We dig into Attachment Theory this week, specifically how Attachment Theory can tell us of the measurable impact of capitalism and capitalistic values on children, who end up being messy adults on Tinder. The way we instill rugged individualism in literal babies has lasting effects on our population deep into adulthood.

Poppin Off

Callie pops off about the Chris Evan nude and how he is being treated differently than most female celebrities with leaked nudes (although we’re happy he is generally being treated well). She also talks about how it’s important to give people their privacy during these times.

Joke

If you wear cowboy clothes…

Main Topic: Attachment Theory 101 + How it Ties to Capitalism

We had planned to talk about how capitalistic values have invaded the way we raise children when we listened to the Psychology in Seattle’s Deep Dive series on Attachment Theory (available to patrons only, link here) where Dr. Kirk Honda connects avoidant insecure attachment style to certain parenting behaviors only seen in the West. This information was the perfect pairing for what we wanted to talk about, and we had a lot of fun going through all of it on this week’s episode.

Attachment Theory:

Described as, “behaviors that make up an ‘attachment behavioral system’ that guides us in our patterns and habits of forming and maintaining relationships

Attachment Styles:

• Secure: learned to trust others, have a good sense of self, are comfortable seeking support and comfort
• Anxious: learned that they had to demand or seek attention and love from others, often through emotional manipulation
• Avoidant: learned that no one would take care of them and that they are on their own
• Disorganized: got confusing and conflicting messages as a child, grew up in chaos

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Transcript

Nichole [00:00:27] Hey, everybody.

Callie [00:00:29] Hey.

Nichole [00:00:32] I’m avoidant.

Callie [00:00:34] And I’m anxious.

Nichole [00:00:37] And today we’re bitching about…

Callie [00:00:40] Attachment styles and when this overly individualistic style is forced on young children, we create attachment injury.

Nichole [00:00:51] Yes. Yeah. So we’re doing our favorite thing, which is taking a thing and then using it to bitch about capitalism.

Callie [00:01:02] Yeah.

Nichole [00:01:04] Before we get into that, I think we’re going to talk about Chris Evans briefly and his nudey nudes.

Callie [00:01:11] Yeah. Yeah, so this is just gonna be a very short little pop top today. But I just thought it would be interesting to comment on the different dynamic of Chris Evans accidentally releasing his nudes and how people are responding to it versus what typically tends to happen with female celebrities whose nudes are usually stolen and released without their consent and the public’s view of them. So obviously, this is not to shame Chris Evans. It’s a mistake. Listen, it’s 2020. Who doesn’t have nudes in their phone? OK, that’s just the way it is. And shit happens. Sometimes you send someone a photo or someone’s scrolling and they see it and like, that’s just what it is.

Callie [00:02:04] So I do not blame him. I feel very bad for him. I have a lot of empathy because I know he supposedly has anxiety and he’s very upset that he accidentally showed his nude briefly on Instagram and that I’m sure how many people already were able to snag a photo of it and release it and share it. But it’s just interesting to me how many people are in, and I’m happy that so many people are saying, like, hey, like Chris Evans has anxiety and he’s such a good person. Like, please don’t share his nudes. Like, don’t go looking for them, like he has such a hard time with those. Don’t do it. But we don’t seem to get that same reaction for other celebrities, or at least not as much of, like it’s doesn’t appear to be like the dominant conversation when it happens. So I’m very happy to see everyone talking about that because it is an important conversation to have. Obviously, we want to be pro-consent at all times which means like, you don’t go invading someone’s privacy like that. It’s like really not OK. It’s not cool. But like, let’s just carry a little of that energy the next time. A different celebrities’ nudes are either stolen or leaked or, you know, what have you. Oh, you’re muted.

Nichole [00:03:34] Right. Well you could tell what I was saying. Just agreeing. Just general, overall agreement.

Callie [00:03:41] Yeah, yeah.

Nichole [00:03:43] And I just yeah, I just feel like there isn’t the, like, stigma attached in the same way, you know, and it just is like, yeah. Everyone’s got their bits in their pics on their phone, like…

Callie [00:03:59] Their bits in their pics?!

Nichole [00:04:02] Everyone’s got their bits in their pics!

Callie [00:04:04] It’s true. Or someone else’s bits in their pics. I mean, listen.

Nichole [00:04:08] Hey, it’s a trail mix in there. It’s just, all kinds of stuff going on. I mean, we’re in fuckin like lockdown, too. Like for crying out loud!

Callie [00:04:19] Yeah, right.

Nichole [00:04:21] But yeah. Yeah, I was glad you brought this up just for that general, kind of like, yeah let’s keep this energy going cause it applies no matter who, whose pics they are, right?

Callie [00:04:31] Yeah. Yeah.

Nichole [00:04:38] So in spirit of that, I’ve got a joke about clothes.

Callie [00:04:44] How impressive, because I only told you about this pop top like a few minutes before going live so.

Nichole [00:04:50] This is how we work. OK so, Callie, if you wear cowboy clothes, are you ranch dressing?

Callie [00:05:13] Oh my god.

Nichole [00:05:16] Also, this comment by VeganJerk, “People who scroll through your pics when you show them one.” Those are people… Banished. Like absolutely not. Absolutely not. You know that I’m a single queer person in my 30s. What are you doing? And honestly, like, even some of y’all married folks are still keeping it spicy. So, like, no matter what someone’s situation is, you just don’t do it. I’m always like, I hate when people hand me their phone and they’re like, oh, just scroll through.

Callie [00:05:51] Same!

Nichole [00:05:52] I’m like no.

Callie [00:05:52] Yeah.

Nichole [00:05:53] I’m like, there’s almost definitely something on here that you forgot about and it’s going to change the fabric of our relationship forever. And I just… Why? Why?

Callie [00:06:01] Yeah. The only time it’s OK is if someone’s like scroll 4 back. Like it’s the, like they give me a count. But even then I’m still like I’d just rather you not hand me your phone.

Nichole [00:06:16] Yeah.

Callie [00:06:17] Because neither one of us is trying to have me see something.

Nichole [00:06:19] Or I’ll like scroll to the picture and I’ll be like, go this way, you know, like you go to the last one. You’re like go this way.

Callie [00:06:25] Right, exactly.

Nichole [00:06:26] And even that’s just like a recipe for disaster.

Callie [00:06:30] Yeah. For real.

Nichole [00:06:32] Yeah. So, do we have people to thank this week?

Callie [00:06:37] We absolutely do.

Nichole [00:06:41] While you get that pulled up, I want to thank everyone for the support. As many of you know, our channel got deactivated again for the same bullshit reason of like, “scam’s, spam or commercially deceptive content”. Which is like, of all the things that we can get deactivated for is the funniest one. Because like, we’re clearly, like, not selling anything here.

Callie [00:07:07] Yeah. I have been racking my brain.

Nichole [00:07:09] So I just wanted to say, I know. I just wanted to say thank you to everyone. You all were very supportive on social media. People were like jumping forward with like hashtag ideas and like, you know, what do we do? And I’m like, well, give it a day cause they’ll probably just reactivate us. But it’s a massive problem across all social media platforms right now that I think is important for everyone to be aware of. That like, you know, we’re part of the Channel Zero Network, which is a network of anarchist media makers and tons of the other people in our network have had their Facebook pages deactivated. Facebook went through and deactivated anyone, any page that seemed to be related to Antifa or anarchism. So it’s like, the fascism is real. It is happening. Like this stuff, it’s annoying but it’s scary. Like, it is actually scary. And all of the social media platforms are doing things like this. They are making moves to find ways to just completely remove platforms that have radical leftist content.

Callie [00:08:18] Yeah. Dude, some of these comments. Kevli saying, “Commercially deceptive? Lmao it’s called Bitchy Shitshow, as clear as it gets.” Yeah our marketing is very upfront!

Nichole [00:08:28] Yeah, our branding could not be more… Like we want you to know what you’re in for.

Callie [00:08:37] Yeah. No, I mean it does… It really sucks. I mean, we spent like, we didn’t know if we were gonna be able to livestream today, and it’s just the threat of knowing that we could be working this hard to build something up and then any moment it could just be like gone gone, you know? It’s just really difficult to live with. And it’s unfamiliar to us because you don’t really have that problem with podcasting, you know? So the fear is real.

Nichole [00:09:00] Even with Apple. Like Apple polices podcasts more than anything else. But like even that isn’t really to that level. So, yeah. I mean, we, you know, we have, like we submitted to The Eyeball Zone for Thought Slime and I know he’s been on honeymoon. So it’s like, you know, just the thought that he could come back and then like check our channel and it looks like it’s deleted. Or, even worse, he could recommend us and the channel could be down when his video airs and we miss out on like thousands of people coming to check out our channel. It just…

Callie [00:09:42] Yeah.

Nichole [00:09:42] It sucks. And it’s like you have to get so big before you even have a chance at being, having any kind of protection against this.

Callie [00:09:50] And even then.

Nichole [00:09:53] Even then. But, you know, we would probably just never have those numbers and it… Yeah, it’s really frustrating. Yet again, I always bring up the Funky Academics talking about plans and how that just was, is such a framework that I think about now. But like this is one of those things where it’s like, how can you make plans on what you’re doing when you don’t even know if you’re gonna be able to, like, publish day-to-day? And I don’t wanna take up too much space with this because it happens to a lot of people. I just want to like highlight, keep your eyes open, that like across all social media platforms, this right-wing censorship is very real and very active right now.

Callie [00:10:33] Yeah. Yeah, unfortunately. And yet people are literally out here like spreading hate speech, actively threatening other groups of people and that doesn’t violate their standards.

Nichole [00:10:48] No, it’s totally fine.

Callie [00:10:52] Yeah. Well, and the last thing I’ll say is that I don’t know what caused our channel to be taken down, but I will not be threatening the mouse’s money anymore because that was the first thought I had, was if that was what actually caused it.

Nichole [00:11:12] Well, I’ve been wondering and some other people in Discord are wondering if, like it’s, you know, our hater is like, or someone’s trying to report us. And then YouTube looks at us and is like, oh, yeah, this would be nice to take down.

Callie [00:11:27] Yeah, I’m sure that’s it, but.

Nichole [00:11:29] I don’t think it was actual, like I wouldn’t worry. I don’t think it’s like the actual content. Do you know what I mean? Like we didn’t actually do something wrong. It’s that they’re just taking our channel down.

Callie [00:11:42] Yeah. Yeah. Because if… I know, I just saw that. Yeah, I mean because if it was you’d think that they would just then take that episode down. Because usually that’s what will happen, like a certain episode or something will get flagged. But it’s just like that doesn’t happen, we just, our channel will just be gone. So big yikes.

