Podchaser Logo
Charts
Ep. 418  Fat Loss Myths, Muscle Matters & Diet Break Strategies Explained with Dr. Bill Campbell

Ep. 418 Fat Loss Myths, Muscle Matters & Diet Break Strategies Explained with Dr. Bill Campbell

Released Saturday, 30th November 2024
Good episode? Give it some love!
Ep. 418  Fat Loss Myths, Muscle Matters & Diet Break Strategies Explained with Dr. Bill Campbell

Ep. 418 Fat Loss Myths, Muscle Matters & Diet Break Strategies Explained with Dr. Bill Campbell

Ep. 418  Fat Loss Myths, Muscle Matters & Diet Break Strategies Explained with Dr. Bill Campbell

Ep. 418 Fat Loss Myths, Muscle Matters & Diet Break Strategies Explained with Dr. Bill Campbell

Saturday, 30th November 2024
Good episode? Give it some love!
Rate Episode

Episode Transcript

Transcripts are displayed as originally observed. Some content, including advertisements may have changed.

Use Ctrl + F to search

0:02

Welcome to Everyday Wellness Podcast. I'm

0:04

your host, Nurse Practitioner Cynthia Thurlow.

0:07

This podcast is designed to educate, empower,

0:10

and inspire you to achieve your health

0:12

and wellness goals. My goal

0:14

and intent is to provide you with

0:16

the best content and conversations from leaders

0:18

in the health and wellness industry each

0:21

week and impact over a million lives.

0:29

They had the honor of connecting with

0:31

the delightful Dr. Bill Campbell. He

0:33

is a professor and director of

0:36

the Performance and Physique Enhancement Lab

0:38

at the University of South Florida.

0:40

His research focuses on helping people

0:42

optimize their physiques within a maintainable

0:44

lifestyle. He also created Body by

0:47

Science, which is a research review

0:49

that summarizes the latest and best

0:51

research focusing on fat loss and

0:53

building muscle. Today, we talked about

0:55

some of the biggest misconceptions and

0:57

mistakes regarding fat loss, effective

1:00

ways of measuring body fat

1:02

versus lean mass, textbook averages

1:04

of body fat percentages of

1:06

men and women, and differentiating

1:08

between essential body fat versus

1:10

visceral body fat, the

1:12

mechanisms that drive hunger and

1:15

slowed metabolism when your body fat

1:17

is way too low, the

1:19

impact of crash dieting and yo-yo dieting,

1:22

the menopause transition and what contributes

1:25

to weight loss resistance, concerns

1:27

related to protecting muscle, which

1:29

really focuses in on strength

1:32

training, adequate protein intake, and

1:34

lifestyle. His specific concerns surrounding

1:37

time restricted and intermittent fasting if

1:39

you're not getting adequate protein intake,

1:41

defining what diet breaks are, and

1:43

lastly, lifestyle, which includes some of

1:45

his favorite supplements. Not surprisingly, one

1:48

of them is creatine monohydrate. I

1:50

know you will enjoy this conversation

1:52

as much as I did recording

1:54

it. Welcome,

1:58

Dr. Campbell. I know

2:01

we've been, it's taken a couple of months to

2:03

coordinate our calendars, but really looking forward to this

2:05

discussion. Yeah, me too. Thank

2:07

you very much for the invitation. Yeah. So

2:10

as a researcher, I'm curious, are

2:12

there pet peeves or

2:14

common misconceptions surrounding fat loss?

2:16

Do you see, you know,

2:18

information on social media or

2:20

well-meaning social media influencers that

2:22

kind of extrapolate upon kind

2:24

of broad level concepts that

2:26

you think are like kind

2:28

of pet peeves for you?

2:31

Yeah, I don't know about pet peeves, but there

2:33

are things that I constantly see. And not to

2:35

say I don't have a lot of pet peeves,

2:37

I do. But

2:39

for research, I have

2:42

to always put myself, well, what if I

2:44

wasn't a scientist? How would I think about

2:46

things? And I would think no differently than

2:48

the masses. Now, I will say this, a

2:50

major pet peeve I have is researchers who

2:53

have conflicts of interest who don't

2:55

disclose them. And I

2:57

never, I'm always happy

2:59

when scientists supplement their

3:02

salary with selling supplements,

3:04

books, programs, whatever. But

3:06

in certain situations, there's a clear

3:08

conflict with what they're researching and

3:11

what they're selling. And again, that's

3:13

perfectly fine. But when it's hidden,

3:15

there's a pet peeve since you asked. Let

3:18

me move to just what I

3:20

see a lot of what I call

3:22

general population people doing. So

3:24

let's, I'm a fat loss researcher. So this is

3:26

my scope. So they'll do X,

3:29

Y, or Z diet, and it works for

3:31

them. And they'll

3:33

say, okay, this is the one that everybody should

3:35

do. And as a

3:37

scientist, it's like, well, that worked for

3:39

you, but so likely, so would have

3:41

eight other options had you stuck to

3:43

that diet. Or somebody

3:45

will start taking a particular supplement and

3:47

they'll go on a diet and they'll

3:49

start an exercise program. And they're

3:52

getting better sleep. And then they'll

3:54

say, man, since I've been sleeping, I have

3:57

really lost all this fat. Sleep

3:59

is important. And sleep is important.

4:02

Sleep is very high on my list. But

4:04

when you have all of these different

4:06

variables coming into the equation, a

4:09

lot of people are just ignorant and they think,

4:12

okay, they just latch on to one item. And

4:15

it's like, well, that wasn't the only thing.

4:17

So there's ignorance and pet

4:19

peeves. Yeah. Well, and it's interesting

4:22

for listeners, whether they know this or not,

4:24

there's some events if I speak at them,

4:26

especially medical conferences, even podcast sponsors, I have

4:28

to disclose upfront, although I make

4:30

it a habit of never discussing my podcast sponsors

4:33

when I'm talking at a medical event. But I

4:35

agree with you about the conflicts of interest. And

4:38

this is the power of the end of one as

4:40

it pertains to if something worked for one person, that's

4:42

great. But it doesn't per se mean that it works

4:44

for everyone. And I think about one

4:46

thing in particular as a clinician, I've many friends

4:48

that have had a lot of great success with

4:51

ketogenic diets as an example. Yeah. And

4:53

ketogenic diets, if that works for you, that's great. But

4:55

if I look at the research on the

4:58

gut microbiome and people that don't do well

5:00

on a ketogenic diet more often than not,

5:02

it can have a lot to do with

5:04

the composition of microbes in the gut microbiome.

