0:03

Welcome to this podcast series asking the question Can

0:06

art save us? In this series I'm talking to artists, musicians,

0:12

filmmakers, actors, art lovers, and other creatives. I'm

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exploring how curiosity and courage not only creates great

0:20

art and fuels the arts, but cultivates a healthy mind too.

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The same attitudes are cultivated in mindfulness

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practice with scientific and evidence based results in the

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treatment of depression, stress and anxiety. So I'm asking, Can

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art save us and help change the global epidemic of mental

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illness? And my guest this week is Otis Mensah. He's the first

0:46

hip hop poet to be awarded a poet laureate title in the UK by

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the City of Sheffield. He has had numerous commissions and his

0:54

live performances include the Glastonbury Music Festival, Otis

0:58

describes his poetry as breaking down barriers, smashing the

1:02

stuffy stereotype and reminding people that poetry is meant to

1:06

be for the people. He could also be described as the most

1:10

courageously vulnerable artist of the 21st century. Hello,

1:16

Otis, and welcome. Hi, thank you so much for having me and for the intro.

1:23

You're very welcome. It's just been phenomenal reading your

1:26

work your poetry, looking at your performances. It's quite

1:32

astonishing, actually, the the breadth and wealth of your work

1:36

already, what I was interested in, just to begin with is when

1:41

you discovered your love for poetic vulnerability where this

1:45

all began? Yeah, sure. So I think the journey really began for me as a

1:52

teenager, I was looking for some sort of expressionistic outlet,

1:56

sort of dealing with the existential angst that you do as

2:00

a teenager. And sort of quarrel and wrestles with identity. And

2:07

I think wanting to sort of grow into my own skin and understand

2:11

what it was that I was interested in, want, wanted to

2:14

understand what art spoke for me. And what what I gravitated

2:18

towards, naturally as a sort of intuition, I guess, visceral

2:23

based thing. And I started to, I don't know, experiment, I

2:29

started to write raps with, with friends in the school yard. And

2:32

it was very fun, it was very useful. It felt meaningful. But

2:36

I did notice that I believe I was injecting my own sort of

2:41

insecurities into my art form, especially as it surrounded my

2:45

peers. And I guess what I saw at the time as sort of like, a

2:50

shield of pretense sort of continued. And I realized that

2:54

what I needed in terms of being able to express myself freely

2:59

and I guess, to sort of lifted the burden of, of whatever it

3:03

was that I was going through, I needed some form of honesty,

3:06

some form of radical honesty, and I might not have had the

3:08

words in the canon to verbalize that at the time. But I think me

3:15

falling in love with hip hop music and hip hop poetry, really

3:19

spoke volumes for saying that that's what I needed. And I got

3:25

into hip hop artists like the roots. I got into hip hop

3:28

artists like Kid Curry, who notoriously spoke openly about

3:32

depression and anxiety, and perhaps feeling a little like a

3:38

social pariah amongst their peers, especially in a landscape

3:42

that Cody, especially in a landscape that didn't really

3:48

allow him to do that. I think a lot of his peers weren't really,

3:52

I guess, engaging in that level of vulnerability that he was. So

3:56

that sort of stood out as a testament for me and, and sort

3:59

of allowed me to see that, oh, you can, it can be cool to be

4:03

honest and open and vulnerable. And not only can it be cool, but

4:07

it can also have a radical impact on your on your own

4:10

mental health and on your own artistry, you know.

4:14

Yeah, absolutely. It's really interesting, how we can change

4:20

meanings. So taking vulnerability, as an example.

4:25

You know, when actually it's relationship is is so connected

4:31

to courage. But there are problems around identity,

4:36

particularly, I think, with the model of masculinity, where

4:39

courage is always around bravery and not expressing emotions,

4:43

because that would be a sign of weakness, for example. So what

4:48

kinds of identity tensions Do you think you were struggling

4:52

with when you were growing up? Um, what kind of identity type tension? That's a big

5:01

existential question. I think, yeah. Yeah, there was a lot of

5:07

tensions around sort of not being caught not feeling

5:11

comfortable in my own skin. I think I was naturally an

5:16

introvert in perhaps a world that tells you, you know,

5:21

introversion is weird, or, you know, it's like, it's not the

5:26

normal thing to do. I think I also had a slightly different, I

5:32

guess, passions, some slightly different passions than the

5:37

people around me. I think a lot of my passions became hyper

5:42

specific. So when I found something that I loved, like hip

5:44

hop music, I focus really into it. And sometimes that can make

5:49

it hard to to sort of step outside of that and relate on a

5:53

social level. I think also, my natural inclination was to sort

5:56

of isolate myself and I guess be be more creative on my own, as

6:01

opposed to engaging in sort of, like typical social settings. So

6:06

I think that there on the surface definitely created some

6:10

sort of, I don't know, social tension, or sort of some sort of

6:17

otherness. And then, of course, you know, like, growing up as a

6:22

black mixed race person in, in the UK, I was wrestling with,

6:27

with racialization, and overing. And, and all that sort of mixed

6:33

in a pot together. Where Hip Hop really did allow me to find

6:37

solace in that hip hop really gave me a language to sort of

6:41

understand my own state of existence. So yeah, yeah, I

6:46

think I think that that transitional point, as a

6:50

teenager into early adulthood, was really impactful for me as I

6:54

started to discover the art and delve into it in more depth.

