Being acquired is a dream that many tech entrepreneurs work towards. It’s what’s known as having a successful exit. And rightfully so.
It’s a badge of pride for the co-founders who have successfully navigated an acquisition. So who would’ve thought that as a 27-year-old co-founder looking at multiple offers for his company, Kevin was about to enter one of the most difficult periods of his life?
Happy entrepreneurs build happy companies, with go…Tweet This
Kevin shares in raw detail the reality of what happens when you lay it all on the line for your company, working as though burnout can’t happen to you. And it’s not the ending you’re expecting.
This isn’t a Cinderella story ending that you read about in magazines like Fortune and Inc or the many business podcasts out there.
This is a story about the highs and lows of running a high-growth company, the lasting effects of making decisions with a scarcity mindset, and what the future looks like when you’re burned out, disillusioned, and are holding on to just a glimmer of hope.
[2:14] The vital belief Kevin holds about entrepreneurship
[2:59] How Kevin made his first $1000 in high school
[4:20] Kevin’s situation when he became CEO of a startup, and how that impacted how he worked
[5:31] How Kevin and his team responded to multiple offers to buy his company
[6:35] The life event that changed everything
[7:34] Why Kevin’s mindset shifted, and what it cost him
[9:29] How turmoil in the founders’ personal lives hurt their business
[10:45] The things entrepreneurs don’t talk about (but need to)
[14:10] Why your mindset matters
[16:49] What Kevin has learned from his previous experience at a startup CEO with a successful exit
[19:12] What Kevin hopes to achieve with his role at PowderKeg
[20:18] The business decision Kevin made for his family
[20:52] The sacrifice Kevin isn’t willing to make
[22:00] The new habit has helped Kevin maintain the balance in his life
[22:46] How Kevin’s kids are an early indicator he’s getting off track
[24:08] What being in “Flow State” has done for Kevin’s business and life
[25:30] Kevin’s parting advice to entrepreneurs who want to crush it at work and thrive at home
[26:48] The resources Kevin recommends
[27:36] Kevin’s definitions of success…both at home, and at work
Taking the long-term into account will cause some …Tweet This
Special Thanks for Shelbyville Pharmacy
for Sponsoring Season 1 of Home For Dinner. Check out their website
, or see what’s happening on Facebook!
Read Full Transcript
Philip Devine: At first glance, Kevin Bailey is unassuming. He’s got an easygoing, laidback, conversational tone. And when you sit down to talk to him, you realize he’s sincerely interested in you as a person. But what you don’t see are the scars and hard-fought lessons learned that have impacted Kevin’s outlook on entrepreneurship and life today.
Philip Devine: Being acquired is a dream that many tech entrepreneurs work towards. It’s what’s known as having a successful exit. And rightfully so. It’s a badge of pride for the co-founders who have successfully navigated an acquisition. So who would’ve thought that as a 27-year-old co-founder looking at multiple offers for his company, Kevin was about to enter one of the most difficult periods of his life?
Philip Devine: Kevin shares in raw detail the reality of what happens when you lay it all on the line for your company, working as though burnout can’t happen to you. And it’s not the ending you’re expecting. This isn’t a Cinderella story ending that you read about in magazines like Fortune and Inc or the many business podcasts out there. This is a story about the highs and lows of running a high-growth company, the lasting effects of making decisions with a scarcity mindset, and what the future looks like when you’re burned out, disillusioned, and are holding on to just a glimmer of hope.
Philip Devine: So that’s the question: Can you be a successful entrepreneur and still have a healthy, growing family life? Welcome to Home for Dinner, a series focused on exploring that very question. Maybe you can have it all, or maybe not. (Silence)
Kevin Bailey: I have a pretty strong belief that happy entrepreneurs build happy companies with good cultures that create products that help the world in some way or another. And frustrated entrepreneurs and executives that have a poor home life tend to build products and companies that have lacking cultures that might build products that maybe don’t add much to humanity.
Philip Devine: Did you start out with that kind of view, or did you see an example that kind of … was there a pivotal moment where you said, “Okay, this is the way I’m gonna pursue entrepreneurship?”
