0:02

In the season finale of the Bitey End of the Dog

0:04

, I have the honor of chatting with none

0:07

other than Dr Danny Mills . Danny

0:09

is someone I could talk to for hours and hours

0:11

and we have a more free-flowing conversation

0:14

in this episode on everything from the definition

0:16

of aggression in his mind to

0:19

the emotions of dogs to effective

0:21

neuroscience . He truly

0:23

is someone with a lifetime of insight and experience

0:26

and I'm sure you're going to enjoy this episode

0:28

. Danny is an RCVS

0:30

, european and ASAP recognized

0:33

specialist in clinical animal behavior

0:35

and has been developing and exploring new

0:38

interventions for behavior problems , such

0:40

as the use of semiochemicals

0:42

to control the emotional reactions

0:44

of animals . Over the last 25

0:47

years , he has led the development of

0:49

what has become known as the psychobiological

0:51

approach to clinical animal

0:53

behavior at Lincoln . This

0:55

synthesizes contemporary behavioral biology

0:57

and psychology with neuroscience

1:00

to develop a systematic

1:02

scientific approach to the assessment

1:04

of problem behavior in animals . He

1:06

also consults at the University Animal

1:09

Behavior Clinic . In 2022

1:11

, he was listed by Stanford University

1:13

in their database of the top 1%

1:16

of sighted scientists globally

1:18

, and if you are enjoying the bitey end of the

1:20

dog , you can support the podcast by going

1:22

to aggressivedogcom , where

1:25

there's a variety of resources to learn more about helping

1:27

dogs with aggression issues , including

1:29

the upcoming Aggression and Dogs Conference happening

1:32

from October 11th to 13th 2024

1:34

in Scottsdale , arizona , with

1:37

both in-person and online options

1:39

. You can also learn more about the Aggression and

1:41

Dogs Master Course , which is the

1:43

most comprehensive course available anywhere in

1:45

the world for learning how to work with

1:47

and help dogs with aggression issues . I

1:50

also have a wide variety of webinars , upcoming

1:52

courses , videos and articles , all

1:55

from the foremost experts in training and

1:57

behavior . We really are

1:59

your one-stop shop for all

2:02

things related to aggression in dogs

2:04

. Hey

2:12

, everyone , welcome back to the Bitey End of the Dog . This week we have a guest that I've been

2:14

trying to get in touch with for a long time . I think it'd be easier to get hold of

2:16

the Beatles than it is for

2:18

me to get hold of Daniel Mills . Dr

2:20

Daniel Mills is here to join us and I'm really excited

2:22

to jump right into this conversation . Welcome to

2:25

the show .

2:25

Thank you . Thank you for the invite . Sorry

2:28

if I'm harder to get hold of than people who are dead . Not

2:32

a good start , is it ?

2:33

Well , you're obviously in high demand and

2:36

I appreciate you taking the time . I know how busy

2:38

you are . I was reviewing

2:40

some of the papers that you've written and didn't realize just

2:42

how many you've had . I

2:50

mean hundreds of papers and studies that you've done , which is just amazing and so important

2:52

to us as trainers and folks like me that are practitioners in the field to be able to extrapolate

2:54

the science that you're able to research

2:57

and find out for the rest of us . So thank

2:59

you for the work you're doing . Let's start off

3:01

really quickly . I have had a lot of different guests

3:03

on the show with different lenses

3:05

of science , coming from different backgrounds , and

3:07

I kind of like to ask the question how do you

3:09

define aggression ? If

3:12

you had an elevator pitch , somebody's asking like

3:14

Daniel , how do you define aggression ? What would it ?

3:16

be so , perhaps controversially

3:18

. I don't think of aggression as a behavior

3:20

.

3:21

There we go that got you straight away , didn't it ?

3:26

of behavior . There we go . That got you straight away , didn't it ? To me , aggression is somebody's interpretation

3:28

of behavior , because it's basically somebody reporting

3:30

that they think that harm is going to

3:32

happen from what they're observing

3:34

. Whether or not that's the case

3:37

is another matter , and that's one of

3:39

the big problems with studying aggression . I

3:41

think that people often think it's a behavior

3:44

, but when we've looked at the literature

3:46

and the way that people do

3:48

the research , sometimes they don't define it and for some

3:50

people aggression means a bite , other

3:52

people it means a growl . If you're playing

3:54

with a dog and he happens to catch his tooth on you

3:57

and draws blood , people say , well , that's aggressive

3:59

, well , it can be . So

4:01

I've actually made a large chunk

4:03

of my career out of looking

4:05

how we use words and trying to just

4:08

get some standardization into it , because

4:10

we often make the assumption

4:12

that when somebody uses a term

4:14

, they're using it in the same way as us , and

4:17

it's a big , big problem in relation to behavior

4:19

, I think , and behavior conditions right across

4:22

the board , not just with aggression , things

4:24

like separation , anxiety , as well what

4:27

it actually means , and we

4:29

have got to be really , really careful . So

4:31

I talk about aggressive behavior

4:33

and I try and I know

4:35

I still slip into it . But I try and avoid

4:38

the word aggression itself because it

4:40

makes people think that it's a defined behavioral

4:42

unit that you can link

4:44

to a particular stimulus or anything like

4:46

that , and I think

4:48

that's misleading . As I said , aggressive behavior

4:50

is a style of behavior . It's a way

4:52

of responding to a particular situation in

4:54

a certain circumstance and

4:57

often it's somebody's interpretation

4:59

the observer's , you know , a third party

5:01

, or sometimes it's the person who's the

5:03

victim or potential victim , or feel that they're

5:06

going to be the potential victim even if they're

5:08

not , and that you know . I

5:10

think failure to recognize

5:12

that can lead to all sorts of problems .

5:14

I agree , actually , and you know now that you've

5:17

kind of dove into that a little

5:19

bit more , even though my website is called

5:21

aggressivedogcom , I try to

5:23

actually avoid using those terms aggression

5:25

or aggressive when describing a dog

5:27

. You know , and like you , I'd rather just focus

5:30

on the actual observable behaviors , because

5:32

the interpretations when people start

5:34

labeling things like that can really

5:37

be unfair for the dog , right

5:39

?

5:39

Yeah , you touch on the second

5:41

point , which is the aggressive dog . And

5:44

as soon as you label the dog , then people

5:46

see everything that dog does through that

5:48

lens . It's an aggressive dog and

5:51

I know we're probably going to end up talking about dangerous

5:53

dogs at one point . But immediately everything

5:55

that a dog does

5:58

gets labeled as being done because that dog is an aggressive dog done

6:00

because that dog is an aggressive dog . And

6:02

when it does things that ordinary dogs do well , people

6:05

still see it as well it's because he's

6:07

an aggressive dog . I don't know if

6:09

you're familiar . There's

6:16

the classic experiment by Rosenhan where he got some of his students to go into

6:18

psychiatric hospitals saying that they could hear noises and after that they were

6:20

to behave normally and

6:22

they kept notes and

6:25

he wanted to see how long it took for them to get

6:27

discharged . Well , after several months he had

6:29

to go and rescue some of them because

6:31

everything they did then was seen through them

6:33

having mental illness and

6:36

people couldn't see the normality of it . And

6:38

the same will go with an aggressive dog . You know , once somebody

6:40

labels that dog as aggressive , then

6:43

everything it does , every time he makes

6:45

the slightest little groan or anything like that , he's

6:47

always growling and you know that's because he's

6:49

nasty and it all becomes that

6:51

sort of self-fulfilling prophecy . I

6:53

think one of the things you know about as

6:56

humans , we naturally fall

6:58

into a thing called confirmation bias . It's

7:01

where we see what we want to . That proves

7:03

our point . It's

7:07

where we see what we want to . That proves our point as a scientist , what I try and do not always

7:09

successfully , but you try and step back from that and you try and

7:12

look for the evidence that can disprove

7:14

an idea and that's how you

7:16

make the progress sort of . Well , I know it

7:18

can't be that you can never prove your

7:20

point in science . Science is always about dealing

7:22

with uncertainty , never dealing with certainty

7:24

. So you know , just that sort

7:26

of nudging things along

7:29

and trying to make those incremental

7:31

changes and not just seeing what you want to

7:33

see .

7:35

I already like where this conversation is going , because the

7:37

way you're framing this is we really need to empathize

7:40

more with the dogs to understand

7:42

truly what's going on versus what we're

7:44

labeling them . That creates that

7:46

bias that you were just talking about . So

7:48

let's dive into that a little bit further the reasons

7:51

for aggressive behavior that we might witness

7:53

in animals and I've

7:55

really been looking at emotions in

7:57

dogs you know , much more so over the

7:59

last five to 10 years than I would have earlier

8:02

on in my career because I'd focused much on

8:04

behavior and sort of a behavior analytics

8:06

standpoint , looking at just the observable behaviors

8:08

and not really thinking too much about the

8:10

underlying reasons or motivations

8:12

as much as I do now , especially

8:15

with emotions . So in your book

8:17

Dog Bites , which I actually have on my desk here , you

8:19

have a number of other wonderful authors in

8:21

that book , so it's a great reference for anybody listening

8:24

in . Get that book Dog Bites , because it's got

8:26

some fascinating read . Just don't read it while you're eating

8:28

lunch , because there's some

8:30

pretty gory pictures in there .

