

10:55

is a very extreme form of anxious

10:57

and avoidant attachment put together in one

10:59

. And what tend to happen was

11:01

that the caregiver that was meant to provide

11:03

comfort would do that sometimes , and

11:06

at other times it would cause severe trauma

11:08

. That meant that child completely

11:10

had to disassociate and get away and disengage

11:13

from all emotion , get

11:25

close really quickly . That's the extreme side of their anxious attachment . They want . They're

11:27

very intense . They'll be like I love you after a few weeks and you're the most amazing person

11:29

. It's very , very intense , right , and

11:32

they almost create an artificial intensity

11:34

to get you close , to soothe

11:37

their anxiety , right . But then

11:39

, when you come close , the panic

11:41

steps in because the people

11:43

that were close to them also harmed them . Now

11:45

they become the extreme spectrum of avoidant

11:48

, which is they suddenly disengage

11:50

, they suddenly completely numb out , and

11:52

for most balanced people this will be so confusing

11:55

. It will be like what ? What happened ? They

11:57

wanted close , then I came close . Now they panic

11:59

, they don't want to talk to me for two weeks and

12:01

then they will then come back again and be very anxious

12:03

and this is

12:05

a attachment style that's very difficult

12:08

to be an intimate relationship with .

12:09

And again , that doesn't mean they don't deserve intimate

12:12

relationships , but they certainly

12:14

hopefully can also get individual

12:16

therapy on the side , which will definitely be

12:18

necessary to be able to create

12:20

a safe , secure dynamic that

12:24

was an amazing breakdown , especially the

12:26

last one kind of sounds like what people

12:28

talk about love bombing

12:31

, where they meet someone and it's oh my

12:33

God , this person is so into me and

12:35

then the person switches up and they're

12:37

thinking what just happened ? You said

12:39

I was the love of your life . Now you're

12:41

not picking up my calls . So

12:43

in you talking about all of these different

12:45

attachment styles , one thing that keeps coming

12:47

up is this talk

12:50

about childhood and how that affects

12:52

people's attachment styles . So

12:54

is attachment theory based

12:57

on how a person grows

12:59

up ? Is it really heavily tied to

13:01

someone's childhood ?

13:03

Yes , it is , and it's primarily

13:05

where these neurons are formed

13:07

in the brain and the nervous system . So they become

13:10

, they operate what we call the unconscious

13:12

limbic system , below awareness , and

13:14

actually everything that comes through is processed

13:17

through this neural network before you

13:19

become aware of it . This is why people

13:21

make interpretations of what happened based

13:23

on what happened previously , right

13:25

, that's why if suddenly , let's say , your partner

13:28

is late and you're very anxious , you might straight

13:30

away come to the conclusion they don't care about

13:32

me . Yeah , and that's because

13:34

it's always been filtered through this old network

13:36

before you even become aware . So you're not

13:38

often even aware that these presumptions

13:40

can very highly be incorrect , because

13:43

we have to think about the organism , and especially

13:45

the brain was actually designed as a

13:47

predictive organism , meaning

13:50

its main purpose is to use all

13:52

data to predict what might happen

13:54

in the future , to ensure safety , right

13:56

, which is a very effective strategy

13:59

, because if every time we go to a door , we have

14:01

to figure out how does the door open and is this safe

14:03

to touch or not ? That would require a lot of

14:05

processing power , right ? So this

14:07

is really an effective system . However

14:10

, it's also faulty , because if those

14:12

early experiences created

14:14

a lack of safety , then now we interpret

14:16

everything that's happening around us through

14:18

this lens and we're also the slowest

14:20

mammal to grow up . If you look at every other

14:23

mammal , many animals are ready for

14:25

full function in a couple of weeks , couple of months

14:27

, maximum a couple of years . They can

14:29

function on their own without parents . You

14:31

know we take 18 , sometimes

14:34

even longer before we are mammals

14:36

who can actually go out and function ourselves

14:38

and take care of ourselves right . That's because

14:41

we were the mammal that was most created

14:43

to be adaptable to our environment . So

14:45

we come with a much more blank slate , meaning

14:48

that we can adapt much better to what is

14:50

, and we even know now attachment

14:53

starts even before we are born . If

14:55

a mother has high levels of cortisol

14:58

, stress hormone and adrenaline in the bloodstream

15:00

, we know that the amygdala , which

15:02

is part of the fear response , is more

15:04

primed and grow larger already

15:06

at birth , meaning that's already

15:08

priming that child to say I'm coming

15:10

into a stressful and dangerous world

15:13

, which is why we need to look out for pregnant women

15:15

a lot more . We need to provide much more place

15:17

for them to be able to have support right

15:20

, because the more stressed they are , the more

15:22

likely we get children that have a hard

15:24

time functioning in society

15:26

. So , yeah , this

15:28

forms really early and

15:30

unless we become really aware and

15:33

can then intervene with things like attachment

15:35

theory and emotional focus couple therapy , we

15:37

tend to relive through these again and

15:40

again and we tend to seek out

15:42

partners that create what's called

15:44

a reenactment . So let's say you had a very avoidant

15:46

dad , right , and it's so typical

15:48

, I get very anxious women . It doesn't mean

15:50

that it's only women that could have anxious attachment

15:53

, but it's very typical coming in and

15:55

they continue to seek out avoidant men

15:57

again and again and they're like I don't know why I'm

16:00

doing this , it's not good for me , but I'm attracted

16:02

to them and that's because , on an unconscious

16:04

level , they're going through what's called a reenactment

16:07

. Their brain is trying to get a resolution

16:09

by replaying the same scenario

16:12

, hoping this time it can

16:14

create a different ending .

16:17

That was so good , you

16:19

know . The first thing that I want to touch on

16:21

that you said is the

16:24

notion of you know even

16:26

how it starts from birth , right

16:28

how the mother's emotions

16:30

could affect the baby . And it made

16:32

me think about something that I read from the

16:35

newest book by Dr Gabor

16:37

sorry , dr Gabor

16:40

, mate , I

16:42

think I have it here the Myth of Normal . I

16:44

just wanted to make sure I got the title correct

16:46

and he talked about big

16:49

trauma versus little trauma , right

16:51

, and he was saying how , when he was

16:53

younger , his

16:55

mom had to

16:57

send him away with relatives for

16:59

his safety and even

17:01

though he was a child and she was doing

17:03

that for his safety , he

17:06

kind of I think he was like

17:08

less than one or about one years old

17:10

that was kind of the catalyst to

17:12

feeling like people were

17:14

not reliable or people that love him

17:16

weren't going to be there for him . Just

17:19

feeling alone , right , feeling very

17:21

lonely , right

17:25

, feeling very lonely . And then obviously that had , you know , ripple

17:27

effects throughout his life . But it's just so interesting how deep these

17:29

things can be and how , you know , attachment

17:31

theory , I feel like , is kind of that

17:33

red light blinking

17:35

signal that's saying something's wrong here

17:38

. This is , you're acting

17:40

out something deeper

17:43

that needs to be looked at . And the attachment

17:45

, your attachment style is not necessarily it's

17:49

the effects of a larger , of

17:52

larger symptoms , I should say . So

17:54

it's very , very interesting , and it's interesting

17:56

how you talked about the anxious versus avoided

17:58

relationship dance

18:01

, because that's the one that I see a lot

18:03

online and I want to , you

18:05

know , go deeper into that . But

18:07

before I even go deeper into that , I know that

18:09

again , it was a lot of it

18:11

is focused on how someone

18:13

grew up and a lot of the stuff that was

18:16

ingrained or programmed in their brain that

18:18

they're not even aware of . But

18:20

could someone's attachment styles

18:22

change

18:24

after dating someone ? So , for

18:26

example , let's say a secure person enters

18:30

a relationship with an avoidant person

18:32

, can they come out of that

18:34

relationship either anxious

18:36

or disorganized , meaning

18:38

you know they're open to love , but

18:40

then they also have this fear of

18:43

love when it becomes too close , based

18:45

on the experience that they had in a specific relationship

18:47

, or is it typically just from

18:49

childhood ?

