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EP 103 Julian Fisher Former British Spy: 'How to Think Like A Spy'

EP 103 Julian Fisher Former British Spy: 'How to Think Like A Spy'

Released Wednesday, 11th December 2024
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EP 103 Julian Fisher Former British Spy: 'How to Think Like A Spy'

EP 103 Julian Fisher Former British Spy: 'How to Think Like A Spy'

EP 103 Julian Fisher Former British Spy: 'How to Think Like A Spy'

EP 103 Julian Fisher Former British Spy: 'How to Think Like A Spy'

Wednesday, 11th December 2024
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circle every Thursday. We

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love Thursdays. Hi,

0:43

this is Yolanda Welcome. Welcome to

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Thank you for your company. Well,

1:22

when you find one, what's that

1:24

phrase about buses? When you

1:26

want one, you can never find one, but then

1:28

all of a sudden three come along at once. We, we

1:31

have another ex

1:33

British spy here on

1:36

the security circle podcast, and

1:38

he's here because he's written a

1:40

great book. Julian Fisher,

1:42

welcome to the security circle podcast.

1:44

How are you doing?

1:45

I'm good, thanks Yolanda, fantastic to be

1:48

here, lovely to join your lineup of stellar

1:50

speakers, even if I am

1:52

the third in the queue.

1:54

I don't know,, if we go back to the buses

1:56

analogy, but look, I don't

1:58

know that I would necessarily have,

2:01

found you on LinkedIn, but that's

2:03

the power of network, right? Yeah, absolutely

2:06

right.

2:07

Although I, I emphasize targeting over networking,

2:10

but we can perhaps talk about that as we go on.

2:13

Listen, one of the things I really love about

2:15

your book, it's like a kit. I've

2:18

noticed. It's like a kit

2:20

that you can take with you and all of a sudden

2:22

you do these recaps. You provide

2:24

these little tips and advice. It's not just

2:27

reading. It's a kit book, isn't it?

2:29

I want it to be a manual., it's

2:32

trying to do a lot of things at the same time.

2:34

There's the autobiographical elements,

2:36

there's a little bit of investigation of how

2:39

spies work to the extent that I can do that

2:41

without transgressing relevant

2:43

laws. there's also the,

2:46

as you say, the kit of, Skills

2:49

that anybody can use to improve their

2:51

personal and professional lives. So yeah, it's quite,

2:53

it's trying to do quite a lot at the same time. I quite like,

2:56

what Charlie Cumming, the, novelist

2:58

and friend of mine wrote about it.

3:00

he was kind enough to say that if I were a young graduate

3:03

looking to gain an advantage in the workplace,

3:05

this is the first book I returned to.

3:08

And he calls it part memoir, part tutorial.

3:10

I think that pretty much sums it up.

3:13

Yeah, I think I didn't do it justice by saying

3:15

kit book, tutorial, fantastic

3:17

analogy. And I like what he said. And

3:19

I get that. And I think, crikey,

3:22

I would have loved to have read this 10 years

3:24

ago.

3:25

I'm so surprised at how many people say

3:27

that to me, Yolanda. And it's really,

3:29

it's gratifying, in fact, because I'm a great believer

3:32

in social mobility, improving

3:34

social mobility. I think we have a problem with that in

3:36

this country. And if even

3:39

a handful of, you know, Younger people

3:42

learn to better improve

3:44

their prospects in the workplace

3:46

through reading my book, then I'm very happy

3:49

that that to me counts as success.

3:51

Tell me why I have to pick up on that.

3:53

Why do we have a social mobility problem

3:56

in this country or even in the Western world?

4:00

I mean, these, these things have deep

4:03

historical roots, but I think part of the problem

4:05

we have in the UK is the prevalence

4:07

of the public

4:09

school system. What, uh, American

4:12

listeners would understand to be private schools and

4:14

the fee paying schools. There's

4:17

a, A fantastic club, which has been

4:19

set up, by inspiring

4:22

a woman called Sophie Pender, and it's the 93

4:24

percent club. And what she points out is

4:27

that 93 percent of people

4:29

in, in this country, the

4:31

UK go to non fee paying

4:33

schools, but a preponderance

4:35

of the most senior positions, whether it's in the

4:37

judiciary, in the military,

4:40

in business, in politics

4:43

are drawn from the

4:45

7 percent who went to the fee paying schools.

4:48

And that's a structural, it's

4:51

a structural deficit that I think will take

4:53

some time to address. I'm

4:56

not going to get into the politics of it, but

4:58

it needs to be done because there's a whole, there's

5:00

a wellspring of talent out there,

5:03

which just isn't being tapped into. And I

5:05

think that's a shame for us as a country.

5:07

If you look at centuries, um,

5:10

and we won't go down this rabbit hole, but if you look at centuries,

5:13

elitism seems to have been a theme

5:15

in every single century, the

5:17

elitism of wealth, power, money,

5:20

and privilege. And that's

5:22

woven its way through, hasn't it? Even to

5:24

our society today, I noticed

5:26

it seems to be something, you

5:28

know, we don't seem to as a human race be able

5:31

to be really, equality

5:33

focused.

5:35

No, we're getting better, but.

5:39

Inequalities take time to break down because

5:42

there are so many vested interests, aren't there? I mean, that's, that's

5:44

the way that inequality works. And

5:47

I'm not a believer in top

5:50

down solutions to a really

5:52

big degree. I mean, I think that it's important that

5:54

we have the right political setting to ease

5:56

some of those inequalities. But

5:58

I also think we as individuals,

6:01

including younger people, have a lot more at their

6:03

disposal. Disposal to address

6:06

the problems that they might face through lack of social

6:08

capital, for instance, and that's

6:10

what this book is all about. And

6:12

so I, I believe there's a lot of

6:15

truth in that old saying that it's not what,

6:17

you know it's who, you know, of course, I would urge

6:20

everybody to educate themselves to the

6:22

highest degree possible. It

6:24

is true that it's important to, you know

6:27

and if you're born to a particular background,

6:29

you know, You don't have access

6:31

to that network of people who represent

6:33

social capital, who are able to make the introductions

6:36

that ease your path in life. You

6:40

can control both of those elements.

6:42

You can control what you know through pursuing

6:45

education and you

6:47

can control who you know. And

6:49

my book at its heart is about

6:51

how to take control of building

6:54

that network of goals, allies, building

6:57

the group of people around you. In

7:01

a perfectly reasonable and ethical

7:03

way, seek to help

7:05

you attain your goals.

7:08

That's profound because, and

7:10

it will be well received because a lot of the listeners

7:13

to the Security Circle podcast,

7:15

they listen because they learn and

7:18

there are so many people within the

7:20

security community, very broad

7:22

community they're just learning

7:25

kind. They want to learn.

7:27

Listen, but you've given me a great segue to the book.

7:30

The book is called Think Like a Spy,

7:33

and I can see why you've called it that, Julian.

7:37

Publishers have a lot

7:38

to do with titles.

7:40

I know. In fact, I understand that

7:42

the publisher determines the name of

7:44

the book, even though authors quite

7:47

often say, this is the name of my book. And the publisher

7:49

will go, nope, it's not.

7:51

I've, I've heard similar stories and actual fact, this was

7:53

purely collaborative. So the publishers,

7:56

I suggested the name in the first place,

7:59

wavered about it. They

8:01

liked it. They think it's, it's, it

8:03

does what it says on the cover.

