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Craig Rosenberg: [00:00:00] You know what's amazing, Ted? I think about, uh, Bone, is that like we all have this incredible memory of college, but then there's this, this Epicness to what your son's going through this Ted Purcell: year. Oh, it's fucking crazy, dude. Craig Rosenberg: I mean, his son's a backup quarterback for Washington. So like, I Judd Borakove: mean, do you see So he's never gonna play? Not this year. Craig Rosenberg: Well, you never know. So the, um, Ted Purcell: You're right, if he's playing, it's garbage time. You never know, he might get in against Stanford. But you're right, with Penix is the man. And he's taking care of business on his Heisman run. So you're absolutely Judd Borakove: right. As long as [00:01:00] he doesn't get hurt, but hopefully what he'll do is he'll get like, it'll be kind of like a little Jimmy Garoppolo story, like back up an amazing person and suddenly you've picked up so much that you're, you're the next one. Ted Purcell: It's gotta happen. I don't want it to happen. He's third stream, so Judd Borakove: he's a little deeper. Got it. Still had to be pretty good. That's a D1 top college, Ted Purcell: so. He made the travel team, and he's in. Did you watch the game, Craig Rosenberg: Rosenberg? I did. I watched it. We watched it, baby. I had to watch it later because everyone told me it was the greatest game of the year and then I went and watched it. I can't believe, because by the way, Bo Nix played great too. I mean like, if that was, I mean, truly I never do this, but Dan Lanning may have really, like, when I always find it overrated when people blame the coach for the loss. That's, ugh, like, in two plays. Like, dude, after that fourth down call, I mean, like.[00:02:00] Oh, you Ted Purcell: know, Teddy, so you see Teddy on TV Craig Rosenberg: when you look at it. Oh, dude, the guy's just awesome. He's that's what I mean. He's having a Ted Purcell: blast, dude. Having a blast and judge, just so you know, he he's calling the play. So he's like, you know, he feels values in the mix, but dude, that, um, that sequence where they were, um, where you dub went for four times in a row from within the, with inside the one. Was fucking crazy. And so when you Matty A, what's up dude? How you doing brother man? So much better now. Judd Borakove: Oh man, do you look He had a haircut too. Oh, what Ted Purcell: the fuck? I didn't know it was haircut season. Feels so good right now, it's crazy. Are you Judd Borakove: in sales? Ted Purcell: I want to buy, I want to buy. Matt Amundson: It's good to see you. Are we talking what? UW football? Yes, we are. Ted Purcell: So good [00:03:00] timing. So that, so literally Rose and Howie, that the whole, um, the whole, you know, the tail of the tape. is lack of conversion on fourth down because Oregon it happened in three times and and you dub it happened to them inside the one four straight shots and Teddy stories are always pretty classic, you know, but this game because it's him, the OC and came with the board, the head coach, nobody else on the headset. And so, you know, It's like the, the conversations he's hearing are pretty classic and, and he's like, usually Michael Pennix, who's a great guy, he's a total stud, he, when he comes out of a play and gets on the phone to talk to them, the whole crew, he is very much a yes, yes, sir, highly respectful. On that, Teddy goes, I've never heard him. He was [00:04:00] screaming F bombs. He was so pissed. Fuck this. Fuck that. Put it in my fucking hands. What are you guys doing? And dude, UW, uh, Oregon was winning the trenches. They won as Matty, as Matt can, can celebrate. The fucking O line and D line for, for Oregon was Craig Rosenberg: money. Judd Borakove: Yeah, They had that game, I mean. They Ted Purcell: had that game. And so I don't think it, I don't know about the coaching thing, it's like, when you can run the ball and gain six yards every single time, like they were, I mean, it's a miracle that they went three times fourth and three and didn't convert. A miracle. Matt Amundson: Awesome. Well, I will say, uh, just because I do like to toot my own horn, Ted Purcell: uh, Oh, There Judd Borakove: he is. Matt Amundson: Very infrequently right about anything, but, uh, I told Craig, UW was winning the game, and if they won, that Pennix would be the favorite for the Heisman. And that seems to have come true. [00:05:00] Ted Purcell: Wow. You Craig Rosenberg: said, you said, no, hold on, it was an even better prediction. You said the reason they're gonna win is because Penix's Heisman's on the line, National Championship's on the line, like, there was so, there was a personal, there was so much on the line, and it worked, because Penix jumped, he's like the, the, he's the favorite going away now to win the Judd Borakove: Heisman. He only is because USC crapped the bed, come on. But Matt Amundson: they, but here's the thing, Judd, silently SC's been crapping the bed for weeks. Judd Borakove: Oh no, no, I know, and I agree, and I honestly don't think he should have been the front runner for the Heisman, but that doesn't mean. That what we think is always going to come to fruition. And I think that, that was the battle for the Heisman that, that the, the Oregon. Yeah. Matt Amundson: Caleb goes off against Notre Dame. It's very hard to win a Heisman back to back, almost impossible, Ted Purcell: right? If he, Judd Borakove: if he had crushed them. He might have, because people actually had them losing [00:06:00] to Notre Dame anyway. Even if they were ranked higher. Oh, Ted Purcell: yeah, yeah. They're, they're, they're better. Essie is not, Caleb's unreal, but he lost the Heisman on this, against Notre Dame. And he was making terrible calls. That was like, you know what I mean? Judd Borakove: Reinterceptions, never happened before. Bad Ted Purcell: calls. And goblins, too. It wasn't like, um, Pinnocks had a pick on, on Saturday with the Oregon game. And it was because Rome, who never falls out of his route, fell out of his route. And so it was like, it wasn't like a bad decision. But man, you guys, that game was electric in person. It was just, it was so awesome. It was great. So he's loving it. He's stoked. Craig Rosenberg: Shall we dispense with the pleasantries at this time, Ted? What Judd Borakove: pleasantries? Nobody cares. And I'm Judd, so there you go. I was gonna say, we literally built this off of the idea that we love, like, the sports [00:07:00] talk shows, right? Like, they're fun, you're gonna have an interesting conversation, and people are gonna get heated whether you like it or not. So I love that we started that way, so. Thank you. Well, Ted Purcell: let me ask you this. Do you love your background? Because the whole gray palette of like your salt and pepper beard, that your, your, your hoodie and the backdrop, it's exceptional. You should talk to the other two guys about