1:59

something sharp. To turn

2:02

it into a skyward saw.

2:05

Some use wax, but I think a lot of people

2:08

are buying strings that are coated

2:10

in little pieces of glass, making

2:13

it sharp and scratchy. So

2:15

if you can get your string to touch theirs, and

2:17

then just at the right time give it a quick tug,

2:20

it'll scrape your string across theirs and

2:22

it may cut their kite string, sending

2:25

their kite to float off freely and

2:27

eventually crash to the ground. But

2:29

like a block away, leaving yours in

2:32

the air as the victor of the battle.

2:34

It's wild. You can watch these

2:36

videos where you see somebody taking out like one

2:38

kite after another on rooftops. And

2:40

I can't tell if the other fliers like this or

2:43

hate this. Because if you had like a nine

2:45

year old trying out a kite and their

2:47

string gets slashed by some teenager looking

2:50

for some sky

2:50

fight, that kid's going

2:52

to be crying. But anyway, that's

2:54

kite fighting. Or locally in India,

2:56

it's known as manja. And you can

2:58

buy like sharpened manja strings in

3:01

stores and online. But

3:03

hold on, this gets even crazier. So you

3:05

have these razor sharp kite strings flying

3:07

around in the air, right? All from rooftops

3:10

and residential areas. But these are in

3:12

some busy areas with lots of street traffic. So

3:14

like motorcycles and cars are whizzing by

3:16

down on the streets below. So

3:18

what happens sometimes

3:19

is when these losing kites

3:21

crash into the ground, sometimes

3:24

they get tangled in weird ways on

3:26

its descent. Like the string may get

3:28

snagged up on some tree branch or a sign

3:30

or something. But then the kite floats to

3:32

the other side of the road and

3:34

gets tangled on that side, essentially making

3:37

a little tightrope that goes across the street.

3:40

And when someone drives by, the car

3:42

can get snagged on it and pull the string

3:44

in weird ways. Well, the

3:47

real problem comes with motorcycles

3:49

and bicycles. There have been

3:52

a lot of incidents where the

3:54

string gets caught around the neck of a

3:56

motorcyclist and cuts their

3:58

throat.

3:59

scratches, caches, and cuts. But

4:02

some have even died from getting

4:04

their neck slit by a glass covered

4:07

string. Yeah, people

4:09

have died from this kite fighting

4:11

stuff. So what motorcyclists

4:14

do in the areas where it's popular is

4:17

to install a small bar on the front

4:19

of the motorcycle to catch any of those strings.

4:21

It kind of looks like a little antenna on the front of the

4:23

motorcycle and it's there just to catch any

4:26

kite fighter strings from killing

4:28

the rider.

4:31

It's always interesting to me to see the downwind

4:34

consequences of something that

4:36

we didn't immediately think would

4:38

be a problem. These

4:43

are true stories from the dark side of the

4:45

internet.

4:49

I'm Jack Resider. This

4:53

is Dark Knight Diaries.

5:11

This episode is sponsored by ThreatLocker.

5:13

These days, one wrong click of a button can

5:16

lead to a catastrophic cyber attack on your

5:18

organization and nobody has time to keep training

5:20

poor Doris and accounting on what

5:22

not to click. Cyber attacks are devastating

5:25

to businesses and without the correct solution

5:27

in place, your operation remains at risk.

5:29

ThreatLocker has built an endpoint protection

5:32

platform that strengthens your infrastructure

5:35

from the ground up with zero trust security

5:37

posture that protects business critical

5:39

data while also mitigating cyber attacks.

5:42

ThreatLocker's allow listing, ring fencing,

5:44

storage control, elevation control, and

5:47

network control solutions, to name a few, give

5:49

you a more secure approach to blocking

5:51

the exploits of known and unknown threats

5:54

and application vulnerabilities. Working

5:56

together to deny applications by default,

5:58

block inbound network traffic.

9:51

I

10:01

have a lawyer from Punjab though who

10:03

is gonna help me get out.

10:05

Why didn't you call your dad?

10:07

No, no, no, no. I can't call your

10:09

dad. He thinks I am working hard. What

10:11

would he think if I tell him I have been arrested? He's

10:14

already had a heart attack and I don't want to risk

10:16

calling another. Everything with the

10:19

party happened last night and as soon

10:21

as I called, I called you. I

10:23

just need you to talk to the lawyer and say

10:25

that you are my cousin.

10:27

I still think your dad should know but

10:30

okay, what can I do?

10:32

I'll pass you over to my lawyer. All

10:34

you have to say is, the boy is innocent,

10:37

the boy has done nothing wrong. Please

10:39

leave him be. My ATM card, my

10:41

identity card, all the money from my wallet, it's

10:43

in custody. I can't do anything.

10:46

Okay, okay. Let's talk.

10:49

Talk to my cousin. Hello.

10:52

Hello? You are the lawyer?

10:54

Yes, my name is Lakhwinder Singhlaka. How

10:57

are you related to the boy, sir? Yeah,

10:59

yeah, she is my cousin. Right.

11:02

I have met with the officers on duty and

11:04

I have spoken to them.

11:05

Now you tell me about the boy. Should

11:07

he be punished or released? Let

11:10

him go. He is innocent.

11:12

You know, foreign laws are very

11:14

strict and very different to Punjabi laws.

