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From Fear to Trust: Transforming Dog Grooming with Christine Neumeyer-Smith

From Fear to Trust: Transforming Dog Grooming with Christine Neumeyer-Smith

Released Monday, 16th September 2024
Good episode? Give it some love!
From Fear to Trust: Transforming Dog Grooming with Christine Neumeyer-Smith

From Fear to Trust: Transforming Dog Grooming with Christine Neumeyer-Smith

From Fear to Trust: Transforming Dog Grooming with Christine Neumeyer-Smith

From Fear to Trust: Transforming Dog Grooming with Christine Neumeyer-Smith

Monday, 16th September 2024
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Episode Transcript

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0:00

Dogs love me . Just hold on to his foot while

0:02

he screams . He'll settle down .

0:04

This episode is for all you groomers out there

0:06

, or anyone that grooms their own

0:08

dog , which is just about everyone

0:10

who has , well , a dog . Christine

0:13

Neumeyer-Smith joins me for this episode and

0:15

we chat about all the considerations to take

0:18

to help dogs become more comfortable

0:20

with grooming , especially if they

0:22

have a history of aggression and any

0:24

type of handling or husbandry situation

0:26

. Christine is a master groomer

0:28

behavior specialist , certified professional

0:30

groomer , certified behavior consultant

0:32

for canines , certified professional

0:35

dog trainer and fear-free certified

0:37

groomer and trainer . Her

0:39

journey began in 1986 during an

0:41

internship for the Essex Agricultural

0:43

and Technical Institute Animal Science

0:46

Program , where she discovered her passion

0:48

for training and grooming . In 2000

0:50

, she founded Happy Critters offering

0:52

house call grooming , in-home

0:54

training and behavior consulting . As

0:57

an instructor at the Hall Pet Grooming Academy

0:59

, she teaches the Master Groomer Behavior

1:01

Specialist Program online course

1:03

, the Master Groomer Behavior Specialist Program

1:05

online course . Christine

1:09

has been hosting the Creating Great Grooming Dogs podcast since 2018 and speaks

1:11

at grooming conferences and summits , and if you are

1:13

enjoying the bitey end of the dog , you can support the podcast

1:15

by going to aggressivedogcom

1:17

, where there's a variety of resources to learn

1:19

more about helping dogs with aggression issues

1:21

, including the upcoming Aggression and

1:23

Dogs Conference happening from October

1:26

11th to 13th 2024

1:28

in Scottsdale , arizona , with

1:30

both in-person and online options

1:32

. You can also learn more about the Aggression

1:34

and Dogs Master Course , which is

1:36

the most comprehensive course available anywhere

1:38

in the world for learning how to work with and

1:40

help dogs with aggression issues . I

1:42

also have a wide variety of webinars , upcoming

1:45

courses , videos and articles , all

1:48

from the foremost experts in training and

1:50

behavior . We

1:58

are your one-stop shop for all things related to aggression in dogs

2:00

. Hey

2:04

, everyone , welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog . This week we have a topic that we haven't talked about on this podcast before

2:06

. It has to do with grooming dogs and

2:08

all of the considerations we should be taking not

2:10

only from the grooming side , but also

2:12

the behavior and training side . So

2:14

I'm really excited to have Chrissy Neumeier-Smith join

2:17

us this week . Welcome , chrissy .

2:18

Thank you so much for having me .

2:20

Let's dive right in here . I would

2:23

like to know what got you into grooming

2:25

and training , because that's sort of an interesting

2:27

dual role where there's not

2:29

a lot of trainers that do both and not a lot of groomers

2:31

that do both . So what got you into that side

2:33

of things ?

2:34

So I went to high school for agriculture

2:37

and animal science and we were required to

2:39

have a summer job internship

2:41

and I got one at a boarding kennel . So

2:43

I was working as a kennel tech and

2:49

during my lunch breaks I was watching the groomers and fell in love with it , and then I'd stay after

2:51

work and hang out for the dog training stuff and ride my

2:53

bike home . Both of those things just

2:55

grabbed me from the very beginning .

2:58

Nice and that kind of bloomed into

3:00

what you have going on now , which are teaching

3:02

trainers and groomers all over the world

3:04

right Through your online offerings .

3:05

Yeah , yeah , which is pretty exciting .

3:08

That's amazing and we were kind of talking too about

3:10

sometimes between industries or between

3:13

professions . So we have , like , the veterinary

3:15

profession and the trainers and groomers

3:17

. Sometimes there can be a little bit of conflict

3:20

in the information and

3:22

what beliefs are around behavior

3:25

and training especially . So what

3:27

are some issues you're seeing Because you have the trainer's

3:30

eyes as well as the groomer's eyes , so

3:32

let's kind of look at both angles From

3:34

a grooming lens , your groomer's

3:36

eyes . What issues do you typically see

3:38

that's happening or kind of with the training

3:40

side and this communication between

3:43

industries ?

3:44

So I would say that a lot of these terms

3:46

that we use don't sync up

3:48

and dog groomers if they

3:51

say an e-collar , they're talking an Elizabethan collar

3:53

. You know trainers

3:55

, when they say an e-collar , they're talking about something

3:57

entirely different . So some of our terms

4:00

don't match up . Groomers tend to use terms

4:02

like holistic grooming . Trainers tend

4:04

to use things like cooperative care . I

4:06

am trying to get more groomers to buy

4:08

into the idea that cooperative care is really what

4:10

we're looking for , but even just the

4:13

words that we use . But

4:15

I feel that there are a lot of places

4:17

where there are some gaps and each

4:20

field doesn't really know what the

4:22

other one is doing . Non-groomers

4:25

think they know what grooming is and they really don't

4:27

. You might have some blind spots and

4:29

non-trainers think that they know what training is

4:31

. You know like well , what would an obedience

4:33

class do to help this dog ? But training

4:36

is so much more than obedience classes .

4:50

So , from a groomer's point of view , they might not even think to go to a trainer because they don't

4:52

know what kind of options are available to them , yeah , and vice versa . You're kind of seeing the

4:54

same thing from the trainer's perspective and it's again sort of a lost in translation kind of communication

4:56

issue . It sounds like .

4:57

I think so . I think so . When

4:59

a trainer gives an owner instructions

5:02

and then the owner gives the groomer

5:04

instructions , they're playing telephone

5:06

, you know , and it does it . The context is

5:08

off , and often the groomer doesn't have

5:10

the background to understand or how to

5:12

implement the instructions

5:15

that have been given , and so of course , they think these are ridiculous

5:17

. I can't do that while I groom . So

5:19

, you know , there's there's a lot of barriers that

5:21

don't need to be there .

5:23

Yeah . So let's kind of dive into some examples

5:25

of that , because as a trainer , you know

5:27

when I think about okay , if I've got a dog that has an issue

5:29

with grooming , I'm going to do some counter conditioning

5:32

. Maybe I'll use something like a distraction technique

5:34

. I use some consent-based training or

5:36

cooperative care and teach the client how to do . Maybe

5:42

the dog teaches a chin rest at home , or something like that . Where are the problematic

5:44

areas of that that you're seeing in that translation

5:46

? Is it because it takes so much time or

5:48

the skill sets ? What issues are you seeing

5:50

there ?

5:51

Oh , it's such a great question . You

5:53

even mentioned like chin targets , nose targets

5:55

, things like that . The problem for

5:57

groomers is that there's nobody watching

6:00

the dog's head , and it's one

6:02

of the most common things that we find frustrating

6:04

. As a groomer , you are one-on-one

6:06

with that dog and you are trying

6:08

to do something on a back foot and

6:10

literally cannot see if that dog is holding a

6:12

nose target or a chin target or

6:15

staring at the bucket or doing some

6:17

other start button behavior . So

6:19

some of those start button behaviors aren't

6:22

a reality in the grooming shop unless

6:24

we now have two people and

6:26

are charging for two people worth of work

6:28

and trying to help more groomers understand

6:30

that that's a great procedure

6:33

to work toward not

6:35

needing it later . So

6:37

sometimes groomers are being told

6:39

okay , and you'll need a clicker and you'll need

6:41

treats , but as a dog groomer , if

6:44

you are working with a dog , it's so common'll need treats , but as a dog groomer , if you are working with a dog , it's so

6:46

common . I'll use an example . A

6:48

dog groomer might be drying a dog's front leg

6:51

and they've got the nozzle of the dryer under

6:53

their left armpit . They're holding the dog's

6:55

foot with their left hand . They've got a comb

6:57

in between the fingers of their left hand because

6:59

they're switching out from the brush in their right hand

7:01

to the comb and somebody tells them they need

7:04

cookies and a clicker and they're like I'm

7:06

already doing three hands worth of work

7:09

and their frustration

7:11

gets there and they don't understand the why

7:13

. They don't understand that these are approximations

7:16

toward a dog that you can do

7:18

all of that with . I

7:21

hope that answers your question .

