0:00

Short home for joining us this hour. We are continuing

0:02

tonight to watch developments in

0:04

Turkey and in Syria. The

0:07

deaf hole there is just astonishingly high

0:10

right now from an absolutely

0:12

huge earthquake and an equally

0:14

large aftershock that

0:16

hit today. The initial

0:18

quake was centered in South Central Turkey.

0:21

That initial jolt hit between

0:23

four and four thirty in the morning, so people

0:25

were home in their beds. That initial

0:28

quake was a seven point eight magnitude,

0:30

which is just enormous. And it was

0:32

followed hours later by an aftershock that

0:34

was seven point five. Now

0:36

having such a huge quick like that followed

0:38

in such quick succession by such almost

0:41

an equally large quake means anything

0:43

that was significantly damaged

0:45

but still standing after the first shock.

0:48

It came down in the aftershock.

0:51

In Turkey alone, they're saying there are more than

0:54

five thousand buildings that have

0:56

collapsed across fourteen different Turkish

0:58

cities. Across the southern

1:00

border of Turkey into northern Syria,

1:03

there are again thousands of buildings

1:05

collapsed there as well. Between Turkey

1:07

and Syria, we are talking about death toll

1:09

already that is approaching four thousand

1:11

people killed. With many

1:13

many many more thousands of people injured.

1:17

Tonight, of course, is the twin horror

1:19

of trying to rescue bolt trapped in the

1:21

rubble and under collapsed buildings, while

1:23

also fully expecting that more

1:26

damaged buildings will continue to

1:28

collapse. While rescue efforts are underway, but

1:30

the survivors and the rescuers are

1:33

in grave peril. Now,

1:35

and it is cold tonight. In

1:38

this part of Turkey and Syria. The

1:41

National Security Council announced tonight that the United

1:43

States is immediately deploying two

1:45

experienced urban search and rescue

1:48

teams. Each of those is a team of seventy

1:50

nine people. Presumably, they

1:52

are shipping out immediately. It can't be

1:54

soon enough. You

1:56

may be old enough to remember that there was a

1:58

devastating, devastating earthquake

2:01

in Turkey in nineteen ninety nine.

2:04

This was one of biggest natural disasters of

2:06

my lifetime. That nineteen ninety

2:08

nine quake in Turkey killed between fifteen

2:10

and twenty thousand people. It was seen

2:12

as a global level catastrophe. I

2:15

have to tell you, in magnitude, that

2:17

earthquake in nineteen ninety nine was smaller

2:19

than the one that hit today. Part

2:23

of the problem with responding to this one

2:25

today is that it was such

2:27

a big quake It it has

2:29

flattened buildings in such a large

2:31

area. Ten different Turkish provinces are

2:33

an emergency response right now. And then

2:35

in Syria, it's almost an equally large

2:38

area, but in Syria, the response is complicated

2:40

by the ongoing civil war there and the

2:43

refugee crisis that it has created. The

2:45

International Rescue Committee is calling the situation

2:48

in Syria, in particular, an emergency

2:50

within an emergency. Again,

2:53

the death toll already is almost unbelievably

2:56

high. It is nearing four thousand as

2:58

of right now, but there is reason to worry that that

3:00

number is going to rise substantially. It

3:03

is potentially going to be

3:05

rising by a multiple. This

3:08

is a big enough disaster that it is going to

3:10

change this part of the world. And

3:12

countries all over the world. From us

3:14

to Iran, from Switzerland

3:17

to Hungary, everyone all over the world,

3:19

that has rescue teams to send. They are

3:21

sending their rescue teams right now. As

3:23

I said, we are watching this story develop tonight.

3:25

We will let you know more as

3:27

we learn more. I

3:30

should also tell you that we're going to be joined live tonight

3:32

by Kathleen Belieu. She is one of

3:34

the nation's leading researchers on

3:36

far right streamism and white power

3:38

movements. We've had her here as a guest on

3:41

the show in the past. Tonight, she's

3:43

gonna be here because the Department of Justice today held

3:45

a dramatic surprise press conference about

3:47

a plot, they believe they disrupted by

3:50

a neo Nazi group leader and one other

3:52

person to launch an attack on

3:54

the electrical power grid in Maryland.

3:58

In just the last three months, we have seen at

4:00

least nine different attacks in three different

4:02

states targeting electrical power substations

4:05

to deliberately cause power outages

4:07

and damage electrical infrastructure, so

4:09

power can't be returned easily. One

4:12

of the unsettling emerging themes in

4:14

these attacks is the frequent involvement of

4:16

white supremacist and neo Nazi groups.

4:19

This is emerging as their current terroristic

4:21

tactic choice. Now, it's not

4:23

always them, but it appears to be often

4:25

them as they plan these power grid

4:27

attacks to try to set off civil unrest

4:29

and but they hope will ultimately be

4:31

race war. But again, this

4:33

was a surprise announcement by the FBI

4:36

and the justice department in Maryland today

4:38

Kathleen Balu is a researcher, a leading

4:40

researcher on these kinds of threats in the United

4:42

States. She's gonna be joining us here live

4:45

tonight. But we start tonight.

4:47

With a story and with a guest who

4:50

has everybody tying themselves up in knots

4:52

right now. He is a big

4:54

deal veteran New York lawyer.

4:56

His name is Paul excuse me. His name

4:58

is Mark As a

5:00

federal prosecutor in the southern district of

5:02

New York, Mark Palmarence led both the appellate

5:05

unit at SDNY and also

5:07

the 'cried division at SDNY. That

5:09

is not a normal prosecutor biography.