8:32

be warned , unfortunately .

8:33

the bit on fatal dog attacks yes yes

8:35

, but you do talk about emotions , and

8:38

from an effective neuroscience model as

8:40

well . You had mentioned some of Pangsepp's work , which

8:42

I often reference when I'm talking

8:45

about emotions , but is that sort

8:47

of similar to what you're focusing on now ? Are you

8:49

still seeing emotions in dogs the same

8:51

way ?

8:52

Yeah , I mean , science makes progress and

8:54

I had the good fortune of meeting Jack Pangsepp

8:57

a number of times and he's

8:59

a very inspirational figure . One

9:01

of his most remarkable achievements was

9:03

he brought respectability

9:06

to talking about emotions in animals and it might

9:08

surprise people , you know , until 1998

9:10

, when he published the first edition of that dog it

9:13

was considered bad science

9:15

. A lot of the time to talk about this . What

9:17

I've been trying to do over the last 25

9:20

years or so is trying to

9:22

develop a more systematic approach , exactly

9:24

because of some of the issues that we've already touched

9:26

on . When I looked at

9:28

the sort of literature on

9:31

dog aggression in particular , what

9:33

I saw was that people were

9:35

using a number

9:37

of terms as if they were

9:39

different forms of aggression , when actually

9:41

they represented different psychological

9:44

constructs , and let me just explain what I

9:46

mean by that . So somebody

9:48

might say that this dog has got football-related

9:51

aggression , he's got possessive aggression and

9:54

he's got frustration-related aggression

9:56

, as if they're three different things , whereas

9:59

protecting the football tells you

10:01

the context . The protectiveness

10:03

is the motivation and

10:06

the frustration is the emotion that is linked

10:08

to protectiveness in that situation

10:10

, and it can be linked with

10:12

other emotions . We're not ever in one emotional

10:15

state . There's always a mixture of them , and

10:18

you know , the first thing that I really

10:20

wanted to do was try to separate

10:22

those things out so that you

10:25

know we recognize when we're talking about context

10:27

, ie the situation in which it occurs . We

10:29

recognize when we're talking about motivation , and

10:31

that is what the specific goal of

10:33

the behavior is . We use an adapted

10:36

version of applied behavioral analysis , as a

10:38

lot of people do there . However

10:40

, the step that we make that

10:42

is different is the sort of thing that will

10:44

make applied behaviors turn in their grave , which

10:47

is we use that not to

10:49

identify or just look at the contingencies

10:52

. We use it to make the

10:54

inference of the internal psychological

10:56

state , the motivation . What is the motivational

10:58

state of the animal ? And that's important because

11:01

that becomes a hypothesis that

11:03

we can test . We say

11:05

, well , if it is trying to protect , then

11:07

we predict this , let's test that and

11:09

let's see what goes on . The issue of

11:11

emotion so what emotions are unlike

11:13

? People sometimes talk about emotivations

11:15

as if they're the same thing , and I

11:18

see them as something quite different when you think about

11:20

the organization of behavior . The emotions

11:22

first of all . They tell you about

11:24

what is important , they set what is important

11:26

to you as an individual . And emotions

11:29

is what makes individuals different

11:31

. Two things we value them

11:33

differently . We look at that dog . We

11:35

look at that dog differently . He belongs to

11:37

you . You know he's your dog . I might

11:39

think he's a cute dog . You love him . Yeah

11:41

, they're different . It's

11:51

the same dog but it's processed and that's what the emotion does and it sets the tone for

11:53

the behaviors that we do in relation to that particular stimulus . So , yeah , the problem is that these

11:56

are internal psychological states that we can't measure

11:58

directly and people say , oh well , you know it's unscientific

12:00

to do that . Well , you know what ? I've never

12:02

seen an atom or a higgs boson , but

12:05

people can study it scientifically and

12:07

they invest a lot of money on it . So just because you

12:09

can't access something directly

12:12

, we need to get over this idea that

12:14

it can't be studied scientifically

12:16

. I think that it's important to understand

12:18

emotional states . Sometimes we

12:21

get a dog and they've got a range

12:23

of behavior problems and you can see that they're

12:25

all related to frustration . So

12:27

if I address the frustration of the dog , the

12:30

problems disappear . I don't have to address every

12:32

single problem , whereas if the dog

12:34

is very food bowl protective and

12:36

it's the only thing that he's aggressive over

12:38

then , yeah , treat the

12:41

behavior , treat the motivation , don't

12:43

worry so much about the emotion . And that's

12:45

the beauty of that sort of approach

12:47

, that it gives you that level of insight

12:49

. You know that you can start

12:52

to develop protocols

12:54

that make sense at a emotional

12:57

level or at a specific behavioral level

12:59

. Again , going back to what

13:01

we were saying earlier about people

13:03

seeing what they want to see , any given

13:05

behavior therapy , we don't know exactly

13:07

how it works and it's easy

13:10

to frame it according to what your belief system

13:12

is . That's all , well , do that . And it works

13:14

because of this ? Well , we don't know , it works

13:16

, great . But it's

13:18

only by testing it in a range of situations

13:21

do we start to say , actually , you know

13:23

what ? That's changing the emotion , that's not just

13:25

changing the motivation . We

13:27

talk about developing things like impulse control

13:29

exercises . Impulse

13:32

control exercises are about reducing

13:34

impulsivity across the board , and

13:36

some of the work that we've done , where we've trained the

13:38

animals using some of the exercises , we

13:41

see that they become less impulsive in

13:43

areas which they've never been trained

13:46

to , and that shows you that it's

13:48

having this effect on the general

13:50

behavioral tendency

13:52

rather than just addressing

13:54

particular motivations

13:56

, and it becomes much more efficient

13:58

that way yes , there's a lot

14:00

I want to unpack there .

14:02

Well , first , I'm feeling very validated because I

14:04

talk about emotions a lot in my presentations

14:06

, especially some of the negative , balanced

14:08

emotions and the sort of motivations

14:10

for some aggressive responses . So

14:12

fear or , if we're looking at a pancest

14:14

work , the systems of fear , or maybe rage or

14:16

anger , probably the two most common underlying

14:19

emotions or systems , I should

14:21

say , for the cases I see , and

14:24

then we could talk about some of the other systems

14:26

, or positive balance , or seeking , which I wouldn't

14:28

actually put into the aggressive category

14:31

or the aggressive behavior category , so like predation

14:33

, or a dog guarding their

14:35

livestock or something like that . Can you give me a

14:37

few of your thoughts on that ?

14:39

So okay , let me give you the controversial one

14:41

. First of all , there is an argument

14:43

, a philosophical argument , to say that aggression

14:46

is not related to fear .

14:48

I've heard that .

14:49

And let me unpack that for you then , because

14:52

, if you think about it , when an animal is

14:54

scared , it wants to avoid harm

14:56

. That's what fear is about , you know

14:58

, preventing harm . Fight

15:01

and flight and freeze are

15:03

the three Fs that are often talked about in

15:05

that situation . Well , flight

15:07

takes you out of harm's way . Freeze

15:09

and the important thing with freeze is freeze is not

15:12

the same as behavioral inhibition , and I think people confuse

15:14

that , but I'll come back to that one later . But

15:16

freezing , the purpose of freezing is not to

15:18

be detected and not to provoke . Yeah

15:21

, fight means

15:23

those safe strategies

15:26

are not working . So therefore

15:28

I have to defend myself . It

15:31

happens when frustration kicks in on

15:33

top of the fear . So the

15:35

aggression itself , whilst

15:37

it has its root in being

15:40

in fear , the actual

15:42

control processes for

15:44

the aggressive acts may

15:46

well lie much more closely

15:48

aligned with frustration . Because

15:51

I can't escape , I need to take

15:53

some control of the situation , which is what frustration

15:55

is about autonomy . Therefore

15:58

, I have to defend myself . So

16:00

pure fear , some

16:02

people may argue , doesn't result

16:05

in aggression . It's when I've

16:07

got no escape I am

16:09

frustrated , whilst I'm scared . Again

16:11

, picking up on the Panksepp thing , people sometimes

16:14

think oh well , the animal's in one of these emotions

16:16

. Our brain is made up of living

16:18

cells . All our emotions are active

16:21

. They're held in control by

16:23

inhibition . And again , you know one

16:25

of the things that sometimes falls

16:28

out from the behaviors approach . People think about stimulus

16:30

response and they think about behaviors being triggered

16:32

and stimulated . No behaviors

16:35

happen because the inhibition is released . So

16:37

those things are all there . Those emotions

16:39

are there . It's just a question of how intense they are

16:42

. In fact , I've got the thing at the moment which

16:44

a friend of mine is building of a dog

16:46

brain , which is all these different

16:48

colors which represent different emotions

16:50

, and you change the brightness according to the state

16:52

of the dog's head , and I think it's a great way of actually

16:54

visualizing what we mean when we're talking

16:56

about emotional states in animals .