18:52

So these attachment styles definitely change

18:54

, but also depending on who we're with , and

18:58

so it's very unlikely that somebody with a secure

19:00

attachment style would develop a disorganized attachment

19:02

style , because if they already have that foundation

19:05

they are much more likely to be able to come back

19:07

, and disorganized usually is

19:09

very early trauma . Of course

19:11

somebody with a secure attachment can

19:13

have trauma later in life , but even then we

19:16

know that they're much less likely to get PTSD

19:18

or complex PTSD from that trauma

19:20

. So people who have more of these

19:22

anxious attachments are also much more likely

19:25

to be affected much worse , we

19:27

know , by trauma . They're much more likely to end up

19:29

in prison etc , etc

19:31

. So you know there's a whole range

19:33

of this and we can even see it from a cultural

19:35

perspective too , because people that have more

19:37

access to resources they're more

19:39

likely to be able to give their children that attention

19:41

, to create secure attachment right , which

19:43

is why there's disproportional of some people in

19:45

prison etc . But anyway , that wasn't your

19:47

main question . So , yes , can it change

19:50

Absolutely ? So the typical example

19:53

that you mentioned , I think , was the anxious avoidant

19:55

and it's a good example of if we

19:57

take somebody with anxious attachment and

20:00

again , this operates at a spectrum right , it's

20:02

not that everybody with anxious are the same

20:04

level of anxiety or everybody with avoidant

20:06

are the same level of avoidance . But

20:08

if we take someone who's slightly anxious , put

20:11

them together with somebody very avoidant , they

20:13

will obviously come and try and get somebody to respond

20:16

. They need the closeness . The avoidant will

20:18

pull away because they feel very uncomfortable . That

20:20

will make the anxious feel more anxious , so they

20:22

will now chase more and that

20:25

will make the other one pull away even more . And

20:27

then you get this cycle where they create

20:30

more and more anxiety , more and more avoidance

20:32

, so they make each other worse , which is why

20:35

that is probably the most difficult dynamic

20:37

. They

20:46

try to find their repair and their reenactment in each other . Basically right . So it's a very classical

20:48

example , very common , but it tend to be very , very difficult to make these work

20:50

. If you take a anxious one and

20:53

put together with a securely attached , you

20:55

will see that the anxious will slowly start

20:57

becoming more and more secure , because

21:00

when they suddenly say , oh , I felt really , you

21:02

know so . So also also

21:04

the secure can listen much more to underlying

21:07

needs than other people can . So if suddenly

21:09

this anxious person were criticizing

21:11

them and oh , I can't believe you're out so late and you didn't

21:13

call me . The secure attachment is much

21:15

less likely to become defensive because

21:18

they feel safe in themselves . They're much more likely

21:20

to say , oh so you didn't feel safe that

21:22

I was out and didn't contact you , and then what

21:25

do you need ? And then , oh , I need you to check

21:27

in with me when you're out . Okay , I can do that

21:29

. So they're much more likely to respond to the

21:31

underlying need and in that you

21:33

start creating safety for the other person

21:35

. And what happens when you create safety

21:38

? Then all these behaviors and I don't

21:40

like the word needy , but we often call

21:42

it that right , but I think it's a very judgmental word

21:44

but that what people call neediness

21:46

become less and less . I

21:52

call it a request for responsiveness , because that's really what it is that become less

21:54

and less and the criticism become less and less , because

21:56

the anxiety comes down right . And

21:59

then you will see them start forming a more secure

22:01

bond . Start forming a more secure bond . But again

22:03

, if you have two people in therapy , two

22:06

people that are very aware and one is avoidant , one anxious , it's

22:09

always going to be harder , but they can together

22:11

create a secure dynamic even

22:13

though neither of them have a secure attachment

22:16

style , because they can choose to

22:18

spot their own pattern , they can choose not

22:20

to engage in those automatic responses

22:22

, and they can choose to then communicate

22:24

their underlying attachment needs , and

22:26

then they can learn how to become more responsive

22:29

to each other which is what we do in couples therapy

22:31

, essentially and then they start feeling

22:33

more safe .

22:36

Thank you for that , because it always seems

22:39

, like you know , whenever I

22:41

hear about the anxious and

22:43

avoidant dance , I'm like , how

22:46

can this work ? But so many people have come

22:48

out and say that they are able to make

22:51

it work . But , like you said , I think it

22:53

requires a heavy sense

22:55

of self-awareness to understand

22:57

. Oh , these are my patterns of

23:02

self-awareness , to understand . Oh , these are my patterns . I'm actually acting in avoidant ways or

23:04

I'm actually acting in anxious ways . And if I'm recognizing these

23:06

are my patterns , then when they flare

23:08

up I can be like , oh , I'm doing this again and

23:11

, like you said , be able to create that more secure

23:13

dynamic . And I also like the example that you gave

23:15

with the secure person

23:18

versus the anxious

23:20

person . If they were to be in a relationship , the anxious

23:22

person becoming more secure because

23:24

the secure person is able to pull them

23:27

in . Is that the same for , like , a secure , avoidant

23:30

person ? Or do you feel that people who tend

23:32

to be secure aren't necessarily

23:34

drawn to avoidant people

23:36

because they can recognize that being

23:38

a pretty difficult situation

23:41

to be in ?

23:42

It's a really interesting question . Yes

23:45

, attachment style also very much define

23:47

who we find attractive , right . And

23:49

this is why it's super fascinating when

23:51

people say , oh , but I know these people

23:53

are not good for me , but they're the only people I'm

23:56

attracted to . What we see is that

23:58

when people come into therapy and

24:00

they start feeling a more sense of security

24:03

and safety and secure attachment in themselves

24:05

because they at least have a therapy who is very responsive

24:07

to them right , which is what they need

24:09

, their nervous system needs Then

24:11

they start slowly becoming attracted

24:14

to different people , exactly so

24:16

. You know , I've seen plenty of people who

24:18

came in and maybe had a quite anxious attachment

24:21

style and as they started feeling more and

24:23

more securely attached , they weren't so attractive

24:25

anymore to very avoidant partners . They

24:27

started becoming much more attractive to people that

24:30

were actually responsive to them right

24:32

. And I think again , there's a lot of these dating

24:34

fallacies by so-called dating

24:36

experts without any actual qualification

24:39

who will teach you all these different

24:41

games that you have to play right . And

24:43

they're completely missing the cue , because what they're

24:45

doing is they're actually reinforcing

24:47

, staying in defensive strategies where

24:49

there can't be intimacy . So what they're

24:51

doing is they're staying in the survival . I'm

24:53

in danger . I need survival strategies

24:55

, right , and in that you can't actually

24:58

have intimacy , you can't create safety , so

25:05

that reinforce insecurity , that reinforce instability , right , which is why they

25:07

don't tend to be able to maintain relationship , even though they give a lot

25:09

of advice . So , yeah , I think that's important to be

25:11

aware of and also just be mindful , because , you're

25:13

right , it's about having self-awareness and people

25:16

can make something work . I'm not saying that nobody

25:18

can work because they're anxious and avoidant . Together

25:20

, we have to just be mindful

25:22

and know that this predictive brain

25:25

that we have often is very faulty

25:27

in its prediction , and especially if we didn't

25:29

have good frameworks growing up . So

25:31

it's being able to say , oh , I feel

25:33

, I think he doesn't care about me because he didn't

25:36

call me , right , he's out with his friend and

25:38

he didn't , he doesn't care about me . Oh

25:40

, this is what my brain initially

25:42

predict . It doesn't mean it's true right

25:44

, because often I know that this prediction

25:46

is incorrect . So it's starting

25:48

to pick up these incorrect predictions

25:50

of the future that the brain is trying to do to

25:53

help us . But they're no longer correct

25:55

right , because they're based on an old model and

25:57

then we can widen the gap between

26:00

when we feel something and think something

26:02

, and when we respond , because if we

26:04

respond straight away we will go on autopilot

26:07

, which is the old responses . So we need

26:09

to learn how do I regulate enough to not

26:11

respond straight away , because then I

26:13

can start building new patterns and

26:26

something .