Nichole [00:12:05] Yeah.

Callie [00:12:07] Yeah. OK. So we’re not thanking YouTube, but we are thanking-

Nichole [00:12:16] Yeah.

Callie [00:12:17] Our new patrons or increased pledges. So Micah increased their pledge, Ian increased their pledge, and we have new patrons, Jacqueline, Becky, Kayley, and Stephanie increased their pledges, and new patrons, Julie and Jessica. So thank you so much for all of the new donors and all of the increased dollars. We deeply, deeply appreciate it.

Nichole [00:12:52] Yeah, very much so. Especially we announced on the after-party last week or on Thursday that I was going to start taking a salary and then we crunched the numbers and realized that I can’t really.

Callie [00:13:06] Yeah.

Nichole [00:13:07] So every bit helps. I’m still going to take a little bit, but it’s like a third of what we thought I would be able to. A lot of it right now is going towards catching up on transcripts, so we’ll have a bit more in a couple months when those are caught up on. But yeah. So yeah, when I saw the new pledges and the increased pledges come through as like aw, that’s nice.

Callie [00:13:31] Yeah. Yeah, it’s definitely appreciated.

Nichole [00:13:34] Especially knowing times are rough right now.

Callie [00:13:36] Yeah, yeah, for real.

Nichole [00:13:38] Yeah. I’m actually dealing with maybe potentially gonna be priced out of my housing and definitely freaking out about it. So I just really, I have at least two neighbors who are unemployed right now and they’re also freaking out. So we’re looking into ways to like organize and see what our rights are and what we can do. Yeah. But yeah, anyway, just it was, you know, just another of the constant reminders that, like, things are rough right now. And have always been for so many of us.

Callie [00:14:17] Mm hmm.

Nichole [00:14:17] Yeah. So moving on to attachment theory, I have a PowerPoint. This one I had to throw together very quickly so it’s not too fancy, but I did put a bunch of transition animations in there because I know y’all love it. But we, so we are going to introduce attachment theory today, and it’s something that will probably come up a lot in the work that we do going forward. And I know that we’ve brought it up on several occasions in the past. So this isn’t really an episode to like deeply dig into attachment theory. I always want to try to be responsible when it comes to psychology stuff. But this theory is pretty well researched and pretty like, commonly known versus something like, you know, personality disorders, which even among mental health professionals are not well understood at all. So I feel pretty comfortable that we can at least introduce the topic at a very high level.

Nichole [00:15:18] And then what was really interesting to me is that we were going to do an episode anyway about rugged individualism in how we apply that to children, like even babies. And then we ended up listening to, for anyone who’s heard about Psychology in Seattle, Dr Kirk Honda from that, it’s a podcast and it’s also a YouTube channel. He, for patrons, actually did like a very massive deep dive on attachment theory. He did like fifteen or eighteen hours on it through, you know, I think six different episodes. So I ended up listening to all of that and then sent it to Callie and to Marine and Mexie and everyone else, I’m like, hey, this is really interesting.

Nichole [00:16:09] But one thing that came out of it that was so interesting was that, you know, he did, he has a pretty good perspective on like Western culture. He’s half Japanese so he is, you know, Japanese American. So he kind of has this really nice knowledge of, like cultures that are not American and how things can differ. And he seems to have a pretty leftist perspective, I can’t quite get a read on how left he is. I don’t think he’s quite as far as we are. I don’t know that he would consider himself an anticapitalist, but he is very critical of capitalism and especially capitalist values. So that came up throughout the episodes and it just occurred to me that this was actually like a perfect pairing with this idea of how we try to apply capitalistic values to our babies, our literal babies, here in West. And so we decided to kind of mash it together. And then next week we’re actually going to talk about abuse and love. And I think, again, that this is kind of like a nice backing to have for that conversation as well. So without further ado… Where’s my mouse?

Callie [00:17:22] I’m loving the “A Bitchy Shitshow Presentation”. It feels so formal.

Nichole [00:17:30] This is very profesh.

Callie [00:17:32] Okay.

Nichole [00:17:35] Alright. So attachment theory was first described by John Bowlby in the 1950s. It’s been, the theory has been worked on by other people since then. And like I said, it’s actually been very well researched. It’s described as behaviors that make up an attachment behavioral system which guides us in our patterns and habits of forming and maintaining relationships. So it’s a very relational framework. It’s really about how we engage with other people and our relationships. It was defined, the categories were defined by watching infants’ behavior when placed in an unfamiliar situation and then separated from parents. And then they categorized that behavior into four separate buckets, which formed the attachment styles that we’ll talk about today.

Nichole [00:18:30] And just very good to note that this describes behavior versus personality. So this is a behavior within a relational context. This is not saying anything about a certain person’s personality. And as with many things, it’s pretty much a spectrum. So you’ll find yourself probably relating to all four categories even, at least the top three. But you’ll have one that’s really like your guiding formative category, and that’s really what’s going to drive your behavior with other people for the most part. This also is important to note that this is not a personality disorder. So that’s a different category. There could be overlap there that can explain someone’s behavior, but this really isn’t about personality disorders or mental illness or anything like this. This is literally how you formed attachments as a baby and then how those drive your behavior as a child and then as an adult.

Nichole [00:19:38] And these can change over time, positively or negatively, through therapy or tragedy or formative events in your life. So you can go from having one attachment style, and then through having healthy relationships or therapy, move more towards another. You also could have like a healthy attachment style and then lose a parent or get into an abusive relationship or have something like that happen, maybe have a stalker or something that really like deeply, you know, scares you and kind of rocks you to your core, and then that can alter your behavior from there out. So it’s good to know that these are pretty, they’re very formative and they’re very powerful in your behavior, but they also are malleable. They’re not something that is just this is who you are and that’s it forever. So it’s good to know that because if you wanted to work towards a healthier attachment style, you can. And it’s also good to know that if you go through something and then you realize you’re behaving differently than you did before, this could be an explanation for it, and again, is something that you could, over time, heal from.

Nichole [00:20:50] So the styles: the first one is secure. As a child, secure people learn to trust others and they seek comfort and support. So as a baby, you learn that if you have a need, someone’s going to show up and take care of that need for you. So you feel very comfortable in trusting other people and that, like, help will show up in your relationships. Secure attachment styles are the gold standard. They’re the good one, the one that you want to be.

Callie [00:21:21] Gold standard.

Nichole [00:21:23] Yeah. They’re the chef kiss of attachment styles. So the reason for this is because secure people are more likely to be satisfied with their relationships. They feel secure. They generally trust other people. They’re not naive or anything like that, but they just are kind of like unless you give me a good reason to not trust you, I’m going to trust you. You know, and if you do give me a good reason to not trust you, then I won’t trust you. These are people who can leave a bad relationship usually pretty easily, not get too bogged down by it. They’re people who tend to have really good boundaries and maybe would cut a relationship off when they see red flags versus run towards them like a lot of the rest of us do.

Nichole [00:22:09] They tend to feel very secure and connected to their partners without needing to be together all the time or have constant positive reinforcement. So they don’t need a ton of like compliments, affirmations of commitment, or statements of devotion to feel secure. They just can see the relationship for what it is and feel pretty secure in what it is. Their relationships are likely to be honest, supportive, independent in a healthy way, balanced, relatively easy, and have good conflict resolution and deep emotional connection. So I think secure could be easy to look at them and think like, oh, they’re just like fine, and it’s kind of superficial. That’s something I kind of used to think. But they actually do have deep emotional connection. They’re just not, you know, there’s just not a lot of drama. Because if something comes up, they tend to resolve it, and then they’re good.

Nichole [00:23:06] As children, this means they are able to relate positively to others and were able to see other’s perspectives. So they’re pretty empathetic, they have pretty good, you know, easy relationships with other people. And they just don’t seem to get to, like, tied down when something happens. It doesn’t tend to stress them out for a really long time. They’re able to, like, get resolution, which I think insecure attachment styles, resolution is probably the thing that, like, we don’t seem to get very easily or very well.

Nichole [00:23:41] So then we have anxious. This is, I’m going to refer to these as anxious and avoidant, but they have many other names out there in the wider world. And if you do listen to the Psychology in Seattle series, he called, Dr. Kirk calls this one preoccupied. So I think anxious and avoidant are just more intuitive. But he explains, and I do understand his explanation for preferring the term preoccupied. So an anxious person learned when they were a child that they had to demand or seek love from a parent. And they had the deep feeling of like wanting to have love and not getting it or not getting enough, especially without creating some kind of scene to like, get attention. So anxious people tend to be desperate for love and affection. They’re anxious that it will go away even when they have it. So even if they find someone who likes them or loves them and they’re in a relationship of any kind, they’re just constantly concerned that that relationship is going to go away.

Nichole [00:24:47] They often need frequent reassurance from a partner or loved ones. And though they want love and security more than anything, they often tend to push partners away with their behavior. An interesting thing that came up listening to the podcast is Dr. Kirk said the anxious people are actually more prone to cheating, which is interesting because a lot of times they might be punishing their partner for not paying enough attention to them or they just might be seeking that validation that there’s people who will love them. You know, if they’re not feeling like they’re getting enough validation from their partner, whether their partner is actually providing it or not is a different story. But if they’re not feeling that validation, then they may go seek it in the arms of another, as they say. They often are seen as clingy, demanding, needy, jealous, or easily upset. I’m not saying these words to be offensive. It’s just in relationships, these are kind of key words to know, like what category you’re dealing with.

Nichole [00:25:50] As children, they tend to lack self-confidence and may display exaggerated emotions to get attention. So these are the kids that you might see throwing this like extremely dramatic temper tantrum that like stops the second they get attention. And it’s because, it’s, you know, comes from a sad place, actually. It’s that they’ve learned that that’s what they have to do in order to get, like, love or validation. And they can be people who will seek attention through negative interaction just to get attention. Like the attention is even more important than the nature of the attention itself. Dr. Kirk had a great example for this one. He said it would be like a kid who falls down and they hurt their knee a little bit, but it’s really not a big deal. But then they, like, learn to just like, you know, wail and scream and act like, you know, their leg has fallen off to try to get attention, and that’s that kind of kid. So interestingly, as a child, they may actually avoid their peers leading to social isolation. These are kids that tend to be kind of afraid of other kids and tend to cling to their parents or their caregivers quite a bit.