5:06

And so there's many, many things that can

5:09

impact success or lack thereof with a particular

5:11

intervention. So I 100% agree with you. Now,

5:14

when we're talking about body

5:16

fat and for women of a certain

5:19

age, certainly it becomes probably more problematic

5:21

or bothersome as we're navigating perimenopause and

5:23

amenopause because there are so many physiologic

5:26

changes that are ongoing. One of the

5:28

most common questions I receive is what's

5:30

the most effective way to measure it?

5:34

And I know this is, you know, there are

5:36

bod pods that are, you know, accessible

5:38

for people, you know, DEXA scans. From

5:40

what I understand about DEXA scans, it

5:42

can be hugely influential as

5:44

to who is actually reading the scan

5:46

to determine, you know, body fat percentages.

5:49

As a scientist, what do you think

5:51

is the most effective way of measuring

5:53

body fat overall? Yeah, so I

5:56

tend to not kind of

5:58

gravitate towards research-based devices. So

6:00

those would be DEXA, BodPods,

6:03

MyLab uses InBody or BIA,

6:06

the research grade. We

6:09

also use ultrasound. So those are

6:12

the best devices on the market, but none

6:14

of them are perfect. And you make a

6:16

good point. I was recently

6:18

working with somebody and they got a DEXA

6:20

at one facility and then they went to

6:22

a different facility and they thought, Hey, why

6:25

did I gain all this fat? And I haven't been doing the things

6:27

that would make me think that I have gained fat. And

6:29

my answer was you didn't gain fat. You

6:32

switched DEXA machines one, two, there

6:34

were different people that were doing

6:37

the different technicians analyzing those scans because

6:39

you have to, it's not just that

6:41

you get on the table and it

6:43

spits out a number, you have to

6:45

adjust the, I'll just call them the

6:47

lines when you're doing this. So

6:49

you have a lot of variations.

6:52

So I tell people, let's

6:54

make sure that whatever device

6:56

you choose, InBody,

6:58

DEXA, BodPod, skin folds. So let's just say

7:00

it is a skin fold or DEXA, just

7:02

make sure the person doing it is always

7:05

the same person and that they are a

7:08

well-trained individual. So the next thing I

7:10

say is you always want to do

7:12

these under standardized conditions. So

7:14

the best thing what we do in my

7:17

research lab is first thing in the morning

7:19

or in the morning after an overnight fast.

7:21

And ideally you did not exercise the day

7:23

prior. And then the next

7:25

thing that I say is don't get hung

7:27

up on whatever number you are.

7:31

If you've been dieting, just look at changes

7:33

because if I lay down on a DEXA

7:35

now or I did a BodPod or I

7:37

did an InBody, my body fat might

7:39

be 22 on one, 17 on another and 19 on

7:41

another. But

7:43

if I dieted for six weeks and

7:46

I lose fat, all three of them, regardless

7:48

of what they said today, they're all going

7:50

to show that I've lost fat. One might

7:52

show I lost 2%, 3%. So

7:56

just to be the most helpful, pick

7:59

one device. and

10:00

they are not. So 27%. What

10:02

does that look like, in terms

10:04

of morphology? Well, that woman would

10:06

not have abs. A male, the

10:08

reference male at 15% would

10:10

not have defined abs at that level. And

10:13

by the way, the reason women would have

10:15

reference woman has more fat than

10:17

a male is because of essential body fat,

10:19

so more natural fat in breast tissue around

10:22

the reproductive organs that men

10:24

don't have. So the

10:27

average, and I don't

10:29

even, I'm not saying unhealthy, just average is

10:31

often higher than what a lot of people

10:33

think. Well, I

10:35

think our perceptions get so skewed from what we

10:38

see, you know, if it's a fitness competitor, what

10:40

we see online, what we see in the movies,

10:42

you know, those are people that it is their

10:44

job to look a particular way. But I'm sure

10:46

when they're not filming a movie

10:48

or a series, they may look very, very

10:50

different. And I think the other thing is

10:53

you mentioned, you know, the concept of sustainability,

10:55

you know, those fitness competitors look like that

10:57

one or two days out of the year.

10:59

What is it about fat

11:02

mass or body fat that makes it

11:04

challenging to sustain at too low of

11:06

a level over time? Yeah,

11:08

that's a great question. And

11:11

essentially, when you get your

11:13

body fat to very low

11:15

levels, essentially, your body works

11:17

in every domain it possibly

11:19

can to fight against sustaining

11:21

that. So your

11:23

drive to eat or your

11:25

hunger levels go up, your

11:27

metabolism goes down. So you

11:29

and your cues to food

11:31

increase, you have

11:33

again, it's the biology

11:36

go works against extreme,

11:38

lean levels. And now the opposite

11:41

is also true. As we approach

11:43

like morbid obesity, the body will

11:45

speed up metabolism to

11:47

help prevent the body to keep gaining

11:49

weight. So if whatever extreme you put

11:51

your body in, the body will naturally

11:54

try to work back to

11:56

homeostasis. If

11:58

you're a listener to this podcast. know that

12:00

I've never endorsed, discussed, or even talked about

12:02

mattresses, but I have to share with you.