16:59

I want to kind of jump off that question too , because I'm

17:01

sure you're approached with many different new technologies

17:04

and strategies for assessing all

17:06

kinds of things in science . But especially when it comes to

17:08

emotions , Do you see anything

17:10

on the forefront where it's going to help

17:12

us as practitioners or scientists to

17:15

assess truly what's going on ? So kind

17:17

of thinking of Dr Greg Byrne's work with

17:19

the MRI scans , those kinds of tools

17:22

. Do you see anything else on the horizon that's going to say

17:24

, okay , this dog is probably experiencing

17:26

this emotion .

17:27

So I'm involved in some work at

17:29

the moment with colleagues at the University

17:32

of London and the University of Cambridge where we're

17:34

looking at mobile EEGs

17:36

so looking at brainwaves , and we can

17:38

do it in a remote way and we can

17:40

look at synchronization of EEGs between

17:42

dogs and their owners . Now

17:44

this is an ambitious project . If it works

17:47

, then I think that will be quite interesting

17:49

to look to see , because there is this

17:51

idea of emotional contagion and how

17:54

dogs may potentially manipulate situations

17:56

in order to unify the emotional

17:59

states . I'm not saying they're thinking about any of

18:01

these things , but it's just what they do . You

18:03

know you try to operate in a happy emotional

18:05

situation . Life's better for you in

18:07

that and that seems to be sort of a dog's mission

18:09

in life . The technology is

18:11

there and we could do it . What

18:14

we don't have is the investment . That's

18:16

the problem is . Just before

18:18

COVID we actually got some funding from the

18:20

European Union for somebody to look at developing

18:22

a whole battery of physiological measures

18:25

that we're going to try and triangulate different emotional

18:27

states in dogs . Covid hit we couldn't

18:29

access owners and their dogs and unfortunately

18:32

, you know it was really soul destroying for

18:34

that poor researcher and you

18:36

know she's pretty much left the field now . It's

18:39

a real shame I mean , we made some good progress

18:41

there and when we

18:43

think about emotion , that there's so many different

18:45

elements of it . So you're probably

18:47

aware , you know we did stuff on . First of all , one

18:50

of the experiments that we did was to demonstrate

18:52

that dogs must have some sort of concept

18:54

of emotion in their head , and it's

18:57

become quite an important piece of work just

19:00

trying to show that they have some categorization

19:03

, have some concept of emotion . To what degree

19:05

they think about it is a different issue . We

19:07

, then , have done a fair bit of work

19:09

, starting to look at the communication of emotions

19:12

, which is another element of it . I

19:14

have a phd student at the moment who's looking at

19:16

the idea of the importance of regulation

19:18

of emotion , because that's another important property

19:21

that you can . You use

19:23

various mechanisms . In fact , I was talking to

19:25

one of my other students earlier this afternoon

19:27

and talking to her about what we call

19:29

auto communication , so the idea that

19:31

you give signals out that are for your

19:33

benefit and help you in regulation

19:36

, and they help to regulate your emotions . So

19:38

she's actually studying cats and we're talking

19:40

about rubbing and how that information

19:43

may actually help reassure . I

19:45

don't know about you . But you know , if I go to a hotel

19:47

and it's all pristine , first

19:49

thing I do is empty my suitcase or backpack

19:52

and just spread stuff around so there's more familiar stuff

19:54

for me to look at and I feel more reassured

19:56

and less at sea , and

19:58

you know that sort of auto communication

20:01

. But it serves an important role as far

20:03

as regulating our emotions go , because you're in this strange

20:05

room that seems just too

20:07

sterile and you want to

20:09

make it more familiar and make yourself more

20:11

relaxed as a result . And it's not

20:14

an area that we've really looked at and

20:16

I think partly because we've

20:18

not given emotions the attention

20:20

that they deserve . But now that we are starting

20:22

to consider emotions much more , then

20:24

we can start to think of communication , not just

20:27

in relation between two individuals , but

20:29

also the things we do

20:31

that help us regulate our emotions

20:34

, which can include elements of auto-communication

20:37

.

20:37

Yeah , because it's something as trainers . We talk

20:39

about it all the time , but do we really know ? So we talk

20:41

about things like displacement behaviors or even

20:43

, well , calming signals is a

20:45

debatable term , but in terms of you

20:47

know the dogs calming themselves or trying to

20:49

calm somebody else , which is again debatable

20:52

. But we talk about it all the time , but we don't

20:54

really know for sure if that's

20:56

truly what the dog's intent is . Are they trying

20:58

to self-regulate ? Are they doing it for themselves

21:00

? Are they doing it to communicate to something in the environment

21:02

? Right ?

21:03

yeah , so one

21:05

of the things again you know , the more I've

21:07

studied dogs and dog cognition and

21:09

I've increasingly saying this that

21:11

the more I

21:13

think that dogs are not very smart

21:16

, and what I mean by that and I say that deliberately

21:18

, to be provocative and just make sure- anyone is drifting

21:20

off at this stage . Thought what

21:22

I hope they're not just switching off . But dogs

21:25

do not , I don't think , do that

21:27

much by way of thinking . What

21:29

they do is . They're incredibly perceptive

21:31

. Now they

21:33

do very human-like behaviors , but

21:36

not with the rational thought I

21:38

think that humans use . They're

21:40

very in tune to emotion . I

21:42

don't think that requires them to actually analyze

21:44

it , and I think one of the traps that

21:46

we easily fall into is because

21:49

we're capable of rational thought . We

21:52

think that most of our behavior is controlled

21:54

by rational thought . That's

21:56

not the case . I mean , it's quite

21:58

clearly not . But most decisions we

22:01

make are actually made for us and our brain

22:03

decides to make us aware of a few of them

22:05

. If you're driving along and somebody steps

22:07

out , you say , well , I put my foot on the brake because I saw somebody

22:09

step out . No , before

22:12

you were aware , you process

22:14

that somebody has stepped out . Your foot had already moved

22:16

to the brake , your brain had made

22:18

those decisions and then bothered to tell you , create

22:20

a little bit of consciousness that you're aware of that

22:23

, and

22:26

actually responding in that sort of

22:28

time allows you to respond very , very quickly in emergency

22:30

situations . And whilst

22:33

we can act rationally , I think a lot

22:35

of the time we don't . We are driven

22:37

by our emotions and we go for those sort of very

22:39

overt associations , and

22:42

that's a very efficient way of operating

22:44

most of the time . Now , if it's a dangerous situation

22:46

, then we do need to slow down

22:48

. We do need to think about things

22:51

because the cost of getting it wrong . I'm

22:53

naturally an optimist , for whatever

22:55

reason . That's just sort of the way that I've developed

22:58

and I've been very successful

23:00

. I've been very fortunate in the people

23:03

that I've known and the people that have helped me in

23:05

my career . Being an optimist

23:07

means that you're very good at

23:09

potentially exploiting resources if they're

23:11

there , but what it means is

23:13

I'm really bad at judging

23:16

risk . I've nearly been killed

23:18

multiple times . I've been run over . I've nearly drowned twice in the space of about 10 minutes

23:20

because I did exactly the same thing again after the first time . I've fallen run over . I've nearly

23:22

drowned twice in the space of about 10 minutes because

23:24

I did exactly the same thing again after

23:26

the first time . I've fallen from heights

23:29

because I misjudged things

23:31

. I've had a gun pulled on me . I

23:33

do not recommend the strategy of laughing at the person

23:35

who pulled the gun , but it worked because I couldn't

23:37

believe that it was happening . I'm really

23:40

poor at that because I

23:42

tend to be fairly spontaneous and , yeah

23:44

, I open my mouth and I say things that perhaps

23:47

I don't really mean but I'm thinking

23:49

of at the time , you know , and that can get me into

23:51

hot water . But so you

23:53

know different traits and different

23:55

personalities , and whether or not you think

23:57

things through vary with the environment

24:00

and the circumstances . I can stop

24:02

and think well , I think I can , otherwise

24:04

I wouldn't be able to write the papers that I write . But most

24:06

of the time I'm just operating in this free

24:08

world where I'm just drifting from

24:10

one thing to another and just enjoying

24:12

it . And dogs

24:15

, I think , are very perceptive

24:17

. They're very good at picking

24:19

up on cues . They

24:21

like happy people . Happy people are

24:23

good for you . If you're a dog , the

24:25

chances are there's something

24:27

in it for you if somebody is smiling . However

24:30

, angry people are generally not good

24:33

news . Now , the dog doesn't have

24:35

to know that it's angry , he just has to say this is

24:37

not the situation that you

24:39

know , that I want and I will try and do something about

24:41

it . So , depending on who

24:44

the individual is , dogs

24:46

will respond differently with

24:48

an angry person or where

24:50

there's negative emotion . In

24:53

some situations , if , for example

24:55

, you've got an owner , you know who's trying

24:57

to get their dog to recall and they're screaming at

24:59

their dog to come here and eventually the dog

25:01

comes , screaming

25:05

at their dog to come here , and eventually the dog comes . The dog keeps himself about two meters away and