11:17

And so that it's clear, your cousin

11:19

may be charged with being an accomplice in a murder

11:22

case. The waiter is under intensive

11:25

care in hospital. This is an extremely

11:27

serious charge. One that will ruin

11:29

your cousin's life. We will have to prove

11:31

him innocent to save him.

11:33

Okay, sir.

11:35

I will have to say that those who are his friends are

11:37

not his friends. He went alone to the club,

11:39

drank only water and was

11:41

alone at his table until he was rudely interrupted

11:43

by these people, who then started a fight.

11:46

If we do not prove him innocent, he will go

11:48

away for 25 years. Do you understand?

11:51

Yes, I understand.

11:53

There will be a cost if you want to save his

11:55

life. We will have to encourage the officers

11:58

to remember events the way we want them to. Some

12:01

money put into their pockets. Think

12:03

of it as a small file. I

12:05

will need you to send money to help them.

12:07

But wait, he has more money than me. Can't

12:09

you take it from him?

12:11

That's not going to work. Talk

12:13

to your cousin Jaghi. He'll tell you what to do.

12:17

Hello Raj. How

12:20

much money do you have?

12:22

Raj, Raj loads it by account.

12:25

But I don't have any access to it. You

12:27

must pay it off. However much it costs. I will

12:30

pay you back. I swear my guru

12:32

grant. I'll repay you as soon as I get out.

12:35

We need your dad's help for this

12:37

one cousin. Please,

12:39

please, please don't call anyone. I'll

12:41

be shamed for eternity. I'm begging you, please. My

12:46

family is going to realize if money goes missing.

12:49

No, no, no. It won't be that much. Talk

12:52

to your lawyer and he'll give you an idea. My

12:54

life will be wasted if you don't help me out

12:56

now. Okay, okay. Hey,

12:59

sir. Talk to him. Hello?

13:02

Lawyer, how much money is needed?

13:04

It will cost about $2,000. $1,500 is needed just to pay for damages to

13:07

the club.

13:11

Okay, listen, lawyer. I have one request. Yes?

13:14

I wanted to leave my cousin in prison for a long time.

13:16

What? Why? Because

13:18

he's a terrible person. He tried to scam me

13:20

for $2,000. You're both sick to

13:23

act like my cousin and try to steal money from me. I

13:26

know my cousin, and it does not sound like that.

13:28

I've recorded this entire call and I will share it

13:30

with the police.

13:32

I find this call interesting. The

13:34

victim recognized that this was an attempted scam

13:36

right away and recorded the whole phone conversation.

13:39

And it's very good for him to notice it that

13:41

soon and hit record for the whole call. But

13:43

would you have noticed this was a scam so early

13:45

on? If your cousin called you out

13:48

of the blue and was in trouble, would

13:50

you have been tempted to send him $2,000 to free him? Apparently,

13:55

this kind of scam is becoming more popular in Punjab,

13:58

which is an area in India. India

14:00

and Pakistan. And what you're hearing behind me

14:02

here is a clip from a YouTuber called Suuk

14:05

Viral, highlighting

14:08

how people are getting hit with this scam. The

14:10

idea here is simple. The scammer will

14:12

pose as someone you know and ask

14:15

you for money. It's not always the same scenario

14:17

though. Let's hear another one of these calls.

14:19

Hello.

14:20

Hey buddy, how are you doing?

14:22

Yeah, I'm good thanks. And you?

14:24

Yes, all good here.

14:26

What have you been up to? Do I know you? Sorry.

14:28

You don't recognize my voice?

14:31

No, sorry.

14:33

What? I'm sure a daughter's crazy

14:35

and Rani would recognize my voice. It's

14:37

Tarun. I'm calling from Kannada.

14:40

Oh, Tarun. Hi, I didn't

14:42

recognize your- I'm calling you because I'm

14:44

in trouble and I need your help.

14:47

Oh no, what happened?

14:49

You know I went to Kannada

14:51

to do my studies, right?

14:52

Yes, I know.

14:54

So first I moved in with a girl

14:56

while going to school

14:57

and I tell you cousin, I never did

14:59

anything wrong to her. But we

15:02

did some things together and she took

15:04

a video of me naked in her bed and

15:07

now she has accused me of raping her. Oh,

15:09

that's so embarrassing to say out loud

15:11

because it's not true and it's just

15:13

so awkward.

15:15

I know you will help me.

15:16

Why don't you call your dad or sister?

15:18

Oh no, no, you know my parents. If

15:21

they get to know about this, they will be panicked and

15:23

really upset. Let me get out of this

15:25

trouble

15:25

and I will let them know personally. But

15:28

I don't want them to know right now. My

15:30

dad will not believe me cousin. It's too

15:32

embarrassing and he will be angry. He's

15:35

already unhappy about my grades.

15:37

I don't want to make it worse.

15:39

So what can I do?

15:41

I've talked to a lawyer who says

15:43

he can get me free from discharge but

15:46

he's expensive and I don't have

15:48

the money.

15:49

How much money do you need?

15:50

The lawyer is also from Punjab

15:52

and he wants to help because we're

15:55

both from Punjab. He's giving me a discount.

15:58

He says for $14,000. He

16:01

can free me from the charges. That's

16:04

what? 2000 Canadian, is that right?

16:06

Yes, cousin. I'm sorry to ask

16:08

you like this, but you would be saving

16:10

my life. Imagine, if I don't

16:12

do anything, I will go to jail for a long

16:15

time.

