0:00

Your stuff is so wild, like

0:02

it's so avant-garde, so strange. It's

0:04

like, how do you know

0:06

something works? I mean, I have

0:09

to find it funny. Yeah. You

0:12

know, I have to find or be like fixated

0:14

on the idea in a sincere way. But then

0:16

it also has to have this kind of like

0:19

ring of like, and

0:22

this feels so pretentious, but for lack

0:24

of a less pretentious word, poetry.

0:26

What I'm getting is, you're

0:29

a poet. No, no, no.

0:32

Your words, I'm gonna echo

0:35

back what I'm hearing. No, this is the lead

0:37

clip. I'm a singer, I'm a poet, I'm an

0:39

artist, but I'm also

0:41

a man. That's

0:43

what I'm hearing. With needs. That

0:51

is the voice of the great John Early. John

0:54

Early is an incredibly talented

0:56

and funny and sweet person.

0:59

He's got a new comedy special that

1:03

came out on HBO Max called

1:05

Now More Than Ever. It

1:07

is such a funny special. It's really

1:09

one of a kind. It's a sort

1:11

of a mix of sort of cabaret

1:13

and stand up. There's a band called

1:15

the Lemon Squares. There's like sketches. It's

1:18

very avant-garde. He does an amazing impression

1:20

of Britney Spears singing. There's a

1:22

cover of a Neil Young song. It's

1:25

just like a really

1:27

extraordinary mix of things that

1:29

come together into this visionary

1:32

comedy special called Now More Than Ever. It

1:34

was nominated for Critics' Choice Award, which Old

1:36

Man in the Pool was as well. So

1:39

I'm gonna see him in a couple

1:41

weeks over at that. You

1:44

might know John from Search Party. You

1:47

might know him from his special he did

1:49

with Kate Berlant called Would It Kill You

1:51

to Laugh, which was nominated for an

1:53

Emmy. We have a great chat today. We

1:56

are in the year of 2024. denver

3:05

just added a third show

3:07

in denver and then i

3:09

am everywhere in texas dallas

3:11

houston san antonio austin try

3:13

to york rochester toronto atlanta

3:16

charlotte richmond's washington d c

3:18

we just added a los

3:20

angeles and chicago because the

3:22

people have spoken it demanded

3:24

what i do a so

4:00

hero, John and I

4:02

play brothers. Uh, we're

4:04

the imagined children in the dystopian

4:06

future along with the great Mary

4:08

Elizabeth Ellis. We talked about that

4:10

today. I hope you love it. Enjoy my conversation

4:12

with a great John Early. When

4:22

I was first introduced to you personally, it was

4:24

because you and I both worked on Jack the

4:26

Novak show. I was like behind

4:28

the scenes a little bit. And then you directed

4:31

the show beautifully. Thank you. Get on your knees.

4:33

And Jack, I remember being like

4:35

her way of describing you and John is

4:38

very serious about craft. You

4:42

wouldn't tell. You couldn't tell. Um, so

4:44

I love your special. One of my

4:46

favorite parts of the special is the

4:48

multiple times that you put a spotlight

4:51

on your parents. One of the times you say, uh,

4:54

I love anal or something. And then

4:56

you go hard spotlight on your parents.

5:00

Oh, how much do they know? And

5:02

how much don't they know? They,

5:04

I mean, there was like this beautiful moment in 2015,

5:07

maybe 2016,

5:10

when I did that to them for the first

5:12

time and they had no idea. It

5:15

was a beautiful moment. They were

5:17

truly like, I knew where their tickets were is at

5:19

Joe's pub. And we like, and we had the most

5:21

like clean shaft of white

5:24

light on them. And they

5:26

were totally shocked. And it

5:28

was like the most

5:30

transcendent moment of my life.

5:33

Um, and they must

5:35

love your comedy. They do. Okay.

5:37

Do it's really, really cool. It's

5:39

really sweet. And my, you

5:42

know, my parents were ministers and

5:44

Presbyterian ministers. And, and

5:47

then I kept doing that to them

5:49

like, like once a year, like at

5:51

the bell house and stuff. And so

5:53

they knew it was coming. But I

5:55

do think just like the cameras, the

5:57

energy and the crowd, their response, like

5:59

them hunched. that

8:00

has helped with your personal decisions. It's

8:02

not this whole like, what is sex? You know

8:05

what it is, therefore you have the choice to

8:07

do it or not, you know? It's not this

8:09

big like question, just like it's not

8:11

being hid from you all the time. I think it's probably

8:13

better that we're exposed to it. And

8:15

your answer, 14 year

8:18

old John Early is so earnest. And

8:21

when I watched that, I'm like, that's

8:23

the kid that you're making fun of

8:26

now on stage. Yes, exactly. How

8:28

much are you doing an impression

8:31

of that kid? I

8:35

mean, the reason that video is so funny,

8:37

and it was also literally still so painful

8:39

for me to watch, even though I put

8:42

it online, you know? It's

8:44

like, it is, I see

8:46

myself trying to be such a good

8:49

little student. Yeah. And a

8:51

good little boy is so heartbreaking. Not

8:53

too crazy flick, yeah. And

8:56

I think that so much of the thing

8:58

I'm doing on stage, someone argued

9:00

too much, but like so much something

9:02

especially in the special and especially with

9:04

my parents, and being like

9:06

kind of like, you know, being

9:09

a little angry adolescent, like it

9:12

is this very delayed rebellion.

9:15

Because I mean, there's video proof in

9:17

that news clip. It's like that I was like, I was

9:21

not, I

9:23

was completely buttoned up and you

9:25

know. So was I, I

9:27

was just full rule follower, student

9:29

government. I mean, I remember telling

9:31

like when my friends

9:34

would like wanna like try

9:36

drinking, I'd be like, we don't need

9:38

that. I

9:42

was like, we love pop

9:44

culture, we love watching movies.