26:27

There are two things that I wanted to um , quickly touch on and to your point about

26:29

. You know , the more secure you become , the

26:31

more your desire or attraction

26:33

to certain people change , and I think that makes

26:35

a whole lot of sense . And

26:38

then the second thing I was thinking about , too , is

26:40

that I've seen situations

26:43

that look like someone who is

26:45

typically avoidant will get

26:47

into a relationship and then all of a sudden

26:49

they're super anxious because

26:52

they're dating another avoidant . Have you

26:54

run into situations like

26:56

that and why do you think

26:58

that is ? If you have run into that ?

27:02

situations like that and why do you think that is if you have run into that ? Yeah , I think

27:04

we also have to remember that a lot of us walk around and don't really show

27:06

what's actually going on . So

27:08

people can maybe appear to be quite

27:10

avoidant on the outside because they want

27:12

to appear confident but actually feel very

27:14

anxious right on the inside . And

27:17

, as you said , if two avoidance are with each

27:19

other , they tend to actually get

27:22

on quite well in the main , that none of

27:24

them have a big need for intimacy . They

27:26

tend to mainly base their relationship on

27:28

things like physical gratification

27:30

, having sex together , you

27:33

know , doing their careers independently

27:35

. So they tend to be able to actually get on in

27:37

that way . They don't feel very close or connected , but they tend to be

27:39

able to actually get on in that way . They don't feel very close or connected , but they tend to be

27:41

able to just function because none of them really crave that

27:43

intimacy , right , it only seemed to

27:45

become a problem when there's somebody who want that intimacy

27:48

, which someone to cure anxious , who really

27:50

crave that and that can't be given . But

27:52

yes , somebody who's a bit avoidant can certainly become

27:54

anxious , for sure , and we have to remember

27:56

that avoidant attachment is

27:58

also an anxious attachment style . Right

28:01

? When they actually measured the neurological response

28:03

, people who avoidant feel equally

28:06

amount of anxiety internally . Right

28:08

, they have just come up with different coping

28:10

strategies . So it's important to know

28:12

that these attachment styles does

28:14

not say much about how we feel . It

28:17

says something about how we have learned to respond

28:20

. Right , and that's quite important because

28:22

we can tend to presume that , oh , someone with avoidant

28:24

doesn't experience pain , they're not anxious

28:26

. That's not true at all . We know

28:28

that that's very opposite . They can be very dysregulated

28:31

, they can experience a lot of anxiety , but

28:33

they don't tend to go out and ask for help . They

28:36

don't go out and share . They're the people

28:38

that when they're stressed or anxious or depressed , they

28:40

pull away . They don't come and say

28:43

I need your help , right ? While the anxious

28:45

tend to reach out to anyone who wants to listen

28:47

, right ? So these are just different coping

28:49

strategies . So it doesn't mean that

28:51

somebody who's avoidant does not experience

28:53

anxiety internally .

28:57

And I would assume as well that you

28:59

know , like you said , all of these things are a spectrum

29:01

and someone might be super secure

29:03

in a relationship but

29:17

when it comes to their work , attachment

29:19

styles , depending on the

29:22

situationships or situation

29:24

that we're in , because I assume this is not just

29:26

for romantic relationships

29:29

.

29:30

Yes , and you're spot on , and we do so

29:32

. We tend to have a default , which is

29:34

the primary strategy that we

29:36

have , but you're absolutely right , of

29:38

course it's dependent on context . So I'll

29:40

give you an example . So

29:43

I am lucky because I had very

29:45

stable parents growing up . So I

29:47

was growing up and I got a secure base

29:49

from them , right . So I have trust that

29:51

I'll be okay on my own and I also am very happy

29:53

to be intimate and get close to someone

29:55

and I trust that most people will respect my boundaries

29:58

and my needs and

30:01

in that is a general secure base when I relate

30:03

. However , that doesn't mean I can't

30:05

be knocked out of balance , and I know so . I have a

30:07

son which is how I got into

30:10

psychedelic assisted therapy who's got

30:12

a life limit condition and sometimes

30:14

he has to spend extensive time in hospital

30:16

and go through lots of surgeries , Like the last

30:18

two months he had five surgeries

30:20

, right . He just came out yesterday and

30:23

in that period my nervous system

30:25

become more anxious and I know I

30:27

need more reassurance from my partner , right

30:29

. So there's no doubt that my nervous system was

30:32

much less in balance and it normally

30:34

is . I found it harder to regulate . I

30:36

would get more triggered by small things that normally

30:38

wouldn't trigger me at all , Like

30:40

her going to the cinema with her friend normally

30:43

would not bother me the slightest but because

30:45

I was in hospital with a screaming child and

30:47

she was out and that suddenly bothered me , right

30:49

, and I started feeling anxious and stressed . But

30:52

the difference is because I have a

30:54

secure base I could communicate

30:56

that underlying need , and avoidant would

30:58

hardly ever probably go and say

31:00

listen , this is happening

31:03

and therefore I feel insecurity and my need

31:05

is for a bit more reassurance for you while my

31:07

son is in hospital , right ? But that's what I

31:09

said to my partner and the reason I did

31:11

that and an avoidant wouldn't do that

31:13

or very unlikely to do it is because

31:16

I have trust that there will be responsiveness . So

31:18

it feels safe to to say that right , and

31:20

because I do that , I'm more likely now to actually

31:22

get what I need , right . So she said oh

31:24

, of course I didn't realize that , but I'll make

31:26

sure to do that and that totally makes sense

31:28

. And then you readjust right and

31:30

you reestablish safety . So that's

31:33

an example that certain circumstances can

31:35

definitely knock us out of balance , but

31:37

it's easy again to come back to balance if

31:40

we have this baseline .

31:43

Thank you for that example , and I

31:45

want to talk about the psychedelic

31:47

part of your expertise

31:50

a little bit later , because I know you just mentioned

31:52

that with your son , so I'm excited to kind of dig deeper

31:54

into that . But I also wanted to

31:56

talk about how really

31:58

understanding attachment theory and

32:01

attachment styles can really benefit couples

32:03

. Obviously , we've alluded to it

32:05

throughout the whole conversation , but

32:07

there was something that you said that I wanted to respond

32:10

to but forgot to was this notion of

32:12

you know dating experts or people

32:14

talking about how to play games when

32:16

you're getting to know someone , and I always

32:18

kind of thought that was silly , because

32:20

if you start off playing games

32:22

, then where's the

32:25

opportunity to create real intimacy and

32:27

get to know this person ? And then your relationship

32:29

is predicated on games , and a lot of times

32:31

I think that couples

32:34

are still playing games with each other even

32:36

though they're married and they've been together for

32:39

10 , 20 years . It becomes this like ego

32:42

war , right ? So I just wanted

32:44

to kind of really highlight how

32:46

understanding attachment

32:48

theory and different attachment styles

32:50

can really help couples communicate

32:52

better and create better intimacy

32:54

.