8:05

And it's described here by Charles Cumming,

8:08

who you mentioned earlier, who is the best

8:10

author of, uh, Box 88.

8:13

What's Box 88? I've not heard of that.

8:16

You'd have to read the book.

8:20

So Charles describes your book as,

8:23

as close as readers are likely

8:25

to get to the secrets of intelligence

8:28

recruitment, a fascinating and

8:30

instructive guide. The book is

8:32

described as master the art of

8:34

influence and build life changing

8:37

alliances. And I want to give everybody,

8:39

thank you for your inscription, by the way. Love

8:41

getting those.

8:42

Oh, you're very welcome.

8:44

I love your introduction and I remember when

8:46

I sat down, opened the pages and

8:48

had a cup of coffee and I started

8:50

to read, I'm going to read the introduction because I think it sets

8:53

the scene nicely. Okay.

8:56

A spy does something extraordinary.

8:59

She travels abroad, often undercover to hostile

9:01

territories. Once in country,

9:03

she engages with senior political, military,

9:06

and legal personnel. Some of

9:08

them, she peels off from their professional settings

9:11

and draws them into close, personal

9:13

friendships. Over time, she

9:16

focuses on the most promising of these relationships

9:18

and deepens them, strengthening the bonds

9:21

of mutual trust and understanding. Then,

9:24

after careful assessment and

9:26

with exquisite timing, she

9:28

strikes. I was like, oh

9:30

god, this is brilliant. Lastly, when

9:33

the right day comes, she sits down

9:35

with one of her new friends somewhere

9:37

quiet and unobtrusive and

9:39

relaxing. A plush hotel

9:41

restaurant, perhaps, or a park bench

9:44

on a balmy summer's evening. She

9:46

pours him a glass of wine, soothes

9:48

any nerves he may have, and

9:50

settles him into an easy rhythm of

9:53

attentive conversation. She

9:55

reads his body language and listens

9:57

intently to his words, her

9:59

emotional antennae attuned

10:02

only to him. Her sense of time,

10:04

place, and occasion heightened, but

10:07

her posture relaxed and her

10:09

facial features open. And

10:11

as the evening mellows and the

10:13

edges of the day begin to soften,

10:16

she asks him to do something

10:18

for her. She asks him

10:20

to betray his country. Oh, love

10:23

it. It

10:25

sums it up, doesn't it? You

10:28

know, I think that's the first time I've heard that read

10:30

back to me. And

10:33

it still sends a tingle down my spine

10:35

when I think about it. And

10:37

I'm sure many of your listeners

10:39

We'll be, we'll have had

10:41

a similar experience when you first, when

10:44

you're first introduced to the idea of

10:47

what an intelligent officer is expected to

10:49

do. I

10:51

think it's a life changing moment in some ways.

10:53

It's a moment when cognitive

10:58

dissonance creeps in at first,

11:01

because you think how on earth

11:04

does anybody persuade another

11:06

person to betray their country?

11:08

I'm sitting here thinking, could I

11:10

betray my country? I mean

11:12

it annoys the hell out of me sometimes. You

11:15

see these clips and these soundbites everywhere and people

11:17

saying, if they had the choice to live abroad, would they, and most

11:20

people say yes, because the weather here is a bit naff

11:22

on the naff scale.

11:23

Yeah, especially today.

11:25

But when you go abroad, I find

11:27

when I go abroad, my patriotism

11:29

increases. My, my

11:32

belonging meant to my country.

11:35

is very strong when I'm abroad.

11:37

yet I can be abroad and not like

11:39

the British very much. So I feel

11:41

a little bit conflicted, but

11:43

would I betray my country? And I'm wondering

11:45

if people hearing that would be thinking, well,

11:48

cripes, would I betray my country?

11:51

I mean, that would be a British man saying that, but American

11:53

would be like, yee haw, would I betray

11:55

my country? Y'all. I think

11:57

that's, what's very poignant about that introduction.

12:00

And I guess really that's what a spy is looking

12:02

for.

12:04

Indeed. Let

12:06

me reflect on that by talking about

12:08

a conversation I had with my producer

12:11

when I made the Channel 4 TV

12:13

series, released back in 2017

12:15

called Spies, where

12:17

I was one of the lead trainers and we took

12:19

16 people and put them through a series

12:22

of exercises to find out if they had what

12:24

it takes to be a spy. I was part of

12:26

the whole process of designing that

12:28

series, as well as. Fronting it

12:31

a lot of very interesting conversations

12:33

with the producers. And at one point we

12:36

were talking about the same thing, who, why

12:39

would somebody choose

12:41

to betray their country? Would you choose to betray

12:43

your country? And it's moved

12:46

into the question of what patriotism

12:49

means. And

12:51

my producer said, do you buy

12:54

into Queen and country? This was before the

12:56

Queen's death, obviously, and

12:58

my response was, I don't, and cars

13:01

on the table. I'm a Republican. And I think

13:04

that's, I'm afraid that fits with

13:06

my, the problem I have with the inequalities

13:10

we have in this country. I actually think it stems

13:12

from the fact that we have a monarchy. But

13:14

that's a slight, that's a different conversation.

13:17

It's not though. I think I've always

13:20

supported the Queen and Country,

13:22

King and Country. But recently,

13:25

if we were to do a poll on where

13:27

I stand, after the

13:29

news came out about how much

13:31

money they're taking from people using

13:34

their land, I started to think,

13:36

Oh, this could be a deal breaker for me. This,

13:38

if nothing else has I

13:40

don't like the way they've, dealt with, Megan and

13:43

Harry. I think that's appalling. They should never have allowed

13:45

that to happen. But I also think,

13:47

well, if I was to do a poll right now on,

13:49

on the socialization of that news,

13:52

I think, what's the word I'm

13:54

looking for? The consensus for me would be an

13:56

all time low in favor of the royal family. And

13:58

that's significant. I've always been a fan. Have

14:00

you seen that change?

14:02

I do always make one observation when, people

14:04

are often surprised to discover that I'm a Republican.

14:07

And they asked me why. And I say, well,

14:09

consider this, but for a very

14:12

minor quirk of fate, we may today

14:14

have King Andrew and

14:17

you would have no say

14:19

in whether or not that man. Was

14:22

allowed to reign over you, allowed to present

14:24

himself as the person

14:28

to whom you have to say

14:30

you are his citizen, his

14:33

subject, sorry, to

14:36

me, it's mind blowing. And I think stemming

14:39

from that comes every element

14:42

of. inequality in

14:44

Britain today. I genuinely believe that. That's a

14:46

profound political statement to make. And I know it

14:48

won't go down terribly well with

14:51

the number of your listeners, but I'm not in the business

14:53

of pretending to be something I'm

14:55

not, but that doesn't

14:57

stop me being a patriot.

