Neuroscience experts, practitioners, research and methods for making brain-friendly organizations and healthy individuals. Subscribe to Mind Your Noodles!

  This is the sixth episode of the Mind Your Noodles podcast. In this episode our guest is author and neuroscience practitioner Christine Comaford. We discuss her SBM (Safety, Belonging and Mattering) Model, the difficulty of revenue inflection points and two tools to help employees aspire and own their own insights.  

Show Notes

[00:00:06]
Mind Your Noodles Episode 6

[00:01:33]
Christine's Story

[00:09:21]
SBM and the Brain

[00:15:55]
How the Brain Reacts

[00:20:17]
Looking for Role Models

[00:22:16]
Why Organizations Pull for Smart Tribes

[00:23:54]
Revenue Inflection Points

[00:27:34]
Two Tools

[00:34:00]
smartribes.com/ERA

[00:35:07]
Storytelling and Reframing

[00:39:51]
Emotional Change Takes Time

[00:40:47]
Start with the Willing

[00:42:42]
How to Approach the Organization - Smart Tribes Style

 

Transcript

Tripp: [00:00:06] Take care of the brains that take care of you with the Mind Your Noodles podcast or we keep you up to date on the latest neuroscience research and practices to keep your brain healthy. And strategies to help your organization be brain friendly. Hi I'm Tripp Babbitt host of mine your noodles. My guest today is Christine Comaford. Welcome Christine.

 

Christine: [00:00:38] Thank you. TRIPP It's awesome to be here.

 

Tripp: [00:00:40] Well I got to tell you Christine. I've spent the last week like inside your head somehow I've been watching videos of your book The Power your tribe book which is your latest book. I've been to YouTube I read your Web site I got your mission vision values sitting in front of me. And so just kind of introducing yourself to guests and I also know that you're into story so people of of have listened to an episode by park how talks about the importance of story. And by the way it seems to be the only thing people in the neuroscience world seem to agree on is storytelling.

 

Tripp: [00:01:17] So I thought that maybe you could give us your story and tell us a little bit about you and how how you wound up doing things in the neuroscience world. And I'll I'll just shut up at this point.

 

Christine: [00:01:33] Got it. Thank you. So you know what we do first. First let me just make sure he understands what we do. So at Smart Tribes Institute what we do is could be considered Applied Neuroscience if you will. We take the latest neuroscience research and the stuff that's useful to leadership and we then map that down to very specific very practical tools and we'll be talking about and sharing some of those tools today. So we are in executive coaching firm organizational development. We do workshops consulting coaching. So we are always looking at what in neuroscience has been discovered recently what have we learned recently that is actually relevant to optimal teams to leading on a new level to applying tools to sales and marketing. So let's just kind of a quick look at context if you will. So. So when I was 13 I started studying different religions because I wanted to understand what's the meaning of all this. And by the time I got to 15 I had studied a bunch of the different religions and I said you know what I think that it's important to start to understand human potential and then it was called human potential. So I went to a program called est Earhart seminars training and they said Come back when you're 18 and I thought you know there's gotta be a way around this. So I got my parents to take EST which is you know a very and which was a very intense personal development multiple weekend deep dive where basically you're totally ripped down so you can then build yourself up internally in a new way. And my parents when they were good sports and then they wrote a letter so I could go.

 

Christine: [00:03:15] And I learned that life is meaningless. You have to create meaning in your life and you can. And we have full 100 percent responsibility for whatever happens in our life. And I was absolutely fascinated by that and I thought that is so great why don't I just you know take control of my life and run away and start my you know start my career. So it's a totally delusional. So then I was 16 I had a fake I.D. I ran away in New York City.

 

Christine: [00:03:43] Nobody questioned Tripp. The easiest way to make my fake I.D. was to go from 1962 to 1952 right.

 

Christine: [00:03:52] Nobody questioned that there was a 16 year old who said she was 26. I mean like there's a huge difference in appearance but nobody bothered. So I got to I got to work in a neuroscience lab then it was called a human potential lab. And so I was totally geeking out on wow what makes people do what they do. How do they form beliefs. Where do behaviors come from you know identity come from all the stuff was super interesting to me. So I started at 16 and I was totally like burnt out with the world and I like being an adult. And at 17 I took my vows as a Buddhist monk. So then I thought you know I'm going to check out the god angle because maybe that's. It's like it's not the religion angle it's actually doing it. You know celibacy vegetarianism you know vouchers.

 

Christine: [00:04:43] So I did that for seven years but while I was doing that I was teaching myself how to program computers. So I thought wow well this is actually kind of programming the brain which is the coolest computer out there. But let's also learn like how to program computers because sooner or later this month thing might not work out and I'm going to need a job.

 

Christine: [00:05:00] So because I was like going you know I think we need to go down and they were like No let's go up and out I'm like. I think Buddhism is going the wrong direction you know and they're like Oh

 

Christine: [00:05:12] So I was you know you know I want to go in and down and in the in the the branch of Tibetan Buddhism I was and they wanted to transcend transcend. I'm like Oh I think we could deal with our stuff first you know. So anyway ultimately I broke my vows and went to a different type of monastery which was Microsoft. And I fit right in. You know. You know socially inept and all that stuff. And so what we what I did was I kind of brought all the the the spirituality stuff and the brain stuff and there how people form their beliefs stuff. And I kept working on it. And you know ultimately I built a bunch of companies sold them or took a public and the whole time I'd been just going Wow. Human beings. There's a there's a vast universe inside of each of us like let's understand it you know cause like that's like the great frontier the Star Trek was talking about. So. So that's how it all how it all started. OK.

 

Tripp: [00:06:09] So Christina I've written down a couple of things here. One is under achiever and low energy.