9:47

Like, I don't need that. Like,

9:50

it was like, you know,

9:52

and thank God in some ways, but

9:54

I'm also like, God is the operative

9:57

word. Thank you

9:59

for clearly. I can't bring you

10:01

back. But yeah, yeah. But

10:04

yeah, in some ways it's like, you're

10:06

so earnest as a kid and we have video

10:08

proof of it. And then at a certain point,

10:11

was there an inflection point where you're like,

10:13

I'm going fully ironic and

10:15

I'm going the other way with it? Definitely,

10:17

I mean, that's, once

10:20

I started doing

10:22

comedy, this was this opportunity to

10:24

kind of correct the course a

10:26

little bit. Yeah. But

10:29

I have to say, the

10:31

reason why this special is particularly

10:34

special to me, I think it

10:36

is because there was finally a

10:38

synthesis of the incredibly earnest part

10:41

of me. And then

10:43

the little bitch. The little punk.

10:45

The little punk, who needs, yeah. And

10:49

that is... And

10:52

the singer. Yeah, which is

10:54

an incredibly earnest part of me. The

10:56

song Choices help kind of cut through that.

10:59

The singing itself is earnest

11:02

and it is just about wanting

11:05

people to have a good time or wanting to move

11:07

people in some way. And

11:09

I've kind of, I've never filmed it

11:11

because I was embarrassed

11:13

by that desire. This

11:15

is a weird thing to say about a comedy special. I feel

11:17

good afterwards. Totally,

11:21

I mean, that's the goal of also

11:23

ending with I feel love. Just

11:25

like I wanted people to

11:27

feel like they were leaving a party or

11:29

like the party was still going on. And

11:34

that's also why

11:37

Bette Midler and Sandra Bernhardt

11:39

are such, they're

11:42

like my primary live performance influences is

11:46

because of their relationship to music

11:48

especially. And they don't do

11:51

comedy songs. They just kind of

11:53

like, they'll be wild

11:55

and hilarious and then they just click

11:57

into a totally sincere song. which

12:00

is kind of old school. Your stand up, like my

12:02

stand up is very, in a certain

12:04

way straightforward in the sense that I go to

12:06

clubs, I try out 10 jokes, and

12:09

I sandwich them in between five minutes that work at

12:11

the front, five minutes that work in the back, and

12:13

then eventually I have new jokes. And then I formulate

12:15

those jokes into a thing. Your

12:17

stuff is so wild, like it's

12:20

so avant-garde, so strange. It's like,

12:22

how do you know something works and how do

12:24

you know you're like, that's it? Well,

12:28

I guess in the kind of traditional sense,

12:30

like I did go on tour before

12:33

this, and

12:36

it was very clear very quickly

12:38

what worked and what didn't based

12:41

on people's responses. But I also

12:43

think just internally there does have

12:45

to be a

12:48

feeling of like, I mean, I

12:50

have to find it funny. You

12:53

know, I have to find, or be like fixated

12:55

on the idea in a sincere way, like it

12:57

can't be kind of reverse engineer. You know, it

12:59

has to be something that I genuinely find. But

13:02

then it also has to have this kind of

13:04

like ring of like,

13:07

and this feels so pretentious, but

13:09

like, for lack of a less

13:11

pretentious word, poetry. Like a

13:13

little bit of like a- Oh. Oh.

13:17

Sorry we were looking at. Look

13:19

at the wall. But

13:22

like, I just, it did have a kind of

13:24

like, like

13:27

I was trying to sincerely

13:29

underneath the silliness say something,

13:32

communicated kind of like despair about

13:35

the state of the world, knowing

13:38

that it was maybe a little abstract, but

13:40

there was like something very sincere underneath

13:42

it and feeling that people were, I didn't have

13:45

to explain it, that I could just kind of

13:47

like drop it and

13:49

people understood

13:51

what was underneath it and that part of the joy

13:54

of it and what was funny was that it was

13:56

abstract and I was just going like, You

13:58

know, like. That's it's. very

14:00

vague what I'm saying, but it that

14:03

was when I'm grabbing as. You're.

14:05

A poet Up Up Up Up

14:08

Up Up Your words. I'm

14:10

gonna echo Mack what I'm here, no visible,

14:12

we were gonna. I'm gonna go back And

14:15

I'm hearing I'm a poet. I'm

14:17

a singer, I'm a poet. I'm an art. As. But.

14:21

I'm also a man. a. Cast

14:23

of them were aids. That

14:27

wasn't my sexual prime and. I

14:30

thought that. Sort

14:32

of a lives and the so that

14:34

I love I wasted by such. You're

14:36

right, it's so real isn't so bad

14:39

American national moment and especially because it's

14:41

like a thrown away ironic live. But

14:43

like this theory is a sense of

14:45

dread. that like I I feel that

14:47

way Lavelle With is literally how I

14:49

feel when when I walk. On to the

14:52

states and like. Ice

14:54

I'll have hang out a lonely anymore

14:56

and I have fans like people like

14:58

me and I liked in my Santa's

15:00

sleigh. My god that's so funny. Yeah

15:02

you're still used as a prime. Thank

15:05

you all the young good looking guys

15:07

the i think you're but don't do

15:09

that thing. As

15:12

say that not. Sort.

15:14

Of codify gotta get only mean by

15:16

the yeah yeah. So. As

15:18

you people in a series again

15:20

and do it again. So years since.

15:23

You're sexy. Young. Man think

15:25

you. See

15:30

this. Is

15:33

on record as the deeply hilarious person

15:35

when you and Kate were work on

15:37

your sketch show which is only for

15:39

an emmy up playing through. We

15:43

gotta knock at. Amazon

15:45

than. It was

15:47

insane. So crazy I can't believe that

15:49

settles. Araya that when you're working with

15:51

T like you break each other. Yeah

15:54

to a point where it's like come

15:56

on we gotta make our das. We

15:58

gotta get these and yeah, I'm

16:00

worst about it and kate like

16:02

she is really. Like.

16:05

It's part of her. Genius.