16:16

Okay, okay. I will help. How can I send

16:18

you the money?

16:19

Okay, so I have my lawyer right

16:21

here. He can tell you. I will give

16:23

the phone to him now. Here.

16:27

Hello?

16:28

We think we can free you

16:30

cousin

16:30

from the charges, but we need 40,000 rupees to get

16:32

started on the case. Are

16:34

you able to send that?

16:36

Yes, I will send it.

16:38

Okay. The fastest way to send the money

16:40

is through Western Union. Do you have a pen?

16:42

I will tell you the name to send it to.

16:44

Yes, yes, please tell me. I will send it right

16:46

away.

16:47

Okay. You must send it using Western

16:49

Union to a new shankar.

16:51

Okay, I will. Thank you. Bye. Goodbye.

16:54

Tarun's cousin was convinced he spoke to

16:56

Tarun on the phone and wanted to

16:58

help him. So he sent $700. But

17:02

ouch. This was a scam. He

17:04

was out all that money. And almost immediately

17:07

after sending the money, the scammer called back

17:09

asking for another $1,200.

17:11

Tarun's cousin said

17:14

okay and started trying to get

17:16

more money to send, but then

17:18

started having second thoughts and

17:21

decided to call Tarun's sister. And

17:23

just told his sister, hey, can

17:26

you check on Tarun to make sure everything is okay?

17:28

My name is Tarun and I'm living in

17:30

Canada, basically from India and

17:33

Punjab state. This is the real

17:35

Tarun, the guy that the scammer was

17:37

impersonating. We'll start from the beginning.

17:40

At one day I woke up early, around 4

17:43

a.m. and I saw some

17:45

missed call from one of my family members, my

17:48

cousin, and one from my sister. And

17:50

I called my sister first and she

17:52

said, hey, where are you? And

17:55

are you okay? She seemed panicked

17:57

to me and I asked her what happened. Then,

18:00

okay, call your cousin, he will tell you the whole story.

18:02

Tarun was confused. The whole story?

18:05

What's the whole story? Something very

18:07

strange was going on here, and even his sister won't

18:09

tell him what's going on. But okay, Tarun

18:12

ends the call with his sister. Then I called my

18:14

cousin, he said, hey, are you okay?

18:16

And I said, yes, I'm okay, I'm in your house, what happened? He

18:19

said, somebody impersonated you and

18:21

called me and said that I'm

18:23

in trouble, I'm in jail for doing

18:26

something really embarrassing. So I

18:28

was surprised at that moment, how could somebody

18:32

involve my cousin or my relative in

18:35

such kind of thing?

18:37

You gotta probably

18:40

appreciate your cousin for helping you out. If

18:42

you get in jail, he's gonna

18:44

send you $1,200. Yes,

18:46

exactly, yes, yes, yes. Actually,

18:49

after a few months, I sent

18:52

him the money that he lost.

18:54

He wasn't asking for it, but I thought I should pay

18:56

him back because it was all from

18:58

his resources. And what would

19:00

happen if he sent another 9,000 rupees to the

19:02

scammer who lost around all of

19:05

his money, like he has kids to raise and

19:07

his family. So I thought, okay, I would

19:09

send him the 40,000 rupees that he lost.

19:12

Wow,

19:14

what even is the morally right thing to do

19:16

here? On one hand, his

19:18

cousin is the one who made the mistake and Tarun did

19:20

nothing wrong. But on the other hand,

19:23

Tarun's cousin came to his rescue,

19:26

even though he didn't actually need help and sent money

19:28

to his scammer and not him. But to just

19:30

call someone out of the blue like that and

19:32

they immediately send you $1,700, that's

19:35

a great cousin to have.

19:38

I think Tarun did a standup move

19:40

by sending his cousin the money he lost. And

19:42

how this scam works seems kind of familiar

19:44

to me, actually. I've always been warning people

19:47

about scammers targeting elderly people

19:49

to try to tell them their grandchild or something

19:51

is in trouble and needs help to get out

19:53

of a mess. Because some elderly people

19:55

think that family is above everything and they'll just immediately

19:58

try to help their family without... thinking about it or

20:00

validating it. So like if a scammer

20:02

knows someone is traveling abroad, they could call

20:05

back home to the grandparent and say, your

20:07

son has been arrested here and needs money

20:10

to bail them out of jail. And the

20:12

grandparent might just pay right away because

20:14

it's very difficult to like work through

20:16

time zones and phones and stuff. And

20:19

so the grandparent doesn't wanna drop the call since it

20:21

may be really hard to get that person back who's in

20:23

another country. Calling long distance

20:25

and getting a person who can speak their language is

20:27

sometimes pretty tricky. The other thing

20:29

I'm starting to see arise in is AI

20:31

scammers. This is where they get like some

20:34

clips of audio from the person that they're trying to

20:36

imitate. And then they get AI

20:38

to clone that voice so that AI

20:41

can just talk like that person for them. And

20:43

then this is when they call the victim and their

20:45

voice sounds just like their real cousin

20:47

or brother or whatever. Tarun

20:50

and his family did not know that these kinds of scams

20:52

were going around and they paid a price for

20:54

it.

20:55

But once it happened, they started seeing

20:57

how other families are getting hit with these kinds of scams

21:00

too and noticing post after post

21:02

on social media. As the time passed,

21:05

after several months, I

21:07

got to see same stories or same

21:09

scams on Facebook happening to

21:11

other people as well.