 

Christine: [00:06:18] Slacker.

 

Tripp: [00:06:18] Oh my God you're killing me. All right. Well this is great. No. That's a great story. I do like that story. So here we go. Go ahead.

 

Christine: [00:06:29] So I mean that's that so. So now what we do is what's kind of cool is I retired at 40 because I was like OK I've done it I've done business I've done money you know I've done all these other things that I'm done. You know now I'm just going to like chill out and you know hang out with nature and and then my dad got pancreatic cancer and I've been by then I had been a hospice volunteer. I've been volunteering with hospice for 20 years now. Now it's 20 years I've helped 43 people die. That's why volunteer work that I do. And and I really thought you know what all these stories start to come up. So I want to understand my life like my dad is dying. You know I want to understand my life. So I started running stories and ultimately became a book and then it became a New York Times bestseller and then suddenly everyone's calling me and I'm Unruh tired. So I became unretired at it at like 41. So I kind of failed retirement. And I'm like 56 now. And just that's what we do now we help companies help their people perform at new levels with much greater engagement fulfillment satisfaction lower burnout lower stress. And people just get to see how awesome they are and the companies get to thrive and do really well. Everybody's happy the tools work great. And it takes a lot less energy you know. So that's even better. Like why get it done in 60 hours when you could do it in 40 you know.

 

Tripp: [00:07:58] Yeah. Boy Lot to unpack there. I feel like I haven't lived up to my potential after listen to you tell those stories although I know people like you.

 

Christine: [00:08:13] Well that was my path. Let me just say that you think it might not fun and glamorous now but it was freaking hard. I'm thinking about your parents at the moment. Yeah. Yeah they were good sports. My mom just passed away in October of 2018.

 

Christine: [00:08:28] And yeah we use these tools. You know I use these tools with Mom and Dad as they were going through their death process. So some of the tools that we're going to learn today because it just helps us shift into you know a different mindset where there isn't suffering you know. OK.

 

Tripp: [00:08:43] Well in the beginning of Power Your Tribe you start to get into the brain and this whole thing on SBT and I've read enough books now you know people some people are comparing the importance of social as much as even sustenance and Maslow's hierarchy saying that those are actually equal.

 

Tripp: [00:09:08] You know they're going so far as to say some things like that. And and you've got to start us out a little bit with the basics of the brain and the whole concept of this SBT and what that acronym is.

 

Christine: [00:09:21] Yeah. And actually the acronym is SBM safety belonging mattering. Okay. No problem. So. So this is just gonna be a super high level view of the brain in the context of leadership. OK so three key parts of the brain reptilian brain a million brain and neocortex that's where the prefrontal cortex is reptilian brain. This is our brain stem. This is where we have this is basically our stimulus response machine coded for safety. This is where we have life support systems breathing temperature regulation balance the reptilian brain doesn't understand quality of life. So if you touch something hot you'll jump away just automatically right your reptilian brain because it's keeping you not dead. It doesn't think of living or dead it thinks of dead and not dead. So pretty simple really pretty simple pretty darn primal. OK. So concerned primarily with physical life you know physical not deadness. OK next mammalian brain which is more our emotional. Our emotions are our emotional brain concerned with whether somebody is a friend or foe. A little bit more evolved than dead or not definitely but still a stimulus response machine coded for emotional safety.

 

Christine: [00:10:42] Now the limbic system the debris always talks about the fight flight freeze response is a series of areas of the brain and in my experience the try and brain theory it kind of overlaps the reptilian mammalian so it's not quite so clean as to say it lives there. But here's what's interesting and here's what leaders need to really know. The hippocampus the hippocampus in the mammalian brain which is responsible for learning and memory. It's in the emotional brain. OK so what does this mean. Companies will have like Oh I'll walk into a company. Oh what are your values. Oh just a sec and they'll start digging through their file cabinet I'll be like Wait you don't like. No your values by heart. No. I mean you know they change and they're kind of boring and you know so they're not emotional. So if we want somebody to learn something we want somebody to retain something. We have to attach emotion to it. Why. Because humans are emotional beings emotions to a human are like wings to a bird.

 

Christine: [00:11:40] They are how we navigate our experience in the world. And if we look at the research from Carnegie Mellon M.I.T. Stanford Harvard NYU UCLA we will see that 90 percent 90 percent Tripp of our decisions of our behaviors are driven are dominated by our emotional brain. This stuff is important we use our intellect and we think our intellect is awesome and it is but it's 10 percent of our decision making is 10 percent of why we respond the way we do. So anyway we got them a million brain and it's saying Friend or foe. All right next we've got the neocortex. Prefrontal cortex is part think of it like a like a bike helmet. Maybe it goes it goes kind of across the top of your head a little bit goes a little bit towards the back and the prefrontal cortex is right behind your head. The prefrontal cortex is where we have decision making vision language skills tool making discrimination that doesn't quite work for me judgment. We have the ability to say I'm here but I want to be there how do I get there.

 

Christine: [00:12:46] So if the prefrontal cortex could speak it would say What can I create so much more interesting than friend or foe or dead or not. Right. But but what we want then as leaders is all three parts of the brain working well together. So we get innovation creativity we have the level of safety that we need and when we have all three parts working together we call this the smart state. Now what happens though when we have lots of stress changing directives random acts of violence out there in the world crazy political climate you know all sorts of challenges out there in the world we often will go into what we call critter state like a little animal like a little critter stay for not dead or not fight flight freeze. Right. That's when we are in kind of reptilian mammalian brain lockdown. And when anybody listening has been under major stress you might notice that you don't have great ability to envision things. You don't have great ability to make decisions you don't have great ability with language skills et cetera because that part of your brain is shut down. So as leaders we want to get people in and keep them in the Smart State and we'll talk about some tools to do that today. Now to answer your question about SBM if we look at why we do what we do humans don't really buy products or services. You know what we're looking for out there in the world are one of three key emotional experiences safety freedom from fear certainty knowing people have our back belonging knowing that we fit in we have equal value we are loved we are cared for and mattering knowing that we are making a difference uniquely we are not a cog in a wheel we are a unique expression of our unique accomplishments are unique gifts are being recognized and seen.

