0:00

This episode of Beyond the Balls is

0:02

proudly sponsored by Bambi Minico. We'd

0:05

like to recognise the traditional peoples of

0:08

this country and acknowledge the traditional owners

0:10

of this land, the Iroquois people of

0:12

the Bundjalung Nation, on which this podcast

0:14

was recorded and who have been parenting

0:16

and raising children here for many thousands

0:19

of years before we did. Hey,

0:25

legends. Welcome

0:28

to Beyond the Balls, a podcast brought

0:30

to you by Jade Caldwell and Chi

0:32

Lo, a Beyond the Bump production. This

0:35

podcast is targeted at dads, dads-to-be, their

0:37

partners and anyone keen on a listen.

0:40

Our aim is to entertain, educate and

0:42

empower, and we promise to be open,

0:44

honest and have real discussions in the

0:47

hope you leave feeling lighter and more

0:49

supported after each listen. We

0:51

might not always get it right. Our aim is not

0:53

to be perfect, but to be good enough. Hey,

0:57

guys, welcome to the Beyond the Balls

0:59

podcast. We have some amazing guests

1:01

today. The reason that we have this podcast

1:03

is because we want to create resources and

1:05

support for dads who want to be the

1:07

best father they can be. And

1:10

we all know that's every single dad out there. So

1:12

today I have the amazing Dr Andy Pickering

1:14

and Brian E. Kern. I'll throw it over

1:16

to you guys if you could just take

1:19

a moment to introduce yourselves. Hi, well, I'm

1:21

Andy Pickering. I'm an obstetrician in the northern

1:23

beaches of Sydney. I work primarily in private

1:25

practice across the northern beaches. And

1:28

my patients come from

1:30

the northern beaches, but I'll deliver the northern beaches

1:32

on the north shore across the lower north shore.

1:34

How long have you been an obstetrician for? So

1:37

it's very hard. It depends on when

1:39

you define when does when does starting being an obstetrician

1:41

start. And I think I finished med school in the

1:43

year 2000. I did an

1:45

internship for a year and then pretty much started

1:47

obstetric training at that point. Well, that'll do. Yeah.

1:50

So I started training for that long. I've

1:52

been delivering babies less by that way for

1:54

over 20 years. I took a

1:56

short hiatus in the middle and became a lawyer

1:58

defending Dr Zard. I'll talk about

2:00

that another time. Wow. Oh

2:03

my God, what a turn. It's like, oh yeah,

2:05

just while I'm being a doctor, I'll be a

2:07

lawyer. That's stunning. We need to know more about

2:10

that, but we'll continue. The professional term

2:12

is overachiever, I think, right? Yeah.

2:14

And Brian is the midwife that works

2:16

in my private practice and also as

2:18

a delivery suite midwife at one

2:20

of the hospitals I deliver at. Amazing.

2:22

So I guess what we wanted to talk to

2:24

you guys about today is the

2:27

whole importance of being a great

2:29

birth partner. And I

2:31

know just to set the scene for

2:33

everyone, I was lucky enough to have

2:35

Dr. Pickering and Brian as our dedicated

2:38

help when we had our two sons.

2:40

And they were an absolutely amazing

2:42

resource, so much so that I wanted to get

2:45

them on so that we could

2:47

pretty much avail their knowledge to

2:49

every single person listening in, because

2:51

it's such an incredibly valuable resource,

2:53

one that I know I was

2:55

incredibly lucky to have that I really

2:57

think people could get a lot out of. And

3:00

to that point, a couple of questions. Sorry,

3:02

Andy, how many babies do you think you've delivered?

3:04

And Brian, you too. What do you think, Brian?

3:07

So I don't know how

3:09

many babies I've actually delivered. Working

3:12

in the public system in the UK, I

3:14

obviously technically did a lot more births. But

3:16

since I've been in the private system in

3:18

Sydney for over 10 years, I've

3:21

witnessed hundreds and hundreds

3:23

of births. And

3:27

I guess for me, I deliver around 200

3:29

babies a year. I'm

3:32

just a bit short. And

3:35

I don't do more than 20 in a month

3:37

because I have a big focus on

3:39

low intervention. I'm just taking a

3:41

look at birth, where the birth

3:43

partners have sort of the biggest influence, really,

3:45

in their sort of circumstances. But

3:48

before that, through the public system, I'd

3:50

be a few thousand. I remember once

3:52

as a final year trainee, one of

3:54

the patients saying to me, no

3:57

disrespect, you're the trainee. But how many seasons have

3:59

you done? And she was waiting for her

4:01

to have a seat. And I said, oh,

4:03

that's interesting. How many is enough? Wow.