fine tuning. This Judd Borakove: guy's in sales. He's good. We gotta have him back. Matt Amundson: Ted, I'm trying to tone match with the screen to... I Judd Borakove: was impressed. I was impressed. Although, Ted, I will say I love that picture. That painting looks... It's poppy because of the room. It's great. Thank you. Ted Purcell: I appreciate it. It was funny because this is something that I, it's my favorite place in the world. It's on the north shore of Kauai, looking down onto Hanalei Bay. And I found this painter, that this artist who [00:08:00] is like, specializes in that style, but Hawaii. And, um, I got introduced to him by a common buddy, surfing friend. And so I called him, I'm like, dude, have you ever seen the view from this location? And he's like, no. He's like, but I'm going to Kauai in like three months. So I sent him there and he called me from that spot and he goes, it's ridiculous. And I'm like, dude, paint, I'll buy, I'll, I'll come, I'll paint it. I'm, I'm buying that painting. And what's funny is my wife, literally, I mean, she's COO of the household, as long as we're not making that public, you know what I mean? Catch my drift, but she thinks she's CEO. And, and, but she is, I'm just kidding. But literally, she goes, that painting is not going on our wall. And I'm like, what? You gotta be kidding me. I had it in, like, our master bedroom, and then I had it in the hallway. And it just kept getting delegated. So when COVID hit, and I was like, Zoom Central, I'm like... Well, I can look at that, you know, now I'm stoked. So it's all good. Yeah. Look Craig Rosenberg: at all the time.[00:09:00] Oh, . I don't, I don't need any of that, so I'm good, man. Um, so, uh, no, I mean, I need , but I don't need compliments. You don't need anything. Craig's good. I don't need compli. I don't need compliments from you. So the, uh, um, so I just wanted to bring up, uh, uh, why we have Ted Purcell on the call. Oh, wow. . And then, wow. And then I'm gonna lead with a big question for you. So, um, look, I've known Ted forever and, um, I just. You know, he's got a longer background, but I just, there's some important points here. So one is, uh, he was at SAP selling big, hellacious deals for 10 years and helping others on his team sell big, hellacious deal. Then leading teams selling big, hellacious deals. And he has incredible stories from that time. But here's the thing is he went from. The [00:10:00] big enterprise classic cell, uh, into SAS, right? So he, he, his next move, he brought in what, you know, volume and velocity, um, which, um, you know, he did, I would say incredibly like the transition was incredibly successful. It's actually very hard to go from doing. One deal a year for 40 million to having to get to 40 million by doing 10, 000 deals. Right. And so like that, that, uh, is one of the big things I've always been impressed with. Right. And then, you know, he, he went to Marketo, had commercial sales and was like, I mean, I'm not sure everyone knows, but like Ted was given no extra budget. To raise revenue, and he did, and the moves that he made were incredible there. Like, I've just, it's been an awe watching the guy. Now he's the CRO at [00:11:00] Telia. I mean, he's been there for like, what? Four or five years now. I mean, it's crazy. Fully vested. We love it. Always like to hear fully vested. That's good. He's been able to see all points of sales in the, you know, in Ted Purcell: technology. He's put his SDRs together. That's the best part to me. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, well, Ted, man, I, I mean, that guy is, he's been epic ever, the moment, he, like, walked in, I was like, that dude's epic. So, uh, Can I, can I ask Judd Borakove: a quick question? I know you've got one keyed, but, like, that really leads me to something that I have a question for, especially from a seller like that and a leader. Is that okay, Craig? Craig Rosenberg: That's fine. If you want a break from the script that we decided on weeks ago, go Judd Borakove: ahead. I, you know me, I hate scripts. I'm horrible at them. I'll let, I'll let you go back. Can you complain that we don't nail everything? I'm the worst. I'm the worst. I promise. Matt Amundson: It's in the podcast description that we don't have [00:12:00] scripts, so Judd Borakove: please. Yeah, there you go. So unscripted, Craig Rosenberg: unfiltered, baby. That's true. Go ahead. Go ahead. So it better be big, but go Judd Borakove: ahead. I'm hoping. So I've had these conversations recently with a bunch of CROs and sales leaders, and I always like to get the take of somebody who's been at different types of sales, different types of companies. A lot of people always look for... They've been there, they've done that as a telltale that they will be successful again, the playbook, right? Do you believe that the playbook is the thing? Or do you believe it's your ability to figure stuff out and be a great leader? Simple. I don't consent Ted Purcell: to the latter. You know, I feel like the world has completely changed in the last... It keeps changing. And I would say that Craig... He, when he and Scott Albro worked together and I was transitioning to that modern revenue machine is, as I like to call it, I [00:13:00] love that term, um, you may have invented it. I don't know if we did together. You did, Craig, but I love that term. And it's just more of what he was talking about earlier around having an all bound based approach to what he Working. Of course, the all bound approach works better in product-led growers and the SaaS industry over the last 10 to 15 years, with exception of the last three. It's been so focused to maybe two years, and it's been so focused on product-led growers in conjunction with that all bound based approach. So you can templatize these playbooks and just get these playbooks down so easy. What's easy to do when it's 0% interest rates? You can invest in people process. Everything, without any questions, and everyone feels like they can't buy software fast enough because they can't keep up with their competition in the market. Which opens everyone's TAM up massively. And I'll tell you what, this has been the biggest challenge of my entire sales career, the last three years, four years. I, you know, like you said, I've been a team for four years and [00:14:00] we are the enterprise leaders in our category, the customer data platform category. And we have an amazing product and amazing team, but it's been. Insanely hard for all of us to go through what you're talking about. Is it you create a playbook because then it needs to change like every quarter or every six months and product market fit is constantly this vision you're chasing, but it's changing because of the competitive context and the partner involvement in the category, let alone are people hiring roles and responsibilities in the category to support the, the, the category that you are in. Um, to