0:00

This episode is brought to you by by This episode is brought

0:02

to you by LifeLock. The holidays

0:05

mean more travel, more shopping, more time

0:07

online, and more personal info in places

0:09

that could expose you to identity theft.

0:12

That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data

0:14

points every second. If your

0:16

identity is stolen, their US-based restoration specialist

0:18

will fix it, guaranteed or your money

0:21

back. Get more holiday fun

0:23

and less holiday worry with LifeLock. Save

0:26

up to 40 percent your first

0:28

year. Visit lifelock.com/podcast. Terms apply. And

0:36

now from the the of Politics

0:38

at the University of Chicago

0:40

and CNN Chicago and CNN audio, The Axe

0:42

With your host, David

0:44

Axe. Axelrod. Since November 5th, there's

0:46

there's been a lot of

0:48

discussion in Democratic about what

0:50

happened and the lessons that

0:52

should be drawn. drawn. Well, I

0:55

I want you to

0:57

meet a young leader who

0:59

might provide some clues. clues.

1:01

Marie Glucin Camp Perez is a

1:03

congresswoman from country in southeast Washington and

1:05

one of the one of the most thoughtful

1:07

and independent -minded Democrats in Congress, in

1:09

Congress. owns an auto auto shop with

1:11

her husband. and speaks for

1:13

and with and not at her

1:15

constituents. That's why she has

1:18

the second straight election to fight the

1:20

tide to win a district. Trump has

1:22

carried three straight times. Here's our

1:24

conversation. Congresswoman,

1:29

it is, it's great to great to

1:31

meet you told you I told you

1:33

before we were rolling, I've been wanting to for

1:35

a very long time because you've been saying things

1:37

that made a lot of sense to me. of

1:40

sense those things have been underscored, I think,

1:42

by what we saw in the last election.

1:44

But before we get into all of that. before

1:46

we get want to talk a little

1:49

bit about your journey bit about how

1:51

you and how you came to be who

1:53

you are and think the way you think.

1:55

the way you think. and

1:57

so talk a Talk a

1:59

little bit about... that you're not a

2:01

Washingtonian by birth. You spend

2:03

most of your childhood in

2:05

Texas. Tell me a little

2:07

bit about your family. Yeah,

2:10

yeah. So my parents met

2:12

at Western Washington University. My

2:14

dad had some random aunt

2:16

there. And when the government

2:18

shut down the universities in

2:20

Mexico, he went out there

2:22

to get his degree. His

2:24

father on a bus factory,

2:26

they made buses in Mexico.

2:29

And so he was going

2:31

to get his degree in

2:33

engineering to help with that

2:35

and met my mom in

2:37

the cafeteria. And, you know,

2:39

they, yeah, they fell in

2:41

love and, you know, my

2:43

mom's family is all in

2:45

logging and my dad's family

2:48

really wasn't supportive of the

2:50

relationship and had him move

2:52

to another college to graduate

2:54

to kind of try and

2:56

break them up. And they

2:58

kind of, I think they

3:00

kind of viewed her as

3:02

a lower social class than

3:04

them and that was really

3:07

important to them. And

3:09

my parents stayed together obviously got

3:11

married anyways. And my dad got

3:13

a job in Texas. I think

3:15

he kind of wanted to be

3:17

closer to Mexico. And he got

3:19

a job there and they unfortunately

3:21

my family lost the bus factory

3:23

when the peso collapsed. But You

3:26

know one thing I'm I'm proud

3:28

of is like the you know

3:30

the family lawyers like there's I

3:32

don't know if there still are

3:34

but when I was a kid

3:36

there are people who are still

3:38

living off the pensions like my

3:40

my grandfather in Mexico made sure

3:42

to take care like of his

3:44

people and make sure that that

3:46

people were you know respected and

3:48

like paid and yeah so I

3:50

my my family is quite there

3:52

non-denominational evangelical Christians faith is really

3:54

important in my family and and

3:56

my dad was the lay pastor

3:58

of a Spanish language church. It's

4:01

a Bible church, which I like

4:03

to say is sort of like

4:05

Baptist, but with less hairspray. So,

4:07

you know, this was Texas under

4:09

the Bush administration. And so I

4:11

really saw closely the way that

4:13

There's a lot of wage theft.

4:15

There's a lot of just I

4:17

think community reliance like on the

4:19

church making sure that like families

4:21

were taken care of and and

4:23

trying to keep families together and

4:25

and you were you were you

4:27

were homeschooled is there right? Yeah

4:29

yeah my parents homeschooled us all

4:31

my mom homeschooled for like 20

4:33

years the older two siblings my

4:36

oldest two siblings are homeschooled till

4:38

they went to college and you

4:40

know the school district wasn't great

4:42

and My mom, you know, we,

4:44

we, it was a, it was

4:46

a very like, you know, my

4:48

parents don't believe in evolution. They're

4:50

very conservative. So they didn't want

4:52

us in those schools also. And

4:54

so it was, I love, my

4:56

mom is a great teacher. My

4:58

mom is, I have so much

5:00

admiration for her. and just the

5:02

way that I was able to

5:04

kind of follow my interest and

5:06

and you know that she's quite

5:08

skeptical like I remember her making

5:11

fun of Sesame Street when they

5:13

would have these little episodes where

5:15

they're like hug a tree now

5:17

hug yourself now hug a tree

5:19

she just thought that was so

5:21

funny and just you know I

5:23

think very skeptical of a lot

5:25

of kind of dogma and what's

5:27

good for people and what you

5:29

what you ought to be trying

5:31

to do with your life. They

5:33

actually didn't want me to go

5:35

to college. My parents were like,

5:37

you should start a small business

5:39

and I, which is funny when

5:41

your parents are right because that's

5:44

exactly what I did. Yeah, you

5:46

did it. But let me ask

5:48

you before because I want to

5:50

get into all of that, including

5:52

your choice of college because read

5:54

college isn't necessarily the one that

5:56

I would have guessed a kid

5:58

who was homeschooled and who's were

6:01

deeply conservative, evangelical, would have said,

6:03

yeah, that's the spot for you.