Kevin Bailey: Yeah, I mean, I’ve seen it all over the place. And I also lived it in my own company. Growing up as a kid, I was the first kid in my high school to basically learn to code and build websites. That made me … well, I guess I learned how to code, build websites on my favorite automobiles, and that allowed me to … once I figured out how to do search engine optimization, monetize it. So I was the first kid in my high school to bring an advertising check in for 1,000 bucks plus and show my friends, which kind of got everybody excited, including two people, Aaron Aders and Jeremy Dearringer, who asked me to mentor them on how to build websites themselves so they could go from delivering pizza for seven dollars an hour to making cool grand in advertising revenue. And this was way back in like 1996-1997.
Kevin Bailey: I taught them how to do it. They also were car enthusiasts. Built websites on their favorite automobiles, and we all started making decent income from that. Started building real estate websites. Then we all went off to college, and I … tech bubble burst when I was in college. I decided … always been ambitious. So I was like, “Well, market finance sounds like an interesting profession where it’ll challenge me.” So I went into … I switched from tech into that, made a double major at Indiana University Kelley School of Business in finance and accounting. Came out of that, went into consulting in Chicago, which was a great business experience for you to learn how to build a good business.
Kevin Bailey: I was considering a career change, and I came back through Indiana. Those two friends that I had mentioned in high school were starting basically a web development company called Slingshot. And they said, “Hey, you have a good business pedigree. We’re just kind of getting this off the ground. What do you think of joining us?” That point, I had no family. No kids. So I decided, what the hell?
Kevin Bailey: So I wrote the business plan, became the CEO of that company. And kind of getting back to what I said about happy entrepreneurs create good companies. At that point in my life, I felt I had never really experienced challenge to any extent in my life. Maybe as a kid a little bit, but outside of that, felt like the world was my oyster and I could do anything I wanted. Had a very abundant mindset. And we just sort of shot for the clouds, and we ended up hitting it. Our company grew over 100% a year for five years straight. Some years 3-400%, obviously in the early years. Scaled to 100 employees, we had 10 million dollars in revenue. And we were at the point where we hit 10 million dollars in revenue. And we were a scaled technology company, so we were doing marketing services through some technology.
Kevin Bailey: At that point when we were at 10 million dollars in ARR, we had three companies approach us to acquire us for about … tens of millions of dollars. The top was about 60 million dollars. Again, we’re all 27-28 years old. We didn’t even have investors. It was just us. We owned 100% of the company with some stock options for some of our employees, so we were floored. And we had built a culture at our company of … kind of what I was alluding to before. I had this abundant mindset, and so did my two partners, so we had this culture where everybody thought they could do anything. And we had superheroes in our company. I wouldn’t say we were the most mature tech company in the world, but we were ambitious, and we did what we said we could do. We had a great track record of success.
Kevin Bailey: But when we got those offers to buy our company, and we realized truly what we had, and all eyes were on us … we had press calling us “The Cinderella Story of Indianapolis” and stuff like that. But we started to let a little bit of fear creep into our minds. And this happened to be right about the same time where I had my first kid, Phoenix, who’s eight now. And it was a crazy time. We ended up trying to get bought by the highest bidder. And they were professional buying companies, large … ABC Holding Company. And they ran us over the coals, worked us til we were blind. It was working 100 hours plus a week, and I was trying to manage a company and trying to manage a transaction. The average buying process, diligence process, is six months in our industry.
Kevin Bailey: So it was a really trying time, and I was also trying to make a relationship work with a girl who I had never gotten married to that I’d accidentally gotten pregnant, and I was kind of feeling out that experience, trying to make it work ’cause I had a kid there. For me, it was very challenging. As I’m trying to sell this company. And as I was letting this fear creep in about: What do we have here? What if we lost it? What if this is my only shot? What if the industry changes? A lot of changing going on in the digital marketing industry, constantly. And we got this mentality that maybe we weren’t the right people to bring us through the transaction. That maybe we should bring in some senior, senior talent to help us shape this company to be more operationally sound as we moved forward into a bigger future.
Kevin Bailey: So I ended up stepping down as CEO into a president role, and we hired a CEO in. And we did this while we had this fear mindset going. So what type of a CEO did we hire? Did we hire one that was going to have a similar attitude as us, this abundant mindset, or did we hire somebody who would protect our capital, you know?