5:12

That is a big deal. In

5:14

private practice, he litigated everything

5:16

from mob cases to the

5:18

most complex financial cases you can

5:20

imagine. He was involved in cases involving everyone

5:23

from Steve Jobs to

5:25

Osama Bin Laden from the head of the

5:27

230206 crime family to Citigroup and

5:29

Lehman Brothers and Imclone He's

5:32

a big deal lawyer, and that's why it was a big deal

5:34

piece of news. That's why it was national

5:37

TV leading news in February twenty

5:39

twenty one when it became known that This

5:41

man, Mark had come

5:43

out of retirement and been sworn

5:45

in as a special assistant DA

5:48

at the New York District Attorney's Office.

5:50

Specifically to work on that New York

5:52

prosecutor's investigation of

5:54

former president Donald Trump. Mark

5:58

tenure in that office, that unusual tenure

6:01

of his at the DA's office, specifically for

6:03

the Trump investigation. It

6:06

lasted about a year. And

6:08

by the end of that year, in February

6:10

twenty twenty two, he'd been sworn in February

6:12

twenty one left in February

6:14

twenty two. By the time he left,

6:17

there had been no criminal charges brought

6:19

against Donald Trump by that office. And

6:22

mister Pomerantz once again made national

6:24

headline news when he quit because

6:27

he quit in loud protest of the fact

6:29

that Trump had not yet been charged. His

6:31

resignation letter in fact appeared in the New

6:33

York Times. In it, he said that he and

6:35

his investigative team had determined that

6:37

there was no doubt that Trump was guilty

6:39

of numerous felony violations.

6:42

He described it as a grave failure

6:44

of justice, but there hadn't been charges

6:47

levied against Trump. And

6:49

he left. Like

6:51

I said, the man is a bit of a backfiring

6:54

motorcycle, whether he intends it or

6:56

not Fireworks and a lot of noises

6:58

seem to follow him closely wherever he goes at

7:00

this point in his career. But

7:03

now, 'cried the metaphor forward, it is starting

7:05

to feel like the full on fourth of July. In

7:07

terms of the fireworks surrounding him,

7:09

because now Pomerantz is out as

7:12

of midnight tonight with this new book, which is called

7:14

People versus Donald Trump, an inside account.

7:16

And in this slim book, He

7:19

starts off with a bombshell revelation.

7:23

He explains early on in the book

7:25

that it wasn't just that he wanted to bring charges

7:27

against former president Donald Trump, he says

7:30

the district attorney, the New York DA,

7:32

who brought him into the office and hired him to work

7:34

on the case, he wanted charges

7:36

too. Mark Pomerantz says that

7:38

in December twenty twenty one, just over

7:40

a year after Trump lost reelection, on

7:43

December third teeth twenty twenty one, he

7:45

says the then serving prosecutor in the Manhattan

7:48

DA's office, Xivance, authorized

7:50

criminal charges against former president

7:53

Trump. Charges related to alleged

7:55

financial 'cried, allegedly

7:57

submitting fake valuations of

7:59

his properties and his assets in order to get banks

8:01

to loan him money. December

8:03

thirteenth twenty twenty one, Mark Pomerantz

8:06

says the d a in New York gave the okay

8:08

to pursue criminal charges along those lines

8:10

against Trump. However,

8:13

no such charges were filed. No such

8:15

indictment was sought from a grand jury.

8:18

And as Mark Pomerantz explains in his

8:20

he says that is because two

8:22

and a half, three weeks after that green

8:24

light from Cylance The

8:27

New York DA, A

8:29

new New York DA was sworn in.

8:32

Cylance left office without running

8:34

for reelection. The newly elected

8:36

DA, Alvin Bragg, who you see here, was

8:38

sworn in on New Year's Day, twenty twenty

8:40

two. And of course,

8:42

for something as big a deal as the first

8:44

time a president or former president has

8:46

ever been charged with time in the whole history of

8:49

this country, the new DA would have to

8:51

be okay with that plan if

8:53

something that dramatic and that historic was

8:55

gonna happen under his watch. As

8:57

Mark Pomerantz tells the story in his new book,

8:59

Alvin Bragg, The New DA was not okay

9:02

with that happening on his watch, at least not

9:04

then. New York DA, a

9:06

new one, Alvin Bragg, says he

9:08

just didn't think the case was ready to go ahead.

9:12

Mark Pomerantz he 'cried strongly

9:14

with that assessment. He

9:17

plead his proverbial case. He got very

9:19

frustrated. I think it's fair to say, and

9:21

he left the DA's office again too

9:23

much fanfare. But

9:25

now, as we sit here tonight, two

9:28

things have happened. Number one,

9:31

the New York DA, Alvin Bragg, has

9:33

gone ahead with what appears to be a criminal

9:35

grand jury presentation about Donald Trump.

9:38

The grand jury is hearing

9:40

witnesses and the presentation of evidence

9:43

presumably toward a potential indictment

9:45

of Trump This started

9:47

last week. And second

9:50

thing. Mark Pomerantz

9:52

tonight is publishing this book. About

9:54

his experience investigating Trump, his

9:56

understanding of the evidence against

9:58

Trump, and his account of

10:00

the wrangling among prosecutors and

10:02

investigators about what they

10:05

should do about Trump's alleged

10:07

criminal behavior. And

10:09

I am not exaggerating to say that this

10:11

book is making everybody lose their mind. It's

10:13

making everybody very angry. People

10:16

really are losing their damn minds over this book.