6:05

But we'll get to that in

6:07

a second. I just want to

6:09

ask you a question that I've

6:11

often wondered about. You know, one

6:13

of the things about going to

6:15

school is that you have a

6:18

community of classmates. And it strikes

6:20

me as kind of a lonely

6:22

thing to be homeschooled. And I'm

6:24

wondering, was that the case for

6:26

you? Well, my brother is 18

6:28

months older than me and so

6:30

we're really close, you know, fought

6:32

hard, played hard, loved each other,

6:35

still love each other deeply. But

6:37

yeah, it was lonely. I mean,

6:39

we had like homeschool groups, so

6:41

like we had other, a few

6:43

other families from the church that

6:45

were also homeschooling. So there's like

6:47

a, you know, there's a group

6:49

of us. But you know that's

6:52

yeah like that's like five hours

6:54

a week. I worked a lot.

6:56

I actually worked at a horse

6:58

barn starting when I was like

7:00

eight years old. I put up

7:02

a flyer there and was like

7:04

people paid me I think I

7:06

charged a dollar fifty to muck

7:08

out a stall. And because I

7:11

was homeschooled I could go in

7:13

the morning and and take care

7:15

of people's horses and you know

7:17

I really I really wanted a

7:19

horse and my parents were like

7:21

we don't have that kind of

7:23

money but so I just I

7:25

and we I did actually eventually

7:28

kind of get a horse for

7:30

a while but yeah I worked

7:32

a lot and but yeah it

7:34

was it was you know you're

7:36

kind of the only kid around

7:38

often but I also I think

7:40

that like the kind of homogeneity

7:42

of only being with people who

7:45

are your age is not natural

7:47

necessarily. So, you know, I was

7:49

friends with older people and like

7:51

retirees and but it was it

7:53

was a great education. It was

7:55

also yeah, like lonely at times.

7:57

Yeah, and then you went, I

7:59

guess, after like junior high school

8:02

or where you went, you know,

8:04

I went in eighth grade and

8:06

I was such a nerd and

8:08

like, yeah, I remember like, there

8:10

were a couple boys that like

8:12

spit on me in the school

8:14

bus and I like, you know,

8:16

just totally unaware of social Like.

8:19

know that the older kids try

8:21

and sit in the back of

8:23

the bus or like, whatever. And

8:25

it's funny because they say that

8:27

I read a paper once that

8:29

it was like, whatever you're doing

8:31

in eighth grade is kind of

8:33

what you're good at, like your

8:36

brain is sort of reorganizing itself

8:38

at that point. And so kind

8:40

of watching and thinking about what's

8:42

going on here. And in terms

8:44

of the social conservatism, I read

8:46

that you, the first political event

8:48

or protests that you attended was

8:50

an anti-abortion event. So how inculcated

8:53

were you with all of that,

8:55

of sort of conservative dogma? I

8:57

would say deeply, yeah, deeply. We

8:59

weren't the kind of family that

9:01

really talked a lot about politics

9:03

at home, but my parents subscribed

9:05

to a magazine, a conservative magazine

9:07

called World Magazine, I remember that,

9:10

and my family, so all of

9:12

my American families in Washington State,

9:14

and so we would spend summers

9:16

up there often, and like I

9:18

remember all of the kind of

9:20

dissonance between the sesame street like

9:22

hug a tree and then seeing

9:24

trees everywhere and seeing the devastation

9:26

of job loss. All you know

9:29

families used to have up these

9:31

yard signs in Watcom County probably

9:33

all up and down the peninsula

9:35

too like this home supported by

9:37

timber bucks and and just all

9:39

the the job loss and and

9:41

all you know my cousins up

9:43

there who were impacted by it

9:46

and and that was definitely the

9:48

the worldview that I I was

9:50

I was raised with. Yeah. It's

9:52

also, I mean, we'll get to

9:54

this later, but it's also something

9:56

that informs your worldview now. I

9:58

mean, you know, one of the

10:00

things that so interested me about

10:03

you is that you've been very

10:05

clear in critiquing how Democrats have

10:07

approached working people in this country.

10:09

And I often say, know it's

10:11

Democratic Party if it sees itself

10:13

as the party of working people

10:15

but we approach them like missionaries

10:17

and anthropologists you know we say

10:20

we're here to help you become

10:22

more like us yeah and with

10:24

it also is kind of the

10:26

kind of moral superiority and so

10:28

I mean I I believe deeply

10:30

that climate change is is a

10:32

threat. And we can see it,

10:34

you can see it in fires,

10:37

in fires and floods and hurricanes

10:39

and so on. But if you

10:41

make your living in forests, you

10:43

know, in logging, or if you

10:45

make your living, extracting energy from

10:47

the ground, losing the job that

10:49

gives you a good middle-class income.

10:51

That's an existential threat too. So

10:54

at least you have to have

10:56

that conversation and understand what the

10:58

other person is saying. You can't

11:00

come and say it's your moral

11:02

responsibility to stop doing what you're

11:04

doing. So I'm sure that your

11:06

early experiences helped inform how you

11:08

look at the world now. Oh,

11:11

for sure. You know, and like

11:13

I remember going on a tour

11:15

of... some conservation timberland and somebody

11:17

was like I don't know why

11:19

these loggers can't just follow the

11:21

science and I was like well

11:23

I do because in living memory

11:25

we were told that we needed

11:28

to straighten the stream beds and

11:30

remove all the woody debris and

11:32

you know now you're helicoptering in

11:34

route wads at great expense when

11:36

our schools don't have you know

11:38

central heat or whatever the you

11:40

know the AC system has been

11:42

there since never or the 1950s

11:44

and and it's like yeah science

11:47

science changes but science also needs

11:49

to be informed and by local

11:51

experience and local expertise. Like Wendell

11:53

Berry says it's probably more important

11:55

for a farmer to remember that

11:57

his grandmother said don't do that

11:59

than it is to have a

12:01

degree in soil science. it's everything

12:04

is so specific. Like yes, in

12:06

a lab it works this way.

12:08

You need to combine that understanding

12:10

with the actual specifics of what

12:12

happens with Frostheave in this microclimate.

12:14

And you know, so it's interesting,

12:16

you know, to have real to

12:18

be now, you know, on on.

12:21

and these meetings and and and

12:23

and in Congress yeah and in

12:25

this role where you're like I

12:27

would not have been invited to

12:29

this meeting and now I'm convening

12:31

it you know and trying to

12:33

kind of rebalance and say like

12:35

who is considered an expert like

12:38

who merits a seat at this

12:40

table And I think

12:42

to your your point about like

12:44

the sort of anthropologist mindset or

12:46

like the moral superiority, I think

12:48

seeing it on on both sides,

12:50

it's like in the same way

12:52

that you don't know whether or

12:54

not that stream bed really should

12:56

be straightened. You don't know. You

12:58

cannot legislate someone's right to abortion.