 

Christine: [00:14:37] Achievement is here as well. So if you look at a company culture if you look at a country right. If you look at why elections swing to this side or that it's always due to safety belonging and mattering you can look at all the different models the SCAERF model the self-determination model it doesn't matter. It all boils down to three things. Why have seven when you can have three right. It's easier to remember. Okay. All right. Yeah.

 

Tripp: [00:15:06] So. So I thought that kind of comes into my mind and I guess maybe I start to look at myself. You know I spent my entire career learning things around statistics and a kind of engineering types of things Lean Six Sigma and all those types of things.

 

Tripp: [00:15:27] And one of the things that I've found over the years is that they can be totally ineffective unless somehow you're connecting. But I didn't have a method. You know what I mean. I didn't have a I didn't have a system to go through to be able to understand that the people I'm talking to needed safety belonging and all those things. Before I could even start talk to them about data and all of that is would you say that that's true. Pretty much across the board.

 

Christine: [00:15:55] Yep. If somebody is craving safety and they're not feeling safe. Think about when you've had that experience. Right. You're not super open to anything else. You're just trying to be safe. Right. Belonging if you feel like you don't fit in. You've had that we've all had that weird experience of Oh man I don't feel like I fit in I don't feel like I'm part of this group. Right. That's super distracting and unsettling and then mattering if we feel invisible. Gosh that's painful. You know how we're going to perform at work if we're not seen and we're not appreciated right ow ow ow. So as leaders it's really important to notice what somebody is asking for because when they're in critter state remember their prefrontal cortex is off line. So when they're in critter state they're gonna have certain behaviors that will clue you in that they are actually asking you for safety. So when somebody's in Critter state and they want safety because they're not experiencing it they're going to spread gossip and rumors spread fear. Talk about getting the heck out of here talking about exit plans. Right. Because their tribe is back to that adage you know misery loves company company they're trying to they're trying to reconcile how they feel inside and what the world looks like outside. So if everybody else is scared right then OK I'm not nuts. If somebody wants belonging and they're feeling like they don't fit in they will isolate drop communication withhold information. Right. Because they're not feeling that they belong with the other people. So they start to kind of affect belonging in those around them. So important in leadership mattering if somebody is in Critter state makes sense.

 

Tripp: [00:17:40] Yeah. Oh yes. It just takes me back to when I first time I was a manager I didn't know what I was doing.

 

Tripp: [00:17:45] You know you know and and you know 42 years ago I mean it was just kind of I don't know Game of Thrones yet to live.

 

Christine: [00:17:58] Yeah.

 

Tripp: [00:17:59] Where were you forty two years ago. Don't answer it. You know.

 

Tripp: [00:18:06] So let's let's finish up with mattering so with mattering if somebody has the behavior of condescension arrogance at the extreme extreme extreme mattering absence of mattering we can see bullying. So I want us to start to have some compassion when we see these challenging behaviors and instead of judging the challenging behaviors say oh wait a sec wait a sec. This person just wants safety. Let me sit down with them. Ask them how they're doing and see how we can give them some experience of safety. This person just wants belonging they're not being a jerk and withholding information they're not feeling connected to us. Let's go bring them back into the tribe mattering this person who is saying I'm doing everything nobody appreciates me this place would fall apart without me they're just looking for some mattering let's say hey wow I really appreciate your unique accomplishments you know you're unique gifts I really see as a thought leader Hey can I run some stuff by you because I really value your opinion. See we don't have to judge each other anymore. We can as leaders as leaders if we if we signed up to be leaders we didn't sign up to be taken care of but we signed up to take care of others and to help others rise up. We signed up to cultivate and elevate others. And if you don't want to do that you know leadership isn't your gig. You know I find so many people get surprised what is the take care by people what cause you signed up to be a leader.

 

Tripp: [00:19:34] You know that's interesting. It's. And I've been I guess I go back. You. We didn't have back in the day when I was a young manager knowledge of these types this type of thinking. I mean even the neuroscience community really a lot of the research has been done over the last decade. I mean some of that data certainly got more people you know running with those types of things. I wonder if it's how much do you think Christine that it is that maybe people don't want to be leaders because they see the leaders that they have and they said that I want to be like that ever. You know because they don't have a method they don't have this system to be able to break things down.

 

Christine: [00:20:17] Ok. I think that's a really good point. Yeah. I don't it's not a role model right. Hey well I don't want to be that if that's what leadership is. Give me the heck out. Here right now. Yes. And I think the more I hate to see enlightened look let's say aware conscious the more aware the more conscious we become we can start to look because we do have some good examples of leaders in the world. We have a lot of video kind of counterexamples Well I do want to be that but we have some good examples. You know we have Warren Buffett. You know we have you know we have a handful of people that can just say oh gosh that doesn't work for me. Use discernment instead of judgment. I'm going to go ahead and do this. You know we have a handful of people that are really making a difference. So everyone needs to kind of find who is their role model. And even if your role model is a character in a movie that is fine. No seriously Abraham Lincoln JF JFK I mean you know I think Meg Whitman is a great example of leadership. And you know we've got a lot of examples and I think you know Bill Gates has definitely mellowed over his years. You know back in the 80s he was not a great example of leadership. You know now he definitely is. You know Steve Jobs had his days for sure. You know we're we're hoping that Mark Zuckerberg is going to really turn the corner and you know become a stronger example of leadership. You know the line best is a little bit of a counterexample right now. But when he went along Musk manages his emotional state and gets out a critter state where he seems to spend a lot of time you know he'll be a great example of leadership. OK.