10:18

And it is full of red hot

10:21

allegations and information. I mean,

10:23

Pomerantz is criticizing the DA

10:25

for a decision not to

10:28

go ahead a year ago with

10:30

potential charges against Trump. But

10:33

the DA does now appear to be pursuing

10:35

something along those lines. And we're

10:37

going to talk about that in detail tonight, the difference

10:39

between what the DA appears to be pursuing with

10:41

the grand jury right now versus what Pomerantz

10:44

wanted to charge Trump with a couple of years

10:46

ago. But people are also

10:48

mad because here's Mark Pomerantz. Who

10:50

was involved in this investigation', now

10:53

talking and writing about how the investigation

10:55

worked and what they thought and what they found and what

10:57

they argued about behind the scenes. And because

10:59

of that very unusual circumstance from

11:01

a cross somebody who is working in a prosecutor's office,

11:04

there is, right now, sort

11:07

of a a furious counterargument against

11:10

mister Pomerantz and how he wanted to approach

11:12

this case and what charges he wanted to bring.

11:14

So there's an argument against him on the substance.

11:17

But there's also just this free floating

11:19

lawyer fury out there over his decision

11:21

to publish anything about the case at all.

11:26

And I can tell you, that

11:29

is gladiatorial combat

11:31

among lawyers that I am very interested in

11:33

watching. But I am not at all interested

11:35

in joining that. I am not one of

11:37

those gladiators. I am not in fact even

11:39

a lawyer. What I am interested in

11:42

is that we, the public, and we, the press, for better,

11:44

for worse, we do now get the benefit

11:46

of what Mark can describe to

11:48

us. As the strength of

11:50

the evidence against Trump, its potential

11:52

weaknesses, potential charges

11:54

against Trump, and the wherewithal,

11:57

of the prosecutors who in New York at least

11:59

appear to have Trump in their sights. From

12:01

mister Pomerantz book, for example,

12:03

we learned that there were

12:06

at least nine. He lists

12:08

nine different areas of criminal

12:10

inquiry into Trump by the DA's

12:12

office when Pomerantz came on board in

12:14

late twenty twenty. Nine, that

12:18

he he tells us that serious consideration was

12:20

given in twenty twenty one to charging Trump

12:22

with money laundering in conjunction with his

12:24

hush money payments to a porn star in

12:26

twenty sixteen. He tells us that

12:28

serious consideration was given in twenty twenty

12:31

one to charging Trump with enterprise

12:33

corruption. Meaning they

12:35

considered a state repo indictment against

12:38

him as if he were a mob boss.

12:41

And Pomerantz tells us that in conjunction

12:44

with the DA telling prosecutors

12:46

in his office that they could go ahead with their

12:48

plans to charge Trump. Mark

12:51

Pomerantz says they did in fact draw draft

12:54

charging languages. Excuse me, draft

12:56

charging language for potential

12:58

charges against Trump. So

13:01

that's all new. We didn't know any of that.

13:05

And again, there is wild free

13:07

flowing lawyer rage Rage

13:10

in lawyer circles about Mark Pomerantz

13:12

having let us know that information at all.

13:16

But course, I'm greedy. It just all makes

13:18

me want to know more. Joining

13:20

us now for his first live interview in advance

13:22

of his books publication tonight at midnight smark

13:25

Pomerantz. Veteran New York lawyer,

13:27

former federal prosecutor, formerly a

13:29

special assistant district attorney in the New York

13:31

DA's office working there specifically on the

13:33

investigation of former president Donald j

13:35

Trump, Pomerantz. Thank you for being here. Well,

13:37

thank thank you for inviting me and

13:40

I appreciate it. I appreciate the opportunity to

13:42

talk to

13:42

you. I don't think that I am creating more

13:45

free flowing rage about you by

13:48

letting the audience know that there is a lot of it.

13:51

But I have to ask if anything that I just said, if you want

13:53

to take issue with or if there's anything that I described

13:55

wrongly.

13:55

No. The only thing I might take issue

13:58

with that my family would take issue

14:00

with is describing me as such a big deal.

14:02

Doesn't feel that way to me. I'm

14:05

writing the book as a seventy

14:07

almost seventy two year old

14:11

not quite retired lawyer, but

14:15

thank you for having. Well, I'm happy to

14:17

have you. You are

14:19

a man who knows of what you speak

14:21

and who has been there and done that in terms of the law,

14:23

both as a federal prosecutor and to

14:25

somebody in private factors has been a lot involved in

14:27

a lot of complex cases. Let

14:29

me ask you first of all about something alluded

14:32

to in the introduction, which is that since

14:34

the book was completed, I know from

14:36

sort of a close reading to the use of

14:38

tents in the way that you're describing it.

14:40

Since the book was completed, we have seen these moves

14:42

by the New York DA

14:45

to make a presentment of evidence of some kind

14:47

to a grand jury in New York. That would seem

14:49

to be leading toward potentially asking that grand

14:51

jury to indict mister Trump. From what

14:53

we know in public reporting about what's before

14:55

the grand jury right now, people are describing the

14:58

grand jury is hearing witness testimony

15:00

and and reviewing other evidence about those hush money

15:02

payments. How does that

15:05

differ from what you thought

15:07

that the DA should charge?

15:09

Well, when we were looking

15:11

at charging Donald Trump, we were

15:13

looking at a whole range

15:16

of falsified business records. And

15:18

the bulk of the case had to do with his personal

15:21

financial statements, which we

15:23

believed overstated the value

15:25

of his assets and his net worth by

15:27

billions of dollars a year for many

15:30

years running and enabled him

15:32

to get bank financing and

15:34

other business advantages. At the

15:36

same time, we had looked at the

15:38

hush money payments And

15:41

by the end of two thousand

15:43

twenty one, the charges

15:45

that we had in mind to bring would

15:47

have included the hush money payment.