the point where you can augment your customer journey and your CS team, or you're relying on your CS team for staff log purposes, just to convince people to stay. All that stuff comes in. And so, Judd, to your point, it's leadership and change management. It's, yeah, he, Judd Borakove: he, he just dropped the Craig Rosenberg: mic. That was a [00:15:00] good question, actually. So thank you. Thank you, Craig. So if So all things, like, uh, do you, one thing I've been worried about, like kind of, so there's like two worrisome elements of playbook hiring. Like one is, you always go for the person who's been there, done that, and it's successful. For sure. And it's like, but, but dude, this is like, nobody's blowing through the roof, right? And so like, is that really? The key element you're looking for. And then number two is like, in your case, I mean, do you like, is it better, worse, the same, or it just depends on the person, whether they have a background in CDP or a background, you know, selling to your persona or like, so on both of those things, like the, those are sort of classic playbook elements. Right. Hey, I need to hire people from Salesforce. Right. Or, you know, and it's like, [00:16:00] uh, and actually when, you know, going back to Ted's thing, zero interest rates and everything's going to scale and most of what you do works, you might as well, you know, like that, that seems good. Uh, but like now, uh, is, as you said, it's changed. So it feels like those two things are sort of broken. I don't know, like, I would love if you talk more about like, how, you know, is that leadership and decision making ability clearly sounds like that's the most important thing. How do you, what do you look for to find that? How do you test for it, et cetera? Cause that is what everyone needs to figure out right now. Ted Purcell: If somebody, if you talk to somebody that does have it figured out, then please let me know, I'd love to talk to them, man, it's the grit that's required to grind through these things. I mean, the whole, I just kinda, I have maximum respect for people that have. Spent time at whatever company it is, in whatever [00:17:00] part of the journey that it is, and it succeeded. Don't get me wrong, it's amazing. Um, Salesforce back in the day. I mean, again, I don't want to oversimplify this for people that may listen to this or like, dude, you got to be kidding me, but it's, you know, going to sell Salesforce in the last 10 years has been, it's been a good decision that last 15 years. Yeah. Um, And, um, you know, speaking from a guy that was at SAP for 10 years, like you mentioned, where, you know, you have the ability to leverage this bill of materials, the complexity and the value of a 300 page price list to move things around, you've got massive spins to be able to negotiate. I mean, this is the, the, the industry high tech playbook. I don't care if it's Xerox and IBM. Microsoft, Oracle, SAP, Adobe, Salesforce, go down the list. The big tech [00:18:00] titans play this card. So for me, you know, when you look at people that have had backgrounds at big companies with success, I always look at that to say, well, you may have been in the right place at the right time. You may have had the right account list. Let's, I mean, let's call it like it is in these big companies. You need to, you want to have the right account list. Like I always. Look at the people that didn't have the right account list that weren't selling in the core ICP of the company, but still made it happen. Those were always the types of people that I just looked at and just had maximum respect and admiration for when I was growing up in the business. And even now when I'm trying to hire and look for people in our business, you know, this whole. You know, the product led grower stuff, this is not, obviously, it's the opposite of sales led growth. And as we enter back into the world, it's quite frankly, probably ideally a combination of both. Um, and don't get me wrong, the product led [00:19:00] growers have been amazing. And the fact that that came around and obviously outside, you know, capital investors want to You know, the, the leanness of a product led grower is amazing, but you guys know the challenges on that. Easy come, easy go in a lot of ways, and it's still, that's not the template no brainer at this point. Um, so, uh, uh, highly consultative, trusted advisor resources is the secret to sales. Yeah. And people want to buy and do business with people that they trust and that say what they mean and they mean what they say. And don't get me wrong, everyone's aggressive and everyone respects the appreciation you're trying to make deadlines, whether it's project delivery deadlines, if you're consuming, implementing, managing and maintaining tech, or whether you're chasing a quota. Deadlines are deadlines and people need to be respectful about how they approach it, but that aggressiveness behind it, the tenacity, the grit to grind through what that is, like that, [00:20:00] that's, you know, that's very, very difficult to interview for. It's the reason why I always tell my kids, like, your brand is always on display. Even though you're in high school and college, your brand and your network is always on display. And if you're showing yourself, your personal brand, I'm using this, I'm overusing this term, I think. Maximum respect. That's my favorite. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Ha, then you are going to find yourself in a better position. I don't care what endeavor it is that you chase. If you're a doctor or an attorney, if you're in tech, in whatever position you may be in, or if you're in the podcast business, relationships are important. Trust and authenticity, I think, are important. And those are the things I try to smoke out. And I will say, The hardest thing in human nature is to change. Change is like breaking bones. Getting people to change and do things differently, it's hard. [00:21:00] And it's hard for me, it's hard for everybody. And I like it when change happens in... You see success from that change or happiness from that change. I'm stoked on it, but the willingness to do that, everyone says they'll change, but I'll tell you what, very, it's, it's, it's more of a rarity than it is a standard. And somehow I'm looking for trusted advisor, passionate, intellectually curious, willing to change people that don't lack grit. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. All right. I got two things. One is, damn it. Cause Jed, that turned out to be a great question. Matt Amundson: But also, I think we got the title for today's podcast, which is Ted Purcell breaks down how to cultivate your brand on LinkedIn. That's what I got. That's what everybody got. Judd Borakove: That's all you heard. That's all you did. This is a mark. We got to get rid of it now. I'm just kidding. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. I just did a webinar with Doug Landis, right? [00:22:00] And we were talking about grit, that if we had to choose right now, grit is the single most important thing to look for in a sales rep. And I'm like, well, how do you look for grit? And he sent me this, have you seen this Angela Duckworth grit scale? No, I'd love to see it. Yeah, I'll, I'll, we'll, We'll put it in the podcast notes. I'm just kidding. You guys can get it. And you know how many people say that? And I've like, I've never seen podcasts. Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll send it over to you guys, but basically it's this grit scale and it's like a series of questions to get your score on how basically your level of grit. It's awesome. And, uh, but, but. I like that you used the word grid. It was a trigger for me because we were just talking about like how important grid is and that's actually so you know what the question I was going to ask you is like, what's something that, uh, that would like is surprising to the market today that they think they know. but they're wrong about and what you need to go do about. And I think one of the things that [00:23:00] they don't know about is we just had this conversation. You might say something different, but that like that you have to hire someone. The most important factors are, were they in market? Were they successful before? Were they at a company that was successful before? Versus trusted advisor relationship. That level of the ability to go do that in grid, right? And like, those are things that I'm not sure, like, Judd wouldn't have asked the question. If he didn't think, cause it was a, you know, it was a lead. Like he's like, man, I, I mean, I'm hearing this out there. So, uh, yeah, I mean, it feels like that's kind of, you know, your thing on what the, what's different than how people look at how to be successful and go to market and you would say, well, you know, I'm going to tell you that you're wrong and here's what you got to do about it. Ted Purcell: Well, well said, I don't know if there's a question there, but I think I know what I'm going to say next. The, uh, is that. [00:24:00] The biggest challenge I see right now is you people, especially when you're in a downturn or you're in a challenging economic environment, it's hard for people to show curiosity while at the same time trying to convince whomever they're talking to they know how to do their job. And being curious and being open. It's a, it's a very fine line between, wait, do you even know what to do? But when people come in with that background and that experience that you're referencing Rosenberg, I, you know, it's almost like, okay, well, too much of that means you're not as open and curious. actually happening. And what I will say is selling software, supporting software or the go to market game in high tech, which is really what we're all in the world of. I don't think people know how to buy software and they think they do. They think they know their own [00:25:00] process. They think that they know their own company. And as, as go to marketers or revenue, um, or revenue generators, You want to put in mutual agreement close plans. You want to be, you want to speak in terms of business outcomes and value that can be expected to be generated and realized and beginning the cadence together so it's consistent and so that we're engaged together in that consultative trusted advisor context that we were talking about. But you, I can't tell you how many How, how often, or I think almost every time that you're, that a customer say, even if they're a senior executive, that they say they know how to buy software. They know what their internal process is. They know who's on vacation or not. They know who has to sign or what gates are in place. Especially in large enterprise product led growers, totally different [00:26:00] because you buy with a credit card, but then, or whatever, but then eventually when you're trying to grow larger deals, this comes into play. So it comes into play for everybody, but when trying to inspect that, when the, the customer oftentimes is like. You know, I know my business. I know my company, but in this environment, a CFO and the CEO and their board and whatever executive operating committee is running that company, they are making changes to how they're going to operate the business every day. So technically by that definition, the waterfall back from that means what they approve and allow to be invested in the business is also changing every day. So therefore anything that you thought you knew about your internal process last week, last month, let alone last year, it's changing daily. Finding that level of curiosity to in process and building constantly [00:27:00] changing and evolving mutual agreement plans to say, this is what we need to do. And, you know, ideally I like to back into the go live. So it's not about the event of the deal. It's there. People are investing in tech to have an outcome and to generate value from an investment. And as executive teams are trying to evaluate, do I invest in. In real estate, do I invest in people? What is it that I invest in with my bucket of cash? Now that cash is so precious and that process and that curiosity that comes from, um, from, from that and how you, how you recruit and how do you, you know, enable and hold accountable that mindset, man, it's, it's a major challenge. It's changing each and every day, and that's a little bit more detail behind the grind that's needed because I think it plagues everybody. Judd Borakove: Matt, I actually want to get your take on something. So, so [00:28:00] hold on one sec, cause this is important. So I heard Ted, you said something that, that I've been kind of preaching for a while now about personal brand and like we're in an era of trust. I, and I believe that kind of, we're going back in time, 80, 90s sellers were trust relations. You know, big deals didn't happen overnight, they built trust and rapport over long term. And right now, I think we're entering back into a time where trust is even more important than data. Uh, so, so I kind of would love to hear between you and Matt, because I feel that between sales and marketing, there's different approaches to this from personal brand development. to, uh, the way that we do our marketing and positioning and POV work. So between you two, like, what's the right approach right now with the way the market is currently going, knowing it's going to change, but what we can control are things that we should be trying to control. What, what are these things, guys, sales and marketing, and how are you guys working together to make it happen? Matt Amundson: Yeah, I mean, I think for a long time we fell back on [00:29:00] the like, Hey, we've got a customer success story. We've got G2 crowd reviews. And I'm not saying those things aren't valuable, but they don't serve the same level of value that they used to