15:00

And, So when I

15:02

was asked by my producer, okay, what is it then,

15:05

if you don't buy into Queen and Country, what

15:07

is it that makes you a

15:09

proud Brit, if you like? I said, well,

15:12

yeah, when I was 12, I was, I

15:14

walked in front of a car. I write better than

15:16

a book. I spent nigh on

15:18

a year. In hospital where

15:21

I was rebuilt by the NHS

15:25

and following

15:28

that I was able coming

15:30

from the poorest postcode in the United

15:32

Kingdom, I was able to go on to a

15:34

world class education in Oxford

15:36

University and

15:38

that's what makes me proud to be British because

15:41

we're a country that no matter

15:44

your class, creed, background, whether you're

15:46

a visitor to the country, whether you're a long

15:48

time resident, whether you were born here, if

15:50

you're smashed up in a car accident, You

15:53

will be picked up, you will be taken and you

15:55

will get world class care. And I think that's an amazing

15:57

thing. I think it's particularly British, in fact,

16:01

the country also gives opportunities to kids

16:04

like me from backgrounds, which weren't terribly

16:06

promising. There were great elements to my

16:08

background. Don't get me wrong, but it

16:10

wasn't terribly promising, but I was able to go on

16:13

and study at one of the premier

16:16

educational institutions in the world. And

16:18

I think that's worth being patriotic about.

16:20

Yes. I think you make an incredibly

16:22

good case, but like me, when I

16:24

joined the police, I would have sworn allegiance to the Queen

16:27

and country. You would have done the same.

16:29

I was a Crown servant. Yeah, absolutely.

16:31

I was also proud of that, David Blunkett

16:34

was my, Home Secretary,

16:36

but I was always very proud that we saw our allegiance to

16:38

the Queen, but then I did as a Brownie. As

16:40

well, when I was like seven,

16:42

this is a really complicated subject, isn't

16:44

it? And I had huge

16:46

affection for Queen Elizabeth. I

16:48

think she did us as a country proud.

16:50

And if you think about the amount of time she was on

16:52

the throne and the stability, she

16:55

represented during some quite chaotic

16:59

times. I have nothing but

17:01

respect for her. I don't have respect

17:03

for the institution.

17:04

One of the things I love that you've done in the

17:06

book is that you've talked about the You,

17:08

you've got a chapter here called a note on terminology,

17:11

and I think it's really important that you've done this

17:14

because you've said, and

17:16

you've premised this with the phrase spy

17:18

is an imprecise term because

17:22

there are, like you say, even more

17:24

murky intelligence officers that have

17:26

a variety of functions. Some are engaged

17:28

in intercepting messages sent

17:30

by electronic means, signals

17:33

intelligence or SIGINT.

17:36

Others might spend. Others

17:38

might spend their time analyzing

17:40

publicly available information to

17:42

spot patterns or provide leads for

17:45

other types of operations. You've

17:47

got obviously. OSINT, open

17:49

source intelligence, yet others

17:52

pour over photographs taken for military

17:54

aircraft or drones and you've got image

17:56

intelligence, IMINT. But

17:58

the category of interest for present

18:00

purposes is human intelligent. Do

18:03

you call it human or intelligent? Or hamint.

18:05

It

18:05

is, humint. Hamint

18:07

might run the risk of getting mixed up with a

18:10

Greek snack food.

18:13

Yes, so hamint, following

18:15

the, for the general folk, the Ossint precipice,

18:18

principle. This involves at the

18:20

operational sharp end, the type of

18:22

operation that you outlined in

18:24

the introduction, identification, cultivation,

18:27

and recruitment of human sources of

18:29

intelligence. Let's talk also

18:32

about why it's important to profile

18:34

someone's personality in that element

18:36

of human source intelligence.

18:38

So that comes under what I, turn

18:40

targeting and it's, it's one of

18:42

the preparatory stages. I divide the

18:44

book as you know, into three sections, getting

18:46

ready, getting together and

18:49

staying together, getting ready. That

18:51

first section is operational groundwork

18:54

and within that, one of the important part,

18:56

one of the most important skill

18:58

sets to develop is targeting. And

19:01

the reason for that is go

19:05

back to the story that

19:07

you read out about the

19:09

spy sitting down with her target and inviting

19:12

him to betray his country.

19:15

Now that may well be happening in a hostile

19:17

third country. Where if it

19:19

goes wrong, the

19:22

spy, the person making the invitation could well

19:24

end up in a very uncomfortable situation,

19:27

potentially imprisoned, certainly thrown out in

19:29

disgrace. It's

19:32

absolutely vital before

19:35

you get to the stage of recruitment, that

19:38

you have not

19:40

a racing certainty, but

19:43

certainly a strong balance of probabilities that the

19:45

answer is going to be yes. And

19:48

part of the way you get to that is by

19:50

effective profiling, effective targeting.

19:52

And you're looking for three things,

19:54

really, you're looking for somebody who's got access

19:58

to the information of interest, the intelligence

20:00

that you want. You're looking for somebody

20:02

who's got motivation. To

20:05

give you that information, and we can talk

20:07

about what motivations apply in

20:09

different circumstances. And you're

20:11

also vitally looking for suitability. You're

20:13

looking for somebody who is not

20:15

going to, be

20:17

indiscreet about their new relationship.

20:19

You're not looking for somebody who's going to take

20:21

unnecessary risks. So all of

20:23

that requires quite careful profiling,

20:27

quite careful targeting. So

20:31

I think a lot of human intelligence operatives

20:33

are in some ways, Not

20:36

academically trained, but they

20:38

are psychology

20:42

practitioners. You have to learn

20:44

to become readers of people

20:48

and to look for the clues in how people

20:50

present themselves and what people say that

20:52

might be missed by others, because

20:55

if you get it wrong, the

20:57

stakes are enormously high.

20:59

So the incentive to get it right is

21:02

incredibly strong.

21:03

Talking about that, does that mean that

21:06

spies don't have the same, heartbeat

21:09

as everybody else? Because surely

21:11

they have this ability to remain cool and calm

21:14

and collected in quite stressful situations.

21:16

Are they a different type of human being?

21:20

I don't believe so, in fact,

21:23

all personality types are on a spectrum

21:25

and there will be certain

21:28

types of personality that are perhaps

21:30

more suited for the profession

21:33

than others. But the whole premise

21:35

of my book is that everybody has what

21:37

it takes. it's really, we all use

21:39

the set of skills that I talk about throughout

21:43

the three sections, whether

21:45

or not we realize that we're doing it, we use

21:48

them every day. Our

21:50

interpersonal relationships depend

21:52

upon the ability to use this suite of

21:54

skills, but

21:56

what we don't necessarily do is use

21:59

them as intent. The difference between

22:02

a trained spy, if you like, and

22:05

a civilian is

22:07

simply that, really. It's

22:10

learning to use a set of skills, which is

22:12

available to all of us, in an

22:15

intentful and purposeful manner with a specific end

22:17

in mind. I wrote this

22:19

book because I realized over

22:21

the years, I'd been doing that

22:25

in my day to day life without

22:27

realizing, It wouldn't have occurred

22:29

to me to think that I was using spy skills,

22:32

say, when I was cultivating

22:35

Winston Churchill, the grandson, to

22:37

be one of my referees

22:40

on my CV. But actually,

22:43

I had been targeting, cultivating, and recruiting

22:45

him. And a lot of us do this,

22:48

a similar thing, all the

22:50

time, every day. We just don't realize

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for all enforcement security. And

24:02

look, Smith requirements.

24:16

it. You talk in your book about how Churchill

24:18

got you your first job. Yes.

24:20

That's what you're referring to, isn't it? It

24:22

is. I'll tell you. I'll just

24:25

very briefly tell the story. So

24:26

listeners love stories. Go for it.