16:07

or it's like part of what. Helps

16:09

her keep go own she says

16:11

like she's so committed and and

16:14

so real. Yeah. Like

16:16

in order to achieve that level of realism

16:18

my side you have to fully do it

16:20

whereas I'm like. Always.

16:22

On the edge of like laughing. So.

16:25

You, you're a poet. She's a junior. Imagine

16:29

they that without any inverse and see

16:31

the gene A Cs I'm but yeah

16:33

I last I really have trouble. I

16:35

really it's it's impossible with her. Would

16:39

even a like. This

16:42

was in one of our questions was like

16:44

what are you in if I wanna see

16:46

more of shows like the special are you

16:48

gonna tour with more this yes I mean

16:50

I that was like that was the thing

16:53

as as like touring that show and I

16:55

wonder even you two are all the time

16:57

yeah but like I really. Barely.

17:00

Do it and like. I

17:03

was like. So.

17:05

Maudlin after shows I would like go home

17:07

and like call caters on you know and

17:10

and I would be like. Bursting.

17:12

Into tears I was like this is like the

17:14

most incredible expense of her himachal. And

17:17

I'm sure I'll lose that you know if you go

17:19

on but lights but I really was a this is.

17:22

This is heaven if no one ever

17:24

wants to put me in anything yeah

17:27

like again, like. I

17:29

would be so happy doing this as as

17:31

like a dream. sigh I really rude and

17:33

I say like I figured something out with

17:35

the music in the comedy and like integrating

17:37

them more and I want to keep going

17:39

with that. Just. As I think

17:42

like I get sad. Because. I

17:44

feel like. You're giving people.

17:47

A completely original performance, that

17:49

isn't. It's like. How

17:51

you felt about Bed Miller? Thank you. That's

17:53

the goal. I

17:56

think it's I think they are experiencing that.

17:58

I hope I think they're like. You

18:00

just saw. Some. Then getting

18:02

my wife will say this to me. So go

18:04

to listen the audio recording of like nice dune

18:06

Chosen D C into the you know you shouldn't.

18:09

Make. So many jokes at your own

18:12

expenses that you're working out new material

18:14

to. This is a special experience for

18:16

the audience of you. Start to say

18:18

that it might take a little better

18:20

way. Yeah, the fact that you aren't

18:22

giving us your heart. yeah, jokes that

18:24

mightn't did. This show that you're doing

18:26

is unlike any other performance night ever

18:28

again. And now. yeah yeah, the couple

18:30

hundred people that room are the only

18:32

people who was mirza. That's a really

18:34

good point. Yeah. I had

18:36

their it. I'm the same way though I'm

18:38

like I have to preface let people know

18:41

like it's messy and and processors are you

18:43

know and like but it is the Ritz.

18:45

Like when you see that with after shows

18:47

overdone you see someone and they're like. That

18:49

was so gradually it wasn't like last night

18:51

was increased. yes you're sick. Last name was

18:54

like. The. Audience with and

18:56

say and it's Raise A Q I bought

18:58

tickets threats of totally. When

19:00

you in cake came to the old

19:02

man a pool and came backstage. I

19:05

was so. Moved by

19:07

it and but I was also like I was

19:09

nervous here in the eye and small july that

19:11

I although I have like when people I admire

19:13

in the audience has a guy my i think

19:15

of idle time. I. Know it's I

19:18

completely understand that. I don't know what

19:20

anyone says to do. Graphic.

19:22

You want people to com and then really great Know

19:24

I'm. right? Now or manga for

19:27

this person I admire so much The

19:29

local senior at Lincoln Center ah thanks

19:31

I mean and back says was posters

19:33

I was so funny at all these

19:35

original there's the artist did that one

19:38

right there in the bottom left hand

19:40

corner. Sama. When.

19:43

You. Sing. Britney

19:45

in this person gets.

19:48

you make the joke year

19:50

salary me rate is there

19:52

anything you go i feel

19:55

like i heard album three

19:57

sex ratios zig zags a

19:59

joyous and then you sing albums, read

20:01

track three. Britney, do

20:04

you know the other songs? Do

20:06

you know 10, you know 10, Britney songs? Yes,

20:08

because she has 10 singles at least.

20:12

I was never like an album Britney

20:15

stan, but I was

20:17

very into her as a phenomenon.

20:22

I was very, I

20:25

subscribed to Entertainment Weekly like as

20:27

a middle schooler, like that was my idea,

20:30

I asked my parents. So

20:32

I was very like, again, this is the Tracy

20:34

Flick, I like knew the box office. I was

20:36

like, oof, I was like, why West did not,

20:41

I knew the letter score that they gave

20:43

every movie. Oh my gosh, do people ever,

20:45

when you were touring it, because obviously you

20:47

got the rights to that Britney song. When

20:50

you were touring, did you ever do any of the other songs?

20:53

No, I only, because we only

20:55

prepared Overprotected. Well, so

20:57

with that band, we've done probably

21:00

over the years, like eight

21:02

Britney covers, but

21:05

none that we would be ready to just do

21:07

on a moment's notice. We have to really rehearse.

21:10

And like, so Overprotected was the choice, I had

21:12

gotten the rights, and that

21:14

was what we were going with. And the

21:16

joke was just gonna be, I will

21:19

stand here until someone organically

21:22

suggests Overprotected. And

21:24

sometimes it really, like, it

21:28

never happened quickly. But

21:32

sometimes it really just like would not

21:34

happen. And

21:37

I would have to like coerce it in other

21:39

weird ways, like, which was always

21:41

so fun and fun. Once people understood what

21:43

the joke was. So

21:46

we were in Taylor's video. Yes.

21:49

You and I have this thing in common, which is not only where

21:51

we end the video, we get asked about

21:53

it, I think, in

21:56

every interview. Well, in every family

21:58

function now. It's

22:00

a lot. We're a very small part of a cultural phenomenon.