12:04

I've been using the

12:06

Helix mattress over the last several

12:09

months, and I've

12:11

been delightfully surprised with

12:13

improvements in things as

12:15

simple as deep sleep metrics,

12:17

my HRV, and overall waking

12:19

up better rested than I

12:22

was with my old school

12:24

mattress. I think for far

12:26

too many middle-aged adults, we just assume that

12:28

we're going to wake up with aches and

12:30

pains. We assume that we're just not going

12:32

to get really good sleep quality. So

12:34

I've very conscientiously

12:38

been wanting to share information

12:40

about Helix mattresses, but

12:42

now I can officially share it and also

12:44

identify that they make their mattresses here in

12:47

the United States. They're not made overseas. They're

12:49

made in the US, custom ordered

12:51

for each person. And I'd

12:53

love to share with you that they

12:55

have a November offer and I know

12:57

there are plenty of us that are

13:00

probably thinking about it's time to replace

13:02

either our mattress, maybe a child's mattress,

13:05

a loved one's mattress at the end of the year. Now's

13:07

the time to get 25% off-site

13:10

wide and two free dream pillows

13:12

with any mattress purchase, as

13:15

well as a free bedding bundle,

13:17

which is two dream pillows, a

13:19

sheet set, and a mattress protector

13:21

with any lux or elite mattress

13:23

order. You can go directly to

13:25

helixsleep.com slash

13:28

everyday wellness. Again, that's helixsleep.com/everyday

13:31

wellness. If you decide to

13:33

proceed with purchasing a mattress,

13:35

I want to hear how

13:38

you've been enjoying improved sleep

13:40

metrics, just feeling better rested

13:43

when you wake up. Both

13:45

my husband and I and our youngest son have

13:47

been sleeping on the mattresses the last few months.

13:50

And as I stated, we've been

13:52

delightfully surprised as well as we

13:55

love supporting a company that actually

13:57

creates these products here in the

13:59

United States. States. They're not shipped

14:02

from overseas. They're made right here

14:04

in the USA. It's that

14:07

time of year again when stores start

14:09

slashing prices and sales seem to be

14:11

everywhere, but instead of buying that discounted

14:13

TV, why not invest in

14:15

your health? For Cyber Week,

14:17

ZOE, the science and nutrition company, is

14:20

offering 20% off ZOE

14:22

membership, their personalized nutrition program

14:24

that can help you maintain

14:26

a healthy weight, improve

14:28

your gut health, and feel more energetic. To

14:31

get this exclusive discount, use code ZOE20

14:33

at zoe.com. ZOE

14:36

has never done a Cyber Week offer,

14:38

and I'm not sure they'll ever do

14:40

it again. They've also never had one

14:42

this big. So this is your chance

14:44

to try ZOE. I'm a huge fan.

14:46

I also love listening to their podcast.

14:48

As many of you know, the Gut

14:50

Microbiome and everything related to that for

14:52

women in perimenopause and menopause is a

14:54

huge focus of my work. And

14:57

ZOE conducts extensive scientific research

14:59

and uses the results to inform

15:01

their membership program. In a

15:04

randomized controlled trial, participating ZOE members

15:06

reported positive changes to their gut

15:08

microbiome and were four times more

15:11

likely to report better sleep and

15:13

better energy. Who can't benefit from

15:15

that alone? Simply, ZOE is

15:18

one of the best investments you can

15:20

make in your health. Want to get

15:22

your ZOE membership a try? The first

15:24

step is easy. Go to zoe.com. That's

15:26

zoe.com. And

15:28

take the free quiz. Remember to use the code

15:30

ZOE20. That's zoe20 at checkout to get 20%

15:32

off. ZOE's

15:37

Cyber Week discount ends on December 3rd.

15:39

So make the most of it today.

15:41

Go to zoe.com and enter code ZOE20

15:44

for 20% off. And

15:47

how does that, does this play

15:49

into why yo-yo dieting is ultimately

15:51

over time so harmful? I mean,

15:53

I think maybe listeners understanding that

15:55

gaining and losing the same 10,

15:57

15, 20 pounds over

16:00

time can negatively

16:03

impact our metabolism over the

16:05

long haul. Yes.

16:07

And I would say, and I'm going

16:09

to base this on research that we've

16:11

done, or basing it on other people's

16:13

research, the biggest harm to

16:16

maintaining a lean body or

16:18

setting yourself up for failure is

16:22

a crash dieting mindset. So

16:24

Yo-Yo Dieting comes in with that. But even

16:26

worse is, so let

16:29

me just get to the Yo-Yo Dining. The more

16:31

dieting attempts somebody makes, especially if

16:34

they're young, the

16:36

greater the likelihood of being overweight or

16:38

obese later in life. And

16:40

I don't study childhood obesity. I haven't

16:42

done that research, but this is particularly

16:45

concerning to me. If a

16:47

young child is becoming

16:50

overweight or obese, it is very

16:52

difficult for them to have a,

16:54

it's the outlook on their future

16:57

is not optimistic at

16:59

all. And even if they diet

17:01

and lose it, again, you're saying

17:04

Yo-Yo dieting or intentional weight loss

17:06

efforts, those aren't good. Now, so

17:08

that's the Yo-Yo aspect of this.

17:11

So predicts a not ideal future.

17:14

And then the other thing is this crash

17:16

dieting mindset. So the worst thing that somebody

17:19

can do is to starve

17:22

themselves for extended periods of time

17:24

where they lose a lot of

17:26

weight and they're seeing success

17:28

on the scale. But what's actually

17:30

happening is they're losing a lot of

17:32

lean mass and metabolism is being suppressed.