maybe seven or eight or 10 years ago, or maybe even as recent as three years ago, or during the pandemic when people could just be like, cool, they've got three or four customers that look just like me, check box. I'm good to go. So I think, I think Uh, marketing is struggling to demonstrate an ability to be trusted because people's trust in case studies, people's trust in G2 crowd reviews or other, other third party reviews has eroded. Um, I think the I still believe in the trust that you can drive from a good analyst report. Um, but not everybody operates in a category that has waves or quadrants, so that can be challenging. I think, uh, I think this is the hardest time ever to be a seller. [00:30:00] And I like, there've been times where as a marketer, I can be adversarial with sales here. I am as empathetic as I've ever been in my career because it is so hard to sell right now. You will get people showing up on your doorstep with a demo request that is like, I want exactly what you sell. And they still won't buy from you, even if you prove all the value, because. Things change. People, you know, we, we don't see the big gigantic layoffs the way we were seeing, but people are still getting like sort of quietly let go and these smaller rifts and things like that. Like one day that person's there next day, that person's not there anymore. And, and so like, it's just such a challenging landscape. I do believe, uh, Uh, wholeheartedly in what Ted said, which is people don't know how to buy software anymore. I think this is especially true if you're at a younger company or in an emerging category where people have never bought that software before. And so creating, uh, [00:31:00] creating a plan for your buyer around this is the way most people evaluate software. It sounds silly, but it really matters. I think most people believe that their problems are unique, uh, and I think sellers want to create a bespoke, uh, selling experience for their customers. But actually most people want to feel like their problems are common, that there is a right and wrong way to do something. And all I want to do is like, I'm, I maybe care less about doing what's right. Just please don't let me do what's wrong. Right. Like. I don't want to buy the wrong thing that's going to get me fired right now. I don't want to go through a sales cycle with you, uh, for six months, only to find out that my CFO will not, uh, support this acquisition or this transaction. So I think you have to be really cautious and I am advocating. Largely now for a sales process, not necessarily a marketing process, but a sales process that is highly consultative that one where, you know, the [00:32:00] sales reps are taking much more extreme care than what they had to do maybe in the, during the pandemic times where someone was showing up with a, you know, a request for a demo or yeah, I'll take your phone call. And yeah, I want to buy that thing. Cool. Like here's your contract and off we go. People just aren't buying like that anymore. Anytime there's a sales rep involved at any company, it's just not happening. Sale cycles are getting longer. There's more and more people involved in the buying committee than ever before. Uh, and threading that needle for, for sales reps is just, it's, it's really, really hard, but I think, and I don't want to just repeat what Ted said, but. He did a really great job of outlining what are the steps, be curious, care about what people want, uh, care about the direction that their company's going in. I think in a lot of cases, we, what I hear from sales reps is they take information at face value. I want to do this. I want to have a thing that does this. And we sort of accept that as opposed to saying, can you tell me a little bit more about [00:33:00] that? Why, why is that so important to you? And, or maybe why is that different now than it was six months ago? We just kind of let things. sit out there a little bit. And, and it is also from a human perspective, I can see their trepidation to press too much. Cause they're like, Oh, I don't want to be playing 20 questions with this person. They're going to go buy from my competitor because I'm grilling them. So it is such a tight rope right now to walk where you can present yourself as a trusted advisor, not just a seller, but also a seller. Who's not going to let a big fish off a hook. So no answers. Other than there's some tactics that we need to be utilizing, uh, uh, as a salesperson or as a sales team in order to get there. I, I, I apologize for not having a good marketing answer. Ted Purcell: Well, you know, it may, that, I think it's well said, man. I, I, you know, when digital. Marketing came about, the whole idea was how can we create our brand, let [00:34:00] alone whatever that is, let's use the, the thesis of trust and authenticity, like we're talking about right now. It was, how do you do that at scale? In a non personal way, because previous to websites, or web provided content, or G2 crowds, or whatever it is where people go to do 80 percent of their due diligence about a purchase before they even speak to a seller, they used to get that from a seller. They used to be educated. What products are coming out? What are you offering? So your education was through The lens of a seller. So by nature, you had to be, you had to have a, a way in which you engaged people in, in, I, the most successful people at least were the ones that did it in a trusted, authentic, Fun, whatever you want to say, all that likable way. And I think [00:35:00] that, that marketing point back to your question, Judd, um, you know, creating that trust and authenticity at scale is still, it's so important and it just addresses a different part of the engagement life cycle. Because you're not going to be able to get deep, because if you get deep, you confuse people, you get into the weeds, you need to be at that right level, but you need to have the right orchestrated process and team that takes it, knows that that context has been set, so then it allows you to get into more detail, but it's, it's, you know, how do you get it. you know, an inch deep and a mile wide early on enough to gain the credibility to get to the table. But then as soon as a person interacts and you start asking qualification questions, Man, I mean, I think Rosenberg, you used the term collaborative value discovery a few years ago. Thank Matt Amundson: you. Wow. [00:36:00] What about an Craig Rosenberg: airspace sales process, Ted? By the way, as you talk, don't get distracted. I'm so excited. I got to go stand up desk. So you may hear some noises. Thank you. Go ahead. Judd Borakove: You got him to stand up, Ted. That's huge. Thank you. Ted Purcell: How about the close based mentality? I love the collaborative value discovery because it was really meant to do what we're talking about right now. But, you know, how do you get trusted enough that you're going to educate people