Nichole [00:27:09] Avoidance. So avoidance, also sometimes called on the internet dismissive types, learned as children that help was not coming and so they learned to be self-sufficient. As adults, they generally tend to keep their distance from others. This may be emotionally if not physically. So it may not be that they actually don’t have friends or they actually don’t hang around other people, but they may have… This is the type of person where you sense that there is a wall and you may not really know them and they don’t seem to be very forthcoming with any kind of like real information, even if they’re hanging out a lot. They believe that they don’t need human connection to survive or thrive so they insist on maintaining independence at all costs. They’re able to, and prone to, sever relationships fairly easily compared to other people. So if they feel like they’ve been crossed… I mean, this could also just be called the Scorpio style, but anyway. They, you know, if they feel like they’ve been crossed and they feel that they can’t trust someone, which, you know, they feel pretty easily, these are the people who could be like, oh, that person’s out of my life now and, you know, like, I don’t care. You know, it’s a lot of like, I’m not emotionally impacted by anything that happens around me.

Nichole [00:28:33] Many avoidant people are known to play games in relationships, especially in dating, because deep down, they actually do crave closeness. Just, you know, we’re human, we’re all social creatures. They do actually want closeness and they do actually wish that they could depend on someone, but they always anticipate that others will fail them. So in a lot of ways, this can become that push-pull that a lot of people experience while dating where someone will start acting like you’re in a relationship, but then keep telling you that you’re not in a relationship. And then, you know, just may ghost you out of nowhere and then pop up again. You’re like, what is going on here? That can be your avoidant people. So, you know, they may get comfortable with someone, but then they’re always terrified of actually becoming dependent or attached. So those mile markers in a relationship where it reminds them that like, oh, shit, we’re actually getting close and I’m actually like, depending on this person and like wanting things with this person, then they may just like cut that off because it scares them.

Nichole [00:29:38] They can be seen as cold, aloof, heartless, confusing, a loner, or immature in that they like won’t settle down. Now that, you know, has a lot of social connotations to it that we could read into, but that is the perception that a lot of people have of them, is these are the people who, you know, even in their thirties and forties, are still on Tinder. They tend to use sex as a way to feel close to people and have like, but like have very unemotional, you know, sex with strangers and try to get their fix for human connection in that way. So they can be seen by other people as like not, like people who know them well and know that they’re avoiding emotional attachment. So there’s some validity in that, but then also, you know, people just judge. Like there’s nothing wrong with not settling down. But that’s something that they, you know, a stigma that they can carry.

Nichole [00:30:40] As children, avoidant people may show aggression or anti-social behavior, especially like lying, maybe bullying, things like that, and have trouble forming relationships and/or may distance themselves from others to reduce stress. So they may have an aggressive way of interacting with other children, or they may just kind of opt-out of interacting with other children altogether. It is different than the way that anxious people may isolate as children. They kind of isolate out of a general fear and a wanting to be close to their caretaker, whereas avoidant people are just kind of like, I don’t really get this, I don’t need any of this. It still comes from a place of anxiety for both of them, which is why Dr. Kirk prefers preoccupied instead of anxious, because he’s like avoidant people are actually anxious, too, and they actually want the same connections. It’s just their behavior around it manifests in basically the opposite way. So I do get that. But I feel like anxious people display anxiety, whereas avoidant people, their anxiety manifests as avoidant behavior, which is why I like those labels, just as more intuitive.

Nichole [00:31:57] And then the last one, woo! Is disorganized. This is also called many other things, one of them is ambivalent. So Disorganized got very conflicting and confusing messages as a child. They may have been neglected but then also smothered. You know, this is typically where we’re getting into, like, abuse. With the other styles, it’s good to understand that you can become insecure. So you can become either anxious or avoidant without your parents having abused you in any way. A lot of, and this is what’s going to tap us into, really what is the crux of today’s topic.

Nichole [00:32:39] But you, for instance, maybe had a single parent who had to work a lot. So maybe you had to take care of yourself and you just learned that your mom was not around, your dad was not around, whoever, your caretaker. Maybe you had to grow up too fast because of that. But maybe your parent or parents were very loving. And when they were around, you know, they were great parents, but they just weren’t able to be around a lot. So maybe you develop either anxious or avoidant style because of that. You could come from a really big family where each kid, you know, if you have 10 kids, each kid just really can’t get the full level of attention that they may have wanted during formative years. So maybe you have an insecure attachment from that. Maybe one of your parents dies, you know? Or both of your parents dies and that can impact you as well. So there’s a lot of ways that kids can develop insecure attachment styles without the parents really having done anything wrong. But it could just be unfortunate circumstances.

Nichole [00:33:42] I think with disorganized, I don’t want to say for sure that you couldn’t develop disorganized from unfortunate circumstances. But I do think that with this to me, it reads a little bit more like, there was some actual maybe emotional abuse going on, or maybe the parents had mental health issues or addiction or something that really led to a chaotic upbringing. Addiction, for instance, could definitely present in conflicting and confusing messages for the kid where you have a parent, you know, who’s sober and acting one way, and then is under the influence and acting a completely different way and that just leads to a lot of chaos.

Callie [00:34:21] And instability in a really, really dangerous way.

Nichole [00:34:25] Yes. Yes, absolutely. So with disorganized people as adults, they have no predictable pattern of behavior and they have a chaotic response. It’s very important to understand that they’re not a mix of the two. They’re not anxious and avoidant, that’s a different thing. Because, again, we’re all on a spectrum so it’s possible that you could kind of have equal parts. But that still has a bit of predictability and a bit of logic to it. Whereas with disorganized styles, the response is not logical, even in the sense of like an attachment style. Someone who’s anxious, it may not be logical to the person that they’re reacting to why they’re reacting that way, but if you understand their attachment style then it totally makes sense. With a disorganized person it doesn’t. It’s just literally like random, unpredictable responses to things.

Callie [00:35:19] Yeah.

Nichole [00:35:20] Do you remember his example for this one? I was racking my brain, I could not remember. And I was like, I can’t go back through all the hours of content. Think on it, let me know if you remember it.

Callie [00:35:32] I don’t. I do remember him saying, though, like you just said, it’s not, this isn’t just a mix of the two insecure attachment styles. That this is like on its own, its own thing. And it’s also very extreme. So just because someone has like, maybe some unpredictability as far as their reactions or behaviors, that like this is like always basically extreme reactions to things. It’s not just kind of relating to both. So, and I think that’s important to know because a lot of people I think online use it as kind of just a “Oh, I’m both so I’m like disorganized.” It’s like, no, no. Like, these are the people that tend to actually have, like, personality disorders and tend to, like, really be suffering greatly. So, yeah. I’ll try to think on the example because I do remember him talking about it a bit. I just, it was a lot of hours of content.

Nichole [00:36:27] I know, there was a lot of hours, I didn’t remember. So disorganized people try to avoid their feelings completely because they get very overwhelmed by them. They may have unpredictable or abrupt mood swings. They have a lot of difficulty forming and maintaining healthy, meaningful relationships and they can be seen in relationships as chaotic, unpredictable, unknowable, sometimes even scary. Because, again, a lot of their behavior comes out of, nobody could make sense of it just to, like, understand it. So you become very unpredictable and very volatile to people around you which, again, intercedes on you forming any kind of healthy relationship, sadly, that might actually help you.

Nichole [00:37:19] As children, disorganize types are disruptive, may have had behavioral issues, they see others as… There’s a lot of typos in here, I apologize. They see others as threats rather than sources of support, and they may switch between social withdrawal and defensively aggressive behavior. So it’s, you know, all three types basically, all three insecure types tend to kind of avoid other people as children, other children when they’re children. But they do it through different modes and it’s coming from different places. But we can see that, like even as children, we already start having issues with relationships with other people and that carries through to adulthood. And when we’re children, we tend to learn, right, it’s kind of reconfirming these primitive beliefs that we have in our head that were instilled as infants. And then it’s going to be interpreted by our now more mature brains as things like, if I’m avoidant it’s like, see? Like people always let you down. Or, you know, if I’m anxious, like, see? Like I knew that that person was going to leave and then they did. You know, you start interpreting everything happening to you as confirmation of this core belief that you have. And it gets fuckin wedged in there. And messes with your life.

Callie [00:38:49] I think now is a good time, because I’ve been seeing a lot of comments that are like, I feel very attacked right now. And like, I definitely felt that way too, listening to this series the first time and really learning about attachment styles. So I think it’s a good time-

Nichole [00:39:04] That’s a very anxious response, by the way. Just saying! See? Behavior? You know, this is how we learn.

Callie [00:39:14] But I also think it’s important to note, and I want to try to convey, the podcast did a really great job of conveying that, like our society in general, and this is largely what we’re gonna be talking about today, like creates insecure attachment styles. And then we also want to, like, villainize them. Right, like, we have this, like, deep kind of loathing for people that come off as like clingy or codependent. And to a certain extent, to avoidant people, too, although definitely like the kind of rugged individualistic like, oh, you can be tough on your own, is not quite as despised, but can be in certain circumstances.

Callie [00:40:00] But what’s really important to remember with all this is that your attachment style is nothing that like you developed out of nowhere. Right, it comes out of like deep attachment injury, either when you were a kid or throughout your childhood or your adulthood. And it’s like a deeply painful thing and it’s not something that people can control. So we should always remember, for ourselves first and foremost, but definitely for others, like to have some empathy for people in having these behaviors. It doesn’t mean we can’t still, like, try to work on ourselves and work towards a more secure attachment style or try to, like, set boundaries to have healthier engagement. But it’s like it’s just important to note like to not try to, like, shame ourselves or look at these things as like bad.

Callie [00:40:51] Because it’s sad that, like, you know, 50 percent or maybe a little bit less of people have an insecure attachment style. And they’re walking around like deeply injured. Like they’re in pain, you know, both avoidant and anxious. They want secure connection, everyone does. So I just, that was something I really appreciated about the podcast series is he kept talking about like, oh, I know it’s really easy to look at someone who like is quote-unquote clingy and be like, uck, you know, just so annoying. But it’s like, but it’s actually like really sad. Like it’s something to be really empathetic to. And same thing with people who don’t really let themselves be fully seen in a relationship because they’re worried that, like, once they let their guard down, they’re going to be hurt again. Like, that’s a, that’s something to, like, empathize with, not try to shame, so yeah.