7:22

Definitely , definitely . So , besides

7:24

shape-shifting into an octopus where you

7:26

have like eight arms , where you can hold all these

7:29

different things . What are some

7:31

things that you're seeing that do work well , translating

7:33

from the trainers recommending something

7:36

, or teams where you've seen trainers working

7:38

with somebody that needs help in the grooming . What are some

7:40

types of techniques that you do see

7:42

work well ?

7:44

What I think works really well is if a trainer

7:46

is talking to an owner about

7:48

working on things at home and understanding

7:51

the context that they're going to be used in , and

7:53

then the groomer has this dog , who the

7:56

owners are already all set with the idea that

7:58

we don't need to complete a trim today

8:00

, we don't need to complete nail trimming

8:02

today , that they're working cooperatively

8:04

, that not just with the dog

8:06

, but the groomer and the trainer are also

8:09

on board with . Let's help this

8:11

dog have a better experience

8:13

today and let go of the grooming

8:15

outcomes , and

8:18

that works really well .

8:20

And can you think of some actual

8:22

techniques that we might be doing ? And

8:24

can you think of some actual techniques

8:26

that we might be doing ? Let's

8:31

use an example a dog that needs , let's say , ear cleaning or something like that , and the dog has an aversion

8:33

to that . But let's

8:36

say it's something we need to kind of get done . It's kind of

8:38

more urgent on that side of things . What

8:40

do you see , for example , in that regard

8:42

that a trainer can work with at home and be like , okay

8:44

, we're going to do this at home with the client and then it's going

8:46

to translate well to the grooming experience without the

8:48

trainer or the owner there .

8:50

You know , I think what works really well for something

8:52

like that is that the owners understand that

8:54

when they're at home they're trying

8:57

to incrementally help this dog feel

8:59

more comfortable with the types of touching

9:01

, because that does translate to others

9:03

and maybe they've been going

9:05

to this groomer for a while . You know , maybe this is not

9:08

a new stranger , but that's part of what groomers

9:10

face . Groomers don't live with these dogs , so

9:12

if they have this dog come in

9:15

, that is , they've been working on doing something

9:17

around the ears . Now , if the groomer

9:19

knows , oh , I'm going to continue on

9:21

with the kind of training you've been doing

9:23

at home , if that communication

9:25

happens , you know , and maybe that

9:27

is just ear touches and lifting

9:30

the ear up and then seeing how the

9:32

dog handles things , like , okay , now we're going to put a

9:34

cotton ball , and now we're going to put a cotton

9:36

ball near your ear and in your ear and all those

9:38

little minute . You know things that

9:40

we do as trainers for a groomer . If they

9:42

don't understand the why , that can be really frustrating

9:44

, but

9:49

it is for our owners too .

9:50

And if we think about groomers as a different , type of owner

9:52

that can be really helpful for us . So it sounds like , in a sense , if

9:55

we're going to look at sort of the techniques involved

9:57

and what you're explaining there

9:59

. In my mind , let's desensitize

10:01

the dog a little bit more at home . So not any

10:03

particular behavior expectation

10:05

like contingency on a particular behavior

10:07

to do this . In that context , versus

10:10

, I'm just going to get you used to people

10:12

touching your ears so that way

10:14

when you get to the groomers or vets it's more

10:17

likely somebody could touch your ears , so you're

10:19

a little bit more acclimated

10:21

to that , rather than I want you to

10:23

do X , Y or Z behavior when

10:25

somebody's about to touch your ears . Does that kind

10:27

of make sense ?

10:28

Yeah , to normalize the kind of touching

10:30

that groomers are going to do , because

10:33

we have lots of different equipment and

10:35

it's hard for an owner to be able to use

10:38

that types of equipment . But what if we just

10:40

start off by normalizing all

10:42

of those touches being touched all over ? And

10:44

it's almost like when we as dog trainers tell

10:46

people yeah , he doesn't do it

10:49

on a walk , but he can do it in your

10:51

kitchen , and that's a good start . Can

10:53

he do it in your kitchen , can he do it in your living

10:55

room , can he do it in your driveway , you

10:57

know ? And to build up incrementally towards

11:00

something that looks like a grooming

11:02

shop environment or a grooming environment

11:04

, because not all groomers are grooming shops . We have

11:06

vans , we have house call , we have lots

11:08

of different grooming setups .

11:10

And so next steps to that ? So

11:12

let's say we have a very dedicated

11:14

pet guardian , for instance , and

11:16

they're into training , they're more into behavior

11:18

. What would be next steps ? So we've

11:21

got working on desensitization , we're getting the

11:23

dog used to the equipment you're mentioning and

11:25

some handling . Are there any sort

11:28

of next steps , tangible behaviors , that you might

11:30

put into place ?

11:31

So I think if you are a trainer

11:34

and you're super into cooperative care , I

11:36

would like you to consider the idea

11:38

that instead of nose targeting , chin

11:40

targeting and the bucket game things

11:42

that are pretty common To move that into

11:45

cooperative care and your consent

11:47

, your start button behavior is

11:49

if the dog is relaxed under your hand . That's

11:53

what I use as a start button behavior and that's

11:55

what I'm teaching groomers Can you open your

11:57

hand and is that dog still staying

11:59

there and relaxing into you

12:01

? And to transition to that

12:03

, because groomers can feel that while we

12:05

work Maybe not all the time , but

12:07

most of the time we can feel if a dog is

12:09

tense or not .

12:11

So when you say can you describe that a little bit more ?

12:13

So you say , open your hand , and are you placing your hand

12:15

on a certain area or yeah , Can

12:17

I hold your ear and not feel like I have

12:19

to physically control the

12:22

dog from moving ? Can I hold

12:24

a foot and open my palm and

12:26

have that foot stay there ? These

12:28

are ways that we can have consent in grooming

12:30

that a groomer can actually feel . Can I lift

12:33

your tail ? Can I manipulate

12:35

your body , move you into different poses

12:37

, put equipment near you and

12:40

have you stay loose .

12:42

Can you describe a little bit more how somebody would teach

12:44

that at home ? Let's say , you've got some listeners

12:46

in and they're like that sounds great , Chrissy , but how

12:48

do I go ? About doing that .

12:50

And the way to do that is you want to

12:52

start off when your dog is already pretty chill

12:55

and get working on touching them

12:57

all over , and if they start to

12:59

stiffen , that's your signal that

13:01

you've maybe gone too far . And how do

13:03

we expand that bubble ? How do we make

13:05

this enjoyable for your pet to be touched

13:07

all over , to casually lift their

13:09

feet up with us , because that

13:11

will translate to what

13:13

they need to do in a grooming setting ? I

13:16

think that answers your question .

13:18

Yeah , and when you say you had mentioned

13:20

earlier , they kind of push into your hand and I can kind

13:22

of picture my own dog when she wants to be pet

13:25

more . She does the whole hand nudging thing . But

13:28

yeah , she gets very comfortable about kind

13:30

of leaning into the space , my space

13:32

, as you were mentioning . Is that what you mean by

13:34

that ?

13:34

Yeah , yeah . Or if they're trying to

13:36

pull away . You know I don't

13:38

want dogs pulling away and I

13:40

think a lot of people don't realize if you've never

13:42

really watched grooming . All of our tools

13:45

can hurt a dog . We

13:47

are literally using sharp tools on

13:49

wiggly creatures . So sometimes

13:51

people are like , can't you just use the hair clippers

13:53

instead of scissors ? And I'm like , yes , but those

13:55

can hurt a dog too . So at

13:58

every step we're trying to keep that dog

14:00

what I tell my listeners calm , comfortable

14:03

and cooperative . That's our goal through

14:05

all of it . It should be about as interesting

14:07

as watching paint dry . And so

14:09

if we talk to our owners about , like

14:11

, get them used to touching all over , you

14:13

know it doesn't even need to be with a brush , it doesn't

14:16

need to be with a tool . What if

14:18

we just get them all loosey-goosey

14:20

? You know tech

14:25

talk loosey-goosey and used to like , oh , someone's messing with my ear , someone's lifting up

14:27

my tail , someone's looking at my dew claws , someone's going to look at my

14:29

teeth , and that translates well

14:31

to the veterinary too .

14:33

Yeah , and I will second

14:36

the notion of things can hurt , because going

14:39

to the barber there's nothing worse than a dull

14:41

pair of clippers on the side of your head . But

14:44

I can say something to the barber the dogs

14:46

have to communicate through body language

14:48

or sometimes , aggression . If it hurts , so

14:51

yeah , it's so . Now

14:53

, when you're talking about that , are you pairing

14:55

reinforcement with it as well ? So let's

14:57

say we start teaching start buttons

14:59

or like the dog giving consent , leaning

15:01

into my hand . You then say great , and then reinforce

15:04

that in the home environment Because

15:06

we'll talk about food in the grooming environment more in just

15:08

a moment . But what about at home ? It's like , how

15:10

do you teach that , or reinforce that

15:12

, I should say .