17:35

And what happens then is

17:37

that there's a condition called

17:39

hyperphagia and hyperphagia. As soon

17:42

as your diet is over, you've lost all

17:44

this weight. You have friends, relatives saying, Oh,

17:46

you look great. But you

17:48

starved yourself to that condition. And

17:50

hyperphagia is an extreme desire to

17:52

eat. It is hunger levels that

17:54

are literally off the charts. And

17:56

what happens is as soon as

17:59

your diet is over, over, the crash diet

18:01

is over, you cannot maintain

18:03

your current physique. And you have

18:05

something that leads to fat overshoot,

18:07

which is where within a very

18:10

short period of time, sometimes

18:12

within a fraction of the time that it

18:15

took you to lose this body fat, you

18:17

have now gained more body fat than what

18:19

you had before you started the diet. Now,

18:21

I want to add one more caveat to

18:24

this, because I'm very much

18:26

in the middle of a paradigm shift

18:29

in some of my thinking on fat

18:31

loss. I used to say constantly,

18:34

a slow rate of fat loss

18:36

is ideal. And that

18:38

is true. But I'm now doing

18:40

current research in my lab on I'll

18:43

just call it like fat loss sprints,

18:45

where it's very aggressive for just a

18:47

few days. So

18:49

but here's the key, it is not an

18:51

extended it's what's different between that and crash

18:54

dieting is it's targeted

18:56

for a few days of extreme

18:58

behaviors, very low calories, but pretty

19:00

high protein and high exercise volume,

19:03

mainly aerobic or walking exercise. And

19:06

if we look at hey, what was the fat

19:08

loss over a month? Well, if they only spent

19:10

four or five days doing this, it's still a

19:12

relatively slow rate of fat loss. But

19:15

we've chosen to just accelerate

19:17

it in a very short window and then

19:19

get out. So there's a lot of nuance

19:21

to this. And again, I wouldn't have said

19:24

this two years ago, but I've seen early

19:26

research. And now we've done some of this

19:28

work in my own lab, we haven't published

19:30

all of this yet, which makes me think

19:33

that this may be a better option. And

19:35

we're currently doing this across the menopause transition

19:37

in a case series study in women. Ooh,

19:39

now, so this is a very much of

19:42

interest to listeners, of course, because I feel

19:44

like maybe if women

19:46

didn't have challenges with body fat, or

19:48

feeling like they had weight loss resistance,

19:50

perimenopause is where these things start to

19:53

show up. And I feel like it

19:55

really gets magnified into menopause and post

19:57

menopause. And so talking

19:59

about that research that you're referring to,

20:02

what is it that is so unique about

20:04

women in a low hormone

20:07

state that makes them more susceptible

20:09

to weight loss resistance and increases

20:11

in body fat? I'll start with

20:13

an answer that nobody's gonna like.

20:16

I don't know. And

20:18

I don't think anybody knows for sure.

20:20

And I don't know if you know

20:22

this because I know we started communicating

20:25

maybe two years ago, but I've shifted

20:27

almost all of my research to studying

20:29

weight loss resistance in menopausal aged females.

20:31

I don't know if you knew that.

20:33

We're doing, I think, the largest study

20:35

ever in a survey study in women

20:38

who have a fitness lifestyle that

20:41

are going through menopause. Back to

20:43

your question, why? Well, the easy

20:45

answer is the changing hormonal environment,

20:47

particularly estradiol levels are lower. That

20:50

probably is the lowest hanging fruit

20:53

that could be changed to

20:55

help offset weight loss resistance. The

20:58

other thing is inflammation. So a

21:00

lot of people will take the,

21:02

will have the opinion that going

21:04

through menopause is essentially an inflamed

21:06

state. And if you can address

21:08

that, then you really help this

21:10

weight loss resistance. So I

21:13

can't point to specific studies on the

21:15

inflammation, but some of

21:17

the experts in my

21:19

space that I have a lot of respect for,

21:21

that's what they think. And

21:23

I'm hoping to do, you know, let

21:25

me just say the question you asked

21:27

is the question that I am committed

21:30

to at least spending the next 20

21:32

or 30 years of my professional life

21:34

to try to answer. And

21:36

you probably know this, there are

21:38

many fitness professionals, researchers that don't

21:40

even acknowledge the concept

21:42

of weight loss resistance. I

21:45

would say I was in that camp not

21:47

too many years ago. And

21:49

then something very interesting happened. Wife experience.

21:51

My wife is now postmenopausal and she's

21:54

given me permission to share this, but

21:56

she gained weight during this phase of

21:58

her life. And she. could not lose

22:00

it. And guess who she's married to

22:02

a fat loss researcher. And you know,

22:05

she's kind of like my guinea pig, like all

22:07

throughout my career, I've put her on all my

22:10

machines devices and have her do crazy diet for

22:12

the first time she couldn't lose weight. And then

22:14

I'm like, you know, I've heard hundreds

22:16

and hundreds, if not now, thousands of other women

22:18

claim this. Now I'm, I

22:21

cannot deny. She was down to I think we

22:23

had her down to 1100 calories

22:25

for several weeks and would not lose

22:28

weight. So I don't know why

22:30

I think it's probably a

22:32

hormonal transition, particularly estradiol, and probably an

22:34

inflammation state that maybe not even can

22:36

be detected outside of the cell. Again,

22:38

that's why I would love to say,

22:40

Yeah, this study, this study, this study,

22:43

I can't at least not yet. Well,

22:45

I think we all appreciate your transparency

22:47

and love that you willingly share that

22:49

your own personal experiences through your wife.

22:51

I think that one of the things

22:53

that I think definitely contribute to some

22:55

degree of weight loss resistance is this

22:57

loss of muscle mass. So sarcopenia is

22:59

not a question of if but when

23:02

and and I will still say and

23:04

I'll shout it from mountaintops, too

23:06

many of us myself included, did not

23:09

appreciate or value in our 20s and

23:11

30s how important skeletal muscle mass is

23:13

how critically important it is. So as

23:15

we're losing it, we're losing insulin sensitivity,

23:18

I think it's multifactorial. I think there's

23:20

many things that contribute. But

23:22

I definitely think about you know, in

23:24

that low estrogen state high follicular stimulating

23:26

hormone, we're much more catabolic, we're breaking

23:29

down muscle pretty readily, and less

23:31

we're actively working against it. But you

23:34

mentioned protein, and I think protein for

23:36

so many of us, I

23:38

feel like, you know, things come full

23:40

circle. When I was first a clinician,

23:42

it was, you know, everything fats were

23:44

bastardized and eat more heart healthy grains

23:46

and all that stuff and don't eat

23:48

saturated fat ensures hack don't eat butter.

23:50

And, you know, the pendulum is swinging

23:52

back towards you know, protein centric diets.

23:54

And we know protein is helpful for satiety.

23:56

It's helpful for you know, amino acid

23:58

composition when you're working within

24:01

your research thinking about how important

24:03

protein is, what are the things

24:05

that you feel like women need

24:08

to really understand about the benefits?

