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0:00
Dogs love me . Just hold on to his foot while
0:02
he screams . He'll settle down .
0:04
This episode is for all you groomers out there
0:06
, or anyone that grooms their own
0:08
dog , which is just about everyone
0:10
who has , well , a dog . Christine
0:13
Neumeyer-Smith joins me for this episode and
0:15
we chat about all the considerations to take
0:18
to help dogs become more comfortable
0:20
with grooming , especially if they
0:22
have a history of aggression and any
0:24
type of handling or husbandry situation
0:26
. Christine is a master groomer
0:28
behavior specialist , certified professional
0:30
groomer , certified behavior consultant
0:32
for canines , certified professional
0:35
dog trainer and fear-free certified
0:37
groomer and trainer . Her
0:39
journey began in 1986 during an
0:41
internship for the Essex Agricultural
0:43
and Technical Institute Animal Science
0:46
Program , where she discovered her passion
0:48
for training and grooming . In 2000
0:50
, she founded Happy Critters offering
0:52
house call grooming , in-home
0:54
training and behavior consulting . As
0:57
an instructor at the Hall Pet Grooming Academy
0:59
, she teaches the Master Groomer Behavior
1:01
Specialist Program online course
1:03
, the Master Groomer Behavior Specialist Program
1:05
online course . Christine
1:09
has been hosting the Creating Great Grooming Dogs podcast since 2018 and speaks
1:11
at grooming conferences and summits , and if you are
1:13
enjoying the bitey end of the dog , you can support the podcast
1:15
by going to aggressivedogcom
1:17
, where there's a variety of resources to learn
1:19
more about helping dogs with aggression issues
1:21
, including the upcoming Aggression and
1:23
Dogs Conference happening from October
1:26
11th to 13th 2024
1:28
in Scottsdale , arizona , with
1:30
both in-person and online options
1:32
. You can also learn more about the Aggression
1:34
and Dogs Master Course , which is
1:36
the most comprehensive course available anywhere
1:38
in the world for learning how to work with and
1:40
help dogs with aggression issues . I
1:42
also have a wide variety of webinars , upcoming
1:45
courses , videos and articles , all
1:48
from the foremost experts in training and
1:50
behavior . We
1:58
are your one-stop shop for all things related to aggression in dogs
2:00
. Hey
2:04
, everyone , welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog . This week we have a topic that we haven't talked about on this podcast before
2:06
. It has to do with grooming dogs and
2:08
all of the considerations we should be taking not
2:10
only from the grooming side , but also
2:12
the behavior and training side . So
2:14
I'm really excited to have Chrissy Neumeier-Smith join
2:17
us this week . Welcome , chrissy .
2:18
Thank you so much for having me .
2:20
Let's dive right in here . I would
2:23
like to know what got you into grooming
2:25
and training , because that's sort of an interesting
2:27
dual role where there's not
2:29
a lot of trainers that do both and not a lot of groomers
2:31
that do both . So what got you into that side
2:33
of things ?
2:34
So I went to high school for agriculture
2:37
and animal science and we were required to
2:39
have a summer job internship
2:41
and I got one at a boarding kennel . So
2:43
I was working as a kennel tech and
2:49
during my lunch breaks I was watching the groomers and fell in love with it , and then I'd stay after
2:51
work and hang out for the dog training stuff and ride my
2:53
bike home . Both of those things just
2:55
grabbed me from the very beginning .
2:58
Nice and that kind of bloomed into
3:00
what you have going on now , which are teaching
3:02
trainers and groomers all over the world
3:04
right Through your online offerings .
3:05
Yeah , yeah , which is pretty exciting .
3:08
That's amazing and we were kind of talking too about
3:10
sometimes between industries or between
3:13
professions . So we have , like , the veterinary
3:15
profession and the trainers and groomers
3:17
. Sometimes there can be a little bit of conflict
3:20
in the information and
3:22
what beliefs are around behavior
3:25
and training especially . So what
3:27
are some issues you're seeing Because you have the trainer's
3:30
eyes as well as the groomer's eyes , so
3:32
let's kind of look at both angles From
3:34
a grooming lens , your groomer's
3:36
eyes . What issues do you typically see
3:38
that's happening or kind of with the training
3:40
side and this communication between
3:43
industries ?
3:44
So I would say that a lot of these terms
3:46
that we use don't sync up
3:48
and dog groomers if they
3:51
say an e-collar , they're talking an Elizabethan collar
3:53
. You know trainers
3:55
, when they say an e-collar , they're talking about something
3:57
entirely different . So some of our terms
4:00
don't match up . Groomers tend to use terms
4:02
like holistic grooming . Trainers tend
4:04
to use things like cooperative care . I
4:06
am trying to get more groomers to buy
4:08
into the idea that cooperative care is really what
4:10
we're looking for , but even just the
4:13
words that we use . But
4:15
I feel that there are a lot of places
4:17
where there are some gaps and each
4:20
field doesn't really know what the
4:22
other one is doing . Non-groomers
4:25
think they know what grooming is and they really don't
4:27
. You might have some blind spots and
4:29
non-trainers think that they know what training is
4:31
. You know like well , what would an obedience
4:33
class do to help this dog ? But training
4:36
is so much more than obedience classes .
4:50
So , from a groomer's point of view , they might not even think to go to a trainer because they don't
4:52
know what kind of options are available to them , yeah , and vice versa . You're kind of seeing the
4:54
same thing from the trainer's perspective and it's again sort of a lost in translation kind of communication
4:56
issue . It sounds like .
4:57
I think so . I think so . When
4:59
a trainer gives an owner instructions
5:02
and then the owner gives the groomer
5:04
instructions , they're playing telephone
5:06
, you know , and it does it . The context is
5:08
off , and often the groomer doesn't have
5:10
the background to understand or how to
5:12
implement the instructions
5:15
that have been given , and so of course , they think these are ridiculous
5:17
. I can't do that while I groom . So
5:19
, you know , there's there's a lot of barriers that
5:21
don't need to be there .
5:23
Yeah . So let's kind of dive into some examples
5:25
of that , because as a trainer , you know
5:27
when I think about okay , if I've got a dog that has an issue
5:29
with grooming , I'm going to do some counter conditioning
5:32
. Maybe I'll use something like a distraction technique
5:34
. I use some consent-based training or
5:36
cooperative care and teach the client how to do . Maybe
5:42
the dog teaches a chin rest at home , or something like that . Where are the problematic
5:44
areas of that that you're seeing in that translation
5:46
? Is it because it takes so much time or
5:48
the skill sets ? What issues are you seeing
5:50
there ?
5:51
Oh , it's such a great question . You
5:53
even mentioned like chin targets , nose targets
5:55
, things like that . The problem for
5:57
groomers is that there's nobody watching
6:00
the dog's head , and it's one
6:02
of the most common things that we find frustrating
6:04
. As a groomer , you are one-on-one
6:06
with that dog and you are trying
6:08
to do something on a back foot and
6:10
literally cannot see if that dog is holding a
6:12
nose target or a chin target or
6:15
staring at the bucket or doing some
6:17
other start button behavior . So
6:19
some of those start button behaviors aren't
6:22
a reality in the grooming shop unless
6:24
we now have two people and
6:26
are charging for two people worth of work
6:28
and trying to help more groomers understand
6:30
that that's a great procedure
6:33
to work toward not
6:35
needing it later . So
6:37
sometimes groomers are being told
6:39
okay , and you'll need a clicker and you'll need
6:41
treats , but as a dog groomer , if
6:44
you are working with a dog , it's so common'll need treats , but as a dog groomer , if you are working with a dog , it's so
6:46
common . I'll use an example . A
6:48
dog groomer might be drying a dog's front leg
6:51
and they've got the nozzle of the dryer under
6:53
their left armpit . They're holding the dog's
6:55
foot with their left hand . They've got a comb
6:57
in between the fingers of their left hand because
6:59
they're switching out from the brush in their right hand
7:01
to the comb and somebody tells them they need
7:04
cookies and a clicker and they're like I'm
7:06
already doing three hands worth of work
7:09
and their frustration
7:11
gets there and they don't understand the why
7:13
. They don't understand that these are approximations
7:16
toward a dog that you can do
7:18
all of that with . I
7:21
hope that answers your question .
7:22
Definitely , definitely . So , besides
7:24
shape-shifting into an octopus where you
7:26
have like eight arms , where you can hold all these
7:29
different things . What are some
7:31
things that you're seeing that do work well , translating
7:33
from the trainers recommending something
7:36
, or teams where you've seen trainers working
7:38
with somebody that needs help in the grooming . What are some
7:40
types of techniques that you do see
7:42
work well ?