13:01

Like I don't I think you

13:03

don't know what that specific medical

13:05

condition is. You don't know, like

13:07

these staffer pros do not know

13:09

what they're talking about and they're

13:11

the ones writing legislation. Let's get

13:13

back, I want to get back

13:15

to your journey here and we'll

13:17

get to the, your current conundrum

13:19

of trying to figure out how

13:21

to navigate the world you find

13:23

out there. But tell me about

13:26

this read college thing because when

13:28

I was, I mean, I grew

13:30

up long before you did, some

13:32

people say I never did, but

13:34

read college was like, yeah, you

13:36

wanted to go to sort of

13:38

a lefty free thinking kind of

13:40

place that like all my friends

13:42

in New York thought, well, that

13:44

be a cool place to be.

13:46

So how do you get from

13:48

being the sort of homeschooled, kind

13:51

of cloistered, very conservative young woman

13:53

to there? And then what was

13:55

it like to be there coming

13:57

from where you came from? Yeah.

13:59

Well, I remember going to public

14:01

school. like being so offended that

14:03

I had to get a bathroom

14:05

pass that I'd like asked to

14:07

go to the bathroom like I

14:09

felt like that degraded my self-view

14:11

is like somebody with agency and

14:13

who wanted to learn you know

14:16

and and then going and thinking

14:18

about college and seeing some of

14:20

these like textbooks where it's all

14:22

about like buzzwords and leadership and

14:24

whatever and I saw in the

14:26

read curriculum that it's like a

14:28

lot of classics it's a lot

14:30

of you know first sources and

14:32

things like that where you are

14:34

at you or your agency as

14:36

someone who can think and learn

14:38

is held in, you know, you

14:41

need to have that view about

14:43

yourself to be here. We're not

14:45

here to like tell, you know,

14:47

tell you what to think. We're

14:49

here to think about what other

14:51

people have thought about and you

14:53

form your opinion about that. And

14:55

I, so there was a book

14:57

that came out when I was

14:59

in high school called Blue Like

15:01

Jazz that was written by an

15:03

evangelical Christian. like and and and

15:06

he went to read and he

15:08

or maybe he had friends there

15:10

or something he was he was

15:12

in Portland and aware you know

15:14

he was like That's how I

15:16

learned about Reed College was from

15:18

that book. And that's when I

15:20

started looking into it. And I

15:22

did want to go to school

15:24

in Northwest. I knew I wanted

15:26

to end up be around my

15:28

family and be up there. And

15:31

that's where I have, I felt

15:33

like my family is. And my

15:35

parents moved back there actually while

15:37

I was in college. Huh. So

15:39

yeah. Yeah. But they, I also

15:41

read that your parents, you exercise

15:43

your right to think freely, conclude

15:45

things for yourselves and so on.

15:47

Part of that, you became less

15:49

regular church attendee or something, but

15:51

you, and they were pissed about

15:53

it. Yes, yeah, when I stopped

15:56

going to church, they're like, we're

15:58

not condoning, we're not giving, we're

16:00

not going to help pay for

16:02

read. If you're not going to

16:04

church, if you're walking away from

16:06

the church, like we're not going

16:08

to support this, And so it

16:10

took me, I think I was

16:12

there for like seven years, I

16:14

paid for, I paid for classes

16:16

like in cash and like, I'm

16:18

like, I was working a lot

16:21

of jobs to do that and

16:23

that was a grind, but I'm

16:25

pretty stubborn. And I can see,

16:27

but working those jobs was kind

16:29

of life changing as well. Yeah,

16:31

I did piecework. I worked in

16:33

a factory that made iPhone cases.

16:35

And, you know, and, and, and

16:37

I was also, I was running

16:39

the bike co-op and so that

16:41

was, that was really wild for

16:43

me. I remember teaching a physics

16:46

major how to hold a wrench,

16:48

you know, and it's like, what

16:50

is going on here, you know?

16:52

Do that, like you are going

16:54

to get bloody knuckles, like you

16:56

got to move your hand back,

16:58

you know, and seeing sort of

17:00

the disconnect between maybe an academic

17:02

field and like. what you can't

17:04

be taught but what you need

17:06

to learn for yourself and the

17:08

necessity of that to come out

17:11

with a skill that's worth having,

17:13

you know. Yeah, your wrench story

17:15

makes me want to ask where

17:17

were you when I needed you,

17:19

but I digress. So you also,

17:21

you met your future husband in

17:23

that period of time, I guess

17:25

through bike repairs and so on.

17:27

Is that how you guys came

17:29

across each other? Yeah, pretty much.

17:31

I was actually, I met him,

17:33

he was working underneath an RV

17:35

and I was like, oh, who's

17:38

that? Like, he's cute. I found

17:40

something for him to fix and

17:42

called him up and yeah, we

17:44

started dating and that was, you

17:46

know, that was for him because

17:48

he would show up and he

17:50

would come get me. you know,

17:52

dirty, like he was like greasy,

17:54

right, and wearing shop clothes. And

17:56

these boys at Reed were very,

17:58

like, there were a few that

18:00

were just very condescending, very elitist,

18:03

very like, came up with nicknames

18:05

for him and, um, but you

18:07

know, it was like, to see

18:09

that directed, you know, I guess

18:11

I had thought that was sort

18:13

of like something maybe old people

18:15

did, but then to be like,

18:17

oh, this is just, this is,

18:19

this is class. This is like,

18:21

you think you're better than him.