Kevin Bailey: And we ended up … because we were in a fear mindset, hiring somebody who was a lot more … kind of like bringing in cognitive dissonance into the operation with a person who did not resonate with our culture. So that proceeded a downfall in revenue that lasted for years. Lost a lot of our sales team, just a lot of inner turmoil among leadership because we brought the wrong CEO in, because we wanted to bring someone in who could protect our company rather than grow it. And that ultimately led to the company significantly going down in value.
Kevin Bailey: We ended up exiting for it at far, far less than what we had at that top period. And I know that a lot of what happened is that because I and the other two founders … ’cause our mindsets had shifted because we became fearful and less happy and had a lot of other turmoil in our personal lives and stuff. My other partner had a kid, in this case, with his wife. But lots of pressure there. We took our eye off the ball, and the acquisition process didn’t help at all on that. And once I’d lost complete passion for the business and stop and I look back at it, I was able to kind of see … when you are source for a business, when you are the founders, and you set the energy tone for the entire business and the culture, and when you guys shift, the culture shifts with you.
Kevin Bailey: So I was able to kind of see that firsthand. And then talk to some of my friends who also run businesses about it, and see a lot of similar experiences. And when I meet entrepreneurs, I often ask them questions to try to figure out where their mind’s at, what is their mindset? And try to help them maybe cultivate a mindset that brings them a better business scenario for the company. Or maybe they have a belief that’s holding them back. I like to look for that stuff. But now I’m at Powderkeg, because I’m passionate about helping entrepreneurs get through the gauntlet that I had to run through and maybe in a more productive way than I did. And help them, like you’re championing in this podcast, pay attention to the things that … to the stuff that nobody talks about.
Kevin Bailey: We always talk about revenue. Talk about sales, we talk about marketing. We talk about product. But we’re not too often talking about, “Are you happy? Are you feeling fulfilled? Are you enjoying your entrepreneurial journey?” So that’s one of the things that I’ve brought to the Powderkeg with Matt, is just there’s mental, physical, and spiritual fitness that needs to be taken into account when you’re becoming an entrepreneur if you want to actually get through the marathon and not break down.
Philip Devine: I’m Philip Devine. Stay with us. You’re listening to Home for Dinner.
Philip Devine: What comes to mind when you hear these things? A custom, curated reading collection. Locally-brewed kombucha and small-batch, hard-to-find soda. No, this isn’t some hipster hotspot where guys in flannel shirts with sculpted beards and ladies with large hats hang out. Although that would be cool, too. This is Shelbyville Pharmacy, a local, independent pharmacy owned and operated in central Kentucky by Jason Underwood. And while you won’t find any pallet walls inside or Edison light bulbs suspended from the ceiling, Jason did play with the idea of suspending a kayak from the ceiling. But more on that later.
Philip Devine: Anyway, we’ve all been in the chain pharmacies with harsh lighting, cold, metal, shelving, and an impenetrable wall between you and the pharmacy staff. It’s not the best experience for anyone. What you will find, though, is that everything is hand-picked in Shelbyville Pharmacy. And there are things that you don’t normally notice but were done on purpose. Things like warm LED lighting, a swinging half-door at the front counter so that he and the team can easily walk out and help you, wood-grain fixtures and earth-tone colors for a more natural feel, and professionally balanced speakers for the perfect blend of background music.
Philip Devine: Now you can let your friends know that you got your prescriptions filled at a pharmacy that literally hand-picked everything in the store. From the types of light bulbs to the waiting seats, which you never use because your prescription is always ready, to the products on the shelves, and yes, even the medication you get. So special thanks again to Jason Underwood and the team at Shelbyville Pharmacy for sponsoring this season. Make sure you take a minute to stop by and say hello.
Philip Devine: For more information on Jason Underwood and the team at Shelbyville Pharmacy, check out their website at www.shelbyvillepharmacy.com
Philip Devine: In a six- to twelve-month period, you guys were approached by three acquisition firms about buying your company, and you were going through that process. You hired a CEO who ended up not being a great fit, and two of you guys had babies on the way during this …
Kevin Bailey: Yep.
Philip Devine: I mean, when it rains, it pours. And it … yeah. I can’t imagine the pressure you were feeling, but … and you attribute a lot of that, or most of it, I guess, to the fact that your mindset shifted from one of abundance to one of fear and scarcity. Can you talk a little bit more about that? The mindset piece. And the reason why I want to dig into that a little bit is that I’ve heard that on other podcasts and Inc Magazine and stuff like that, you hear about the mindset, the mindset, the mindset, and I haven’t really heard it in the context that you’re talking about. And I haven’t really heard it in a way where all these things were happening. It was the mindset that changed or could have changed the trajectory of the outcome. So yeah, can you talk about that a little bit more?