25:07

he does that for a number of reasons . Two meters is about the

25:09

personal distance of a dog and

25:12

it means that you're out of my

25:14

personal space , but it's also a safe distance

25:17

. And as the owner

25:19

goes to grab the dog , to chuck him on the

25:21

lead , because they're absolutely fuming that the dog has been

25:23

chasing rabbits , what does the dog

25:25

do ? He runs off . And

25:27

he runs off as an act of play

25:29

. What he's trying to signal is and

25:32

they say doesn't it take any great thought ? But you're

25:34

my human that I hang around with . You've

25:37

said come , but everything else in you is saying

25:39

you'd better stay away from me . So

25:41

maybe if I use play

25:44

, then we can all be happy and I

25:46

can bring the system back into balance . However

25:49

, if you've got a situation whereby

25:51

you've got a dog in a home and

25:53

two people are arguing , whether that's

25:56

teenagers or the two owners

25:58

these people the dog has a bond with

26:00

how am I going to resolve this ? Well , the

26:02

dog might just take himself off . But dogs don't understand

26:04

what's going on in an argument . They pick

26:06

up on the tension and some

26:08

dogs will say , well , I'm going to try and

26:11

resolve this , so I'll go and bite

26:13

one of them and then we'll

26:15

make up . And from a dog's point of view , sometimes

26:18

you bite and then you make up , because

26:20

it just resolves the tension and it moves

26:22

things on . And that's why , you know , sometimes

26:24

people get bitten by their own dog , often

26:28

having an argument with somebody else in the house . All

26:30

the dog is trying to do is just trying to create

26:32

some stability in that situation . So

26:35

it doesn't involve great thought

26:38

. It's just a question of responding to relatively

26:40

simple situations or being in tune

26:42

with certain situations . There's

26:49

a lovely bit of work that was done quite a few years ago now you may well

26:51

have seen it of some dots on a screen and one dot is one color

26:53

and then there's four or five dots that are a different

26:56

color and basically

26:58

when you watch it it looks like these dots

27:01

are basically hunting the

27:03

bigger dot , let's say the red dot , and

27:05

it very much predicts , yeah , this

27:08

sort of hunting movements when

27:10

you've got wolves with a deer or something

27:13

like that . But all it requires

27:15

is that the yellow dots are attracted to the red dot

27:17

and they try to maximize

27:19

the distance from themselves . So

27:22

what you get is you initially get pursuit and

27:24

then , as they get closer , so they start to fan

27:27

out and eventually they circle . Well , if you add

27:29

another rule , which is , if

27:31

you're at the head end , you bite the throat , you're

27:33

hunting . It doesn't involve any communication

27:36

between the individuals . It looks like such

27:38

an intelligent thing and we would say

27:40

, oh well , look , they're coordinating themselves and

27:42

the way they do it . But

27:49

you just need very simple rules and you don't need , let's say , the complexity that

27:51

we sometimes impose and sometimes people say , oh , you know , isn't it ? Don't you find it sort

27:53

of depressing if it's like unmasking the magician

27:55

? And I think no , actually , when I see

27:57

how a trick is done , I actually think that

27:59

is so , how somebody thought

28:02

that , that , how to do

28:04

that . I find it just as amazing

28:06

, and I find it just as amazing that you can do things

28:08

with really simple rules without having

28:10

to be complicated about things .

28:12

Yes , and it's got me thinking

28:15

. Do you think you know in

28:17

terms of dogs' thought processes and

28:19

how much they can actually think through

28:22

problem solving something ? Do you think dogs are capable

28:24

of deception or lying ?

28:28

Can you define for me deception and lying there

28:30

we ?

28:30

go let's . Maybe we should use an example . We've

28:33

seen videos .

28:34

If you're on social media .

28:35

You might see it . You know , the owner comes home and

28:37

they see the mess on the floor and there's two dogs

28:39

and the owner's

28:41

like you know who did this ? And then one

28:43

dog will like poke the other dog

28:45

or put their paw over the other dog as to say

28:47

it was them . Right now

28:50

, obviously there's a lot of other ways to look at that

28:52

. Yeah , something like that where dog is maybe

28:55

purposely trying to shift

28:57

their owner's behavior through

28:59

their actions , but it's actually , in a way , deception

29:02

.

29:03

I don't have a problem with the idea that they manipulate

29:05

their owner's behavior for their benefit . So

29:09

you know , it's a little bit like the issue of jealousy

29:11

. Yes , yeah , is the dog

29:13

jealous or is it sensitive to

29:15

reward inequity ? So you

29:18

know , the classic experiment that was done is

29:20

you train a dog to give you its paw with

29:22

a piece of kibble yeah , and the dog reliably

29:24

gives its paw when you ask it . You

29:26

train another dog to give its paw in

29:29

response to a liver treat , and

29:31

the dog reliably gives its paw

29:33

in response to the liver treat . Both

29:35

dogs perform really well until you bring them

29:38

together and

29:40

you get the dog that you've trained with the kibble to

29:42

give you the paw on command . He gives the paw , you the kibble to give

29:44

you the paw on command , he gives the paw . You get the other dog to give you the paw

29:46

and he gets a liver treat . And then you go

29:48

back to the first dog and he says what

29:52

, hang on , he's getting the liver treat . Now

29:55

. You can anthropomorphize that all

29:57

you like , but actually

29:59

they are sensitive to that

30:01

. Now . That has real practical value . And actually

30:04

a number of years ago I had a master student

30:06

look at this in puppy classes . Because what happens if

30:08

one person is training with cheese

30:10

and one person's training with kibble ? The

30:12

person who's training with kibble , are they having a harder time

30:14

training their dogs ? We started

30:17

to look at it and we didn't publish it . It's a shame because

30:19

it's a beautiful piece of work . It's

30:24

just it needed a fair bit of work to get it ready for publication . But we did find evidence that

30:26

the dogs in the classes that were

30:28

receiving the lower value rewards might be

30:30

affected by the observation or

30:33

something that was going on with

30:35

other dogs receiving higher rewards . Now

30:38

there has been work which suggests

30:40

that it's not about reward

30:42

inequity , it's about the inaccessibility

30:44

of reward that affects it . But I mean , that's

30:46

a more sort

30:49

of nuanced scientific issue

30:51

. The important thing , I think , from a practical

30:53

point of view , is , yeah , the dogs behave differently

30:55

. Exactly why they do it ? And

30:57

that's a much harder question to answer and

30:59

we mustn't jump to a conclusion

31:01

, because the problem is , if we jump to the conclusion

31:03

, then we set our expectations for the dogs

31:05

. We have to recognize yeah

31:07

, the dogs do this , dogs behave differently here

31:10

. Let's just accept that without

31:12

reading too much into

31:14

it . Or , if we do

31:16

, start to generalize it because we believe it's for

31:18

a particular idea . We have to approach

31:20

that with an open mind and say , if

31:22

, if I tried in this situation , if he

31:24

doesn't respond , then actually it might

31:26

well be that my belief

31:29

in why he's doing it is wrong , not that the

31:31

dog is being nasty or anything like

31:33

that .

31:34

Yes , it's something that comes up quite often

31:36

in my intra-household dog-dog aggression cases

31:38

when the client might

31:40

assign jealousy or some other reason and competition

31:43

over a particular resource . But it is something

31:45

you can notice when one dog is

31:47

not receiving the same resource as the

31:49

other or it's a different level of value

31:51

that you start to have problems and sometimes

31:54

we witness frustration type behaviors

31:56

from the dog not getting those particular reinforcers

31:58

. So it's an interesting conversation

32:01

we're getting into here because it matters in

32:03

our aggression case , especially if it's an intra household case

32:05

. I think , going along exactly what you're

32:07

saying , just to recognize the context or recognize

32:09

that this is happening , what can we do to adjust

32:11

it ? Be careful about what we assign

32:13

for the actual reasoning . Would that seem

32:16

like the right thing I'm saying there ?

32:18

Yeah , we try to recognize and acknowledge

32:20

the emotions of the animals . We're not saying

32:22

that we know what's going on in their head , we're not

32:25

saying we know how they feel either , but

32:27

it allows us to generate hypothesis

32:30

that we can test in the real world

32:32

and , as I said , develop treatments that are potentially

32:34

more effective . And

32:36

it allows us potentially then to

32:38

predict risk better if we recognize

32:41

that this is not something that is just controlled by a particular stimulus

32:43

, but if we recognize that this is not something that is just controlled by a particular stimulus , but

32:46

if we recognize that , yeah , the animal

32:48

perhaps struggles with this particular emotion

32:50

. That's why we developed a number of the temperament

32:53

scales that we've developed in order

32:55

to look at behavioral predisposition , because

32:57

if the animal has got that predisposition as

32:59

you know , a dog that is scared of

33:01

something specific you can train it to

33:03

desensitize it to that particular stimulus

33:05

, counter condition it as well , and

33:07

that's fine . But if the dog is

33:10

also temperamentally fearful , then

33:12

it's almost certainly going to relapse . So

33:14

your whole strategy of how

33:17

you manage the dog in the future needs

33:19

to bear that in mind , and it might be then that

33:21

you need to think much more seriously about

33:23

the use of medication to prevent the risk

33:25

of relapse and help the dog generally cope

33:27

and , yeah , improve the resilience

33:29

of the dog .