18:23

You think you're smarter than him

18:25

and you're not. Like, that's very

18:28

ugly. A little bit of a

18:30

microcosm of the discussion we were

18:32

having. a few minutes ago of

18:34

the larger challenge of the four

18:36

people who consider themselves progressive. There

18:38

was an old expression in the

18:40

decades past, like in the 50s,

18:42

the definition of a liberal, and

18:44

I confess to thinking of myself

18:46

as one, was someone who loves

18:48

humanity but hates people. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

18:50

And I've been thinking about that

18:53

a lot lately. There was something

18:55

else I read, which is that

18:57

you organized the group to build

18:59

a bench on the Reed campus

19:01

as memorial to, I guess, a

19:03

friend or a boyfriend of yours

19:05

who had passed away. Then tell

19:07

me about that. Yeah, well, that

19:09

was a really difficult thing, but

19:11

there was a storm and a

19:13

really large tree came down. It

19:15

was a, it's over a hundred

19:18

year old fir tree. And yeah,

19:20

I got, I got, I. You

19:23

know, this is like the mentality of

19:25

like, you don't ask if you can

19:28

do something, you ask how you can

19:30

do it. And so, you know, worked

19:32

with the school to be able to

19:34

get this memorial up because they don't

19:37

allow memorials for individuals anymore. And we

19:39

got this, got this tree, we got

19:41

a six foot span of a old

19:44

growth fur and got students organized it.

19:46

We cut it, we ripped it with

19:48

a, we called a misery whip, a

19:51

two man misery whip. It's an old,

19:53

you know, it's the old cross cut

19:55

saw. And so I had it set

19:58

up in a parking lot and and

20:01

we'd get kids out there.

20:03

It was during finals week, so,

20:05

you know, come take a

20:07

break from studying and come,

20:09

you know, saw this log with

20:11

us and got that put

20:13

up. And it's still there,

20:15

I understand. Let me ask you

20:18

and feel free to tell

20:20

me you don't want to talk

20:22

about it, but obviously you felt

20:25

deeply enough to want to

20:27

build this memorial. Was this like

20:29

the first big loss in your

20:31

life? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

20:33

there's, yeah, pretty, pretty tragic. I

20:36

mean, I think suicide and young

20:38

men is, it's on the

20:40

rise and it's, you know, you,

20:43

people are, people are suffering, young

20:45

people are suffering. There's just

20:47

a lot of, I think, I

20:50

mean, it's a, it's a really

20:52

brutal. time to be trying

20:54

to get your feet under you

20:56

and have pride and self-worth and

20:59

I guess self-sufficiency I think

21:01

is like a very deeply

21:03

American you know and just you

21:05

know young people want to

21:07

be self-sufficient they want to have

21:10

agency and and you know it's

21:12

an epidemic it's an epidemic

21:14

right now. Did you know that

21:16

your friend was suffering? I did,

21:19

yeah, I think you don't

21:21

know the depth, you know, but

21:23

you see things going wrong and

21:26

it's, yeah, it's difficult to

21:28

talk about, I guess, still. Yeah,

21:30

you know, the reason I ask

21:32

is everyone who listens to

21:34

his podcast regularly and now you're

21:37

I've done more than 600 of

21:39

these conversations, so they know

21:41

everything about me. But you know,

21:44

I lost my dad to suicide

21:46

very suddenly and unexpectedly. Probably

21:48

if I had been older, I

21:51

might have anticipated something more readily,

21:53

but it is painful to

21:55

think about people so trapped

21:57

in long dark tunnel with no

21:59

light and no hope. And

22:01

so I try and talk about

22:04

it because one of the reasons

22:06

that people don't get help

22:08

is because we stigmatize it and

22:11

we treat what is an illness

22:13

as a defective character. I

22:15

just I suspected that that was

22:17

what happened and so I wanted

22:20

to ask you about it.

22:22

We're going to take a short

22:24

break and we'll be right back

22:27

with more of the ax

22:29

files. In

22:35

the time it takes us

22:37

to say we're making a

22:39

damn delicious caramel-iced coffee with

22:41

Folger's instant coffee. You know

22:43

we're all about that drizzle.

22:45

You could be savoring every

22:47

sip. Damn right. It's Folger's

22:49

instant. blinds.com cyber

22:51

Monday last chance is happening now.

22:53

Don't miss out on up to

22:55

45% off site wide. A blinds.com

22:57

design expert can help you make

22:59

the perfect selection on your schedule.

23:01

We can handle everything from measure

23:04

to your whole home installed for

23:06

one low cost with over 25

23:08

million windows covered. blinds.com is the

23:10

number one online retailer of custom

23:12

window coverings. Save up to 45%

23:14

site wide plus a free professional

23:16

measure right now at Blinds. Rules

23:18

and restrictions may apply. And

23:25

now back to the show.

23:27

So you married your husband

23:29

Dean, is his name? Yeah,

23:31

Dean, yeah. And you guys

23:33

moved to an exurb of

23:35

Portland, but you opened up

23:37

a auto repair shop in

23:39

Portland, but you got involved

23:41

in local community issues and

23:43

politics. Why? What attracted you

23:45

to that? And I don't

23:47

even know how do I

23:49

pronounce your county there? Oh,

23:51

it's comedians. so Dean, when

23:54

I met Dean, he was

23:56

running a mobile repair shop

23:58

out of the back of

24:00

a van again. And it

24:02

was like a six setup,

24:04

like he had like waste

24:06

oil, he had, you know,

24:08

he had hose reels, he

24:10

had air compressor on the

24:12

roof, it's like pretty solid

24:14

rig. And I started helping

24:16

him. Shortly after we met,

24:18

he started renting space inside

24:20

of a shop. And then,

24:22

you know, when I graduated,

24:25

you know, he needed to

24:27

help with a few things.

24:29

And so I started working

24:31

with him and helping him.