24:11

And it's not to suggest carbs are bad and

24:13

fat is bad, but why is protein so important

24:15

for us as we're getting older? So the first

24:17

thing, just again, taking a broad

24:19

approach to this, throughout all of my

24:21

weight loss studies that we've done in

24:23

my lab, our primary

24:25

goal is fat loss, but

24:28

we devote every resource available

24:30

to us to protect muscle,

24:33

every resource available because fat loss at

24:35

the expense of of losing muscle mass

24:38

is a recipe for gaining everything back and

24:41

being in a worse situation. So how do

24:43

we protect muscle during a

24:45

fat loss phase or just as we

24:47

age? I'll get to protein,

24:49

but the first thing is resistance

24:52

training. So if

24:54

we are dieting, that's a catabolic

24:56

stimulus on the body. So

24:59

where are areas in our life that

25:01

we can impute an anabolic stimulus? Well,

25:03

that's what resistance training does. And you

25:05

don't have to love resistance training. Minimal

25:09

amounts is very beneficial. So you don't have to live

25:11

in the gym, you don't have to go every day.

25:13

And then the second thing is back

25:16

to your question is a an optimal

25:18

protein intake. So protein

25:20

is an anabolic nutrient, it

25:22

is what builds skeletal muscle.

25:25

And like you said, it also makes you feel fuller. And

25:28

it helps maintain our metabolisms, especially

25:30

when you pair it with resistance

25:32

training. Now, as we get through

25:34

to midlife, what happens is

25:37

what we used to eat with

25:39

protein, when it would stimulate a

25:41

given amount of muscle protein synthesis.

25:43

Well, as we age, as we

25:46

get into our 40s, 50s and

25:48

beyond, everybody, males and females, experience

25:50

something called anabolic resistance. And part

25:52

of that explanation is that protein

25:55

levels do not do

25:57

what they used to do. So we

25:59

need to actually. have more protein as

26:02

we age to get the same anabolic

26:04

stimulus that we did when we were

26:06

younger. Yeah, I think it's

26:08

interesting. I have two athletic teeny boys and

26:10

I will talk to them about how you

26:12

could probably have a whiff of protein and

26:15

that will stimulate muscle protein synthesis versus I

26:17

have to have 40, 50 grams of protein

26:19

because they laugh at me. They're like, why

26:21

are you so fixated on how much protein

26:23

you're consuming? And I just remind them, I'm

26:25

like, I need a good bolus several times

26:27

a day. And perhaps this is a good

26:30

tie into talking about the role of time

26:32

restricted eating, intermittent fasting. What are

26:34

your thoughts, kind of broad concepts on

26:36

this for middle age people? It doesn't

26:38

necessarily have to be for women. Now, for

26:40

full disclosure, I've built a whole platform talking

26:42

about fasting, but I have started to find

26:45

I need a wider feeding window to make

26:47

sure I'm getting enough protein so that I'm

26:49

building muscle. What do you

26:51

feel like or where do you feel like

26:53

time restricted eating can fit into the

26:56

program of weight training, adequate protein

26:58

intake? Can it be? Can they

27:00

exist concurrently is what I'm trying

27:02

to say? Or is time restricted

27:04

eating putting us at risk for

27:06

losing lean body mass? I

27:09

think I have the same perspective you

27:11

do or where you've evolved with this.

27:13

So the potential harm of very short

27:15

feeding windows is that

27:18

you don't have a lot of protein

27:20

distribution. So let me give two different

27:22

scenarios. If somebody's goal is to build

27:25

as much muscle as they possibly can,

27:27

that's their primary goal, then my advice

27:29

would be consume about a

27:32

gram of protein per pound of body

27:34

weight or 0.75 grams

27:36

per pound if getting a gram per pound is

27:38

too difficult. And this would be goal body weight.

27:40

And then once you have that as your, hey,

27:43

this is how much protein I want to aim

27:45

to consume today, if the goal is I want

27:47

to build as much muscle as possible, you

27:50

want to approximately evenly distribute

27:52

that about or

27:54

across three to five protein feedings

27:57

throughout the day. So if

27:59

you're feeding with windows only four hours,

28:02

that's not very evenly distributed. So

28:05

for that person, I would say that

28:08

a time restricted feeding or if we're

28:10

going to call it intermittent fasting, that

28:12

may not be the best approach for

28:14

your stated goal. Now,

28:17

let's look at somebody else and this would describe

28:19

me, I more struggle with

28:22

gaining body fat. And

28:24

I'm actually I mean, I would like

28:27

to build muscle, but I put more

28:29

of my effort into losing fat or

28:31

not gaining fat. So for

28:33

me, and a time restricted feeding

28:36

lifestyle works better for me, I'm not

28:38

hungry in the morning. So I don't

28:40

need in the morning. And

28:43

then I'm as I'm hungry throughout the

28:45

day, I'm able to get those calories

28:47

to other caveats to this. If somebody

28:49

wants to just use a hybrid approach,

28:52

have your feeding window, but just

28:54

have protein when you wake up. That

28:56

way, you're getting this protein bolus or

28:58

an anabolic stimulus. And then the other

29:00

thing, and this was a study that

29:03

I'm referring to that was published early

29:05

last year, where they gave male

29:07

this was I think male and female subjects,

29:09

100 grams of protein

29:11

in one sitting. And previously, a

29:13

lot of the research suggested that

29:15

a lot of this huge amount

29:17

of protein, like over 30 grams

29:19

was wasted. And what this study

29:21

found was it's not wasted at

29:23

all. The problem with those earlier

29:25

studies, they stopped measuring muscle protein

29:27

synthesis three to four hours after

29:29

ingestion, whereas this study went 12

29:31

hours. And what they found was

29:34

100 grams had significant benefits

29:37

to increasing muscle protein synthesis.

29:39

So now I think a

29:41

great application of this for

29:43

somebody who enjoys intermittent fasting

29:46

time restricted feeding on your

29:48

two ends of your feeding

29:50

windows have large protein boluses,

29:53

because we know that the benefits will

29:55

carry during your fasted window. I think

29:57

that's really significant. And it's interesting, you

29:59

know, being in this space, I

30:02

was speaking out against OMAD a long time

30:04

ago and we would get angry messages.