Nichole [00:41:45] Yeah. We had a really good question from Mohera, does anyone, or comment. “Does anyone feel like this stuff manifests in being a fixer upper? Like being the type of person that wants to “fix” someone, especially romantic partners?” And I would say definitely. And I would also add that, cause Madison also said, you know, I think especially for anxious folks, it’s probably easy to be in a gaslighting type situation. What… I agree, but what I think is important to understand is that any insecure type could. I think we look at the anxious type and say, oh, that must be like the person who has less power in the relationship, and see them as the victim type. But a lot of anxious people that I’ve been involved with actually have the power in the relationship. Because they are the ones that…

Nichole [00:42:46] Like my, I think my abusive boyfriend that I dated for seven years right out of high school was like extreme anxious type. And he controlled me by always needing reinforcement of our relationship. And there was always ways that I needed to prove to him that I loved him. And he was very insecure and very jealous all the time, which was very effective in controlling my behavior because I was trying, thinking I could get him to, didn’t have the language for it then, but thinking that, like, I could create a secure relationship for him, and then he would become more secure. But it never happened.

Nichole [00:43:30] And the more, and this can be typical of anxious types, is that the more that you confirm the bad behavior, the more they’ll amp up the bad behavior. Because you think, oh, if I just let, if I just, like, meet this person where they’re at and make them feel secure, then they won’t need to do this next time. But unfortunately, if you have someone who’s very anxious and not working with someone to work through that anxiety, then they just learn that, oh, well, if I can get their attention by at least doing this much and if I need to do more than I will. And this can get to the point of, like, you know, stalking behavior and stuff like that. And again, this could be where it’s in conjunction with other maybe mental health issues, this is just behavior. But that’s where it can be very extreme.

Nichole [00:44:21] So I just want to point that out because I think for avoidant, it’s obvious, right? Like, we’ve all dated someone that we’re, like, chasing after and they’re hot and cold. And we’re like, you know, and you just think like, oh, if I can just be cool, like be the cool girl or whatever, like they’ll come around or if I can just prove myself to them and like, open them up, then they’ll come around. And that’s definitely something that happens very commonly. But anxious people can also actually be the ones driving the relationship as well.

Nichole [00:44:48] And you might have a partner that truly loves them, but is like you’re literally pushing me out with your behavior. And that’s what my ex did. I still love him very much. And in a lot of ways, he was like the best person I dated. But his behavior, you know, again, I think he probably had other issues as well, but it just got to the point where, like, I couldn’t stay with him because it was so bad. So I think I’m just always concerned with people thinking they’re in a role in a relationship and then being susceptible to abuse because they are not understanding the power dynamics, which is why I wanted to point that out. But yeah, certainly you can have an anxious person who wants to fix someone because they think that will make them feel, like that person is going to stay with them forever.

Nichole [00:45:42] But honestly, as an avoidant person, I’ve actually fallen into the same trap because I am so convinced that love won’t exist, that love will go away. That part of my mythology in my brain is that if I help someone, then that’s the love I could count on because that’s a love I earned and it’s going to last, right? And I’ve realized it’s also a way for me to kind of always know that the relationship is going to end because I’m with someone who is not healthy, and that the relationship itself is not healthy. So it’s also sort of like I never quite let my guard down, but I’m able to perform in a way where I’m like performing out of love without actually like, being vulnerable in a lot of ways. Because if the relationship’s all about the other person, then it’s not about you, right? So in a way, you’re not being vulnerable. But on the surface, you’re expending a ton of emotional energy and you’re very dedicated to this other person. So it’s like this very unhealthy way of getting to be in something intense that feels like love without it actually being the scary reality of like a real healthy relationship.

Callie [00:46:58] Yeah, yeah. We also got a question by Madison about, is this, you know, a gendered thing in some ways? And anyone can have any of the attachment styles, it’s not just tied to gender. But there does seem to be, based on the way we socialize people, especially in this country, right, like how we socialize young girls and young boys. There does tend to seem to be that like boys are more in the avoidant category. Girls tend to more be in that anxious category. Because, you know, our view of like masculinity and you need to be tough and you need to be okay, like on your own. And so their attachment, their behaviors end up kind of portraying attachment styles. That would be interesting to see if we didn’t kind of have this like, socialization, where people would fall. It’d probably be a lot more even. But yeah, we do tend to see. But that doesn’t mean that there isn’t, you know, people who are of the different genders falling into the different insecure attachment categories.

Nichole [00:48:10] Yeah. And it all ties back to how you’re treated as a child, which again, in the West, well globally, we all treat different genders differently as children. You know, for the most part, like across the board. So, yeah, if there’s an unhealthy attachment, an insecure attachment style, then that’s going to manifest in how that kid was treated. But there’s no set, you know, I was treated as a kid in a way that would be seen as traditionally more male, in that I was always told to toughen up and to like, you know, take care of myself and not cry and stuff like that. Which traditionally is more how like people assigned male at birth are treated. And I ended up in the avoidant category. Look at that. So, yeah, I do think there’s a correlation, but it’s not because the biology of the brains are different. It’s just the social conditioning that tends to go into it.

Nichole [00:49:07] So, I was going to bring up something else but you brought up something… Maybe it’ll come back to me. So I think that kind of segues us nicely into what had initially inspired this episode, which was we were talking to a good friend, sending voice notes back and forth about different things. And this friend brought up, you know, some behavior they had when they were a child, where they were very, very scared to be apart from their parents and how their parents were good about it but also, you know, were kind of, like made fun of them a bit for being clingy and needy. And then Callie had her own stories about that. And then I was reflecting on, you know, my experiences as a small child. And we kind of came around to, through the two of them mostly like relating to each other in these stories, kind of came around to this idea of realizing like how much we apply rugged individualism even to like literal infants. And how, you know, and wondering like how does that impact us as adults? And then attachment theory came along and basically answered that question.

Nichole [00:50:24] So one of the things that Dr. Kirk talked about on his episodes was that the avoidant attachment style is almost unique to the West. If you look at like populations of Asian countries, they essentially don’t have that and they tend to have a higher percentage of secure people, although they do still have a significant percentage of anxious people. But simply the way that we raise our kids does change these attachment styles in a measurable way. He also talked about how we’ve seen insecure attachment styles increase over time. I think particularly since about the 70s, which is, as we’ve talked about in the United States, was a fuckin landmark decade for us because that’s when segregation ended. So that’s when, you know, wages started to stagnate. Then shortly after we started having mass incarceration.

Callie [00:51:25] The war on drugs.

Nichole [00:51:25] And the war on drugs and the AIDS crisis and all kinds of stuff that happened to really, I mean, we had, the 80s was like our decade of greed and decadence in this country. And like capitalism, you know, capitalist values were at their height of being just like fetishized in this country before neo-liberalism, like, really had to do some PR around those and make it more subtle. And, you know, I think that that’s significant. I think that it’s significant that we have a significant population in this country, in a way that doesn’t exist in other countries, of people who have grown up realizing they can’t trust anyone, they can’t count on anyone, that they’re the only person they have and that they seek, as much as possible, to not form true emotional attachments to other people.

Callie [00:52:23] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I still, like my mind is blown every time I think back on him talking about, like, how the avoidant attachment style, like basically is nonexistent in a lot of other countries. So attachment style, you know, the person who created it was in the U.S. and when other researchers, like other doctors around the world, started to like perform these attachment style tests with babies, they were like, there was all of this confusion over they must not be performing the tests right. There must be cultural things that they’re doing that are skewing the results. Because they were getting like no results of people being avoidant and that just like flummoxed people. Like they couldn’t understand what was going on. But when you look at our country and the way we treat people, the way we look at, you know, everything has to do with this bootstrap mentality, right? Like everyone expected to take care of themselves.

Callie [00:53:28] We even have to this day, so attachment styles have been around now since like the 1950s. Right, now granted, they took a long time for people to take that field seriously. But even still to this day, the fact that so many people haven’t heard of attachment styles, and are actively trying to teach parents, like, let your baby cry it out because that they need to learn how to self soothe. And it’s like that is absolutely incorrect with everything we know about attachment styles. Like it is so critically important when a child is young, when a baby is crying, they need… Like to really develop a secure attachment style, they need to feel that their parent is attuned to their needs. Right, they are paying attention to them, they care what is wrong with them, and they want to soothe them and make them better.

Callie [00:54:26] And the fact that, what, 20 so percent of adults, at least, in this country are avoidant. 20 percent. I mean, think about that, that’s a lot of fucking people. Because they’re not being attuned to. Because everything in our society tells people that, like, you should be fine on your own. You don’t need to be able to count on anyone. And also, we’re going to like, dangle this threat of, like starvation or homelessness over your head if you’re not just, like, tough enough to deal with life. Like that is fucking-

Nichole [00:55:01] And you’re a burden if you need help. That’s very-

Callie [00:55:03] Yes! Yeah. Yeah. And that like we’re gunna-

Nichole [00:55:08] That made a huge impact on me.

Callie [00:55:10] Exactly.

Nichole [00:55:10] You know, that idea that like if I need help I’m a fucking burden. It’s like well I better never need help then.

Callie [00:55:16] Exactly.

Nichole [00:55:16] Cause I don’t want to be.

Callie [00:55:17] Yeah. I mean even the fact that we have such a, and Nichole I’m glad you brought up that like, anxious people aren’t, like we can’t always just look at them as like oh they’re like the victim in situations. Like their behavior can be very manipulative, unfortunately. And again, it doesn’t come out of like a maliciousness. It just comes out of a lot of times of what they learned as a kid. But nevertheless, that’s what can happen. But still, the fact that, like, we demonize people basically wanting attachment. Like we look at them as like gross. Like, oh, you’re an adult who, like, wants a relationship or like needs love? Like ew. Like what the fuck?! Like that’s our society and so no wonder we have this huge group of people that are avoidant or have avoidant behaviors, and why we’re also like fucking messed up. You know, no wonder we feel like we can’t, we struggle to have conversations about like socialist values, about how everyone should be taking care of when everything we’re taught from like babies forward is that like, you shouldn’t need anyone else. A fucking baby who can’t do anything for themselves, needs to learn how to self soothe? What?

Nichole [00:56:35] Yeah. Yeah, and I’m glad that you brought it up because I did think that was a really important point that he made, is that when it comes to parenting, it’s not about just being there, and it’s not about just, it’s not about like throwing a bunch compliments at the kid or just holding them whenever they cry. It really is about the child, the parent having an intuitive sense of what the kid needs and understanding and meeting those needs. He’s like, yeah, sure, you can tell your kid they’re like the smartest kid the world. But that’s not really going to do anything for them. But if you can actually like, understand. Like, maybe your kid is grieving and you can find a way to help your kid talk about that grief and label it and let them know that you’re like their to hear their thoughts. Or you’re there if they just need a hug. You know, like, that’s the kind of thing. And, you know, you could have a baby who’s crying or a kid who’s crying a lot. But if the parent, even if they’re picking them up, but if the parent’s like I don’t know why you’re fucking crying. I don’t know what to do. Like, that is not necessarily going to meet that child’s needs.