15:15

I think it's going to depend on what that dog is

15:17

comfortable with and if it's getting

15:19

used to something new or if it's working

15:22

with a fear of something they've already been exposed

15:24

to , and those are two separate problems

15:26

that we see pretty commonly in dog grooming . The

15:28

dog that has no experience the dog

15:31

that has no experience might not need cookies

15:33

. They might just be like what's this , what's

15:35

happening ? Okay . But the dog who

15:37

has some fears , there's nothing wrong with using

15:39

cookies and stuff at home , maybe a clicker

15:42

, maybe just reward markers . What

15:44

I find translates later in grooming

15:46

is if they are not using

15:49

cookies at home and it starts turning into

15:51

like oh , this just feels good .

15:53

So even just the tactile feedback

15:55

or the relationship with the

15:57

client can really matter . Speaking

16:00

of which , how do you see that play

16:02

out ? Sometimes we have a dog that's like okay , I trust

16:04

you , I trust you as my guardian , I'll lean into

16:06

you , I can totally be fine

16:08

with you touching me . What about the dogs

16:10

? That it doesn't translate well to strangers or

16:12

a groomer or somebody else , like only

16:15

my person can do that kind of stuff to me

16:17

, not you . Do you see that happen ?

16:19

That happens quite a bit and

16:26

what many groomers are trying to do to address that is to set up

16:28

meet and greets . You know , maybe this dog is a new customer for

16:30

us , or a new dog to that owner , or

16:33

a new puppy , but a meet and greet like let's

16:35

just get you used to us because

16:37

the difference between a stranger is going

16:39

to give me a bath or my new

16:42

weird friend is going to give me a bath can

16:44

be a huge difference . So for us

16:46

to think about that in terms of

16:48

all right , well , you've done a lot of work at home , and

16:50

how can we transfer that to other

16:53

people , other trusted people

16:55

?

16:55

Maybe that's not going to be every person

16:57

, but that could be a particular

16:59

groomer Do you find it translates

17:02

well , if that pet guardian has some

17:04

friends , come over other family members to

17:06

help practice with this . Okay , Uncle Bob , come over

17:08

and we're going to have you do a little bit of touching

17:10

ears , and as long as the dog again is

17:13

showing consent for that .

17:15

Perhaps I'm not really sure . I

17:17

haven't tried that because I'm a little bit worried about

17:19

someone trying to have a

17:21

helpful friend come over and maybe

17:23

overwhelm their dog , you know .

17:25

Yeah , I think it would matter a lot on who

17:28

is doing it . Yeah , yeah , because .

17:29

Next thing , you know , you've got that friend who's like dogs

17:31

. Love me . Just hold onto his foot while he screams

17:34

. He'll settle down , you know .

17:36

And undo a whole lot of work . Exactly

17:39

, exactly .

17:41

But owners can do a lot and

17:55

especially if they're thinking in terms of this , is to help our dogs feel

17:57

comfortable . This is to help our dog feel good . Dogs are going to have , if they

17:59

have a 15 year lifespan , they're going to have grooming once in their life . This

18:01

is for 15 years and

18:04

if we can work on it in the beginning

18:06

, that comfort level and trust

18:08

carries through the whole time

18:10

.

18:11

Yeah , and what would you recommend then , since

18:13

we're on that topic , let's say , pet

18:15

guardian listening in at home . Now they just got their

18:17

eight-week puppy , 10-week-old

18:20

puppy , and what would be some of your

18:22

top recommendations ? Like , start doing

18:24

this now . Again , let's

18:26

face it , they're getting all kinds of information and we got to

18:28

socialize , we got to be careful with

18:30

vaccinations , like they're all kinds of information

18:33

and so they're like oh , now I got to think about

18:35

grooming . So if you were to

18:37

really have an elevator pitch of like this , start

18:39

this now , because that's really going to help with the grooming aspect

18:42

.

18:47

If you have a puppy , if you went to a breeder for a puppy , that puppy has probably already

18:49

started learning about grooming processes . We want that super , super early

18:51

. It is part of socialization and

18:54

even though they haven't had their full

18:56

set of vaccines , talk to your veterinarian

18:58

about the idea that a meet and

19:00

greet in a grooming shop isn't

19:02

about socializing with other dogs . You

19:05

know they aren't going to be putting them with other dogs , but

19:07

a lot of groomers are doing what we call

19:09

a meet and greet Maybe it's 10 , 15

19:12

minutes , maybe 20 , where they bring that puppy

19:14

in . Puppy gets cuddled by a whole bunch

19:16

of new people , is exposed

19:18

to a grooming setting , hears things

19:20

like dryers , see dogs getting wet and

19:24

is exposed to the things that

19:26

they're gonna need for their whole life , much

19:28

like we would expose them to cars

19:30

and kids . And

19:33

it's really an essential part of an early education

19:36

for these dogs .

19:37

Do you find a lot of groomers offering that service now

19:39

? It seems like it would be a great , not only

19:42

service for the puppies but marketing

19:44

really . Like come in and check out the shop and , yeah

19:47

, you can come in free , socialize your puppy

19:49

and then we'll see you as a customer for the rest of the

19:51

dog's life , right ? Yeah , do you see that's a standard

19:54

kind of a standard practice or needs to happen more .

19:56

It is really becoming a standard practice . There's a

19:58

lot of interest in behavior in the grooming

20:00

realm and

20:05

a lot of groomers are trying to get owners to bring the pups in for like a couple little

20:07

sessions that don't involve a bath and maybe that first grooming

20:09

session is a minimal , like

20:11

we're going to get you wet . Maybe we don't even wet your

20:13

head , but we're going to get you wet , get you a little

20:15

soapy , get you used to things . It's

20:18

actually becoming pretty common practice and

20:20

sometimes they're selling those as a package . You

20:22

know , like okay , your puppy package

20:24

is going to include three of these little shortened

20:27

visits . We're going to get your puppy used to

20:29

the kind of things that they're going to need to know as

20:31

an adult .

20:32

Oh , that's fantastic . That's good to hear because I hadn't

20:35

realized that , but that's good to hear that that

20:37

trend is taking off in not only the grooming

20:39

world but also the veterinary world . The

20:47

veterinary world Now , from the grooming standpoint . What questions would you ask to the pet guardians

20:49

? What groomers should ask the pet guardians ? Some

20:51

tips for the groomers listening in .

20:54

So I have four questions that I want groomers

20:56

to ask , or really anybody who's working with animals

20:58

to ask owners to try to get a feel for

21:01

how their dog might respond to things

21:03

, and I tell these to everybody who will

21:05

listen

21:07

. But the first question is what does your dog

21:09

do if he doesn't like something ? And

21:12

this is before we've had any behavior issue . This

21:14

is before we even meet the dog . What does your dog

21:16

do if he doesn't like something ? And you

21:18

might need to give them some prompts . They might be like

21:21

what kind of things ? Well , what does he do if he's left

21:23

alone in a room ? What does he do if you turn on

21:25

the vacuum cleaner and then they

21:27

start thinking about it and tell us what he does

21:29

? Question two is what does

21:31

your dog do if they don't like something you're doing

21:33

to them on their physical body

21:35

? And now an owner is in a

21:37

position to tell us a story where

21:40

we can get data . So they tell us a

21:42

story about something like that and you might need

21:44

to prompt them . You might need to say wiping

21:46

him down when he comes in from the rain , trying

21:49

to look in his ear , trying to pull something

21:51

out of his fur and give them some

21:53

prompts and maybe they're like you know what ? I

21:55

can't think of anything . He's great for everything

21:57

. But because we're not waiting until

21:59

it's a behavior problem and we're using these to

22:01

assess the owners are

22:03

very open about it and they're coming

22:05

up with that storytelling and seeing the bigger picture

22:08

. Then question three is

22:10

what does he do if you don't stop ? And

22:13

most of our owners say what I

22:15

mean he put his teeth on me . Why would ? Why , of course

22:17

I stopped , you know . And so

22:19

we don't really know what a dog would do if they don't stop

22:22

. Or maybe they have continued and

22:24

pressed on forward . But that also tells

22:26

us the story of how this dog

22:28

had an issue and how it was addressed

22:30

. And then the fourth question

22:32

is what do you think your dog will

22:35

do when I , as a stranger , don't

22:37

stop ? And

22:39

that's where an owner often says this might

22:41

be a training problem .

22:45

Yeah , I love those because they're general

22:47

enough to really extract the information . I

22:50

use similar questioning when I'm talking

22:52

about aggression cases or with a client with aggression

22:54

case , because sometimes

22:56

you need to ask a much broader

22:59

question . That's going to allow

23:01

for sometimes . Oh yeah , that's right , he also

23:03

does this or she also does that , and

23:06

I love those questions .