30:06

People were angry, they were disappointed because

30:08

there were people who had gone from

30:10

maybe being obese to being a healthy

30:13

weight by just doing one meal a

30:15

day. And I would remind them, I

30:17

understand how that has allowed you to

30:19

achieve your goals, but over time, how

30:22

much muscle mass did you lose? Because with

30:24

a significant weight loss, you are going to

30:26

have some loss of muscle, you will have

30:29

some loss of fat. The loss of muscle

30:31

I think is potentially more catastrophic. And so

30:33

I just like to remind people that the

30:35

average person cannot in four hours consume enough

30:37

protein to be able to bolster. Although I

30:40

love that addition of that study where you

30:42

get this 12 hour timeframe because

30:44

that's oftentimes a concern is that people will

30:46

say, well, how can you have 60 grams

30:49

of protein in one meal? Aren't you concerned

30:51

that your body can't use it? I was

30:53

like, oh, my body can definitely use it.

30:55

So I think, you know, reassuring people that

30:58

consuming higher protein diets is not then lead

31:00

to, you know, losing out of the benefits

31:02

of protein. Yes, I want to

31:05

add one more another thought that came up.

31:07

A lot of your audience, I think you

31:09

said is females that are plus 35, 30s,

31:12

40s, 50s. There's a few studies where, well, let

31:17

me just be stereotypical for a moment, a

31:19

lot of especially women, they

31:21

consume non optimal

31:24

amounts of protein, very, very limited

31:26

amounts of protein. And in these

31:28

few studies, and I'm thinking of

31:30

two to two, and then

31:32

my lab did one in resistance train

31:35

young people, but these are in middle

31:37

aged or even postmenopausal females when they

31:39

were consuming very small amounts

31:41

of protein. And the only change that

31:43

researchers introduced was increasing protein intake. That

31:45

was the only change. One of these

31:48

was a dieting study. The other one

31:50

was literally just eat more protein. The

31:52

results were and I'll just say, like

31:54

literally surprising to me, they not only

31:57

gained lean mass and they're There's zero

31:59

exercise here, which I used to think

32:01

you have to exercise to build muscle.

32:03

Not at all. And they

32:06

lost body fat. So the

32:08

way that I conceptualize this, the

32:10

biggest improvements in health and body

32:12

composition are when you have somebody

32:14

that's starting with a very low

32:17

amount and just increasing it. Losing

32:19

body fat, even though they're eating

32:21

more calories and gaining muscle mass

32:24

without resistance training. So I kind

32:26

of hear to something called a

32:28

protein anchored flexible dieting approach. But

32:31

protein is the center of my research

32:33

studies and my own personal just how

32:35

I view food for health. I think

32:38

one of my favorite ways to celebrate

32:40

the holidays is lounging at home with

32:42

my most favorite people in the world

32:45

in the most comfortable PJs

32:47

imaginable. Cozy Earth

32:50

pajamas are designed for those cherished

32:52

moments of relaxation, ensuring you feel

32:54

cozy and stylish all season long.

32:56

One of the things that makes

32:58

Cozy Earth unique and

33:00

distinctive is that they love

33:02

to help you create a sanctuary within

33:04

your home and a refuge from the

33:07

demands of the outside world. And they

33:09

understand the significance of finding comfort and

33:11

tranquility in the midst of our hectic

33:13

busy lives. And they really like to

33:15

focus on rejuvenation, unwinding, embracing, and a

33:18

sense of calm. What I

33:20

love is the quality and the temperature

33:22

regulation because let's be honest, how many

33:24

of us in middle age really do

33:27

need breathable, comfortable pajamas to sleep in.

33:29

They also have enhanced fabric that won't

33:31

pill and is guaranteed for 10 years.

33:34

So we're talking about super high quality

33:36

products. So you can go to cozyearth.com/Cynthia

33:38

and use my exclusive 40% off code,

33:40

Cynthia, to

33:42

give the gift of luxury this holiday season.

33:45

And their favorite slogan is wrap

33:47

the ones you love and luxury

33:49

with Cozy Earth. That's cozy earth.com/Cynthia

33:52

and use my exclusive 40% off

33:54

code, Cynthia, to give the gift

33:56

of luxury this holiday season. My

33:59

favorite protein. powder now has

34:01

a brand new flavor completely

34:03

fitting for the fall weather.

34:05

And this is toasted marshmallow.

34:07

It's the flavor of an

34:09

ooey gooey marshmallow without

34:11

all the mess, and it's making

34:14

its entrance just in time for

34:16

all of these fun fall recipes

34:18

and bonfire vibes. You can

34:20

add it to your coffee or hot chocolate for

34:22

the perfect added sweetness. It has 20 grams of

34:24

100% grass-fed whey

34:27

protein, and it's available for a

34:29

limited time. It has zero sugar and only 100

34:31

calories per serving. That

34:33

along with two other family

34:36

favorites right now, the powdered peanut

34:38

butter is delicious. Think

34:40

about the ease of powdered peanut butter

34:42

that allows you to put it in

34:45

shakes, create a fruit drip, a peanut

34:47

butter spread. You can use it in

34:49

pancake batter. Super easy to use

34:52

as well as the caffeinated drinks,

34:55

the energy and focus drinks.

34:57

My youngest son loves the

34:59

lava tropic and the

35:02

island sunrise. They have

35:04

all the things you want, which

35:06

includes a little bit of caffeine

35:08

and no junky ingredients. It also

35:10

has three carbohydrates, so it's low

35:12

in sugar, and he

35:14

uses it for clean energy,

35:17

clean focus, especially when he's

35:19

getting ready to study for

35:21

his SATs and other exams.

35:23

Check out Clean Simple Eats,

35:25

go to cleansimpleeats.com, and

35:28

use code Cynthia10 to get 10% off

35:30

of every purchase. That's

35:33

cleansimpleeats.com, and

35:36

use code Cynthia10 to get 10% off

35:38

of all of your orders. I

35:41

love that protein anchor. I may have to borrow

35:43

that and give attribution. Thank you. breaks,

36:00

or you refer to it as nonlinear

36:02

dieting. What are the benefits? If someone's

36:04

been, whether they've been in time restricted

36:07

eating, they've been at a caloric deficit

36:09

for a period of time, how does

36:12

this dieting break? How

36:14

does this benefit us metabolically

36:16

and otherwise? Dr.