24:28

Indeed. So. Coming

24:31

from a background in

24:34

inner city Birmingham, without necessarily

24:36

the contacts that were going to get me jobs

24:39

in the more elite institutions,

24:42

I had to do a lot of heavy lifting myself

24:44

by making sure I had the right allies on my side.

24:46

And during

24:48

my gap year, I'd hoped that

24:50

I would be spending it in Africa,

24:53

working for an organization called Project Trust,

24:55

but it turned out that, they

24:57

required you to raised quite a lot of money.

25:01

I quickly realized that money was

25:03

usually raised through the simple expedient of

25:05

going to the bank of mom and dad. And I didn't have

25:07

that option. So I had

25:09

to abandon that dream. And I ended up peculiarly

25:12

working on the European parliamentary

25:14

elections in 1989, which gives

25:16

you an idea of how old I am.

25:17

You're working it well.

25:20

From Indeed. Thank you.

25:22

That's very kind of you. Spying,

25:24

keeps you young. The,

25:28

during, I, I ended up

25:30

working in, in a marginal conservative party

25:32

constituency called Midlands West for a

25:34

incredible chap called Mike Whitby,

25:36

our law Whitby and. It

25:39

was probably the most marginal seat in the country.

25:41

And as such, the

25:43

conservative party headquarters threw everything

25:45

at it. And we had everybody visit. So I met

25:47

Margaret Thatcher, Norman Tebbitt,

25:50

and I think Cecil Parkinson,

25:52

and the luminaries

25:54

of the day, which to my young

25:57

impressionable minds, made

25:59

quite a big difference. What I decided to do as

26:01

these. Figures were coming

26:03

through. The constituency was on

26:06

every occasion. I would ask them if they needed a parliamentary

26:08

research or need, or knew of anybody who needed

26:10

a parliamentary researcher. And eventually,

26:13

I, struck, lucky, and ended

26:15

up working for an mp. I won't

26:17

name that MP 'cause it would be unfair.

26:19

I figured that if I really

26:22

wanted to have powerful impact on my cv,

26:24

I needed to have another, more

26:26

high profile MP as a

26:29

referee. So,

26:32

I set about a targeting exercise.

26:34

I went to the library at the House of Commons

26:36

and I sat down with a list of MPs and worked

26:38

out who had the highest profile and

26:42

who didn't have a full

26:44

quota of researchers or speech writers

26:46

or staff. And

26:48

one name jumped out to me and that name was Winston

26:50

Churchill, which for a moment

26:53

threw me because I thought he was dead.

26:56

And indeed he was, but he'd, he had,

26:58

had a grandchild

27:00

also called Winston and Winston was an

27:02

MP. So I set about

27:05

getting to know Winston and, you know, having a parliamentary

27:07

past, I worked out where

27:09

his office was and outside

27:12

of his office, there was a, one of those old

27:14

Reuters ticker tape machines that

27:16

would basically spool out greener. White

27:19

striped paper with the headlines of the day, you

27:21

know, this is long before digitization. I

27:24

got a rough idea of when Winston

27:27

was likely to be arriving or leaving his

27:29

office. And so I would make sure that

27:31

on those, at those times I was outside

27:33

examining the headlines coming through

27:35

on this Reuters machine. And

27:38

I also took it upon myself to work

27:40

out what his areas of interest were. So what parliamentary

27:43

committees did he sit on and, you know, what

27:45

were his. Declared member's interests.

27:48

And every time I saw a subject come through

27:50

on the Reuters machine, and he was in

27:53

my vicinity, I would engage him in conversation

27:55

about it. And that way we struck

27:57

up a friendship. And eventually I said to him, do

27:59

you have need of a researcher? And he said, well

28:01

no, I don't, but I do have need of a speechwriter.

28:04

So suddenly I was a brilliant speechwriter

28:06

and I presented myself to him as, the answer

28:08

to his prayers. And

28:10

indeed, he took me on as a speechwriter. There

28:13

are somewhere in old Hansard

28:15

some fairly exorable speeches that I wrote

28:17

for him. I have to admit that looking back, but

28:20

it did the trick. And having

28:23

worked with him for a while and he was a really lovely

28:25

chap. He was very, very supportive of me.

28:28

And I asked him if I could put his name down as

28:30

a reference. When I went for my.

28:32

first graduate jobs. I ended

28:34

up with him and the Lord Mayor of Birmingham, a chaplain

28:37

called Peter Barwell. Sadly,

28:39

neither of those two gentlemen are still with us, but they

28:41

were most, both incredibly supportive

28:45

and I think made all the difference

28:47

as I put my CV around. And

28:49

I've ended up being interviewed for

28:51

a job at a firm called Casanova,

28:53

which at the time was the last remaining

28:56

independent stockbrokers in the city of

28:58

London, a partnership. People

29:01

mainly The types we were talking

29:03

about earlier, the graduates

29:05

of the 7 percent of fee paying schools,

29:08

and they were of a particular type and suffice to say,

29:11

I was something of a square peg

29:14

in a round hole, but I got a job there

29:16

and I actually enjoyed working there a great

29:18

deal. I got to know

29:20

a lot of people. And one

29:22

day, many of whom remain

29:24

friends to this day, but one day I sat with

29:26

my boss, John,, fantastic

29:28

first employer, brilliant mentor.

29:31

And a man with a reasonable sense of humor, I

29:33

hope because I said to him,

29:35

okay, so why did you choose to offer

29:37

me the job? And he said, well, I had to, didn't I? Because

29:40

I really wanted to phone the house of commons

29:42

and ask to speak to Winston Churchill.

29:44

I think

29:47

he was joking,

29:48

but

29:48

if he wasn't, then that's fine too,

29:50

because it proves my point that

29:53

in targeting a particular person,

29:55

profiling a particular person, cultivating

29:57

them, getting to know them and providing

30:00

them with support as well, because that wasn't a

30:02

one way street. I worked for Winston, Gratis,

30:06

as I recall, and he needed

30:08

my assistance. It may not have

30:10

been the greatest speechwriter,

30:12

but it was. So what I was giving

30:14

him something, he gave me something in return. And that's

30:17

what I think lies at the very heart of

30:19

the best alliances. And that's also what

30:21

I think lies at the heart of the very best agent

30:23

recruitments. It's a partnership rather than

30:26

an exploitation.

30:28

Yeah. I think a lot of our relationships

30:30

are transactional and I think we should accept

30:32

that they're transactional. And I

30:34

think one of the things that I've learned recently

30:36

is when. Part of that relationship

30:39

stops being transactional. It kind of leaves

30:41

the other one in limbo a little bit. Um,

30:44

yeah, it's just reality, isn't it? I mean,

30:46

we can, we can

30:49

get ourselves worked up about the idea

30:51

of transactional relationships, but what's

30:53

wrong with that? The

30:56

simple act of living requires us to

30:58

be transactional to some degree. We've

31:00

created a whole thing, which

31:03

reflects the importance of transactional

31:05

relationships. And we call it money.

31:08

I don't think having transactional relationships is

31:10

bad. I think the biggest mistake

31:12

we can make is thinking we have true friendships

31:14

and we haven't. We have transactional

31:16

relationships the two

31:19

are not mutually exclusive. By any

31:21

means, and many many

31:23

relationships, partnerships that start out transactional develop

31:27

into very strong friendships, which transcends,

31:30

quickly transcend the transaction. But there are

31:33

all sorts of psychological studies

31:36

that suggest that actually the number

31:38

of true friends we can really manage

31:40

is quite small. Yeah.