23:07

And groomers should be assuming that every dog is

23:09

an aggression case until they prove they're not

23:11

. I would

23:13

rather assume that a dog is going to have difficulty

23:16

at some point in the process and be prepared

23:18

for that than to assume that everything's going

23:20

to go fine . Trainers have

23:22

a blind spot and many

23:25

trainers do which is that we work

23:27

with owners who know that they have a problem

23:29

, recognize that they have a problem and made at

23:31

least one step toward fixing it

23:33

. Groomers work with the full

23:35

range of pets out there , so they

23:37

may have an owner who's like well , of course he's going to try to bite you

23:39

. Dogs hate grooming . That's

23:42

why we brought him to you . So

23:44

this gives us more information for us to

23:47

find out what this dog is really likely

23:49

to do , and then from that conversation

23:52

we can talk to an owner , perhaps

23:54

about this dog sounds like he might

23:57

really hurt somebody , or I'm

23:59

glad he .

24:00

Sounds like he's going to be great and

24:02

that's a conundrum because I was just thinking like , what do you do Like , because some pet guardians

24:05

they can't trim the dog's nails and they're afraid to that . And that's a conundrum because I was just thinking like , what do you do like , because

24:07

some pet guardians , they can't trim

24:09

the dog's nails . So they're afraid to . And you

24:11

know , and there's okay , let's take the

24:13

dog to the groomer because the groomer is going to get it done

24:15

. But what if the groomer's like I'm

24:18

not going to be able to get it done because your dog doesn't want me to

24:20

trim the nail ? So what is ? How do those conversations

24:22

go ? I mean , that must be tough , especially

24:24

from a business standpoint , right ? How

24:26

do you navigate that conversation ?

24:29

That is really tricky . So because

24:31

I do the behavior part also , I

24:34

can talk to them about . You know what I know

24:36

in the past you've probably been able to

24:38

pay for people to just restrain

24:41

your dog and get it done , but

24:43

that's also why you have a seven-year-old

24:45

dog who's still terrified of it , and

24:48

a lot of people don't realize that dogs can

24:50

become injured while things

24:52

like this are happening . You know , the more people you

24:54

add . So I talk to people about let's

24:56

see what we can do about helping them feel better

24:58

about it . But there are lots of different ways

25:00

to handle that conversation . I had a customer

25:03

who was like well , I came to you because you're

25:05

supposed to be some sort of a behavior specialist and

25:07

you know now you're telling me you won't do it and I'm like I

25:09

said I wouldn't do it your way . I

25:11

have options for you . You know like

25:13

there are other things that we can do and it's going to require

25:16

you to buy in . You know , whether

25:18

that be doing some homework or helping

25:20

out or just bringing them in often

25:22

enough , as we've prescribed , so that

25:24

we can say like , hey , just bring them in more often

25:26

, let's go ahead and do this stuff , help

25:28

them feel comfortable with us , help them feel comfortable

25:31

with the touching and then help them feel comfortable

25:33

with the nail trimming , you know , but the

25:35

idea that they want

25:37

it done and they just want us to climb all over

25:39

that dog and get it done and it

25:41

looks like , you know , like a football

25:43

tackle , and that's not cool , that's not okay

25:46

, and it looks like a football tackle and that's not cool , that's not okay

25:48

, yeah , so I'm thinking from a groomer's perspective

25:51

and you have clients that are just

25:53

, they want to get it done .

25:55

And they come to see you and they think , okay

25:57

, chrissy's great , she's going to be able to do this magical behavior

25:59

stuff . But then you tell them about the more the

26:01

planned approach that you'd like to take . And

26:04

they're like all right , forget that , the planned approach that you'd like to take . And

26:06

they're like all right , forget that , I'm just going to go to the other person that just holds

26:08

my dog down and I just get it over with . That must

26:10

just like trainers . We have

26:12

the issue of compassion fatigue . We

26:14

get concerned about that dog because we're

26:16

in it for the dogs as well as the people . But we're

26:18

really worried about that dog that's now going to be subjected

26:21

to an aversive experience . How

26:23

do you navigate that in your own world

26:25

? Or , you know , maybe you've had that insight from other

26:27

groomers as well .

26:28

Absolutely . We talk to them about

26:31

the idea that if your dog learns

26:33

to be comfortable with this , future

26:35

nail trims are all going to be safer . It's

26:38

sad but true . I have

26:40

occasionally shown owners video

26:42

. There's a video up of a dog that dies during a

26:44

nail trim . You

26:52

know it's sad but true . The idea that we'll just put a muzzle on him and then he can't

26:54

bite you . But there are lots of ways to be injured , you know , and so

26:56

sometimes we have to backtrack to like that

26:58

is not safe . I have some safe options

27:00

for you , but that's just not safe . And

27:03

when that dog is in my care and

27:05

I have to choose the safest version

27:07

. But I also tell them in my

27:09

experience if you give

27:11

me three or four sessions

27:14

where I don't have to worry about what gets completed

27:16

nail trim wise , as an example

27:18

, and we just work on behavior give

27:21

me three or four sessions to show you that we can

27:23

have improvement , because sometimes they just don't

27:25

believe that there's a way to improve it .

27:29

How do you cope with it as a groomer

27:31

when you're seeing that , regardless

27:33

of what ? However you try to talk to the client

27:35

, they're just like no , I'm off , I'm

27:38

going to go back to that . And then you see that you

27:40

know you might see it repeatedly too . Sometimes we

27:42

as trainers , we see these strings of cases that

27:45

they end up going to somebody that's promising

27:47

a quick fix but it does nothing to help

27:49

that dog feel better in that situation . How

27:51

do you , chrissy , cope with that

27:53

?

27:54

Yeah , it breaks my heart . It

27:57

makes me feel like I didn't effectively

28:00

help that owner understand the problem

28:02

. You know it doesn't happen very often

28:05

, but every once in a while , and usually it's not another

28:07

groomer , it's when the veterinarian has told

28:09

them like don't worry about it , just bring him in , we

28:11

will have the techs climb all over him and do

28:14

it . You know , like usually it's

28:16

it's . People don't usually bump

28:18

my opinion for other groomers or other trainers

28:20

. It's usually like , well , the vet said and I'm like

28:22

but we have these other options

28:24

. But also to be able to say in

28:26

my experience , I can

28:28

teach your dog to be much better for this . They may

28:31

never love it , but I can teach a

28:33

healthy dog to be a safe dog .

28:35

Yeah , do you have any advice for

28:37

newer groomers ? Because it sounds like you're seasoned

28:40

and you also have the benefit of

28:42

being who you are and so you

28:45

sort of like what I do is you have already

28:47

the credibility , so kind of what you say

28:49

resonates . It's more likely to resonate with

28:51

people that know your reputation . Do you

28:53

have any advice for the newer groomers out there and

28:55

this would resonate with trainers as well when

28:57

you're experiencing these

28:59

cases where , okay , here's a dog that's

29:02

just going back to the old handling

29:04

and rough handling situation and

29:06

you start to see that over and over and it starts to

29:08

affect you emotionally . What

29:10

is your advice to the new groomers in the field ? They're seeing

29:12

that and they're getting burnt out because they keep seeing that

29:14

and they're trying to follow the model

29:17

you're demonstrating .

29:19

You know , I think the way to start

29:21

that is if you're brand new and you don't

29:23

have your own case study yet , you don't have

29:25

your miraculous transformation story

29:28

of your own , but to say I

29:30

know that this makes it

29:32

worse . I know

29:35

that holding this dog down and doing

29:37

it while they scream even though

29:39

nail trims are very important I

29:41

know that this will make it

29:43

worse and that can be the

29:45

little nugget that you hold on to and you're like listen

29:48

, there are things that we don't do because

29:50

we know it'll make it worse . You know it

29:52

can be hard to figure out the various ways to

29:55

explain things to an owner , but

29:57

I tell my owners too , like what I tell my listeners

29:59

, which is the goal is a dog who is calm

30:01

, comfortable and cooperative , and

30:03

we're going to meet them partway with that cooperation

30:06

. It calm , comfortable and cooperative and we're going to meet them partway with that cooperation

30:08

. It's not obedience , it's cooperative , but we need them to be calm for it and there might

30:10

be some work that we have to do for this dog to be

30:12

touched , nevermind the nail

30:14

trim . I think that a lot of the

30:16

time we're assessing nail trim problems

30:18

because that's the thing we're having

30:21

difficulty doing , but the dog has a much

30:23

bigger issue .

30:24

Yeah , yeah , and I want to talk more

30:26

about aggression , to kind of segueing

30:29

from that , those issues that the dogs are experiencing

30:31

and how it can manifest into aggression . But

30:33

we are going to take a quick break to hear a word

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32:40

right , we're back here with Chrissy Neumeier-Smith . We've been talking

32:42

about grooming and

32:45

now I want to jump into the topic of aggression

32:47

and seeing aggression in the grooming context

32:49

. What are some safety

32:52

precautions other than muzzles ? We

32:54

, of course , talk about muzzles a lot on this

32:56

podcast , but well , actually I

32:58

would want to know more about what you think about

33:00

which types of muzzles , but let's talk

33:02

about safety in general . What are

33:04

your top recommendations for groomers to stay safe

33:07

in the grooming environment ?