 

Tripp: [00:21:54] So one of the things I wanted to talk about here. Great conversation though I think this is great foundational stuff to be able to have the rest of these this conversation. But why do organizations. You know maybe just a couple of reasons why people come to Christine or you know Smart Tribes for help. Why do they pull for you.

 

Christine: [00:22:16] Yes yes. People come to us and one of two scenarios they want to grow and they don't quite know how to get to that next level. I mean they could keep doing it slowly creeping along but they either don't quite know to get all the way that they want to get. And you know if you need a jungle guide if you want to navigate a jungle you've not been through before because we've built companies up to seven billion dollars. And so that's a lot. Knows all that. That covers a big enough landscape for us and we've worked with guys at 1 million. But so how to actually get your people mobilize your people so that they can navigate growth and change. That's kind of the primary reason. And then secondary is when it's a turnaround situation you know or it's a integration situation. Wow. We're changing the direction of the company entirely and people are kind of freaked out or one of our clients. I mean gosh they've been they've been acquiring anywhere between seven and 14 15 companies per year. That integration alone of bringing all those people together. So it's navigating growth and change. You know it's called the executive summary. Now anybody who's doing that needs to help their people get to the next level.

 

Tripp: [00:23:34] You mentioned one of the things that I caught on it and you called them I think there are inflection points for.

 

Christine: [00:23:40] Oh yes. Type of thing yes.

 

Tripp: [00:23:42] Is is this a good place to talk about. Sure. I wasn't sure I didn't get enough. I may be out of the reading of the videos or I got confused so I thought maybe you could share with us what that means.

 

Christine: [00:23:54] Yeah and we totally geek out on revenue inflection points in our second book which is Smart Tribes. So yeah with power your tribe you're not going to see that much of it. Yeah. Power your tribe is more about human behavior whereas Smart Tribes is more about how to create a company and the structure of it so that people get in and stay in their smart state more. So we found over the past 30 years there are certain points when a company hits this revenue number it's a whole new company. And there are three things we've got to really look at the people and how we're caring for the people and helping them grow and align in a role and engage them the money how we're working through sales and how we're financing the company and how we're structuring operations et cetera. And then model business model you know if the dessert topping is a failure maybe we can make it into a floor wax. You know like how are we actually tweaking and adapting and shifting our business model to match the industry people money and model.

 

Christine: [00:24:54] So we've found we map it all out in Smart Tribes that revenue inflection points occur really profound ones at 10 million 25 million 50 million one hundred million 250 million five hundred million and then it goes generally with each billion or so. Once you get up to about five billion you know a couple more billion doesn't really change thing that things that much. But I want to I want to notice that anybody listening. What happens is if we don't take care of the people. Money and model components and we have this chart that shows you what you need to do in each of those areas. If you don't take care of those you won't navigate to and through that next revenue inflection point. I cannot tell you Tripp how many companies come to us and they are stuck around 25 30 40 million. They can't get to 50 million and they swirl around below that 50 million revenue inflection point or worst case they start to slide backwards. So you have to have the tools to get to the next level or you're gonna swirl or slide backwards because again how are you going to get somewhere that you've never been before you know if you don't know that the path if you will. So we have sort of four components. There's leadership there's influence there is navigating change and growth and then there's optimal teaming. And for each of those segments if you will and there are a one day workshop in the Smart Tribes methodology there are about seven tools one has six one is nine but there's an average of seven tools per per component. And some companies you know they've got there they're navigating change okay maybe but they aren't they'd navigate a lot better if they had stronger influence with their people or if their leaders were engaging in enrolling people better or their teaming isn't totally working and people aren't coming together and connecting. So there's usually an obvious kind of sign there.

 

Tripp: [00:26:59] Okay. So on those. So that's why they're swirling around this 25 to 40 million because they're deficient in one of these areas one or more of these areas is is that kind of what you find.

 

Christine: [00:27:09] Yeah. And it reflects in the people money or model.

 

Tripp: [00:27:13] Okay yeah. More specifically than that or more generally the people money model piece. Okay. Yep yep yep. Okay. Is there something else you want to say about growth because you're also involved in kind of helping companies with kind of their salespeople and so forth is there.

 

Christine: [00:27:34] Yeah. There are two things I want to focus on and I want you guys to learn two tools. So for starters what we really need to do in the workplace is we need to help people aspire. So we're cold and hungry now but we're go to the Ritz Carlton 24/7 room service Egyptian cotton sheets. So it's it's hard now but I see how great it's gonna be okay. Aspiration second is we need to help people have their own insights not leaderships insights that are handed down their own insights. So let's talk about a couple of tools then we'll talk about a sales and marketing tool. The first tool that is fantastic to help people have their own insights is called the outcome frame the outcome frame is a series of questions and the outcome frame starts with what would you like. So maybe we're looking at the problem let's start to look at the outcome that we would like. Okay. Oh and we can we can send you these images you can put them on the website so people can have a companion visual to go with this podcast. So question number one what would you like something you can create and maintain. I you know I'd like more strategic time. Okay good. Question number two what will having that do for you. What are the benefits how will you feel. Well I'll feel more engaged more energized like I'm really making a difference to the company I feel peaceful and powerful and proud and it'll be awesome. Question number three How will you know when you have it this is going to be the proof the criteria. Well I have more strategic time when I spend two hours or more each week on strategy and planning when I cut the number of meetings I attend by 25 percent when my direct reports are at leadership level five or greater.