15:50

It's the it's the falsified business

15:52

records relating to the reimbursement

15:55

that was paid to Michael Cohen for

15:57

the hush money that was paid to steal Cohen

15:59

paid out the hush money. It was

16:01

he was paid back by the Trump and

16:04

they came up with all sorts of false ways to

16:06

describe what that payment to describe

16:08

and account for that payment in their books?

16:10

That's right. The the repayment to

16:13

Cohen was disguised

16:15

as the payment for legal

16:18

services rendered on a monthly basis

16:20

pursuant to a retainer agreement. Except

16:22

there was no retainer agreement. There were

16:24

no legal services rendered. And

16:27

he was just being repaid for

16:29

the money that had been paid on

16:31

Donald Trump's behalf to Stormy Daniels

16:34

and and some other money as well.

16:36

So in order to guys,

16:39

the manner, the mechanism for the repayment,

16:41

false business records were 'cried, and

16:43

that was the crime that we were

16:46

looking

16:46

at. Now in technical terms, you

16:48

'cried that there's a problem with that because unless

16:51

those false business records were created

16:54

to conceal another

16:56

'cried, that would just be a misdemeanor.

16:58

It sort of wouldn't be worth bringing against

17:00

Trump. In order for it to be a felony, there

17:03

had to be some effort to

17:05

conceal some other

17:07

crime. Is that right? Did I understand that correctly?

17:09

It certainly

17:11

you need the intent to commit

17:13

or conceal another crime to

17:16

raise the offense of a falsified

17:18

business record to felony from an misdemeanor.

17:21

Now you say a misdemeanor wouldn't be

17:23

worth bringing against Donald Trump, reasonable

17:25

people could take issue with

17:27

that. When we

17:29

first looked at the falsified business

17:31

records and saw

17:34

the legal problem, and there was a legal

17:36

problem because It's not

17:38

clear whether the other crime

17:40

that a defendant has to contend

17:43

to conceal or commit, whether

17:45

federal crimes count. Michael Collins

17:47

pled guilty to a federal crime, a federal election

17:49

law violation, but it's not

17:52

clear from the language of the statute that

17:54

this another crime that

17:56

raises the misdemeanor to a felony can

17:59

be a federal offense. It

18:01

may be that that works. It

18:03

may not be that that works. It's an undecided

18:05

issue under New York law. So when

18:07

we first looked at it, we saw, j,

18:09

there's a real risk here, a legal risk

18:12

that if we bring felony charges, they'll be

18:14

reduced to misdemeanors, and

18:16

we're investigating a whole slew,

18:18

as you mentioned, of other fell

18:20

any charges. So the first

18:23

time in my tenure when this came up,

18:25

we took the decision. Let's table the

18:28

hush money situation. We refer

18:30

to it in the office internally as

18:32

the zombie case because it

18:34

it rose from the dead, went

18:37

back into slumber, rose from the dead, and this

18:39

happened a number of times. So

18:41

we decided to keep the zombie case

18:44

in the grave for the moment until

18:47

we got further down the road of investigation'.

18:49

Then toward the end of the investigation, as I've

18:51

said, we intended to

18:53

join those charges with

18:57

the more consequential charges

19:00

that we hope to bring regarding

19:02

the years of false financial

19:04

statements? I mentioned in

19:06

the introduction that there were at

19:08

least nine different sort

19:10

of criminal areas of areas of inquiry

19:13

about potential criminality that

19:15

the DA's office was looking into at the

19:17

time that you joined. You

19:19

said one of them was the hush money payment

19:21

to Stormy Daniels, another one was taxes,

19:23

potential improper business expense deductions,

19:26

deductions of consulting fees, in

19:28

his relationship with Deutsche Bank. Could he have defrauded

19:31

Deutsche Bank by getting financing through

19:33

overstated financial statements? Whether

19:36

he'd engaged in money laundering through Deutsche

19:38

Bank, using overseas bank accounts,

19:40

the accuracy of materials he provided to the

19:42

GSA about the old post office and

19:45

and and a and a host of other things, including

19:47

insurance fraud, the restructuring

19:50

of his loan on his Chicago skyscraper,

19:52

you go on and on and on. When

19:54

you 'cried that litany of areas

19:56

of potential criminal inquiry for Trump and

19:58

when you describe your reasoning

20:01

and the debate between you

20:03

and your team about the hush money

20:05

thing. Are you giving

20:07

a potential lifeline to Donald Trump's

20:10

defense lawyers that if they do end up getting

20:12

charged with anything related to any of those

20:14

items, including the hush money matter, that

20:17

your book could be used as evidence essentially

20:20

to try to question the charges

20:22

in court to say, look, prosecutors have been looking

20:24

at this stuff for a long time. Responsible prosecutors

20:26

looked at this, decided there was nothing there and didn't charge

20:28

it in the past. This is selective prosecution

20:31

or this is or an overreach. Have you

20:33

given have you given the defense a a leg up

20:35

here? Look, I don't think we've given the

20:37

defense any kind of leg up when you

20:39

look at the public reporting

20:42

about the Grand jury presentation

20:44

that may now be underway. Obviously, I don't know

20:47

what's going on behind closed doors

20:49

in the DA's office. And

20:51

I don't know what evidence is being

20:53

presented. I don't know whether charges will be

20:55

brought. But as it relates to

20:57

the hush money circumstances, those

21:01

facts have been known literally for

21:03

years. Michael Cohen wrote

21:05

about them in his book. He testified

21:08

about them. Stormy Daniels wrote a book.

21:10

Stormy Daniels appeared on Michael

21:12

Cohen's podcast to talk about it and

21:15

the federal prosecutors brought their

21:17

own prosecution based on those facts.