21:13

Now, what was surprising to me when I first heard about Tarun's

21:15

story is that I think everyone's heard

21:17

about these Indian scammers trying to call you and

21:19

act like they're Microsoft tech support so you can send

21:21

them some money or something. But I've not

21:24

heard of Indian scammers scamming other

21:26

people from India.

21:28

But apparently there's a reason for this. I

21:30

come from the Punjab in India. And

21:33

so most of the population has migrated

21:35

to in foreign countries like Canada, Europe,

21:38

Australia, New Zealand. And so

21:41

there's hardly any person

21:43

in India or in Punjab who

21:46

doesn't know anybody in one of their relatives

21:48

or friends who is living abroad. So

21:51

these scammers is taking the

21:53

benefit of this effect

21:56

that if you go to a random

21:58

person in Punjab...

21:59

and ask them if he or she has

22:02

any relative living abroad. I don't

22:04

really think that anyone would ever say

22:06

no to this fact. And it's also really tricky

22:08

when scammers say, oh, don't tell mom or

22:10

dad, you know how they are, they'll have a heart attack,

22:13

which is such a powerful line, especially

22:15

if the target's dad did have a heart

22:17

attack, you know, it's a great reason

22:20

not to tell them.

22:21

But these scammers are even more tricky than that.

22:23

In the end, when he gets the trust

22:26

of the entity and he said,

22:28

hey, are you alone? I wanna tell you something

22:30

in private. If you're not, just get

22:32

out of the house and wanna say something or I want

22:35

you to do my favor.

22:36

And here's another red flag. When a scammer

22:38

tries to isolate you and get you to not

22:40

tell anyone else, that should

22:43

be like a warning sign, like, wait a minute, why

22:45

is this a secret? I

22:48

think I do need to bring this up with someone else

22:50

in my family. But

22:52

it's crazy that just a little bit of small talk

22:55

is how you can get your target to do

22:57

this. I'm still not convinced that

22:59

these scammers are from India, scamming other

23:01

people from India. Stay with

23:03

us because when we come back from the break,

23:06

we learn where they're really from.

23:11

Support for this show comes from Exonius.

23:13

Gain visibility into your entire attack

23:15

surface with Exonius. Exonius

23:18

is the solid foundation you need in

23:20

your security program to adapt

23:22

to change and control complexity. The

23:25

Exonius Cybersecurity Asset Management

23:27

Platform correlates data from existing

23:29

tools to provide an always up-to-date

23:32

inventory, uncover security gaps, and

23:34

automate response actions. Go to exonius.com

23:38

slash darknet to learn more and to get a

23:40

demo. It's Exonius spelled

23:42

A-X-O-N-I-U-S.

23:46

Exonius.com slash

23:48

darknet.

23:52

Okay, so these scammers speak fluent

23:54

Punjabi, right? And that's a language

23:56

spoken in the Punjab region.

23:59

But that... region is very interesting.

24:01

The thing is the Punjabi is

24:04

actually divided in Pakistan and some other regions

24:06

of India. So if somebody is talking

24:08

in Punjabi, it's the same language as

24:10

the people living in India side as

24:12

well.

24:13

Yeah, Punjab is actually a really big

24:15

area in South Asia and is shared

24:17

between Pakistan and India. The two

24:19

countries have a long-standing feud for loads

24:22

of reasons and a similar feud is seen

24:24

between the Punjabis in India and

24:26

Pakistan. So even though they share the

24:28

same language and live right next door to each other, they do

24:31

not always get along. And this may

24:33

be a reason why people in this area are

24:35

being targeted. It could be part

24:37

of the continued feud between Pakistan

24:40

and India.

24:41

Tharoun actually saw a video of someone who recorded

24:43

one of these scam calls. The scammer he called

24:46

someone and the guy on the other

24:48

side of the phone, he recognized him, hey,

24:51

I know you are a scammer. You've been calling to people

24:53

in such a way and collecting the money. Why would

24:55

you do that? And the scammer, he

24:57

just got straight forward and said, hey,

24:59

you know, everything is not going in Pakistan.

25:03

We don't get any jobs. We

25:05

are like unemployed. So in

25:07

any way, we have to get the money from the people.

25:10

So this is the easiest way we can get

25:12

money from the people.

25:13

The language difference between Punjabi spoken

25:16

in Pakistan and India is close

25:18

enough that it can trick a lot of people. Yes,

25:20

because there are some parts in the Punjab

25:23

who are like on the border

25:25

side of the Pakistan so their accent

25:27

in the Punjab is kind of similar.

25:30

So

25:31

you cannot really tell. As

25:36

Tharoun researched this scam more, he

25:38

saw some other methods scammers were trying to do. Another

25:41

one he saw was where the scammer says this. Hey,

25:43

I'm coming in India or Punjab in

25:46

the next few months and I want

25:48

to send some money to you so that

25:50

you can keep it safe because if I send

25:52

to my family, they will just spend it all.

25:56

And so the target gets some kind

25:58

of confidence that OK. he's

26:01

sending me the money so it is kind

26:03

of legitimate. And the

26:05

target says, okay, I will send you

26:07

money through Western Union or any other

26:09

mode of transfer and I will

26:11

let you know.