when oftentimes... Man, especially in my category, there's a lot of people that use the term that we use, maybe, you know, a hundred plus, plus every one of the big companies. How do you create authenticity, trust, and differentiation, and at the same time, not just what you're selling, but going back to what we were saying a little bit earlier, defining the engagement life cycle so [00:37:00] you know what's going to happen and when, so that You can plan properly, let alone forecast back to your team so that they can set the expectations on the whole litany of demand and supply that you need, whether it's people or cloud infrastructure or whatever it is, it is so challenging. It's insane. And I would just say that the multitaskers that are thinking through that lens of. Grit based authenticity and trust and being as curious and, and changeable and convincible things in your own mind aren't what you're hearing that they think that they are. I mean, it's just, it's crazy. It's just, it's a real challenge. And so I, I just feel like that sales and marketing alignment, taking that high level one to many Personalization, defining what it is that you're on and that brand trust promise, a brand promise, which may be trust, like we were [00:38:00] talking about, and then preparing that next level below that in the consultative context that Matty was talking about is, is a way to go about it. And I feel like that's the most successful way to do it. Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Wait, did you just invent grit based authenticity? We're, Judd Borakove: we're, we're inventing stuff on the fly. Uh, Craig Rosenberg: Ted will invent a saying or a phrase on every conversation you have with them. And if he likes it, you'll hear it again. I see that. Oh, for Judd Borakove: sure. And so he doubled down on it. I, okay. I got, I got one that I think I've got the right three people on here to ask, because between the three of you. There's gonna be maybe the exact same opinion or a lot of varying opinions. I'm a big believer that currently, as it stands, the SDR BDR motion is dead. It is not working, it has not worked for a while, I don't think it's going to work in the way it works currently. Maybe save one instance where you put that into some [00:39:00] type of campaign specific structure. What are your thoughts? On this broken up sales, uh, and marketing motion. And what's the solution at this point? Because I'm a believer we are in what I like to call the multiplier economy, that you have to create so much trust and value throughout the entire process that if you're not creating a multiplier at every step, you lose before you get to the end. So the SDR motion, in my opinion, kind of breaks that. What are your all's thought? And I, and honestly, this is for all three of you, because I think you three are very, very. Specifically qualified to speak to this stuff. Ted Purcell: I'd love to hear from you guys on this one, actually. Matt Amundson: Yeah, I mean, it's a tough question. I think, uh, I think the, the value of having an SDR or a BDR or whatever you're calling them today, sort of cold calling into an organization and trying to, uh, drum up interest. And actually turning that interest [00:40:00] into a real sales cycle is, I don't know, like, I never like to say something's definitively dead. It's just, it's not effective at all. And I think like in just about every sector that that is true, the, the, the, the sort of cold outbound prospecting, um, I still think that there can be value in the right, organization to have sort of a, a, a value added benefit where somebody can have a conversation with a prospect before they speak to a salesperson. Uh, but it can't, it's, it's got to add value and not just for your own brand, but to the prospect, they should be able to learn something from that experience before they go on that should get them excited to go have the next call. Although excited may be, uh, Maybe too hyperbolic, that at least like gives them momentum to go into the next call. Um, I think if you still run a heavily inbound motion, uh, an SDR can be [00:41:00] very valuable in terms of, you know, providing resources to, to, to folks that are coming through the inbound. Hey, I'm not really ready to talk to a salesperson. I need to know more information about this. Let me give you some resources. Hey, we're doing a webinar on this, whatever. You can come join that. I think. The person who's trying to push somebody into a meeting who's truly not ready. That's never really worked and is especially not working now because I do think you can get some brand erosion from an experience like that. So I think if you can build a motion for your SDRs that enables them to personify your brand and create a great experience for a person in whatever interaction you want them to have with a prospect or customer, then it's still meaningful. But SDR that way. Ted Purcell: So first of Craig Rosenberg: all, Judd, um, did you just, I, I, the reason I didn't answer first is I was trying to pick myself off the ground because you [00:42:00] said what I like to call the multiplier economy. Yeah. That was Ted Purcell-esque. Don't you think, man? I mean, that was He motivate, I just, Judd Borakove: I could feel it off of him. Craig Rosenberg: And then number two is, is dead. So, I mean, look, here's, I'll just restate the problem. We are in like, um, a nuclear pipeline. Um, moment here, because One is a lot of the things on the, on Matt's tool set are not working that great, right? Like the paid search and content syndication and like just basically form fills in general, right? Webinars, you know, all those things that were like played the playbook for demand gen, those things broke, right? Now they're not dead, right? They're not dead. SDRs aren't dead. It's just here was the issue is that what we used to do is we'd say, okay, well, cool. So marketing's going to do a marketing led pipeline because they got this playbook there to come in. They're going to run this thing. They're going [00:43:00] to drive these MQLs, or even if they do ABM, whatever that might be, they had this plan. We filled the rest of the pipeline with outbound SDRs. So we were like the, everyone's talking about how they have this pipeline. Uh, there's a crater in the pipeline. Well, yeah, because you used to just go, you know what, just go hire 30, 20 or something kids and just give them a sales engagement tool and let's go and we could fill the rest, right? Now you can't. So in that case, Judd, you are right. Like that, that. Model, uh, has sort of crumbled a bit and fallen apart. Now I will say we don't know the next step, right? Because we had a messaging problem and we didn't care. That was part of the issue for 12, 13 years, whatever you want to call it. Like, you know, I remember we'd go in and I'd have some fancy term and we'd go train the SDRs and they'd say, this is great. And then it didn't