31:43

You can count them on one hand, the fingers of one

31:45

hand.

31:46

So,

31:47

and in this day and age where, and the last

31:49

time I looked at the number of contacts I have

31:51

in my iPhone, it was something like 1,

31:54

500, you know, that's not 1, 500

31:57

friends.

31:58

No, it's associates, isn't

32:00

it?

32:00

Associates. And, but some of them will be very strong

32:03

transactional partnerships.

32:06

A very small number of them will be very close

32:08

friends.

32:09

this is a nice segue because you have nine

32:11

steps to building a relationship. And

32:14

that must have taken some time to

32:17

think about that structure. What

32:19

led you down that route?

32:22

it did and it didn't in the sense that

32:24

the structure actually is one that's used by intelligence

32:27

services everywhere. You know, if

32:29

it is in its place. Simplified

32:32

form. It's about the targeting,

32:35

cultivation, recruitment, and running

32:37

of a relationship, in secure terms.

32:40

And so it's everything from that

32:44

process of working out who it is you're going after

32:47

to the adoption of an appropriate cover. there's

32:49

an interesting area perhaps

32:51

to unpack to the commencement

32:54

of the cultivation, the use of elicitation

32:56

skills in order to understand better

32:58

what your targets motivations

33:01

are setting the

33:03

right recruitment pitch, and

33:05

then use of influence to maintain relation

33:07

to that relationship on a sound

33:10

footing in the cases.

33:14

Intelligence officers, strong

33:16

debriefing and detection

33:18

of deception skills, and then

33:20

setting up around that relationship.

33:24

The secure

33:26

environment called trade craft in the

33:28

business, and all of those

33:30

things have that they

33:32

are recognized steps in the

33:35

building of a relationship, but it's what makes

33:37

possible that extraordinary story

33:39

you told at the outset. It's what makes it

33:41

possible for the spy to sit down

33:43

and say, will you do this extraordinary

33:45

thing for me? And to give their

33:47

target the confidence to say yes. the

33:50

ability to create a secure

33:52

environment for. for that relationship through

33:55

tradecraft is equally important as the

33:57

targeting, is equally important as the

33:59

elicitation, is equally important as the motivation.

34:01

So it took me some time to

34:04

piece it all together in a way that

34:07

makes sense in civilian terms,

34:10

but the process is the process is the process.

34:13

And it applies whether or not the practitioner

34:16

of it is. Chinese or Taiwanese

34:19

or South African or

34:21

British or American or Irish or whatever.

34:24

So actually in a funny sort of way, one,

34:26

I've had one or two less obliging reviews

34:29

saying there's nothing new in this book. That's

34:32

my point. that is

34:34

precisely my point. Spies

34:38

don't have access to a suite of skills

34:40

that are denied to the rest of us. They just

34:42

use the skills that we can all use.

34:44

And we all do use on a daily basis

34:47

in an intentful and purposeful manner. And

34:49

guess what you can too. And

34:52

if you choose what that intent

34:54

and that purpose is, you can turn that

34:57

set of skills to almost any end.

34:59

If you think about it.

35:01

As you were describing those nine SERPs,

35:04

with the exception of elicitation, you've

35:06

described how I find security

35:08

circle podcast guests.

35:11

Well, there you are. I mean, what

35:13

a brilliant, actually, I can't think of a better

35:16

analogy. That's precisely it.

35:18

you have, if you think about it, you've persuaded

35:20

me to come on your podcast

35:21

and

35:22

in inverted commas, give up my time

35:25

and talk to you and you gain something

35:27

from it. I gained something from it. We also

35:29

happened to get on incredibly well and I think there's

35:31

chemistry there and that's great.

35:33

Yeah.

35:33

You did the targeting, you did the cultivation, you've

35:36

done the recruitment and here we

35:38

are. You kindly helped me

35:40

set up, as I fumbled

35:42

around with my IT, you helped me set up a secure environment

35:45

in which we could manage this relationship. So thank

35:47

you very much. I absolutely, um

35:49

grateful for your management of the relationship

35:52

in, in, in using those

35:54

steps that I outline in the book. It's

35:56

a great analogy.

35:58

I started thinking also how other people

36:00

can apply it when they're looking for customers.

36:03

They are looking to manage customer

36:05

relationships and some of the best

36:07

sellers, some of the best, gurus

36:09

in relationship management or targeting

36:12

your customer always talk about

36:14

finding a commonality, something

36:16

that, you know, your potential customer likes. It

36:18

could be golf, for example. So, you

36:20

know, you do a bit of research on what they like to do.

36:22

So when you go along, you can use a golfing analogy

36:24

and it's, Oh, you like golf? Yeah, I like golf. And

36:26

then all of a sudden you're building a rapport, a

36:28

neuralistic program comes into a lot.

36:30

So maybe, like you said, there are a lot of things,

36:33

a lot of components that we are

36:35

using as professionals that are ultimately,

36:38

imagine reading your book and then having it all

36:40

in one space. Wow. Yeah.

36:42

Well,

36:43

thank you for that. I'm going to put a shout out for

36:45

another author, actually, who wrote a book, his

36:47

name's Jeremy Hurovitz, and he

36:50

published a book which came out a few

36:52

months after mine called Sell Like a Spy.

36:55

It is an exploration

36:57

of the use of espionage

36:59

skills in the sales arena. Say in the book

37:02

that I don't think a spy is like

37:04

a salesperson because

37:06

although the relationship is transactional, they're

37:09

looking for intelligence and often they're paying

37:12

for that intelligence. Actually,

37:14

that's more like a very highly specialized procurement

37:17

officer when I think about it than it is

37:19

somebody who's selling something because they're

37:22

buying the intelligence. However, my

37:25

perspective on that was changed when I read Jeremy's

37:28

book. I do think there are many.

37:31

elements of the sales process,

37:34

which are equivalent

37:36

to the process of cultivation,

37:39

recruitment, and management of

37:41

a relationship between a spy and their target. And

37:44

you just had to buy one, which is commonality.

37:47

And can I, I'll tell a story about commonality. This

37:51

was in Zimbabwe. I think

37:53

a little bit of it, plays into

37:55

something you mentioned earlier, the ability to keep your

37:57

head in quite difficult circumstances.

38:00

And I was never actually entirely convinced

38:02

that I could, but

38:04

actually when I find myself often in

38:07

very challenging circumstances, a certain

38:09

coolness Kicks in.

38:12

And this is a case in point.

38:14

I was visiting Zimbabwe

38:18

shortly after the 2008 elections,

38:20

which have been pretty fraught. I

38:23

won't go into the history lesson about Zimbabwe's

38:26

politics, but I think we all recognize that

38:30

there was a very, very Difficult

38:32

relationship between the UK

38:34

and Zimbabwe for many years, and perhaps

38:38

the peak of that was around 2008

38:41

when, Mugabe and his suggs bullied

38:43

their way to a victory. I

38:46

make no bones about it saying that,, I

38:48

visited that country shortly afterwards. It's a country

38:50

I know well and have huge affection

38:52

for. I think the vast majority of Zimbabweans

38:54

are victims. in my experience

38:56

are uniformly wonderful people. But

38:59

they are, and have been abused

39:02

over the years by Mugabe and

39:04

his regime and perhaps

39:06

his successor. I have

39:08

many friends in Sarnia

39:10

PF, which was the, Which is the ruling

39:13

party, many of whom

39:15

were educated in places in the UK

39:18

and actually very pro Brit. If

39:20

you strip away some of that political

39:23

superficiality. Now on one occasion I was

39:25

visiting one of these friends, pretty

39:27

much on the top floor of the ZarnoPF

39:30

headquarters, and I kid you not, the ZarnoPF

39:32

headquarters are on a street called Rotten

39:34

Row. Somebody

39:38

has a sense of humor. Somebody has a sense of humor.