7:44
What I think works really well is if a trainer
7:46
is talking to an owner about
7:48
working on things at home and understanding
7:51
the context that they're going to be used in , and
7:53
then the groomer has this dog , who the
7:56
owners are already all set with the idea that
7:58
we don't need to complete a trim today
8:00
, we don't need to complete nail trimming
8:02
today , that they're working cooperatively
8:04
, that not just with the dog
8:06
, but the groomer and the trainer are also
8:09
on board with . Let's help this
8:11
dog have a better experience
8:13
today and let go of the grooming
8:15
outcomes , and
8:18
that works really well .
8:20
And can you think of some actual
8:22
techniques that we might be doing ? And
8:24
can you think of some actual techniques
8:26
that we might be doing ? Let's
8:31
use an example a dog that needs , let's say , ear cleaning or something like that , and the dog has an aversion
8:33
to that . But let's
8:36
say it's something we need to kind of get done . It's kind of
8:38
more urgent on that side of things . What
8:40
do you see , for example , in that regard
8:42
that a trainer can work with at home and be like , okay
8:44
, we're going to do this at home with the client and then it's going
8:46
to translate well to the grooming experience without the
8:48
trainer or the owner there .
8:50
You know , I think what works really well for something
8:52
like that is that the owners understand that
8:54
when they're at home they're trying
8:57
to incrementally help this dog feel
8:59
more comfortable with the types of touching
9:01
, because that does translate to others
9:03
and maybe they've been going
9:05
to this groomer for a while . You know , maybe this is not
9:08
a new stranger , but that's part of what groomers
9:10
face . Groomers don't live with these dogs , so
9:12
if they have this dog come in
9:15
, that is , they've been working on doing something
9:17
around the ears . Now , if the groomer
9:19
knows , oh , I'm going to continue on
9:21
with the kind of training you've been doing
9:23
at home , if that communication
9:25
happens , you know , and maybe that
9:27
is just ear touches and lifting
9:30
the ear up and then seeing how the
9:32
dog handles things , like , okay , now we're going to put a
9:34
cotton ball , and now we're going to put a cotton
9:36
ball near your ear and in your ear and all those
9:38
little minute . You know things that
9:40
we do as trainers for a groomer . If they
9:42
don't understand the why , that can be really frustrating
9:44
, but
9:49
it is for our owners too .
9:50
And if we think about groomers as a different , type of owner
9:52
that can be really helpful for us . So it sounds like , in a sense , if
9:55
we're going to look at sort of the techniques involved
9:57
and what you're explaining there
9:59
. In my mind , let's desensitize
10:01
the dog a little bit more at home . So not any
10:03
particular behavior expectation
10:05
like contingency on a particular behavior
10:07
to do this . In that context , versus
10:10
, I'm just going to get you used to people
10:12
touching your ears so that way
10:14
when you get to the groomers or vets it's more
10:17
likely somebody could touch your ears , so you're
10:19
a little bit more acclimated
10:21
to that , rather than I want you to
10:23
do X , Y or Z behavior when
10:25
somebody's about to touch your ears . Does that kind
10:27
of make sense ?
10:28
Yeah , to normalize the kind of touching
10:30
that groomers are going to do , because
10:33
we have lots of different equipment and
10:35
it's hard for an owner to be able to use
10:38
that types of equipment . But what if we just
10:40
start off by normalizing all
10:42
of those touches being touched all over ? And
10:44
it's almost like when we as dog trainers tell
10:46
people yeah , he doesn't do it
10:49
on a walk , but he can do it in your
10:51
kitchen , and that's a good start . Can
10:53
he do it in your kitchen , can he do it in your living
10:55
room , can he do it in your driveway , you
10:57
know ? And to build up incrementally towards
11:00
something that looks like a grooming
11:02
shop environment or a grooming environment
11:04
, because not all groomers are grooming shops . We have
11:06
vans , we have house call , we have lots
11:08
of different grooming setups .
11:10
And so next steps to that ? So
11:12
let's say we have a very dedicated
11:14
pet guardian , for instance , and
11:16
they're into training , they're more into behavior
11:18
. What would be next steps ? So we've
11:21
got working on desensitization , we're getting the
11:23
dog used to the equipment you're mentioning and
11:25
some handling . Are there any sort
11:28
of next steps , tangible behaviors , that you might
11:30
put into place ?
11:31
So I think if you are a trainer
11:34
and you're super into cooperative care , I
11:36
would like you to consider the idea
11:38
that instead of nose targeting , chin
11:40
targeting and the bucket game things
11:42
that are pretty common To move that into
11:45
cooperative care and your consent
11:47
, your start button behavior is
11:49
if the dog is relaxed under your hand . That's
11:53
what I use as a start button behavior and that's
11:55
what I'm teaching groomers Can you open your
11:57
hand and is that dog still staying
11:59
there and relaxing into you
12:01
? And to transition to that
12:03
, because groomers can feel that while we
12:05
work Maybe not all the time , but
12:07
most of the time we can feel if a dog is
12:09
tense or not .
12:11
So when you say can you describe that a little bit more ?
12:13
So you say , open your hand , and are you placing your hand
12:15
on a certain area or yeah , Can
12:17
I hold your ear and not feel like I have
12:19
to physically control the
12:22
dog from moving ? Can I hold
12:24
a foot and open my palm and
12:26
have that foot stay there ? These
12:28
are ways that we can have consent in grooming
12:30
that a groomer can actually feel . Can I lift
12:33
your tail ? Can I manipulate
12:35
your body , move you into different poses
12:37
, put equipment near you and
12:40
have you stay loose .
12:42
Can you describe a little bit more how somebody would teach
12:44
that at home ? Let's say , you've got some listeners
12:46
in and they're like that sounds great , Chrissy , but how
12:48
do I go ? About doing that .
12:50
And the way to do that is you want to
12:52
start off when your dog is already pretty chill
12:55
and get working on touching them
12:57
all over , and if they start to
12:59
stiffen , that's your signal that
13:01
you've maybe gone too far . And how do
13:03
we expand that bubble ? How do we make
13:05
this enjoyable for your pet to be touched
13:07
all over , to casually lift their
13:09
feet up with us , because that
13:11
will translate to what
13:13
they need to do in a grooming setting ? I
13:16
think that answers your question .
13:18
Yeah , and when you say you had mentioned
13:20
earlier , they kind of push into your hand and I can kind
13:22
of picture my own dog when she wants to be pet
13:25
more . She does the whole hand nudging thing . But
13:28
yeah , she gets very comfortable about kind
13:30
of leaning into the space , my space
13:32
, as you were mentioning . Is that what you mean by
13:34
that ?
13:34
Yeah , yeah . Or if they're trying to
13:36
pull away . You know I don't
13:38
want dogs pulling away and I
13:40
think a lot of people don't realize if you've never
13:42
really watched grooming . All of our tools
13:45
can hurt a dog . We
13:47
are literally using sharp tools on
13:49
wiggly creatures . So sometimes
13:51
people are like , can't you just use the hair clippers
13:53
instead of scissors ? And I'm like , yes , but those
13:55
can hurt a dog too . So at
13:58
every step we're trying to keep that dog
14:00
what I tell my listeners calm , comfortable
14:03
and cooperative . That's our goal through
14:05
all of it . It should be about as interesting
14:07
as watching paint dry . And so
14:09
if we talk to our owners about , like
14:11
, get them used to touching all over , you
14:13
know it doesn't even need to be with a brush , it doesn't
14:16
need to be with a tool . What if
14:18
we just get them all loosey-goosey
14:20
? You know tech
14:25
talk loosey-goosey and used to like , oh , someone's messing with my ear , someone's lifting up
14:27
my tail , someone's looking at my dew claws , someone's going to look at my
14:29
teeth , and that translates well
14:31
to the veterinary too .
14:33
Yeah , and I will second
14:36
the notion of things can hurt , because going
14:39
to the barber there's nothing worse than a dull
14:41
pair of clippers on the side of your head . But
14:44
I can say something to the barber the dogs
14:46
have to communicate through body language
14:48
or sometimes , aggression . If it hurts , so
14:51
yeah , it's so . Now
14:53
, when you're talking about that , are you pairing
14:55
reinforcement with it as well ? So let's
14:57
say we start teaching start buttons
14:59
or like the dog giving consent , leaning
15:01
into my hand . You then say great , and then reinforce
15:04
that in the home environment Because
15:06
we'll talk about food in the grooming environment more in just
15:08
a moment . But what about at home ? It's like , how
15:10
do you teach that , or reinforce that
15:12
, I should say .
15:15
I think it's going to depend on what that dog is
15:17
comfortable with and if it's getting
15:19
used to something new or if it's working
15:22
with a fear of something they've already been exposed
15:24
to , and those are two separate problems
15:26
that we see pretty commonly in dog grooming . The
15:28
dog that has no experience the dog
15:31
that has no experience might not need cookies
15:33
. They might just be like what's this , what's
15:35
happening ? Okay . But the dog who
15:37
has some fears , there's nothing wrong with using
15:39
cookies and stuff at home , maybe a clicker
15:42
, maybe just reward markers . What
15:44
I find translates later in grooming
15:46
is if they are not using
15:49
cookies at home and it starts turning into
15:51
like oh , this just feels good .