 

Christine: [00:29:11] Okay great. Number four my favorite question what a value what that you value might you risk or lose what side effects may occur. Well to get more strategic time I might initially feel less important because I'll be less involved in the minutia I'll have to let go of some control maybe resist the temptation to rescue people. I'll have to oh shoot I'll have to invest time and cultivating leadership My people won't magically rise up I'll have to actually cultivate them. So question number 4 is there is the reason you don't have the outcome that you wanted. So because this Leader isn't willing to do these things they don't have more strategic time. Makes sense. Yeah well two more questions. Okay. Question number five where when with whom would you like it what I wanted it work. I want it with my direct reports I want it in 45 days. Okay great. What are your next steps. We've got to get specific here set up recurring meetings on my calendar for one on ones to cultivate leaders leadership and offload work. Determine what you need to skip implement Smart Tribes effective meetings and delegation processes. So we've got to actually spend about 15 minutes on this outcome frame to make sure that we are brain is. Firing the visual auditory kinesthetic possibly olfactory is many of the five senses as are possible. So we are stepping into that glorious future and test driving it. We're not fantasizing about it. We're saying wow what's it like in that cool future where I have this. Oh yeah I want this it's worth it. QUESTION.

 

Tripp: [00:30:48] Yeah. SO. SO WHAT I SEE built you building here is exactly what you talked about early in our conversation which is you're building this emotional foundation to be able to grow. Is that.

 

Christine: [00:31:01] Yes. Okay. Yes yes yes. And what's happening in your brain okay neural coupling. OK we're starting to step into this future dopamine Y. Right we're releasing dopamine we're saying oh this feels really good. Yeah. That that's going to start to motivate the reward oriented behaviors. If we're listening to somebody telling us a story you know the person who is hearing the outcome frame they're actually there they're going to start to mirror the behavior of who they're hearing and then cortical activity. You know we're processing facts were we're connecting parts of our brain that are called Broca's and Wernicke's areas we don't need to get on that boat but we're we're actually experiencing those sensory cues of of actually having that outcome so powerful so often I find people just look at the problem and they complain about the problem. Our job as leaders is to help them shift and focus on the outcome so please use the Outcome Frame for that. And we have to also look at how much resistance there is out there so there are seven steps to really BOOT build emotional resilience. First is releasing resistance because that way it makes room for more choice. So start to notice what the heck are we resisting. Resisting takes a tremendous amount of energy and now start to look at use the Outcome Frame. Oh but what what I like. OK. Number two we've got to start increasing rapport with ourselves.

 

Christine: [00:32:35] I call it antisocial media because it's not really helping people get more connected. What helps people get more connected and we know this from Alexandria Arabians research many many years ago is when we're with people physically we're seeing them we're hearing them we can touch them you know we're connected to them more deeply so increasing report yourself increasing report the others actually getting face time. Number three making new meaning start to notice when you get stressed and when you're on critter state start to notice what stories you're telling yourself oh he's so hard to work with Oh I don't like this and then do an Outcome Frame Well what would I like. We are meaning making machines and the stories we tell ourselves create are reality reality is what you say it is Shakespeare told us this ages ago there's nothing good or bad only thinking makes it so what are you thinking about something and if it's not working shift your reality and look at what you would like and start to create that name before anchoring the outcome that's more complex you're gonna need to empower your tribe to learn how to do that five enrolling and engaging others bring your safety blanket mattering they're six build tribal agility expand and keep that good change going seven. Expanding tribal power so safety belonging mattering we can use a lot four five six and seven.

 

Christine: [00:34:00] So if we start to notice how often do I feel good versus how often do I feel bad that will help us understand our level of emotional resilience. Everybody write this down go to Smart Tribes Institute dot com SmartTribesInstitute.com/ERA That's an emotional resilience assessment it's going to take you gosh five minutes and here's what's so cool about it as you answer these questions and then you're gonna get your answers displayed on the screen as well as emailed to you right away you're then gonna know what tools to use from power your tribe to give you a better experience.

 

Christine: [00:34:46] Yeah super cool super effective.

 

Tripp: [00:34:48] By the way I will put those in the show notes too so that people have a link to it.

 

Christine: [00:34:52] Okay great. And I will give you the outcome frame image and then the emotional resilience image. OK cool.

 

Tripp: [00:34:59] All right so we're in growth and we're talking about the outcome frame and you've given us several things to think about there and the resistance.

 

Christine: [00:35:07] So those are the two things that you need for growth then well releasing resistance helps you then focus on the outcomes that you want. Okay. Okay. It's not it's not quite that simple but that's a starter. Okay. You know Navigating Growth and change You gotta look out for the emotional state right to safety belonging mattering. We want to make sure that we teach everybody to tell to tell news stories that we're telling a story that doesn't feel good. A lot of companies think about this in your experience. Tripp we've all done this. I have definitely done this myself. Think about when you have belonged with somebody around pain when you have belonged with somebody around maybe complaining about something right. That's what you have in common. So you get together and you complain about stuff. So you belong with each other. I want people to start looking at how we create belonging around things that are not actually empowering. So start to look at how do I connect with others around what topics are they expansive and positive and growth oriented or are they contracting and negative and do I feel sort of drained and discouraged afterwards because I want us to start to notice that we can shift that once again. What's the story. Basic reframing. What's the story we're telling ourselves. How does it make us feel. How would we like to feel. What's the story that we would need to change there. So in reframing I want us to start to notice daily as leaders one of our clients will give me an example.