36:18

Justin Marchegiani So most of

36:20

the research, including the research from

36:23

my lab, and we did this

36:25

in resistance-trained women. It

36:28

really, diet breaks don't really

36:30

help physiologically, so they're

36:32

not gonna build more muscle, they're not

36:34

gonna cause more body fat, as when

36:36

calories are the same between somebody who

36:38

never takes a break. But practically

36:41

speaking, and data from my lab and

36:43

from the lab in Australia, we both

36:45

found the same thing with diet breaks.

36:48

The psychological assessments

36:51

of hunger and

36:53

something called disinhibition, and I'll explain what

36:55

that is. They both were significant findings

36:58

in our studies. The reason these are

37:00

important is because my study was six

37:02

weeks, the Australian diet break study, I

37:05

think was 12 weeks. So

37:07

they weren't that long, they weren't really

37:09

long studies. The Australian studies found that

37:12

subjects who had diet breaks every few

37:14

weeks, and let me define that, you're

37:16

on a diet, so you're reducing your

37:18

calories, and every few weeks, you say,

37:21

okay, I'm gonna stop dieting this week

37:23

for seven days, and I'm gonna go

37:25

back to my maintenance calories. So that's

37:27

an important delineation. You're not eating at

37:30

a buffet, you're not just, it's not

37:32

a cheat day where you're eating anything

37:34

you want, you're increasing your calories, which

37:37

seems like a lot of extra calories

37:39

since you've been dieting, but you're not

37:41

overeating. What they found was that the

37:43

diet break group had significant lower drive

37:46

to eat and significantly lower hunger levels.

37:49

What my lab found, we

37:51

use some different psychological questionnaires,

37:53

something called a three-factor eating

37:55

inventory. What we found was

37:57

that disinhibition scores were significantly

37:59

improved. And This inhibition means

38:01

that you tend to lose

38:03

control of what you will

38:05

eat when you're in a social context

38:08

or you have more anxiety or stress.

38:10

So the subjects in our diet break

38:12

group had much better

38:14

control over their subjective feelings

38:16

of their hunger and their

38:18

ability to not overeat during

38:21

this study or at the end of

38:23

the study. So where this becomes impactful

38:25

is it seems that

38:27

diet breaks help you have

38:29

better control over hunger. And

38:31

over time, that is

38:33

what will dictate diet success or fat loss

38:35

success. So if my study would have been

38:38

extended, let's say for three months or the

38:40

other study would have been longer, I think

38:42

we would have started to seeing physiological differences

38:45

that were not yet manifested because they were

38:47

too short. I will also say just in

38:49

my own life, I will never, and I

38:51

live my whole life dieting. I gain weight,

38:54

I lose weight. Sometimes it's on purpose, sometimes

38:56

it's not. And I'm a fat loss researcher,

38:58

like I love this stuff. But

39:00

I will never put myself on a

39:02

diet again that does not have a

39:05

diet break. Typically what I'll do is

39:07

I'll diet Monday through Friday and I'll

39:09

increase my calories on the weekends because

39:11

I tend to eat more on the

39:13

weekends. So I'll design my diet strategy

39:15

around my lifestyle. Do you think of

39:17

diet breaks? Because sometimes I'll

39:19

hear people use the term refeeds. Like

39:21

they'll go through a period of caloric

39:24

restriction and then they'll do

39:26

refeeds for a few, whether it's a few weeks. I

39:28

know I think for you, it was defined as one

39:30

to two weeks and that allows you to be more

39:32

anabolic, which means you're building muscle. But

39:35

I think for anyone that's listening, especially

39:37

those that have been chlorically restricted, they've

39:39

been doing time restricted eating, maybe they've

39:42

been doing fasting for five, 10 years,

39:44

I think there is benefit from liberalizing

39:47

things. And it could be that maybe it's 100, 150

39:49

extra calories of

39:51

protein. I'm not talking that you're going out

39:53

every day and having like a brownie Sunday,

39:55

although I'm sure you could adjust your macros

39:57

to do that accordingly, but helping people. understand

40:00

when we're talking about these diet breaks, it's

40:02

not a cheat day. It's not a cheat week or

40:04

two. It is liberalizing things

40:06

enough where you're still benefiting your health,

40:09

but allowing you to have a degree

40:11

of comfort where you mentioned the disinhibition.

40:13

I think that's really interesting that people

40:16

who have a propensity for wanting to

40:18

continue to eat are then satiated. And

40:20

that's what we're really speaking to is

40:22

that degree of satiation and sustainability

40:25

because the reason why diets oftentimes

40:27

fail is they're not sustainable long

40:30

term. Yes, the best diet is

40:32

the one that you can adhere to. And that's

40:34

why we talked earlier, ketogenic

40:36

diets, I'm not a big fan

40:39

because most people cannot adhere to

40:41

them. But a certain segment of the

40:43

population does very well on them. And I think that's

40:45

a great choice for them until they

40:47

get to where their goals are. And then again, if

40:49

we start to see some deficiencies, nutrient

40:52

deficiencies, hey, we need, you know,

40:54

we want to address that. Adherent

40:56

sustainability is everything. Absolutely.

40:58

And where does lifestyle fit in? If

41:00

we're talking about things like sleep and

41:02

stress, I mean, these are topics we

41:04

talk about a lot. Where do those

41:06

things as well as do you have

41:08

favorite supplements or their ergogenic aids that

41:10

you feel like are beneficial, that, you

41:12

know, looking at the research that have

41:14

shown some consistent patterns that are of

41:16

benefit to women in particular. So lifestyle

41:20

to me, the lowest hanging fruit

41:22

is sleep. So again, I study

41:25

muscle and fat essentially. And

41:28

multiple studies have shown sleep

41:31

deprivation, whether it's a

41:33

little bit each time for several weeks, a

41:36

complete night of zero sleep, or

41:39

four hours for two weeks, only

41:41

getting four hours of sleep for

41:43

two weeks, I'm just referring to

41:45

different studies, it always has adverse

41:47

consequences on our body composition. And

41:50

in particular, we lose muscle mass when

41:52

we're sleep deprived, and we gain body

41:54

fat. Now, some of that is because

41:56

we're just eating more food because disrupted

41:58

sleep will elevate. hunger. But

42:01

one of the studies that I'm referring

42:03

to, it actually caused a distribution of

42:05

higher fat in the visceral region.