22:12

What's hard? It's hard. It's

22:14

hard. It's been hard. How did she

22:16

know you? She know you from search party? Yes.

22:21

Yeah, and did she just text you?

22:24

Via Jack Antonoff, who I of course

22:26

know through Jacqueline. Yeah. And

22:28

you, but like, yeah, just

22:30

got a text from

22:32

Taylor Swift. Yeah,

22:35

same. As I was

22:38

like on my back after like a surgery

22:40

and I was like, this is crazy. And

22:43

of course like the apps, the responsible thing

22:45

to do would have to say, would have

22:47

been to say no because of

22:49

my back. But I was like, I have

22:51

to do it. This is

22:53

how, for me, this is

22:56

how bizarre that she and that

22:58

video was, I texted you. And

23:00

I said, just like, hey, cause

23:03

that was, you know, I knew like it was a secret. And

23:06

I didn't know who knew they were involved

23:09

and who didn't. Yes. And so I didn't.

23:11

I think I knew. Yeah, I

23:13

didn't want to ask anybody cause

23:16

you don't want to bother these people

23:18

who are all like major moguls. So

23:20

you just go, I'll show up on

23:22

the day. Yeah. They

23:25

texted you like, hey, are

23:27

you doing anything secret? Like July

23:29

19th or whatever? And

23:32

you're like, you're like, I

23:35

might be, yes. You know, and

23:37

it was just like very cryptic. I

23:40

know it was so top secret. That was the

23:43

coolest part about it was like getting there in

23:45

the call sheets, that something different. Yes.

23:48

You know, it was like for a different video,

23:50

like trailer version or something, even though it was

23:53

actually the new single. Yes. And

23:55

that was really cool. I

23:58

thought what was really cool on set. that was, because

24:01

she directed it was, first of all, the script was

24:03

really funny. I thought immediately I was like, oh, this

24:05

is hilarious. And the second of all, I was like,

24:08

she's really good at directing

24:11

us and also the

24:14

background actors. I know. And

24:17

like so calm and

24:19

breezy. It was like so nice. I

24:21

feel comfortable talking about it with you here because it's

24:24

a thing that we share, but like I try to

24:27

avoid it in like every interview. Because

24:30

it could be cut up and decontextualized. Yeah.

24:32

I was like, yeah. Well, I

24:34

didn't, yeah, I've already experienced that where

24:37

I like told a story on a

24:39

podcast on Mike, no,

24:41

sorry, your Mike on Moshua Natasha's

24:43

podcast. And where

24:45

they were asking me about it. And I had told this

24:48

story, which I think is so funny, which is

24:50

like where I, where

24:52

the joke, I'm trying to talk about my

24:54

own, just like deeply embarrassing moment where she

24:56

was talking to me about like, I

25:00

think because I asked her, I was like, is this the lead

25:02

single? I think is what I said.

25:04

And she was like, well, you know, the music industry's

25:06

changed a lot. They don't really do like lead singles

25:08

anymore. They kind of like post like

25:10

Beyonce dropping that album with all the videos at the

25:12

same time. It's like kind of like, you

25:15

like do it all at once now or you do a bunch

25:17

of things at once, you know. She's

25:20

telling me this. And I found myself going,

25:23

I was like, I was like, we've got to

25:25

get back to that time. I was

25:28

like, I was like, I miss that. I

25:30

meant it completely. I really was like,

25:32

I miss, like I'm talking about the Britney, like the entertainment

25:34

weekly of it all. Like I miss witnessing

25:37

the narrative, the press narrative, the drama

25:39

of who's the first single first video.

25:41

And then a few months later, you

25:43

get the next one. Like, and

25:46

then it's sustained. You

25:48

get like a year of like four

25:51

videos. And it's just so

25:53

much easier to kind of take in instead of like

25:56

everything at once, you know, whatever. I

25:58

meant it. And I was like, I was like. I

26:00

was like, what is the first thing? I was

26:02

like, that's Genis. And

26:05

then I realized, I was like, I'm talking

26:07

about the video that I'm in. Yeah. Like,

26:10

it's so transparent. Like, it looks like I'm just like, yeah, make

26:12

this one the first thing. Like, because I'm in the video. Like,

26:14

and I was like, oh no. Like,

26:17

I felt so embarrassed afterward. I

26:20

mean, she probably didn't think I was doing that,

26:22

but I was like, mortified. But

26:24

then, like, I told this story, and

26:26

this is what happened again. But I

26:29

told this story on their podcast, and then because

26:33

people are, this is

26:35

what I didn't realize, it's like there's

26:37

an army of people. Full-time

26:39

job. It's either actually their full-time

26:42

job, or it's fans who are

26:44

unpaid. Yeah, unpaid full-time. And are

26:46

just homing through everything that's

26:48

said by anyone ever. Yeah. And

26:51

they're looking for any mention of Taylor, and

26:54

they're like, you know. And then there were

26:56

literally multiple articles that are like, John Early

26:58

convinces Taylor Swift to make... No.

27:01

... antihero her first single. That's what is no

27:03

way. And I was like, I'm gonna die. It

27:06

said John Early convinces her? Yes, like

27:09

as if it was John Early's idea.

27:12

What a nightmare. And I was like, she's gonna see

27:14

that, or her press people are gonna see that, and

27:16

be like, that asshole. Like, going

27:19

around telling people it was my idea to make the lead single, which,

27:21

of course, was not the point of the story. The point of the

27:23

story is that I was like... Did

27:25

you challenge to say, hey, just so you know this

27:27

thing? I didn't. Yeah, I didn't know that

27:29

I was supposed to say that. So

27:54

this is called the slow round. So do

27:56

you have a nickname from your life that was really good or

27:58

really bad? Well,

28:01

the good one is Bajansi, which is tough. The

28:05

bad one is one that in sixth grade I

28:07

tried to tell everyone to call me Bo, because

28:09

my middle name is Bowman. I'm

28:12

sorry, that was in sixth grade? Sixth grade. I

28:15

was like, call me Bo. And not one person. It

28:18

never caught up. That

28:21

was bad. Call me

28:23

Bo. Nothing. It's just

28:26

Bo. It was your middle name? Yeah.