39:40

But then I was brought up in a part of Birmingham

39:43

called Rotten Park, spelled

39:46

with an O rather than an E. Anyway,

39:49

I was there in the Zona PF headquarters

39:51

and I'd had a very good chap,

39:53

a friend of mine, who's

39:55

a senior figure in the party. And

39:57

I climbed into the

40:00

lights right in the stairwell and

40:02

I was slightly claustrophobic. So I was a

40:04

bit reluctant to go in the lift, but it was

40:06

too dark really to use the stairwell

40:09

safely. So I climbed into the lift and

40:12

it sort of held my breath, hoping

40:14

that there wasn't going to be a power cut. And we came

40:16

down one floor and the doors opened and a group

40:18

of. youth leaguers walked in

40:20

and youth leaguers are sort of renowned for

40:22

going around the country, sort of knocking

40:25

heads. And they

40:27

were all obviously reasonably

40:29

drunk on

40:32

the local, Chibuku, a local

40:34

brew, quite evil brew. You could smell it

40:36

on their breaths. And they were

40:38

heavily armed with pangas, which are, you

40:40

know, this long bladed. Tools,

40:43

which can be used for everything from cutting

40:46

hedges to decapitating people. They were,

40:48

they're the weapon of choice during the Rwandan genocide

40:50

in 1994. You know, really rather

40:52

evil instruments. They're all sort of

40:54

wielding these things. They kept

40:57

piling in to the

40:59

lift. So until there was barely

41:01

room to move. So there's a group of these

41:04

youth leaguers and then two slightly

41:06

better dressed, suited

41:08

gentleman in the corner. And

41:11

I thought, well,, I'm just going to

41:13

keep quiet and sort of shrink into the corner. And

41:16

we started descending again. And then suddenly

41:18

with a jolt, the lift came to a

41:20

halt between floors. So that just the

41:23

worst thing that could possibly have happened

41:25

at that moment. But of course it was overloaded

41:27

as well as everything else. Uh,

41:30

and then the lights went out and bear

41:32

in mind, I've said that I was,

41:35

I am claustrophobic, um,

41:37

I saw, I'm going to, you know, I'm

41:40

going to have to really manage myself not to panic

41:42

in these circumstances, sort of breathe in this rancid

41:45

air, people

41:47

crushing up against me, but I really wanted

41:49

some light. So there was, I fished

41:52

out my mobile phone and I used the torch

41:54

function on the phone. And

41:57

of course that just drew attention. To

41:59

me, suddenly I

42:01

was the subject of interest for quite a lot,

42:04

quite drunk, quite angry, agitated

42:07

Sarno Piaf youth leaguers who

42:09

got it into their heads that I must be

42:12

a British spy. What

42:14

was I doing there? Who was I visiting? What was

42:16

this Brit doing in a lift in

42:19

Sarno Piaf headquarters? And all the venom

42:22

started to come out. It was quite uncomfortable.

42:24

And I, I make

42:26

no bones about it. I was scared. My

42:30

instinct kicked in or training kicked in or

42:32

something kicked in. So

42:34

I started looking for an ally.

42:37

And what do you look for in an ally? Primarily

42:39

you look for commonality. So

42:43

first of all, I focused on the two men

42:45

who were in suits. For a start, that's, at

42:48

least it suggested they were. probably

42:50

a bit more senior. And then on the lapel

42:52

of one of these gentlemen, I

42:54

noticed an old beaten up enamel

42:57

badge and it just had the word United on it.

43:00

And I don't really know anything about

43:02

football. I really don't, or soccer.

43:05

but I know enough about it

43:07

to surmise that that was likely to be

43:09

a reference to Manchester United. I

43:13

think it was half the remainder of a, of

43:15

an enamel badge. I

43:18

thought, okay, I don't know anything about football,

43:20

but I can pretend a commonality

43:23

which doesn't exist. So I caught

43:25

this chap's eye and I said to him, Oh, how

43:28

was the game the other night? I

43:31

had no idea whether there'd been a game the other night or not,

43:33

it just, it was, but I had

43:35

to do something. And he sort of looked

43:37

at me quizzically for a while and then broke into a smile

43:39

and he said, yeah, it was great. And,

43:43

started singing the praises of one of the players and

43:45

then somebody else piped up from over

43:47

the. The other side of the lift saying that

43:49

it's not him. Ronaldo is the greatest player.

43:51

And suddenly we're into the middle

43:53

of this very spirited debate about

43:56

British football, one

43:58

of the most high profile British football teams. And

44:01

all these anti Brits were debating

44:03

the merits of these different football teams

44:06

and knowing nothing about it.

44:08

I didn't venture

44:11

very much, but I did throw in the odd question.

44:13

By the time the lift

44:15

had started working again, and we got down to

44:17

the ground floor, all of those people who

44:19

had been angry and jostling

44:22

were now mates. And

44:25

that was all about establishing a commonality.

44:28

It's a commonality that didn't actually exist,

44:30

but I created it. So there's a little bit about creation

44:34

of cover there as well. In

44:36

the instant I was creating a

44:38

cover of being somebody who was a football

44:40

fan could establish that commonality

44:43

with them because I know enough about

44:45

many African countries that they

44:48

do have an obsession with British football in fact.

44:51

The subject of commonality is phenomenal.

44:53

You could have an apartment block

44:55

in a pretty run down area of

44:58

a city where nobody gets on. But

45:00

the minute that apartment block

45:03

is on fire. And everybody is

45:05

standing outside all of a sudden they're

45:07

united in this, almost

45:09

vitriol of how could this fire have happened

45:11

with this is our home and all of a sudden the commonalities

45:14

come to the forefront and people start

45:16

to form alliances and support

45:18

for each other and like for each other. It's

45:21

phenomenal, isn't it? How that's such

45:23

an intrinsic part of our human society.

45:25

We often find commonality and adversity.

45:28

That's absolutely true. And

45:30

I think that's why in the past people fighting

45:32

together in the two world wars.

45:35

I think probably played quite a big part in

45:37

establishing British identity.

45:40

I'm not passing judgment on it one way or the other. It's

45:42

just an observation that there is a

45:44

lot of commonality to be drawn from adversity.

45:46

And actually there's some hope there, isn't it? I suspect Without

45:50

getting too political, I suspect we're in for some pretty

45:52

rough times And I hope that the

45:54

adversity that we will face, whether that's economical,

45:56

political or social, will actually draw

45:59

people together rather than drive them apart. I think

46:01

that's the most optimistic assessment

46:04

I can make of it.

46:05

We've been through a diluted, version

46:07

of where we are now. A few years ago, when

46:10

Trump first had his, first

46:12

position of power as president of the United States.