6:59

And was that the shift from where you talk about feeling

7:05

like an outcast? Yeah, I mean, you know, what I think perhaps happened is that

7:15

it took a lot of the tension of having an art form that I could

7:18

relate to took a lot of the tension of that which not only

7:22

meant that I could sort of hadn't, like I said, have a have

7:27

a language and to understand what was going on

7:31

around me politically, socially. And what I felt politically and

7:34

socially, even, even on a surface level, even though it

7:37

was the, the sowing of those seeds, perhaps not in depth, but

7:43

not only did Hip Hop do that for me, but it also allowed me to

7:48

understand that it wasn't. So it wasn't so peculiar, that I was

7:53

interested in the things that I was interested in that I was

7:56

that I felt the way that I felt. And perhaps there was reasons,

7:59

societal reasons to why I felt like that. So and I think I

8:03

think what it what it made me do is feel less so like an outcast

8:07

in the end, and maybe made me feel like I had a sense of

8:10

community that perhaps wasn't bound by by geography, and the

8:16

social geography, but perhaps was bound by something a little

8:19

more metaphysical. And something that could sort of like trans

8:23

transcend borders, as I started to engage with all across the

8:27

globe, across Europe, across the internet. And yeah, it made me

8:31

feel less alone. So in turn, it allowed me to function better

8:36

with my, my peers, it allowed me to function better in, in, in

8:39

school, which is why often I advocate for poetry as a form of

8:45

thing as a form of engagement that can sort of, you know, help

8:51

towards a flourishing emotional intelligence on a flourishing I

8:56

guess, emotional understanding of oneself and, and once society

9:02

and social landscape just because I think it gives us a

9:06

second to understand to, I guess, value ourselves and our

9:12

and our thoughts as individuals in a way that society doesn't

9:15

really give us a chance to, you know, everything is so fast in

9:18

this sort of capitalist A is that we never really get a

9:21

second to process emotions. So when poetry allows for that

9:25

space, I think a lot of sort of metamorphosis can begin.

9:30

Yeah, because I've seen that you've also described yourself

9:34

as an advocate of patience and sifting through the noise. With

9:39

that relate to the kind of message you're getting across.

9:45

Yeah, I think I think that's that's, that's very much what

9:48

what I intended to touch on is this idea that capitalism just

9:53

doesn't really allow for that our, our state of existence in

9:57

this world that we're in right now, just doesn't really allow

10:00

allow for us to process emotions, it doesn't really

10:02

allow for us to maybe even sit with sit with our, our traumas

10:08

or you know, it's like things that I have grown to call

10:11

everyday traumas. And the reason I call them everyday traumas is

10:14

because society forces us to sort of skip past them so, so

10:18

quickly and so. So hurry hurriedly. So I think art allows

10:25

for a space for us to recognize that and perhaps start to think

10:29

about, well, what impact did societies, societies voice have a

10:38

sort of what what impact did society's voice have on my

10:40

psyche? On my emotional well being? And how is that impacted

10:45

my life? And how can I change that? If I want to change that?

10:48

Or how can I just grow to understand it? You know?

10:51

Yeah, I think what you call unadulterated honesty, is seems

10:58

to be really core to, to how you write, and you're quite

11:03

prepared, it seems to have that exposure, which is an act of

11:09

bravery. Because that's a hard thing to do, isn't it?

11:14

Yeah, it's definitely a hard thing to do, I think I'm perhaps

11:18

lucky in the sense that the art form that I fell in love with

11:24

naturally pushed me to be to be as open as possible naturally

11:29

pushed me to be as vulnerable as possible, because it was about

11:34

sharing your unique experience of the world, you know, and, and

11:38

I think what what happens is, when we do I don't know what

11:42

what I like to call, I don't know, some sort of introspective

11:46

excavation, or some sort of deep dive within what we find is our

11:51

true, unique experience of the world and of perception and

11:55

reality. Not to say that, I don't think it doesn't have its

12:01

dangers, you know, I think, you know, sometimes it can be, it

12:07

can be way more valid, and way more sort of wise to, to go into

12:12

those deep, vulnerable feelings in your own time, whilst not

12:16

pushing them to create a product, whether that's a piece

12:19

of poetry for art's sake, or whether it's for, you know, from

12:24

societal pressure to do so. But I think it's about what feels

12:28

right to you and nurturing, nurturing the best way that you

12:33

can feel open and vulnerable and honest with yourself and not

12:37

feel pressurized, you know? Yeah, because when you talk about that deep dive, that

12:44

process, if you like, of self reflection, sometimes it's

12:48

talked about, you know, in mindfulness practice, but that,

12:52

that chance you have that deep dive is also a chance, just to

12:57

simply be curious. And even that act of curiosity is healthy, did

13:04

you find that? Your curiosity of words is immense? So did you

13:10

find that you kind of allowed yourself to be in that space? It

13:14

was therapeutic in some way?

13:18

Yeah, that's such a great question. I mean, I believe my

13:22

my curiosity for language is, it's an interesting one. It's

13:29

paradoxical, and it's full of nuance. I grew up in a very

13:34

faith based background, I grew up in the church. And I grew up

13:37

having to read the Bible in or having the Bible biblical

13:41

scripture, Scripture read to me. And what that does, in a way is

13:47

give somebody who is younger, who perhaps doesn't have a grasp

13:50

of certain metaphorical imagery or certain vocabulary, it puts

13:55

it puts the vocabulary in their face, and, and it shows them

13:59

that there is an emotional impact to the language without

14:02

there having to always be a logical, theoretical impact. You

14:07

know, I think about like the church setting when something is

14:10

said that perhaps I didn't have a logical grasp on in terms of

14:15

its vocabulary, I still noticed that there was an emotional

14:18

impact of it. And I think that was the same for the

14:20

congregation. If the pastor was to read a biblical scripture,

14:24

that felt right, that rolled off the tongue, right. That I think

14:30

the the understanding and the deeper message of what is being

14:33

said under the words, reaches on on a on a more sort of

14:38

vibrational emotional level, even if the language doesn't

14:41

quite reach our level of understanding. And I think that

14:45

somewhat allows for deeper understandings of language to

14:48

take language and think, Well, how can we break this apart and

14:51

look at it deeper into deeper beyond its surface sort of

14:55

thing. And I think that that taught me really early on to to

15:00

engage in poetry, you know, it's like I think it taught me, like

15:04

an ease with language where I didn't have to obsess over. Am I

15:08

using the right? literary form? does this word mean this is this

15:13

being used in the right context? Because I think often going into

15:19

an art form with that kind of mindset around language can sort

15:22

of stifle us and, and put us in a box way too early. And I am

15:27

also very, very dyslexic. So I think naturally, my tendency is

15:32

to take a word, and, you know, mis misuse it. And I think

15:37

sometimes that can be a beautiful thing, because sometimes it allows you to understand something that

15:43

perhaps you wanted to say that you didn't, you didn't know, you

15:47

know, and it perhaps sometimes allows you to get a way more

15:50

playful grasp of language. So yeah, my relationship to

15:57

language has definitely been somewhat therapeutic. And it's

15:59

definitely definitely been an emotional relationship, rather

16:03

than a logical relationship.