4:07

Wow. Probably about 60. And

4:09

I said, well, that's a good job, because about 15 years

4:11

ago, I probably stopped counting at 100. Wow.

4:14

Right. Well, today we want to keep

4:16

it simple. The reason we want to

4:18

keep it simple is because we know

4:20

there's a lot of information there for

4:23

women, for moms to be. Look, I

4:25

think me being a mom myself, I

4:27

looked at every book. I was into

4:29

every podcast, weren't around when I was

4:32

giving birth at that time, but I

4:34

was into everything. And for

4:36

us, because this is really natured

4:38

and targeted at dads, we want

4:41

simple yet effective advice. We want to

4:43

know we're going to hit you with

4:45

some questions of really how to be

4:48

a great birth partner for our

4:50

partner. And to start

4:52

us off, I think the biggest

4:54

question is, what are

4:57

your roles? In the

4:59

birthing process? So I

5:02

would probably start off because I look

5:04

after women in labour in the hospital.

5:06

So I'm providing the care

5:08

throughout the labour and then say Andy

5:11

would be managing the labour. So if

5:13

there was any concerns, I communicate with

5:15

him. He'd make decisions with the women

5:18

whilst I'm there providing the care. And

5:20

then Andy comes in and is there

5:22

kind of for the second stage doing

5:24

the actual delivery of the baby. So

5:27

we have worked within a continuity model, so

5:29

we get a long time to build up

5:32

a relationship with the couple prior to that.

5:34

And you generally find in first pregnancies, most

5:37

of the visits, you'll get both mum

5:39

and dad there, maybe not all of

5:41

them, but you know, you'll

5:43

certainly get a good proportion of those and

5:45

you build up a relationship of trust across

5:48

that sort of period of time. Can you

5:50

only have an obstetrician

5:52

through the private health system

5:54

or can you have one

5:56

through the public? The public

5:59

health system. visit

8:00

with all my patients, it's like 36 weeks to

8:02

birth plan is because sometimes patients will ask questions

8:04

to Brian, they just don't feel that are important

8:07

enough to ask me. And it's

8:09

like, it's weird because, of course,

8:11

from my point of view, if it's a question, it's important

8:13

enough to ask. And it should always feel like that. But

8:15

it's nice that you open those doors and let other people

8:18

come through. So I get that quite a lot from patients

8:20

where the husband has said, you've talked

8:22

about this every night, but you don't

8:24

put it up in any single visit.

8:26

Yeah. How important is it to have

8:29

your birth partner with you at these

8:31

appointments? It's perfectly possible to

8:33

do your own change or care without your birth partner there

8:36

regularly. And it depends what sort of

8:38

person you are, you know, and I

8:40

think not everybody's fortunate enough to have

8:42

people that can make themselves available during

8:44

the day to come to visit. I

8:47

think, from my point of view,

8:49

if I was saying to my

8:51

patients, you know, which visits are really important

8:53

to come to, clearly the first visits, you

8:55

know, you want to build that relationship, start

8:58

off with, you know, you don't want your

9:00

partner to come back from her antenatal visit

9:03

and talk about somebody

9:05

in the abstract. It's nice to put a

9:07

face to it. Yeah. Yeah. Can I tell

9:09

you, I know the answer to the most

9:11

important one you should be at the most

9:13

important appointment. The birth? Yes, the birth. I

9:15

just wanted to say, I just want to

9:18

say, oh, you don't have to be there.

9:20

But it's not an appointment. It will happen

9:22

when it happens. Oh,

9:24

I was wrong. That is great. That

9:26

is great. Let's continue. OK, so in

9:29

that sense, it is an elective Caesar.

9:31

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Then

9:33

there's actually not much rock magic. And

9:37

so I completely I get that a partner

9:40

might not be lucky enough to be free

9:42

all the time. So switching it back to,

9:44

in that case, the birthing partner, what are

9:46

some good questions that dad should use if

9:49

he can't attend anything to still

9:51

form that relationship with you guys? Like, how

9:53

does he get involved in that antenatal

9:56

process without maybe

9:58

ever getting exposure? And this, therefore, a.

10:00

applies to anyone who doesn't have continuity.