32:56

Yes , of course , and it certainly can . And I think , when

32:58

we talk about playing games , why do people play

33:00

games ? They play games to have a felt

33:02

sense of control over the environment , right

33:05

? Why do they have the need ? When do we need

33:07

to control our environment ? When we feel

33:09

anxious , when the fear response

33:11

is firing up in our brain , then

33:13

we need to control our environment more

33:15

, right ? So that's essentially what it is . People

33:17

who try to play games are actually people who

33:20

are in a survival mode because they

33:22

feel highly unsafe . So people

33:24

that feel safe don't tend to play

33:26

games . They don't need to , right

33:28

, because they don't think that there is a threat

33:31

in their environment . They feel safe

33:33

in that environment . So it's a big

33:35

indicator as well of somebody's internal

33:37

state when they play a lot

33:39

of games , right ? Or if they don't play games

33:41

and you're spot on , it's impossible to

33:43

get intimacy from that place if you try and

33:45

play games , and we actually know that secure

33:48

, safe attachment is the

33:50

best and most effective survival strategy

33:52

. And we know that when a child feels safe

33:54

, they don't become less independent . They

33:57

become more independent , actually , because

33:59

the children that are most likely to go out and explore

34:01

, most likely to be willing to take risk

34:04

are the ones that have a secure base

34:06

. They go out and they know I can explore

34:08

the world , but if I fall down from a tree

34:10

, I can go back and mommy and daddy will help

34:12

me , right , and because they trust that

34:14

they can go explore . And that relates

34:16

to when we become adults , the

34:24

same patterns you see . The people that are more comfortable with risk , with uncertainty

34:26

, are people that had that secure base , and it makes it easier for them to go explore . And yes , couples

34:28

can change this together . And this is what's so beautiful

34:31

about emotional focus , couple therapy , which

34:33

is obviously what I do , and also

34:35

the most well-researched couple

34:37

therapy practice , and it's the only one that has

34:39

consistent research backing up

34:41

that it works , also long term . There's no

34:43

other couples therapy that actually have that , and

34:46

the reason it works is that it functions

34:48

on some very simple steps . That

34:51

is based on the very core human

34:53

needs we have for survival , which is a sense

34:55

of belonging . We

34:57

all have a sense of belonging from the day we are

34:59

born till the day we die . Right , we are social

35:02

creatures at heart and

35:04

therefore the first part when people come

35:06

in is to identify what is a

35:08

dance that we got stuck in . Right

35:10

, we call it a dance , because a relationship

35:13

is kind of like a dance . Right , we come in , we

35:15

fall for each other . We're listening to the same tune

35:17

, we

35:20

are having a good time , we're jamming , and then , over time , we don't realize

35:22

we're listening now to two different songs

35:25

and the beat doesn't match . And I start

35:27

stepping on your feet and you're like , oh , why are you doing

35:29

that for ? And I'm like , oh , why are you not stepping right

35:31

in rhythm to get the analogy . So

35:33

this is what happens . Right , we're no longer listening

35:36

to the same tune , but when we realize

35:38

that it's not the partner that's the

35:40

enemy , because when people come in , we live

35:42

in a culture that always want to blame somebody , that

35:46

means either it's my fault and I have to feel blame and bad about myself

35:49

, or it's your fault and I

35:51

can blame somebody else . I don't have to feel

35:53

blame . However , what if there was nobody

35:55

to blame ? What if there were just two

35:57

people trying to find safety

35:59

in the best way that the organism learned

36:01

to do ? Because that's really what it is ? And

36:04

when people can see these core dancers , they

36:06

realize it's a dance , that's enemy

36:08

, it's not my partner . And when we

36:10

can externalize it . We know from human

36:12

psychology we tend to come together against

36:15

the common enemy . Right now

36:17

, they see the dance as the enemy , not

36:19

the other person and not themselves . That

36:21

creates a possibility of change , right

36:23

. So now they can spot and say , oh

36:25

, we are going into whatever they choose to call this

36:27

dance that they identified right , and

36:30

now they can instead say , okay

36:32

, what is the underlying needs

36:34

that I actually need ? What are the attachments ? Because people

36:36

never separate because

36:38

the husband didn't take out the bin . That's

36:41

what they come and tell you right , oh , he never helped

36:43

with this . What is actually being said

36:45

underneath this is when somebody

36:47

say , oh , he didn't help with this , he didn't help with this

36:49

. I hear human beings saying I felt

36:51

alone . Yeah , I

36:54

felt alone , I felt unsupported

36:56

. It wasn't about the bin , it

36:58

wasn't about somebody forgetting the dishes . Nobody

37:01

separate or argue or destroy

37:03

their marriage and separate from their kids because

37:05

of that . It's because they felt

37:08

alone . So when we can get to the attachment

37:10

need and we can express that to

37:12

the partner , suddenly their defenses

37:14

go down , because when we're blaming and attacking

37:17

, they have no other choice than going to fight a flight

37:19

too , or collapse , and we can never

37:21

get anywhere . Good when we're in that state , right

37:23

. But now , by expressing vulnerably

37:25

these attachment needs , the other person

37:28

actually goes into compassion instead

37:30

. Right , and of course it might take a few

37:32

times because it's new and in the beginning there might

37:34

be what the heck is happening here . And

37:36

with a few times they

37:40

start feeling safe enough to hear it and then you start helping them

37:42

responding and look what are you creating ? Right now

37:44

You're creating a secure attachment

37:47

dynamic , which is responsiveness

37:49

. You know , expression of need and responsiveness

37:52

. You're basically restructuring what

37:54

they didn't have as a child . So

37:56

you're recreating a safe dynamic . We call

37:59

it restructuring emotional experience

38:01

. We're giving them a new emotional experience

38:03

, but where they got the responsiveness that

38:06

they needed and in that the nervous

38:08

system starts feeling safe . And

38:10

guess what ? All the practical issues

38:12

people come in with are so

38:14

easy to solve once a nervous

38:17

system is calm and they're impossible

38:19

to solve when they're inflated and in

38:21

fight or flight response .

38:24

That was so good . I loved the dance

38:27

analogy . I love dancing just for

38:29

fun , fun story . When

38:31

I was 13 , I told my sister I'm going to run

38:33

away to Hollywood and become a professional

38:36

dancer . So I love dance

38:38

and moving the body and I really

38:40

love the analogy about you know , when it comes

38:42

to couples , it's about being on

38:45

the same tune . You know , being

38:47

in rhythm with each other . You know , doing

38:49

the steps in sync . It's not , you

38:52

know , you versus me . And when the steps

38:54

start to become out of sync with each

38:56

other , that's when you need to kind

38:59

of pay attention to what's going on

39:01

, because I think that's the part that a lot of

39:03

couples miss Like . When did we start

39:05

being unaligned ? Right ? And

39:07

I really love what you said about you

39:09

know , it's not about taking

39:12

the trash out , it's about the feelings

39:14

underneath that , the emotions

39:16

underneath that . And there was this

39:18

show that I watched a couple months

39:20

ago . It's called Couples Therapy

39:22

, and every

39:24

time a couple had a breakthrough , it

39:27

was because at some

39:29

point , they realized all

39:31

of their reactions , all of the things

39:33

that they were doing , all of the feelings that they had

39:36

. They were able to pinpoint the

39:38

emotion behind

39:40

those actions and those feelings

39:42

right , I remember this one woman

39:44

. She was just so harsh

39:47

towards her partner . He wanted intimacy

39:49

, he wanted connection , but she could only

39:51

see what was wrong with it . She felt like

39:53

she was being stifled and underneath

39:56

all of that there was this fear

39:59

that he was lying right

40:01

. And she felt that

40:03

because of what

40:06

happened to her in her childhood , her

40:08

father and the men in her life kind of

40:10

abandoning her . So there was this like

40:12

constant fear of abandonment

40:14

and that was kind of those

40:17

emotions were the reason why

40:19

she was acting out and doing whatever she was doing

40:21

. And once she realized that , it was

40:23

kind of like a light bulb moment

40:26

for both of them . Right , and I think the cool

40:28

thing about attachment theory is , if

40:30

you're in couples therapy and you have a therapist

40:33

who's kind of walking you through this , it's

40:35

like , hey , give me your glasses . Let me put this on

40:37

. What is your vision like ? What are you seeing ? How are

40:39

you seeing the world ? How are you interacting with the world

40:41

? And , to your point about that

40:44

, being able to create that compassion and

40:46

empathy for your partner , and it's like , again

40:48

, we're not enemies , there's a common

40:50

problem here and we can solve it together

40:52

. You have two imperfect people who've

40:55

had a story , who've had a history , coming

40:57

together trying to make it work . Obviously

40:59

, it takes two to tangle . Two people

41:02

have to want to make it work for it to work

41:04

. But in those settings

41:06

, when you have two people who want to make it work , I do think

41:08

it's possible to have those breakthroughs

41:11

. So , yes , that was a lot , but it was beautiful

41:13

how you said that .