15:53
So even just the tactile feedback
15:55
or the relationship with the
15:57
client can really matter . Speaking
16:00
of which , how do you see that play
16:02
out ? Sometimes we have a dog that's like okay , I trust
16:04
you , I trust you as my guardian , I'll lean into
16:06
you , I can totally be fine
16:08
with you touching me . What about the dogs
16:10
? That it doesn't translate well to strangers or
16:12
a groomer or somebody else , like only
16:15
my person can do that kind of stuff to me
16:17
, not you . Do you see that happen ?
16:19
That happens quite a bit and
16:26
what many groomers are trying to do to address that is to set up
16:28
meet and greets . You know , maybe this dog is a new customer for
16:30
us , or a new dog to that owner , or
16:33
a new puppy , but a meet and greet like let's
16:35
just get you used to us because
16:37
the difference between a stranger is going
16:39
to give me a bath or my new
16:42
weird friend is going to give me a bath can
16:44
be a huge difference . So for us
16:46
to think about that in terms of
16:48
all right , well , you've done a lot of work at home , and
16:50
how can we transfer that to other
16:53
people , other trusted people
16:55
?
16:55
Maybe that's not going to be every person
16:57
, but that could be a particular
16:59
groomer Do you find it translates
17:02
well , if that pet guardian has some
17:04
friends , come over other family members to
17:06
help practice with this . Okay , Uncle Bob , come over
17:08
and we're going to have you do a little bit of touching
17:10
ears , and as long as the dog again is
17:13
showing consent for that .
17:15
Perhaps I'm not really sure . I
17:17
haven't tried that because I'm a little bit worried about
17:19
someone trying to have a
17:21
helpful friend come over and maybe
17:23
overwhelm their dog , you know .
17:25
Yeah , I think it would matter a lot on who
17:28
is doing it . Yeah , yeah , because .
17:29
Next thing , you know , you've got that friend who's like dogs
17:31
. Love me . Just hold onto his foot while he screams
17:34
. He'll settle down , you know .
17:36
And undo a whole lot of work . Exactly
17:39
, exactly .
17:41
But owners can do a lot and
17:55
especially if they're thinking in terms of this , is to help our dogs feel
17:57
comfortable . This is to help our dog feel good . Dogs are going to have , if they
17:59
have a 15 year lifespan , they're going to have grooming once in their life . This
18:01
is for 15 years and
18:04
if we can work on it in the beginning
18:06
, that comfort level and trust
18:08
carries through the whole time
18:10
.
18:11
Yeah , and what would you recommend then , since
18:13
we're on that topic , let's say , pet
18:15
guardian listening in at home . Now they just got their
18:17
eight-week puppy , 10-week-old
18:20
puppy , and what would be some of your
18:22
top recommendations ? Like , start doing
18:24
this now . Again , let's
18:26
face it , they're getting all kinds of information and we got to
18:28
socialize , we got to be careful with
18:30
vaccinations , like they're all kinds of information
18:33
and so they're like oh , now I got to think about
18:35
grooming . So if you were to
18:37
really have an elevator pitch of like this , start
18:39
this now , because that's really going to help with the grooming aspect
18:42
.
18:47
If you have a puppy , if you went to a breeder for a puppy , that puppy has probably already
18:49
started learning about grooming processes . We want that super , super early
18:51
. It is part of socialization and
18:54
even though they haven't had their full
18:56
set of vaccines , talk to your veterinarian
18:58
about the idea that a meet and
19:00
greet in a grooming shop isn't
19:02
about socializing with other dogs . You
19:05
know they aren't going to be putting them with other dogs , but
19:07
a lot of groomers are doing what we call
19:09
a meet and greet Maybe it's 10 , 15
19:12
minutes , maybe 20 , where they bring that puppy
19:14
in . Puppy gets cuddled by a whole bunch
19:16
of new people , is exposed
19:18
to a grooming setting , hears things
19:20
like dryers , see dogs getting wet and
19:24
is exposed to the things that
19:26
they're gonna need for their whole life , much
19:28
like we would expose them to cars
19:30
and kids . And
19:33
it's really an essential part of an early education
19:36
for these dogs .
19:37
Do you find a lot of groomers offering that service now
19:39
? It seems like it would be a great , not only
19:42
service for the puppies but marketing
19:44
really . Like come in and check out the shop and , yeah
19:47
, you can come in free , socialize your puppy
19:49
and then we'll see you as a customer for the rest of the
19:51
dog's life , right ? Yeah , do you see that's a standard
19:54
kind of a standard practice or needs to happen more .
19:56
It is really becoming a standard practice . There's a
19:58
lot of interest in behavior in the grooming
20:00
realm and
20:05
a lot of groomers are trying to get owners to bring the pups in for like a couple little
20:07
sessions that don't involve a bath and maybe that first grooming
20:09
session is a minimal , like
20:11
we're going to get you wet . Maybe we don't even wet your
20:13
head , but we're going to get you wet , get you a little
20:15
soapy , get you used to things . It's
20:18
actually becoming pretty common practice and
20:20
sometimes they're selling those as a package . You
20:22
know , like okay , your puppy package
20:24
is going to include three of these little shortened
20:27
visits . We're going to get your puppy used to
20:29
the kind of things that they're going to need to know as
20:31
an adult .
20:32
Oh , that's fantastic . That's good to hear because I hadn't
20:35
realized that , but that's good to hear that that
20:37
trend is taking off in not only the grooming
20:39
world but also the veterinary world . The
20:47
veterinary world Now , from the grooming standpoint . What questions would you ask to the pet guardians
20:49
? What groomers should ask the pet guardians ? Some
20:51
tips for the groomers listening in .
20:54
So I have four questions that I want groomers
20:56
to ask , or really anybody who's working with animals
20:58
to ask owners to try to get a feel for
21:01
how their dog might respond to things
21:03
, and I tell these to everybody who will
21:05
listen
21:07
. But the first question is what does your dog
21:09
do if he doesn't like something ? And
21:12
this is before we've had any behavior issue . This
21:14
is before we even meet the dog . What does your dog
21:16
do if he doesn't like something ? And you
21:18
might need to give them some prompts . They might be like
21:21
what kind of things ? Well , what does he do if he's left
21:23
alone in a room ? What does he do if you turn on
21:25
the vacuum cleaner and then they
21:27
start thinking about it and tell us what he does
21:29
? Question two is what does
21:31
your dog do if they don't like something you're doing
21:33
to them on their physical body
21:35
? And now an owner is in a
21:37
position to tell us a story where
21:40
we can get data . So they tell us a
21:42
story about something like that and you might need
21:44
to prompt them . You might need to say wiping
21:46
him down when he comes in from the rain , trying
21:49
to look in his ear , trying to pull something
21:51
out of his fur and give them some
21:53
prompts and maybe they're like you know what ? I
21:55
can't think of anything . He's great for everything
21:57
. But because we're not waiting until
21:59
it's a behavior problem and we're using these to
22:01
assess the owners are
22:03
very open about it and they're coming
22:05
up with that storytelling and seeing the bigger picture
22:08
. Then question three is
22:10
what does he do if you don't stop ? And
22:13
most of our owners say what I
22:15
mean he put his teeth on me . Why would ? Why , of course
22:17
I stopped , you know . And so
22:19
we don't really know what a dog would do if they don't stop
22:22
. Or maybe they have continued and
22:24
pressed on forward . But that also tells
22:26
us the story of how this dog
22:28
had an issue and how it was addressed
22:30
. And then the fourth question
22:32
is what do you think your dog will
22:35
do when I , as a stranger , don't
22:37
stop ? And
22:39
that's where an owner often says this might
22:41
be a training problem .
22:45
Yeah , I love those because they're general
22:47
enough to really extract the information . I
22:50
use similar questioning when I'm talking
22:52
about aggression cases or with a client with aggression
22:54
case , because sometimes
22:56
you need to ask a much broader
22:59
question . That's going to allow
23:01
for sometimes . Oh yeah , that's right , he also
23:03
does this or she also does that , and
23:06
I love those questions .
23:07
And groomers should be assuming that every dog is
23:09
an aggression case until they prove they're not
23:11
. I would
23:13
rather assume that a dog is going to have difficulty
23:16
at some point in the process and be prepared
23:18
for that than to assume that everything's going
23:20
to go fine . Trainers have
23:22
a blind spot and many
23:25
trainers do which is that we work
23:27
with owners who know that they have a problem
23:29
, recognize that they have a problem and made at
23:31
least one step toward fixing it
23:33
. Groomers work with the full
23:35
range of pets out there , so they
23:37
may have an owner who's like well , of course he's going to try to bite you
23:39
. Dogs hate grooming . That's
23:42
why we brought him to you . So
23:44
this gives us more information for us to
23:47
find out what this dog is really likely
23:49
to do , and then from that conversation
23:52
we can talk to an owner , perhaps
23:54
about this dog sounds like he might
23:57
really hurt somebody , or I'm
23:59
glad he .