10:02

Or does he have to be, like

10:04

do they have to get to know

10:06

you? Can they just have information and

10:08

enough information to go into that birth

10:10

with knowledge that they need? I don't

10:12

know, I think every couple's different as

10:14

the first thing and everything's different. You

10:16

know, they're all gonna function in different

10:18

ways. I think being interested

10:20

in what's happened at the appointment, so

10:23

if they've not managed to actually attend

10:25

that evening, ask questions about what happened

10:27

at the appointment, ask, say,

10:30

what did Andy say about this? Or

10:32

what about that? And just making them

10:34

feel involved in the pregnancy and not

10:36

the woman going through it and the

10:38

woman's on her own, making sure that

10:40

they seem interested in the appointment as

10:42

if they've not managed to attend themselves.

10:45

Yeah, I've got a patient at the moment that comes

10:47

with a list of questions, as a lot of patients

10:49

do, but she also has a couple of questions on

10:51

the end saying, these are my partner's questions. That's

10:54

great. That's great. Well, it's

10:56

funny because actually they usually bring her a lot of

10:58

interesting things and she's almost, feels like she's asking, telling

11:00

me that their partner's question because she doesn't think she

11:02

should ask the great deal. Yeah.

11:05

And usually gets a lot of information

11:07

out that she's actually interested in. So,

11:09

Briny, tell us in the amount of

11:11

births that you've witnessed, what

11:13

do you see birth partners

11:15

do that really help the

11:17

mother? What's going on

11:19

in that room? I guess just

11:22

being supportive and kind of reading

11:24

the situation. I

11:27

remember one dad was fast asleep in

11:29

the recliner chair. Was that my husband?

11:31

No, seriously. You have, was, were you

11:33

in my birth three times? The

11:36

mum was barfing in the

11:38

water, was completely silent. You

11:42

couldn't even tell she was having a contraction. And I kept

11:44

being like, do you need anything? Do you want me to

11:46

wake up? And she was like, it was her third baby.

11:48

And she was like, no, this is how I want to

11:51

do it. I just want to be in my zone in

11:54

the quiet, in peace. I want him out

11:56

of the room. Why was he even there then? He

12:00

was obviously there for the final bit of the birth,

12:02

but that was how she labored. She just wanted to

12:04

be... Yeah, right. Okay. ...whilst

12:06

other people need the constant reassurance. They want the

12:09

touch, they want the massage, they want someone to

12:11

be giving them a sense of water and saying,

12:13

do you need anything? And it's just reading what

12:15

you need at that time. And that changes throughout

12:17

labor as well. Some people want the massage and

12:20

want to be touched. Yeah, then they don't. You

12:22

want to get away from me, I don't want

12:24

to hear your voice. It's

12:26

knowing what's appropriate and how to provide support

12:28

at that time. I guess that's the

12:30

same for us as well. The same

12:33

things that are important to

12:35

make a good birth partner, the same things that make good

12:38

doctors and midwives. First

12:40

and primary is listening. Yeah,

12:43

communication. Listening is not on. It's going on.

12:46

It's a common thread in this podcast. It's not on after. It's

12:48

the same thing with birth plans. Is

12:51

there any plan it's going to have to be

12:53

fluid and the same happens with the partner? And

12:55

sometimes, you know, you do occasionally get partners who

12:57

have read every book and they determine that the

13:00

birth is going to go this way. Yeah.

13:04

And that doesn't necessarily help when you realize

13:06

that the circumstances are different. It

13:08

may be what his wife or his partner said

13:11

six months ago, but it's not necessarily what

13:14

is happening at this point. And I

13:17

think Brian is saying, you know, reading the room

13:19

is the most important thing. And in the end,

13:21

there's nobody in that room that knows the

13:24

birthing mother better. You know,

13:26

so helping helping us understand what she

13:28

wants, helping that sort of stuff and

13:30

helping that circumstances. And like Brian was

13:33

saying, in that situation where a patient

13:35

is in the bath completely silent, you

13:37

know, and laboring really, really well, if

13:40

I go into the room, I'll often not say a single

13:42

word. I walk in and say what's going on and walk

13:44

out going, well, that's what's going well. I don't need me

13:46

to chip in. And the same can happen for

13:48

the partner as well. Equally, we've

13:51

got a partner that, you know, that

13:53

is required was to fan the all

13:55

the way through the back, wasn't it?