28:30

Bo. Yeah. Yeah.

28:32

John Bo earlier. Does anyone call you?

28:34

John Bo. John Bo. I

28:37

like, I love actually Johnny. I love when people

28:39

call me Johnny. It's like, it's

28:41

so sweet to me. Can you think of a time where you

28:43

were so scared you ran away? Oh

28:46

my God. Um, literally, yeah. I remember

28:48

when I like, when

28:52

I like came

28:55

out or sort of my friend,

28:58

the first person I came out to was like my best friend

29:00

in middle school. And she was like, I

29:02

wasn't coming out to her. She was like, we were

29:05

like talking and I thought I was being coded. Like

29:07

I was like, I was like, cause

29:09

I wasn't ready at all. I had no intention. And

29:11

I was like, but I, this is, I

29:14

thought this was coded. So I was like, you

29:16

know, when you've told someone

29:18

something like your

29:21

whole life, I was

29:24

like, but then you realize

29:26

that's not true. And she was

29:28

like, yeah. And

29:32

then I was like, but then you realize

29:34

it's not true. And then you have to

29:36

tell them, but

29:38

you're worried because they think the

29:41

original thing. And

29:43

it's, and I literally was like,

29:46

and she was like, yeah. And she was

29:48

like, are you? And then

29:50

I literally went like

29:53

road runner. I was like,

29:55

and I like ran. And I was like, oh my God.

29:57

So the bathroom, like at our school, we were at school and I like

29:59

ran. And I closed myself in the

30:02

bathroom. And then I was like, oh my God, oh my God,

30:05

I'm wet. And she was banging on the door. And then I

30:07

finally got out. I was like, la, la, la, la, la, la,

30:09

la, la, la. And called my parents to come pick me up.

30:11

And I was like, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la.

30:14

And then they came and picked me

30:16

up. And she was laughing. It was

30:18

like, it's okay. But I physically ran.

30:22

It's like what she was expecting

30:24

you to say was something so

30:27

short. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

30:30

So then after you ran away into the

30:32

bathroom, eventually you probably came out. A couple

30:34

days later, we like, I

30:38

had to go back to school. You

30:40

guys remember? Yeah. And

30:44

it was just like, she

30:49

was like, hi. It was like, it

30:51

had happened without me meaning to, basically.

30:54

And then after that, did

30:57

you come out to your parents? Not

31:00

for like six

31:02

years. Oh, wow. Yeah.

31:05

That's a long time. They knew though. Right, right.

31:07

I knew that they knew it was hell. And

31:09

so it was like, and then I just like,

31:12

I did a little, I guess I did it

31:14

in person with my mom when she like visited

31:16

me in college. But

31:20

with such, I was like glaring

31:22

as I did it. Because

31:24

I like refused to make it a moment.

31:27

Glaring as I did it. I

31:29

totally know what you mean of like, of

31:32

where you refuse somehow, there's something in you

31:34

that's like, I'm not gonna let you have

31:37

this. Like the Hallmark version, I'm not

31:39

doing it. Right, not gonna do the Hallmark

31:41

version. I'm not gonna let you have like

31:43

a narrative in your head. And that's

31:45

when John sat on the

31:47

bed and he took my hand. And

31:51

he said, there's something I have to tell you.

31:53

No, I was like, truly. And

31:55

then what was her reaction? She

31:57

was really hilarious. about

32:00

it really great, like I'm very lucky.

32:02

I was like, you know how I

32:04

procrastinate? Like

32:08

mad at her for no reason. I was like,

32:11

she was like, yeah. You know how I procrastinate?

32:13

I was like, you know how I procrastinate on

32:15

like papers. Oh my God. And

32:17

she was like, yeah. And I was like, well, I do it with

32:19

like life stuff too. Oh my

32:22

God. And she was like, yeah. And

32:24

I was like, and

32:26

then she said something kind of genius and

32:28

I'll never remember, but it was like, does

32:31

this have something to do with you

32:34

answering the door to like my uncle

32:36

from West Virginia wearing your sister's community

32:38

address, like first community address. And I

32:41

was like, yes, it was genius. Oh

32:43

my God. Yeah. One of my

32:45

first jokes in college when I started doing standup was after a

32:47

friend of mine, like my best friend in

32:49

college came out to me and it was,

32:53

he said, I'm gay. And I said, I know. He

32:56

said, I'm in the closet. I go, you have a big

32:58

closet has an in sync poster on it. Literally

33:02

did it. I mean, it might

33:04

as well. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was just

33:06

like long. It was long overdue. That's

33:09

really funny. Yeah. Stop

33:12

Tismal Gown. That's right. I'm just

33:14

want to make sure I'm representing her work on

33:17

this podcast. Do you want to pick it

33:19

up? Nope. Nope. Okay.

33:24

Did you, did your life go the way you thought it

33:26

would? I

33:30

mean, in some ways,

33:32

yes. Like I definitely, I

33:37

was hoping for the kind

33:39

of like the Bette Miller

33:41

thing. I

33:43

want to be absolutely clear and please leave

33:45

this in Mike. That

33:48

like the, like when I'm

33:50

talking about Bette Miller, I'm in no way can

33:52

like compare. Like I'm not trying to say like

33:54

I have the voice. Okay. Or,

33:56

you know, whatever, or the cultural impact. Someone

33:59

argued some possible. I don't even have that cultural

34:01

impact anymore with the fracturing of media. But

34:06

I just, I did want to be

34:08

like performing in New York. You're

34:10

saying you're a modern

34:12

day Bette Midler. Yeah. Let

34:14

me make sure I'm getting it right. You

34:18

wrote me an email where you said, Mike,

34:22

it's John. There's

34:24

no email. I'm a modern day

34:27

Bette Midler. Do you understand me?