24:00
Sounds like he's going to be great and
24:02
that's a conundrum because I was just thinking like , what do you do Like , because some pet guardians
24:05
they can't trim the dog's nails and they're afraid to that . And that's a conundrum because I was just thinking like , what do you do like , because
24:07
some pet guardians , they can't trim
24:09
the dog's nails . So they're afraid to . And you
24:11
know , and there's okay , let's take the
24:13
dog to the groomer because the groomer is going to get it done
24:15
. But what if the groomer's like I'm
24:18
not going to be able to get it done because your dog doesn't want me to
24:20
trim the nail ? So what is ? How do those conversations
24:22
go ? I mean , that must be tough , especially
24:24
from a business standpoint , right ? How
24:26
do you navigate that conversation ?
24:29
That is really tricky . So because
24:31
I do the behavior part also , I
24:34
can talk to them about . You know what I know
24:36
in the past you've probably been able to
24:38
pay for people to just restrain
24:41
your dog and get it done , but
24:43
that's also why you have a seven-year-old
24:45
dog who's still terrified of it , and
24:48
a lot of people don't realize that dogs can
24:50
become injured while things
24:52
like this are happening . You know , the more people you
24:54
add . So I talk to people about let's
24:56
see what we can do about helping them feel better
24:58
about it . But there are lots of different ways
25:00
to handle that conversation . I had a customer
25:03
who was like well , I came to you because you're
25:05
supposed to be some sort of a behavior specialist and
25:07
you know now you're telling me you won't do it and I'm like I
25:09
said I wouldn't do it your way . I
25:11
have options for you . You know like
25:13
there are other things that we can do and it's going to require
25:16
you to buy in . You know , whether
25:18
that be doing some homework or helping
25:20
out or just bringing them in often
25:22
enough , as we've prescribed , so that
25:24
we can say like , hey , just bring them in more often
25:26
, let's go ahead and do this stuff , help
25:28
them feel comfortable with us , help them feel comfortable
25:31
with the touching and then help them feel comfortable
25:33
with the nail trimming , you know , but the
25:35
idea that they want
25:37
it done and they just want us to climb all over
25:39
that dog and get it done and it
25:41
looks like , you know , like a football
25:43
tackle , and that's not cool , that's not okay
25:46
, and it looks like a football tackle and that's not cool , that's not okay
25:48
, yeah , so I'm thinking from a groomer's perspective
25:51
and you have clients that are just
25:53
, they want to get it done .
25:55
And they come to see you and they think , okay
25:57
, chrissy's great , she's going to be able to do this magical behavior
25:59
stuff . But then you tell them about the more the
26:01
planned approach that you'd like to take . And
26:04
they're like all right , forget that , the planned approach that you'd like to take . And
26:06
they're like all right , forget that , I'm just going to go to the other person that just holds
26:08
my dog down and I just get it over with . That must
26:10
just like trainers . We have
26:12
the issue of compassion fatigue . We
26:14
get concerned about that dog because we're
26:16
in it for the dogs as well as the people . But we're
26:18
really worried about that dog that's now going to be subjected
26:21
to an aversive experience . How
26:23
do you navigate that in your own world
26:25
? Or , you know , maybe you've had that insight from other
26:27
groomers as well .
26:28
Absolutely . We talk to them about
26:31
the idea that if your dog learns
26:33
to be comfortable with this , future
26:35
nail trims are all going to be safer . It's
26:38
sad but true . I have
26:40
occasionally shown owners video
26:42
. There's a video up of a dog that dies during a
26:44
nail trim . You
26:52
know it's sad but true . The idea that we'll just put a muzzle on him and then he can't
26:54
bite you . But there are lots of ways to be injured , you know , and so
26:56
sometimes we have to backtrack to like that
26:58
is not safe . I have some safe options
27:00
for you , but that's just not safe . And
27:03
when that dog is in my care and
27:05
I have to choose the safest version
27:07
. But I also tell them in my
27:09
experience if you give
27:11
me three or four sessions
27:14
where I don't have to worry about what gets completed
27:16
nail trim wise , as an example
27:18
, and we just work on behavior give
27:21
me three or four sessions to show you that we can
27:23
have improvement , because sometimes they just don't
27:25
believe that there's a way to improve it .
27:29
How do you cope with it as a groomer
27:31
when you're seeing that , regardless
27:33
of what ? However you try to talk to the client
27:35
, they're just like no , I'm off , I'm
27:38
going to go back to that . And then you see that you
27:40
know you might see it repeatedly too . Sometimes we
27:42
as trainers , we see these strings of cases that
27:45
they end up going to somebody that's promising
27:47
a quick fix but it does nothing to help
27:49
that dog feel better in that situation . How
27:51
do you , chrissy , cope with that
27:53
?
27:54
Yeah , it breaks my heart . It
27:57
makes me feel like I didn't effectively
28:00
help that owner understand the problem
28:02
. You know it doesn't happen very often
28:05
, but every once in a while , and usually it's not another
28:07
groomer , it's when the veterinarian has told
28:09
them like don't worry about it , just bring him in , we
28:11
will have the techs climb all over him and do
28:14
it . You know , like usually it's
28:16
it's . People don't usually bump
28:18
my opinion for other groomers or other trainers
28:20
. It's usually like , well , the vet said and I'm like
28:22
but we have these other options
28:24
. But also to be able to say in
28:26
my experience , I can
28:28
teach your dog to be much better for this . They may
28:31
never love it , but I can teach a
28:33
healthy dog to be a safe dog .
28:35
Yeah , do you have any advice for
28:37
newer groomers ? Because it sounds like you're seasoned
28:40
and you also have the benefit of
28:42
being who you are and so you
28:45
sort of like what I do is you have already
28:47
the credibility , so kind of what you say
28:49
resonates . It's more likely to resonate with
28:51
people that know your reputation . Do you
28:53
have any advice for the newer groomers out there and
28:55
this would resonate with trainers as well when
28:57
you're experiencing these
28:59
cases where , okay , here's a dog that's
29:02
just going back to the old handling
29:04
and rough handling situation and
29:06
you start to see that over and over and it starts to
29:08
affect you emotionally . What
29:10
is your advice to the new groomers in the field ? They're seeing
29:12
that and they're getting burnt out because they keep seeing that
29:14
and they're trying to follow the model
29:17
you're demonstrating .
29:19
You know , I think the way to start
29:21
that is if you're brand new and you don't
29:23
have your own case study yet , you don't have
29:25
your miraculous transformation story
29:28
of your own , but to say I
29:30
know that this makes it
29:32
worse . I know
29:35
that holding this dog down and doing
29:37
it while they scream even though
29:39
nail trims are very important I
29:41
know that this will make it
29:43
worse and that can be the
29:45
little nugget that you hold on to and you're like listen
29:48
, there are things that we don't do because
29:50
we know it'll make it worse . You know it
29:52
can be hard to figure out the various ways to
29:55
explain things to an owner , but
29:57
I tell my owners too , like what I tell my listeners
29:59
, which is the goal is a dog who is calm
30:01
, comfortable and cooperative , and
30:03
we're going to meet them partway with that cooperation
30:06
. It calm , comfortable and cooperative and we're going to meet them partway with that cooperation
30:08
. It's not obedience , it's cooperative , but we need them to be calm for it and there might
30:10
be some work that we have to do for this dog to be
30:12
touched , nevermind the nail
30:14
trim . I think that a lot of the
30:16
time we're assessing nail trim problems
30:18
because that's the thing we're having
30:21
difficulty doing , but the dog has a much
30:23
bigger issue .
30:24
Yeah , yeah , and I want to talk more
30:26
about aggression , to kind of segueing
30:29
from that , those issues that the dogs are experiencing
30:31
and how it can manifest into aggression . But
30:33
we are going to take a quick break to hear a word
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right , we're back here with Chrissy Neumeier-Smith . We've been talking
32:42
about grooming and
32:45
now I want to jump into the topic of aggression
32:47
and seeing aggression in the grooming context
32:49
. What are some safety
32:52
precautions other than muzzles ? We
32:54
, of course , talk about muzzles a lot on this
32:56
podcast , but well , actually I
32:58
would want to know more about what you think about
33:00
which types of muzzles , but let's talk
33:02
about safety in general . What are
33:04
your top recommendations for groomers to stay safe
33:07
in the grooming environment ?