16:07

Yeah, and that seems to describe a really important relationship

16:12

around freedom, freeing up language. So we talk about

16:17

breaking barriers, don't wait societal barriers, whether it's,

16:21

you know, race, identity, sex, there are far too many barriers

16:25

that that each of us can face. But it's interesting when you

16:29

start to actually consider the barriers and confines of

16:32

language. And your reflection on that. Yeah, your reflection on

16:39

that is really sending out an important message.

16:43

I mean, I think it's so true what you say, because I think, I

16:48

don't know systems of power and oppression that exist within,

16:52

within our society often rely on language to keep us confined.

16:56

You know, when when you look at the, the words that have come

17:01

about from, from capitalism, from, from systems of power in

17:08

this society in this world, we see that the language that has

17:12

been that has been sort of that we've been conditioned to engage

17:17

in or believe over time, is very much sort of like the pillars

17:22

that hold those systems of power in place, amongst many other

17:26

things, of course, but I think you're right, in pointing out

17:28

the language is definitely a core element and sort of player

17:33

in that sort of, in that power struggle, you know, so and I

17:37

think, often you see that when when we start to have

17:40

discussions as as, as a community about breaking down,

17:44

or you're speaking against certain systems of oppression, I

17:48

think often people have an issue with language. And that always

17:51

seems to be a cause for contention. So it's definitely

17:54

something that we need to think about. And think, maybe think

17:58

about ways that we can, that we can get rid of that we can drop

18:05

our attachment to language, because I think sometimes we

18:07

have unhealthy attachment to words that perhaps can just, you

18:12

know, stifle us further. Yeah, I think that's really significant. Because you can

18:19

easily see language as a hierarchy as well. There can be

18:23

academic elitism, for example, you know, that can inhibit other

18:27

people. Hence, you know, how interesting it is that in many

18:33

ways, you're kind of revolutionising the hip hop

18:36

space in terms of poetry? Because, of course, it's so easy

18:40

for people to leap to the stereotypes of gangsta rap and

18:43

violence. Yeah. But actually, you might argue that it always

18:47

was a space for poetry and therapy. Yeah, so,

18:51

so, so beautiful that you say that, because I think you're

18:55

right, this is usually the racist sort of narrative that

18:58

that, that gives birth to itself from the society that you know,

19:02

like hip hop, or let's say, this art form that comes from black

19:05

people, is something that is violent, or uncivilized, or, you

19:10

know, something that is overly concerned with, with materialism

19:16

and material wealth, and and I think the issue is that there is

19:21

a version of the art form that gets played out, and that gets

19:26

sort of like, pushed to the center. And I believe that's

19:29

very much because we live in a capitalist society that also

19:33

speaks to these themes of material wealth that speaks to

19:37

these themes of you know, that speaks to these themes of, I

19:42

guess, oppressive systems of power. But when you, you're

19:45

right, when you look way deeper into the culture, and it doesn't

19:48

even take much digging to realize, you see that the very

19:51

core foundations of hip hop were to de-escalate systems of white

19:57

supremacy de-escalate systems of re Racism, de-escalate and not

20:02

not only de-escalate, but combat these systems of power, right at

20:06

the core on a community level, they're very radical and the

20:09

very emotional, the birth of hip hop came from this idea of the

20:13

safe space the house party was was very much a setting where

20:17

hip hop culture was born from the end, you would have people

20:20

putting putting cardboard onto the floor of people dancing as a

20:24

means to get out there, there as a means to express themselves.

20:27

But and what that did in turn was not only create a safe space

20:30

for emotional flourishing for expression, but it also meant

20:33

that in a society where, where there's lots of poverty, where

20:39

there's lots of corruption, where there's the pressure of a

20:43

racist, sort of like government and society coming down in on

20:47

the community, it meant that this is a place where we can get

20:51

our anger, you know, this is a place that where we can, where

20:55

we can speak about our justified anger against society. This is a

20:58

this is a place where we have a voice where we have a platform.

21:02

So that's really at the core of hip hop. And I believe that's

21:04

why it is so radically vulnerable and honest, when you

21:08

look at the core of the culture in the office, you know. Yeah, absolutely. And that vulnerability, of course, is is

21:19

often expressions of real courage to do that. I don't know

21:22

if you have necessarily seen the documentary series of the hip

21:27

hop series that looks at the songs that shook America. And

21:31

it's really, it's really powerful. I think you

21:36

might see that on a BBC iPlayer catch up? Yeah, I think it would

21:41

be of interest to because it identifies six songs. And it's

21:45

from the point of view that it is shifting from stereotypes of

21:50

hardcore gangster rap, and and it's almost like violence for

21:53

violence sake. And it's much more in the territory of the

21:59

purpose of what all of the hip hop artists were doing. And they

22:02

were changing barriers. So even if you went into the 90s, then,

22:07

in terms of mainstream awareness run, Run DMC and Aerosmith

22:11

Walk this Way, would have been a real kind of mainstream hit for

22:15

a lot of people that wouldn't have really been engaging with

22:18

hip hop. And of course, what they did was really powerful

22:20

because they were bringing black and white audiences together,

22:23

which is crazy, that we still have to even reference that

22:28

because, you know, that's what Dean Martin and Sammy Davis Jr.

22:32

Were doing. And Frank Sinatra, you know, but even now, we're

22:36

relying on music and in these examples, hip hop culture to do

22:40

that. Yeah, no, I will definitely check that out. Yeah, yeah, that

22:47

sounds really interesting. Yeah, I'll definitely give that a

22:49

watch. Yeah, because I think it's just a reminder that artists don't

22:58

necessarily have the luxury of creating there art, it's very

23:02

much about in being in an arena of struggle. Yeah, it's hard for

23:08

any artists, you know, it's hard for any artist who signs or in a

23:11

record deal. So of course, it's coming from barriers of

23:14

discrimination anyway, I just think it really highlights that

23:19

our is so often an arena of struggle.