24:33

And then we were actually

24:35

living in a school bus

24:37

and kind of getting chased

24:39

around. Portland with that and

24:41

I knew I wanted to

24:43

live in Washington and I

24:45

a customer by ours actually

24:47

offered to sell us some

24:49

property so we moved the

24:51

school bus out there and

24:54

you know part of why

24:56

I joke that we still

24:58

have our freedoms. And so

25:00

then you got involved in

25:02

the community. Yeah, yeah, so,

25:04

you know, I was, I

25:06

think, look, yeah, looking for

25:08

community and at the time

25:10

I still wasn't going to

25:12

church regularly and started, started

25:14

hanging out a bit at

25:16

the committee county Dems and

25:18

just, you know, meeting neighbors

25:20

and talking to people about

25:23

what was going on and

25:25

our county is It's a

25:27

timber county. It was a

25:29

big producer of timber. Most

25:31

of our, like it's like

25:33

97, or it's a very

25:35

high percentage of our land,

25:37

is owned by the federal

25:39

government. It's national forest. And

25:41

so timber harvest rates and,

25:43

you know, just the health

25:45

of our lumber mills, paper

25:47

mills, very important. And we

25:49

don't have paper mills that's

25:51

right outside of our county,

25:54

but But so yeah, thinking

25:56

about the ways that I

25:58

saw a lack of regard

26:00

for local experience like I

26:02

remember my husband's families is

26:04

you know relatively they're pretty

26:06

liberal and we are like

26:08

driving out to the coast

26:10

and we're going past a

26:12

clear cut and it's like

26:14

somebody was like oh are

26:16

these clear cuts are so

26:18

sad and it's like well

26:20

actually like I think it's

26:23

I don't think it's sad. Like,

26:25

like, I like, I like to

26:28

have housing abundance. Like, I think,

26:30

I think it's sad when people

26:32

are living in mobile homes, you

26:34

know, mobile homes, or their RVs

26:36

parked in the national force. I

26:38

think that's what's sad. Like, I

26:40

think the context, like, You

26:43

know, looking at the fuller picture

26:45

to me was what was like

26:47

motivating. How'd that land with the

26:49

in-laws? Oh, I, you know, they

26:51

were thoughtful, but you know, but,

26:53

you know, it's just a different,

26:55

there's a famous story about Jimmy

26:57

Carter actually flying, he went, flew

26:59

out to see that after the

27:01

Mount St. Helen's explosion, they took

27:03

him in a helicopter out there

27:06

to look at it, and they

27:08

were flying over a clear cut,

27:10

you know. But

27:12

that's the thing. It's like you

27:14

can't look at it from a

27:16

helicopter and know what's going on.

27:18

It's not, you know, you need

27:20

to be like from there. You

27:22

have relationships there. You ran for

27:24

a couple of offices. You ran

27:26

for the county board out there.

27:28

You ran for a utility board

27:31

out there. You lost both those

27:33

elections. And so of course you

27:35

did what anybody would after losing

27:37

two elections for local office. You

27:39

said, I think I'll shoot higher

27:41

and run for Congress. cemetery board

27:43

where you know would have been

27:45

the next you know but I

27:47

saw that like you know I

27:49

really well I love beauties I

27:51

love our public utility we have

27:53

a very cool system in Washington

27:55

State we're right by a lot

27:58

of hydro and I just think

28:00

you know my my degree in

28:02

college is in economics and I

28:04

really love I just think public

28:06

utilities are very interesting. Yeah, some

28:08

of them transform the country. Oh,

28:10

yeah. And our pudies are really

28:12

interesting because the basis, they were

28:14

basically, it was the grain stalls

28:16

that they saw, their lock systems

28:18

were, they were, they were, they're,

28:20

They were getting kind of getting

28:22

shafted by shipping rates on their

28:24

grain. And so they're trying to

28:27

figure out how to get their

28:29

products to market. And they started

28:31

working on locks, it's changing dams,

28:33

it's turning into public power, which

28:35

are putting puties. I think when

28:37

you are really motivated by loyalty

28:39

to where you are and to

28:41

your neighbors, you can do some

28:43

really cool shit. You don't know

28:45

where it's going to go. It's

28:47

going in the right direction if

28:49

it's for your community. But yeah,

28:51

so I, you know, I'd built

28:53

relationships with people from all different

28:56

political stripes and I knew who

28:58

was very religious about putting up

29:00

yard signs and who, and I

29:02

had seen You know, being at

29:04

those county meetings, I had seen

29:06

the local, you know, the Democrats

29:08

for Congress coming before who were

29:10

campaigning and sometimes wearing bow ties,

29:12

you know, just, I mean, I

29:14

would say often unwittingly condescending, you

29:16

know, it was like they were

29:18

doing us a favor by coming

29:20

out there, like they didn't be

29:22

there necessarily. They couldn't say the

29:25

name of the county they were

29:27

in, you know, and I think

29:29

when I went to more urban

29:31

areas, they were sort of like,

29:33

oh, this person's God's gift to

29:35

politics, but I knew that in

29:37

our rural counties, we didn't have

29:39

that experience. We felt like they

29:41

were making the same mistakes that

29:43

every other kind of national politician

29:45

was making. And so I saw,

29:47

I saw after my predecessor, Jamie

29:49

Herr Butler voted to impeach Trump,

29:51

it was like blood in the

29:54

water, like suddenly everybody was coming

29:56

to primary her. And looking at

29:58

all the places that had always

30:00

put up Jamie's yard signs before

30:02

started putting up yard signs for

30:04

Joe Kent. And I was like,

30:06

who's this guy? Because I was

30:08

like, I should, you know, I

30:10

started watching his YouTube. I was

30:12

like, oh my God, he is

30:14

completely out of touch with who

30:16

we are. Where did they find

30:18

this guy? And also- He was

30:21

a veteran, a war veteran, a

30:23

right wing ideologue I think is

30:25

a fair- Yeah, they found him.

30:27

He was from Portland. He was

30:29

living in Portland and they moved

30:31

him out to Yackel. And he

30:33

obviously was an avenging- the event

30:35

you saw it for Trump, you

30:37

know. Yeah, exactly. He ended up

30:39

getting Trump's endorsement and he was

30:41

just saying crazy shit online, like

30:43

we should arrest Fauchy for murder,

30:45

seize Bill Gates, his land, you

30:47

know, we should, citizens should have

30:50

every weapon the US military has.

30:52

He was talking about, he thought,

30:54

like the elections were stolen, culprits,

30:56

our real governor, you know, and

30:58

just just completely. But I also

31:00

saw some of that stuff by

31:02

the way is stuff that people

31:04

in potentially in high government positions

31:06

in the next administration we're saying

31:08

as well but yeah yeah well

31:10

he also had I saw this

31:12

like other specific vulnerability like besides

31:14

from being from Portland was that

31:16

he somebody asked that a Republican

31:19

primary candidate for him to name

31:21

just three lakes in the district

31:23

And we have a lot. And

31:25

he couldn't do it. You know,

31:27

I literally could have said Silver

31:29

Lake, Blue Lake, you know, a

31:31

lava lake. You know, but he

31:33

couldn't do it. And I was

31:35

like, this is somebody who's not

31:37

from here. He's not interested in

31:39

us. You know, he's here for

31:41

a political agenda. And this is

31:43

not an agenda that is oriented

31:45

around our priorities or our values.