33:09
So a lot of groomers use things like an
33:11
Elizabethan collar , and that's pretty
33:13
common because we're working on a
33:15
part of their body where now they can
33:18
breathe freely . They've got the Elizabethan
33:20
collar . It can keep them from getting
33:22
to us at their back end . But
33:24
, frankly , the idea that they're aggressive
33:27
because grooming is unpleasant
33:29
, uncomfortable and or scary , and
33:32
we really need to be thinking about the source , just
33:34
like we do with any dog training that we're doing
33:36
, you know like , okay , why is this dog
33:38
finding it unpleasant and
33:40
can we safely set
33:43
up a scenario where this dog is now feeling
33:45
safe but also we are not
33:47
going to get hurt ? There are a couple of things
33:50
that groomers do that others
33:52
don't do , which is like reach
33:54
down to a dog you've never met oh , her name's
33:56
Bella and she's always been good for grooming
33:58
and reach down and pick that dog up . Think
34:01
about the invasive things . Everything about
34:03
grooming is evasive and intrusive . You
34:05
know trying to teach groomers about least intrusive
34:08
and minimally aversive when grooming
34:10
is intrusive and in many
34:12
cases , aversive just by
34:14
what we need to do so to keep
34:16
everything safe . Part of that is going to
34:18
be setting some boundaries for
34:21
when the dog is nervous
34:23
, what we're going to do and let go
34:25
of the idea that this grooming needs to
34:27
be completed and maybe have
34:29
a little checklist of what's most important
34:31
today . Is it getting around those eyes
34:33
? Is it getting the nails trimmed ? Is it getting
34:36
some length off ? Is it the bath ? And
34:38
letting go of the idea that everything needs to be
34:40
completed , because I'm trying
34:43
to make groomers understand that we don't sell
34:45
haircuts . We sell haircutting services
34:47
and many of these dogs are not well-prepared
34:49
for our services and in one fell swoop
34:51
we could teach them to be terrified .
34:55
How do you , from a business standpoint
34:57
, how do you suggest
34:59
groomers navigate that ? Let's say , okay , because
35:02
I'm unfamiliar with how that would
35:04
be built or how that works
35:06
. But let's say we've got to get
35:08
nails done , hair trim , bath
35:10
, you know the whole nine . And you go
35:12
in there and like , okay , all we could do is the nail trims
35:15
today or the bath today . Do
35:17
you then send the dog home because
35:19
you're noticing the dog's nervous and uncomfortable and
35:21
you want to be following
35:23
to make sure that this dog is comfortable and
35:26
we're not doing any damage here to the
35:28
dog's behavioral repertoire
35:30
, so to speak ? What do you do then
35:32
? Or what do groomers do then ? Do they still
35:34
charge for the full session , or how
35:36
does it work ?
35:38
I'm trying to encourage groomers to ask those four questions
35:40
that we went over so that they
35:42
have a better idea of what they're expecting
35:44
. But also maybe that first
35:47
grooming is the one where you're really finding out
35:49
how this dog feels about it , and
35:51
so because of that , you've already talked to your
35:53
owners about listen , we're going to
35:55
do a certain amount of time , Maybe it's
35:57
by the timeframe . As
35:59
a house call groomer , I will sometimes book
36:02
somebody like listen , your dog's not going to be able to
36:04
do a full grooming session , let's book
36:06
one hour . It has a start
36:08
and end . It has a price attached
36:10
to it that does not refer to our outcome
36:12
. You know , it's not like I
36:15
bought a pretty head . So if
36:18
we help people understand that this is the
36:20
effort involved because these
36:22
are professional services and not
36:24
necessarily the nail trim or the haircut
36:26
but we are working toward
36:29
effective nail trimming , haircutting
36:31
, bathing , drying for the future , I
36:34
love that it's very similar to training , especially
36:36
in aggression cases , is that we
36:38
are not going to complete the product
36:41
in one session .
36:42
So a lot of it for me is the educational
36:44
component in that initial exchange with
36:46
the client just talking through things how
36:49
it's going to work so you can set expectations
36:51
. It sounds very similar in that regard .
36:53
Very similar , very similar , and by
36:55
doing that then your owner can
36:57
ask you the questions and the owner
36:59
can say , but wait , so I mean he needs
37:01
to look good . You know we have company coming over this weekend
37:04
and we can have those finer
37:06
conversations , those more minute conversations
37:08
about let me see what I can do to make his
37:10
head pretty , but your
37:13
dog isn't well prepared for this . Grooming
37:15
is weird , it's really weird
37:18
. We are touching every little , teeny , tiny
37:20
millimeter of that dog , every
37:22
little tiny spot we're in their gums
37:25
, we're touching their teeth . We're
37:27
all over the place on that dog and for
37:29
a lot of our dogs that is really scary
37:31
.
37:33
Yeah , now what's a conversation
37:35
technique ? You would have
37:37
to convince the clients a little bit
37:39
more of that , really advocating
37:41
for their dog's needs and helping them understand , rather
37:44
than the client wants a pretty dog
37:46
for their guests coming over this weekend
37:48
. I'm sure that conversation comes up a lot
37:50
for you guys . And what are some tips for that
37:52
? For groomers listening in ?
37:54
It does come up a lot and I know a lot of groomers
37:57
are worried about what does that dog look like
37:59
when they leave my shop . But
38:01
that last little
38:03
bit of I need to make him perfect is
38:06
probably at that dog's past
38:08
that dog's limit . So
38:10
I actually started
38:12
my own business back in 2000 because
38:14
I was so tired of working with these
38:17
dogs during a grooming appointment and getting
38:19
them so that they're really good and having a boss tell
38:21
me but you can't go home looking like that
38:23
, you need to finish it . But
38:27
he can't go home looking like that , you need to finish it . And knowing that I
38:29
had made such progress and that the last 10 minutes dissolved
38:31
into , you know , fear
38:34
and snapping or whatever that
38:36
dog does when they respond to fear , which
38:38
might be aggression or it might be trying
38:41
to jump off the table or get away from us
38:43
, you know . So if in
38:45
those last couple of minutes at all just
38:48
made all of your work irrelevant
38:50
and sometimes that's what groomers need to hear
38:52
and owners need to hear like , oh yeah
38:55
, I don't want to undo the good
38:57
work that we're doing and also helping
38:59
them understand the future Puppies
39:01
that are being born right now in January
39:04
of 2024 will have grooming
39:06
needs till 2039
39:08
. Are we going to fight with that dog that
39:10
whole time ? It just doesn't even make sense and
39:13
sometimes that's what helps owners go whoa
39:15
, yeah , that's a long time of
39:17
fighting with a dog . We can teach
39:19
them to be good .
39:21
Yeah , yeah , it puts things in perspective
39:23
for sure for them . I want to take just
39:26
a step back again to the safety precautions
39:28
as well . You had mentioned the Elizabethan collar
39:30
we had touched based on muzzles that
39:32
could be used in some contexts . But what
39:35
else would you recommend for groomers ? Body
39:37
language , reading like what are some of your top
39:39
? Like if you had a brand new groomer and you're like you've
39:41
got to stay safe here , what are the
39:43
top ? Some of the top other things that
39:46
you would include .
39:46
I can tell you that a lot of groomers are using tools
39:48
like belly bands and the hammocks
39:51
and muzzles
39:53
and Elizabethan collars , and
39:55
I'm not against those or
39:57
really for those . I think that what's really
39:59
important is that , no matter what we
40:01
are using , it's about how the
40:03
dog perceives this moment
40:05
. This moment matters . Is the dog
40:08
being held still so that we can get something
40:10
completed , or is this dog actually
40:12
finding this comforting ? Things like
40:14
hammocks and belly bands for an older dog who's
40:16
having trouble standing some of them relax
40:18
into that . Happy hoodies
40:20
are another thing that it's almost like a terrycloth
40:23
snood . It just goes up around their ears . It's almost
40:25
like a terrycloth snood , like it just goes up around their ears
40:27
. It's almost like a headband to help protect them
40:29
from sound . Some dogs find that really
40:31
reassuring . Other dogs find that really
40:34
constricting and scary . So , no
40:36
matter what we're using , our goal
40:38
is to assess is this helping this
40:40
dog have a better experience today
40:42
and also as groomers
40:44
? If you are really worried about a dog
40:47
, I want you to take that inner knowledge
40:49
you're picking up on something you
40:51
know and say am I in over my
40:53
head ? Is this dog at a point that
40:55
this is dangerous ? Groomers
40:57
are masters at body language
41:00
. They learn that very , very
41:02
quickly and they're really
41:04
good at recognizing body language . What we're not
41:06
well trained on is why that
41:08
body language is happening , what it means
41:10
and what we can do about it .
41:14
Tell me more .
41:15
Yeah , so you know when you , when
41:17
you reach into a crate to
41:20
pull a dog out , you know I
41:22
want you to think about the dog grooming
41:25
clientele , almost like shelter work . You
41:28
know , many times we don't know these dogs . You
41:30
know and you start noticing body language
41:32
. You see that dog stiffen and give you the eye
41:35
, but are you savvy
41:37
enough with behavior to know what that means
41:39
or how to help ? But if
41:41
we're always thinking , can I help return this
41:43
dog to calm and help this dog cope
41:45
with the situation they're in , that's
41:47
a very safe mindset . Does
41:50
that answer your question ?