matter because the SDRs could run a templated outbound push into particular personas. And they. would send enough so that they could get [00:44:00] meetings. Nobody cared. Yeah. It worked fine. Mediocre worked fine. And now, um, so we're just paying the price on mediocre. That's why, like, um, you know, there's new tools that will allow us to, to enable SDRs to add more value. They, going cold is the issue, right? Like, if you In a coordinated attack, right, like a, a orchestrated, um, campaign, where, because brand matters on, on response rates, right? It just does now. Right. And that's why, you know, a lot of the things that were sort of traditional marketing has come into play here. If nobody will do, even with great messaging, I mean, not nobody, but an email from someone asking for a meeting without some brand recognition, and they're not going to take the time to go look at, look it up. Right. So that, sort of value [00:45:00] added email of some place where you can add value to them that's in conjunction with them having some brand recognition, um, and some is probably understating it a lot, is, is, I believe is still going to be effective. We still, though, will not put up the 30 to 40 meetings a month numbers that we were seeing. Because those 30 to 40 meetings a month, those were filling the pie. Now, that's like, what's the number one theme? Ideal customer profile. It's like, 14 years, 15 years, whatever, people saying you gotta get more targeted. It didn't matter. It didn't matter. They'd go, yeah, let's go do this. Craig Topo, let's go do this ICP exercise. Then it's like, where is it? Oh, it's over there on the shelf. Now you can't afford that. We got to choose the account with the type of accounts and markets we go after. And we got a brand to them. We got a market to them. We can send messages to them in [00:46:00] conjunction with those things. Events have become like mission critical. If you are getting people, not trade show booths in a, like in, in, in a isolation, like hosting things, getting people face to face, getting in front of people, being where they are. Um, all of those things are critical, but you know, it's very hard to do. in a mass marketing type of way, you have to identify who that sort of segment of accounts that you're going to go after to go do that. So I'll answer your questions. Do I think, um, SDRs are dead? Their current incarnation is, is, it's fleeting, right? But like the next. They're, everyone's got a pipeline problem. And otherwise, Matt's going to get gray hair finally, because he's going to have to fill the entire funnel across every segment and market. That's just not going to work. Then what's also not going to work is going, Oh, well, the sales reps need a prospect. Now I'm not saying they don't, but they can never get the volume we were at before. We're [00:47:00] just not going to get there. So there has to be that solution in the middle. Uh, automation is, is truly, I think we'll see. Um, you know, I believe that we'll have, uh, basically autonomous inbound SDRs in the next couple years. That, that, that's, that's like happening today. Like, we don't need to hire people to go in there and make sure that a lead gets routed to them and that they follow up with an X amount of minutes and whatever, and it's all a template. Like that. And that will allow us to focus on the, the, uh, enterprise reps, the target account reps, um, from an SDR perspective and work in conjunction with the brand and with marketing and create some high, you know, high value messaging. The other thing too is like, if you do build the brand, one of the biggest killers in my opinion is the offer to have a meeting to find out more about what's happening in their life to see if it's a fit. That is not high value. [00:48:00] Right? Unless they, you know, came in for a demo. We have to figure out what they want to talk about. And whether we've built the trust, um, a grit based authenticity on the market that allows them to believe that we are the right people to go talk to about that. Uh, those are new things. Those are things we haven't had to do before, and we're going to have to go look at. So, Judd? The previous incarnation of just batch and blast SDRs is dead. I think inbound SDRs are going to transform into more autonomous. I think outbound there's, um, if people are still doing mass market outbound, that will probably become more automated. And then on the high value accounts, automation will help. But, like, at the end of the day, we have to find a way, as a group, to figure out what it is that those people want to talk about, what will resonate, um, and, and that's going to be the key to that next level of SDRs. But, with the caveat, it'll never be the numbers [00:49:00] that we used to have. Ted Purcell: Never. Wow. You know, those are all great points, and I agree with asking that question, because, man, I don't have clarity on this. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. Um, I, I started in the business as an SDR and that was before the Martech revolution. So you didn't have any tools at your disposal. And it was email and there was websites, but you just didn't have the digital tools. Or you can say crutches in a lot of ways. Taught you the, in order to be successful, you had to build the muscle to generate activity that then led to understanding the customer's context a bit better to win. I feel like I, the biggest way that I'm looking at this right now, I [00:50:00] guess I didn't really grammatically make any sense, but, um, you know, public Craig Rosenberg: school guy. Grit based authenticity. Judd Borakove: We'll just keep saying grit based. It's great. I, Ted Purcell: I, I, I take, I actually wrote down multiplier at every step, because that's such a... Multiplier Craig Rosenberg: economy, actually. Thank you. Thank you. Ted Purcell: Multiplier at every step, because I agree with that. That's an excellent term, and, and when you think about that, that's what you need. Um, is to, to look at the roles and responsibilities starting at the highest level, the most valuable individual contributor roles in an organization. And look at the activity that they're doing and they need to do in order to be successful and then stack rank that, those activities. And at the end of the day, you're trying to make them more efficient. And to your point, it's not the same quantity. So you're going to have to make it up with quality and the age old [00:51:00] adage of quality, you know, back in the day it was quality in quantity, right? Thanks. I'll take everything. Thank you so much. Um, but trying to create, um, More efficiency for the highest quality activity that an individual can do in these high tech based go to markets. And depending upon the size, it totally changes the company in the maturity of the category and all that stuff. So I take this with a caveat because when you're in a big company, you've got all