33:30

Very well said and I'm going to take a quick

33:32

moment to hear a word from our sponsors

33:35

and when we come back I want to talk more about

33:37

kind of the issues we're seeing with

33:39

aggression cases in general and are

33:41

we seeing an increase , are we seeing about

33:43

the same and what factors are influencing those

33:45

things ? So we'll be right back . Thanks

33:52

for tuning in and I hope you are enjoying this

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35:51

right , we're back here with Dr Daniel Mills . We've been chatting

35:54

about a lot of really interesting topics

35:56

, but I want to dive now into , you

35:58

know , post-pandemic a lot of trainers

36:00

have been talking about . Are we seeing an increase

36:02

in aggression cases ? The general synopsis

36:05

is yes , we're seeing a significant increase , or

36:08

is it just because of , maybe , where we're getting the dogs

36:10

from more media coverage

36:12

, more talking about it , more blaming it on

36:14

the pandemic . What are your thoughts on that ? Do you

36:16

think , at least in the UK ? What are you

36:18

seeing there ? Are you seeing an increase in the number of cases

36:20

of aggression or is it about the same ?

36:22

in your experience , Well , most of

36:24

the cases we see in the clinic are aggression cases

36:26

, so it's difficult to increase but

36:29

the impression that we've gotten , as

36:31

it happens , this summer I have a student

36:33

who's going to look at this specifically . She's

36:35

going to look at the cases that we've been seeing

36:38

the phrase pandemic pups and

36:41

we certainly seem to be seeing

36:43

a pattern there

36:45

. Now it

36:47

seems that I don't know

36:49

whether it's more frequent , but certainly

36:51

we got the impression that it's more

36:53

severe now . Is

36:56

it because these dogs are not well

36:58

socialized and

37:00

there's an issue there ? Is

37:03

it the stress that owners were under

37:05

when they were looking after ? And this is ? You know , it's

37:07

so easy to latch onto one explanation

37:09

, but we're going to be looking at the cases

37:12

that we saw during the pandemic . We're

37:14

going to be looking at the cases that we see now , the

37:17

cases before the pandemic , trying to control

37:19

for age of the puppies . Are we seeing

37:21

more younger dogs ? My

37:23

feeling is I think we are . Historically

37:27

we tend to see animals after

37:29

several years that the problem's been

37:31

going on . We're seeing many more . Is it because

37:33

owners are better informed ? I don't know , but

37:35

I don't think we know the full

37:38

extent to which the pandemic has

37:40

affected all of us , dogs as well as humans

37:42

. I think we are probably seeing more

37:44

, and I think we are probably seeing more and I think we're seeing a slightly

37:46

different profile in the nature of it

37:48

and you know

37:50

, their ability to regulate

37:53

their emotions and the nature

37:55

of the aggressive behavior that we're seeing in particular

37:58

types of dogs .

37:59

we see a lot of cockapoos why

38:02

do you think we're seeing it's more intense

38:05

at a younger age , if I'm paraphrasing

38:07

that correctly , or do you think it's

38:09

a function of where we're getting the dogs , the breeding

38:12

practices ? I know last

38:14

time I was out in the uk they were seeing more dogs

38:16

brought in from different countries and some

38:19

of the romanian street dogs and things like that

38:21

. Do you think that's a factor as well ?

38:22

yeah , we have a . We do have a big issue with potentially Romanian street dogs and things like

38:24

that . Do you think that's a factor as well ? Yeah , we do have a big issue with , potentially

38:27

with street dogs and I do understand

38:29

the reason why people like to rescue

38:31

of these dogs . But one

38:33

of the reasons we get a dog is because the

38:35

emotion of it . The problem is when we think

38:37

with our heart rather than our head , we don't

38:40

necessarily make good decisions

38:42

. As I I said , I make some pretty poor decisions

38:44

in those situations . So

38:46

issues like the street dogs and

38:49

certainly pre-pandemic , that was a really

38:51

big issue . People were rescuing

38:54

in inverted commas dogs from the streets of

38:56

romania . Now , I fully understand that

38:58

. You know a dog that walks the streets in romania

39:00

could easily get run over

39:02

. But if you think you're rescuing

39:04

it when you take it off the street and keep

39:06

it within four walls for eight , 10

39:08

hours a day , I don't think that's

39:11

actually rescuing it . That's taking

39:13

it from Romania and changing

39:16

the risks the dog faces and

39:18

imposing other stressors in

39:20

that situation . They're not adapted

39:23

. They're used to having that much more freedom

39:25

. In fact , when I first graduated

39:27

as a vet , I worked in a place called Plymouth , in

39:29

the Southwest of this country and a couple

39:31

of doors down there were a couple who came

39:33

from Liverpool and it was very

39:35

much a cultural thing for

39:37

people in Liverpool around about that time that

39:39

when you went to work you , your dog

39:42

out on the street it'd be cruel to

39:44

leave your dog shut up during the day . And

39:47

this couple were from liverpool and they used to do that

39:49

with the dog and I think your dog's gonna get run over and I said

39:51

, what else would we do ? This is pre-dog

39:54

sitters being widely available or anything

39:56

like that . And you think , well

39:59

, actually you know they got a point there . You

40:01

know , if the dog is streetwise , does

40:03

it have a better life ? We've

40:05

got , you know , dog wardens and whatever . But it's

40:08

an interesting sort of scenario giving

40:11

them that much more freedom , and certainly being

40:13

in the home and not having control can

40:16

be really problematic for

40:18

a lot of dogs that they will struggle in those situations

40:20

. So we did look at what happened

40:23

when the pandemic happened and

40:25

we looked at people both in the uk and

40:27

the us , worked with a number of colleagues in the

40:30

us to help us gather the

40:32

data and it just did

40:34

seem that as lockdown happened

40:36

, the dogs started to get frustrated

40:38

and they got increasingly frustrated as

40:41

time went on . Now I've

40:43

had another student again we've not

40:45

it , but she looked at what happened

40:47

when people started to go back to work . Interestingly

40:51

, what she seemed to find

40:53

and we need to look more closely at the data

40:55

is we got problems again . So

40:58

going back to work didn't solve the problem and

41:00

it seems that actually the really

41:03

big issue for dogs was the

41:05

change . So when

41:07

people stayed at home more , it wasn't that

41:09

they were at home more , it was the fact that there was a change

41:11

in the routines , a big change in

41:13

the routines . This is my take on

41:15

it at the moment and I know other people have

41:18

got studies going and it may not be right

41:20

, but as far as I can

41:22

tell , it looks like when lockdown

41:24

happened , that was a big change . That

41:26

caused a lot more frustration

41:29

in the dogs . People were at

41:31

home for a while , assuming they

41:33

got over that first hurdle . Then there was

41:35

an increased risk with time spent at

41:37

home , the quality of the relationship

41:39

. They started to get tension with increased

41:41

time in that situation . Then

41:44

, when they went back to work , when you think , oh well , you

41:46

know those frustrations will be relieved . No , it's another big

41:48

change in the routine , another big

41:50

risk period at that moment

41:52

as well . So there

41:55

was a lot of unscrupulous breeding that went on during

41:57

the pandemic as well , and maybe that's one of the

41:59

reasons why we're also seeing increased

42:02

problems as well . So I think we

42:04

should resist the urge to just hang it

42:06

on one particular explanation

42:08

. There's a whole myriad of factors that

42:10

went on . People were stressed

42:12

, people were out of work , not necessarily

42:15

being able to get benefits or anything like that . It

42:17

was an incredibly stressful time . I

42:19

don't think we've seen the worst of it yet

42:21

, especially when it comes to children .

42:24

Yeah , definitely a couple of ways . I want to go

42:26

with the next part of this conversation . I'm

42:28

just trying to think of the one that's

42:30

the best , because there's two . I'm being

42:33

kind of selfish and I want , for my own information , to

42:35

hear your answer . But

42:37

you know , when you think about the behavior

42:40

problems that we see with dogs in modern

42:42

society and you think about with

42:44

some locations of street dogs obviously

42:47

being the exception , but the vast majority of

42:49

dogs on the planet not being necessarily

42:52

owned or being contained in a particular environment

42:54

, they have much more agency in

42:56

their environment , in their world . We don't

42:58

see the levels of behavior problems

43:00

in those dogs . Now , again , it it could be location-specific

43:03

, depending on their environment , depends on how the culture

43:05

treats dogs , but most of the

43:07

time you're gonna see very behaviorally healthy

43:09

dogs , maybe not physically healthy because of being

43:12

hit by a car , but even then , the

43:14

other part of the argument is our breeding practices

43:17

. If we're breeding for shape and

43:19

look versus function and health

43:21

, pain underlying medical issues

43:23

could also be influencing this problem

43:25

we're seeing with pain-related aggression

43:28

and things like that . So sort of a broad

43:30

question just to get your thoughts

43:33

on all of this . You know , in terms of what

43:35

are we doing in modern society that

43:37

can be creating many of these aggression issues that

43:39

we may not necessarily see , or behavior

43:41

problems in general ? Not just aggression , but behavior

43:43

problems , problems in general that we may not see

43:45

in dogs that are in a more natural they're quote

43:48

natural environment for those dogs so

43:50

I think the first thing to appreciate is that the dogs

43:52

in the natural environment , the free roaming dogs

43:54

there is massive selective pressure

43:57

going on .