Callie [00:57:53] Yeah.

Nichole [00:57:53] Right, if you have that contentious relationship or the parent’s stressed out and is like I literally don’t know why you’re crying, I don’t know what’s happening. So I thought that that was a really nuanced and like very important point that came through. Because you can have a helicopter parent and you would be like, oh, well, that kid must be secure, right? Because their parent’s, like, always around. But it’s like, no, that parent can actually make the kid either anxious or avoid it because they’re not actually meeting the kid’s needs. They’re meeting their own needs to have control over the child. Or to you know, they’re probably, I think a lot of helicopter parents are very anxious, right? So, like, they’re dumping their anxiety on the kid. That’s not anything to do with the kid or their needs. Or you might see a kid who’s spoiled and think that they must be secure, but they’re not because their actual needs are not being met necessarily by the parents. They’re just being told they’re so great all the time, but they’re not being taught how to actually, like, regulate their emotions. They’re not being taught that the relationships in their life are solid and will always be there. That’s very different than telling your kid they’re just like the best.

Callie [00:58:58] Such a good point. Yeah, he used the word attunement like, a lot throughout the entire series because that’s what, Dr. Kirk right? Kirk is his name?

Nichole [00:59:12] Mm hmm.

Callie [00:59:12] Yeah, thought so. But that’s what Dr. Kirk was using a lot and I think that’s really important. And you bring up like the distinction I think really well. It’s not just about like hovering over your child or your people in your life all the time and being kind of like clinging to them always. It’s about like parents being attuned to their child’s needs. Like not just like, oh, you’re crying and I don’t know what’s wrong with you and I’m just going to like, you know, pick you up or I’m gonna shove a pacifier in your mouth to get you to shut up. It’s about like trying to learn to be aware of, like, what your baby actually needs and attuning to those needs, and that’s what creates secure attachment. And that’s why, like other cultures, it’s not that they’re all secure either. It’s just that they don’t tend to have this like rugged, individualistic view of like, oh, like we need to all learn how to be like fine on our own. But there is definitely still like can be some hovering or, you know, overly, I can’t think of the word I want to use and I don’t want to say anything like offensive, but that’s why we see other cultures, like they definitely still have anxious attachment because there tend to be, you know, still some insecure bonds, but just not the avoidant one.

Callie [01:00:30] So and the fact that these attachment styles have been around now for so long and we still like, they haven’t really trickled into our public policy. They haven’t really trickled into, like parenting in a big enough way. I mean, if you really think about it, your attachment style is really important to like, who you are and how you behave. And yet it’s still this like… I mean, I’m a person in my early thirties who, like it’s only recently that I’m learning this stuff. And I knew attachment styles was a thing, but I’m just kind of surprised that it’s not like, like this shit should be everywhere. We should be like wallpapering buildings with like attachment style information. It would solve so many issues, you know? Think about like drug addictions and anti-social behavior, like what we consider crime. Like think if we looked at that through an attachment style lens, right, and we solved…

Callie [01:01:31] Which I thought was so interesting about attachment style. It feels like this is something we talk about on this show so often, but we just weren’t talking about it in conjunction with attachment styles. Like we were kind of doing it, but in a roundabout way. Right, that everyone should have their needs met. And if they were, we would have a lot less of these problems that capitalism creates. Well that relates to attachment style. You know, if people feel like their needs aren’t going to be met, either by their families or by society at large, you’re going to get insecure attachment behavior.

Nichole [01:02:08] Yeah. Yeah, and something else he brought up that’s sort of connected is that it doesn’t really matter who your caretaker is. So it’s OK, like, which is, you know, positive in the sense that, like, I see some people commenting about, you know, being raised by a community versus like this individualistic approach we have in the US of like, you’re the parent. And a lot of times it’s you’re the mom, right, and you’re kind of on your own. So he said, yeah, like if you have any kind of caregiver around you who can make you feel this way, then for the child, for the baby. It doesn’t really matter if it’s their biological parent or not. Which is great because that means, you know, kids who are adopted, kids whose parents who pass away, kids with single parents or parents who are very busy and need, you know, aunts and uncles and other people to, other relatives or friends to step in. Like that can still give a kid a very secure upbringing where they grow up to feel safe and trusting of other people. So that’s very important.

Nichole [01:03:20] And then I saw some people bringing up, you know, neurodivergence or mental health issues like anxiety. And he was saying a lot in there that this really is based on neurotypical children. The tests that they do with infants doesn’t apply to a neuroatypical, particularly autistic, baby because we tend to act differently, right? I know for me, a lot of my autistic traits also present very avoidant. I just always was very off on my own. You know, a lot of times we have sensory issues, so we want to be somewhere quiet and we want to kind of be by ourself. And we tend to avoid other kids and things like that. So, I also think ADHD, you know, could probably present a lot as anxious, possibly because a lot of ADHD kids like, want a lot of attention and, you know, have a lot of energy around that.

Nichole [01:04:25] So it is good to understand it’s a little difficult to piece them apart. And I also saw someone commenting that like that can also increase what your needs are as a child, as a baby, or as a small child versus a neurotypical person. And so your parents could be, maybe they were able to be a secure attachment for a sibling, but not for you because they didn’t quite understand that your needs were different because your neuroatypical. So it’s a complex relationship there, but it does factor in and does kind of hamper the measurements and the, I guess you don’t really get diagnosed with an attachment style, but it could, you know, kind of complicate that for you.

Nichole [01:05:16] Because I do think about that a lot, too. Like, I do wonder if me being autistic was also part of like, I didn’t ever feel like anyone understood me. I always felt very different. And I could tell my mom was kind of like weirded out by me and didn’t really know what I needed. And I think that that, even before we then, because we were somewhat financially secure until I was about six and then we like became very poor for a very long time. So even before the time, like when she was still a stay at home mom for the most part, even though they still left me to take care of my infant sister but anyway. But even before, you know, we really got into where my parents both were working jobs, and like I had to be home taking care of the kids and like cooking dinner and stuff. Like even before we got there, I do think there was a sense for me, even as an infant, that, like my parents didn’t get me. You know, and didn’t really get what I needed. And I actually didn’t need much. I was like pretty chill as a kid, but. Yeah.

Callie [01:06:23] Yeah. Well, you were also the first kid too and like, let’s be real, parents usually fuck up the first. Either they’re too helicoptery or they’re too standoffish. It’s like the one or two, one or the other. Yeah.

Nichole [01:06:41] So, yeah. That’s all a good point.

Callie [01:06:42] Yeah. And there’s also a lot of things too that like, parents can do by accident to mess up attachment style. Like I think, I don’t know this for sure, but it is something that has made me wonder. So my brother had colic when he was a baby and we’re only like a year apart, a year, year and a half, something like that in age, so we’re very close together. And so me being still that young and then my brother having colic, and if you know anything about colic like babies just tend to like cry constantly. Like he just was in so much discomfort and pain. And I think that was probably traumatizing for like every one of us. But something like that, too, could then mess up attachment style because if your sibling maybe needs more attention or has needs that like your parents are struggling to meet, then they may not be able to, like, fully attune to one or all of the kids, right? So some of these things can happen even without like, oh, a person being a bad parent, you know what I mean, it’s just like stuff can sometimes happen. Or like you mentioned earlier, a parent may pass away and then that can create an attachment injury, you know?

Callie [01:07:57] So there’s just so many ways in which attachment injuries can happen and that it can end up kind of forming. What I’m really hoping is that the more people, like, get to know their attachment style and relate to it, then we can at least have some understanding as to like why people act in the way they do. You know what I mean, instead of being like, oh, I’m hurt and I think you’re just being a jerk. It’s like, oh, I can understand why you’re acting that way and I can understand why I’m acting this way. You know what I mean?

Nichole [01:08:28] Mm hmm. Yeah. So I think part of what was interesting for me around this topic was when we were discussing with our friend, you know, Callie and her having these experiences as young children, just in talking through all of it really came to realize, like how much we truly do praise children for acting like adults. And even how we praise adults for acting like adults, like even what we code as mature or desirable traits. So, you know, Callie brought up, like just the general capitalist understanding that there’s not enough resources to go around, there’s competition, that some people have and some people don’t and you don’t wanna be a person who doesn’t. Like that all definitely factors in a lot. I can say for sure as being a kid who didn’t have, and understanding how other people looked at us and knowing that like no one was going to help us. That definitely heavily factored into, you know, my behavior as an adult and my internalized ideas about other people in relationships.

Nichole [01:09:46] But we were thinking, or even the whole crying it out thing, like that’s definitely something. But even beyond that, even the more subtle stuff, which is always the stuff we like to dig into. You know, there’s just things like how we talk about like, oh, she’s such a good baby. She doesn’t need anything. She’s such a good baby. She’s just so quiet. I remember my mom saying this really fucked up thing to me many times when I was a kid where, which probably hurt both me and my sister. But she would say, like, oh, you tricked me. You were such a good baby so I had your sister and she was a nightmare. And I was like, wow two for one. Like, fuck up both your kids with one comment.

Nichole [01:10:33] But you know, so like, and she used to say that to me from when I was like, pretty young. And again, like, a lot of my behavior might have been autism and just the way my autism presented was that I was like very, I just really didn’t love being around other people. And I was very, had a very rich internal world. I taught myself to read when I was like two, I think right before I was three. And I loved books and I just could either be building something or reading something like all day and be happy and just not really want to be around other people. So even though my mom said that behavior was weird and creeped her out, then she also is like, but you tricked me because you were so easy and then your sister wasn’t easy. So then my sister grows up knowing that like she was this burden to my mother, right? My sister probably had calick or something.

Callie [01:11:24] At an age where she couldn’t possibly do anything about it, like…

Nichole [01:11:27] Colic, not calick. No, exactly. Now, my sister is a fuckin psycho and we do not talk to this day, but, you know, probably, like that didn’t help in her mental health. And I know that was ableist but like, she’s my sister, I can say it. But, you know what I mean, and that also set her and I up to feel adversarial to each other rather than feeling bonded and like we could count on one another. So, you know, just it’s things like that, like the way, I know that’s a slightly extreme example, but not really. I feel like that’s something a lot of parents would kind of say offhand. Something to that effect and not really realize how like, like my mom was praising me for not having needs, not expressing needs, and for being very isolated. Right? I mean essentially that’s what she was telling me was desirable behavior for my kid.