23:22

Yeah. And I think just to sort of like reiterate, to go back to

23:27

that point, I also do not have a problem with with, let's say,

23:32

quote, unquote, gangsta rap or quote, unquote, like any, any

23:37

rap that plays to this stereotype that we spoke about,

23:42

because I believe that it's true, cool, you can sort of see,

23:46

the story has been told. And so, you know, it's like, when people

23:52

are speaking from the realm of experience, I think that there's

23:57

nothing more sort of like, valuable than that. And I think,

24:00

I think that's how we've grown to understand like many

24:03

different experiences of many different peoples, you know, is

24:06

by engaging with they are, I think what my issue is, is when

24:09

you have outer groups, people who are outside of the

24:14

community, let's namely, like in historical sensors, in terms of

24:18

hip hop, sort of like white record, label owners come in and

24:23

say, Well, this is the marketable idea of what we need

24:26

to represent of the culture. This is the thing that we are

24:29

going to congratulate more than anything else. And this is the

24:32

thing that we're going to give a platform to rather than anything

24:34

else, I think that that then becomes an issue because it

24:37

becomes more who is in control of the narrative here. And then

24:41

what sort of sort of racism is allowed to be injected into the

24:45

projection of the culture. And as how society perceives

24:50

it, you know, so yeah, I think it's all about who is in control

24:52

of the narrative. And that's when it gets a little shady.

24:56

When you look at things historically, you start to see

24:58

the record companies with swooped in, you know, offer

25:01

somebody like $100,000, or something of that nature, and

25:06

then create a golden standard of what should be created and what

25:09

should be projected in order to gain some sort of financial

25:13

success. Which of which, of course, is manipulation and a

25:17

form of cultural violence, you know? Yeah, so branding is part of your control problem, isn't it

25:26

that product power of marketing. And I think that's probably an

25:32

even heavier burden on artists, because even with that awareness

25:35

in mind, it's another set of barriers, isn't it? It's

25:39

another, it's another David and Goliath battle. Have you managed

25:45

the sense of branding around yourself or your own work?

25:51

That's interesting is not really something that I, I give too

25:54

much thought to. Especially if we go back to this idea of

25:59

honesty and vulnerability, I guess that becomes your guiding

26:03

principle in a way. And not only honestly, just in sort of, like

26:07

literary expression, but honesty in sort of what feels right,

26:12

musically, what feels right, in terms of the choices you make

26:17

within the community, what you know what's like what feels

26:20

right. And that's also was a, that's also a constant battle,

26:24

because you're kind of in this system that we live in, we're

26:27

constantly having to weigh up what feels right, versus what is

26:30

going to allow us to earn some sort of financial compensation

26:34

for the work that we do, you know, and sometimes those two

26:36

things don't always fit together. It's beautiful when

26:39

they do when they're harmonious, and you can do what feels right,

26:42

and it earns you money. But many times, that's not the case. So

26:46

it's a constant. It's a constant battle to, like it's a constant

26:50

moralistic and ethical battle in a way. And sometimes you just

26:53

have to let your your gut guide you and sort of your intuition

26:58

guide you there, you know. Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to see if you knew the work of a

27:06

research professor Brene Brown, because she became like a viral

27:09

hit on TED Talks, you may have come across her work. If not, I

27:13

I think it will interest you. Yeah, because she's done a

27:19

massive study, where she talks about the courage to be

27:23

vulnerable and you talk about the power of vulnerable

27:27

expression. And I think there's lots and lots of synergies

27:32

there. And she describes vulnerability as our "most

27:38

accurate measurement of courage." And I wondered what your

27:42

thoughts were on that? Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah, I mean, to an extent I

27:53

agree with them. Like, I think that vulnerability is definitely

27:57

a, I guess, a more sort of objective way of measuring

28:04

courage, because you can sort of say, well, this person put

28:07

themselves in the sort of position to be exposed, whether

28:12

that's exposing an insecurity, whether that's sort of, you

28:17

know, exposing themselves by sharing an art form that is that

28:21

is difficult or engaging with an art form that is difficult. But

28:24

I think, yeah, what that does is it does create a sense of

28:28

community and it does really sort of like unite people. And I

28:31

think that's, that's why I fell in love with the art form that I

28:33

did is because in let's say, Kid Curry being open about his

28:36

depression, about feeling outcast, it created a point of

28:40

relation, I didn't feel so alone in those in those situations,

28:43

but it took his courage to do that. Then there's, there's a

28:47

dichotomy sort of inside of me that says, whilst vulnerability

28:51

can be a form of courage, it can also be very performative. And

28:56

there's, there's, we see this historically, and we see this in

29:00

our current landscape that capitalism have has a sneaky way

29:04

of injecting itself into any sort of radical, I guess,

29:10

radical activity. And I think capitalism has a way of doing

29:13

that with vulnerability where it becomes about how honest and how

29:17

open can you be in order to market yourself as such, you

29:22

know, and it's like, you have brands sort of latching on to

29:26

the idea of vulnerability in order for them to sell a

29:29

product. And I think we see this with with concepts of like self

29:33

care, for example, you know, self care being somewhat

29:36

something radical in as we said, in a constant rush of things, it

29:39

could be so meaningful to take that moment of self care if if

29:43

what that moment means is giving time for your emotional

29:46

flourishing for giving time for whatever it is usually need.

29:49

However, what we see is we see sort of brands being like, take

29:52

time to eat your favorite brand of ice cream or you know, take

29:56

some time to go shopping at the Gucci store or somewhere, so

30:01

capitalism has a sneaky way of usurping these radical ideas.