43:57

So , yeah , you don't see the problems because they're dead .

44:00

No , nature takes care of that

44:02

very efficiently .

44:04

You know , the vast majority of free roaming

44:06

dogs don't make it to three years old . Yeah , so

44:09

that's the brutal reality

44:11

there . One of the things which

44:13

and again I'll just throw this out here I'm

44:16

probably going to take on a new phd

44:18

student . We're just checking that everything's going

44:20

to work out and we're going to look at

44:22

the issue of the concept

44:24

of love with owners and

44:27

how that translates to caring , because

44:30

what we say

44:32

and what we rationalize going back to being rational

44:34

, you know what we say and

44:37

what we rationalize and what we actually do I

44:39

often don't meet up . In fact , one

44:41

of the papers we published earlier this year , I

44:43

I would love the title . A student came up with the title

44:45

have you Seen this Drivel ? And

44:48

basically what we did is we

44:50

went into social media groups

44:52

and we went into the

44:54

breed-related groups for different

44:56

types of breeds and you

44:58

know the title is just to be provocative and just to get

45:00

people to read it . We say the

45:02

most important thing in any scientific paper is the title

45:05

, because that's all that most people will read . So

45:07

if you try and catch them . But it's absolutely

45:09

fascinating because what we found

45:12

was that when you went into the groups like the Labradors

45:14

and the German Shepherds , they have health

45:16

problems . We were interested in how they discussed health

45:18

problems and what they would do is they would

45:20

talk about the health problems and the nature

45:23

of them problems , and what they would do is they would talk about the health

45:25

problems and you know the nature of them , and it was very much about , well , these are

45:27

the issues and this is what can be done . These are the options

45:29

and there was a discussion about options very

45:31

much more . When you went into

45:34

the smaller dogs and

45:36

we focused particularly on brachycephalic supply I'm not

45:38

saying this is unique to brachycephalics you

45:41

saw some of the same , but you saw much

45:43

, much more social support . You

45:45

know , you poor thing , as soon as somebody said

45:47

they've got this problem with animals , there's much more

45:49

emotion in the whole situation . Now

45:53

, one of the things we're doing at the moment

45:55

is we're trying to work out why

45:57

some of the campaigns welfare

45:59

organizations have launched to try

46:02

and regulate or reduce the

46:04

popularity of dogs with breathing

46:07

problems , brachycephalics that have

46:09

not been bred . Well , you know

46:11

, first of all , I love pugs

46:13

. I have a life-size

46:15

pug . Actually , I've not got it in this room because

46:18

I love pugs , they find them so cute , but

46:20

I won't get one , because I can just about

46:22

, with my rational brain , say no , it's

46:24

not a good thing to do , the risks

46:26

are too great . There are some very

46:28

responsible breeders who will breed

46:30

good dogs , but there are also

46:32

some people who will exploit . And

46:35

what we think is going on is

46:37

that when you do a campaign , you

46:39

tell people these dogs have

46:41

these problems and therefore we shouldn't be

46:43

breeding them . Okay , which

46:46

seems a very reasonable argument which most

46:48

people can say . Yeah , I can relate to that . You

46:50

know , if you said that if you

46:53

took a different species , you know , would

46:55

it be right to breed an animal where there was this

46:57

risk of these harms ? Most people would say

46:59

no , it's not the right thing to do . However

47:02

, if you are attracted

47:05

to these dogs and there's lots of reasons why

47:07

you'll be attracted to these dogs there's a

47:09

deep biological reason . Some of

47:11

the facial features we find intrinsically

47:13

attractive , they remind us of some of

47:15

the childlike features . But even

47:18

things like poor gait , being lame , actually may bring out the nurturing

47:20

in us . Poor gait , being lame , actually may bring out the nurturing

47:22

in us . So when somebody says

47:24

these dogs have these problems

47:26

, they don't hear these

47:29

animals have these problems . This

47:31

is a welfare problem . They hear these

47:33

dogs are suffering , they need

47:36

special care . I

47:49

like these dogs , therefore I ought to get one , because they need special care and I'm a loving person . And so the campaigns have

47:51

the complete opposite effect of what you would predict . And that's the difference between being rational and being

47:53

emotional . When you process information emotionally , it takes on a completely

47:56

different path through our brains . You

47:58

know , it still makes perfect

48:00

sense , but it's just not the outcome

48:03

. And the danger sometimes , as scientists

48:05

, is like economists . You know . Historically

48:08

, economists just assumed for too long

48:10

that people act rationally and

48:12

then realized that no , they don't

48:14

. Actually People go and buy stuff

48:16

that's completely useless for

48:19

them .

48:19

Now , speaking of campaigns and maybe

48:22

rational or irrational thoughts , can

48:24

we talk about the XL bully

48:26

ban ? I think that's recently

48:28

taken hold there and your

48:30

thoughts on that ?