Nichole [01:12:30] Whereas if you’re in some kind of pain, like my sister, you know, she said my sister came out screaming and never stopped. So, you know, my sister must have been in some kind of pain to be like that, and must have not been having her needs met probably a lot of the time, and that’s a rough start. And then to know that, like the person who was taking care of you at that time, first of all, must have been communicating that through her energy, right? That she’s, like, stressed out, not wanting to deal with this. But then also, like, as you’re a young child and starting to, like, form your identity, knowing that you were this burden to this person and that your needs were burdensome is very difficult. And I know I got praised a lot for being, to tie this back to what I was gonna say, like, I got praised a lot for being very mature and very, like, self-contained, right? And again, we’re just coding different behavior in different ways.

Nichole [01:13:35] I think about how we tell little kids like, oh, you did that all by yourself, you’re such a big, big person. You know, like a big girl or a big boy and, you know, like, good for you, and like oh, I’m so proud of you for doing that alone and doing it all by yourself. And I think, like, I get why we say that, and I do think that there’s something there to praise a kid trying things and not being afraid to try stuff on their own or experiment in general with stuff. But I don’t feel like that’s the message that comes through a lot when we talk to little kids. I think the message that comes through is that, like, you did not burden me with this, so I am happy. And now this is your thing that you get to go do on your own. Now, I don’t have to do it with you.

Nichole [01:14:25] And in, you know, I think it also got into deeper stuff, which I’ll let you jump in on if you want to. But, you know, we came around in our conversation to things like, and this can dip into just straight-up abuse, but how a lot of parents think they need to prepare their kid for the real world when they’re still a child, even a baby. I mean, some people let their baby cry because they’re like, you know, when you grow up the world’s not going to come and comfort you so you need to learn now when you’re literally a fresh out of the oven little loaf of a person that you need to self-soothe.

Callie [01:15:03] Awww, that’s so cute! That’s such a cute way of phrasing it.

Nichole [01:15:06] Yep. All wrinkly and fresh.

Callie [01:15:11] Yeah.

Nichole [01:15:13] And I think that was probably the biggest thing that we kind of came around to in our conversation is like, ooh let’s unpack this, right?

Callie [01:15:19] Yeah. Yeah, there’s this need, I think for a lot of people to feel like you have to prepare your child for how cruel and tough the world is. And also if they’re not in the same place as all of their other peers, then you almost have to, like, go even harder in a way. Like, you know, I saw, and I won’t call this person out because I wouldn’t, I don’t know if they’d want this shared on the episode itself. But like, you know, like you hear stories all the time of little kids who, like, struggled a lot longer than maybe their other peers to be, like, dropped off at school. You know, like maybe they weren’t ready to be separated from their parents at the age of five or whatever. And that was traumatic. They cried a lot, they struggled with that.

Callie [01:16:15] And we just have this view of like, ugh they need to, like, toughen up and they’ll get over it. Instead of realizing like not everyone develops in the same timeframe. And that that can create attachment injury, to like think that like, oh, if someone is struggling, then they just, like we have to work even harder to make sure, or we have to like put even more pressure on them to just like, well you have to fucking do it. Like you’ve got to just get over it. You know, instead of like being attuned to their needs and being like, oh, well OK, maybe they’re like not ready. You know what I mean? Or maybe they need, like, extra attention or maybe we should come up with things to do instead of just this like, let’s let them cry it out style of parenting, you know? I don’t know why some kids, like, struggle with that more than others. But instead of, like, investigating that, we just have this bootstrap mentality of like that’s just the way the world is. You go to kindergarten at five years old and you gotta get the fuck over it. And it’s like that’s not creating secure, like, well-adjusted people in the world, you know?

Nichole [01:17:21] Right! Well and it can’t be natural.

Callie [01:17:23] Exactly. Yeah.

Nichole [01:17:25] You know, because back in the day you didn’t drop your kids off somewhere else when they were still small children.

Callie [01:17:31] Right, with strangers.

Nichole [01:17:32] And I’m not judging, like please don’t read that as judging, you know, preschool or daycare or whatever. But that’s the point is that, yeah, like parents feel this pressing need that like, well, you know, my kid’s going to have to go to kindergarten. My kid’s gonna have to go to school. And then they’re gonna have to move out. And then they’re going to have to, like, buy their own house. So they better learn now when they’re three to fuckin pull themselves up and toughen up and like fuckin do it.

Callie [01:18:02] By their baby bootstraps.

Nichole [01:18:02] Yeah, you have a little three-year-old sitting there holding their, like Dora the Explorer backpack being like what is happening right now? But I think it’s… It’s just this weird thing. Like I can understand being like, this is how it is now. And you do have to navigate that right, like you do, even if you’re the best parent in the world and raising your kid in a super secure way. Like you, that is something you still have to navigate. That this is the world now. Like you are going to have to go to kindergarten and be away for me, even if you’re not ready to be. But I think also, like, at least acknowledging that this is not like an inherently natural way to raise children. That children traditionally, like, historically, like primitively, have always been raised in community. And not just raised in community, but people in general always lived in community all the time. Like you didn’t have a break where all of a sudden the kids were like segregated and having to be away. Like you’re just running around, you’re all doing stuff. You’re learning trade, right, because you’re running around, like everyone working and poking around and like learning stuff. And having friends and having your relatives around you and your neighbors. Like it is very in the broad scope of humanity, very recent and very bizarre that we do this to our kids. So exactly to your point, like to have a child who’s having issues with that at four or five or six years old, and then to have each child treated like they’re being immature.

Callie [01:19:51] Literally immature.

Nichole [01:19:53] Yeah, and told to toughen up and get over it. It’s, it is harmful. And that’s the kind of thing that I think is so fucking common. And it is seen as… I think some people judge it, but it’s seen as pretty normal to just be like, like my kids got to grow up, right? Maybe people don’t phrase it so harshly but people say that.

Callie [01:20:14] Or they do.

Nichole [01:20:17] I mean, a lot of people do. But you’ve got to grow up. You’ve got to toughen up. You got to learn this is the real world. I need to go to work. You need to go to school. And yeah, you do need to go to work so the kid needs to go to school. But, like, that doesn’t mean that it’s not, that doesn’t mean that your kid is ready for it. And it doesn’t mean that they’re immature if they’re not, or they don’t want that disruption in their life, you know?

Callie [01:20:41] Yeah. Yeah and again, this isn’t to like, judge individual parent’s actions. I know a lot of this is like obviously like, yeah, the fact that we have this like, one caretaker mentality, right, of like maybe one parent stays home and the other goes out and has to work to try to like provide an income, or they both have to work and the kid is either left alone or left in daycare, with a babysitter or whatever. It’s like this isn’t to judge individual actions. It’s just to talk about that like, again, our society, especially in the West, as this like grossly capitalistic bootstrap mentality, is like really fucking people up.

Callie [01:21:19] And it just is yet again, in another example, very counter to like our actual needs. You know, like we are, it’s like we’re programmed, it’s in our DNA to like, as babies, cry when we need our parent’s attention. There is a bond that’s created by a parent or any caregiver, any person around, right, when it was more of like communal living, attuning to a child’s needs. Or that even when the child gets a little bit older and then they’re able to, like, run around and socialize, that they know the people they’re with. You’re not just like dropping your kid off with like a fucking stranger. You know?

Callie [01:21:58] I just think, like, what could be better besides the fact that people, like we have the example of people being homeless or being either unfed or underfed, as examples of how fucking broken our society is and that this capitalistic way of living is just purely not working for us. Like, what a better example of that than like attachment style. And really understanding that on a like individual basis, like we are creating people with insecure attachment style because of our culture. That other cultures do not even have this style. Like that is like foundational. Like that is something that could really help people understand like how wrong all of this is, you know?

Nichole [01:22:51] Mm hmm. Yeah.

Callie [01:22:51] Because like what you were saying, the fact that we teach… The fact that we praise kids that act like adults. Like I was like that as a kid. I was praised a lot when I was young as like being wise beyond my years and being so mature and acting like a mini adult. And that was because of trauma. That should have been a red flag, not a gold star.

Nichole [01:23:21] That could be the title of your memoir.

Callie [01:23:28] Dude, that’s too real.

Nichole [01:23:28] And when you finally come out as a full lesbian, it’ll have layers of meaning to it.

Callie [01:23:37] Oh god. Well, I wouldn’t be a gold star anyway, because…

Nichole [01:23:47] That’s the joke.

Callie [01:23:47] But yeah, we do tend to force… I mean, I can think of countless stories not only in my own life but in close, multiple close friends I’ve had throughout my life that have talked about their parents like, thinking that they needed to be harder on their kid to try to prepare them for the world at large. I mean, I had a friend, too, like… I don’t know if I actually want to share that. Parents who think that they have to, like, keep their kids grounded. Right, by like, not letting too much praise go to their head. And so they end up creating insecurities because they don’t want their kid to, like, feel too good about themselves. Or you have parents who let their, have this like, oh my kid has to, like, toughen up or cry it out.

Callie [01:24:42] Like, it’s been interesting reading some of the comments and hearing people talk about, like, how they think that maybe they had an anxious attachment style when they’re younger and maybe now they’re avoidant. But I wonder how many people with avoidant behaviors are actually like anxious people, but they’ve just been, they’ve kind of learned that society, like doesn’t shame avoidant behavior as much as anxious. And so, like, that’s… It’s either forcing people to have a different attachment style or move avoidant up in like this, you know, the spectrum of, because it’s not 100% or zero, but people that are like having to learn to like regulate their behavior in a way of like, oh, I don’t need anyone. You know?

Callie [01:25:30] A lot of parents make that mistake where they think they have to prepare their child for how tough the world is. And the reality is, if you love your child and attune to their needs and try to give them a safe environment to process their feelings, to learn how to love, to learn how to build healthy, secure attachments, they will be prepared for the world. Because they will be much more prepared for the hard moments if they are a pretty mentally healthy and secure person. The problem comes from creating attachment injury and thinking you have to tough them up and then send them out into the world.

Callie [01:26:16] That’s what creates problems is we have a bunch of like broken people running around. And I don’t mean broken as like a slam. I mean it in like a deeply empathetic way, and also as a broken person myself, creating more problems or really struggling then with the problems. Like, think about like if you know someone who is secure. When something bad happens, when they lose their job or when they get into a relationship and the person’s like not good for them, they’re able to see that and walk away. It’s the people who have attachment injuries or have, are struggling with mental health problems that end up getting stuck in these cycles, you know? I just, I wish that parents wouldn’t do that to their kids. Think that they have to create a tough environment inside the home to prepare them for outside the home. It’s like, no, you create a safe base for them to be welcomed and loved and feel okay. And that will give them the toughness that they need to go out into the world. It’s just so counterintuitive that parents are doing the opposite. You know?