Kevin Bailey: You know, we all have our belief systems. My belief is that your thoughts and your beliefs kind of set the precedent for your actions. Your subconscious mind being something like 95% of your thoughts. Your subconscious mind starts to turn in a direction that’s not in alignment with where you’re trying to go consciously, it can throw a lot of roadblocks up. So I lost my confidence, my faith in myself, my belief in my own ability to run my company through the 100- to 200-person gauntlet, which can be challenging.
Kevin Bailey: And … I was running up against the same obstacles that every entrepreneur runs up against when you’re at that stage. It is intimidating, but I’m a competent person. If I had had the right mentorship, if I knew that … obviously, hindsight is 20/20. If I knew what I know now, I would have stayed in that seat and I would have got it done. I would have taken care of myself. I would have taken the time. I would have learned how to meditate. I would have taken the time to take care of myself and nurture myself through that. But you don’t know what you don’t know. You know?
Kevin Bailey: So but yeah. I mean, it was the going from a belief that I was capable of anything that I set my mind to, to coming into kind of transitioning into a belief that we were really lucky to have what we had. And feeling lucky is a really good mindset, but just to kind of feel like maybe we were not capable of bringing it to the next level. That lack of confidence manifests in lack of confidence across the whole team. ‘Cause if you are the leaders that everybody’s looking up to, and then you’re like, “Well, guys, we’ve done a great job here, but let’s bring in the adults to take this thing to the next level.” It’s a blow to everyone’s confidence, so that’s a very tangible example. But I know it all starts at some sort of sub-conscious belief system that starts to come into play, and your ability to work with your subconscious through those hurdles, I think, is either you’re going to be a success or a failure.
Philip Devine: What are some things you’ve done now to make sure that you don’t repeat those things that you went through before?
Kevin Bailey: While that acquisition process was in play, my relationship with Phoenix’s mother started to dissolve. We broke up. It was one of the scariest times of my life, and I knew that this transaction was probably gonna fall through, and I knew I didn’t have the … at that point, I was literally burnt out. So I didn’t have the gusto to come back in as CEO. Our CEO wasn’t working out, so it was a very dark period for me. Darkest of my life, for sure. And at that point, I didn’t have much faith, no spirituality to speak of, so I just kind of felt like I had basically lost the biggest opportunity of my life, or I was losing it, and there was nothing I could do about it.
Kevin Bailey: So during that time period where I was a mess, I met Ashley. And she’s been kind of an angel for me to help me understand that, “Hey, your life’s not over. I’m here. I want to do this with you. We can still have a family. We can still accomplish your dream when it comes to a family.” And my dream of a family is that a family is additive to your life, obviously. If you have a hard day at work, you can come home to a family that helps you find peace. So I’ve always had that kind of a vision. It wasn’t like that with my previous relationship. So Ashley gave me some faith and belief in that. And helped me, I guess, kind of get my confidence back.
Kevin Bailey: Did a lot of consulting in the interim, both working with other entrepreneurs as a coach, as well as doing some marketing and sales stuff. And built some really strong relationships in the community, some of the techniques and tactics that I have been talking about, about how we built Slingshot. And then the stuff I’m talking about right now, about mindset stuff. Helped a number of entrepreneurs in Indianapolis, helped their companies become more successful through getting a handle on their own mindset.
Kevin Bailey: And then Matt and I have been friends for a long time. Matt actually worked at Slingshot during the run-up. And I looked at my passion for helping entrepreneurs, and it’s not my only passion. I have lots of passions, particularly in the environment. And I said, “And I can go out and do mindset coaching or something, or I can work with you, Matt, on Powderkeg, and we can help a lot of entrepreneurs. And maybe, just maybe, if we do this right, we can help entrepreneurs both be successful monetarily, but also be successful personally.” And well, in tech in particular, where you have Moore’s law and the singularity nearing, and tech moving so quickly upward, growing so fast. I realize that we also need to lift our humanity up and scale it just as quickly, or you create a delta between tech and consciousness. That’s too big of a gap, and you create a society that nobody likes.