48:32

I think it's desperately sad . That's my

48:34

starting point , in fact I don't

48:36

know how much time we've got . I nearly failed my veterinary

48:39

degree because of the Dangerous Dogs Act

48:41

. I was actually asked in my finals

48:43

about a particular breed of dog and I

48:45

thought , oh , dog behavior is one thing I can talk about

48:47

, but I'll spare you the story for

48:49

another time . But the

48:52

problem that I have with the legislation

48:54

? I have several problems with the legislation

48:57

and I'll just outline a number of

48:59

them to start with . Firstly

49:01

, I have a moral problem

49:03

with banning breeds . A

49:05

breed is a group of individuals that share

49:08

a particular characteristic

49:10

, usually a particular visible

49:12

characteristic , that tend to breed with each

49:14

other . In humans we call it races

49:16

. In dogs

49:19

we call it breeds . In sheep we call

49:21

if you ban breeds

49:23

, you are racist . The

49:26

two are the same . That to me is a

49:28

problem that you distinguish between individuals

49:30

on the basis of what they look like as opposed

49:32

to what they've done . I have

49:35

a number of other issues

49:37

with it , in so much as in the uk

49:39

, the legislation . Originally

49:41

it came with a mandatory death sentence with

49:44

no discrimination . Well , we don't

49:46

have death sentences in this country as

49:48

a rule . It also came that

49:50

you were guilty until you prove your innocence

49:53

. The burden of proof was on the owner to show

49:55

that their dog was not of the type , which

49:57

again is completely contrary to the

49:59

legislation . So

50:01

you know , there's a number of real

50:04

problems , ethical problems I have

50:06

with that legislation . Quite

50:09

apart from that , I think there are a number

50:11

of other issues with the legislation

50:13

, not least of which is , as

50:16

I said , the idea that first of all you've got to try and

50:18

prove your dog is not of the type . Well

50:20

, how are you supposed to do that Because of

50:22

the type when we don't have a breed standard ? I

50:25

used to do an exercise with the students where I'd

50:27

give them the American pit bull standard

50:29

that was often used as being of the type and

50:31

say you know , we could argue that

50:33

if it's got over 50% of the characteristics

50:35

listed here , then it is of the type . And

50:38

a Dalmatian fits that . If

50:40

your Dalmatian got seized and somebody said that's

50:42

of the type , you'd have a real

50:44

job trying to prove that it's not , in

50:47

fact even a chihuahua , potentially

50:49

you know , might meet the

50:51

type , I don't know , but you can do

50:53

it with real dogs , with a

50:55

whole variety of dogs , and show that it's

50:57

very difficult . So it's not a clear criterion

51:00

. But the other real issue

51:02

here is that labeling a

51:04

dog as dangerous , as we mentioned

51:06

earlier , as soon as you label a dog as

51:08

dangerous , you see it in a certain way

51:10

, but equally , from a public health

51:13

point of view , you create

51:15

the impression that some dogs are dangerous , which

51:17

means that some breeds of dogs aren't , which

51:20

completely undermines the idea

51:22

of sensible behavior and safe behavior

51:24

around dogs . I'm the

51:27

youngest of five kids . My mom had

51:29

five of us under the age of five . You

51:31

know she didn't hang about when she got married

51:33

. My two brothers were born first my

51:36

two sisters . There was a gap about

51:38

she lost one in between me and my sister

51:40

. I had the dogs to play with . If I got

51:42

bitten by the dogs it was my fault . You

51:44

don't do that . Leave sleeping dogs

51:46

lie . Every child getting

51:48

bitten is a tragedy , absolutely . But

51:51

to put the blame just on the dog is completely

51:54

insane and does not encourage good

51:56

behavior . So making it about

51:58

the breed of the dog I'm not saying you know , genetics

52:01

plays a role in behavior

52:03

. But when

52:05

we talk about breeds and breed

52:07

related behavior , we're talking about averages

52:10

, and that's the midpoint

52:12

, if you like . Yeah , the variation

52:14

around that is enormous . So

52:17

just because it is a pit bull does

52:19

not mean that it wants to kill

52:21

you . Some of them do . Some

52:23

chihuahuas want to kill you , some

52:25

Dalmatians want to kill you . One

52:27

of the most aggressive dogs that I had in the clinic

52:30

that I can remember it's the only time I've had

52:32

to drop physically on top of a dog was

52:34

a golden retriever with a dietary

52:36

allergy and it just had these explosive

52:39

rages and in those days I used to have the students in

52:41

the clinic with me and the dog had

52:43

got hold of something on its way to the clinic

52:45

and it just started to

52:47

explode and I literally dropped

52:50

on the dog to stop it from biting somebody

52:52

. So you shouldn't

52:54

make laws on the basis of averages and

52:56

ban everybody of the type you know . As I said , that

52:58

is racist . So that's

53:01

where I come from . I'm not denying

53:03

that there are genetic factors , but equally

53:06

the idea that a ban is going to solve

53:08

the problem is naive . And originally

53:11

, you know , with the Dangerous Dogs Act , it was said oh well

53:13

, these people are fighting dogs . Well , I don't know if

53:15

you've ever seen a dog fight , but in

53:17

the UK typically they might occur in

53:19

something like a pub cellar . If your dog

53:21

is remotely interested in people

53:23

, your dog is going to lose the fight because the other

53:25

dog will rip its throat out while it's busy looking

53:27

at people , because the other dog will rip its

53:30

throat out while it's busy looking at people . So

53:35

it's a completely illogical link that dog fighting is linked to aggression towards

53:37

people and you actually create a badge of having one

53:40

of these types of dogs . So you create

53:42

a market for a

53:44

particular type of dogs . Yes , they're banning

53:46

American bullies . Yes

53:53

, they're banning American bullies

53:55

. We will be back in five , 10 years time with the XXXL American Dr Bordeaux or something

53:58

like that . They're going to go for something bigger and beefier

54:00

and they'll

54:02

just move on to something else . It's not

54:05

going to solve the problem of irresponsible

54:07

ownership . It's not going to protect

54:09

people . Sadly , it's

54:11

not going to encourage safe behavior and

54:13

responsible ownership . So

54:15

, sadly , I think it is just a

54:18

political move which

54:20

is going to harm people and harm dogs

54:22

.

54:23

Yeah , we see kind of the mirroring

54:25

of the issues here in the US with the banning

54:27

of pit bulls in some small jurisdictions

54:29

, which we are seeing , of course , are not working

54:32

. You know , and I think you summed

54:34

it beautifully with just saying , you know the irresponsible

54:37

ownership and that's really the main problem

54:39

. And when we look at most aggression cases

54:41

, we sometimes see that in

54:43

some of our cases where we're seeing something in the environment

54:45

or something that people are doing , or somehow the people

54:47

are breeding for certain things , you know , and

54:52

I'm certainly not blaming the owners here- you know , I want to make sure that that clear .

54:54

Yeah , and irresponsible ownership begins with irresponsible breeding

54:56

. So it's not saying it's all about the environment

54:58

. No , people are breeding dogs with horrendous

55:01

characteristics and with certain

55:03

tendencies . But , as I said , with anything

55:05

you've got the average and you've got

55:07

the variation around it . I don't

55:09

know know if you know , a number of years ago we looked at

55:11

Labradors compared to Border

55:14

Collies and impulsivity and

55:16

the interesting thing is , yeah , there was , on average

55:18

, some differences between the breeds , but

55:21

the really big difference was when you looked

55:23

at the working lines versus the show

55:25

lines . In the show lines there

55:27

was very little difference between the two breeds

55:29

. In the working lines there were . So

55:32

, yes , you can breed for behavior

55:35

, absolutely , but to think that

55:37

behavior is determined

55:39

by genes is so naive

55:41

.

55:43

Yeah , I love how we're talking

55:45

about so many of these nuances and

55:47

I want to take a step back , if you don't mind to

55:49

. We were talking about the relationships , so the

55:51

study of love , for instance , and

55:54

how much our

55:56

relationships with the animal in our care

55:58

or the dog in our care is going

56:00

to impact their behavior . So , looking

56:02

at kind of the attachment theory or

56:04

the different types of attachment broad

56:07

question , I know , can you talk more about that

56:09

as maybe in relation to the aggression cases

56:11

where we see a particular attachment

56:13

style or something going on in the relationship

56:16

that typically impacts the

56:18

likelihood of aggression from your observations

56:21

?

56:22

So again , it's

56:24

not that complicated . If things

56:27

are predictable as a dog , you've got

56:29

an easy life . You

56:32

know . If things are good and predictable , you've got an easy life . You know . If things are

56:34

good and predictable , you've got an easy life . Now you want a degree of variety . I don't know

56:36

very few people want to just lie on the beach all

56:38

day , every day , for many years

56:40

. You know it gets boring . After a while you want to

56:42

read a book or something . So if

56:45

everything is good , the natural state of

56:47

the brain is to go and

56:49

learn or play . You know

56:51

and you learn through play and investigate . That's

56:54

the default situation . So

56:57

if you've got a secure

56:59

attachment with your owner , you

57:02

know you can depend on them , which means

57:04

you can switch off a lot of the time . Now

57:06

, if you've got an insecure attachment and there

57:08

are many forms of insecure attachment

57:11

, but if you've got an insecure attachment

57:13

, depending on the type of insecurity , you may make

57:15

the prediction that my owner is

57:18

of no value to me when it comes to

57:20

social support , in

57:22

which case you become quite distant and

57:24

you do your own thing and you don't

57:27

take much by way of point of reference from

57:29

the owners . The really

57:31

harmful type of insecure

57:33

relationship is when your owner

57:35

is unpredictable . Sometimes

57:37

they love you , sometimes they seem to hate you , and

57:40

I think it's interesting and you've

57:42

got to be very careful . But well , we've

57:44

got some data which we are writing up

57:47

and , who knows , by the time this comes out we might even

57:49

have it submitted . But yeah

57:51

, this style of attachment whereby

57:54

, or caregiving , the

57:56

owner is the caregiver rather than attachment

57:59

, for me attachment has

58:01

several different meanings , again , even within

58:03

the scientific literature . But for me

58:05

attachment is the bond between a care receiver

58:07

and a caregiver , and I make the distinction between attachment styles so and a caregiver

58:10

, and I make the distinction between attachment styles so

58:12

. A dog is attached to its owner , or an infant

58:14

is attached to its mother . The mother is not attached

58:16

to the infant , she has a caregiver bond

58:19

which has different characteristics

58:21

. But if you look at the caregiving style

58:23

that leads to insecure attachment

58:25

in the care receiver in this

58:27

case the dog , that inconsistency

58:31

where sometimes they're raging and sometimes

58:33

they're loving for want of a better term

58:35

then they're the dogs

58:37

that are really struggling because they

58:39

don't know what's going to happen . And we

58:42

know , for example , in children where

58:45

they've got parents in that sort of situation

58:47

, they're the ones that really struggle with

58:49

mental health issues and

58:51

that means that you're going to get a dog . If

58:53

they are highly stressed

58:56

in that situation , yeah , they're more likely to use

58:58

aggressive behaviors , absolutely . As

59:00

I said , the data we've got seems to indicate

59:02

that as well . That that's where the problem is

59:04

. Now we've

59:06

got to be careful again . Just

59:08

preface this , because correlation

59:11

is not causation . But

59:13

when you start to look at

59:15

the literature on risk factors

59:17

with aggressive behavior , people

59:20

have focused on the use of punishment

59:22

or aversives in dog

59:25

training . One of the problems

59:27

with a lot of that work is it's epidemiological

59:29

. You know , if your dog is perfectly

59:31

well behaved , you have no reason to use

59:33

punishment . So you know it's

59:36

not surprising that you see the relationship

59:38

that dogs without behavior problems are

59:40

less likely to have suffered from

59:42

aversion . But some

59:44

of the more nuanced studies what they're seeing

59:46

to show is that people

59:49

who use a mixture of methods

59:51

, of using a lot of positive reinforcement

59:53

and using aversive methods they're

59:55

the dogs with the real problems , and that is

59:58

very consistent with this idea

1:00:00

. Now , as I said , there's a lot of caveats

1:00:03

there and we would need more evidence

1:00:05

, but on the balance of probabilities

1:00:08

, I think that makes a lot

1:00:10

of sense , and I think this is

1:00:12

where we've got to be careful about that mixture

1:00:15

. What the dog wants from the owner

1:00:17

is that secure relationship

1:00:19

, and if you engage in physical

1:00:21

punishment of your dog , how

1:00:23

do you expect your dog to trust you ? Yeah , yeah

1:00:26

, yeah , and that's

1:00:29

real problem , and what

1:00:31

we need to be doing is teaching the dogs to do

1:00:33

what we want to do and guiding

1:00:36

them always towards that , and there

1:00:38

just isn't the need to brutalize

1:00:40

the dogs .