 

Christine: [00:36:44] One of our clients they they had a really bad quarter who really and they're a public company. So they got smacked by the stock market really bad quarter. Everyone's all freaked out and the CEO gathers every together and says Hey everybody. What an educational quarter we just had. So it's not like gloom and doom. Layoffs are coming blah blah blah. No. Wow what an educational quarter we just had. We learned three key things. We learned that we had lost touch with our customers. They want upgrades to our product more often. We have learned that we have competition that we didn't take very seriously. They're nipping at our heels. We need to innovate faster. We need to increase our expand our product lines. And we learned actually that we have a handful of advocates that we've been ignoring. So in this next quarter we're going to tackle those three areas. We're going to get back on top. How great that we learned these lessons. And yeah it was painful but we got him we got him. Now let's take this next quarter and Rocket. Susie Q is going to own this initiative. Bob's going to own that initiative. Juan is going to own that initiative. Boom everybody knows what team they're on. Let's rocket instead of Oh my God it's a scary bad quarter. We're gonna do layoffs we suck and get.

 

Tripp: [00:38:08] This is actually a good segue way into kind of my next question which is kind of the purpose of this podcast is I come from a background of systems thinking which I know you're familiar with because I read where you talked about Peter Senge he and why you probably your mission vision and values just together.

 

Tripp: [00:38:28] And so so one of the things that that is part of actually my method which I call the 95 method is mostly about having method which can be so so in other words if I've got so far as I'm I to you talk you go for these things for growth for innovation there is this mindset that needs that you need to have but when you have that mindset you still need a method correct. I mean in order to.

 

Christine: [00:39:00] Oh yeah.

 

Tripp: [00:39:01] So. So from a method standpoint I do a podcast with a gentleman by the name of Doug Hawes worked with Disney and Procter and Gamble and Nike and and companies similar to you actually.

 

Tripp: [00:39:15] But he just focuses on innovation. He's the he's the big idea guy and an end-to-end system for. For doing it. And you know as I hear you talk. Lot of things I think I'm trying to get to is because I'm so method oriented and you play a method for kind of the brain is how how do we design in some of the stuff to build a brain friendly organization. How how how do y. Yeah you did so so that it's in need into the way that you've got your company designed.

 

Christine: [00:39:51] Ok well I have to tell you it doesn't happen overnight. And what we do when we do our leadership acceleration program is it's for one day workshops eight webinars. Thirty micro learnings which are a little short baby videos that people share with their teams and it takes about a year and a half. Mm hmm. And then the culture is absolutely transformed and I have to go forward before you know the outliers. Yeah we have had a few enormous companies where it took two and half to three years because it was enormous and we were transforming thousands and thousands of people.

 

Tripp: [00:40:25] But you still have the mindset began that that I heard and one of your videos I believe. Yeah. You talk about you know sometimes we just go in an organization will start with a team just a game. Yeah. So you see you're kind of breaking you're breaking down the elephant and if I get to you the whole elephant I go to it one by the time. So you're still taking the approach of let's start with an area or something like.

 

Christine: [00:40:47] Yeah because you've gotta it is sometimes it's too big to eat the elephant right. And so a client will come to us and they'll say OK help us with this you know group leaders and we'll start to see positive change and then everybody else would go Hey what's going on over there. How come you guys are knocking it out of the park and nobody else is you know let's figure this out let's do this. So what matters is that we we take this wherever people are receptive and we start to build a groundswell. So bottom up can often work better than top down you know because if it's top down at a huge organization. So when Procter and Gamble brought us then they had us work on their Latin American sales division. Great. I can get my arms around that. No problem you know. And we taught them a bunch of tools for connecting more deeply with our clients. We talked about safety belonging mattering for the client but we also taught them about Meta programs you know how do we step into the shoes of our client and actually feel and and understand the experience our client has having so we can message to them more effectively so we can connect with them more effectively so we can build trust much more quickly so we can actually have a profound meaningful connection instead of just you know we don't want a one off sale who wants that. You know we want a profound meaningful connection with our clients.

 

Tripp: [00:42:11] Ok so from your standpoint it's it's a it's kind of these classes that you have in order to to kind of build the brain friendly organization because you are in essence taking them right from where they are today. Yeah I'm trying to say OK. Because that what applies over here to Procter and Gamble isn't going to necessarily apply to Nike because they have different systems if you will. So you have to take them kind of. From that spot.

 

Christine: [00:42:42] Well we'd just Sec. They have but they have humans. Yeah. So we always look at what the business challenges and you know like the top three business challenges. That's where we know where to start. Okay. We're gonna start with optimal team stuff that optimal teams tools. Oh we're gonna start with the influence tools over here. So we look at what the what the greatest opportunities or challenges are at the company. And that's the tools that with that we start with you know and sometimes they just want transformation in that one area so they'll only get the tools in that area and that will be enough you know or they'll come back to us a year later hey you know we're ready for for some more tools. The way that these really get ingrained and this is why we have the workshops then the webinars in between the workshops and then the micro learnings so everybody in the company can watch a five to 10 minute video for each of the tools and learn that you know there are 30 to micro learnings you know the average bear in the company if they want to learn these tools they can't you know it's a scalable way to do it. And you know it can also be a great tribal thing where people come together in the lunch room and they watch one of the videos and they practice with the tools and then we give our clients all of the graphics and you'll walk through the halls of some of our clients and you'll see or at least in the meeting rooms you'll see our key infographics describing the Outcome Frame or myelin Asian or maneuvers of consciousness or reframing or cultural game plan or safety blocking mattering. You know you'll see our different diagrams. The emotion will you'll see better programs you'll see these these graphics so that people remember to use the tools because it's really helpful to have them in our environment.