Nichole [01:27:29] Yeah. Well and it’s a big part of, in my view, why we are in a situation where we are, where our country is literally fascist. You know, capitalism is literally on fire. And yet we still have a giant percentage of our population who’s just like, that’s the way things are. Y’all are a bunch of fuckin liberal babies and blah blah blah and just telling us to grow up. How many times during this election cycle have we heard that it’s immature to have a purity test for who you vote for. Or it’s immature to want, you know, basic human rights for people. Or it’s immature to like, think that everyone should have health care? How many times have we seen that meme go around, and then we all twist it on its head, but of, you know, essentially like I was liberal in my 20s and then you grow up and become conservative in your 50s, or whatever it is. Right, just essentially saying that like liberalism, which is so funny because us leftists are like pft. You know, like you’re still not getting it.

Nichole [01:28:37] But that, like, liberalism or leftism is immature, and inherently young and immature viewpoint. And that the mature viewpoint is that everyone should have to fend for themselves. That I should not want my money going to other people. That I need to protect my own and everyone else can fuck off. Like we literally as a culture condition people to this. And we cannot, I think another thing to add into this conversation is we cannot underestimate how much access to media tiny children have nowadays. And how much our media, no matter what it tries to do, always ends up reflecting whatever society believes.

Nichole [01:29:23] So, you know, how much of these capitalist values are infiltrating different forms of children’s media. And, you know, just kids, like a lot of kids when they get even like five or six years old, start watching, like, what the fuck ever. And I’m not a huge fan of censoring what kids watch, but at the same time, if they’re not being raised in a very secure and, frankly, anticapitalist way, then that is just going to reinforce what they’re already being taught. And does run the risk, I think even in a good situation of kind of getting through. Because we make capitalism look great and flashy and like, I just think even now, I can still reflect on how many things got through and were really internalized by me, even as someone who was always inherently anticapitalist. How many, you know, still, talked about it a million times, about how much my, I feel like my value is on my productivity. And how I might define success differently than someone who’s a capitalist or pro-capitalism, but I still do have measures of success that aren’t necessarily tied to, like, my well-being as a human.

Nichole [01:30:41] So I think that that all, you know is, I just think it helps to explain. I think we have, we do, have a significant population of avoidant people who grew up thinking this is what it is, you’re on your fucking own, you better work and make it because no one’s coming to help you. And they’re parents and they’re voters, right? And we collectively have, you know, if we look at how paternalistic our entire country is, how our government is, you know, we joke about the big daddy all the time. But if we also look at it in this way, if we look at ourselves as collective children of the patriarchy of this country, we are also being perpetually raised in an essentially avoidant condition.

Callie [01:31:31] Yeah. Yeah, that we value avoidant traits, right? That we glorify them in some ways. Yeah. God, you brought up so many good points. It reminds me, too, of something I think I’ve mentioned way back on the show, probably on VWPA where, how these like capitalist values that are taught to us early on, and now having this new framework to kind of view the world through this like attachment style framework, that I do think it’s capitalist values. But I think it’s like more related to, I think it’s like a merge between capitalist values and attachment style and the fact that we glorify avoidant behaviors, right?

Callie [01:32:20] Because I was, I’ve reflected a lot over the last couple of years of like growing up and being taught things, like a lot of other people are, about like how we’re supposed to view people that are homeless. Right, and about that they’re like failures and they’re, it’s like, you know, kill or be killed kind of world. And that we can’t spend too much time or too many resources like looking out for others because, like, no one’s gonna look out for us and we just have to, like, take care of our own selves or our family because, you know, there’s not enough to go around. We live in scarcity, which is fake. But I think that has a lot to do with, like, this attachment parenting, right? If you teach your baby that like they need to learn how to self soothe, that they need to teach themselves how to care for themselves. And then you teach a kid who’s being dropped off at school, probably too young, and separated from their caregivers, separated from people they know, that they just need to toughen up.

Callie [01:33:22] I mean, it’s all part of this foundation that’s teaching people that they need to be okay on their own because no one cares about their needs, so they shouldn’t care about other people’s needs. And it just makes a lot of sense then why, as Nichole was saying, we have full-on adults arguing that it’s like fine, that we have people that like don’t have food or shelter. That that’s just like part of the culture we live in. And that it’s like immature to believe otherwise. You know? I mean, it makes sense if that’s like what you’ve been taught your whole life. Not just about this like economic sense, but about the way you relate to the world, the way you attach to the people around you. It’s very cold and like, no wonder, you know? No wonder we have the kind of problems we do, especially in this country. I mean, I’m not saying other countries aren’t also grossly capitalist, but a lot of them at least have some sort of socialized medicine. There at least is some sort of understanding that people have like a basic expectation of care from their government. And we just, like, don’t even have that here.

Nichole [01:34:33] Yeah, yeah. And I think, I mean, also, I think there’s some very obvious conditioning for anxious attachment as well. I think when it comes to, you know, our livelihoods, our value as productive citizens, that’s very avoidant. But I think if you look at media around love if you look at media around, like high school or young adult years, like that is all very anxious. It’s all teaching you that one person is going to come along and change your life. Which is a very typical anxious belief is that you’re going to find this one relationship and the one relationship’s going to fix everything. You’re taught to chase after people. You’re taught that, you know, something that should be a red flag is exciting and even points to that, that person’s your true love.

Nichole [01:35:29] Like, look at how much avoidant behavior is modeled in romantic media, but it’s modeled as a way of it being, like, enticing. And then the person we’re supposed to identify with, the main character, is really essentially exhibiting anxious behavior and is eventually rewarded for that behavior, right, by sticking it out and the avoidant person eventually comes along after all of their persistence. Which is very annoying as an avoidant person, by the way. Persistence is the last thing we want.

Nichole [01:36:04] But I think like, so it models this weird, and I think that’s why a lot of it is very gendered, too. Like, I do not think women are as much praised for avoidant behavior. It’s definitely part of the cool girl trope. But in real life, my experience has been that society does not like an avoidant woman at all. They’re coded as sluts. They’re coded as extremely immature. They’re constantly asked when they’re going to, like, settle the fuck down and like, stop being ridiculous. There’s a lot of ageism in it. Like it might be cute to do in your early 20s but after that, it starts being pathetic or sad. So I think for men, I think avoidant behavior is more glorified. Whereas for women, I feel like anxious behavior is more shown in media to be acceptable in that way. It’s shown from like a feminine viewpoint of like this, “Men, am I right?” Like, you just gotta keep after ’em.

Nichole [01:37:07] And that’s what you’re taught, that’s what love looks like. And even as an avoidant person, I also internalize those messages of like, oh, it’s the chase and like, you know, like eventually someone comes around and then you know that they’re your person because you went through all this stuff together and it’s just very backwards. And think about like the ending of romcoms is usually that we’re never going to see these people again. We’re supposed to believe that like they’re magically happy forever after this, right? We leave them in this perpetual state of perfection. And it’s usually right when the other person, like, finally commits and comes around. Or finally apologizes or whatever. Right, resolves the conflict. Which we all know from experience that a lot of times that’s when it, right before it actually falls apart permanently.

Callie [01:37:58] Mm hmm, yeah.

Nichole [01:37:58] Right? Because the person finally comes around and then you realize you don’t want them because they’re a fucking mess. Or you realize you have nothing in common and it was actually the chase that was keeping you going the whole time. Or they just end up leaving again and then you finally had enough and you finally cut it off. But it’s just so funny to me that that’s where we show the resolution is like, oh, look like this person came back and did like a gesture and now it’s all better and now they’re happy forever. And it’s like, well, odds are they actually, that’s probably right before they actually broke up for the last time. Or, you know, like ended this cycle. So, and, you know, and then we get a nation of like, why do you think we all are obsessively talking about dating in this country and how fucking awful and impossible it is? It’s because those are the two messages that we’re all absorbing all the time is this like super avoidant and then super anxious messaging. And then we’re trying to interact with each other.

Callie [01:38:59] Yeah. Yeah, that’s… That’s a really good point, I hadn’t considered that. That there does tend to be this glorification of anxious behavior. It’s also why I can look back on a lot of the kind of romantic storylines I like, they tend to have this like, there’s this magic solution why someone would know that this person’s like their person. Like they don’t really have to like… There’s always some conflict that they have to work through. But there’s never really a question that they’re like the one for you, because that kind of solves the anxious problem, right? Of being like, well how, and avoidant I guess, too, of like, well how do I really know? How can I really trust this? And it’s like the universe has solved that for you. Like there is somehow this, like mystical pairing. There is some way of knowing that you two belong together, so like any little conflict you have is not that big of a deal, because at the end of the day, you two were like made for one another, you know?

Nichole [01:40:06] Yeah. And you never have to question it.

Callie [01:40:08] Yeah. Yeah.

Nichole [01:40:10] Yeah. Yeah, and even storylines, and it has become a lot more common to have what I would consider avoidance storylines, particularly for women in romantic, you know, people coded female in romantic movies. We see it in queer media a lot. I think we’ve analyzed at least, you know, a good chunk of it here. But even if the main character is what we would probably say is avoidant, a big mile marker of them meeting the one is that they suddenly become anxious. Right?

Callie [01:40:46] Mm hmm.

Nichole [01:40:47] It’s not that they suddenly feel safe and secure and they’re like, wow, this is like, I’m actually like not, you know, I’m actually feeling like we have good conflict resolution and I just feel really at ease with this person. And this person makes me feel like I can trust them. No, it’s a person being like, what the fuck? Like, I’m thinking about them all the time and I’m like, worried and I’m like, obsessing and I, you know, I need to talk to them constantly. Like what happened to me, I’m never like this? So it’s still always like love, like true love is always coded in someone being anxious. And usually someone being avoidant, right? Fuckers.

Callie [01:41:31] Yeah, yeah. It’s not-

Nichole [01:41:36] So it fucks up our relationships a lot.

Callie [01:41:38] It’s not good. I mean, and, you know, the sad thing is, is the longer you’re in the dating pool, which I fucking hate that phrase, I’m sorry for you saying it.

Nichole [01:41:50] My fingers are pruney.

Callie [01:41:52] Yeah. Yeah, they are pruney as hell.

Nichole [01:41:56] My skin is all wrinkly. It’s translucent at this point.

Callie [01:41:58] Yeah, for real. But the sad is, is secure people tend to like, they find a person who, and they settle down. And then what’s left is a lot of like anxious and avoidant people trying to date each other which is rough.