34:30

And if you don't, I'm not coming on the

34:32

podcast. Sincerely, John Early.

34:35

Why'd you write that email? I

34:38

was scared. I

34:41

was scared. But

34:44

yeah, in that sense, yes, I wanted

34:46

to be in New York doing shows.

34:48

So you sort of saw it for

34:50

you. Even when you were a kid. Yeah.

34:55

Sex is real.

34:57

Sex is real. Sex is something people

34:59

do and you can choose to do

35:01

it or not to do it. Sexually,

35:03

no. Like

35:05

sexually, I thought that was gonna

35:08

be really different. I

35:10

thought my life would be very different.

35:12

Like I thought gayness would be really

35:14

different. Oh, interesting. Like I thought like,

35:19

you know, I thought romance

35:21

and sex would be very different. And it's

35:23

of course turned out to be its own

35:25

surprising, often enjoyable thing. But

35:27

you said often enjoyable. Seems like never.

35:31

It seems like yours is a hint of irony.

35:33

Yeah. Often enjoyable. Was it

35:35

because I looked directly at the camera? Oh

35:39

gosh. But in terms of

35:41

like, you know, art

35:45

and performance and stuff. Yeah.

35:47

Do you think you're more romantic than your partners?

35:50

Yeah. Interesting. I

35:53

could see that. You're such a sincere

35:55

person. Yeah. I

35:58

can be a little trickly or small to see. or like,

36:00

you know, and that's the Presbyterian in me.

36:04

That's the like, that's like the Southern. That's the

36:06

Presbyterian in you? The

36:10

Presbyterian, I just, this just in,

36:12

I just, the Presbyterian church has

36:15

made a statement. Oh no. Yeah, no,

36:17

they said, we do not stand behind

36:19

John earlier, any of his

36:22

statements about our church. There's no

36:24

printer, I don't understand what's happening.

36:27

But what do you mean by that? That's

36:29

the Presbyterian in you. I think there's like

36:31

a kind of Protestant kind of oversimplified,

36:35

maybe kind of like, we're gonna do

36:37

this the right way. And I'm

36:39

like cooking and you're like, and

36:42

I think that's in me and it makes me,

36:45

as a romantic partner, probably a

36:47

little insufferable. Interesting. And

36:50

maybe sometimes enjoyable. Like you want things just

36:52

so. Certain

36:56

things. Yeah. Yeah. I

37:00

get that. Yeah. And

37:03

I don't like it. It's a life of pain. Being like

37:05

that is your signing up for life of pain and

37:08

just constant disappointment. And it's so

37:10

unfair to your partner. Cause

37:13

it's like, they're always like, I have to,

37:15

they have to measure up to something they don't even know.

37:18

They don't, you're like, you have some

37:20

weird narrative about how a birthday should

37:23

be, or how a meal should go,

37:25

how meeting the parents, it's like, and

37:27

they don't share that for

37:29

sure. And then they're like always falling short.

37:33

It's funny cause there was like an article in the Times

37:35

over the weekend about like the things you should never say

37:37

in an argument in a relationship. And I

37:39

was reading them and I was like, and I was

37:41

like, some of them I was like, yeah, maybe a variation

37:43

on that. I was like pretty

37:45

good on the quiz. And

37:48

then the one that made me laugh was to

37:50

never say, I

37:52

never said that. Oh my God.

37:54

I'm like, oh, that's a good point. Because

37:56

it's sort of like, it, it, it,

37:59

it, it, it, it, nullifies what

38:01

the person's concern is. Yes, and

38:03

it's like legal. It's

38:05

like legal. That one spun me

38:07

in circles though, because I was like, but what if you

38:09

didn't say it? Yeah, what do you say if you didn't

38:11

say it? It was the only one where I was like,

38:13

yeah, it was like, what if you didn't say it? And

38:15

then the person said it. You say, I'm sorry you felt

38:17

like I said that. I'm sorry you felt like I said

38:20

that, until I didn't

38:23

present that thing in the rule. Having not

38:25

said that, comma. Having

38:28

not said that. What's

38:30

the best piece of advice anyone's given you in your

38:32

life that you used? Or

38:37

for that matter, were you ever at Tisch and you

38:39

had a professor who said something where you're like, I'll

38:43

never forget that. Yes,

38:46

I had one teacher who was like,

38:48

and I do think this is like,

38:50

it's like it was like a really

38:52

straightforward physical note, which is why I

38:55

was receptive to it, because it wasn't, it

38:57

didn't feel like therapy. But I actually knew what

39:00

she was saying was like very profound. She

39:04

was like, John, you're like, your

39:07

neck is like always like this. Like

39:09

your head is always up here. And she's like, you just have to

39:11

let it see your face. She

39:13

was like, just like, put your head down. Like

39:16

move your chin down. And I was like, oh, and

39:18

I was like, oh my. And like when I did,

39:20

I was like, oh. I didn't cry,

39:22

but I really did feel like, oh,

39:25

I am very deliberately kind of not

39:27

letting people look at me. And

39:30

I do think, you know, I do think

39:32

that like, you just do have to let

39:35

people look at you. You have to let

39:37

the camera like sit on your face and

39:40

like let it like, you just

39:42

have, that's like basically what it is. And that can be

39:44

very hard. And there's

39:47

so much contemporary acting too. That's

39:50

like the camera, because people are so

39:52

used to the camera being on them now. That's

39:55

not like, like looking at a

39:57

camera and like putting your image out there. There's

39:59

nothing that, no. longer costs anything. That's

40:01

not scary for anyone. But

40:04

doing that without doing this. We

40:08

are kind of like mouthing your lips

40:10

and changing your voice a little bit

40:12

so it's a little down here. Like

40:15

that, I'm like, so

40:17

much acting today is this. And

40:19

like, I'm like, pushing your

40:22

voice down. And like, you know,

40:24

it's like. This is great, by the

40:26

way. You've got to. What you're doing right now is what

40:28

we want. We're going to

40:30

rerecord. We're just going to have

40:32

you do whatever this character is. Thank you. We'd

40:34

like an hour of that. I actually do want

40:36

to do that. I really, really want to do

40:38

that character. But no one's giving it to us.