Kevin Bailey: So I’m at Powderkeg to kind of help scale that humanity. But yeah, Ashley has been a real ally in helping me figure out how to do Powderkeg now. I’ve been at Powderkeg for a little over a year, and I’m working just as hard as I did at Slingshot or harder, and now I have a family. At Slingshot, I didn’t. So I’m really having to keep an eye on that. Making sure that I make smart decisions that can help Powderkeg but also make sure that I can support my family.
Kevin Bailey: One tough decision I had to make recently is the business needs an office downtown Indianapolis. I live in North Fishers. That’s like a 45-50 minute commute sometimes. And I’d talk to Matt and be like, “You know, I’m the leader of this company.” I’m in the “integrator” role, which is a little bit like a COO. Sometimes what a CMO had. “But I have to work remotely sometimes, because that commute’s gonna cut out an hour and a half of my day that I could be spending with my family.”
Kevin Bailey: So keeping this top of mind, and not making every sacrifice on my family’s side for the business. I know is important for the marathon and important for the long run, even though it can cause some short-term pain in the business. I’d love to be in the office every day, but it’s just not gonna be possible.
Philip Devine: That’s a really good perspective. I think there’s … you said something that resonated with me, and I think will resonate with the listeners, is that taking the long-term into account will cause some short-term pain. And being okay with that is part of it. What are some indicators that you’re off track at home? So for me, for example, it is almost too easy for me just to dive into work, especially if my wife and I had an argument this morning and I just go to work and I just plow through and I stay a little later. It’s easier to just go to work than to deal with whatever I need to resolve at home, especially if it’s me that caused the issue.
Philip Devine: So what are some indicators that you’ve found in that scenario where you’re off-track?
Kevin Bailey: I do do a lot of meditation. It’s one thing that I learned during that acquisition process. It’s been really helpful for me to reflect. I know you’re not supposed to think much during meditation, but ultimately, when I get into a certain state, I can consciously reflect on things. So I try to first of all, become very aware of how you feel, and becoming very aware of how your partner feels, and aware of how your kids feel, I think is kind of step one to being able to understand when things are slipping.
Kevin Bailey: So I do keep an awareness of just how my whole family is treating me and how I’m treating them. But some of the first early indicators … I think it’s always interesting, it tends to start with my kids. My kids are a little bit more difficult with my wife, and they’re a little more distant toward me when I’m spending less time with them. So I can kind of … ’cause kids are like open vessels. They act exactly the way they feel, so you can tell when your relationship with your kids is starting to slip.
Kevin Bailey: And normally if my relationship with my kids is starting to slip, my relationship with my wife is starting to slip. So I kind of watch that. Maybe canary in the coal mine being your kids. That’s maybe kind of a dark reference, but it’s like when your kids start acting a little odd with you, they’re probably the first indicator.
Kevin Bailey: Just as far as my overall state of being, sleep is really an indicator. If I’m not sleeping well, clearly I need to do some things to kind of get my … some practices to kind of get myself back in a flow. Flow state is huge for being effective in business. Being effective as an entrepreneur. And so if I’m noticing that I’m having a hard time getting into a flow state, my anxiety’s high, my meditation’s not that great, those are indicators that I need to dive deeper into practices that will help me get grounded.
Philip Devine: Talk a little bit more about the “flow state”. Explain that.
Kevin Bailey: Okay. I mean, Tim Ferriss talks about it a fair amount, as well as a lot of other thought leaders. Flow state … proven it makes you close to four times more productive. Flow state is … I think … I don’t know if it’s an exact science, but it’s like a cocktail of every positive neurotransmitter that you can generate. Dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, et cetera. It’s kind of a cocktail of all the positive neurotransmitters running at the same time.
Kevin Bailey: So if you have those neurotransmitters running, you are going to be more focused. You’re going to be happier. You’re going to be quicker, faster on your feet, et cetera. So it’s, I think, when you’re in flow state, your … [inaudible 00:24:45] called it parasympathetic system is active, which is basically your calm, your relaxed, your focused state. The opposite, I think it’s called, when your sympathetic nervous system is active, and that’s when you’re in fight or flight. Breathing from the top of your chest, and you’ve got so much on your mind, so many infinite loops going on in your head, you can’t stay focused. And because of that, your productivity drops significantly.