41:51
Totally , and it
41:54
completely resonates with the shelter side
41:56
of things you were just using that example where , yes
41:58
, they become really good shelter
42:00
handlers meaning they are really
42:03
good at reading body language and what could
42:05
potentially happen next in terms of biting
42:07
, snapping , growling .
42:08
Yeah , they're three chess moves ahead . They
42:10
see it and they're like I know what happens next
42:13
.
42:14
Yes , yeah , and that just comes from hands-on
42:16
experience . That's why I recommend trainers volunteer
42:18
with shelters as much as they can , because that's the
42:21
best way to get hands-on not only with
42:23
the dogs but reading the dogs and reading
42:25
recognizing body language . It's such a crucial
42:27
skill to stay safe . But
42:29
the underlying you touched on it really well there
42:31
, chrissy is that the underlying emotions
42:34
and what could be motivating that dog's body
42:36
language or the emotional responses
42:38
we're seeing , right , that
42:40
can make the difference with how
42:43
to really empathize and when
42:45
to take next steps with that dog . And
42:47
so , in that regard , how
42:50
do you teach groomers to kind of know
42:52
when to push or stop
42:54
or push or stick ? Sometimes they call
42:56
it in training and you
42:59
know you have . We were talking like examples
43:01
before about you know you've got a
43:03
dog mid-shampoo and then suddenly the
43:05
dog is freezing or showing some signs . You're
43:07
like uh-oh , you know . So it's not a situation
43:10
where you can be like , oh , we're going to just stop because this dog
43:12
is nervous . You know there's certain instances like
43:14
that , but also instances you could be like mid-shave
43:17
and be like do I continue with this shave ? So
43:19
talk us through that a little bit more .
43:21
You know , I think if you can't get that dog
43:23
to calm down again , you
43:25
know , if you're not able to help return
43:28
them to calm and returning them to calm
43:30
doesn't necessarily mean you have to all stop
43:32
it might be that you turn off a tool
43:35
and maybe this dog you've already realized
43:37
that this dog likes a little bit of petting Some
43:39
of our toy breeds like a good snuggle . You
43:42
know Some of our goldens just need somebody to . You know , reassure them
43:44
, give them some baby talk . You know some of our goldens just need somebody to . You know , reassure
43:46
them , give them some baby talk . You know it really
43:48
depends on that dog and what that dog is motivated
43:50
by . But if we circle back
43:52
to , did I effectively help
43:55
you calm down again and how
43:57
do you feel when I turn the tool on ? And
44:00
that's part of why we need to be thinking about
44:02
how the dog is experiencing
44:04
this in this moment . Because if we
44:06
just continue which is what I see a lot of
44:08
groomers who are like boy , something
44:10
happened to this dog in the past . I don't know
44:12
what's going on , but maybe he needs some training
44:14
. Well , they're continuing with
44:17
what is a really unfortunate event
44:19
in this dog's life . You know this dog is
44:21
having a really hard time and they're having
44:23
a hard time not giving us a hard time . That's
44:26
a a big mind shift for many groomers
44:28
. The dog grooming world is still
44:30
very much um wrapped
44:32
up in dominance and you
44:34
know I don't want to say all groomers , but it's
44:36
still very , very common to hear things
44:38
like he needs to know better , he
44:41
needs to respect you , and
44:43
most of these problems we're seeing are not
44:45
respect based . They are
44:47
this is really uncomfortable , or
44:49
this is frightening , or maybe they're uncomfortable
44:52
because they are sore . We have a
44:54
lot of health issues with our dogs that
44:56
are still getting groomed . You know some of these
44:58
dogs are experiencing hip pain and
45:00
knee pain while we're trying to stand
45:03
them in a tub and stand them on a table and
45:05
pushing their boundaries further than they can handle
45:07
. So it's really important for us to look at that individual
45:10
dog and help our owners
45:12
understand that I am trying to do
45:14
what's right for your dog , for you and for your
45:16
dog , and this is about helping your
45:19
dog have the best experience so that we can continue
45:21
on for the rest of their life you
45:25
on for the rest of their life .
45:27
Yeah , yeah , and I was just
45:29
thinking along those lines of just like training . You start to get to know that individual dog and
45:31
what , where they can be sort of made
45:34
to go along a little bit further along . You
45:36
kind of decide , okay , this dog is ready for the next
45:38
steps versus this dog needs to stop , because
45:40
you start to really recognize
45:42
the conversation you're having with that particular animal
45:45
right .
45:45
Absolutely , absolutely , absolutely .
45:48
Do you have another thought on that ?
45:50
Well , I think that if we're helping the dogs be
45:52
calm and that's my mantra , I
45:54
say it all the time but checking
45:56
to see if they're comfortable with things , then
45:58
you're also being more aware of
46:00
when that change happens . So
46:03
if you're actively thinking about like
46:05
okay , well , wait a minute . I
46:07
noticed him get uncomfortable when I picked up the tool Well
46:10
, that's something that we can apply
46:12
a particular process to right . We
46:14
can create a new CER for that . But
46:17
often we're just
46:19
thinking like nail trimming is the thing that that
46:21
dog was worried about , but was it
46:23
, you know , like let's step
46:25
back and notice when we lose that
46:28
calmness , when that dog starts
46:30
to stiffen or give us the eye or try to
46:32
jump off the table or whatever that thing may be
46:34
. But if we're focusing in on calm
46:36
and always being aware of what this dog is experiencing
46:39
, we're more likely to notice when the change
46:41
happened and then we can really
46:43
assess how do we fix that little piece
46:45
? There are lots of puzzle pieces , which
46:48
is fascinating for us as trainers For
46:50
groomers . That's the frustrating part , just
46:53
teach me . I don't want them to bite me . They
46:57
don't find that part neat .
47:00
Yes . So on that note
47:02
of biting dogs , what are some
47:04
considerations for dogs that do have
47:07
a bite history in a grooming setting
47:09
? So client comes to a groomer
47:11
, like , okay , I've been trying groomers but the last
47:13
groomer we got fired from because the dog
47:15
bit the groomer so we can muzzle the dog
47:18
. We're working at a home with our trainer , so
47:20
they're making the steps . But considerations
47:23
for both groomers and trainers for dogs that
47:25
do have a bite history , do you pick certain
47:27
groomers or do you have somebody that's very experienced
47:29
? Do you have like a network of people ? Tell me more about
47:31
what you do with the dogs that bite .
47:34
You know , I know a lot of groomers don't want
47:36
to use muzzles . However , I
47:38
feel that if you have a dog with a bite history
47:40
, first thing I want to do
47:42
is teach them to be comfortable with a muzzle . And
47:44
to be comfortable with a muzzle , not just wear one
47:47
, but to be comfortable with one , so that we can
47:49
each perceive that like , ah , biting
47:51
is no longer on the table , which for some
47:53
dogs . They realize that I know
47:55
that's very anthropomorphic and how can I prove
47:57
that ? But they change their tactic
48:00
if they are wearing a muzzle
48:02
and we're still proceeding as
48:04
if that dog's comfort is
48:06
the most important thing . So
48:08
hopefully they're learning . Hmm
48:11
wait , I wiggled a little bit and they
48:13
tried to calm me down again . This
48:16
isn't the party I had at the last
48:18
place . You know . This isn't the way it went down
48:20
last time . We're making those efforts
48:22
to help the dog be calm , but
48:24
there are . If you are inexperienced
48:27
or you're worried , honor that and
48:29
send that dog to somebody else . You know
48:31
, and I
48:33
don't want to recommend meds or not
48:35
recommend meds , but let's talk to our
48:37
veterinarian and have our owners talk to our veterinarian
48:39
about . Is there something that this dog maybe
48:42
we can help this dog have a better experience
48:45
in these moments and set
48:47
it up for the most success .
48:52
Is there like , for instance , with the training world
48:54
? We have folks like myself that
48:56
specialize in aggression . Do you see
48:58
the same thing happening in the grooming world , where
49:00
some groomers are like I will take the biting dogs because
49:03
that's my specialty . I like working with the fearful
49:05
dogs . The dogs that have issues with grooming is like
49:07
really at a high level . Are
49:09
there people focusing on that and your side
49:11
of things ?
49:12
You know there really are . There are a lot of people out there
49:14
saying like , hey , we can do better . There
49:17
are lots of different approaches , but there are people who are
49:19
definitely like , yeah , I will . I want to work
49:21
with your shy pup , I want to work with your shy pup , I want to work with your scared
49:23
pup or I want to work with your aggressive
49:26
dog . I train some of
49:28
those people , so I have some of
49:30
those people going through my course . But
49:36
there are other ways to do it too . I know a lot of groomers have taken the fear-free certifications
49:38
because they are really interested in this . But what happens
49:40
is is that it can be really tricky
49:42
if they work for somebody and
49:45
they have a business owner telling them like
49:47
I don't understand how we make money on this . You
49:50
know , I don't understand how this works . We
49:52
do haircuts , but sometimes
49:56
I can help them reach that business
49:58
owner by saying an injured dog
50:00
can cost you thousands of dollars
50:02
and this is
50:04
unsafe . Doing it the old way is unsafe
50:06
. If we set this up to be as safe as possible
50:09
and we're charging for our time , we
50:11
have lost nothing .