40:40

No one's speaking or singing

40:43

in their real voice anymore. No one's,

40:45

it's really, it's an epidemic. Yeah.

40:48

What do you think are people's favorite thing about you

40:50

and least favorite thing about you? Favorite

40:54

thing about me is probably

40:56

like, you know, good

41:01

times. My God. I'm funny. You know,

41:04

like, I think I like, like to

41:06

bring people together. I like to,

41:09

I'm a social person. I like to bring people together. I

41:13

think least favorite thing is probably this

41:15

exact thing we were talking about of

41:17

the kind of like romantic,

41:20

or romance or like. Presbyterian.

41:22

The Presbyterian thing in me.

41:25

That's like the sentimentality.

41:27

Yes. That

41:29

is both, that is in its

41:32

way, as I've learned over the years. It's like, it

41:35

is kind of coercive. Like that is what

41:37

people don't like about sentimentality. It's not just

41:39

a sentimentality itself. It's that it's like, you

41:42

know, it's like, feel this way with me. It's

41:45

like, you should be up here with me. And it's

41:47

like, and it's like people are like, oh, cause

41:49

I hate that. I hate when people do

41:51

that to me. That's why I

41:53

like was repulsed by like church. You're

41:56

making me realize in this very moment that

41:59

I am guilty. of that. And

42:01

that's okay. I think a lot of performers are. This

42:05

very rarely happens on the podcast. No,

42:09

I mean almost never. And

42:11

what I'll say is I love

42:14

the thing people love most about you and

42:16

I love the thing people love least about

42:18

you. Thank you. I appreciate it as your

42:20

friend. I mean, we don't see each other

42:22

all the time, but I feel close to

42:24

you. And I feel

42:27

like I appreciate both things about you. I've

42:29

been with you and I feel

42:32

like I've witnessed both things and

42:34

I think they're both wonderful. That's

42:36

very nice, Mike. I have

42:38

compassion for it because it's like, it

42:41

is basically like the question we all grapple

42:45

with, which is like, or choose not to

42:47

grapple with, choose like run away from, which

42:49

is like, is life meaningless? Or do

42:52

I create my own meaning or is it

42:54

happening to me? Like, you know, and that's,

42:56

I think sentimentality comes from a desire

42:59

to like, for things to be meaningful and to

43:01

not look at the void and, you know, To

43:04

format things into rituals, meaningful

43:07

symbols. Which can be so helpful for people,

43:09

you know? No, completely.

43:12

And also suffocating from those closest to

43:14

you. Oh my God. All

43:40

right. I'm going to work. I'm going to just tell

43:42

you a couple of bits I'm working on. And if

43:45

you have thoughts on or memories or anything, if it

43:47

strikes anything and also feel free to throw in any,

43:49

if you're working on anything, it's sort of half baked

43:51

right now, Tim. Oh my God, I wish. I wish.

43:55

Okay. I tell like a

43:57

long, elaborate story about my daughter going to birthday parties.

44:00

and how essentially like when your child is eight, you go

44:02

to birthday parties like 365 days a year. And

44:05

you're just like, she

44:08

has eight friends. There's some

44:10

kind of fraud going on. I

44:13

think some of these kids are claiming 20, 30

44:15

birthdays a year. And

44:17

they're just, all these kids are

44:20

just so excited. Everybody's

44:22

just so excited about being

44:24

alive, except me. And

44:27

I have to drive. And you really want the

44:29

driver to be excited about life. That's

44:34

the other half-baked thing that I took. I

44:36

took her to this birthday party at this place called Urban

44:39

Air, which is hell. And

44:41

I've gone before to Urban Air, and I was just like, I'm

44:43

not going in again. So Jenny went

44:45

in with Luna, and I circled the block. I

44:48

have a joke on my show right now, and I don't think he's ever gonna

44:50

work, but makes me laugh. Good parents

44:52

take their kids to birthday parties. Great parents

44:54

circle the block. To

44:57

always be ready. Yeah, yeah. Oh my God, that's

44:59

so good. Circle the block. It's like one of

45:01

those things that sometimes in my shows, I'll go

45:04

like, you know, you might come

45:06

see me in six months or a year. You

45:08

go, that's funnier, that's better. And a lot of

45:10

times I'll also be like, that joke will not

45:12

be in the show. But that's a perfect example.

45:15

The circle of blocking, just the metaphor

45:17

doesn't complete. I don't know. I

45:19

think it does have its own internal poetry. And

45:24

I'm always chasing after, as you know. Speaking

45:26

of which, when you were directing Jacqueline, what do

45:29

you think was the most helpful note you

45:32

would give consistently in that show? Because I love

45:34

that show so much. I think just like, I

45:37

mean, it was so, it was like

45:39

all her, obviously. Like directing is

45:42

a bold name for me,

45:44

for my title. But the

45:47

thing that I just think was always reminding

45:49

her to not forget, and this is just

45:51

such a basic kind of theater thing, is

45:53

to not forget that people aren't hearing this

45:56

for the first time. Because she is so,

46:00

she has such a brilliant mind

46:03

and her argument is, her

46:06

arguments, plural, are so dense and

46:08

intricate. And

46:14

she was very focused, obviously, on the clarity

46:16

of those arguments. And I was always like,

46:18

well, part of the clarity can just be

46:20

like, pretend like you're at dinner with me.

46:23

And just talk to me across the table and explain

46:25

it to me how you would explain at dinner. And

46:28

I would be like, dumb. And

46:32

so you would really slow it down and

46:35

you'd be checking in with me to see if I'm

46:37

getting it. So it was always like dinner, just like

46:39

keep it at dinner and

46:43

that'll help lock you in

46:45

to a kind of relationship with the audience.