21:19

So I'm not letting any

21:22

cats out of the bag, if you will. Those cats

21:24

have been running all over

21:26

the place literally for

21:27

years. But the reasoning about whether or not to bring

21:30

charges based on those facts Is that potentially

21:32

helpful to any defense counsel?

21:34

I don't think so. The legal issue

21:36

that I've noted in the book is

21:39

an issue that appears on the face of the statute.

21:41

It's already been written about, was written

21:43

about before my book has

21:45

come out. On

21:47

the financial statement side of

21:50

the coin, we don't know. I

21:52

I certainly don't know what investigation is

21:55

taking place if any. I don't know whether

21:57

charges will ultimately be brought.

22:00

What I do know is that the evidence

22:02

underlying the charges we intended

22:05

to bring is all out there

22:07

in the public record in the civil

22:09

case that the Attorney General of the

22:11

State of New York, Leticia James, brought.

22:14

She filed a civil complaint of

22:16

well over two hundred pages which

22:19

lays out in abundant

22:21

detail. The assets

22:24

that were missvalued basis for

22:26

the overvaluation of the assets.

22:28

That is how she concluded and why she concluded

22:30

that the assets were overvalued. And

22:33

the evidence that we were looking

22:35

at in connection with a potential

22:38

criminal case has been laid out

22:40

in chapter and verse in

22:42

that complaint. And again, there is

22:44

nothing in my book about

22:47

the financial statement investigation

22:51

that the criminal investigation that we were

22:53

doing, there are no new facts that

22:55

don't appear in the attorney general's

22:57

complaint. So I was

22:59

pretty well satisfied when I wrote

23:01

the book that I wasn't

23:03

going to interfere with any potential

23:06

prosecution. And look, I I wrote

23:08

the book in part

23:10

to say, there should have been

23:12

a criminal prosecution. There needs

23:14

to be a criminal prosecution. Netcast

23:16

thing I would have done is

23:18

to do something that would get in the way

23:21

of a criminal prosecution that I thought and

23:23

still think should be

23:24

brought. And now there might 230206

23:27

one. I have much more to ask you. Please

23:29

stay right there. Our guest is

23:31

Mark Pomerantz, who until

23:33

last year led an investigation into former

23:35

president Donald Trump at the New York DA's office.

23:38

His new book about his time there is

23:40

called the People versus Donald Trump. It's

23:42

out tonight. At midnight, we'll be right back,

23:44

stay with us.

23:50

This is from Page one thirteen

23:53

of Mark Pomerantz his new book, which is called

23:55

People versus Donald Trump. It comes out tonight at midnight.

23:58

We were looking at instance after instance of

24:00

suspected illegal conduct. Of

24:02

course, they had to be provable, but if

24:04

they were proved their collective weight left no

24:06

doubt in my mind that Trump deserved to be

24:08

prosecuted. Measures short of criminal

24:10

prosecution had been used against Trump

24:12

and he had dismissed them as trivial. Looking

24:15

at the totality of Trump's conduct over the

24:17

years, I thought it was crystal clear that measures

24:19

measure short of criminal prosecution meant nothing

24:22

to him and would not deter him in the slightest

24:24

from engaging another antisocial behavior.

24:26

Indeed, the more successful he became, the more

24:28

brazen was his behavior He'd stiffed

24:30

many contractors and small business owners

24:32

who decided to advance services

24:35

or products to Trump organization because after

24:37

all, Donald Trump was so wealthy. Michael

24:39

Cohen had told us that a big part of his job was telling

24:42

small creditors who did business with Trump that they weren't

24:44

gonna get paid and forcing them to accept

24:46

whatever modest sums Trump

24:48

would give them. The enterprise corruption

24:51

statue targeted just this kind of

24:53

behavior, using a pattern of criminal

24:55

activity to increase an entity's economic

24:57

power enabling it to inflict

25:00

greater social harm. Mister

25:03

Pomerantz, you 'cried that consideration

25:05

of using reco charges, essentially

25:07

against Trump. But then you say,

25:10

quote, the task of building out the proof

25:12

on the whole pattern of enterprise corruption

25:14

was simply too ambitious for the

25:16

human and investigative bandwidth we had.

25:19

In other words, you think you have the

25:21

substance of a case there But it

25:23

was basically too hard to do given the

25:26

resources of the DA's

25:27

office. Is that fair? It is fair.

25:29

One of the things that people need to remember

25:32

is that the district attorney

25:34

for New York County is a local prosecutor's

25:37

office. This is not the kind

25:39

of special counsel operation housed

25:42

in the Department of Justice, which

25:45

hires and has

25:48

a staff of dozens of lawyers and

25:50

investigators working on

25:52

a single mission. We

25:54

had a small staff of lawyers, many of

25:56

them with other responsibilities. We

25:59

had to work within the jurisdictional and

26:01

procedural limitations imposed by

26:03

New York law which are substantial, as

26:06

if for instance, if we wanna speak

26:08

as we did to a witness who

26:10

lives in Ohio, In a federal

26:12

case, FBI agents go service

26:15

subpoena and there's nationwide service a process.

26:17

If we want to speak to a witness who lives in

26:19

Ohio, we have to go through an elaborate

26:21

legal procedure involving the Ohio

26:24

authorities to see if that person

26:26

can be compelled to speak to us. So

26:28

for a whole variety of reasons having to do

26:30

with the substantive law of New York, the

26:32

procedural law of New York, the resources

26:35

that we had it

26:37

became clear over time that

26:40

an enterprise corruption case was

26:42

simply biting off more than we could

26:44

chew. There came a point when

26:47

both 'cried Dunn and I spoke

26:49

with Xivance District Attorney about

26:52

enlarging the team and adding

26:54

resources to it and giving us more

26:56

bandwidth. But again, we were coming

26:58

up on the end of Xivance's term.