33:09

So a lot of groomers use things like an

33:11

Elizabethan collar , and that's pretty

33:13

common because we're working on a

33:15

part of their body where now they can

33:18

breathe freely . They've got the Elizabethan

33:20

collar . It can keep them from getting

33:22

to us at their back end . But

33:24

, frankly , the idea that they're aggressive

33:27

because grooming is unpleasant

33:29

, uncomfortable and or scary , and

33:32

we really need to be thinking about the source , just

33:34

like we do with any dog training that we're doing

33:36

, you know like , okay , why is this dog

33:38

finding it unpleasant and

33:40

can we safely set

33:43

up a scenario where this dog is now feeling

33:45

safe but also we are not

33:47

going to get hurt ? There are a couple of things

33:50

that groomers do that others

33:52

don't do , which is like reach

33:54

down to a dog you've never met oh , her name's

33:56

Bella and she's always been good for grooming

33:58

and reach down and pick that dog up . Think

34:01

about the invasive things . Everything about

34:03

grooming is evasive and intrusive . You

34:05

know trying to teach groomers about least intrusive

34:08

and minimally aversive when grooming

34:10

is intrusive and in many

34:12

cases , aversive just by

34:14

what we need to do so to keep

34:16

everything safe . Part of that is going to

34:18

be setting some boundaries for

34:21

when the dog is nervous

34:23

, what we're going to do and let go

34:25

of the idea that this grooming needs to

34:27

be completed and maybe have

34:29

a little checklist of what's most important

34:31

today . Is it getting around those eyes

34:33

? Is it getting the nails trimmed ? Is it getting

34:36

some length off ? Is it the bath ? And

34:38

letting go of the idea that everything needs to be

34:40

completed , because I'm trying

34:43

to make groomers understand that we don't sell

34:45

haircuts . We sell haircutting services

34:47

and many of these dogs are not well-prepared

34:49

for our services and in one fell swoop

34:51

we could teach them to be terrified .

34:55

How do you , from a business standpoint

34:57

, how do you suggest

34:59

groomers navigate that ? Let's say , okay , because

35:02

I'm unfamiliar with how that would

35:04

be built or how that works

35:06

. But let's say we've got to get

35:08

nails done , hair trim , bath

35:10

, you know the whole nine . And you go

35:12

in there and like , okay , all we could do is the nail trims

35:15

today or the bath today . Do

35:17

you then send the dog home because

35:19

you're noticing the dog's nervous and uncomfortable and

35:21

you want to be following

35:23

to make sure that this dog is comfortable and

35:26

we're not doing any damage here to the

35:28

dog's behavioral repertoire

35:30

, so to speak ? What do you do then

35:32

? Or what do groomers do then ? Do they still

35:34

charge for the full session , or how

35:36

does it work ?

35:38

I'm trying to encourage groomers to ask those four questions

35:40

that we went over so that they

35:42

have a better idea of what they're expecting

35:44

. But also maybe that first

35:47

grooming is the one where you're really finding out

35:49

how this dog feels about it , and

35:51

so because of that , you've already talked to your

35:53

owners about listen , we're going to

35:55

do a certain amount of time , Maybe it's

35:57

by the timeframe . As

35:59

a house call groomer , I will sometimes book

36:02

somebody like listen , your dog's not going to be able to

36:04

do a full grooming session , let's book

36:06

one hour . It has a start

36:08

and end . It has a price attached

36:10

to it that does not refer to our outcome

36:12

. You know , it's not like I

36:15

bought a pretty head . So if

36:18

we help people understand that this is the

36:20

effort involved because these

36:22

are professional services and not

36:24

necessarily the nail trim or the haircut

36:26

but we are working toward

36:29

effective nail trimming , haircutting

36:31

, bathing , drying for the future , I

36:34

love that it's very similar to training , especially

36:36

in aggression cases , is that we

36:38

are not going to complete the product

36:41

in one session .

36:42

So a lot of it for me is the educational

36:44

component in that initial exchange with

36:46

the client just talking through things how

36:49

it's going to work so you can set expectations

36:51

. It sounds very similar in that regard .

36:53

Very similar , very similar , and by

36:55

doing that then your owner can

36:57

ask you the questions and the owner

36:59

can say , but wait , so I mean he needs

37:01

to look good . You know we have company coming over this weekend

37:04

and we can have those finer

37:06

conversations , those more minute conversations

37:08

about let me see what I can do to make his

37:10

head pretty , but your

37:13

dog isn't well prepared for this . Grooming

37:15

is weird , it's really weird

37:18

. We are touching every little , teeny , tiny

37:20

millimeter of that dog , every

37:22

little tiny spot we're in their gums

37:25

, we're touching their teeth . We're

37:27

all over the place on that dog and for

37:29

a lot of our dogs that is really scary

37:31

.

37:33

Yeah , now what's a conversation

37:35

technique ? You would have

37:37

to convince the clients a little bit

37:39

more of that , really advocating

37:41

for their dog's needs and helping them understand , rather

37:44

than the client wants a pretty dog

37:46

for their guests coming over this weekend

37:48

. I'm sure that conversation comes up a lot

37:50

for you guys . And what are some tips for that

37:52

? For groomers listening in ?

37:54

It does come up a lot and I know a lot of groomers

37:57

are worried about what does that dog look like

37:59

when they leave my shop . But

38:01

that last little

38:03

bit of I need to make him perfect is

38:06

probably at that dog's past

38:08

that dog's limit . So

38:10

I actually started

38:12

my own business back in 2000 because

38:14

I was so tired of working with these

38:17

dogs during a grooming appointment and getting

38:19

them so that they're really good and having a boss tell

38:21

me but you can't go home looking like that

38:23

, you need to finish it . But

38:27

he can't go home looking like that , you need to finish it . And knowing that I

38:29

had made such progress and that the last 10 minutes dissolved

38:31

into , you know , fear

38:34

and snapping or whatever that

38:36

dog does when they respond to fear , which

38:38

might be aggression or it might be trying

38:41

to jump off the table or get away from us

38:43

, you know . So if in

38:45

those last couple of minutes at all just

38:48

made all of your work irrelevant

38:50

and sometimes that's what groomers need to hear

38:52

and owners need to hear like , oh yeah

38:55

, I don't want to undo the good

38:57

work that we're doing and also helping

38:59

them understand the future Puppies

39:01

that are being born right now in January

39:04

of 2024 will have grooming

39:06

needs till 2039

39:08

. Are we going to fight with that dog that

39:10

whole time ? It just doesn't even make sense and

39:13

sometimes that's what helps owners go whoa

39:15

, yeah , that's a long time of

39:17

fighting with a dog . We can teach

39:19

them to be good .

39:21

Yeah , yeah , it puts things in perspective

39:23

for sure for them . I want to take just

39:26

a step back again to the safety precautions

39:28

as well . You had mentioned the Elizabethan collar

39:30

we had touched based on muzzles that

39:32

could be used in some contexts . But what

39:35

else would you recommend for groomers ? Body

39:37

language , reading like what are some of your top

39:39

? Like if you had a brand new groomer and you're like you've

39:41

got to stay safe here , what are the

39:43

top ? Some of the top other things that

39:46

you would include .

39:46

I can tell you that a lot of groomers are using tools

39:48

like belly bands and the hammocks

39:51

and muzzles

39:53

and Elizabethan collars , and

39:55

I'm not against those or

39:57

really for those . I think that what's really

39:59

important is that , no matter what we

40:01

are using , it's about how the

40:03

dog perceives this moment

40:05

. This moment matters . Is the dog

40:08

being held still so that we can get something

40:10

completed , or is this dog actually

40:12

finding this comforting ? Things like

40:14

hammocks and belly bands for an older dog who's

40:16

having trouble standing some of them relax

40:18

into that . Happy hoodies

40:20

are another thing that it's almost like a terrycloth

40:23

snood . It just goes up around their ears . It's almost

40:25

like a terrycloth snood , like it just goes up around their ears

40:27

. It's almost like a headband to help protect them

40:29

from sound . Some dogs find that really

40:31

reassuring . Other dogs find that really

40:34

constricting and scary . So , no

40:36

matter what we're using , our goal

40:38

is to assess is this helping this

40:40

dog have a better experience today

40:42

and also as groomers

40:44

? If you are really worried about a dog

40:47

, I want you to take that inner knowledge

40:49

you're picking up on something you

40:51

know and say am I in over my

40:53

head ? Is this dog at a point that

40:55

this is dangerous ? Groomers

40:57

are masters at body language

41:00

. They learn that very , very

41:02

quickly and they're really

41:04

good at recognizing body language . What we're not

41:06

well trained on is why that

41:08

body language is happening , what it means

41:10

and what we can do about it .

41:14

Tell me more .