26:12

Now of course, the scammer does not actually

26:15

send this money to the victim. What they

26:17

do instead is they get a different scammer to

26:19

call up the victim and pose as

26:21

the bank or Western Union and say something

26:24

like, hello, this is the bank. We're calling to

26:26

let you know that there's been a large deposit in your name.

26:28

Someone has just put $9,000 into your account and

26:31

it's ready for you to pick up at any time. But

26:34

then before that person can leave the house

26:36

and go get the money, they get another

26:38

call from the same scammer once again.

26:41

So he gets another call

26:43

and he says, hey, have you got the money? And

26:45

he said, yes,

26:46

I got the money, I got a call from the bank. So,

26:49

okay, so everything going down really

26:51

well. And in the end he says, hey, I

26:54

have a friend living

26:56

in your area, maybe other side. And

26:58

he got into trouble and he needs some

27:01

money as quick as possible. So

27:03

can you send him some amount of the money that I

27:05

sent you earlier? Let's say one lakh

27:08

Indian rupees or $2,000. After

27:10

a while, he sent some money to the scammer

27:14

and by the time the target realizes

27:16

that he got scammed, it's over,

27:19

it's still late for him to know.

27:21

Oh man, those jerks. These

27:23

scammers are sneaky.

27:25

But again, this scam requires a bit

27:28

of research by the scammers to

27:30

be so successful. You gotta

27:32

know someone's details to convince them who

27:35

you're impersonating. And it sounds

27:37

like Tarun's cousin was tricked into thinking

27:39

the scammer was Tarun by giving

27:41

him details that only Tarun would

27:43

know. And I wonder, how

27:46

did they get that info? Did they

27:48

find Tarun on Facebook or something? And that's

27:50

why they decided to target him?

27:52

I get this could be a possibility, but usually I

27:54

don't share a lot of details about my

27:56

family on the social media. So

27:58

there

27:59

could be.

27:59

maybe there could be another way. Well, if the

28:02

scammers are not grabbing people's details from social media,

28:04

what other methods are there to get info on someone?

28:07

Tarun kept watching videos about these scammers

28:09

on Facebook and noticed something

28:11

in one video. In one scam call,

28:14

the victim was like, no, no, no, I'm

28:16

no sucker. I'm not getting scammed by you.

28:19

So

28:20

the target, he said, no, I'm not gonna, they

28:22

have fallen into such a trap with you. You had

28:24

to drop this, you had to drop this side. This

28:27

is not good. But the scammer said, yes,

28:30

like, we have to earn some

28:32

money in some way. So the scammer,

28:35

he asked him

28:37

to do in favor, the target. He

28:39

said, if you could give me details

28:41

of your relatives or anyone in your friend's

28:43

circle, and whatever the money I will

28:45

get from them, I will send you the 20 or 25%

28:48

of it. Whoa,

28:51

whoa, whoa, whoa. So the scammer's making

28:53

what deal again? Yes, he

28:55

said, if you give me details of

28:57

your, like anyone in your family

29:00

or anyone in friend's circle, whatever the

29:03

money I would get from them, by scamming

29:05

them, I would send you like 20 or 25% of it. So

29:09

this is like a win-win situation. Why would

29:11

somebody give that up? Oh, because they want 25% of it.

29:14

Man, that's messed up that, to say, oh

29:16

yeah, you can scam my cousin. Yes,

29:19

so then remember, I told you that how,

29:22

they said, I guess this might be the way

29:25

scammer who scammed my cousin. He might've caught

29:28

some details about me and my cousin,

29:30

maybe from my relatives, because

29:32

I know them how they are. Not

29:35

blaming them, but I think this

29:39

has more possibility.

29:40

Dang. Think through

29:43

your family relatives for a moment. You

29:45

think there's anyone in your family or friends

29:47

that would give your details to a scammer in

29:49

hopes to make a few hundred dollars from it? I

29:52

mean, your family wouldn't be scamming you directly. They'd

29:55

only be giving information about you, like

29:57

what city you're in or what children you

29:59

have. what jobs you have,

30:01

just enough

30:02

information to impersonate you on a basic

30:04

level. And of course, phone numbers. I

30:07

know there are people in my family that

30:09

may do it. One of my cousins

30:12

is currently homeless. And last

30:14

we spoke, we got into a fight. Who

30:16

knows what that kid's out there doing for cash right now.

30:18

I don't know. I just think

30:20

that this is wild that scammers

30:23

are getting caught in the act, but then offering

30:25

to pay you for information on

30:28

any targets that you can give them offering 25% of

30:30

the cut even. And you know, now that

30:33

I think of it, that's probably a scam too. If

30:35

you give them information, you are probably

30:37

never going to see your cut of the money. I mean,

30:40

did your cousin open a police report or anything? I

30:43

guess not, because if

30:45

he went for

30:47

the guy, there would be no help from the

30:49

police, I would say. I heard from

30:51

some people on Facebook, like they

30:54

got scammed around $10,000, $15,000,

30:56

$13,000 in

30:59

Punjab. And they reported

31:01

an FIR to the police, but I never

31:04

heard any of them getting to the

31:06

scammer. So I don't

31:09

really think that police would ever make

31:11

any effort to catch the car,

31:13

because they have a lot of stuff to do.

31:16

So people in Punjab who are scammed for more than $10,000 can

31:19

submit an FIR. And that's the first incident

31:21

report, which is the first thing you should do to register

31:24

an issue with the police in India. But

31:26

then a lot of times, nothing happens of

31:28

it. I guess this is why it's rising

31:31

in popularity, because it's so easy to get away with.