30:06

And I also am aware that there's, there's a paradox in

30:11

vulnerability, being honest and vulnerable, sometimes it can

30:15

be unwise, and it can be unhealthy, it can be hurtful,

30:18

you know, if we push people to be vulnerable at the wrong time,

30:20

we can perhaps disturb traumas that weren't ready to be

30:24

disturbed, that weren't ready to sort of be explored, or perhaps

30:28

in a landscape or a space that wasn't safe for those things to

30:31

be exposed. So I think it is very much down to the

30:35

individual's volition and sort of using the guiding principle

30:40

for that. And, and also, I think sometimes, people who have been

30:44

the most courageous, perhaps don't have the luxury of being

30:47

the most vulnerable sometimes, you know, people who have been

30:50

through traumatic events who have survived unimaginable

30:55

things, you know, I think about, I think about some of my family

31:00

heritage, and some of my family that escaped Nazi Germany and

31:06

sort of survived the Holocaust. And I think, like that was

31:09

already such a mountainous thing to survive, that perhaps being

31:16

vulnerable about it and speaking openly about it would be would

31:21

be tremendously difficult to to bring up all that trauma

31:24

straightaway. And so I think it's, I think, sometimes we've

31:29

gone we have exercised that courage to the, to the maximum,

31:33

and we need, then a safe space at some point to talk about it.

31:37

But sometimes vulnerability in in the moment isn't always the

31:42

isn't always the best option, you know. Yeah. And because also, it's removing a relationship that can

31:51

arrive with shame, you know, if you feel vulnerable, and you

31:54

associate that to being weak, and then you feel ashamed, which

31:59

none of none of which is justified. But unfortunately,

32:02

it's so often the connections that are made, it's indeed being

32:05

very careful, whether it's your own self reflection, or in a

32:09

therapy type relationship, that as you approach vulnerability,

32:13

you're not inviting in shame. The mind is too good at

32:20

automatic negative thinking, and prejudiced, habitual thinking.

32:26

And I think what your poetry is doing is literally smashing

32:31

those barriers of language. As we mentioned earlier, you're

32:34

you're inviting people to think again, about their own thoughts.

32:41

Thank you so much. Yeah, just an additional thought on that, I

32:43

think. Sometimes it's a tremendous privilege to to be

32:49

vulnerable in an artistic sense, you know, sometimes, I believe

32:54

it's, it's, it's privileged, that also allows for that, you

32:57

know, and, and when I say that, I mean, to be vulnerable, in

33:02

this artistic sense, sometimes requires space for reflection,

33:07

and space for philosophy. And, and if you're in a place in

33:13

society, where you are constantly having to work, where

33:16

you're constantly having to exercise all your emotional,

33:19

physical energy, just to merely survive, then this idea of

33:24

artistic vulnerability becomes very much a sort of privilege.

33:29

And and something that not everybody can can exercise the

33:32

time for, you know? Oh, absolutely. I think that is really, really significant. And

33:39

it's one of the factors that's problematic in terms of how the

33:43

art suffers from elitism. Because, yeah, there's a lot of

33:47

privilege in order to be able to be an artist, unless, of course,

33:55

you are in that, that space of such deep exposure, that risk is

34:02

what you know, anyway, it's kind of one extreme or the other. Mm

34:07

hmm. No, I think I think it really does remind you that art

34:15

is very much a radical act, depending particularly on the

34:19

circumstances of the artist. Yeah. Do you feel that, do you

34:25

feel radical in your own right from that point of

34:28

view? Oh, interesting. Um, I mean, I would, it would be so nice to

34:34

say yes, it would be so nice and like, it would align with what I

34:40

believe outside of outside like if I was to separate myself,

34:45

from me engaging in my art, to say that the art form was

34:48

radical would be in line with my belief system. But if I was to

34:53

be 100% honest, I think sometimes selfish intention is

34:58

the reason why I would create The art form that I create, and

35:01

then my hope is somehow somehow miraculously, in me being honest

35:07

through some form of selfish, selfish intention. And that

35:11

selfish intention being sometimes to literally see

35:13

myself represented on the page, or to archive my very existence

35:17

in a world that I feel constantly fearful about, or in

35:22

a world that I feel constantly. like I have no grasp or control

35:27

over in a world where I feel my mortality. These are somewhat

35:32

all selfish reasons. But what my hope is that in churning that

35:36

out, we all exist under this thing called the human

35:40

condition. And the hope is that people will do relate, and the

35:43

hope is that it can go on to have some sort of transformative

35:47

effect or some sort of community centric effect. But I would like

35:51

to think it's radical. To be totally honest, I think it is

35:55

more self induced, and I think it is more sort of like an

36:00

introspective, intimate relationship, you know?

36:08

Yeah, of course, we're talking today in the horrifying context

36:14

of of a war of the war on Ukraine. And yeah, the

36:20

existential threats, that war, the vulnerability that the world

36:25

is facing, you know, that grip of anxiety, and the horror of

36:32

the kind of paralysis we all have around it as well, it's,

36:35

you know, something so such an atrocity can't just be stopped.

36:41

I wondered, even if you had thoughts on that kind of global

36:45

scale around trauma, when we mentioned trauma earlier, you

36:50

know, the importance of being able to express trauma, albeit

36:54

carefully so that there's no further damage. Can you even

36:59

begin to imagine how there's going to be expressions of

37:06

trauma out of Ukraine alone, you know, let alone Yemen, let alone

37:10

Afghanistan, let alone Syria, for example. And I just wondered

37:16

what your thoughts were, when you look at all of these men who

37:19

are being told to stay and fight, what your own anxieties

37:24

are around around their trauma.

37:28

Uh, you know, is it's horrifying and, and it's, it's an exact

37:34

representation of where we are in the world right now. And I

37:38

honestly and wholeheartedly do not have the level of wisdom and

37:47

understanding to, to when to engage, hopefully, in that in

37:52

that conversation, because I think I can only ever speak from

37:56

a level of privilege I have not engaged in any, I've not been

38:00

affected by immediately by any form of war. I mean,

38:04

historically, and in my family, I have been affected by forms of

38:09

war and forms of racial oppression. But I can, I can

38:14

definitely not speak on on sort of that, that level of trauma,

38:17

because I think, I think often in we maneuver through society,

38:22

and we see, you know, we're seeing a constant influx of, of

38:26

pain and murder and death. And though it is horrifying, I think

38:32

what it does, by not having this proximity towards it, and not

38:35

having a true understanding of it, and also not having, as I

38:38

said, back to this capitalist tendency to not give us time to

38:41

actually process these things. What it truly does is create a

38:45

sense of numb. And I think sometimes, in my case, that

38:49

numbing is coming from a proximity, a distant proximity

38:53

to to war and death and which is, which is a sense of privilege.