 

Tripp: [00:44:22] All right very good. Let's now get a kind of interim phase here and we call it kind of the hot potato phase which is fitting. So so I am deeply embedded in the philosophy of W. Edwards Deming which we kind of emailed back and forth a little bit about and sectors I wrote some things down and it just there. There are things I'd be curious what your perspective is on. And the first one of that I want to talk about with regards to Deming philosophy is this concept of drive out fear. So one of his 14 points was drive out fear and you write about this in Power Your Tribes which is you know there's a lack of trust in in order to drive out that fear. Can you come in a little bit about how you drive fear out of organizations.

 

Christine: [00:45:13] Yes and fear. I find that many leaders you know are scaring their people into mediocrity. And we're scaring them and sending them into critter state. Not intentionally but we're scaring them with incomplete information with not making it safe to experiment or fail. Right. Public beheadings. We're creating fear by not having open clear communication having conflict avoidance is a great way to create fear. Having unrealistic perpetually unrealistic deadlines where people just can't do that much work in that short of time. Changing directives. Oh no we're not doing that anymore. We're doing this well nobody told me and I'd been doing that for two months. So we create fear and a lot of ways. But it primarily boils down to communication which is why that's our first corporate value. You know our company if we have if if human beings have clear explicit communication. In my experience you can get through anything. Okay.

 

Tripp: [00:46:26] All right. Yeah. I like that and obviously there's a ton of stuff in here about how to mitigate that fear in your book. The second one or another one because I got many but it would just get through a few of these. But there is the mindset of that we're all taught in the Deming philosophy ninety four a five percent of performance comes down to the system that you work in and one of the things I had trouble with early on is this kind of. There seems to be there's a component of neuroscience it's very individual the focus is on the individual. They're the problem they're the they're the focus of it as opposed to the system.

 

Tripp: [00:47:08] Now the system includes the individual. You kind of see where I'm going with this question. So. So I'm trying to reconcile. Yeah. He's from a Deming philosophy standpoint as Deming wrong because I'm open to that you know from a perspective of could have we learned enough to say it really is the individual and not the system and there are there. There's a lot more to that obviously to unpack but I'm not gonna do I just kind of want to hear what your initial reaction is to that.

 

Christine: [00:47:37] Yeah well but the individual is existing within a system.

 

Tripp: [00:47:41] True. yes.

 

Christine: [00:47:43] And that system is affecting the individuals. So so if we look at I mean for us we use six logical levels of change and that's sort of the environment the system that's happening in an organization. And if we look at the symptoms that are occurring we can understand where to change the system got it. So you know the environment physical emotional you know mental space I walked into a company a while ago it was an open floor plan and you just you walked in there and I was I was uncomfortable even breathing. It's like people were so uptight about being absolutely silent. And I was like This is ridiculous. Human beings aren't absolutely silent. You know and people were emailing each other and of just reaching over and talking to each other. It was e-mailing people like right next door to them. So you know there was just kind of this tense weird environment and you can have an open floor plan and do it really well. And so environment behavior what we do a person's or a company's values really define our behavior. That's why it's important up good values that people understand because it's the code of conduct or company values capability. Those are skills our tools are abilities you know how are our capabilities growing by being part of this system. Beliefs decisions you know meaning that we make about things outside of us. They are. It is you know the world is that the market is our customers our identity the decisions that we make about ourself right the meaning that we make about ourself. I am powerful I am valued I am capable I am safe I belong I matter. And then core you know the most sacred thing to the company and you know it's not profits. The most sacred thing to the company is like how that company is making a difference on this planet. Like why should we bother working there.

 

Tripp: [00:49:38] That's good. No I think that as I've helped organizations you know write Mission Vision Values nowadays. There are three components that I believe that it has to have. And one of them I just added in the last probably eight years which is the first one is customer some concept of customer some concept of innovation because of the rapid pace of change that we're facing in disruption that we face today. And then the third one is the one that you just talked about which is the greater good. How do we get you know how do how do how do we tap into that now. What do you think as you were talking through that kind of made a note and maybe you can help me with a a name for this. You know there's a say in in your your talk about the system I'm thinking in terms of maybe it's more because I have an engineering type of mindset brain which is the mechanical methods the Six Sigma the statistics you know those types of things versus the emotional system. And I you know that kind of you kind of added that by virtue of what I read while I was listening to you and there's probably a better name than mechanical but I'm just trying to come up with some type of label but that you're talking about that if we're going to affect 95 percent of the performance of a system we have to also account for the emotional system.

 

Christine: [00:51:01] Yeah. And here's the thing. I'm all for measurement yay measurement. But if we don't enroll and engage people they aren't going to use the measurement type systems.

 

Tripp: [00:51:14] Agreed. Yeah.

 

Christine: [00:51:15] They'll mock them. They'll skip them et cetera. And they will be all for naught.

 

Tripp: [00:51:21] So here here's another one that I wrote down that is just you know it's upsetting but is layoffs.

 

Tripp: [00:51:33] And you talked about in one of your videos you talked about exile and and people being exiled from there you know from organizations or from their countries. Right. That was the worst thing that could happen to you. And now I have this series of layoffs and we're creating did we have this culture now we're going to lay off this this person one of the things that Dr. Deming talked a lot about is you know there are reasons for. Companies have to lay off if you're in the financial dire straits and it's either sink or swim. I get it.

 

Christine: [00:52:04] You got to do it I guess.

 

Tripp: [00:52:05] I think where people have difficulty today is they see the dividend go up and oh I was laid off because they were able to build a new building or to raise their dividend or you know do something that a point. And Dr. Deming was a big advocate of before you do layoffs. What's first of all talk about did the leadership take a 10 percent cut in their pay.