46:14

And we had the same COVID. And COVID, I feel,

46:17

put a pause on everything. It just

46:19

put a pause on everything. It's the only way I could describe

46:21

it. It's like having a VHS machine and just pressing

46:24

pause. Everyone in their

46:27

communities supported, they liked

46:29

each other. People met people they didn't know

46:31

before. There was a whole new way of thinking.

46:33

It was actually a really nice model. Now

46:36

I feel like everything, that pause has come

46:38

off and everything is almost, heightened.

46:41

My thought leadership question to

46:43

you is, when you look at how

46:46

Elon Musk's X is

46:48

a mirror to society, we talked about

46:51

this in the debrief, it's holding a mirror to

46:53

society, I find it quite ugly.

46:56

I don't like what I see. I don't like

46:58

being a part of it. And it

47:00

has a very negative impact on me. And I don't have

47:02

any anxieties or depressions or anything

47:04

like this. So imagine somebody who

47:06

does have anxieties and depressions

47:08

where this would have a greater impact

47:11

on that individual. And then

47:13

you weigh into that, the knowledge that security

47:15

professionals have around geopolitics

47:17

and hostile threat actors. And you think

47:19

you can't help but think we're moving into a very

47:22

acerbic. bitter disenfranchised

47:25

society that is even more susceptible

47:28

to the hostile threat actors. So

47:31

if it was hard to find somebody who

47:33

was going to turn on their country 30 years

47:35

ago, it's going to be very easy now

47:37

because their people are not. As

47:39

loyal as they would have been. What do you think

47:41

to that?

47:43

Wow. There's quite a lot to unpack there.

47:45

You get that on the security.

47:47

Indeed. Uh,

47:50

I mean, that is sort of a potted

47:52

threat assessment by the security service

47:54

and in one, one or two paragraphs,

47:57

say you landed. Where to start? I. Sort

47:59

of agree with you about COVID, but

48:01

I also disagree with you in a profound

48:04

way. I think one of

48:06

the problems, whatever the rights

48:08

and wrongs of lockdown, and I really don't want to get

48:10

into that, but what it did was it forced

48:12

us into this sort of

48:15

arrangement. Teams

48:17

meetings and zoom meetings, which

48:21

are great, but they're nowhere

48:23

near as great as the real thing, which is face to face

48:25

meetings. And I think a lot of the

48:27

problems that we now face, particularly

48:30

young people are related

48:32

to that. The. I

48:35

say to people, IT is

48:38

fantastic. Technology is fantastic.

48:40

Communications systems are

48:42

wonderful, but remember that's all

48:44

they are. They are communication

48:46

systems. They are a way of connecting you

48:48

and me quicker and

48:51

more efficiently than might've been the

48:53

case previously. So for the way in which we're

48:55

using those communication systems

48:57

now, you and I, Yolanda,

48:59

it's fantastic. But

49:02

I have a feeling that some

49:04

people during COVID and

49:07

before then, and after then have

49:09

become too reliant on the systems

49:11

themselves. And so they

49:13

are mixing up, the medium

49:17

with the practice, with the users of the medium

49:19

and losing that vital thing,

49:21

which is personal interaction. So

49:25

if we take, I have

49:27

never used Twitter, or I've never

49:29

used X and I never would. I

49:33

avoid it because I

49:35

don't see its utility, really.

49:37

I don't think that you can distill

49:39

anything important into a few words. And I think

49:41

the very idea of it was harmful

49:44

from the outset. I

49:46

wouldn't control it. I wouldn't censor it.

49:48

I wouldn't do anything with it. I just allow it

49:50

to be what it is.

49:54

But what I would do is particularly for young people

49:56

is. Urge them to

49:59

lift their heads from it and

50:01

to do the most important thing that we can all do, which

50:03

is interact in real life

50:06

with other people and establish communication

50:08

and connection in real life. And

50:10

it's those connections, it's when you get to

50:12

know the other, that the fear

50:15

of the other begins to dissolve. You don't

50:17

get to know anybody really.

50:20

Through a screen. You certainly don't get to know people

50:22

when you're obsessed with how many followers you

50:24

have on, whether or not it's

50:28

Twitter or blue sky or LinkedIn.

50:30

Even you

50:32

get to know people by sitting

50:34

down with them face to face, reading their

50:37

emotions, engaging with them,

50:39

being tactile if you need to be tactile.

50:42

And that's what dissolves conflict.

50:45

So yeah, it is

50:47

fantastic. Communication technology.

50:49

Wonderful. But use it as. what

50:52

it is, a tool, and don't make it

50:54

a central part of your life. That's what I implore

50:56

everybody, especially young people.

50:59

Oh, it's interesting that you use the word dissolve conflict

51:01

because Gene Roddenberry prophesizes

51:04

this in Star Trek and talks about

51:06

how the technology, It

51:08

doesn't give an opportunity for conflict to dissolve.

51:10

Do you remember the episode where, people

51:13

wore bracelets and if their bracelet was activated, they

51:15

had to go and walk into a device and Jim

51:17

Kirk learns, because obviously Jim and I would

51:19

be friends for years now. We're

51:22

on first name terms. But Jim Kirk realizes.

51:24

Oh, good old

51:24

Jim. I

51:25

was just at the

51:26

pub with him the other day.

51:27

He's a top bloke,

51:30

he's been to space. These people, they just voluntarily

51:32

go and walk into this capsule that ultimately

51:35

kills them. That's the technology

51:37

doing nothing to resolve conflict. And I

51:39

always remembered that, even though, the

51:41

wood and scenery and the, but it was great

51:44

principle.

51:45

Isn't it interesting when you look back at some of

51:47

those, apparently quite fantastical

51:50

ideas, whether it's Star Trek or

51:52

1984,

51:55

Philip K. Dick's books and actually how

51:57

much of it is coming to pass. It's

51:59

scary. It is quite scary. I

52:03

remain optimistic because one

52:07

of the things that worried me, let's go back to COVID.

52:09

It makes me laugh that you're a former spy,

52:12

but you remain optimistic. I

52:14

think it's almost healing to hear that.

52:18

Yeah. I think it's important to get out of that

52:20

world actually. It's important,

52:22

whatever you do to lift your eyes

52:24

from the immediacy

52:27

of your day to day work. The

52:29

reason I'm positive is because I

52:32

did worry during lockdown

52:34

that we were going to enter an

52:37

era when people were atomized.

52:40

There's a great book called, The

52:42

Future is Analog. David Sachs,

52:45

I think wrote it. And I recommend it again.

52:48

As he puts it, we dreamed of this future

52:50

and everything would be online. We dreamed of this future

52:52

where all of our lives would be managed through IT. And

52:55

then overnight, we had it. because

52:58

of lockdown and we hated it.

53:01

And you know what? I think he's right. I

53:04

think we were grateful for

53:06

it. We were grateful for the fact that you were able

53:08

to make connections, sustain connections,

53:13

outside of real life. But

53:15

boy, did we want to run back to

53:18

interpersonal human connection as soon

53:20

as we could.