38:58

So I truly cannot speak on it, you know? All that all I can say

39:03

is I know that it's horrifying what is happening in in Ukraine.

39:09

It's also horrifying, the murder that has been happening in

39:12

Palestine, the murder that happens in Syria. And I think,

39:17

sadly, what what happens is we we often as a western society,

39:25

and as a product of whiteness and racism in society, can so

39:31

easily distance ourselves from the murder that happens in

39:34

Syria, the murder that happens in Palestine, Afghanistan, but

39:39

we all of a sudden feel something so visceral about

39:43

what's happening in Ukraine as we should, as we should feel,

39:46

what is happening, but I think it definitely makes a note of

39:52

our level of privilege and how, what speaks to us, you know, and

39:57

yeah, I personally I do not believe in any form of war, I do

40:02

not believe in any form of military, I do not believe in. I

40:08

think the end result is always murder and death. And I think

40:13

the point is to always think about well, how can we? How can

40:16

we support communities and individuals and oppressed

40:19

peoples who were always impacted the worst by these situations?

40:24

And yeah, I am too, I'm far too, sort of my my privilege is

40:31

far too comfy for me to truly talk on the trauma that those

40:34

people are experiencing in real time, you know. What you do, however, do in your work is talk very clearly about

40:45

compassion. But in terms of compassionate action, you know,

40:48

it's not just a point of view, I think it's interesting, where

40:53

you describe yourself, I'll quote, you as a "catalytic

40:56

converter, transforming external world toxins into poems of hope."

41:04

And I thought that was really powerful, because it's kind of

41:08

stating your purpose, you know, your poetic purposes,

41:11

compassionate, compassionate action. How would you expand on

41:16

that? Yeah, no, thank you so much for calling that. So that's, that's

41:20

a line from from the book Safe and Metamorphosis and yeah,

41:25

how would I expand on that I think it very much is the access

41:28

to everything, all the access, to everything that we've been

41:32

speaking about, you know, this idea that the world gives us

41:36

something, and if you have time to process it, if you have the

41:39

mental space, and, and, you know, the opportunity to process

41:45

it, what we can do is create something beautiful out of that

41:48

not only something beautiful that other people can really

41:50

relate to, but something that allows us to understand our

41:54

state of existence, and our state of struggle. So I'm very

41:58

much for thinking about how to take the scenic route with

42:01

language, thinking about how to beautify what we have our pain

42:05

and, and adorn it in a way that that we can experience and have

42:11

joy out of it. You know, there's, there's the biblical

42:14

scripture, whatever, what, whatever the devil has made, for

42:18

bad God will make for good, you know, and to take that outside

42:22

of it's sort of like biblical context or the, you know, it's

42:25

like, it's spiritual connotations. But to just put it

42:28

into the realm of art, as it relates to life, whatever pain

42:34

and whatever trauma has been, has been forced onto us. I

42:38

believe art gives us an opportunity to not only find

42:41

therapy in it, but also find joy in it, you know, at some point.

42:47

Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's remaining mindful of the power

42:51

of optimism and hope and joy, to not only be defeated, you know,

42:57

by all the stresses and horrors of life, Otis, what, what would

43:03

you say, explains why a poem can speak, but we may not talk to

43:11

each other? Wow, that's such an interesting question. Huh? That's, that's

43:19

that, that really speaks to me. I think it's because I think

43:23

there's many reasons but I think one of the reasons is because

43:28

vulnerability being core to this question, I think, we struggle

43:32

to, we struggle to face ourselves and we see ourselves

43:36

in other people. And it's, it's almost, it's almost sometimes

43:39

too much of a high volume of ourselves to experience, you

43:43

know, to look somebody in the face and experience their

43:45

humaneness. And do that with compassion, with empathy, with

43:49

understanding, is sometimes far too overstimulating for our for

43:54

ourselves to sort of bear especially when we're dealing

43:56

with our own insecurities, especially when we're dealing

43:59

with our own societal, I don't know, struggles and the systems

44:03

of oppression and trying to navigate those, sometimes it's

44:06

so hard to see those and relate to those and other people, which

44:11

is sad, and it's a bit of a curse of the human existence.

44:14

But then I do believe that the art is a form of is a bridge in

44:17

that sense. And it allows us to put ourselves in the piece of

44:21

art in a way that maybe is a little more digestible, or maybe

44:24

speaks to something that's a little more emotionally

44:27

universal, where we can see our our fellow person in something

44:33

that we can understand, you know, in something that we can

44:35

process in our own time. Somehow something, something of what

44:40

Jericho Brown, the incredible poet said comes to mind, and he

44:45

speaks about poetry. I'm paraphrasing, of course, but he

44:48

speaks about poetry having a relationship to beauty, and the

44:53

like the aesthetic of beauty, and you know how he would relate

44:57

that to our art. Our need for trees you know, it's a

45:02

relationship of beauty, we don't quite know why we need trees or

45:06

why we need poetry. But if we didn't have them, we would

45:09

definitely notice it and something would be a lot more

45:11

bleak. So I find that I find what he said, they're so

45:17

beautiful. And it allows me to sort of resonate with this idea

45:23

that perhaps something doesn't always have to be analyzed, or,

45:28

you know, sort of picked apart objectively and logically, but

45:32

sometimes things can just speak to us emotionally, you know,

45:35

thinking about back to what we spoke about with the, the level

45:39

of language that we that we resonate to the emotional side

45:42

of language, the the emotional face to language, and thinking

45:45

about what transformative impact that can have on us, as opposed

45:49

to was always living in our head, you know, always, it

45:52

always coming from our head, what happens if we were to allow

45:55

it to come from something a little lower down, you know?