 

Tripp: [00:52:28] You know sometimes where you're having an actual leadership you know what I'm saying that hey oh well we just had to do it and we just. And there seems to be this unemotional or this you know method and having been an executive and had to lay off people I can tell you it's it's very emotional. Oh yes. Not only to you. For you know why you're doing it but. And you're basically giving the marching orders right to took that you're going at the last people but the only reason to be is because you know find out that the CEO wants a new helicopter or once a week or something like that.

 

Tripp: [00:53:00] I think that's where we're you know as a culture or as a society we're starting to to push back on those types of things. What are your thoughts how do how do you write are you put into situations like that or do you then you get to the point where you're so in the growth and navigating growth and all those types of modes that you don't really come up against this.

 

Christine: [00:53:24] Oh no we come. We come up against layoffs we come up against terminations you know for non-performance you know or God forbid you know for epic cause you know I mean these are humans right. With humans you get the full spectrum of experience. If there are layoffs we have to have. We have to have. We have to have an explanation that is fair and makes sense. And you know sometimes a division is closed you know a product line is discontinued you know et cetera. But here's the thing when we lay people off we have to have a clear communication about it that actually makes sense. But then we also have to honor their contributions to the firm. You know so you know we're discounting continuing such and such product line. We haven't been able to find an internal job for Joe. So you know Joe Joe and his team you know will we'll be let go and we want to thank them for all the contributions that they made. And we're going to celebrate those contributions are going to do all that we can to outplace them to help them find their next adventure and we're gonna help them with their resumé or whatever you know. But yeah I mean just this is business. So I want to make sure that.

 

Christine: [00:54:37] We're balancing it's business and we have to run a a profitable healthy business that makes a difference in the world. And that does sometimes mean that people have to be let go for a variety of reasons. You're not going to have a culture with high employee retention and high employee engagement. If you're doing random layoffs that don't have stories that make sense.

 

Tripp: [00:55:05] Good answer. I'm going to ask one more question then I'll get to my last question. Great which is around who does and rewards one of the things that Dr. Deming railed against was the concept of quotas versus rewards. And as we've seen like with Wells Fargo and a number of other companies over the years Sears I think with their automotive repair business too. But you don't have to look far too tough to find bad behavior with regards to how those drive certain behaviors within organizations. How do you we know rewards people want rewards. Right yeah. I I've I've read in your book where you've talked about the emotional is greater than than the reward that you get. And and people are more involved with winning career path and public recognition that then rewards. But just that this this concept that you know especially in the US to be win because of Deming came back to the U.S. from Japan it's basically boy rewards are killing us here. You know there people are doing dysfunctional things to hit their quarterly goals so that their price will go up. Those types of things how do you how do you what are your thoughts on that.

 

Christine: [00:56:20] So I do believe in rewards and consequences and consequences just you know if you drop the ball there will be a consequence there won't be a punishment there won't be a shaming you know but there will be a hey you know Are you OK you know and walking through we have four questions that we walk people through. If somebody you know has an accountability challenge and they drop the ball. But but I find you know one of the greatest problems with quotas is that people don't provide what these sales people for example truly need in order to meet their quota or worst case scenario they actually cap it. You can only make so much commission which is insane because if you have a salesperson that wants to sell like crazy let them you know why would you ever want to mess that up. So I think we like to use needle movers that the minimum acceptable performance because you have to tell people what you expect them to perform you know where how you expect them to perform the minimum acceptable. Rawlence The target is what you want them to hit. The mind blower is wow you know if if we can hit this number that's really amazing at NYU. Emily Balcetis actually did some research at NYU where she also used three levels of goals if you will.

 

Christine: [00:57:34] She called it something like easy moderate and impossible. I don't like the word impossible because I don't think that it's actually Tripp. But what she found was the systolic blood pressure which is our our readiness to act was so so on. Easy OK high on moderate on the middle one that we would call target and then a little bit lower on the one that she called impossible. So what does this mean. This means that our focus and our readiness to act works is stronger when we actually have three goals three levels of a given goal barely acceptable. What we really want and will if we knock it out of the park. Because when you have this you're going to get the what we really want. One of the middle but goals are often set in a binary way achieve this you know or you're in trouble. And the brain doesn't like that the brain can actually we perceive goals as spatial as psychological as physical. The way the brain deals with goals. So when we have these three levels we can actually move. If you look at what's happening with people who use these three levels we actually move the perception of that goal closer it feels easier and we can imagine achieving it more effectively.

 

Tripp: [00:58:51] Okay. And just that just to come in I know Dr. Deming comment with regards to quotas what is our targets even is, "By what method?" So you know and I think that's you we're getting there. There's probably a longer conversation associated with that but that because that's guess that's a good start. So my last question to you Christine is this Is there anything that you during the course of our conversation that you'd like to make some clarification of. Or is there anything that I didn't ask that you wish I would have more.

 

Christine: [00:59:22] Good for now. Ok. But the executive summary is leadership is a privilege it is our great good fortune as leaders to have amazing people to work with so please invest in your people look at their emotional experience help them. The better emotional experience so they can give you the performance that you want. Everybody wins.

 

Tripp: [00:59:43] Fascinating stuff. Please get Christine Comaford's latest book Power Your Tribe. We appreciate you being a guest on Mind Your Noodles.

 

Christine: [00:59:53] Thank you. And if you guys want to get our regular tools that we send out monthly go to work with s t i. Dot com and you'll get little goodies from us every month. Work with SETI dot com.

 

Tripp: [01:00:08] Very good and we'll put that in the show notes also. Thank you again Christine.

 

Christine: [01:00:11] Thank you.

 

Tripp: [01:00:12] Bye bye.