13:59

Wow. Must be nice. I'm surprised I've raised half

14:01

a chair as chips. I don't know, yeah, the ice chips

14:03

are a bit too cold. I hope they're not listening because

14:05

they're exactly who they are. Wait, isn't me? How

14:11

important is it to, you know, I

14:13

guess be a bit realistic

14:16

of our expectations coming into birth?

14:18

Because it is really nice to

14:20

have a birth plan of wonderful

14:22

music and I'm going to do

14:24

this and I'm going to do

14:26

that. I've had three children and

14:28

they haven't ever gone the

14:30

way that I have had it in my

14:32

head. And I think by the third child,

14:35

I did go in there going, you know

14:37

what, if I have an epidural and

14:39

I need one, I'm okay with that. I'm now going

14:41

to tell my husband, you're not going to go to

14:43

sleep on the chair because it really pisses me off.

14:45

But, you know, for the first and the second child,

14:47

I kind of just didn't tell him that. And

14:50

I kind of got an understanding of

14:52

what I really needed in those moments.

14:54

So do you think you need

14:57

to have these conversations, you know, well and

14:59

truly before you step into that room? Yeah,

15:01

I mean, that's why a lot of your

15:03

36-week appointment is a little and a lot

15:05

of the answer. I think an important phase,

15:07

you know, you're saying what's the most important

15:09

appointments to come to for a partner? The

15:12

most important thing probably for the partner to go to is

15:14

the antenatal classes. In

15:16

the end, you know, if we're strictly looking at,

15:19

you know, what are we doing in an antenatal

15:21

appointment? We're looking at pressure, we're looking at, you

15:23

know, urine, we're looking at the heart rate and

15:25

we're looking for growth and it's a medical appointment.

15:28

And yes, obviously we add in a lot of

15:30

the care factors to go with that as well.

15:32

But when it comes to sort of that

15:35

sort of detailed understanding

15:37

and timing and phases and

15:39

options, then antenatal classes do

15:41

an amazing job. It

15:43

helps the pair of you understand

15:47

what things are important to them. I

15:49

think like at least my

15:51

experience having had two working

15:53

with you guys, I think

15:55

the communication with your

15:58

wife just understand it. that

16:00

to your point, things never really go to

16:02

plan. Just like, what's

16:04

the ideal and where do you want

16:06

me to support you? And getting that

16:09

across is just so important before you

16:11

enter, because birth is beautiful,

16:13

but it is also very much like,

16:15

there's so much going on, right? So

16:17

a birthing partner in my mind always

16:20

just needs to be the champion, because

16:22

you know your partner the best. And if

16:24

they said, this is something that's really important

16:26

to me, it's kind of up to you

16:28

to advocate. Obviously not to the point where

16:30

it's would cause any kind of

16:32

issues, but like just get the vibe

16:35

from your partner. Like, you know, like, how do

16:37

you want this to go? And I'll do my

16:39

very best to achieve that with you. Can I

16:41

give a tip to every dad to be out

16:43

there? Don't let

16:46

the nurse or midwife dress

16:48

you up in the rubber gloves

16:50

and have fun with you while

16:53

your partner is having

16:56

contractions. That will

16:58

not go down well, ever, ever.

17:04

I had that happen to me and I

17:06

looked at that whole situation and I just

17:08

couldn't believe, like, oh, we're just trying to

17:10

make it funny for you. I'm like, you

17:12

look like you're all flirting with each other

17:14

and I look like I'm having a bowling

17:16

ball coming out of my head, out of

17:18

my vagina and nobody cares. So I'm like,

17:20

can we focus on who's screaming

17:23

and in pain right now? No, Brian,

17:25

it was great one time. Just funny

17:27

story about how the opposite Brian could

17:30

be, because you pulled me in a

17:32

line one time because Tagen was getting

17:34

epidural and my breathing

17:36

got faster and this very rarely happens, but I

17:38

started getting faint and Brian, he's turned around and

17:40

saw straight out of his head. He goes, you

17:43

sit down. If you pass out and knock your

17:45

head, you're going to emergency and you're useless to

17:47

all of us. Sit down, have a glass of

17:49

water. And I was just saying, yes, Brian. Is

17:51

this common for partners to do that? Yeah.

17:57

And they always try and be like the hero.