31:33

I don't even understand the border situation

31:35

enough down there to know what

31:38

region has jurisdiction over each other, or if

31:40

anything can be done about this. I mean,

31:42

suppose they do track this to be someone from Pakistan.

31:45

Can the Indian police arrest someone in Pakistan?

31:48

Would the Pakistani police do something with that information?

31:50

I have no idea. But

31:52

I still think if you're a victim of a scam

31:54

and lose money, it's a good step to issue a police

31:57

report if you can. There have been

31:58

some cases where

31:59

as Rakat and you may be the person

32:02

with the information that can help catch them. I

32:04

don't know the stats. I imagine it's a slim

32:06

chance that your report will do anything, but

32:08

I still think having that hope

32:10

can sometimes keep you going.

32:12

Once Tarun got privy that

32:14

this kind of scam is going out there in the wild, he

32:17

became a target of the scam himself.

32:19

Even myself, I got two calls

32:22

from a number in the Pakistan. It

32:24

has the AD code of plus 92

32:27

and somebody said, hey, how are you? I

32:31

said, yeah, I'm good. How are you? He said,

32:33

hey, recognize me. I said, yes, you are that

32:35

person. I

32:38

just made up some scenario. I said, hey, what

32:40

happened to your wife? I heard he ran

32:42

away with some other random guy. He said,

32:45

oh, yes, it happened. It happened. I

32:47

asked him, hey, tell me how, explain to me how it

32:49

happened.

32:49

He said, no, no, no, I will

32:52

explain that to you later. Then he hung up the phone. I

32:54

think this is a brilliant way to combat this kind of scam to

32:57

do a verification check of some kind. You

32:59

could ask them to confirm something that only they

33:01

knew, like you could trick them and say something

33:03

like, oh, do you remember that one summer we went to

33:05

the lake together? That was fun, wasn't it? And when they

33:07

say, yeah, yeah, I do, but you never went

33:09

to the lake with that person. Now you know they're lying.

33:13

I know it's my dad. We have some code words that if

33:16

one of us is in trouble, we have to say the code word to

33:18

prove it's you. And I've told him if

33:20

he ever gets kidnapped and someone calls me to

33:22

pay the ransom, I my immediate reaction

33:24

is to not believe them unless I

33:26

hear the code word. So you got to tell your kidnappers

33:29

the code word if you want me to send you money. Otherwise,

33:31

I'm just hanging up the phone. And he's cool

33:33

with that.

33:34

But stories like this

33:35

really do bring my focus back

33:37

to looking after our digital privacy online.

33:41

And someone who knows a lot about digital privacy is

33:43

Naomi.

33:44

I'm Naomi Brockwell. I run

33:46

a media platform called MVTV

33:48

Media, and we focus on helping

33:51

people protect their privacy online.

33:53

In this story, the the scammer

33:56

seems to know quite a lot of information about

33:59

the victim. that they're targeting, right? They

34:01

know this person's kids' names,

34:04

where they live, who, what

34:07

cousins they have, they know from abroad,

34:09

and this sort of thing. Do you have any idea

34:12

where a scammer might

34:14

be getting this kind of information from?

34:16

I think we give away all of this data

34:19

voluntarily online. I think we're incredibly

34:21

lax with how we don't

34:24

protect our data these days. I

34:27

interviewed someone recently, it was an interesting story.

34:30

He bought a new car, and

34:31

it was a used car actually. And

34:34

just by looking through the details,

34:35

in the car he

34:37

was able to find out the name of the previous

34:40

owner, that the previous owner had two daughters,

34:42

where they went to school, that she was a breast cancer

34:44

survivor. All of this stuff was literally

34:47

just the data that the car itself

34:49

was collecting. So now if you zoom

34:51

out and look at all of the information

34:53

that we're posting on social media of our own

34:55

volition, just handing it over all the personal

34:58

details about our lives, it's incredible

35:01

how much information we are

35:03

just giving away online. It's incredibly

35:05

easy for anyone to find out anything they

35:07

want about us these days. And that's mainly

35:10

our fault. It's mainly because we are really

35:12

not thinking about how to protect our data

35:14

online. I think we need a major mind

35:17

shift in this digital age.

35:20

And we need to really start to be aware of

35:23

how much information we're putting out there.

35:25

I don't

35:25

think it's always your fault. Do you

35:28

ever think about that of just like, we're

35:30

living in this world where stuff

35:32

just gets leaked and it's not your fault?

35:34

That's definitely part of it. But I do

35:36

think that individuals do have to take some responsibility

35:39

for how they navigate their digital lives. I

35:42

think we need to start being naive. I

35:44

mean, it's 2023, we've had computers

35:46

for a long time now, we've had the internet for a long

35:48

time now. And I don't

35:50

wanna blame people for not being aware

35:53

that their data is being collected by

35:55

every corner of the internet.

35:58

There's, you know, third party trackers. everywhere,

36:00

there are data brokers, scraping all of our

36:02

financial data, all of our

36:04

legal records, all of our social media

36:06

posts. I mean, there are nefarious

36:10

actors out there who want to collect our

36:12

data. There are non-ne nefarious actors who just

36:14

want to monetize our data. And so

36:16

I don't think

36:18

that it's our fault, but I also don't think

36:20

that we need to be passive victims. I don't

36:23

think that it's okay

36:25

for people in 2023 to say, you

36:28

know, oh, well, you know, I putting all

36:30

this information out there publicly, but

36:33

I didn't think someone would use it against me. Because

36:36

clearly this has been used against people all the

36:38

time. If we just zoom out, like not even talk

36:40

about scammers, if we just think about

36:42

the $100 billion industry or

36:45

potentially trillion dollar industry that is the

36:47

data brokerage industry, it's incredible.