31:48

It's imported from somewhere from somewhere

31:50

from somewhere online. And I had

31:52

felt that like, like, you know,

31:54

a Democrat that is not, I

31:56

didn't know if I could win,

31:58

but I knew that I could

32:00

at least challenge the narrative that

32:02

all Democrats are these very like

32:04

urban elite ideologues with know, you

32:06

know, white collar. And I was

32:08

like, no, we work in the

32:10

trades. I live on gravel road.

32:12

Like, I get my internet from

32:14

a radio tower. Like, I pump

32:17

my own gas. Like, you know,

32:19

like, I thought I could challenge

32:21

the cultural narrative that Fox News

32:23

was putting out to my neighbors.

32:25

But the folks in Washington, Washington

32:27

DC. No, I could not get

32:29

a meeting with people in DC

32:31

to save my life. I mean,

32:33

actually, Susan Delvenne was actually the

32:35

only one that endorsed me pre-primary,

32:37

which was great, but it was

32:39

quite difficult to get people to

32:41

see what I was seeing and

32:43

seeing the opportunity and possibility here.

32:46

And the urgency of the situation

32:48

is like, you don't understand, like,

32:50

this guy, is dangerous. Yeah, you

32:52

just beat him again in a

32:54

rematch, which we'll talk about. But

32:56

two things I wanted to ask.

32:58

One is, I read you had

33:00

a bad experience talking to people

33:02

in my old profession, which was

33:04

political consulting. I was embarrassed, but

33:06

not surprised to hear about these

33:08

conversations, but they were, some of

33:10

them were belittling of your, David,

33:13

they chortled at me. Like they

33:15

were, like, Like somebody

33:17

was like one of these consultants

33:19

was like you have an eight

33:21

month old like oh like hope

33:23

you never want to see your

33:26

baby again. Nice. Nice. Yeah. Class

33:28

act. Class act. Yeah. I just

33:30

want you to know in my

33:32

own defense that you can ask

33:35

him when Tom Vilsack was running

33:37

for governor of Iowa 1998 and

33:39

was considered a very long shot

33:41

there were some consultants from Washington

33:44

who were in before me. They

33:46

left. I went in to pitch

33:48

and later Vilsack told me I

33:50

hired you because your shirt tail

33:52

was out. And

33:55

he said, he said, I figured

33:57

there's a guy I can relate

33:59

to. So, but anyway. you you

34:01

you ended up winning the nomination

34:03

winning the race and was it

34:06

liberating to come to Washington having

34:08

not had all these encumbrances having

34:10

not had all of oh for

34:12

sure for sure I was like

34:15

I don't know anybody anything like

34:17

this is my community sent me

34:19

here like like my neighbors brought

34:21

me groceries and doork for me

34:23

you know like this is something

34:26

that is very homegrown and like

34:28

my my loyalty and and you

34:30

know allegiance is like it was

34:32

really it was quite fun it

34:35

is fun talk about the fun

34:37

of it because it seems to

34:39

me like you are the proverbial

34:41

skunk at the garden party in

34:44

some ways I mean, you

34:46

are not, you were one of the

34:48

most independent of Democrats. I mean, you

34:50

had a high level of support for

34:53

Biden, but among Democrats, among the lowest,

34:55

you split with him on student loan

34:57

forgiveness, you've taken a strong position on

34:59

the border, and, you know, and a

35:02

number of other issues. How has that

35:04

worked? How have you... How have you

35:06

navigated that? How have you navigated the

35:08

environment on the other side, which seems

35:11

a little insane right now? That's an

35:13

editorial judgment on my part, but I

35:15

don't think a lot of Republicans over

35:17

there, if you had, if you talked

35:20

to them privately, would disagree with that

35:22

characterization because of the nature of their

35:24

caucus. Tell me what you've learned, what

35:27

you've experienced and what you've learned. Well,

35:29

somebody, actually a Republican colleague was telling

35:31

me about a past, a sermon they

35:33

gave recently where they were talking about,

35:36

you know, everybody thinks about King David

35:38

as like a king, but everybody forgets

35:40

that first he was, first he was

35:42

a musician and then he was a

35:45

shepherd and that like joy is the

35:47

first thing that precedes stewardship and stewardship

35:49

is what is the foundation of like

35:51

actual leadership. you you have

35:54

to have joy

35:56

like you have to

35:58

to have, you have to

36:00

see what is

36:03

good good, is worth

36:05

fighting for for. And that

36:07

is what keeps your head straight. It's

36:10

It's not a commitment to like itself. Like

36:12

that's corrupting. It is joy at what

36:14

is good. is good. And, you know, I

36:16

think really hanging onto that and really

36:19

celebrating what I love about my community

36:21

and getting to, it's crazy, mean, it's crazy.

36:23

Anybody will let you into their living

36:25

room now. I Like I can go

36:27

to any shop floor. I can go go

36:29

to you know, it's know, it's fun. it's fun.

36:31

Like to Like to go to shop classes

36:33

and tell kids tell kids like, Yeah, like the

36:35

congressman wants to meet you because she thinks

36:38

you're cool. she thinks you're cool. Like,

36:40

you know, listening to people

36:42

to people and with with curiosity and

36:44

humility and figuring out out, like,

36:46

what, what, what I do here here? Like, do

36:48

you what do you need like what

36:50

can I do what can I some

36:52

ways. in some ways? the challenge

36:55

for the the Democratic

36:57

Party. words, humility,

36:59

curiosity, it

37:01

seems to me that, you

37:03

know, me what is lacking is

37:05

not is not a Desire to

37:07

be be helpful in the it

37:09

is sort of a respect. that,

37:12

The idea that, yeah, those

37:14

people who make things and

37:16

build things and transport things

37:18

and care for people do

37:20

all these things that actually

37:22

make the country go, they

37:24

deserve our respect. That's

37:26

good work. That's hard work. work.