41:15

Yeah , so you know when you , when

41:17

you reach into a crate to

41:20

pull a dog out , you know I

41:22

want you to think about the dog grooming

41:25

clientele , almost like shelter work . You

41:28

know , many times we don't know these dogs . You

41:30

know and you start noticing body language

41:32

. You see that dog stiffen and give you the eye

41:35

, but are you savvy

41:37

enough with behavior to know what that means

41:39

or how to help ? But if

41:41

we're always thinking , can I help return this

41:43

dog to calm and help this dog cope

41:45

with the situation they're in , that's

41:47

a very safe mindset . Does

41:50

that answer your question ?

41:51

Totally , and it

41:54

completely resonates with the shelter side

41:56

of things you were just using that example where , yes

41:58

, they become really good shelter

42:00

handlers meaning they are really

42:03

good at reading body language and what could

42:05

potentially happen next in terms of biting

42:07

, snapping , growling .

42:08

Yeah , they're three chess moves ahead . They

42:10

see it and they're like I know what happens next

42:13

.

42:14

Yes , yeah , and that just comes from hands-on

42:16

experience . That's why I recommend trainers volunteer

42:18

with shelters as much as they can , because that's the

42:21

best way to get hands-on not only with

42:23

the dogs but reading the dogs and reading

42:25

recognizing body language . It's such a crucial

42:27

skill to stay safe . But

42:29

the underlying you touched on it really well there

42:31

, chrissy is that the underlying emotions

42:34

and what could be motivating that dog's body

42:36

language or the emotional responses

42:38

we're seeing , right , that

42:40

can make the difference with how

42:43

to really empathize and when

42:45

to take next steps with that dog . And

42:47

so , in that regard , how

42:50

do you teach groomers to kind of know

42:52

when to push or stop

42:54

or push or stick ? Sometimes they call

42:56

it in training and you

42:59

know you have . We were talking like examples

43:01

before about you know you've got a

43:03

dog mid-shampoo and then suddenly the

43:05

dog is freezing or showing some signs . You're

43:07

like uh-oh , you know . So it's not a situation

43:10

where you can be like , oh , we're going to just stop because this dog

43:12

is nervous . You know there's certain instances like

43:14

that , but also instances you could be like mid-shave

43:17

and be like do I continue with this shave ? So

43:19

talk us through that a little bit more .

43:21

You know , I think if you can't get that dog

43:23

to calm down again , you

43:25

know , if you're not able to help return

43:28

them to calm and returning them to calm

43:30

doesn't necessarily mean you have to all stop

43:32

it might be that you turn off a tool

43:35

and maybe this dog you've already realized

43:37

that this dog likes a little bit of petting Some

43:39

of our toy breeds like a good snuggle . You

43:42

know Some of our goldens just need somebody to . You know , reassure them

43:44

, give them some baby talk . You know some of our goldens just need somebody to . You know , reassure

43:46

them , give them some baby talk . You know it really

43:48

depends on that dog and what that dog is motivated

43:50

by . But if we circle back

43:52

to , did I effectively help

43:55

you calm down again and how

43:57

do you feel when I turn the tool on ? And

44:00

that's part of why we need to be thinking about

44:02

how the dog is experiencing

44:04

this in this moment . Because if we

44:06

just continue which is what I see a lot of

44:08

groomers who are like boy , something

44:10

happened to this dog in the past . I don't know

44:12

what's going on , but maybe he needs some training

44:14

. Well , they're continuing with

44:17

what is a really unfortunate event

44:19

in this dog's life . You know this dog is

44:21

having a really hard time and they're having

44:23

a hard time not giving us a hard time . That's

44:26

a a big mind shift for many groomers

44:28

. The dog grooming world is still

44:30

very much um wrapped

44:32

up in dominance and you

44:34

know I don't want to say all groomers , but it's

44:36

still very , very common to hear things

44:38

like he needs to know better , he

44:41

needs to respect you , and

44:43

most of these problems we're seeing are not

44:45

respect based . They are

44:47

this is really uncomfortable , or

44:49

this is frightening , or maybe they're uncomfortable

44:52

because they are sore . We have a

44:54

lot of health issues with our dogs that

44:56

are still getting groomed . You know some of these

44:58

dogs are experiencing hip pain and

45:00

knee pain while we're trying to stand

45:03

them in a tub and stand them on a table and

45:05

pushing their boundaries further than they can handle

45:07

. So it's really important for us to look at that individual

45:10

dog and help our owners

45:12

understand that I am trying to do

45:14

what's right for your dog , for you and for your

45:16

dog , and this is about helping your

45:19

dog have the best experience so that we can continue

45:21

on for the rest of their life you

45:25

on for the rest of their life .

45:27

Yeah , yeah , and I was just

45:29

thinking along those lines of just like training . You start to get to know that individual dog and

45:31

what , where they can be sort of made

45:34

to go along a little bit further along . You

45:36

kind of decide , okay , this dog is ready for the next

45:38

steps versus this dog needs to stop , because

45:40

you start to really recognize

45:42

the conversation you're having with that particular animal

45:45

right .

45:45

Absolutely , absolutely , absolutely .

45:48

Do you have another thought on that ?

45:50

Well , I think that if we're helping the dogs be

45:52

calm and that's my mantra , I

45:54

say it all the time but checking

45:56

to see if they're comfortable with things , then

45:58

you're also being more aware of

46:00

when that change happens . So

46:03

if you're actively thinking about like

46:05

okay , well , wait a minute . I

46:07

noticed him get uncomfortable when I picked up the tool Well

46:10

, that's something that we can apply

46:12

a particular process to right . We

46:14

can create a new CER for that . But

46:17

often we're just

46:19

thinking like nail trimming is the thing that that

46:21

dog was worried about , but was it

46:23

, you know , like let's step

46:25

back and notice when we lose that

46:28

calmness , when that dog starts

46:30

to stiffen or give us the eye or try to

46:32

jump off the table or whatever that thing may be

46:34

. But if we're focusing in on calm

46:36

and always being aware of what this dog is experiencing

46:39

, we're more likely to notice when the change

46:41

happened and then we can really

46:43

assess how do we fix that little piece

46:45

? There are lots of puzzle pieces , which

46:48

is fascinating for us as trainers For

46:50

groomers . That's the frustrating part , just

46:53

teach me . I don't want them to bite me . They

46:57

don't find that part neat .

47:00

Yes . So on that note

47:02

of biting dogs , what are some

47:04

considerations for dogs that do have

47:07

a bite history in a grooming setting

47:09

? So client comes to a groomer

47:11

, like , okay , I've been trying groomers but the last

47:13

groomer we got fired from because the dog

47:15

bit the groomer so we can muzzle the dog

47:18

. We're working at a home with our trainer , so

47:20

they're making the steps . But considerations

47:23

for both groomers and trainers for dogs that

47:25

do have a bite history , do you pick certain

47:27

groomers or do you have somebody that's very experienced

47:29

? Do you have like a network of people ? Tell me more about

47:31

what you do with the dogs that bite .

47:34

You know , I know a lot of groomers don't want

47:36

to use muzzles . However , I

47:38

feel that if you have a dog with a bite history

47:40

, first thing I want to do

47:42

is teach them to be comfortable with a muzzle . And

47:44

to be comfortable with a muzzle , not just wear one

47:47

, but to be comfortable with one , so that we can

47:49

each perceive that like , ah , biting

47:51

is no longer on the table , which for some

47:53

dogs . They realize that I know

47:55

that's very anthropomorphic and how can I prove

47:57

that ? But they change their tactic

48:00

if they are wearing a muzzle

48:02

and we're still proceeding as

48:04

if that dog's comfort is

48:06

the most important thing . So

48:08

hopefully they're learning . Hmm

48:11

wait , I wiggled a little bit and they

48:13

tried to calm me down again . This

48:16

isn't the party I had at the last

48:18

place . You know . This isn't the way it went down

48:20

last time . We're making those efforts

48:22

to help the dog be calm , but

48:24

there are . If you are inexperienced

48:27

or you're worried , honor that and

48:29

send that dog to somebody else . You know

48:31

, and I

48:33

don't want to recommend meds or not

48:35

recommend meds , but let's talk to our

48:37

veterinarian and have our owners talk to our veterinarian

48:39

about . Is there something that this dog maybe

48:42

we can help this dog have a better experience

48:45

in these moments and set

48:47

it up for the most success .

48:52

Is there like , for instance , with the training world

48:54

? We have folks like myself that

48:56

specialize in aggression . Do you see

48:58

the same thing happening in the grooming world , where

49:00

some groomers are like I will take the biting dogs because

49:03

that's my specialty . I like working with the fearful

49:05

dogs . The dogs that have issues with grooming is like

49:07

really at a high level . Are

49:09

there people focusing on that and your side

49:11

of things ?