41:14

And you know you're spot on and , like you said

41:16

, it takes two people to dance , which is important

41:18

. Most

41:22

people want to do that and make it work , because otherwise

41:25

it's like one dancing and the other one is standing

41:27

still and you're dragging their feet around on the floor

41:29

. It's never going to be a great dance , right ? It's just

41:31

not , and eventually the person dragging

41:33

the other one around is going to get exhausted , right and

41:35

disillusioned . So you're right , it does take

41:37

two people to dance and want to do it . But

41:40

the beautiful is now we have a structure of understanding

41:43

and we can also easily spot what

41:45

has gone on , because there's a slow cycle

41:47

like I described maybe anxious , trying to get

41:49

avoidant , pulling away , then more anxious

41:51

would become criticism and blame . Then

41:53

the other one pulling away more the avoidant

41:56

tend to say things like I can never get

41:58

it right or I'm gonna fail

42:00

. That's typical words of an avoidant right

42:02

and and then they get into this slowly

42:04

. But there there's also attachment injuries

42:06

, and attachment injuries are really

42:08

significant and important to understand , because

42:11

that an attachment injury was

42:13

if one of the partners were in a key

42:15

moment of distress . He

42:18

had

42:20

a surgery

42:23

. He almost died on doing surgery

42:25

right , and I'm obviously in a lot of distress

42:27

because they don't know what to do . I can

42:30

see he's suddenly deteriorating Now

42:32

in this moment . Is

42:34

my partner able to respond ? And there

42:36

could be a million reasons why they can't . Maybe they're

42:39

overwhelmed , but the nervous system doesn't

42:41

care In

42:46

these instances , which is what the organism perceives as life and death , survival , there's only black and white meaning

42:49

is this person there for me or not ? And

42:51

if the person is not able to be there , it could

42:53

be a wife coming home saying I have cancer and

42:56

the husband is overwhelmed so he just walks away

42:58

, right , and she feels so alone

43:00

in a critical moment of attachment

43:03

need that it creates these injuries that

43:05

basically color the whole relationship

43:07

. And even though everything else is good

43:09

and they kind of moved on , something

43:11

lingers and just isn't right

43:14

. And when we find these attachment

43:16

injuries , we tend to be able to go back

43:18

and repair them and then everything

43:20

suddenly feels back to good again , right . And

43:23

people often are very confused because they will come in

43:25

and say well , we get on so well and we

43:27

have a lot of fun and we share all these interests , and

43:29

yet we don't feel connected . And

43:32

what we tend to find is , when we go back that

43:34

at some point in a relationship there

43:36

was an attachment injury where one

43:38

person really needed the other and

43:40

, for whatever reason , the others couldn't show up

43:42

right . And we have to go back and acknowledge

43:45

that the person have to take responsibility

43:47

. They might not have meant to hurt

43:49

, they might have had a reason , but they still have to take

43:52

responsibility for how their action impacted

43:54

the other person . And then they need to discuss

43:56

how they can prevent that from happening so

43:59

trust can be restored again . Right

44:01

, and it's beautiful to see that , because suddenly

44:03

again you kind of see all these problems

44:05

just disappear . It's almost like magic and

44:08

suddenly people are back in a flow again .

44:12

Oh my God , I love that term . Attachment

44:14

injury . Yes , because

44:16

there are moments in life that

44:19

happen that are

44:21

really really critical , life-changing

44:23

moments and if your partner doesn't

44:26

respond the way you

44:28

expect them to respond , that

44:30

does cause this heaviness

44:32

within the heart or this injury that you're talking

44:34

about . Because you said a secure attachment

44:37

style within a relationship

44:39

is someone expressing their needs

44:41

and there's a response to that right

44:43

. So if someone has tremendous

44:46

need at a very critical time and it's not

44:48

being responded to appropriately

44:50

or the person doesn't acknowledge like

44:52

oh , I dropped the ball here , that could

44:54

just continue to fester . So I think

44:56

that's really good , because I've never

44:58

thought about it that way . But you

45:01

just saying that now just was another light

45:03

bulb moment for me and I hope it's

45:05

another light bulb moment for me and I hope it's a lot of it's another light bulb

45:07

moment for people who are listening to this , thinking

45:09

my relationship is good , but there's this

45:11

part that I have some sort of like animosity

45:14

for or something here

45:17

that's a little bit misaligned and thinking like , oh

45:19

, this might have been like some sort of attachment

45:22

injury or feeling injured

45:25

or let

45:27

down by the response of my partner

45:29

and kind of attacking that head

45:32

on . That was really good . That was really

45:34

good . Okay

45:36

, so just really quickly , before

45:38

we pivot into the psychedelics portion of this

45:40

conversation , someone who's listening

45:42

to this and they recognize that

45:44

, oh , I think I might be kind of anxious or

45:46

avoidant , right , because we can't go back into

45:48

the past and relive our childhood

45:51

. How can an adult learn

45:54

to be more secure , right

45:57

? And how much does personal

46:00

individual therapy help

46:02

to supplement couples therapy ? Because I

46:04

think you know , the individual also has to have some

46:06

level of self-awareness in order to

46:09

properly engage in couples therapy

46:11

.