27:01

We wanted to hire some senior people

27:04

with the extensive experience.

27:06

We didn't think it was fair to the incoming

27:09

district attorney to start hiring

27:11

senior people at the very

27:13

end of Xivance's term. And

27:16

in any event, we

27:18

ultimately decided that largely

27:21

for practical reasons, an

27:23

enterprise corruption case was simply

27:26

more than we could accomplish within

27:28

a reasonable time. Bearing in mind

27:31

that we were trying to work quickly

27:33

-- Mhmm. --

27:35

and bringing a racketeering case

27:38

particularly one that incorporates

27:41

other stuff, Trump Foundation,

27:44

Trump University, the hush money,

27:46

the financial statements, it's such a

27:48

big ball of wax that

27:51

ultimately we decided. You know what, let's

27:53

focus on a smaller more

27:55

contained set of charges. And that's

27:57

when we started to focus on

27:59

the financial

28:00

statements. Howard Bauchner: In doing

28:02

some additional reporting, preparing to talk

28:04

to you tonight, we were

28:06

able to learn from sources that the

28:08

team working right now at the New York DA's

28:10

office is about twenty. It's about

28:12

twenty lawyers and investigators at the DA's

28:14

office. And we don't know again what they are bringing before

28:17

the grand jury, and we don't know if any charges

28:19

will arise or what they will be. But

28:22

also struck by your complementary

28:26

words about the New York attorney general's office

28:28

and the investigation that was led

28:30

by Tisch James there. And

28:32

that quarter billion dollar civil suit

28:34

on the basis of Trump's financial statements

28:37

that you described earlier. Now,

28:40

one thing that happened when Tish James

28:42

revealed the factual basis for

28:44

that civil suit is that she referred it to

28:46

SDNY. She referred it back to federal

28:48

prosecutors. Is that SDNY suggesting that there's

28:50

federal prosecution to be done there along

28:52

given that fact pattern. We

28:54

have seen through public reporting and public

28:56

revelations how much or main justice

28:59

put on SDNY to let Trump off the

29:01

hook, particularly on the hush

29:03

money issue while Trump was president.

29:05

Now he's no longer

29:06

president. Do you believe that STNY

29:08

will ever do anything with this? I

29:10

haven't seen any reporting to

29:13

indicate that there's an active investigation.

29:16

As I mentioned in the book, this

29:18

was a case that cried out for federal

29:20

investigation for

29:23

all the reasons I talked about there and I've

29:25

alluded to here. I

29:27

don't know why there was never

29:29

an intensive federal investigation of

29:32

Donald Trump's finances. When

29:34

the New York Times did their big expose

29:37

in October of two thousand twenty

29:39

of Trump's tax returns. I recall

29:41

reading that and thinking to myself, well,

29:44

this is gonna start the feds on

29:48

substantial investigation. Maybe

29:51

it did and we never found out about it.

29:54

But as I say, there's nothing to indicate

29:56

that that investigation happened. And

29:58

one of the enduring mysteries, which

30:01

I can't answer. Is why it didn't

30:03

happen. With respect to the

30:05

AG, I was

30:08

a little bit surprise, but gratified about

30:11

the extent of cooperation that we got.

30:14

The lawyers there had done a lot

30:16

of work. On the financial statements, and it's

30:18

reflected in the complaint that they filed.

30:21

And they were often ahead

30:23

of us in terms of their fact finding.

30:26

And they were willing to share what

30:28

they could legally without

30:31

any jealousy or turf battles

30:33

and it actually was

30:35

virtually unique in my experience to

30:38

see one law enforcement agency

30:41

cooperate as well with another

30:45

as happened between the AG's office

30:47

and the DA's office. I thought they deserved a lot

30:49

of credit today. That's Civil Case due to be in

30:51

trial by October of

30:53

this year, and as to whether or not there will be a criminal

30:56

trial along those that

30:58

fact pattern outlined in

31:00

that civil trial or any other remains

31:02

to be seen, but we know more about this investigation than

31:04

we've ever known before. Thanks to this

31:06

very, very controversial book.

31:09

Mark is the author of People

31:11

versus Donald Trump and Inside Account sir.

31:13

Good luck. And thank you. Thank you so much. Thank

31:15

you. Alright. Well, much more to get to here tonight.

31:17

Stay with us. In

31:23

twenty seventeen, May twenty seventeen,

31:25

an eighteen year old Neo Nazi

31:28

in Tampa, Florida, shot

31:30

and killed two of his three roommates.

31:32

When the police searched the apartment after

31:34

that double homicide, they ended

31:37

up also arresting to the shooter,

31:39

They ended up arresting a third roommate,

31:42

one who was not shot. Turns out

31:44

that third roommate had been stockpiling

31:46

a huge amount of homemade explosives in

31:49

their shared garage. In

31:52

a separate incident, a little more than year

31:54

earlier, March twenty sixteen, a

31:56

twenty eight year old woman was arrested

31:58

for robbing four different convenience

32:00

stores in Maryland while armed

32:02

with a machete. Well,

32:05

now get this. It all comes together. Turns

32:07

out the machete wheel dirt and the explosives

32:09

hoarder, then began a relationship,

32:12

while they were each serving time in separate

32:15

prisons. Now

32:17

today, those two individuals were arrested

32:19

again. Federal prosecutors alleged

32:21

that the two plotted to attack five electrical

32:24

power substations around Baltimore,

32:26

Maryland. Their plan was allegedly to

32:28

knock out a ring of five specific

32:30

electrical substations all in

32:33

one day because they thought that would cause skating

32:35

effect to, quote, completely destroy

32:38

the whole city, meaning presumably they

32:40

expected to knock Baltimore into

32:42

a pre electric light state of

32:44

being and one that couldn't easily be

32:46

repaired. Now, if that whole

32:49

plan of that whole idea to shoot up

32:51

electrical substations to

32:53

knock out the power semi permanently and cause

32:55

major chaos. If that plan is giving you

32:57

deja vu, you are not mistaken. There have

32:59

been at least nine attacks

33:02

on electric power substations, at

33:05

least nine attacks across three different

33:07

states just in the past three months.