37:29

You know, isn't that sort of

37:31

the essence of what we're talking

37:33

about here? here? Yeah, I I

37:35

there is not is not think like

37:37

I think respect is sort of at

37:39

the bottom of the pyramid of of needs,

37:41

you know. of human needs,

37:43

you know, and are there are

37:46

There are a few other members here who I feel

37:48

like get it too and are with me in this

37:50

work. like get it to and are with me

37:52

are curious and and

37:54

you know, are curious and

37:56

and respectful of of

37:58

you know, know know, how to

38:01

do things. And it's not

38:03

just that it's not just

38:05

that somebody doesn't

38:07

know how to passly save a

38:09

logging truck, is that they didn't

38:12

care enough to learn. You know,

38:14

it's not the absence of the

38:16

skill, it's the lack of interest

38:18

in learning. That's kind of the

38:20

root, I think, the core of

38:23

the problem. And there was a

38:25

really good book, the art of

38:27

logic in an illogical world. This

38:29

logician talks about taking these cultural

38:31

issues and breaking them down into

38:35

their more fundamental argument. So like,

38:37

you know, with Hunter Biden's laptop,

38:39

it was like, I was getting

38:41

a ton of letters about that.

38:43

And I think when you lift

38:45

open the hood on that, what

38:48

a lot of my constituents were

38:50

saying is that they feel like

38:52

there's a different, there's a different

38:54

justice system if you have money

38:56

and access to power. And that's

38:58

something that Democrats agree of, like

39:00

we want to fix that. and

39:02

so you know I think really

39:05

trying to be trying to understand

39:07

what is the what is the

39:09

moral argument here that you agree

39:11

with like take out like delete

39:13

the celebrity name from it like

39:15

and say like is there a

39:17

part here that we can work

39:20

together on being cured and not

39:22

defensive about it. We're going to

39:24

take a short break and we'll

39:26

be right back with more of

39:28

the ax files. This

39:36

episode is brought to you by Shopify. Forget

39:39

the frustration of picking commerce platforms

39:42

when you switch your business to

39:44

Shopify, the global commerce platform that

39:46

supercharges your selling wherever you sell.

39:48

With Shopify, you'll harness the same

39:50

intuitive features, trusted apps, and powerful

39:52

analytics used by the world's leading

39:54

brands. Sign up today for your

39:56

$1 per month

39:59

trial period at shopify.com/tech,

40:01

all lowercase. That's shopify.com

40:03

slash tech. This episode is brought to

40:05

you by Amazon. The The holidays are

40:08

here and you know what that means? to

40:10

It's time to get your friends and

40:12

family the gifts they deserve. Take Take

40:14

the stress out of shopping with Amazon's

40:16

great deals and low prices a huge a

40:18

huge range of items from toys to

40:20

tech and much more. Whoever you're gifting

40:22

for, Amazon has great prices on everything

40:24

you need this holiday season. Shop Amazon

40:27

for all your gifting needs. needs. and

40:34

that and

41:03

to not to kind of you

41:05

have to hold that center of

41:07

gravity of and you know and

41:10

that's that's what I hear from

41:12

my constituents and part of my

41:14

job is to represent what I'm

41:16

hearing at daycare drop-off you know

41:18

at the grocery store as a

41:20

member of Congress. Speaking of daycare

41:22

drop-off without dignifying the asshole who

41:25

said what he said to you

41:27

about your eight-month-old baby, how hard

41:29

has it been to juggle? You

41:31

live halfway across the country. I

41:33

mean, does your child travel with

41:35

you or? No, no. My husband

41:37

and son are like basically feral,

41:40

like it wouldn't be cruel to

41:42

fright them here. And I don't,

41:44

I mean, DC's like, my, my

41:46

friends are at home, you know,

41:48

my family's at home and I'm

41:50

proud of where I live and

41:52

I chose to live there intentionally.

41:55

But like, you know, like, my

41:57

great, great, great grandparents are buried

41:59

there. Like, you know, it matters.

42:01

me, where I raise my son

42:03

matters to me. And so it

42:05

is difficult, but I also think

42:08

I think there are maybe maybe

42:10

10 members of Congress who have

42:12

a child in daycare out of

42:14

435. And I think it has

42:16

to be to have a representative

42:18

body. Like that is how you

42:20

get agency on things that are

42:23

reflective of the needs of our

42:25

country. you know because it because

42:27

in my county there's one licensed

42:29

daycare facility like we drive like

42:31

four hours a day there and

42:33

back and there and back to

42:35

get our child's daycare and that's

42:38

kind of normal in rural America

42:40

so yeah I think really trying

42:42

to reflect the experience and the

42:44

urgency and the priorities of ordinary

42:46

Americans who are vastly underrepresented in

42:48

Congress and it's like The experience

42:50

of having a child, a young

42:53

child, it's, you know, when the

42:55

well system goes out of daycare,

42:57

like it impacts my family. Just

42:59

like it impacts a lot of

43:01

Americans, right? And so, like having,

43:03

I don't want to be insulated

43:05

from the, I could not, I

43:08

could not do this job well

43:10

without being, while being insulated from

43:12

the friction of, being a parent

43:14

and living in a rural community

43:16

i think it's not i think

43:18

it's a necessary part of doing

43:21

this job but it's it does

43:23

suck being on a plane this

43:25

much sucks i'm sure yeah i'm

43:27

sure honestly it that should be

43:29

true i mean as i asked

43:31

the question i'm sensitive to the

43:33

fact that it should be it

43:36

should suck for the men who

43:38

get on planes to have young

43:40

kids uh... so let's just note

43:42

that in reading about you one

43:44

of the things that struck me

43:46

was that it was cool that

43:48

You know, Democratic Party has become

43:51

a very secular party and in

43:53

many ways. And the fact that

43:55

you could have these colloquies with

43:57

your colleagues and you're, I guess,

43:59

part of the. there but that

44:01

you can they quote scripture and

44:03

you quote scripture back does that

44:06

surprise them? I I yeah I

44:08

think it does I think it's

44:10

it's been it's been really important

44:12

for me to have like you

44:14

know I go to the Bible

44:16

study because I need more Jesus

44:18

not because I need more politics

44:21

but I think it's really damaging

44:23

to the whole of dialogue when

44:25

it's like when it becomes one-sided.