46:12

Yes , that's a really good question and I think individual

46:15

therapy has a place . However , I think

46:17

we have to think about all

46:19

these injuries were relational injuries

46:21

. So somehow

46:23

I've often seen that

46:25

traditional therapy and I am a therapist

46:28

too but I've often seen and have to say that it

46:30

fails a lot of people Because

46:32

coming in one hour a week and

46:34

having that does not change the nervous system

46:36

right . So couples therapy

46:39

allows us , with somebody who is already close

46:41

to us , a real close attachment

46:43

, meaning they also have much more impact than a therapist

46:45

has , right , and you spend a lot more time with them and

46:48

if you can help them start creating it , they

46:51

can really restructure these experiences

46:53

. But what do people do if they're not in a relationship

46:55

? Of course they can do . Therapy is one way

46:57

of doing it . There's also quite recent

46:59

research now since we're going to

47:01

start talking about psychedelics anyway that

47:04

has showed that certain psychedelics can

47:06

actually have a huge impact on restructuring

47:09

attachment styles , especially

47:11

anxious attachment Not so much

47:13

avoidant attachment but

47:15

anxious attachment in particular seem

47:18

to be able to benefit quite hugely

47:20

by potential psychedelic

47:22

experiences done in the right set and setting

47:24

and safe environment , which

47:26

is very exciting because it's hopefully something we'll

47:29

have more research into and then we

47:31

also can start thinking about if you're a single person

47:33

or if you're not , is what

47:35

are the people you spend a large amount

47:37

of time with ? Because they are the people

47:39

that had a huge impact on your attachment

47:42

. If you spend a lot of time on people that

47:44

are not available , that are not responsive

47:46

to you , then that's going to reinforce

47:48

anxiety and it's going to

47:50

reinforce the old narrative people

47:53

aren't going to respond to me , I'm not

47:55

worthy , or blah , blah , blah , whatever . These

47:57

narratives are within form around

47:59

that right to make sense of it . So

48:01

it's really important to start looking

48:04

at choosing people , friends and whether

48:06

it's family members and spending time

48:08

around people that can give us that responsiveness

48:11

. It doesn't mean that they always can give us what

48:13

we want . You know , a child

48:15

also can't always have what they want . My kids

48:17

would love to have chocolate all the time . I don't give

48:19

them that right Because it's not good for

48:21

them . So there's also a place for

48:23

us to then acknowledge . But even if I can't

48:25

give them chocolate , I say I really

48:27

get . You want chocolate because it's so tasty

48:30

. I can't give it to you because X

48:32

, y and Z Meaning I'm still responsive

48:34

. Yeah , I'm not ignoring them , I'm not dismissing

48:37

it , I'm not blaming them . I'm not saying you're stupid

48:39

, why would you want chocolate ? I'm saying , of course

48:41

you want chocolate , it's sweet and tastes nice

48:44

, but we can't always have chocolate . It

48:46

could be your partner who wants to do something sexually

48:48

you don't want , and it's totally okay , but

48:51

then we can still acknowledge them right

48:53

? So there's a huge difference in saying oh

48:55

, I can't believe you want to do that , which

48:57

is shaming and create distance right

48:59

, and now they will pull away . They don't want to get

49:01

shamed again . They probably won't express their needs

49:03

to you honestly , going forward

49:05

or what they like sexually , instead of

49:08

saying that's really beautiful , you want that

49:10

. I can totally imagine how that could be a turn

49:12

on . However , it's not something I can do

49:14

with you , and in that now they're not

49:16

alone anymore because there's somebody

49:18

who's willing to at least hear them , someone

49:20

who's willing to acknowledge them Right .

49:29

And that can actually create closeness , even when we can't give

49:31

them what they want . Thank

49:36

you so much for that , because I something I wanted to ask but almost forgot to is do you think

49:38

we put too much pressure on romantic relationships ? Because I know you talked

49:40

about , for example , for a single person . You know they can start working on

49:42

having better attachment styles based on like the like

49:44

, the friends and family

49:47

they choose to interact with . But it

49:49

made me think of do you think we put too

49:51

much pressure on romantic relationships

49:54

for our partners to be everything

49:56

to us all the time ?

49:59

yes , it's the answer . We definitely

50:01

do , and the fact is

50:03

, again , it has something to do with a more structural

50:05

issue around how modern Western

50:08

societies are structured , which is that we live

50:10

often further away from family

50:12

, from different friends . We are often

50:14

more isolated in that way , so

50:17

we tend to not have communal communities

50:20

around that provide different roles , which

50:22

is originally we were meant to live , and

50:24

the brain is designed to live and relate to 200

50:26

people approximately at max right

50:29

and now we're in cities . I'm in as close

50:31

to london where there's 8.5 million

50:33

. This is why people shut down

50:35

, because literally , we were not designed to relate

50:37

to that many different people . Right , and we can seem

50:39

very cold in that , because the

50:41

nervous system just said this is too much

50:44

overwhelm . Shut down . So

50:46

, yes , we do , because you know the

50:48

partner can't be the person you find funny

50:50

, the support , the sexy person , the person

50:52

you share all your interest with , the one you

50:54

found safety with . So we do need

50:56

to have different resources , right

50:58

, and actually women are much

51:01

better than this , also cultural , than men are

51:03

. We know that in breakups , women

51:05

tend to deal much better with it than men do

51:07

, because women tend to have maintained

51:09

other relationships while they're

51:11

in a relationship , while a lot of men have

51:14

the tendency to negate a lot

51:16

of friends when they're in a relationship and

51:18

put everything on the relationship and suddenly

51:20

, when it's not there , they're like , oh my

51:22

God , I don't have anyone here and they feel very , very

51:25

alone , right ? So it's absolutely

51:27

critical to have these different

51:29

elements outside the relationship so

51:31

you can get support from different people , so you

51:33

can laugh with different people

51:35

, so you have these different resources available

51:37

, right , it's definitely your partner cannot

51:39

supply all that , because it was meant to be a community

51:42

and not one person who gave us

51:44

this .

51:46

I agree with you . I think we need to

51:48

lean more on other types

51:50

of community outside of our romantic relationship

51:53

, though I do think the person you choose

51:55

to be with in a romantic sense

51:57

somewhat plays a heavier

51:59

role in influencing your life in certain

52:01

ways . But to your point , I

52:03

do think that we're not just meant to put

52:06

all of that on one person . So thank you for explaining that , but , to your point , I do think

52:08

that we're not just meant to put all of that on one person . So

52:11

thank you for explaining that . Okay , so I know that

52:14

in your expertise you bridge the gap between

52:16

traditional therapy and alternative

52:18

healing practices and

52:20

you do that through facilitating

52:22

psychedelic exploration . Is that correct ? Yes , so I support

52:24

people in their journeys facilitating psychedelic exploration . Is that correct

52:27

?

52:28

Yes , so I support people in their

52:30

journeys and again , I just because this is a

52:32

very sensitive topic I just have to say

52:34

you know , people obviously have to follow

52:36

whatever laws that are in their jurisdictions

52:39

and their country . So this is not me telling

52:41

people that they should do psychedelics , but

52:43

I think I create awareness

52:45

around potential harm reduction

52:47

but also the potential benefit of

52:50

something that is coming out a lot of very

52:52

exciting and very , very encouraging

52:54

research at the moment that seem to have

52:56

a lot of application , and they're even doing research

52:59

into how psychedelics can be used in couples

53:01

therapy and the initial research is very

53:03

, very optimistic yes

53:05

, and you know , I've been hearing a lot about psychedelics

53:07

now for a couple of years and I

53:10

know very little about it .

53:12

So how would you explain

53:14

what psychedelics are ?

53:18

So this is a really good question

53:20

because there's so much misunderstanding around

53:22

this . Psychedelics is what's

53:24

called a neurological enhancer , and

53:26

that might , for a lot of people , be . What is he talking about

53:29

? So , basically , it does a couple

53:31

of things , or most psychedelics does this , which

53:33

is why they have so incredible

53:35

potential . So there's one part

53:38

of your brain referred to as a default mode

53:40

network , and what this is is your sense

53:42

of ego , but also your construct of identity

53:45

, and this is a part that decides what

53:47

it allowed to come through to your awareness . What

53:49

is not allowed right , and basically

53:51

what happens is pretty much every

53:53

mental health condition , from depression

53:56

, from anxiety , from OCD

53:58

, etc . Etc . Addiction

54:00

is that become a rigidity of

54:02

the mind . The mind become very rigid in how

54:05

it can see the world right Because

54:07

of these construct of this is who I am

54:09

, this idea that I am , this

54:11

, I'm a man , I'm this color , all these

54:13

identities right , can keep us

54:15

very , very stuck , and it tends to also be what's

54:17

caused conflict . Actually , a really interesting

54:20

research study was done with Israelis and Palestinians

54:22

and they gave them an awaska

54:24

ceremony and in the beginning

54:27

these people couldn't stand each other . At

54:29

the end of it , afterwards , all that

54:31

monosity has gone away because

54:34

this construct of you're Israeli , I

54:36

am Jew , etc . Or

54:38

Palestinian , all these identities

54:40

of countries , of race , of religion just

54:42

disappeared because they are formed

54:44

in this part of the brain and held there . So

54:46

when that shuts down , we can suddenly

54:48

see new flexibilities , new options

54:51

. We can interpret ourself and other people

54:53

in a new way . So all these fearful constructs

54:55

we talked about , with attachment , styles that we

54:58

interpret the world through , they

55:00

can be shut down for a while and suddenly

55:02

we can see maybe he didn't mean

55:04

to do this , maybe he didn't do this because he doesn't

55:06

care . It opens up the mind

55:08

and then the rest of the brain have this emotional

55:11

interconnectedness that we don't see

55:13

. That allow us to access new possibilities

55:16

right , which is incredible , and it also

55:18

lower the fear response in the brain

55:20

. But what it does at the same time

55:22

is it create neuroplasticity

55:25

and neurogenesis , and what that means is it

55:27

actually create new cell growths in the

55:29

brain and new connections between

55:31

cells very , very rapidly , and

55:34

we have a lot of this as children , and

55:36

then it becomes less and less with age

55:38

, but for a period , after taking psychedelics

55:40

, this growth in the brain is really

55:43

exponentially and it's almost , I say

55:45

, like imagine being a child for

55:47

a little while , which is also why it's super

55:49

important when doing this that people don't just

55:51

do it at random places somewhere , because

55:54

that can be harmful and if they don't know

55:56

how to integrate it it can be very overwhelming

55:58

. But done with the right person in

56:00

the right setting and with the right integration

56:03

, this allows us almost to restructure

56:05

the brain right and reconstruct

56:07

some of these things that weren't integrated well

56:09

if people had trauma or other things , which

56:12

is why it's showing so promising results

56:14

.