49:12

You know there really are . There are a lot of people out there

49:14

saying like , hey , we can do better . There

49:17

are lots of different approaches , but there are people who are

49:19

definitely like , yeah , I will . I want to work

49:21

with your shy pup , I want to work with your shy pup , I want to work with your scared

49:23

pup or I want to work with your aggressive

49:26

dog . I train some of

49:28

those people , so I have some of

49:30

those people going through my course . But

49:36

there are other ways to do it too . I know a lot of groomers have taken the fear-free certifications

49:38

because they are really interested in this . But what happens

49:40

is is that it can be really tricky

49:42

if they work for somebody and

49:45

they have a business owner telling them like

49:47

I don't understand how we make money on this . You

49:50

know , I don't understand how this works . We

49:52

do haircuts , but sometimes

49:56

I can help them reach that business

49:58

owner by saying an injured dog

50:00

can cost you thousands of dollars

50:02

and this is

50:04

unsafe . Doing it the old way is unsafe

50:06

. If we set this up to be as safe as possible

50:09

and we're charging for our time , we

50:11

have lost nothing .

50:14

Yes , I like that , and

50:17

an injured employee will cost thousands more

50:19

when you think about it . So you know , you want

50:21

somebody taking every step to ensure

50:23

that dog doesn't bite .

50:24

I mean , I have business insurance , but I have

50:26

a $500 deductible . You

50:29

know , a nicked dog could easily cost

50:31

a thousand , a couple thousand . You

50:34

know like injuries happen . We are using sharp

50:36

instruments and often

50:38

we are a millimeter away from their skin

50:40

.

50:41

think about what it takes to trim near an eye

50:43

yeah , a lot of skill yeah in

50:46

my mind , because that's not

50:48

my area of expertise now

50:51

and nor do I want it to be at

50:53

this point , but so

50:55

so let's talk about food

50:58

a little bit , because we haven't talked about using food . With

51:00

regards to safety and distraction , you

51:03

know you've seen some . I've seen some techniques

51:05

where you know , somebody might smear peanut butter

51:07

on the side of a scale or use some sort of food

51:09

tube or something that the dog can be distracted

51:11

by while the procedure is being done . Do

51:14

you see that commonly used we're

51:16

seeing it more and more .

51:18

But there are some concerns with using

51:20

food in a grooming environment , and

51:22

part of that is related to how

51:24

much history you took on that individual

51:26

dog , Because some of our

51:28

dogs are resource guarders and owners are never

51:30

going to think to tell a groomer that . So

51:33

there should be , if you're going to use food , some

51:35

discussions about what is he like with

51:37

food . Should be , if you're going to use food , some discussions

51:39

about what is he like with food . Because

51:42

if you can imagine a dog that doesn't want anyone to go near his dish and you're trying to trim

51:44

his nails while he licks a lick mat , that could be really dangerous

51:46

. But also all of the other

51:49

dogs in the room could have

51:51

an effect because of that food

51:53

. You know , like I smell peanut

51:55

butter , there's bacon happening over there , or

51:57

the squeeze cheese , and maybe it just makes

51:59

them extra silly and wiggly . Maybe

52:01

they start resource guarding Like this

52:03

table smells like something awesome

52:06

and I don't want anyone near my table

52:08

, you know . So we have to really

52:10

think about that . In the grooming setting , we are

52:12

not just working with one dog and

52:14

it's not our dog . I don't know

52:16

this dog the same way I know my own

52:18

dogs . It's a little bit more like would you

52:21

do it with a shelter dog in

52:23

a room full of other shelter dogs . You know a

52:25

dog that maybe you don't know all that well and doesn't

52:27

know you . But for

52:29

people who are using treats often

52:32

what they're doing is using , like the liver

52:34

treats or something like that that doesn't

52:36

create a mess , it's be easier

52:38

to clean up , Doesn't have lingering

52:40

scent you know that well . We

52:42

can't really perceive what dogs smell , but isn't

52:45

super charged up scent , right

52:47

Like it's just kind of a treat , something yummy , some

52:49

morsel of something or other , and doing

52:52

a lot of cleaning in between , probably

52:54

booking their day differently so

52:56

that they can have a dog with a really treat heavy

52:58

session , which

53:00

often requires two people .

53:02

That's what I was just going to ask you is how

53:05

to ? Because you had mentioned earlier , there's so many

53:07

tools . We've got so much going on with our hands

53:09

already . It's almost impossible if you're going

53:11

to be treating a dog while grooming or doing some

53:13

actual procedure . So that's where those

53:15

licky mats or those food tubes something that can

53:17

dispense the food without

53:20

having your hands on can be helpful

53:22

. But yes , it's absolutely important

53:24

to look at the resource guarding component

53:26

as well .

53:28

And also is it going

53:30

to create a mess on that dog's face that you're trying to

53:32

trim . Right , you

53:34

know that dog's now

53:36

licking everything and you're like I got your face all

53:38

nice and dry , I think , because

53:40

as humans we often get our haircut wet . You

53:43

might not know that to do a nice , proper

53:45

dog haircut , we do that dry . So

53:47

they've been bathed , dried and

53:50

now we're doing a haircut . And

53:52

if there's peanut butter in their hair that's

53:54

not going to be very helpful .

53:57

So it's very context . In situation specific

54:00

, it sounds like when you're going to use food , when

54:02

you can't use food , and you know . Something

54:04

else I thought about , as well as the comorbidity

54:07

with some resource guarding dogs also

54:09

have handling issues , so they don't want to

54:11

be touched and as trainers we sometimes

54:13

see this a resource guarding case dog that guards

54:16

their food bowl also doesn't like to

54:18

be handled and

54:24

that typically is revealed in the historical data we collect or the information we get from the

54:26

client which customers don't really give groomers that information

54:28

which ?

54:28

is why I encourage those four questions Like

54:31

know what you're getting into ? Because owners

54:33

think , well , I'm just going to pay to have somebody do it

54:35

, you know . And they don't realize

54:38

that that's it's not our job to get hurt . A

54:40

lot of these owners don't realize they have a problem

54:42

. Of course he goes crazy if somebody goes near his food

54:44

dish or I would never go near him if he had

54:47

a bone on the couch . We can't sit on the couch if

54:49

he's chewing a toy , but they don't tell

54:51

us that . So even if we want to use something

54:53

like treats , it requires a little

54:55

bit more forethought to find

54:57

out what's going on with this particular dog . But

54:59

maybe we didn't think about that with the dog two

55:01

tables down .

55:03

Yeah , yeah , a lot of these

55:05

issues can be alleviated by just good

55:07

communication with the client and asking the right

55:09

questions , and I love that

55:11

there's like this educational component to it

55:13

too for our clients , meaning we're

55:16

them or or giving them the information

55:18

they need to be . What else to be aware of ? It's

55:20

not just send the dog off like to

55:22

to auto body shop and it's like boom

55:24

comes back . It's .

55:25

There's a lot of details we want to know about to

55:27

ensure the best possible outcome for

55:29

all involved and I use auto

55:31

body shop examples that there's

55:33

a point where if I bring

55:35

my car to the shop , they give me the brake

55:37

job I need or they don't do the

55:40

brake work . I

55:42

don't get to pick and choose what happens in my brake

55:44

job , you know . So if we're like listen , as

55:46

your groomer , I need to help

55:48

him be comfortable with this . I can't give you

55:50

the nail trim you thought you wanted If

55:52

it involves like four people and

55:54

a muzzle and just get it done , like

55:56

that's trying to tell the mechanic how to do my

55:58

breaks . And as a professional

56:01

we need to be able to say like listen , we know that makes

56:03

it worse , that's dangerous . Someone's

56:05

going to get hurt , much like your break job . If

56:07

you don't get your break job done right , it's

56:10

going to make things worse .

56:12

Yeah , yeah , that's a good analogy . So

56:15

let's segue into a little bit about breeds

56:17

, because we do like to talk about breed characteristics

56:19

on this show . So we could talk

56:22

about it from a grooming and a training standpoint . So

56:24

grooming , obviously you might think of doodles

56:26

or something where it's going to be different than grooming a Doberman

56:28

. But what about from the behavior

56:30

aspect ? So from your trainer lens , if

56:33

you were to say , okay , we've got to be considerate

56:35

around this particular breed because they're more

56:37

prone to be suspicious of handling

56:40

or touching , would you say there's

56:42

any particular breeds you're cautious of or

56:44

just more aware of when you're starting

56:46

the grooming process ?

56:48

I would say I talk to a lot of groomers

56:50

about understanding our terriers better

56:52

. Because if we look at what terriers

56:54

were bred to do , their I'm

56:56

uncomfortable response is

56:59

often aggressive , like hey , I'm uncomfortable

57:02

, they're not going to freeze , they're not going to try to

57:04

run away Like that . We bred that

57:06

into them . So to know that ahead of time and

57:08

just help them be comfortable so that we don't see that response

57:11

. They aren't particularly aggressive

57:13

. They're not naughty dogs and I hate the term spicy

57:15

, but people use spicy but

57:18

if we look at what they were bred to

57:20

do , when they're uncomfortable , yeah

57:23

, they're going to go off and do a kill rat

57:25

behavior . So we need to think about that . But

57:28

also , I'd say it's not so much the breeds

57:30

as much as it's some

57:33

of these doodles . These poodle mixes have

57:35

really complicated coats and

57:37

lots of complicated grooming needs . So

57:40

there are a lot of problems with those breeds

57:42

if they are not well-versed in the kind

57:44

of things we need to do . Because by

57:46

five months old a doodle is probably

57:49

matted and they're

57:51

coming in for their first grooming at five months

57:53

old . They probably need to be

57:55

clipped down all the way , probably

58:00

need to be clipped down all the way and that's exhausting , first of all , like the . The kind of expectations

58:02

for some of these coat types and their grooming needs

58:04

mean that they need to do a longer endurance

58:07

run . They get touched all over

58:09

with more stuff and things , so

58:11

my border collies don't know what it's like to

58:13

have their body clipped , because that's not part of

58:15

what their breed gets . But

58:17

these doodles and we're seeing so many

58:20

of them we need to think about like this dog

58:22

is going to be asked a lot more

58:24

. They're going to need to do a lot more than like

58:26

the average golden .