53:21

Let me robustly challenge that, Julian,

53:24

with a completely

53:27

different perspective. I definitely

53:29

sit in the paragraph of people who,

53:32

were definitely during COVID relieved

53:34

they didn't have to lie to anyone about why they didn't

53:36

want to go to an event anymore, because we were quite

53:38

happy being at home. And

53:41

for the introverts out there that weren't

53:43

bouncing off the walls because we couldn't go

53:45

out, have a run, or we couldn't

53:47

go around and breathe the same air as other humans,

53:50

we were incredibly content

53:52

that we didn't have to breathe the air of other

53:54

humans and that we could stay away

53:57

from them and we could live and breathe

53:59

and smell the coffee, it's

54:01

definitely a tale of two worlds in the sense

54:03

of introverted and extroverted.

54:06

people. But when you look at how Sam Smith

54:08

was dealing with COVID, a true

54:11

narcissistic approach to where

54:14

I can't do this because I need

54:16

to be around people to validate

54:19

my existence. Yeah. Those people

54:21

really struggled on the extreme

54:23

end of the spectrum. Yeah.

54:25

I think I can see it from both sides., I'm an

54:28

introvert. Actually, I know there's nothing

54:30

I enjoy more really than periods

54:33

of introverted reflection. And

54:35

that's where I get my, that's where I recharge

54:38

my batteries. But I think there's sometimes a bit

54:40

of a misunderstanding about introversion, which

54:42

is this idea that introverts don't want

54:44

to engage with people at all. I'm certainly not going to speak

54:46

for you, Yolanda, you look at you, you're engaging with

54:48

a lot of people, professionally and

54:50

personally, even. To create

54:52

these podcasts. So protest

54:55

all you like, but I

54:57

would say this about, introversion, my

54:59

understanding of it is about

55:01

the need sometimes to withdraw from society,

55:03

to recharge your batteries so you can go back

55:06

out and re engage. And that re engagement

55:08

thing remains as important

55:10

to me as an introvert as the periods

55:13

of introverted reflection.

55:16

A lot of people ask me why I do the podcast

55:18

and I can only say,

55:20

and I'm going to base this on something we talked

55:22

about. You said that the book

55:25

is aimed at younger people, but

55:27

I can't help but think having spoken to

55:29

you and listened to you and reflected that

55:32

you kind of need to be of an older age to appreciate

55:34

why you need this book.

55:35

It's a wonderful thing. What a shame it's wasted on

55:37

the young. It

55:40

is. I have. Well, first

55:42

of all, I have to say it's not

55:44

just for younger people. I think there's something

55:46

in it for everybody. You also said that

55:48

your listeners are lifelong

55:51

learners and there's, I hope there's material

55:53

in here, which lifelong learners will

55:57

benefit from as well as people

56:00

entering the workplace for the first time, for instance.

56:02

I think you're right that sometimes

56:05

younger people don't

56:08

necessarily, they're not necessarily

56:11

going to gain as much as. somebody

56:13

who's a bit older and had a bit more life experience.

56:16

And that's where, actually,

56:19

what I'm saying in the book is go

56:21

and find mentors, go and find guides,

56:23

go and find allies, because

56:26

the book itself, important

56:28

though it is actually only a guide,

56:31

a manual, a kit. To

56:35

a kit of skills to do

56:37

the thing I keep coming back to, which is building

56:39

relationships. And

56:42

for younger people, the most important thing I think

56:44

is building relationships with mentors,

56:46

older people who can help them to understand and navigate

56:49

the world a bit better. And that's probably more important

56:51

now than it's been for

56:53

as long as I can remember.

56:56

I think sometimes when I look at the geopolitics

56:59

of the world, and I'm only touching

57:01

the tip of the iceberg of it in my

57:03

knowledge and understanding and the holistic

57:05

security knowledge we collectively have

57:07

as security professionals. I

57:10

think the benefit I have to

57:12

this experience is surrounding

57:14

myself with an echo chamber of

57:16

incredibly smart, intelligent, optimistic

57:19

people who constantly learn. I

57:21

think that's why I do this. And

57:23

I wonder if that's why You write

57:26

Julian.

57:27

I think there's something in that. Let's go back

57:29

to very

57:32

briefly to lockdown because actually one thing I did

57:35

during that was write a novel.

57:38

And I'm sure I'm not alone in that. Sadly, it wasn't

57:41

to be published, but, it was a, I think

57:43

a worthwhile endeavor because it enabled me,

57:45

I think one of the important things about writing

57:48

fiction and nonfiction is it

57:50

gives us an opportunity to think

57:52

about our place in the world. And

57:56

to think about the importance of human relationships.

57:58

In the end, if you think about it, every

58:01

story is

58:03

about interpersonal relationships. So

58:06

writing feels like it's a solitary,

58:08

introverted activity. And indeed, of course it is

58:10

by necessity, but it is

58:12

also impossible to do well,

58:15

unless you have a

58:17

curiosity about the world and a curiosity about interpersonal

58:20

relationships. And here's the thing about storytelling.

58:22

I'm reading the book,

58:25

Christopher Booker's seven basic plots at

58:27

the moment. And what it comes down to

58:29

is it is every story

58:31

is about As far as I

58:33

can see, a version of recruitment. And

58:36

I write, whether

58:39

that's recruitment of self or recruitment of the

58:41

other, or recruitment of an alter ego. And

58:44

I write a substack,

58:46

Julianfisher. substack. com,

58:48

which explores this. Because

58:50

I'm fascinated by that question of why

58:52

we're all so fascinated by espionage. I

58:55

think I've arrived at the answer with the help

58:57

of Christopher Booker's work,

58:59

that it's because, actually, at the heart of espionage

59:02

is one very important thing, and that's interpersonal

59:04

skills.

59:06

Yes.

59:07

That's where all drama comes in, really,

59:11

it's not about car chases. It's not about the world

59:13

blowing up. It's about the

59:15

management and the blow ups within interpersonal

59:18

relationships. That's where we really find drama.

59:21

That's why writing, I think is about learning

59:23

because it's about reflection on precisely

59:26

that. The role that you play. Of us, our

59:28

own role in the world and that as a

59:30

people with which we engage.

59:32

Then you add into that the chess game, the

59:35

strategy, the intent, the purpose,

59:37

and then you've got yourself a healthy combination

59:40

of attributes, haven't you?

59:42

I like to think so. Yes.

59:44

But crucially again, and maybe

59:46

this is the note on which I want to end it. It's

59:48

a combination that is available to everybody

59:51

if they want to stop and think about how to develop

59:53

it.

59:54

Just reading this book alone,

59:56

it says at the back here, discover the secret skills

59:59

of influence used by spies and

1:00:01

learn how to adapt them to win people over

1:00:03

and achieve your goals. Apply

1:00:05

it in your everyday working

1:00:07

life. Julian Fisher, what can I say?

1:00:09

Think like a spy. Thank you so much for

1:00:11

coming in, sharing insights

1:00:14

about your book and also letting us

1:00:16

understand a little bit more about the author

1:00:18

as well.

1:00:19

Thank you so much, Yolanda, I say think

1:00:21

like a spy and I thank you for getting me to think

1:00:23

more about what I'm writing about as well.

1:00:26

That's why I think these sorts of podcasts

1:00:29

are so vital because they get everybody

1:00:31

to get everybody's intellectual juices flowing and that's,

1:00:34

that can only be a good thing.

1:00:36

Check out our transactional relationship.

1:00:39

Yeah. Look at that. Yay. Us.

1:00:41

Boom. Thanks

1:00:44

Yolanda. All the best.

1:00:46

Bye for now.

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