1:00:41

Very well said , and you know I can agree more

1:00:44

because I always talk about safety

1:00:46

and the feeling of safety . You know the lack

1:00:48

of safety or feeling safe breeds aggression

1:00:50

in so many cases , and so if we're doing things

1:00:53

to the dog where they're not

1:00:55

going to feel safe from us , then it only

1:00:57

makes sense that you know it's a higher likelihood

1:00:59

of them to resort to aggression because they're

1:01:01

not feeling safe .

1:01:02

They've got to look after themselves and if

1:01:05

they feel threatened , they've only got one way of

1:01:07

looking after themselves . You know

1:01:09

, they've got four walls , they cannot run away .

1:01:11

Yes . So to

1:01:13

wrap up here , I would love to get . Because

1:01:16

you're somebody with so much experience

1:01:19

and you've been in this industry for so long

1:01:21

, studying dogs and so many facets , I feel

1:01:23

old . So , I always ask

1:01:25

you know , when I have somebody of your caliber that's had

1:01:27

so many experiences just studying things

1:01:30

at such a high degree , but in so many different , not

1:01:32

just one particular topic . I mean I

1:01:34

find it fascinating and the question I

1:01:36

ask is if you have one takeaway from all

1:01:38

of your life's work and experiences

1:01:40

to help the dog guardians

1:01:43

that might be experiencing , let's say

1:01:45

, behavior problems or aggression issues

1:01:47

, or they're trying to fix things with

1:01:49

their dog . What would your takeaway be

1:01:52

?

1:01:52

I'm not sure if this quite answers the question

1:01:55

, but I think one of the things that we

1:01:57

don't say enough and I think

1:01:59

isn't recognised enough is your

1:02:02

dog needs a safe space in the home , and

1:02:05

safe space is not a bolt hole

1:02:07

. A bolt hole is somewhere you go hoping

1:02:09

you will be safe , and we've developed

1:02:11

protocols for what we call safe havens . A

1:02:14

safe haven is somewhere you go knowing that

1:02:16

you're going to be safe , so

1:02:19

you have confidence , and it's a spot that you set aside

1:02:22

and there's a number of

1:02:24

features of it . I don't know whether I've got time to go

1:02:26

through , but basically you

1:02:28

never impose on the dog in that space

1:02:31

. So the dog knows that if he goes there

1:02:33

he's in control and he

1:02:35

also knows that because he's in control , no harm

1:02:37

will happen to him . So even if some scary stuff

1:02:40

is happening around him , he is safe . And

1:02:42

whilst we call it a safe haven

1:02:45

, it is actually a very powerful

1:02:47

tool for giving the dog some autonomy

1:02:50

in the home and we see a lot

1:02:52

of problems start to evaporate in that

1:02:54

situation . So the dog that is scared

1:02:56

of fireworks . He goes to a safe haven . He's

1:02:58

not that happy , but he'll chew his

1:03:00

toy and when the fireworks go , he'll stop

1:03:02

and he'll startle . That's normal . It's a sudden

1:03:04

noise , but he'll then go back to chewing his toy

1:03:06

and that's so much easier to

1:03:09

do set up a safe haven with

1:03:11

the right rules than it is to desensitize

1:03:13

a dog . Likewise , if you've

1:03:15

got visitors , the dog takes himself off

1:03:17

. The key things about a safe haven

1:03:20

is it's clearly demarcated

1:03:22

. The rule is when

1:03:24

the dog is there , you do not impose on

1:03:26

the dog . So you do not go and put the lead on him

1:03:28

. You do not go and give him a treat . Now

1:03:30

, if he's off his safe haven and he's in another

1:03:32

room , you can put a treat in his safe haven for him to find

1:03:34

. That's absolutely fine . But

1:03:38

you do not impose yourself on your dog . If you want to go for a walk and your dog

1:03:40

is in the safe haven , you can

1:03:43

hold the lead and see if he chooses

1:03:45

to come off . We

1:03:51

don't say walkies . You give him the choice . He can see the lead . He

1:03:53

knows what that means . But if you say walkies , you're imposing your . Well , you're

1:03:56

not actually . You know most of the time it's

1:03:58

not a choice . When we give instructions

1:04:00

to dogs it is obedience , and

1:04:03

the other key rule is that anybody

1:04:05

who doesn't understand those rules and can follow those

1:04:07

rules cannot be left unsupervised with the dog . Then

1:04:16

your dog has a way also of communicating that actually you know , we do this a lot with our clients

1:04:18

and they start to say , yeah , I've noticed that he starts to use it in these situations . I

1:04:20

didn't realize that he was uncomfortable . Then

1:04:23

you start to open up a dialogue

1:04:25

with your dog . So that's one

1:04:27

thing . The other thing I would say is there

1:04:30

is so much fun and joy to

1:04:32

be had by watching your dog and

1:04:34

just watch , let your dog make

1:04:37

choices , and just

1:04:39

observe , formulate your own ideas

1:04:41

and then test them and see if they're true . But

1:04:43

don't set them up to try and confirm them , to

1:04:45

say , well , okay , let's see how things go . We

1:04:48

spend far too much time doing and not enough

1:04:51

time , I think , looking .

1:04:53

Very , very well said and an excellent way to

1:04:55

wrap up the show . Daniel , thank you

1:04:57

so much . Where can people find you and where can

1:04:59

people learn more about the research you're doing

1:05:01

?

1:05:02

I have a presence on Google Scholar

1:05:04

so if anyone goes into Google Scholar , if

1:05:06

you put dogs and mills , you'll

1:05:09

probably find one of my papers and then that will take

1:05:11

you to my whole profile so

1:05:13

you can find it there . You can find my webpage

1:05:15

at the University of Lincoln under

1:05:17

the staff pages . Somebody set

1:05:20

up a Wikipedia page about me . I saw that

1:05:22

Came as news . I'm not

1:05:24

sure how up to date it is . Somebody has to

1:05:26

teach me how to do it . During COVID

1:05:28

, I started to do a series of interviews

1:05:30

with people who had inspired me , called

1:05:33

what makes you click if you go into youtube

1:05:35

and you put my name and what makes you click what

1:05:38

I really loved ? I was so lucky to

1:05:40

meet some really great people early

1:05:42

in my career and I

1:05:44

just use it as an opportunity to catch up with

1:05:46

some of them during covid and beyond

1:05:48

, and I haven't done anything for probably over a

1:05:50

year now . I really ought to do some more , but

1:05:53

some people aren't aware

1:05:55

just how important some of these pioneers are

1:05:57

and how important they have been in shaping the field

1:05:59

. One of the things that really

1:06:02

kicked it off was I was lecturing to the students

1:06:04

about some of the protocols that we use

1:06:06

in managing problem behavior and I mentioned Vicky

1:06:08

Voith and students just looked at me

1:06:10

blank . I could have said well if

1:06:12

I said mickey mouse , I would have got more recognition and

1:06:15

I thought you don't realize that she's

1:06:17

the person who wrote all these protocols and

1:06:20

really codified and actually we've

1:06:22

become really quite sloppy in

1:06:24

the application of the original protocols

1:06:26

. So there is one with vicky the . The

1:06:29

first one I did was with Kathy Howell , who's

1:06:31

been very good to me , people like Ben

1:06:33

and Lynette Hart and many others . So if

1:06:35

people are interested in just hearing me

1:06:37

rabbit on and chat to other people who

1:06:39

I find really inspirational , then there's that

1:06:41

presence there as well .

1:06:43

Excellent , and then , as usual , be sure to link to those

1:06:45

in the show notes . I highly recommend that

1:06:47

as well . The

1:06:54

YouTube channel is excellent . I was listening in on some of those earlier on . So , historically it's also

1:06:56

fantastic because , as you said , some of these protocols get shifted , so it's great to hear from the original

1:06:59

pioneers . So absolutely , daniel

1:07:01

. Thank you so much . It's been wonderful and

1:07:04

I hope to see you again in the future .

1:07:06

Yep , hope to see you again soon . Thanks a lot , bye

1:07:08

now .

1:07:10

What an amazing way to wrap up this season . I'm

1:07:12

incredibly grateful for the chance to connect

1:07:15

with so many talented , knowledgeable

1:07:17

and passionate individuals in our community

1:07:20

, and Danny was no exception . A

1:07:23

special thanks to you for tuning in

1:07:25

and supporting the show . Your

1:07:27

support means the world to me and makes all

1:07:29

of this possible , and thank

1:07:31

you for everything you're doing to help the

1:07:33

dogs in your life . I'm

1:07:40

excited to kick off season six with more fantastic guests and hope to see or hear from

1:07:42

you at one of the upcoming AggressiveDogcom events . As

1:07:44

always , stay well , my friends .