56:15

Have you worked with couples who

56:18

have taken psychedelics together ? And

56:20

when you're taking a psychedelic , do you have to set

56:22

an intention of what you want to work through

56:24

, or is it more spontaneous

56:27

?

56:28

so I , because it's not

56:30

legal in the uk , I haven't been able

56:32

to work where I was doing

56:34

it administrated to couples . But yes , I had

56:36

couples that have taken mdma

56:39

um , obviously at their

56:41

own risk , etc . And I

56:43

can obviously try and advise them of ways to

56:45

you can do testing and other things to try

56:47

and make sure it's as safe as possible , right and

56:50

ways to do it , things you have to go through

56:52

checks beforehand , how

56:54

you prepare a certain setting . But

56:56

yes , and I have seen how it can be

56:58

so profound , because especially

57:00

MDMA , which is slightly different actually

57:03

to the other psychedelics , because while

57:05

the psychedelic experience we talked about primarily

57:08

are things that happen with magic mushrooms , with lsd

57:11

, with ayahuasca , but these

57:13

ego dissolutions or where

57:15

suddenly that default mode network shut down and

57:17

you can see everything totally different . It's

57:19

not necessarily what happened on mdma and

57:22

you don't tend to have hallucinations or anything

57:24

like that . You're more present with MDMA , which

57:26

is why it can be good in that context

57:29

, as people can then still actually communicate

57:31

, which can be very difficult . If you're on psilocybin

57:33

, magic mushrooms , right , you're normally

57:35

not in a state where you can communicate well with others

57:37

. On MDMA you can . What MDMA

57:40

does is that when couples

57:42

come in and they're really struggling , their

57:44

fear response is heightened . They're now seeing

57:46

their partner as a threat , right , meaning

57:49

it's very difficult to get through to each other

57:51

. When you're perceiving the other one as being a threat

57:53

, right , it's very hard to hear each

57:55

other . What MDMA does is

57:57

it lower the amygdala . It

58:00

really shuts down that response

58:02

, which is the fear response , right , and

58:04

suddenly it becomes possible to hear each

58:06

other in a way that has almost been impossible

58:08

to . For suddenly somebody who a very

58:11

avoidant person , who'd never been able to say

58:13

anything vulnerable can suddenly

58:15

express their emotions , really vulnerable

58:17

, and suddenly what it does

58:19

is it doesn't fix everything , but it

58:21

suddenly give people a felt experience

58:24

again , not a cognitive thought , but a felt

58:26

experience . This is too

58:28

, and we did this and we

58:30

were okay , and that creates a framework

58:33

for how they can do things differently . It doesn't mean

58:35

people should continue to take MDMA

58:37

right , it shouldn't be a substitute

58:39

to make the relationship work , but it's

58:41

just a gateway where the mind again

58:43

has been so stuck right To

58:45

see , actually this is possible too .

58:48

Thank you for sharing that , and can

58:50

you just you know talk about some of the risks

58:52

and what people need to think about

58:54

or consider before embarking

58:56

on a psychedelic experience ?

58:59

And this is a great question and

59:01

, of course , the different compounds have different

59:03

safety profiles . I

59:06

think , overall , psychedelics

59:08

are really really safe and that's

59:10

what the research has shown us , done in the right

59:12

way , the right set and setting . However

59:15

, that doesn't mean harm can't happen

59:17

. So MDMA , like we talked about before

59:19

, can cause change in temperature

59:22

, for example . But

59:25

it's important to say that the people who tend to

59:27

be harmed are primarily either

59:29

they mix things up , meaning

59:31

they mix with different compounds that shouldn't be

59:33

mixed , maybe they're out taking alcohol and then

59:36

take mdma . So there are certain

59:38

mixtures that certainly can be dangerous , right

59:40

, and and we have had people dying from that

59:42

it's very rare , but it has happened

59:44

so it's when people do these things very not

59:47

carefully , right . So there's a physiological

59:49

risk in people taking MDMA . They

59:51

might go out , they dance again . When people do

59:53

it not in a very conscious way and

59:55

they forget to drink water , that has also

59:57

caused , again , not many , but a few deaths

1:00:00

, right . Or people drink too much . So

1:00:02

this is again tend to be when people do it in an unsafe

1:00:05

setting , right . These are not

1:00:07

meant to be taken as something that you

1:00:09

go out and just do a party with , even though

1:00:11

that's primarily where they become used

1:00:13

and that's also what then happened when they became illegal

1:00:16

. Right , even though they can have huge potential

1:00:18

therapeutic benefits , but

1:00:21

done in a safe setting , it's extremely risk

1:00:23

or safe . So if

1:00:25

we look at magic mushroom psilocybin , there

1:00:27

had not been a single reported case of people

1:00:30

dying from taking psilocybin . It's

1:00:32

almost impossible to overdose

1:00:34

. You'll get sick just from eating before

1:00:36

you can overdose . However , there's

1:00:38

a risk of psychological harm

1:00:40

, right , and that is definitely

1:00:42

real . So you know , with some

1:00:44

very strong , strong compounds , like what part

1:00:46

of the active ingredients in ayahuasca is called

1:00:48

dmt . People smoke dmt

1:00:51

and it can literally in 15

1:00:53

seconds so quickly skyrocket

1:00:55

into a different universe , almost like

1:00:57

you are god in in right , and

1:01:00

that can be so overwhelming for people and

1:01:02

especially done in an unsafe setting

1:01:04

, like out in a party and you

1:01:06

have no integration , you don't know what to expect

1:01:08

. That can be harmful and that can

1:01:10

take . Sometimes I heard stories and

1:01:12

even a friend who took years to come

1:01:14

back , but it's because it's done in

1:01:17

frankly stupid ways . It is really stupid

1:01:19

to do it in this way . It's not done in

1:01:21

a safe way . Psilocybin again

1:01:23

very safe if done in the right way . In

1:01:25

the research studies . I think out of

1:01:27

was it 25 000 , but however many

1:01:30

, there's been thousands of participants and

1:01:32

there was one person one person

1:01:34

who had a very adverse psychological , but

1:01:36

the other ones showed , you know , fantastic

1:01:39

benefits . And that's because it's done in

1:01:41

a really safe way . There's a preparation

1:01:43

phase . They tell people what to expect

1:01:45

. They build trust with the therapists that are going to be there . Normally there's a preparation phase . They tell people what to expect . They

1:01:47

build trust with the therapists that are going to be there . Normally there's two therapists