33:10

Early last year, Pomerantz security issued

33:12

a bulletin warning that domestic

33:15

violent extremist have developed

33:17

credible specific plans to

33:19

attack electricity infrastructure since

33:21

at least twenty twenty. Now

33:24

in most of these attacks, suspects haven't

33:26

been identified, and that means motives can't

33:28

be identified either. But last

33:30

month, NPR affiliates in Oregon and

33:32

Washington obtained an FBI memo

33:35

showing that neo Nazi groups

33:37

were calling for attacks just like

33:39

this. The neo Nazis at

33:41

the FBI was tracking, quote, believe that an

33:43

attack on electrical infrastructure will contribute

33:46

to their ideological goal of causing

33:48

societal collapse. And a subsequent

33:51

race war in the United States. And

33:54

that's part of what makes these arrests

33:56

about this planned Baltimore attack today

33:58

significant. Because the former

34:00

explosives hoarder arrested today,

34:03

he's the founder of a neo Nazi group

34:06

called the Adam Waffin. And

34:08

the former Moshedi wielding robber

34:11

who was also arrested today. She

34:13

wrote with FBI believed to be a

34:15

ideological manifesto of sorts.

34:18

Which both references hitting electrical

34:20

substations to knockout power and

34:22

also her admiration for the UNIABOMR

34:25

and for Hitler. Joining

34:28

us now is Kathleen Belieu. She teaches history

34:30

at Northwestern University. She's the author of bring

34:32

the war home, the white power movement in

34:34

paramilitary America, which is really

34:36

the seminal text in this

34:38

field. Professor Balu, I really appreciate you being

34:40

here. Thanks for thanks for being here.

34:43

Thanks for having me. So I

34:45

set up the top of the show tonight that this appears

34:47

to be emerging as a favored

34:49

tactic of the white power movement and

34:51

the sort of neo Nazi affiliated white

34:54

supremacist movement in the United States. Is that

34:56

a fair generalization?

34:59

Yes. Although the electrical

35:01

part may be new, but infrastructure attacks

35:04

by this movement are not new. This

35:06

is a strategy that was pioneered by a group

35:08

called the order in nineteen eighty three

35:11

moving forward. And that

35:13

group is sort of the base of upper

35:15

well, the the tactical base for

35:17

Hoffman division, which translates

35:20

to the base. So infrastructure

35:23

attacks are one kind of violence. Among

35:26

several others that are all played

35:28

out in a strategy in

35:30

common in order to bring

35:33

about what the movement seats, which is the overthrow

35:35

of the United States, creation of a white

35:37

ethnostate, mass

35:39

violence against communities of color

35:41

and even genocide against non white peoples.

35:44

So infrastructure attacks sit

35:46

next to show a force

35:48

violence like the January sixth attack

35:50

on the capital, and mass casualty

35:53

violence like the Oklahoma City bombing.

35:55

All of these exist together within

35:57

one broad ideology in the white

35:59

power movement.

36:01

I've heard this described as accelerationist

36:04

tactic tactics, and I know that's an

36:06

awkward word. But I wonder

36:08

if you can sort of explain the thinking

36:10

there because I feel like there's little bit of a leap of

36:13

logic to it, which makes it not translate to

36:15

non expert sort of just news consumers

36:18

about this. I mean, the idea is that

36:20

you'd attack infrastructure you'd

36:22

cause people material pain, you'd cause

36:24

chaos and upset, and

36:26

then somehow there's a slippery slope that

36:29

results in race war and white people taking over.

36:31

And and genocide against non white people. Like,

36:33

why did they believe that infrastructure

36:36

attacks and resulting chaos ultimately

36:39

accelerate us to some

36:41

race war future where they think they're gonna win.

36:43

So

36:44

infrastructure attacks and

36:47

mass casualty violence and

36:49

show of power attacks are all meant to

36:51

do the same thing in the ideology of

36:53

this movement, which is laid out in books like Turner

36:55

Dairies and in movement,

36:57

ideological writings of other kinds.

37:00

They are all supposed to awaken

37:02

other people to what

37:05

these activists see as the

37:07

staggering state of emergency problems

37:10

that face white people. The

37:12

the woman arrested today in that piece of

37:14

writing apparently said or said to

37:16

an informant that she would do anything for

37:19

my people. This is the idea

37:21

of white people as her race and

37:23

as her nation. It reflects a sense

37:26

that white people are being distinguish and

37:28

will be apocalyptically vanished

37:31

if action is not taken. So

37:33

infrastructure attacks like taking out

37:35

the power supply in Baltimore, taking out

37:37

heat, taking out the ability of hospitals

37:39

to perform their operations. Right? If

37:41

you don't have hospital electricity,

37:44

You can't run the basics of of any of

37:46

our systems. These are meant to

37:48

make other white people awaken

37:52

to these injustices as perceived

37:54

by these activists so that everyone

37:56

will rise up a little bit

37:58

lit at a time against the broader

38:01

what they will call the

38:01

system, which is the United States government.