50:14
Yes , I like that , and
50:17
an injured employee will cost thousands more
50:19
when you think about it . So you know , you want
50:21
somebody taking every step to ensure
50:23
that dog doesn't bite .
50:24
I mean , I have business insurance , but I have
50:26
a $500 deductible . You
50:29
know , a nicked dog could easily cost
50:31
a thousand , a couple thousand . You
50:34
know like injuries happen . We are using sharp
50:36
instruments and often
50:38
we are a millimeter away from their skin
50:40
.
50:41
think about what it takes to trim near an eye
50:43
yeah , a lot of skill yeah in
50:46
my mind , because that's not
50:48
my area of expertise now
50:51
and nor do I want it to be at
50:53
this point , but so
50:55
so let's talk about food
50:58
a little bit , because we haven't talked about using food . With
51:00
regards to safety and distraction , you
51:03
know you've seen some . I've seen some techniques
51:05
where you know , somebody might smear peanut butter
51:07
on the side of a scale or use some sort of food
51:09
tube or something that the dog can be distracted
51:11
by while the procedure is being done . Do
51:14
you see that commonly used we're
51:16
seeing it more and more .
51:18
But there are some concerns with using
51:20
food in a grooming environment , and
51:22
part of that is related to how
51:24
much history you took on that individual
51:26
dog , Because some of our
51:28
dogs are resource guarders and owners are never
51:30
going to think to tell a groomer that . So
51:33
there should be , if you're going to use food , some
51:35
discussions about what is he like with
51:37
food . Should be , if you're going to use food , some discussions
51:39
about what is he like with food . Because
51:42
if you can imagine a dog that doesn't want anyone to go near his dish and you're trying to trim
51:44
his nails while he licks a lick mat , that could be really dangerous
51:46
. But also all of the other
51:49
dogs in the room could have
51:51
an effect because of that food
51:53
. You know , like I smell peanut
51:55
butter , there's bacon happening over there , or
51:57
the squeeze cheese , and maybe it just makes
51:59
them extra silly and wiggly . Maybe
52:01
they start resource guarding Like this
52:03
table smells like something awesome
52:06
and I don't want anyone near my table
52:08
, you know . So we have to really
52:10
think about that . In the grooming setting , we are
52:12
not just working with one dog and
52:14
it's not our dog . I don't know
52:16
this dog the same way I know my own
52:18
dogs . It's a little bit more like would you
52:21
do it with a shelter dog in
52:23
a room full of other shelter dogs . You know a
52:25
dog that maybe you don't know all that well and doesn't
52:27
know you . But for
52:29
people who are using treats often
52:32
what they're doing is using , like the liver
52:34
treats or something like that that doesn't
52:36
create a mess , it's be easier
52:38
to clean up , Doesn't have lingering
52:40
scent you know that well . We
52:42
can't really perceive what dogs smell , but isn't
52:45
super charged up scent , right
52:47
Like it's just kind of a treat , something yummy , some
52:49
morsel of something or other , and doing
52:52
a lot of cleaning in between , probably
52:54
booking their day differently so
52:56
that they can have a dog with a really treat heavy
52:58
session , which
53:00
often requires two people .
53:02
That's what I was just going to ask you is how
53:05
to ? Because you had mentioned earlier , there's so many
53:07
tools . We've got so much going on with our hands
53:09
already . It's almost impossible if you're going
53:11
to be treating a dog while grooming or doing some
53:13
actual procedure . So that's where those
53:15
licky mats or those food tubes something that can
53:17
dispense the food without
53:20
having your hands on can be helpful
53:22
. But yes , it's absolutely important
53:24
to look at the resource guarding component
53:26
as well .
53:28
And also is it going
53:30
to create a mess on that dog's face that you're trying to
53:32
trim . Right , you
53:34
know that dog's now
53:36
licking everything and you're like I got your face all
53:38
nice and dry , I think , because
53:40
as humans we often get our haircut wet . You
53:43
might not know that to do a nice , proper
53:45
dog haircut , we do that dry . So
53:47
they've been bathed , dried and
53:50
now we're doing a haircut . And
53:52
if there's peanut butter in their hair that's
53:54
not going to be very helpful .
53:57
So it's very context . In situation specific
54:00
, it sounds like when you're going to use food , when
54:02
you can't use food , and you know . Something
54:04
else I thought about , as well as the comorbidity
54:07
with some resource guarding dogs also
54:09
have handling issues , so they don't want to
54:11
be touched and as trainers we sometimes
54:13
see this a resource guarding case dog that guards
54:16
their food bowl also doesn't like to
54:18
be handled and
54:24
that typically is revealed in the historical data we collect or the information we get from the
54:26
client which customers don't really give groomers that information
54:28
which ?
54:28
is why I encourage those four questions Like
54:31
know what you're getting into ? Because owners
54:33
think , well , I'm just going to pay to have somebody do it
54:35
, you know . And they don't realize
54:38
that that's it's not our job to get hurt . A
54:40
lot of these owners don't realize they have a problem
54:42
. Of course he goes crazy if somebody goes near his food
54:44
dish or I would never go near him if he had
54:47
a bone on the couch . We can't sit on the couch if
54:49
he's chewing a toy , but they don't tell
54:51
us that . So even if we want to use something
54:53
like treats , it requires a little
54:55
bit more forethought to find
54:57
out what's going on with this particular dog . But
54:59
maybe we didn't think about that with the dog two
55:01
tables down .
55:03
Yeah , yeah , a lot of these
55:05
issues can be alleviated by just good
55:07
communication with the client and asking the right
55:09
questions , and I love that
55:11
there's like this educational component to it
55:13
too for our clients , meaning we're
55:16
them or or giving them the information
55:18
they need to be . What else to be aware of ? It's
55:20
not just send the dog off like to
55:22
to auto body shop and it's like boom
55:24
comes back . It's .
55:25
There's a lot of details we want to know about to
55:27
ensure the best possible outcome for
55:29
all involved and I use auto
55:31
body shop examples that there's
55:33
a point where if I bring
55:35
my car to the shop , they give me the brake
55:37
job I need or they don't do the
55:40
brake work . I
55:42
don't get to pick and choose what happens in my brake
55:44
job , you know . So if we're like listen , as
55:46
your groomer , I need to help
55:48
him be comfortable with this . I can't give you
55:50
the nail trim you thought you wanted If
55:52
it involves like four people and
55:54
a muzzle and just get it done , like
55:56
that's trying to tell the mechanic how to do my
55:58
breaks . And as a professional
56:01
we need to be able to say like listen , we know that makes
56:03
it worse , that's dangerous . Someone's
56:05
going to get hurt , much like your break job . If
56:07
you don't get your break job done right , it's
56:10
going to make things worse .
56:12
Yeah , yeah , that's a good analogy . So
56:15
let's segue into a little bit about breeds
56:17
, because we do like to talk about breed characteristics
56:19
on this show . So we could talk
56:22
about it from a grooming and a training standpoint . So
56:24
grooming , obviously you might think of doodles
56:26
or something where it's going to be different than grooming a Doberman
56:28
. But what about from the behavior
56:30
aspect ? So from your trainer lens , if
56:33
you were to say , okay , we've got to be considerate
56:35
around this particular breed because they're more
56:37
prone to be suspicious of handling
56:40
or touching , would you say there's
56:42
any particular breeds you're cautious of or
56:44
just more aware of when you're starting
56:46
the grooming process ?
56:48
I would say I talk to a lot of groomers
56:50
about understanding our terriers better
56:52
. Because if we look at what terriers
56:54
were bred to do , their I'm
56:56
uncomfortable response is
56:59
often aggressive , like hey , I'm uncomfortable
57:02
, they're not going to freeze , they're not going to try to
57:04
run away Like that . We bred that
57:06
into them . So to know that ahead of time and
57:08
just help them be comfortable so that we don't see that response
57:11
. They aren't particularly aggressive
57:13
. They're not naughty dogs and I hate the term spicy
57:15
, but people use spicy but
57:18
if we look at what they were bred to
57:20
do , when they're uncomfortable , yeah
57:23
, they're going to go off and do a kill rat
57:25
behavior . So we need to think about that . But
57:28
also , I'd say it's not so much the breeds
57:30
as much as it's some
57:33
of these doodles . These poodle mixes have
57:35
really complicated coats and
57:37
lots of complicated grooming needs . So
57:40
there are a lot of problems with those breeds
57:42
if they are not well-versed in the kind
57:44
of things we need to do . Because by
57:46
five months old a doodle is probably
57:49
matted and they're
57:51
coming in for their first grooming at five months
57:53
old . They probably need to be
57:55
clipped down all the way , probably
58:00
need to be clipped down all the way and that's exhausting , first of all , like the . The kind of expectations
58:02
for some of these coat types and their grooming needs
58:04
mean that they need to do a longer endurance
58:07
run . They get touched all over
58:09
with more stuff and things , so
58:11
my border collies don't know what it's like to
58:13
have their body clipped , because that's not part of
58:15
what their breed gets . But
58:17
these doodles and we're seeing so many
58:20
of them we need to think about like this dog
58:22
is going to be asked a lot more
58:24
. They're going to need to do a lot more than like
58:26
the average golden .