sorts of resources that are high value. Um, smaller companies, it's not the same. Um, but what I would say is... Simplicity oriented thinking. You look at this like the account executive and the customer success manager, in my opinion, are the two most. Highly valuable resources and the CSM, I don't view as a revenue chaser as much, and this is debatable depending on the size, but that they are [00:52:00] focused on generating value, generating, adoption and all the things that come from implementing, managing and maintaining, and then optimizing your, your solution. So then you unpack that to decide what is it you need to do. In order to take, to free them up to do that the best they can with the highest value activities and with an AE, let alone a CSM, you're going to get to the point where you need to create pipelines, so then you go back to an SDR or BDR and you, as we all know, um, you're asking the least experienced person in the entire company to do the hardest job in the company, which is to generate net new pipelines. awareness and demand. And I, although it is an amazing experience and I did it myself and I still remember it like it was yesterday, Craig, when you and I were in it at Pure Software with Stecker and that whole crew of people that were amazing. And you were literally trying to make the people, you're trying to win, trying to make the most, most calls, have the most conversations and make the people around you laugh the most. At [00:53:00] least that's what we did. And I thought that created the best environment and was also the funnest. And that was also back in the early days when they first started to have cappuccino and espresso machines in an office. And I started, first started drinking those. He literally powered them all day, laughing, dialing, and just trying to. Get people into conversations to generate meetings, opportunities, and win. And so this is what I'm really struggling with right now on the SDR and BDR front. What is the activity that they can be successful at? Not just doing things that aren't adding value or creating conversion, engagement, conversion, whatever it is. But what is the activity that you need them to do where they can actually have success and they won't be spinning their wheels, given all that context that you guys just rightly laid out. This is where I'm, I don't have clarity and I'm trying to figure it out every single day. Because it's so challenging to figure out [00:54:00] what they can do where they can be successful at it. How do you get them out over their skis? And yes, it used to be, well, they're not on the phones, they're not in the office, they're not making calls. And it's like, well, look at their email stats and look at their calendars and all these things that you would do to quantitatively look at somebody's effort. Or qualitatively look at what they're doing that actually is adding value and creating a next step, a meaningful next step. And this is the quality over quantity thing for BDR is marketing organizations, sales, selling organizations, CS organizations. I find that, that. isolating the highest value activities of what the roles in the organization have to do, and then pulling out the lower value activities they need to do to see if the other roles within the organization can do that. To help make them more successful, more [00:55:00] efficient, more productive, all that kind of good stuff. So that's why I look at that whole personalization journey that you guys are talking about. Awareness is step one. Then you want to create some level of personalization or massive. So To, uh, to create a level of engagement. So you, the more you engage, the more you're likely to convert. And we all know you want to get higher and wider in an organization. So you got to do it somewhat at scale and you got to find out who the right people are. This is just all of it has to happen. Everything that you guys are talking about has to happen. And at the end of the day, you have to create multipliers at every step. There Craig Rosenberg: he is. By the way, let's just mention one thing on the. Part of this next revolution on the SDR side will be tech. Cause the latest bump we had was... Uh, contacts, because Ted and I used to have to use magazine subscriptions. And sales engagement tools. This next layer of AI will start to I I'm not that guy that [00:56:00] just always gravitates to it, but you can see it. Right? We're there. It's going to take away Monday tasks on the SDR side. And it's going to be able to look at all the things that work and don't work and be able to put that stuff in front of SDRs. And so anyway, I'm ex I'm, I'm excited for us all as an industry to solve it, but it's a multiplier economy based on grit based authenticity, sometimes leveraging what I like to call concierge based selling process Judd Borakove: or wait, that's the trifecta right there. What's that? Ted Purcell: You ever see the Craig Rosenberg: movie Legally Blonde? Of course. I mean, well, not of course. I mean, yeah, I've heard of people that have seen it. Yes. Judd Borakove: Ted, you're coming back in just to get him to say stuff like that. It's Ted Purcell: an amazing the star of it. She's amazing in the movie. My favorite, and this reminds me based on what [00:57:00] Judd just said, is he likes to call, because that term is so rad and pompous in the same sense. Do you remember the attorney that came out of the of the courtroom? He's being interviewed on the front steps of that courthouse and they asked him, you know, Mr. Counselor, how do you expect to win the case? And he looked into the camera and he said, I like, I plan on using a little something I like to call. Strategy. Craig Rosenberg: And with that... Okay, pal. Oh, big time in it with that. Alright. Thanks, Ted. Judd Borakove: One thing, Ted, for all the people watching and listening, What's the one thing they should be either thinking about doing or trying to change to improve and get, get things kind of growing again? Oh Ted Purcell: man, I, it's human trait. Um, you know, humans are inevitably curious, putting aside sellers, customers, [00:58:00] everything, human beings. In this time where the whole world seems like a frickin powder keg, shit's going down everywhere, let alone the economic environment. It's just, I feel like curiosity ultimately wins. And I feel like if you think through that lens of trying to create value through education, to Craig's point about events and activities together that helps people learn more. And help learn what other people just like them are doing and opening up that aperture of curiosity and willingness to change in a highly passionate way. I just feel like it's not rocket science. I just feel like that's the best thing that we could be doing. Awesome. Craig Rosenberg: Thanks, Ted. GO Dawgs. Judd Borakove: See you guys. Thanks, Ted. Thanks, Ted. Hey. Like Ted Purcell: America. Matt Amundson: Thanks, man. [00:59:00]