Nichole [01:42:16] Well and they talk about that in Attached, that it isn’t just your imagination that like there actually are a larger percentage of anxious and avoidant people out there, particularly avoidant people, which tracks with my dating record. Because I’m avoidant but I’m actually like a secure-avoidant, or avoidant-secure. I still haven’t determined like how much of a percentage where, I don’t play games with people, I’m not an asshole. I’m just, I just do have the belief that, like, I can’t really rely on other people. But I’m also not like, I’m not out here playing games with people. You know what I mean? So it’s weird for me because, like, if I found a secure person, I would be fine and I think that I would be able to be very healthy. I might have a couple of things to work through, but I think largely I’d be able to be like a healthy partner for that person.

Nichole [01:43:09] But, yeah so anyway, I tend to be drawn to other avoidant people, which is a fucking nightmare. And then you do, you’re like am I losing it or is everyone out here what I now know is avoidant, right? How many times do you hear that? Like everyone out here seems like they don’t actually want a relationship. Everyone out here is ghosting everybody. Everyone out here is like playing fucking mind games, right? And then it was a relief to read that book, and they’re like, well, that is actually kind of true because secure people tend to settle down. And their relationships tend to last longer. So they do tend to find someone, settle down and then stay in a relationship, whereas, you know, particularly avoidant people are hopping around all the time. And so they’re always out dating and fucking the rest of us up.

Callie [01:44:03] Yeah. Well, and I think dating apps, too, are just designed to bring out, like, our worst possible behaviors. I feel like they just amplify both avoidant behaviors and anxious behaviors, you know?

Nichole [01:44:14] Completely agree.

Callie [01:44:15] And so it just makes it really hard. Because you’re not really, like you’re not really seeing the humanity of the other people if you’re on an app like Tinder. And unfortunately, all dating apps are now using this kind of like swipe mentality. And if you could just sit there and, like, fucking swipe through people like they’re playing cards, you know, and it’s like, oh, if this person doesn’t get back to me quickly enough, like, I’m gonna go talk to someone. Like, it just, it like amplifies, right, all of the worst parts of insecure attachment style. And it’s really unfortunate.

Nichole [01:44:47] It is quite unfortunate.

Callie [01:44:51] Like there’s, that’s not even a strong enough word for how disgusted I feel by it.

Nichole [01:44:58] Yeah. It’s rough. Yeah, you know, I just started watching Lucifer cause Callie always talks about it, and a bunch of you on Discord were talking about it and I felt FOMO so I was like, let me watch this. And I just like couldn’t, I just can’t get into it. No judgment because I watch a lot of trash, I just for whatever reason. But part of what’s bothering me is in, I guess, mild spoiler, but not really. Is, you know, this woman meets Lucifer and then she has her husband that she’s separated from. And but they’re not like divorced and there’s kind of this vibe of like maybe they’re gonna be, maybe they’re kind of working on it. But now Lucifer is there and he’s so exciting.

Nichole [01:45:38] And it’s like, I think the show wants you to want her to get with Lucifer, but I’m watching and I’m like, okay, her husband has good communication skills, he’s a good dad, he’s like has amazing, like together as a couple, they have amazing conflict resolution, they’re co-parenting brilliantly. And I’m like, I’m sorry, at this point in my life, like that is a fucking turn on. I do not need this like, bad boy. Don’t even get me started. I already could do a huge analysis on that show and consent, so don’t get me started on that. But like, yeah, why would you need this guy? Also, that child is literally the cutest human I’ve ever seen in my life. And I know it’s supposed to be funny when Lucifer’s like ew, but it’s like, no, you’re literally a monster. She is the cutest person who’s ever lived. I’m sorry. Like… Yeah.

Callie [01:46:34] Yeah. I mean, yeah, he is a monster. He’s the literal devil, so.

Nichole [01:46:38] You are a literal monster. And not because of your glowing eyes or that you torture people. It’s because you don’t like this child. But you know what I mean? I think it’s like a classic, like avoidant, kind of what Callie was talking about, like how we do glorify particularly avoidant traits in men. Right, Lucifer is the epitome of that. He’s always like fucking people once. He’s literally in therapy to try to not have feelings for his partner or whatever we’re going to call her. He hates children, right? Like, he has no attachments. He even treats his good friends, his bodyguard.

Callie [01:47:18] Maze.

Nichole [01:47:18] I’m not really sure what, Maze, what her exact relationship is, but like he treats her like shit, right? And yet we’re supposed to be like, oh my god, he’s the fuckin, like panties off. You know, like just, we’re just supposed to be wet and ready for him and think, and just be like, not just wanting to fuck him, but like we are supposed to be in her place of like oh yeah, like wanting a relationship with him and wanting him to, like, tame himself for us. And it’s just, and yet there’s this hot ass fuckin dad right there who’s just being all fuckin responsible. And that’s who I’m wet for. Sorry.

Callie [01:48:03] Yeah.

Nichole [01:48:03] But it’s just such a clear, you know, watching it now because it was made a few years ago, not like that long ago. But, you know, just watching it now and just being like, oh, this is not… This used to be my jam. And now fortunately I’ve gone through enough shit that I’ve gotten over that and now I can see it for what it is. But it’s just it’s so common, it’s so fucking common that that is the dynamic that we’re introduced into, is this person who’s inherently avoidant and we’re supposed to just be enraptured by that and be super into it and be rooting for whoever to, like, get that person to settle down with them, right?

Callie [01:48:44] Yeah. Yeah.

Nichole [01:48:52] Yeah.

Callie [01:48:52] Yeah.

Nichole [01:48:52] So, I could talk about this for four days, but I think I’ve said what I needed to say.

Callie [01:48:59] Yeah.

Nichole [01:49:00] How are you feeling?

Callie [01:49:01] Yeah. Yeah, no, I think we summed it up really well. I mean, I think a lot of this, like, kind of… I’m really glad we talked about it, but I think it just kind of speaks to, like, yet another reason why, like capitalism and our culture is just so sick, you know? It just encourages, like, everything counter to what we actually need. And I think not that I’m sure, our audience or we, needed like yet another reason to see the faults of capitalism. But I think the fact that we can now see that even from like a developmental level from babies upward, we can see the harm and attachment injury that’s being done to people by encouraging these like bootstrap mentalities. And this like figure it out yourself, self-soothe, act like a little adult as a kid, and all of that is just really counter, honestly, to like creating healthy, like, well-adjusted, secure adults. And if I could say anything to people, it would just be like create a soft place for children to learn and grow, and they will be then tough enough to handle the outside world. It just really breaks my heart that parents think that they have to like-

Nichole [01:50:23] Push them out of the nest?

Callie [01:50:23] Yeah, and just that they have to like be hard so that their kids learn how to be hard. And this is a really great way of seeing, like, that’s actually been proven inaccurate so can we stop? Like, can we stop damaging kids and thinking that we’re doing them a favor? Because it doesn’t help anybody, you know? It doesn’t.

Nichole [01:50:52] Yeah. Absolutely. And as much as you can, you know, take accountability for your shit, work on it, there’s resources out there even if you can’t go to therapy. Therapy obviously is the best option, although it can be very hard to find a therapist that is right for you. That’s an extremely intimate relationship. But there’s a lot of therapists who do focus on attachment style or do integrate it very heavily into their work. So if you wanted to work with someone specifically from that framework, that is something you should be able to find. But, you know, even reading articles, reading books.

Nichole [01:51:31] Where I learned about this first was in a book called Attached, and it has like a heart out of a magnet or something on the cover. And I feel like that focuses mainly from like a dating and romantic relationship perspective. But I think it was really easy to consume and really helped me a lot to see my patterns of behavior. And I was able to apply it to other relationships in my life pretty easily. But I personally would recommend that as a starting point if you’re interested in learning more and maybe doing some personal work and exploration on your own. And then also, as we recommended, Psychology in Seattle has like 15 or 18 hours, something wild, series. But it is locked behind their Patreon donation wall. But just let me know if that’s something that you can’t afford. And we may be able to help out with that. If you are actually going to sit and listen to these lengthy podcasts on this.

Nichole [01:52:42] And he’s a psychologist, obviously so he goes into, I like listening to his stuff because he talks about it. He talks about it, you know, generally, and then he talks about treatment for it from like a therapist perspective of like modalities of treatments. And he also talks to other therapists and other mental health professionals in a way that I just really like having that insight. So it’s much more than someone just explaining it to you as like a patient or a person. It’s actually from like this very professional perspective. But he does also make it pretty accessible. It’s not like too academic or dry at all. And he, you know, works in his years of experience. So he has just like a lot of stories and examples to help you understand things better.

Callie [01:53:42] Yeah.

Nichole [01:53:42] So next week, we’re going to be tackling a topic that I’ve been chewing on for a while. This was actually inspired by an episode of Law and Order SVU, as so many things are. But we’re actually going to try to navigate the very touchy topic of, you know, telling people that abuse isn’t love. I think that that is actually really, really dangerous and damaging. And so we’re gonna walk through that carefully, you know, but I’m gonna explain why I think that that is really harmful. We’re going to talk about things like trauma bonding. And we’re just going to talk about abuse in general. And this will possibly be cathartic for people who have been abused. But this was really inspired by a friend asking for advice to support a friend who’s in an abusive relationship. So this will, that will be kind of the angle of this, is helping people of how to support and talk to people who may be caught in an abusive situation.

Nichole [01:54:47] Because that was the context that it was said on the show was like, honey, that’s not love. And I thought, like, that’s really dangerous to say to a victim of abuse. And it’s, sadly it’s not usually very accurate. So we’ll walk through that like. So having been someone who was pretty abused by an intimate partner as well as, you know, my parents, like, I just feel like I have a lot of insight on how we can have these conversations in a more constructive way and how we can support abuse victims better than just telling them that what they’ve experienced isn’t real, or isn’t valid or isn’t love. It may not be healthy love, but a lot of times it is actually its own form of love and so it can be really isolating for people to hear otherwise.

Callie [01:55:36] Yes.

Nichole [01:55:38] So we’ll get into that next week. Very excited. And yeah, if you liked, if you’re watching the video and you liked it, like, subscribe, click the bell for notifications. Leave us an emoji, you can leave some, like, little kid emojis or some hearts or whatever you’re feeling like. And, you know, just share us if you liked this episode and thought, you know, this is one I think might be more accessible to people who don’t know us and maybe aren’t radicalized yet and share us around.

Callie [01:56:11] Yeah.

Nichole [01:56:11] And hopefully we won’t get deactivated before next week, and we’ll see you then.

Callie [01:56:15] Oh god. Bye bye!

Nichole [01:56:18] Bye!

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