17:59

and to get through it and that makes the

18:01

whole situation worse. So I'm like, just sit down,

18:03

let the blood get back to your head and

18:06

then you'll be great whilst they try

18:08

and kind of persevere through and end

18:10

up on the floor. And actually, one

18:12

of our best partners, the woman was

18:14

having the lactoseurone section and

18:16

the partner knew he felt faint very easily.

18:19

So we'd taken a whole bag of jelly

18:21

beans in his paw ready in case he

18:23

felt faint. And before she'd

18:25

even gone into theater, they're in the

18:27

anesthetic bay and he almost fainted. So

18:29

they'd had to lie him on the

18:31

bed with that. And he

18:34

got this bag of jelly beans out, opened

18:36

it up and they went all over the

18:38

anesthetic. And

18:40

I was waiting for the cord to go to the

18:42

theater and I was like, why is it taking so

18:45

long? Oh my God. And they're picking up the jelly

18:47

beans. Wow.

18:49

Don't do that. No, don't do

18:52

that. We'll be back with more Beyond the

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Ball's goodness after this short break. All

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right, ballers, today, let's chat about the

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Mum. All right, no mucking around. Let's get back

20:57

to the show. And

21:00

sorry, I'm gonna talk about it. A nice

21:02

story, because it just occurred to me then,

21:04

but Andy, you said like a good way

21:06

a partner, a birth partner can help is

21:08

asking the questions that the birthing person is

21:10

unwilling to ask. So I

21:13

remember this very keenly in that, taken

21:16

after our first had said to me, she

21:19

was disappointed because she was like, I didn't

21:21

get that bolt of love. And she said,

21:23

I've read about it and I've heard podcasts

21:25

and it's meant to be life-changing you, Foric.

21:27

I didn't get it. And she

21:29

always blamed herself because she thinks like

21:32

if I, and we've been open with

21:34

you guys about this. It

21:36

was a source of concern,

21:38

anxiety, and depressive for

21:40

her thinking. She's like, I failed because

21:42

it took a long time to birth our first.

21:45

She's like, she blamed herself for so many things.

21:47

And obviously in that state, it's really hard to

21:49

convince someone otherwise. So she had told

21:51

me her fear of like, what if I do it

21:53

again and I don't have that bolt of love ever?

21:56

Am I a bad mum? And I

21:58

remember raising this with you, Andy. Another

30:00

thing that I absolutely loved,

30:03

and look, this is different

30:05

to everyone that is pregnant

30:08

because sometimes you'd, like

30:10

you said, Bryony, sometimes they

30:12

want the ice chips, sometimes they don't want

30:14

the ice chips. Like it could be literally

30:16

30 seconds later, they're like, don't ever give

30:18

me those ice chips in my mouth again.

30:20

But I think that if you're kindly offering,

30:23

you know, you're there with the

30:25

ice chips and I think

30:27

less talk as a partner, just they're

30:30

there, right? Or a face cloth, you

30:32

try. If they nod their head, all

30:35

right, we're not gonna do that. You

30:37

know, give options of perhaps they'd like

30:39

an oil massage on the lower of

30:41

their hips, a midwife, a phenomenal midwife

30:43

with my middle child did this to

30:45

me. I decided the best

30:47

place that I could birth in the hospital

30:50

was in the closet. I like to be

30:52

like just tucked in, my head was in

30:54

the towels, I didn't wanna move from there.

30:57

And she just dimmed the lights, massaged

31:00

that area. And she said, sway your

31:02

hips to the, you know, the name

31:04

that you're gonna call your child, like

31:06

distracting me and keeping me in focus.

31:09

It was absolutely phenomenal. And these

31:11

things were, I don't

31:14

know, they're the positives that I took away

31:16

from my birth experience. I love

31:18

like, yeah, handle all the shit behind the scenes.

31:21

Cause as far as I know, through

31:23

my experiences, I know even if it's

31:25

an elective seizure, you

31:27

wanna preserve the flow of oxytocin

31:29

to promote everything and

31:32

protect that. So handle all your shit behind

31:34

the scenes and don't become part of the

31:36

scene. I remember someone told me that they're

31:38

like, they're in another world

31:41

when laboring or even like another

31:43

world of emotion leading

31:46

up to a elective seizure or an

31:48

emergency seizure. So don't take anything personally, it's

31:50

not about you. No. So like

31:52

to that point, like if someone goes, get those fucking

31:55

ice chips to buck away from me, don't

31:57

suddenly snap back. Like it's absolutely

31:59

possible.