58:28
Yeah , yeah , doodles
58:30
are the talk of the town for , I
58:32
think , trainers and groomers , and I
58:34
love them .
58:35
I love them , but if you're not thinking
58:37
about their we referenced
58:39
Kim Brophy's book quite a bit like but the
58:41
standard poodle and a golden retriever , that's
58:44
a golden doodle , that's all hunting
58:46
dog Like we would . We would not
58:48
expect a young golden retriever to
58:50
put up with the kind of things that we're trying to do
58:53
with a young doodle . You
58:55
know they're an adolescent , they're goofy
58:57
. Young
59:02
doodle . They're an adolescent , they're goofy . They have no patience at all . Yet they have a coat
59:04
type that's going to take two
59:06
hours or more .
59:08
Yeah yeah , interesting point , interesting point
59:10
. So I'd like to hear about
59:12
maybe one case that you've had
59:14
a grooming experience that really resonated
59:17
in your mind , whether it was something really difficult or
59:19
something that had a really wonderful outcome . Can you think
59:21
of something you can share with the audience ?
59:24
So I had a little old dog who when
59:26
she would get excited she was , she came
59:28
to me as a new customer because she
59:30
was starting to have seizures if she got really excited
59:33
. So at 16
59:35
, like starting up with a
59:37
new groomer and they thought , you know , let's just
59:40
do whatever we can with her and
59:42
trying to help her be comfortable with things
59:44
that maybe she was never comfortable with before
59:46
. And we did , and we did
59:48
not have any seizures , we didn't get
59:50
her worked up and I think a lot of people
59:53
would have given up on the dog that age
59:55
. But she can't be sedated
59:57
for grooming , she's much too old for that
59:59
. She's frail , she's fragile , she has health
1:00:01
issues . So to think about , how
1:00:03
can we come up with a plan that's
1:00:06
going to work for an older
1:00:08
dog with known medical issues ? And
1:00:10
I circle back to can
1:00:13
we just work on calm , comfortable and
1:00:15
know ? And that's what we did , because even
1:00:17
an older dog who may not have the
1:00:20
cognitive ability to learn new things
1:00:22
can respond well to someone trying
1:00:24
to help them feel comfortable .
1:00:26
Yeah , it resonates so much
1:00:28
when you think about an example of
1:00:30
somebody you know restraining
1:00:33
an old , a senior person you
1:00:35
know , and just holding it about , just getting it done with
1:00:37
, and just how awful that would be and we don't think
1:00:39
about that sometimes with dogs .
1:00:41
And if I had known her earlier in her life , we
1:00:44
might have avoided all of that instead
1:00:47
of groomings that she never felt comfortable
1:00:49
with , but now , as an older , frail
1:00:52
dog , the behavior became
1:00:54
hard for the groomer to complete
1:00:56
. Does that make sense ?
1:00:58
Absolutely yes . It's more about what the dog is experiencing than what the groomer to complete . Does that make sense ? Absolutely yes , it's more about
1:01:00
what the dog is experiencing than what the groomer
1:01:03
is experiencing . Yes
1:01:06
, the moral here is let's get our dogs into
1:01:08
these grooming environments early on and
1:01:10
let's get them acclimated in the way we want
1:01:12
them to so they're comfortable .
1:01:14
Yeah , I love it , and dogs that came to
1:01:16
me fairly young , with a fairly young with . You know
1:01:19
a bite history . I'm thinking of one particular
1:01:21
Bichon . When I got him used
1:01:23
to it and calm about it that never
1:01:26
came back . I remember one
1:01:28
day we were grooming and I nicked
1:01:30
his pad . So here he's
1:01:32
bleeding and it didn't come back . You
1:01:35
know that trust is long lasting
1:01:37
and if they can learn to be comfortable
1:01:40
with the process , I felt so awful
1:01:42
. The poor little guy . But we're using sharp
1:01:44
tools on moving dogs and
1:01:46
it wasn't really his fault , just you
1:01:48
know . But it did not turn into
1:01:50
. I'm going to bite you now . It did
1:01:53
not revert back to what he was when I met
1:01:55
him .
1:01:56
Yes , that trust and that relationship was
1:01:58
built .
1:01:59
Yeah .
1:01:59
That currency was in that account for you for that
1:02:01
little time teaching them to be comfortable
1:02:03
with the things .
1:02:04
So therefore it wasn't a thing that hurt
1:02:06
him . Does that make sense ? Absolutely
1:02:09
.
1:02:10
Absolutely , chrissy . Where
1:02:12
can people find you if you want ? They want to learn more about
1:02:14
your courses , what you're teaching , where can they
1:02:16
go ?
1:02:23
So I have a podcast Creating Great Grooming Dogs , which each episode is a 20-minute training
1:02:25
session , really a discussion session about some aspect of teaching
1:02:27
dogs to be good for grooming or other types
1:02:29
of cooperative care . Right
1:02:32
now there are 192 episodes
1:02:34
, which is about 63 hours of free
1:02:36
content . I
1:02:38
also teach at Whole Pet Grooming Academy
1:02:40
and I'm one of the educators there and
1:02:42
I teach the Master Groomer Behavior Specialist
1:02:44
Diploma Program there . So that's
1:02:47
another good way to find me , and
1:02:49
I have another podcast that I started up , but
1:02:51
the Knowledgeable Pet Owner . I started
1:02:53
that up with a couple other groomer friends one who's
1:02:55
also a vet tech and one who does
1:02:58
a lot of business speaking for the grooming industry
1:03:00
. That was another project we're doing
1:03:02
to help owners and help owners understand
1:03:05
a little bit more about owning their dog
1:03:07
and neat things that they can do with their dog
1:03:09
.
1:03:09
Fantastic , and as usual , I'll link to all
1:03:12
of those in the show notes . And Chrissy
1:03:14
will also be doing something special for aggressivedogcom
1:03:17
later this year , so stay tuned for that as well
1:03:20
. Chrissy , thank you so much . This
1:03:22
was wonderful talking with you and
1:03:24
I hope to have you on again in the future
1:03:26
.
1:03:27
Thank you so much for having me .
1:03:30
I'm really glad we had the opportunity to
1:03:32
do an episode on all things grooming
1:03:34
and enjoyed this conversation with Christine
1:03:36
. Things
1:03:40
grooming and enjoyed this conversation with Christine . Stay tuned , because Christine
1:03:42
is also giving a course , along with our good friend and colleague , monique Fairchild
1:03:44
, for AggressiveDogcom in the fall
1:03:46
of 2024 , on safe handling
1:03:48
, for any time we need to provide care
1:03:51
for dogs , whether in the grooming setting
1:03:53
or in the veterinary setting , which
1:03:55
is Monique's specialty . These
1:03:57
two have teamed up to create a one-of-a-kind course that
1:04:00
is not available anywhere else . So
1:04:02
stay tuned for more details on that , as
1:04:04
I'll be sending out an email to everyone subscribed
1:04:06
to the newsletter , which you can do , if you
1:04:08
haven't already done so , by going
1:04:11
to aggressivedogcom and
1:04:13
don't forget , while you're there . You can learn more about helping dogs
1:04:15
with aggression , from the Aggression in Dogs
1:04:17
Master Course to webinars from world-renowned
1:04:19
experts and even an annual conference
1:04:22
. We have options for both pet pros and
1:04:24
pet owners to learn more about aggression
1:04:26
in dogs . We also have the Help for
1:04:28
Dogs with Aggression bonus episodes that
1:04:30
you can subscribe to . These are solo
1:04:32
shows where I walk you through how to work with a variety
1:04:34
of types of aggression , such as resource guarding
1:04:37
, dog-to-dog aggression , territorial
1:04:39
aggression , fear-based aggression and much
1:04:42
, much more . You can find a link to subscribe
1:04:44
in the show notes or by hitting the subscribe button
1:04:46
if you're listening in on Apple Podcasts
1:04:48
. Thanks for listening
1:04:50
in and , as always , stay well , my friends , friends
1:04:53
, friends , friends , friends
1:04:56
, friends , friends , friends
1:05:09
friends
1:05:12
, friends , friends
1:05:19
, my friends .
1:05:19
I smell peanut butter . There's
1:05:21
bacon happening over there .
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