44:27

You know, like when we were

44:29

debating the farm bill, somebody quoted

44:31

a Republican quoted Corinthians where they

44:33

say like, he who doesn't work

44:36

won't eat first Corinthians. And I

44:38

was like, yeah, well, Leviticus also

44:40

says not to harvest the corners

44:42

of your fields, you leave it

44:44

for the widows and the orphans

44:46

and the bastards. There was a

44:49

system in place. and

44:51

you got to look at the

44:53

whole thing and not not to

44:55

use it but to be used

44:57

by it. Do you think that

45:00

the secular nature of a lot

45:02

of democratic politics and I want

45:04

to make a look there's a

45:06

there are all kinds of pockets

45:09

of deep religiosity within the party

45:11

but generally the So I don't

45:13

want to make created caricature. There

45:15

is this, it is a more

45:18

secular party. The voters are more

45:20

secular. Is that another thing that

45:22

divides the party from the 90%

45:24

of the counties in the country

45:27

that went the other way? Leaving

45:29

aside the oddity that Trump is

45:31

the sort of least, I mean

45:33

I always joke that he's he's

45:36

broken 11 of the 10 commandments

45:38

so he's not exactly a you

45:40

know persuasive exponent but leave all

45:42

of that aside but it does

45:45

go to the sort of respect

45:47

curiosity understanding thing doesn't it? It

45:49

does and it's like I also

45:51

think it's just a fool's errand

45:54

to ask people to choose between

45:56

their faith and their politics. I'm

45:58

a proud Democrat I also like

46:00

a Christian and it is a

46:03

mistake to, they're not in conflict.

46:05

And holding both of those things

46:07

and being a whole person in

46:09

either context, I'm a Democrat at

46:12

church, I'm a Christian in our

46:14

party, and I think they are

46:16

separate things, right? You know, but

46:18

I think they're definitely mutually informative,

46:21

should be. Yeah, I mean, one

46:23

of the things, just to be

46:25

fair about this, one of the

46:27

things that is insidious is the

46:30

weaponization of faith on the other

46:32

side, the idea that your political

46:34

choice is a, you know, a

46:36

matter of loyalty to the faith.

46:39

In the, you know, I've had

46:41

long talks with Tim Alberta, my

46:43

friend who writes for the Atlantic,

46:45

who wrote a book called The

46:48

Kingdom of Power and the Glory.

46:50

His father, it was an evangelical

46:52

pastor, and he wrote a book

46:54

about the sort of political capture

46:57

of the evangelical church, and that's

46:59

a whole nother issue that is

47:01

troubling. But let me ask you

47:03

a question as a Latina. One

47:06

of the other things that happens

47:08

is we've become so absorbed in

47:10

identity and the assumption among some

47:12

liberals in the party is that

47:15

if you're Hispanic and The Hispanic

47:17

communities are very diverse. That's the

47:19

first mistake. So, but secondly, if

47:21

you're Hispanic, that immigration has to

47:24

be the sort of organizing issue

47:26

in your mind where you have

47:28

Hispanic families like other families who

47:31

are second, third, fourth generation, they're

47:33

working class American. Yeah. Yeah, I

47:35

mean, look, like, we own small

47:37

businesses in the trades. That's the

47:40

reality. And we're proud of it,

47:42

you know, in the same way

47:44

that, like, respect is necessary, not

47:46

like a prescriptive, like, paternalistic, like,

47:49

we're doing this because, you know,

47:51

need our help. No, like you

47:53

should do it because you think

47:55

it's the right thing to do.

47:58

And you doing it because you're,

48:00

you know, when people, when people

48:02

say stuff like, oh, like Democrats

48:04

are for the little guy, it's

48:07

like, nobody asked you to call

48:09

me the little guy asshole. Okay,

48:11

don't put me in your hierarchy

48:13

that way. Don't, like, you know,

48:16

you do what you think is

48:18

right. And I'm going to do

48:20

what I think is right. And

48:22

don't tell me I owe you

48:25

a favor because you did what

48:27

you think is right. But yeah,

48:29

I mean, I think that's the

48:31

thing. It's like this shift in,

48:34

I think, what was it, like

48:36

46% of Hispanics voted for Trump?

48:38

55% of Hispanic men. Yeah. And

48:40

I think a lot of it

48:43

is the respect, like, I don't

48:45

need your help, I need you

48:47

to respect me. And maybe take

48:49

an interest and listen to what

48:52

I have to say and understand

48:54

my life and my concerns. You

48:56

know, one example here is like,

48:58

I think it's actually a pretty

49:01

impoverished idea of equity that you

49:03

have achieved equity by having lawyer

49:05

gobbledygook that you need to navigate

49:07

to run a small business translated

49:10

into eight different languages. If I

49:12

still need a lawyer to run

49:14

a small business in this country,

49:16

you haven't done it. That's not

49:19

it, pal. And so saying, like,

49:21

where, like, are you, are you

49:23

respecting people enough to meet them

49:25

where they are? Yeah. What is

49:28

your best advice? to a party

49:30

that is now or should be

49:32

engaged in some soul searching about

49:34

how to reconnect with the constituencies

49:37

that it believes it represents? I

49:39

think curiosity is is deeply necessary

49:41

and not in an anthropological sense,

49:43

but in a like, what do

49:46

they know that I don't know?

49:48

like showing up and and being like like

49:51

go to the shop floor and bring your

49:53

boots you know and and bringing that that

49:55

version empathy, the the that

49:57

shows up, that physically

50:00

shows up and listens

50:02

up and listens and and stop stop

50:04

people what you think what

50:06

you need, they know. you know

50:09

and it's not it's not

50:11

that you're going there

50:13

to to do someone to do

50:15

something, you know, you're trying to

50:17

figure out, out you need to need to figure

50:19

out is is important to people and how

50:21

how do we get there? Well,

50:23

listen, I wanted to speak with you

50:25

because I had some sense of

50:28

how you're thinking. And I I hope a

50:30

lot of people listen to this

50:32

podcast to they could learn a lot

50:34

from you. a lot from you. And this has has

50:36

been a great hour. to I'm so

50:38

happy to have spent it with you.

50:40

Thank you so much. is Thank you.

50:42

This was really fun. I really

50:44

appreciate the chance to talk and meet.

50:46

and meet. hopefully in person next. We

50:48

love that. We love Thank you. you. Thank

50:53

you for listening to the to

50:55

The Axe brought to you by

50:57

the Institute of Politics at the

50:59

University of Chicago and CNN

51:01

Audio. and The executive producer of

51:04

the show is of the show is Miriam Fender

51:06

The show is also produced

51:08

by produced by Serelina Barry, Jeff and Hannah

51:10

Grace Hannah Grace And special thanks to

51:12

our partners at CNN, including

51:14

Steve including Thomas. For more

51:16

programming from more visit from

51:19

the IOP, visit .edu. Yeah.