46:47

I love that. That's great advice. I feel

46:49

like I've both given that

46:51

advice and received that advice from my parents. I

46:54

always had to hear it. I have to hear

46:56

it. It's one of those

46:58

things, no matter how many times you hear a piece of

47:00

advice, if it's as good as the advice you're saying right

47:02

now, and I actually would project

47:05

that out to anyone who's listening to this,

47:07

who's a comic or a solo performer. It's

47:09

like, remind yourself, every

47:11

show, they have not heard the words.

47:13

Yeah, yeah. They don't know the words.

47:15

Yeah. It's an entirely new concept.

47:18

No, I know, it's crazy. And it makes

47:20

it so much more fun. Yeah.

47:23

And I think there's like something, I think Jacqueline

47:25

and I relate, we both are very kind of

47:29

embarrassed by the fundamental

47:31

premise of comedy sometimes,

47:35

of the social contractors that you have to say

47:38

it as if

47:40

you're saying it for the first time, and your eyes

47:42

have to dart up to your memory, or you pull

47:44

words from even though you know what the word is.

47:47

You still have to perform, you're

47:49

kind of figuring it out. Yeah. And

47:53

there's some things, I think we both

47:55

are like, so like, ew, but

47:57

then it's like, well, then the other, then what, what are we doing?

48:00

without that, without that device of working

48:02

through it for the first time, you're

48:06

completely figured out and you're

48:08

a performance artist who's saying

48:11

words. It's so generous to

48:13

be, it's so much more

48:15

generous to pretend to be

48:18

conversational and intimate with an audience than it is

48:21

to do some sort of strange

48:23

thing where it's already figured out. Where

48:26

you're presenting your thesis. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

48:28

yeah, totally. I brought you here today

48:30

to convince you of one thing. Yeah.

48:35

And then this is the other one is, so Jenny

48:37

and I, for our daughter's sixth

48:39

birthday, we asked her, we go, what

48:41

would be like your favorite thing that we could

48:43

do for your birthday? And she

48:46

said, I want you and mom to dress up like clowns. That's

48:49

so sweet. So Jenny and I went to

48:51

a costume shop. We got

48:54

the full makeup, we got full outfits. We

48:56

woke her up on her birthday. She

48:58

said, happy birthday, she

49:00

started crying. And

49:04

I think she still thought she was in the dream. And

49:08

we were just like, no, we just said, no, it's us.

49:11

And then we're just like, we're so

49:13

sorry, what's wrong? She goes, when I

49:15

said you should dress up as clowns,

49:18

I meant that I would walk

49:20

you around town and people

49:23

would laugh at you. And

49:25

that's when I realized. Like sadistic little

49:27

girl. That's when I realized that she

49:29

wanted to be my manager.

49:33

She wanted to make 10% on top of 100%.

49:37

Well, this has to go in the show. I love this.

49:40

Jenny literally said the other day, cause she was

49:42

listening to the show, she goes like, it's almost

49:44

like the title of the show should have something

49:46

to do with clowns. Yeah. Cause

49:49

it's like, there's something metaphoric about

49:52

the way in which we

49:54

try to please the people who

49:56

we love. And in the

49:59

end, process for clowns.

50:01

Yeah. The

50:11

last thing we do is working out for a cause.

50:13

Is there an organization you like to donate to? I

50:15

will donate to them. I will link

50:17

to them in the show notes and encourage others to donate as

50:19

well. I would like

50:21

to choose. Why the voice? Why

50:24

the voice? Because

50:26

I just do want to let the

50:28

audience in on my search for the

50:31

actual name of this place. There was

50:33

a search. We took a

50:35

break to search the

50:40

National Nurses United,

50:44

the largest nurses union in the country.

50:47

We all in

50:49

2016 got very charity-pilled. It was very

50:51

like, here's the thing that you can donate to.

50:59

And I think giving to unions is

51:01

a smart way to make

51:03

sure your money is getting used directly. Awesome.

51:06

Yeah. Well, I

51:08

will contribute to National Nurses United. I will

51:10

link to them in the show notes. John

51:14

Early, I never

51:16

say this. I don't

51:18

think I've ever said this. I feel

51:20

like I have a lot of thinking to do. I

51:23

get a lot of thinking and reflecting. I'm honored.

51:25

It's a very deep conversation. Thank you so much

51:27

for being here. Thank you. And I urge people

51:29

to watch your special is one of a kind.

51:31

Thank you, Mike. That's

51:41

going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. I love

51:44

talking to that John Early. You

51:46

can check out his special Now More

51:48

Than Ever on Max. You can follow

51:50

John on Instagram at Bijonce.

51:54

Like Beyonce, except it's Bijonce. And

51:56

you can watch the full video

51:58

of that interview on my YouTube

52:00

channel at Mike Birbiglia. Check that out

52:03

and subscribe because we're gonna be posting

52:05

more and more videos there. Check

52:07

out birbigs.com to sign up for the

52:09

mailing list to be the first to

52:11

know about my upcoming tour dates. Our

52:13

producers of Working It Out are myself

52:15

along with Peter Salomon and Joseph Birbiglia,

52:17

associate producer Mabel Lewis, assistant producer Gary

52:19

Simon, sound mix by Kate Belinsky, special

52:21

thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for

52:24

their music, J-Hope Stein, and our daughter

52:26

Una who built the original radio fort

52:28

made of pillows. Thanks most of all

52:30

to you who are listening. If you enjoy the

52:32

show, rate us on Apple Podcasts. Tell your friends,

52:34

tell your enemies. You might tell your friend, and

52:37

you go, hey, you know how

52:39

you've been meaning to tell someone something? And then

52:43

you say, hey, there's this thing and I

52:45

know I've been putting this off. And they're

52:48

like, right, Working It Out. It's a podcast

52:50

where a comedian talks with comedian friends and

52:52

they work out jokes. And you go, yeah,

52:54

that was easy. Thanks for Working It Out,

52:56

everybody. See you next time. Bye.