42:08

So think of that as the

42:10

where you do not want to store fat

42:12

because now you're having more metabolic resistance, just

42:15

it's the most unhealthy place to store fat

42:17

is in your now you need some but

42:19

we're talking about excess visceral fat, a lack

42:21

of sleep actually caused

42:24

a shift in where

42:26

our body stored fat which was very interesting

42:28

and this was a the most controlled

42:30

study I've ever read on sleep and that you

42:33

used MRI to measure this. So

42:35

it was a very high quality study. It's interesting.

42:37

We had Sean O'Mara on a few months

42:39

ago and he's the visceral fat guy. He loves

42:41

to talk about it and wants everyone to

42:43

get an MRI and and talks about the dangers

42:45

of this deep visceral fat that it's not benign.

42:48

I used to have patients that would tell

42:50

me that as they got older, their inseam kept

42:52

getting smaller and smaller and it was because

42:54

their bellies were getting bigger and they were

42:56

trying to fit their pants around

42:58

their belly at the expense of their

43:00

inseam. So it was like this, you

43:02

know, it's like Santa Claus. You think

43:04

about Santa Claus's body habitus that that

43:06

was what was happening and I would

43:08

remind them that, you know, that's the

43:10

deep inflammatory cytokine rich, problematic

43:13

kind of fat as opposed to the fat that

43:15

we as women generally complain about that we might

43:17

have on our hips or our thighs, which that's

43:19

more subcutaneous and although pesky is is

43:22

not as inflammatory. Are

43:24

there particular, you know, stimulants supplements that

43:26

you like to use or you've used

43:28

in your research supplements are kind of

43:30

a hot topic on the podcast largely

43:32

because I just always find it interesting

43:34

to ask guests like what are the

43:36

things that are part of your supplement

43:38

stack or that you or your wife

43:40

really find beneficial or you've used in

43:42

your study work that you have found has

43:44

been beneficial for body fat. My

43:47

career started as doing a lot of sports

43:50

nutrition research or dietary supplement research, but I

43:52

don't take that many dietary supplements. I'll just

43:54

say the ones that I take. I

43:57

take creatine, creatine, protein,

44:01

fish oil, and a multivitamin,

44:03

multi-mineral supplement. That's pretty much

44:05

all I take. If

44:08

I were, let's say I wanted to lose

44:11

fat quickly, I would leverage caffeine. Caffeine is

44:13

a really, I wanna say it's powerful, but

44:15

it's a modest fat loss supplement. It's not

44:17

gonna melt fat away, but it does everything

44:20

you want it to do. But we have

44:22

to be careful. We don't wanna take it

44:24

too late because then we're gonna not sleep

44:26

and then that's gonna work against our efforts.

44:28

So yeah, and I'm trying to think right

44:31

now, my wife is my incomplete focus and

44:33

hers by default is on HRT. So we're

44:35

going with the big movers

44:38

in her physiology, but she takes a lot of

44:40

the same multivitamin that I do. She does take

44:42

fish oil, vitamin D by the way. A lot

44:44

of people are deficient in vitamin D and don't

44:46

know it. So in our multivitamin, it has vitamin

44:50

D. So if you're, I would also take

44:52

vitamin D for minority in my multivitamin. No,

44:54

I love that. I love the simplicity. And

44:56

we are very much pro HRT if that

44:58

is for you. And I think for a

45:01

lot of people, it's easy to get oral

45:03

progesterone. It might be more

45:05

challenging to get transdermal estrogen as a

45:07

starting point. Testosterone, I keep hoping that

45:09

we're gonna have FDA approved testosterone for

45:11

women and we aren't there yet. So

45:13

most women are either using teeny

45:16

tiny portions of androgyl, which is

45:18

for men, or they're having it

45:20

compounded. But I think testosterone for

45:23

most women in terms of body

45:25

mechanics and body composition seems to

45:27

be hugely impactful. Well, I've

45:29

so enjoyed this conversation. I hope I can

45:32

convince you to come back when we both

45:34

have a little bit more time together. Please

45:36

let listeners know how to connect with you

45:38

outside of this podcast, how to learn more

45:40

about your research and your work. Yes, again,

45:42

thank you for inviting me. I know I

45:44

should come back when we get our survey

45:47

study, our menopause survey. Please do. That would

45:49

be a great conversation to

45:51

have. I'm easy to find them.

45:53

I'm only really on Instagram. So

45:55

my Instagram handles Bill Campbell PhD

45:58

and I try to respond.

46:00

to every question, every DM,

46:02

every comment, try to. I think

46:04

I do a pretty good job. So, and I'll just say

46:06

I am literally obsessed with

46:10

menopause, fitness,

46:12

HRT, exercise, diets in

46:14

this phase of life. So if anybody has

46:16

questions, and again, a lot of this point,

46:18

I don't have a, some of this like

46:20

earlier, I don't know the answers to everything,

46:22

but there is nobody more passionate about this

46:24

space than me right now. Maybe you. No,

46:28

well, thank you. This has been an interview that we've been

46:30

trying to make happen for a while. And I'm so glad

46:33

to know that we were able to make it happen. And

46:35

obviously have to have you back when your research

46:38

has been completed on that survey. Because I think

46:40

in many ways, you know, I've had Dr. Lisa

46:42

Moscone on the podcast, and she said, in 2016,

46:44

she was appalled at the lack of research

46:48

being done on women in

46:50

perimenopause and menopause. So thank you for the

46:52

work that you do. It's,

46:54

you know, it really does take an army

46:57

to get things done. And I think the

46:59

more that we can understand based on research,

47:01

the more that we can advocate and inspire

47:04

others to be able to take the best care

47:06

of themselves that possible. Yes, yeah. Thank you again

47:08

for asking me the questions that I love to

47:10

talk about. Awesome.

Unlock more with Podchaser Pro

  • Audience Insights
  • Contact Information
  • Demographics
  • Charts
  • Sponsor History
  • and More!
Pro Features