1:01:50

present , a man and a woman of each gender

1:01:52

. Right , they prepare specific

1:01:54

music . It's not done with any other

1:01:56

people around or unsafe elements . Right

1:01:59

, they make sure that everything is there

1:02:01

snacks , water , everything that's

1:02:03

required . Right , they're literally sitting

1:02:05

there just to help you . That's their only task

1:02:07

. And also , psilocybin

1:02:10

comes on a bit slower , so it takes about

1:02:12

. It's not like smoking DMT . It takes about

1:02:14

half an hour to an hour . So

1:02:16

that means it's a slow , gradual . It doesn't

1:02:19

just send you in to complete obliviation

1:02:21

, right . And again then they

1:02:23

provide therapy as well afterwards

1:02:25

, right , so afterwards you're not left alone , maybe

1:02:28

struggling to make sense of what happened , because

1:02:31

it can be overwhelming on higher doses to

1:02:33

suddenly lose a sense of identity . That can

1:02:35

certainly be scary . Right , it has a

1:02:37

possibility to restructure your personality

1:02:40

. And I think people should always ask

1:02:42

is the benefit bigger

1:02:44

than the potential risk with

1:02:46

anything they do ? Right , and

1:02:48

I would always say even in places where

1:02:50

it's legal and people can do that , ask

1:02:53

yourself first is there other ways I could

1:02:55

do that ? I remember I had someone

1:02:57

, a friend , a female friend come

1:02:59

and say oh Thomas , I had this breakup

1:03:01

, I'm feeling really bad . He just

1:03:03

broke up a week ago . I'm

1:03:05

feeling a bit sad . Should I take psychedelics

1:03:07

? I said absolutely not . Grieving a

1:03:10

long-term partner is a healthy

1:03:12

response and it's a natural process

1:03:15

. Psychedelic isn't meant to be used

1:03:17

to disassociate or not feel

1:03:19

right or not go

1:03:21

through natural processes . So that

1:03:23

was not an adequate place to use psychedelics

1:03:25

. And I would normally say have you tried other things

1:03:28

? Have you tried therapy ? Have you tried X , y and

1:03:30

Z ? And if people come to a place where

1:03:32

they really haven't , there is no

1:03:34

other way out for them and they're in severe

1:03:36

distress , then it might be something worth

1:03:38

considering . Right , because the benefit probably

1:03:41

is much higher at that stage than the potential

1:03:44

risk at

1:03:47

that stage and the potential risk .

1:03:48

Thank you , I feel like that was a great barometer that you set

1:03:50

out there . You know , do the risks

1:03:52

outweigh the benefits or

1:03:54

the benefits outweigh the risks ? Doing

1:03:57

research , making sure you're in the right

1:03:59

environment with the right practitioner

1:04:01

and also , you

1:04:03

know , not just taking it to

1:04:05

numb yourself , because you're probably going to

1:04:07

feel a lot more when

1:04:10

you take psychedelics . So thank you for that . That's

1:04:12

very interesting . I want to ask

1:04:14

you about your podcast Exploring

1:04:17

Humanity . Why did you

1:04:19

create it and what is it about ?

1:04:21

So the podcast is primarily about

1:04:23

well , I guess in the title , exploring

1:04:25

the human experience , right is primarily about , well , I guess , in the title , exploring

1:04:27

the human experience , right , and it's looking

1:04:29

at the different elements of how we experience a world

1:04:32

and , more importantly , how we as humans process

1:04:35

what we experience , because that had always really

1:04:37

really fascinated me . Because we never

1:04:39

experience what is . We

1:04:42

experience the interpretation of

1:04:44

what is , even the construct of

1:04:46

color . They're just different spectrum of

1:04:48

light . But color only exists

1:04:50

and happens when it gets interpreted

1:04:52

right For the lens of your eye

1:04:54

and for your brain . Your visual spectrum then

1:04:56

creates it into different colors , right

1:04:59

, same with smell . So

1:05:01

it's a brain that create the construct of what

1:05:03

this is , but it's also the brain that limits

1:05:06

what we can experience

1:05:08

in this construct right , because we are

1:05:10

only allowed to experience with the the limitation

1:05:12

of the senses that we have . So

1:05:14

I think once we understand how we process

1:05:17

the world , it becomes much easier

1:05:19

to not be so rigid in

1:05:21

how we interpret the world and actually

1:05:24

recognizing that the way we see the world

1:05:26

might not be the correct way

1:05:28

. And that's also a beautiful way that I've

1:05:30

seen through psychedelics and that I explore on the

1:05:32

podcast is this flexibility

1:05:34

of mind what they categorize . They call it openness

1:05:37

Meaning I noticed after my

1:05:39

psychedelic experience I became so much

1:05:41

more open to other people's perspective

1:05:44

before I would get quite oh , I

1:05:46

know better , I'm the expert and I didn't like

1:05:48

when people didn't have the same opinion . Now

1:05:51

it doesn't bother me anymore . Right

1:05:53

, and that's something I really noticed changed

1:05:55

after my psychedelic experience , this sense of

1:05:57

openness . So I think the podcast is

1:05:59

really about that understanding

1:06:06

. How do we process this experience ?

1:06:07

we call life , and what impact does that have on us ? That's beautiful . I

1:06:09

think you're definitely speaking my language

1:06:11

and you know I'm

1:06:14

really a big believer that we all have

1:06:16

a piece to the puzzle , a

1:06:18

piece of the truth , but not the whole truth

1:06:20

. And to your point about

1:06:22

the different color spectrums

1:06:25

and how we see it and how our brain interprets

1:06:27

it , someone could be looking at the

1:06:30

same type of blue but see a completely

1:06:32

different shade , or a shade that

1:06:34

we may not have any sort of

1:06:36

perception of . So it's very

1:06:38

interesting to kind of see how everyone

1:06:41

else is viewing their own

1:06:43

reality right , because

1:06:45

we're all on the same earth but

1:06:47

we have different perceptions

1:06:50

of our day-to-day lives , which is

1:06:52

very fascinating and

1:06:54

kind of takes me out of this black

1:06:57

and white sort of thinking . I

1:06:59

feel like there's so much gray , and

1:07:01

the gray is in the

1:07:04

shared experiences other people have that we are not able

1:07:06

to , or the experiences other people have that we are not able to , or the experiences

1:07:08

other people have that we're not able to perceive

1:07:10

. So that's really amazing

1:07:12

. That's beautiful . You've dropped

1:07:15

so much wisdom throughout

1:07:17

the podcast , but I always have to ask for

1:07:19

final words of wisdom to the listeners

1:07:21

. It could be about everything we've

1:07:23

been talking about . It could be related to that or

1:07:25

something completely different that you kind of keep

1:07:28

in your back pocket .

1:07:30

I think it would be

1:07:32

the acknowledgement and acceptance

1:07:34

that we need other humans . We

1:07:37

live in a world that glorify individuality

1:07:39

, but it's not how we were meant to

1:07:42

function and that's why so many people

1:07:44

are not functioning well and struggling

1:07:46

, accepting that it's

1:07:48

okay to need others and it's actually

1:07:50

how we are wired .

1:07:53

Beautiful . Where can people find you

1:07:55

if they want to learn more about your work

1:07:57

, if they want to work with you or if

1:07:59

they want to listen to your podcast ?

1:08:02

Of course , we can probably put the links in the

1:08:04

description , because there's a few different ones

1:08:06

right . So I do so much . I do my

1:08:08

ecstatic dances , I do my therapy

1:08:10

, couples therapy that's

1:08:12

a podcast . There's psychedelicmedicineearth

1:08:15

, which is if people want information around that

1:08:17

. So you know , maybe we put the links

1:08:19

and people can just go to check out

1:08:21

whatever they're interested in .

1:08:23

Absolutely . I'm going to put all of the links to your websites

1:08:26

and social media handles in the

1:08:28

show notes for people to check out . But , thomas

1:08:30

, thank you so much for stopping by the

1:08:32

show . This was an amazing conversation

1:08:34

. It's been my pleasure and great

1:08:36

questions that you

1:08:39

asked , by the way , at

1:08:42

A Word to the Wise Pod , we're

1:08:44

also on YouTube at A Word to the

1:08:46

Wise Podcast . Please be

1:08:48

sure to subscribe If you are

1:08:50

enjoying the show . Please rate , leave

1:08:53

a review , share and subscribe

1:08:55

wherever you listen to podcasts . Till

1:08:57

next time , peace and love , always

1:09:01

, always

1:09:04

, always .