36:50

They are making so much

36:52

of seeing them out in the body, just from collecting

36:54

our data, from scraping social media, from

36:57

ingesting data breaches that are

36:59

out there, from scraping our financial

37:01

records. I mean, our banks are selling all of our

37:03

records, right? We know this, they

37:06

tell us when we sign up, they literally say,

37:08

you are giving us permission to hand over all your

37:10

financial data to third parties.

37:12

Wait, banks, hold on a second. This

37:14

bank thing is frustrating

37:16

to me. I think like banks are a private

37:19

sanctuary and they should not be doing this. What do

37:21

you know about this?

37:22

There are a lot of laws that have been passed

37:24

that basically say, listen, your

37:27

data is not your data anymore.

37:29

It is something that you've voluntarily

37:31

handed over to this third party and they're allowed to do

37:34

with it what they want. And

37:36

financial data used to be this sanctuary

37:39

and you have famous places like Switzerland

37:42

where they'd have these banking laws

37:44

and you'd have this private contract

37:46

with your financial institution there and you'd

37:49

think that everything you did was just between you and

37:51

the bank. And that's just not the way of the world. Not only

37:53

has the US actually broken

37:56

the Swiss banking system, but they've

37:58

completely undermined. those

38:00

laws in the US as well. So

38:02

now we're in a situation where, due

38:05

to things like the third party doctrine, the

38:07

government says that if you hand

38:10

over your data to a third party, you

38:12

no longer have any reasonable expectation

38:14

of privacy with that data. And that includes financial

38:17

institutions because governments

38:19

want that data as well. And so it's not

38:21

in their interest to create laws that

38:23

are gonna protect your data. It's in their best

38:25

interest to make it as easy as possible for

38:28

these organizations to not have liability for

38:30

handing over your data. So that's the

38:32

way that the arrangement goes.

38:36

I just recently learned about this third party

38:38

doctrine and it's really frustrating

38:40

me. Yeah, as Naomi says, the US

38:43

has a legal principle that says if

38:45

you voluntarily give your data to

38:47

another company, you no longer

38:50

have the reasonable expectation

38:53

of privacy. What? Excuse

38:55

me?

38:56

This essentially means that every email

38:59

I've ever written is no longer private. Every

39:01

private message I've ever sent is not

39:03

actually private. My phone's GPS

39:05

location isn't private.

39:07

This is awful. But

39:10

not only that, the US government made all

39:12

kinds of laws which require you to give

39:14

up certain information to do things like open

39:16

bank accounts. So yeah, all your

39:18

banking information is no longer considered

39:21

private due to this third party

39:23

doctrine. And guess what the downstream

39:26

consequences of this is? Criminals,

39:28

scammers, stalkers, thieves, and people

39:31

who want to target you can now

39:33

easily get data on you. The more

39:35

we become a digital society, the

39:38

more important it is to protect our digital

39:40

privacy that the laws seem

39:42

to be going in the opposite direction. And

39:45

it makes me furious. Have you

39:47

ever heard this term, oh,

39:50

nobody would target me.

39:51

Yeah, everyone says it. It's very

39:54

nice.

40:00

people haven't quite adjusted to

40:02

the digital world. We're used

40:04

to nefarious actors

40:06

maybe being there in person. Someone

40:09

who's going to hold you up at gunpoint. They're physically

40:11

there. We understand the threat model. It's

40:14

a person, they need, they want to steal your handbag

40:16

or whatever. But we live in a digital age

40:18

where the people who are attacking

40:20

us are not next to us. They're

40:23

sometimes over the other side of the world, and

40:26

sometimes they're just completely indiscriminate

40:28

about who they target. So when someone says no

40:31

one's going to target me, I'm unimportant. I

40:33

think that it is naive to

40:36

underestimate your digital significance

40:38

in today's world. Because the current

40:41

situation is that scammers are

40:43

not targeting you. They're indiscriminate

40:46

with how they attack victims. They

40:49

are casting a giant wide net

40:51

that you will inevitably fall into.

40:54

And this is just the current reality. It

40:56

doesn't matter whether you think you're important or not. It doesn't

40:58

matter whether you think that you're a worthy

41:01

target, whether you're rich or anything,

41:03

whether you have status, you're going to be targeted

41:05

because you will be inevitably captured

41:08

in this very wide net. That's

41:10

just how scammers work. The reason they do this is

41:13

because there's a very low

41:15

cost to them casting this wide net. And

41:17

there is a potential big payoff.

41:19

Even if a tiny fraction of people fall

41:21

for their scams, there's a huge

41:23

potential payoff.

41:25

So what can we do to be a self-advocate

41:27

of our digital privacy?