38:03

Absolute insanity

38:06

and holding force on a significant sliver

38:10

of the white power movement that you're describing, as he

38:12

said, for at least the last forty

38:15

years. Kathleen Belieu, associate professor of

38:17

history at Northwestern author

38:19

of the seminal text to bring the war home,

38:21

the white power movement in paramilitary America,

38:24

Professor

38:24

Balu. Thank you so much for your time tonight.

38:27

Thanks for having me. I'll be right back. Stay with

38:29

us. I

38:33

have an update for you on a story we covered couple

38:35

of weeks ago about an actual

38:37

member of congress who was definitely also

38:39

an man of mystery. His

38:41

name is Republican congressman George Santos

38:44

and his every utterance. About

38:46

his resume and record is now being scrutinized

38:48

because almost everything he's ever said about

38:50

himself is turning out to be a big

38:52

porky pie, which is rhyming

38:54

fling for the man

38:57

he lives. So you might

38:59

remember last month, a couple weeks ago.

39:01

We got this video of an interview, congressman

39:03

Santos did with a Brazilian podcast. Called

39:06

Radio Novelo Apreza. And

39:08

in this podcast interview, the congressman said

39:11

that he had been mugged in the middle

39:13

of fifth Avenue in New York city in broad

39:16

daylight and he said the mugger ran

39:18

off among other things with his

39:20

shoes leaving him standing

39:23

there in the middle of Fifth Avenue in his socks.

39:26

He also said somebody had then tried to kill him.

39:28

Because of that, he said an NYPD police

39:30

escort had to stanguard at his home

39:32

because he had been the victim of an attempted

39:34

murder. And you

39:36

know who am I to say? Maybe. But

39:39

think about it. If you were mugged, in

39:41

the middle of Fifth Avenue. If somebody tried to kill

39:43

you, you would probably call the police.

39:46

Right? I mean, you

39:48

must OF CALLED THE POLICE IF THE RESULT WAS THAT POLICE

39:50

OFFICER GOT STACED OUTSIDE YOUR HOME THAT

39:52

DOESN'T JUST HAPPEN. AFTER

39:55

WE found that interview in those statements by congressman

39:57

Santos, we checked to see if he had ever filed

40:00

a police report about his alleged dramatic

40:02

Fifth Avenue mugging or about being the victim

40:04

of an attempted murder. Well, now I can

40:06

tell you here is what we have found out.

40:09

This information was obtained by our colleagues

40:11

at CNBC, it's being reported here

40:13

exclusively. 'cried to

40:15

law enforcement sources, there is

40:18

no known record filed

40:20

with the New York City Police Department in the last

40:22

three years showing that George

40:24

Santos claimed to be the victim of a robbery

40:26

on Fifth Avenue. Sam goes for

40:29

Anthony DeVolder, which is another

40:31

name George Santos has used in the past,

40:33

No police report on file for either of those

40:35

names reporting a robbery of shoes

40:37

or anything else in New York City.

40:40

Nor is there any OF GEORGE SANTOS ALERTING

40:42

THE NYPD TO AN ATTEMPTED MURDER

40:46

AGAINST HIM. Adrienne: ACCORDING

40:48

TO THE SAME LAW ENFORCEMENT SOURCES, THERE IS JUST

40:50

one police report on record that mentions

40:53

George Santos. It concerns an incident

40:55

in twenty twenty one where mister Santos's

40:57

neighbor allegedly threw some garbage

40:59

at him. And while nobody likes to

41:01

have garbage thrown at them, in this case, I'm happy to

41:03

say mister Santos reported that his neighbor missed.

41:06

So one failed attempt by

41:09

his neighbor to throw garbage at him once.

41:11

Yes. There was a police report about that.

41:14

Nothing about an attempted murder. Nothing

41:16

about a mugging. Specific

41:18

to his shoes or not. Our

41:20

law enforcement sources checked their full log of

41:22

police reports and complaints between January twenty

41:24

nineteen up to the end of last month

41:27

THEY TELL US TO THE BEST OF THEIR KNOWLEGE ASIDE

41:29

FROM THAT ONE COMPLAIN ABOUT THE NEIGHBOUR

41:31

LABING TRAASH IN HIS GENERAL DIRECTION

41:33

BUT NOT RIGHT AT HIM. George

41:35

Santos, apart from that, George Santos, apart from that

41:37

had not filed a single police report or complaint

41:39

to the NYPD in any of

41:41

it the last three years. Now

41:44

we reached out to congressman Santos's office to

41:46

ask him about all this. His office

41:48

told us that this isn't a congressional issue,

41:50

and so we should therefore ask his lawyer.

41:53

We did. His lawyer told us, no

41:55

comment. And

41:59

look, Who knows? Maybe

42:01

Republican congressman George Santos decided

42:03

to deal with that mugging in Manhattan on his

42:05

own. Maybe he summoned

42:07

to that police escort with his

42:09

mind, but

42:12

we checked it out and doesn't

42:14

seem to have gone down the way you might have expected.

42:17

I'LL BE RIGHT BACK. Adrienne: JUST

42:22

A QUICK REMINDER THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN DELIVERS HIS

42:24

STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS TOMORROW. OUR SPEAKER coverage

42:27

starts at eight PM eastern. I'll

42:30

be there as part of that along with my colleagues,

42:32

Joy Reed and Nicole Wallace and the great Lawrence

42:34

O'Donnell and many of our other beloved

42:36

colleagues. Again, state of the Union address,

42:39

tomorrow night, we'll see you here at eight

42:41

PM eastern right here on MSNBC.

42:44

That's gonna do it for us for now.