58:28

Yeah , yeah , doodles

58:30

are the talk of the town for , I

58:32

think , trainers and groomers , and I

58:34

love them .

58:35

I love them , but if you're not thinking

58:37

about their we referenced

58:39

Kim Brophy's book quite a bit like but the

58:41

standard poodle and a golden retriever , that's

58:44

a golden doodle , that's all hunting

58:46

dog Like we would . We would not

58:48

expect a young golden retriever to

58:50

put up with the kind of things that we're trying to do

58:53

with a young doodle . You

58:55

know they're an adolescent , they're goofy

58:57

. Young

59:02

doodle . They're an adolescent , they're goofy . They have no patience at all . Yet they have a coat

59:04

type that's going to take two

59:06

hours or more .

59:08

Yeah yeah , interesting point , interesting point

59:10

. So I'd like to hear about

59:12

maybe one case that you've had

59:14

a grooming experience that really resonated

59:17

in your mind , whether it was something really difficult or

59:19

something that had a really wonderful outcome . Can you think

59:21

of something you can share with the audience ?

59:24

So I had a little old dog who when

59:26

she would get excited she was , she came

59:28

to me as a new customer because she

59:30

was starting to have seizures if she got really excited

59:33

. So at 16

59:35

, like starting up with a

59:37

new groomer and they thought , you know , let's just

59:40

do whatever we can with her and

59:42

trying to help her be comfortable with things

59:44

that maybe she was never comfortable with before

59:46

. And we did , and we did

59:48

not have any seizures , we didn't get

59:50

her worked up and I think a lot of people

59:53

would have given up on the dog that age

59:55

. But she can't be sedated

59:57

for grooming , she's much too old for that

59:59

. She's frail , she's fragile , she has health

1:00:01

issues . So to think about , how

1:00:03

can we come up with a plan that's

1:00:06

going to work for an older

1:00:08

dog with known medical issues ? And

1:00:10

I circle back to can

1:00:13

we just work on calm , comfortable and

1:00:15

know ? And that's what we did , because even

1:00:17

an older dog who may not have the

1:00:20

cognitive ability to learn new things

1:00:22

can respond well to someone trying

1:00:24

to help them feel comfortable .

1:00:26

Yeah , it resonates so much

1:00:28

when you think about an example of

1:00:30

somebody you know restraining

1:00:33

an old , a senior person you

1:00:35

know , and just holding it about , just getting it done with

1:00:37

, and just how awful that would be and we don't think

1:00:39

about that sometimes with dogs .

1:00:41

And if I had known her earlier in her life , we

1:00:44

might have avoided all of that instead

1:00:47

of groomings that she never felt comfortable

1:00:49

with , but now , as an older , frail

1:00:52

dog , the behavior became

1:00:54

hard for the groomer to complete

1:00:56

. Does that make sense ?

1:00:58

Absolutely yes . It's more about what the dog is experiencing than what the groomer to complete . Does that make sense ? Absolutely yes , it's more about

1:01:00

what the dog is experiencing than what the groomer

1:01:03

is experiencing . Yes

1:01:06

, the moral here is let's get our dogs into

1:01:08

these grooming environments early on and

1:01:10

let's get them acclimated in the way we want

1:01:12

them to so they're comfortable .

1:01:14

Yeah , I love it , and dogs that came to

1:01:16

me fairly young , with a fairly young with . You know

1:01:19

a bite history . I'm thinking of one particular

1:01:21

Bichon . When I got him used

1:01:23

to it and calm about it that never

1:01:26

came back . I remember one

1:01:28

day we were grooming and I nicked

1:01:30

his pad . So here he's

1:01:32

bleeding and it didn't come back . You

1:01:35

know that trust is long lasting

1:01:37

and if they can learn to be comfortable

1:01:40

with the process , I felt so awful

1:01:42

. The poor little guy . But we're using sharp

1:01:44

tools on moving dogs and

1:01:46

it wasn't really his fault , just you

1:01:48

know . But it did not turn into

1:01:50

. I'm going to bite you now . It did

1:01:53

not revert back to what he was when I met

1:01:55

him .

1:01:56

Yes , that trust and that relationship was

1:01:58

built .

1:01:59

Yeah .

1:01:59

That currency was in that account for you for that

1:02:01

little time teaching them to be comfortable

1:02:03

with the things .

1:02:04

So therefore it wasn't a thing that hurt

1:02:06

him . Does that make sense ? Absolutely

1:02:09

.

1:02:10

Absolutely , chrissy . Where

1:02:12

can people find you if you want ? They want to learn more about

1:02:14

your courses , what you're teaching , where can they

1:02:16

go ?

1:02:23

So I have a podcast Creating Great Grooming Dogs , which each episode is a 20-minute training

1:02:25

session , really a discussion session about some aspect of teaching

1:02:27

dogs to be good for grooming or other types

1:02:29

of cooperative care . Right

1:02:32

now there are 192 episodes

1:02:34

, which is about 63 hours of free

1:02:36

content . I

1:02:38

also teach at Whole Pet Grooming Academy

1:02:40

and I'm one of the educators there and

1:02:42

I teach the Master Groomer Behavior Specialist

1:02:44

Diploma Program there . So that's

1:02:47

another good way to find me , and

1:02:49

I have another podcast that I started up , but

1:02:51

the Knowledgeable Pet Owner . I started

1:02:53

that up with a couple other groomer friends one who's

1:02:55

also a vet tech and one who does

1:02:58

a lot of business speaking for the grooming industry

1:03:00

. That was another project we're doing

1:03:02

to help owners and help owners understand

1:03:05

a little bit more about owning their dog

1:03:07

and neat things that they can do with their dog

1:03:09

.

1:03:09

Fantastic , and as usual , I'll link to all

1:03:12

of those in the show notes . And Chrissy

1:03:14

will also be doing something special for aggressivedogcom

1:03:17

later this year , so stay tuned for that as well

1:03:20

. Chrissy , thank you so much . This

1:03:22

was wonderful talking with you and

1:03:24

I hope to have you on again in the future

1:03:26

.

1:03:27

Thank you so much for having me .

1:03:30

I'm really glad we had the opportunity to

1:03:32

do an episode on all things grooming

1:03:34

and enjoyed this conversation with Christine

1:03:36

. Things

1:03:40

grooming and enjoyed this conversation with Christine . Stay tuned , because Christine

1:03:42

is also giving a course , along with our good friend and colleague , monique Fairchild

1:03:44

, for AggressiveDogcom in the fall

1:03:46

of 2024 , on safe handling

1:03:48

, for any time we need to provide care

1:03:51

for dogs , whether in the grooming setting

1:03:53

or in the veterinary setting , which

1:03:55

is Monique's specialty . These

1:03:57

two have teamed up to create a one-of-a-kind course that

1:04:00

is not available anywhere else . So

1:04:02

stay tuned for more details on that , as

1:04:04

I'll be sending out an email to everyone subscribed

1:04:06

to the newsletter , which you can do , if you

1:04:08

haven't already done so , by going

1:04:11

to aggressivedogcom and

1:04:13

don't forget , while you're there . You can learn more about helping dogs

1:04:15

with aggression , from the Aggression in Dogs

1:04:17

Master Course to webinars from world-renowned

1:04:19

experts and even an annual conference

1:04:22

. We have options for both pet pros and

1:04:24

pet owners to learn more about aggression

1:04:26

in dogs . We also have the Help for

1:04:28

Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes that

1:04:30

you can subscribe to . These are solo

1:04:32

shows where I walk you through how to work with a variety

1:04:34

of types of aggression , such as resource guarding

1:04:37

, dog-to-dog aggression , territorial

1:04:39

aggression , fear-based aggression and much

1:04:42

, much more . You can find a link to subscribe

1:04:44

in the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button

1:04:46

if you're listening in on Apple Podcasts

1:04:48

. Thanks for listening

1:04:50

in and , as always , stay well , my friends , friends

1:04:53

, friends , friends , friends

1:04:56

, friends , friends , friends

1:05:09

friends

1:05:12

, friends , friends

1:05:19

, my friends .

1:05:19

I smell peanut butter . There's

1:05:21

bacon happening over there .

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