41:28

There are lots of things that you can do

41:30

to make a big impact on

41:32

your digital privacy. First of all, be

41:35

mindful of the companies, the

41:37

services that you're using. Start

41:39

using tools and services online that

41:41

don't collect your data. Your email

41:43

provider, think about which email provider

41:45

you're using. Are they a company that is capturing

41:48

the contents of every one of

41:50

your emails and they're analyzing it and adding

41:52

it to a profile about you and selling it? Maybe

41:54

stop using that. Maybe start using

41:56

a company that respects

41:58

the individual's privacy.

41:59

and take

42:00

that data out of their own reach. The same

42:02

thing with private messaging apps. Start

42:05

to choose apps that protect your privacy

42:07

and don't actually access the contents

42:10

of your messages. You can start using other privacy

42:12

tools online. All of this stuff goes a

42:14

really long way to helping you protect

42:17

your digital identity because the

42:19

more careless you are with putting

42:21

your data out in the wild, allowing these companies

42:23

to collect it, the easier it is

42:26

for scammers to target you. So you need

42:28

to start being mindful of that and making smarter

42:30

choices

42:30

in your digital life.

42:37

Susan B. Anthony changed

42:40

the world. She grew up in a

42:42

time when women did not have the right

42:45

to vote. It was illegal even. And

42:47

she said, screw that, and went down and

42:49

voted anyway. And

42:51

she was arrested for voting. She

42:54

was thrown in jail, and she went to court, and she

42:56

was found guilty, but she refused to pay

42:58

her fine.

43:00

She had to

43:01

break the law, to go against

43:03

the government in order to make

43:06

change happen. And now,

43:08

she's highly celebrated, even

43:11

to the point that her face is on the quarter.

43:16

I think about her sometimes, and I wonder, what

43:19

should I be doing that's wrong

43:22

but right? Now,

43:24

what I keep thinking about is our

43:27

digital privacy. The government is

43:29

stripping away our privacy from us.

43:31

Corporations are being so grabby

43:34

of our personal data in a predatory way,

43:36

and they do it so much that it just

43:38

seems normal at this point. But

43:41

they are wrong. So

43:43

what's the right thing to do? I

43:47

imagine a world where our privacy actually

43:49

matters, and it's not some meaningless double talk.

43:52

Companies who actually take your privacy seriously,

43:54

are companies that either don't want your data at all,

43:57

or encrypt it in such a way that they can't even see

43:59

it, even if they... wanted. This way,

44:01

no amount of data breaches or subpoenas can

44:03

expose you. And you don't have to worry about these

44:06

companies looking at your stuff, sharing your

44:08

stuff or selling your stuff, because

44:10

it's all garbled. And only you can

44:12

ungarble it. Isn't that the

44:15

normal you'd rather see in the world?

44:18

Companies like Google, Apple and Facebook

44:21

all say that they take your privacy

44:23

seriously, but then they proceed

44:26

to collect every data

44:28

point about you that they can.

44:31

Your location, your contacts, your address,

44:33

your phone number, your work history, your sexual orientation,

44:36

the car you drive, political affiliations, financial

44:38

data, all communications with your friends

44:40

and family. And then they analyze

44:42

this and study you. And then they store

44:45

it all in a database so they can keep building a profile

44:47

on you. All this data is a huge

44:50

liability for them and for you.

44:52

And they absolutely 100% positively don't

44:54

need any of

44:56

it to do what they do. I've

44:58

had enough of this and switched from an Android phone

45:00

to a privacy phone. I exclusively use

45:03

end to end encryption for all my text messaging where

45:05

nobody can see the chats, but me and the person I'm

45:07

sending it to. And I moved my email to

45:09

one that encrypts my emails on their server so

45:11

they can't even read them. I stopped using search

45:14

engines that try to learn everything about me. And I switched

45:16

to ones that collect zero data on their users. I've

45:18

stopped using browsers that send my web history

45:20

somewhere. I always use a VPN and I'm

45:23

so mad at banks for giving my financial

45:25

data away that I'm ready to just start using cryptocurrency

45:28

everywhere I can or go back to using cash.

45:30

I'm exercising my rights and I'm being

45:32

self advocate of my digital privacy. And

45:35

I want you to be a self advocate

45:38

to major tech

45:40

companies aren't going to give you privacy. The

45:42

government isn't going to give you

45:44

privacy, but you can

45:47

take it. I need

45:49

you to take it. Take

45:51

your digital privacy seriously

45:55

because you know it's the right

45:57

thing to do. A

46:13

huge thank you to Tarun for coming on the

46:15

show and sharing this story with us. I particularly

46:17

love this story because it gave me a glimpse into a pocket

46:20

of the world that I had little knowledge of

46:22

and I feel smarter from having met him. Oh,

46:24

and thank you to Naomi Brockwell for coming

46:26

on and telling us about digital privacy. She always

46:28

gets me so revved up about it. She's

46:30

got an awesome YouTube channel called NBTV

46:33

Media, which can really level up your digital

46:36

privacy. And there's a book I also recommend

46:38

for protecting your online privacy, which is called Extreme

46:41

Privacy What It Takes to Disappear. I'll

46:43

have links to all this in the show notes. The

46:45

show is made by me, the Bloodhound Knight, Jack

46:48

Le Cider. This episode was produced by the two-handed

46:50

backslashing Tristan Ledger, mixing

46:52

done by Proximity Sound. And a big thanks to all

46:54

the voice actors we had on this one. Our theme music

46:57

is created by the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Oh

47:00

no, my robot's trying to

47:02

run away. Quick, grab the botnet.

47:05

This is Darknet Diaries. Thank

47:26

you.