46:02

Yeah. I'm interested in your experience of becoming a poet

46:09

laureate. And your experience of managing that label, if you

46:13

like, it kind of makes you almost like an official

46:17

spokesperson, or, or does it impose anything that you didn't

46:21

expect? I just wondered what kind of judgments you may have

46:24

dealt with? Yeah, sure. I mean, when I, when I was asked to do the role in

46:33

2018, it was it was a privilege. And it was also sort of like a

46:38

big, anxiety inducing idea as well, because I was aware that

46:45

there was a responsibility behind it. And I was aware that

46:48

I was going to be asked questions that I perhaps

46:50

sometimes wouldn't be prepared, wouldn't have been prepared to

46:53

answer, you know. And I think with a role that has been

46:59

traditionally exercised under ideas of elitism ideas of white

47:05

supremacy, it was always going to be something radical to, for

47:10

me to be the poet laureate, especially with no literary

47:13

training, traditionally, no literary training, given the

47:17

fact that I didn't come from, let's say, a classical or

47:21

traditional poetry back ground, my, my artistic influences from

47:26

the realm of music is from the realm of jazz, from the realm of

47:29

hip hop, from the realm of spoken word and performance

47:33

poetry, which often gets snuffed by the elitist idea, you know,

47:38

when trying to exist in spaces of academia or spaces of more

47:42

traditional poetry. So I started to learn that very quick, I

47:45

started to realize that that was the case. However, on the flip

47:49

side, it was very easy to ignore that in the face of all the

47:52

beauty that the role brought about, you know, I got the

47:56

opportunity to speak to groups of young people that I would

47:59

have never had the opportunity to talk about this beautiful art

48:03

form that I learned through hip hop, this art form of

48:06

expression, this art form of rap poetry. And I think it was

48:10

meaningful to talk to people about that and sort of let them

48:14

know what sort of transformative effect it had on me and sort of

48:17

see if there is grounds and space for it to have that

48:20

transformative effect on them. You know, I've got to do things

48:23

like deliver my first public lecture on hip hop philosophy

48:27

and poetry and, and I got to deliver my deliver seminars as

48:34

part of the the actual literature curriculum at

48:39

Sheffield University and things of that nature. So yeah, the

48:43

beauty far outweighed the challenges. But yeah, it was

48:50

always interesting for me to be asked sort of like, who are your

48:52

favorite poets and them always sort of expecting me to, I don't

48:57

know, say William Wordsworth for I remember, when I first when I

49:01

first became poet laureate, there was a there was some sort

49:03

of like sub article on the online version, I think it was

49:07

in The Star of how this mentor is not a real poet, William

49:10

Wordsworth. And I always found that quite amusing. Especially

49:16

when in the face of yeah, it'd be like one of my favorite poets

49:19

are Black Thoughtoot of The Roots and sort of seeing people, you know,

49:24

shake under, under the idea that this elitist idea couldn't

49:29

continue on, but also shake under the idea that perhaps they

49:33

weren't the expert, perhaps they had something to learn perhaps

49:37

there was a level of curiosity there too, which is always

49:40

beautiful. It's always beautiful to shake people's ideas about

49:45

art and shake people's preconceived ideas about the all

49:49

that matters, in our culture and in in our personal lives, you

49:53

know, so it was an interesting journey. Yeah, absolutely. And when you're facing those challenges,

50:01

you know, because you have a new label or a new definition or

50:05

identity, you know what you do. When you feel fearful? How do

50:11

you manage it? Yes. No, that's, that's a great question. I think, I think to be

50:19

honest, when it comes to sharing my art, I tend not to feel

50:23

fearful. And that can sound sort of egotistical, or it can even

50:29

sound as though it's coming from a place of deep courage. But

50:32

sometimes I don't think it is, I think sometimes it comes from a

50:34

place of naivety, you know, I was definitely raised in an art

50:40

form, that tells you that your ideas matter that your ideas

50:46

that as, as I spoke about before, that you have a unique

50:49

story to, to sort of share. And so once you grasp the feeling of

50:55

that, even though the ID can be shaken by by, you know, as odd

50:58

as we compare ourselves to other people, and our self esteem can

51:02

often be on the chopping block. So you know what, but when

51:06

that's not the case, and when you do have this form of

51:08

unbridled self assurance in your story, as I think all of us

51:14

should do. Fear isn't a factor that that seeps into sharing our

51:20

you know, so I have an interesting relationship with

51:25

fear because I experienced fear a lot. In my day to day life, I

51:29

experienced fear a lot. When it comes to thinking about

51:33

mortality when it comes to thinking about choices when it

51:36

comes to thinking about societal expectations, should I say, or

51:41

family or, you know, any of the above romance or any of the

51:45

above, I experienced so much fear. And it's so beautiful to

51:50

me that art is this safe space, where actually fear is something

51:54

that that can't see its way in and sort of art and expression

51:57

is this imperishable, unbridled, unbridled state of sort of, sort

52:04

of existence and sharing, you know?

52:09

Yeah. From that point of view, is the performance space, the

52:14

live performance space natural to you? Or is that an act of

52:18

courage? I would love to say it's an act of courage, but it is 100%

52:24

natural to me, I feel a little more closer to the person that I

52:29

am, when I'm performing on stage, I feel like I can truly

52:31

be myself. That's not to say that there's not fabrication and

52:36

that's not to say that there's not performance, given the exist

52:40

on the stage like onstage. But it just feels aligned with what

52:45

I have always conditioned myself to believe is my purpose. You

52:48

know, so I think two things align my my childhood teenage

52:53

self is saying, yes, you will, right. And, on the on the flip

52:58

side, I'm also getting some healthy, some healthy dopamine

53:03

and some healthy, sort of seeing my ideas represented in the

53:08

world and seeing them you know, you create in this sort of

53:11

introvert, intimate space that is often cut off from the rest

53:15

of the world, or just your life as an artist, creating and

53:20

ongoing with your creative endeavors, is sometimes

53:23

isolating. So to see your ideas come to life, as they pertain to

53:28

people and how people feel and people's emotions and actual,

53:32

tangible, non ineffable physical community is so, so joyous, and

53:38

it's so so meaningful. So whenever I get chances to

53:42

perform, it just feels right and fear doesn't get chance to sort

53:45

of niggle its way in. Yeah, it's really interesting. It's a really interesting way of