Kevin Bailey: So you’re constantly trying to contrast those two states and stay in the one where you’re in flow. ‘Cause if you’re an entrepreneur, and you can be four times more productive, you want to be in that state as much as humanly possible. So we do some breathing exercises at Powderkeg in the morning to help the whole team get into group flow, and then kind of take it from there.
Philip Devine: What advice do you have for listeners? For people who want to crush it at work and still make it home for dinner?
Kevin Bailey: Just to keep in mind that the happiness of your home life is going to translate into more success in business, always, period. End of story. Like if you think that making a sacrifice at home is going to benefit your business, it may in the short term, but in the long term it’s gonna keep you down. So always be willing to make those short-term sacrifices, the business side for your family. And if your partners and your staff and/or your coworkers don’t understand or accept that, then you might want to find a different partner or a different job or a different company. You do this stuff to have a fulfilling and enriching life, not to be miserable.
Philip Devine: Sounds almost counter to what Elon Musk and those guys say, but then again …
Kevin Bailey: It’s not [inaudible 00:26:22]. It’s not preached. It’s definitely not preached by the Valley. At Powderkeg, we have a different perspective on things. We’re building high-growth, Midwest, outside-the-Valley tech startups in the heartland. We’re gonna build different kind of companies.
Philip Devine: What resource, book, or conference do you recommend for listeners? And it can be for your relationship with your wife or for work.
Kevin Bailey: There’s a really good book called Coherence by Dr. Alan Watkins. He also has a great TED talk. Coherence is about conscious leadership. So it’s about how to basically build a company that’s in flow state. He’s a scientist, so he goes into all the science and data around it. He consults with a lot of Fortune 500 executives on how to build teams that are in coherence, that are in flow state. So I think that’s a great book. Great book to read.
Kevin Bailey: And also check his TED talk out. Alan Watkins. I think it’s called “How to Be Brilliant Every Day”. I think that’s probably the best resources to read about what we’re talking about.
Philip Devine: How do you define success for your family? And how do you define success for your work?
Kevin Bailey: Success for your family is a place where you can recharge. So if you build a good family, I think that it’s a place where no matter how hard you’re working … and granted, if you’re gonna maintain a good family life, you’re gonna work hard. You’re gonna spend more time with your family, you’re gonna have to be very productive in the time you spend working. So you will leave it on the field, to an extent. So I think that having a family where you come home and you instantly start to feel re-energized, it starts to become additive to your life … I think that’s the goal. And definitely, that’s not going to happen all the time. Kids can be crazy, you know? Relationships can be tough. But that’s kind of the goal. That’s my measure of success in my family. Is it something that gives me energy?
Kevin Bailey: And then I would say it’s kind of the same with work. A true measure of success, though, I think it was like some quote from MLK, and if I can’t remember this I’ll butcher it, but he said, “Too often, we measure success by the size of our cars and material wealth. And it’s like, rather than how much did we impact humanity in a positive way? The quality of our relationships.” So overall success, I kind of hear what he’s saying. Monetary success is great. I’ve had it. I wouldn’t say that it’s the cure-all by any means. Success is about personal relationships and the joy you have on a day-to-day basis. Is what you’re doing bringing you joy? Are you in a joyful state? More than you’re in a struggle state. Granted, struggle’s really, really important, too. You have to struggle. It’s part of the universe, but success is highly related to impact.
Philip Devine: If the listeners want to hear more from you or get in touch, what’s the best way for them to do that?
Kevin Bailey: Yeah, they can email me at email@example.com
Philip Devine: Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen, and leave a rating and review so that we can get this important message out to entrepreneurs everywhere. I think Kevin said it best when he said, “Happy entrepreneurs build things that make the world better.” And happiness doesn’t start at the office. It starts at home.
Philip Devine: Check out our website, www.homefordinnershow.com
to get access to show notes, resources, and behind-the-scenes content only available to email subscribers. And reach out on Instagram. We’d love to hear about your successes and struggles in building a company without sacrificing your family. You can find us on Instagram at @homefordinnershow and email us at firstname.lastname@example.org
. Home for Dinner is produced by Devine and Company. This episode was written with help from Rachel White and Anna Tran. The music you heard in the show came from HookSounds.com and [Matt S. Mueller 00:30:30]. And I’m your host, Philip Devine. See you next time on Home for Dinner.
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