53:54

being able to control fear isn't taking over. It does seem that

54:00

there's a role for encouraging curiosity and courage in ways

54:08

that aren't asking too much, but to really inviting some sense of

54:14

freedom and some sense of ownership instead of what can

54:17

feel like capitalistic oppression a dumbing down or a

54:21

numbing, like you said earlier, you know, that starts to deprive

54:25

people from their own acts of curiosity and courage. Would you

54:31

say there's a case to almost encourage that, to encourage

54:36

engaging in being curious and being courageous in ways that

54:41

which may be through art? Yeah, I think, you know, I feel like that that's the, that's the

54:51

resonance of which our life vibrates best, you know, when we

54:55

can feel that our courage is sort of pushing us in to our,

55:00

our sense of purpose, or pushing us into a space where we not

55:04

only feel comfortable, but go beyond feeling comfortable, and

55:07

we're able to flourish. And what does that mean? That means that

55:10

we're able to emotionally accept ourselves, perhaps even able to

55:14

physically accept ourselves, despite societal, society's

55:20

voice always having something to say about that. I think when we

55:25

can feel like that, we're in our true, we're in our true skin,

55:30

and we're in our true sort of purpose for life, if you will.

55:34

And I'm a firm believer of whatever realm of vehicle that

55:38

that takes that that's okay. You know, I believe artists can

55:41

exist in any form and walk of life. You know, an artist

55:45

doesn't always have to be somebody who creates the product

55:47

of art. But an artist can be somebody who injects their

55:51

artistry into their social work, who injects that artistry into

55:55

their therapy, who injects that artistry into the way that they

55:58

engage with the community. I think there's so many things in

56:03

this, there's so many things that we lack in the society. So

56:07

if you have found a way to create a solution for for the

56:12

huge, sort of boundless lack that that this world gives us, I

56:17

think that's an art in and of itself. And I think that's in

56:20

line with a humanistic and soulful purpose.

56:26

Yeah, yeah. And purpose is so important. As you know, having a

56:31

clear purpose is so important. Yeah. Unbelievably, it's, the

56:38

the hour flies by too fast. But there is a question I'd like

56:43

to ask, it's amazing how fast it goes, you'll have to be a guest

56:48

in every season. But um, something I would be interested

56:57

in, in closing on is in response to the series, the question

57:01

that's posed "Can art save us?" I'm really interested in your

57:05

description of art, and I'll quote you. "Pain gave birth to

57:10

art. Although they never did see eye to eye, art cared only for

57:16

liberation from its predecessor." Yeah, I love that. And I just

57:22

wondered if you wanted to, you know, for the listeners to talk

57:25

about, you know, what was in your mind and what it is you're

57:28

saying? Yeah, no, thank you so much for sharing that. So then then

57:34

again, that's another quote from, from the book Safe

57:36

Metamorphosis. And, you know, it was speaking to this idea that

57:42

the artist always has to delve into a cauldron or, or a puddle

57:49

or a well of pain in order to create something. And I thought

57:54

about that idea. And I thought about how meaningful it is to

57:57

see our pain represented in a way that I said, is sort of

58:02

beautified, but also understandable, and that we can

58:05

relate to create a sense of community. But then I think

58:10

about the sort of negative connotations that that might

58:13

have, does that mean artists have to exist under a constant

58:16

state of proximity to pain? And I thought about that, well, no,

58:20

actually, it doesn't. Because as the line says, art really

58:25

doesn't care too much about your pain, it really only cares about

58:28

the transformation. It really only cares about the

58:31

metamorphosis that can come from it. And that's where art can

58:35

sort of save the world and change the world. I don't

58:38

believe art for art's sake, can save the world and change the

58:41

world. But I believe art's ability to have sort of

58:48

liberation from the pain that we go through, can really spark the

58:52

change in society that we need, you know, you know, I think

58:55

about any form of social movement that has existed, I

58:59

always say I dare you to find the piece of art that wasn't

59:02

playing in the background that wasn't fulfilling people with

59:06

the soul that they needed to keep on going. And so in that

59:10

sense, yes, art, art has, has a great need to sort of see itself

59:16

free from pain. And I think what we can do is we can learn from

59:20

that and inject that into our societies, into our communities,

59:24

and just into our own personalized lives.

59:28

Yeah, and then that's such a beautiful and important

59:33

sentiment and statement really, again, when we're in a war

59:37

context, unbelievably, you know that the issue of pain. I

59:44

can't thank you enough for your time and your generosity of your

59:48

time today. We'll make sure that listeners know where to find you

59:54

in the text to the podcast series. Just to close are there

59:59

any any final words you'd like to share in terms of whoever is

1:00:04

going to be listening? Whether it's words of hope, or just a

1:00:11

sentiment that you'd like people to take away from listening to

1:00:15

this podcast today? I guess something that resonates with me is, is this idea that

1:00:28

that we shouldn't sort of be confined by by rules and,

1:00:32

and sort of whatever it is that you're trying to engage in, in

1:00:36

whatever art form that you see yourself being freed by or freed

1:00:39

inside of participating in, don't let yourself be stifled by

1:00:43

the rules of that art form, or the traditions of that art form.

1:00:48

Whether that's literary modes, whether that's conventions, and

1:00:53

again, I think, understanding that we have such a deep sense

1:01:00

of purpose within within us, that doesn't always have to be

1:01:03

sort of represented logically, but sometimes can have soulful

1:01:08

and emotional meaning and power. And sometimes that's completely

1:01:11

enough, you know, so the everybody's story matters that

1:01:14

everybody has something to share. And that we can share

1:01:19

that our own volition in our own time, using our own forms of

1:01:24

communication and our own forms of art. And that's meaningful

1:01:28

enough. Thank you. Thank you so much, Otis, and I am very much

1:01:33

looking forward to the next book of poems and following your

1:01:37

work. Thank you again. Thank you so much.