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Emmanuel Carrère on V13: “A unique experience of horror, pity, proximity and presence…”

Emmanuel Carrère on V13: “A unique experience of horror, pity, proximity and presence…”

Released Wednesday, 4th December 2024
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Emmanuel Carrère on V13: “A unique experience of horror, pity, proximity and presence…”

Emmanuel Carrère on V13: “A unique experience of horror, pity, proximity and presence…”

Emmanuel Carrère on V13: “A unique experience of horror, pity, proximity and presence…”

Emmanuel Carrère on V13: “A unique experience of horror, pity, proximity and presence…”

Wednesday, 4th December 2024
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0:12

Good evening, everyone. Welcome

0:14

to Shakespeare and Company. Shortly

0:17

after 9 p.m. on .m. on Friday November

0:20

suicide bombers blew themselves up bombers

0:22

blew themselves up outside the Stade de

0:24

France, while France played Germany in a

0:26

football match attended by Hollande. Hollande. following morning 130

0:29

1 a .m. the following morning down in victims

0:31

were dead, gunned down in the restaurants and

0:33

on the terraces of the 10th and

0:35

11th in the Battaclin in the hall. Another 416 Hall. were injured,

0:37

almost 416 people were injured,

0:39

almost 100 of them two more died in

0:41

a shootout with of the attackers were also killed and

0:43

two more died in a shootout with police a

0:45

few days after. after. Almost

0:47

six years later, in in September 2021, in

0:49

a specially in a specially built just

0:51

just across the river from here in

0:53

the Pali da Justis, the trial began of 20

0:55

men accused of involvement in these

0:57

attacks. attacks. Fourteen were were present, six were

1:00

six were tried in and only and

1:02

only one, had taken part had taken part

1:04

in the attacks themselves, being the others

1:06

being involved in the planning, logistical support

1:08

or assisting the terrorists. With

1:11

a of mostly second several

1:13

of whom had so far refused to testify, many

1:16

wondered if the immense white box built

1:18

to house the built turn out to be

1:20

an immense white elephant. to be an immense much,

1:22

returning little. much, returning

1:25

yet what becomes clear while reading clear

1:27

while reading V13, Emmanuel Carre's account of

1:29

the proceedings. of the is

1:31

that for those present, that for defendants,

1:33

victims, lawyers, judges, journalists

1:35

and observers, and it was

1:37

anything but. anything but. Instead, the

1:39

criminal trial, the longest in French

1:41

legal history, became, as became, as near the

1:43

end of his account, writes a unique

1:45

experience of horror. a unique experience

1:48

of horror, pity, presence. and

1:50

presence. How it so so is many ways

1:52

the subject of the book of also

1:54

of our conversation tonight. conversation tonight. A A

1:56

collection of the the authors for Lobs

1:58

magazine. Lobs magazine, is a work benefits from

2:00

the immediacy of having been written as a

2:03

weekly chronicle, in which the author offered himself

2:05

up, in mind but also in body, so

2:07

that readers too could take their place on

2:09

the courtroom benches, be part of this unique

2:12

experience. V13 is almost unbearably moving in ways

2:14

I had anticipated. but also profound and humane

2:16

in ways that I hadn't. It shows the

2:18

best and worst in us and the vast

2:21

gray areas in between. To my mind, it

2:23

is an immensely important work of literature, which

2:25

is why I'm not only very pleased that

2:27

it's now available to English readers, but also

2:30

that I have the opportunity to discuss it

2:32

with the author tonight. Please join me in

2:34

welcoming Emmanuel Carrere to Shakespeare and Company. Thank

2:42

you Adam, thank you for coming.

2:45

I just I must apologize for

2:47

my English which is what it

2:49

is but I will and we

2:52

will do our best. You will

2:54

help me. We certainly will. When

2:57

I was reading V13, one of

2:59

the things that kept coming to

3:01

mind was actually the first sentence

3:04

of your previous book, Yoga, where

3:06

in the English translation you say,

3:08

seeing as I have to start

3:11

somewhere, and you go on to

3:13

choose a point where you started

3:16

the book, and of course, later

3:18

in writing the book, you would

3:20

choose a point where the book

3:23

ended. In the case of V13,

3:25

of course, the situation was different.

3:27

didn't choose the start or the

3:30

end, it was the start or

3:32

the end of the trial. And

3:34

you didn't in a sense choose

3:37

the narrative because in another way

3:39

that was almost imposed by the

3:42

court itself. So to begin, could

3:44

we talk a little bit about

3:46

V13 almost as a literary project?

3:49

How did it feel different to

3:51

your previous books? And did you

3:53

feel restrained by these constraints or

3:56

in some way liberated? D.

4:00

only real decision that

4:02

I made was to

4:04

attempt the trial. So

4:06

to decide that, I

4:08

will attend this trial,

4:10

which was supposed to

4:12

last six months, and

4:14

which in fact lasted

4:16

nine months every day,

4:18

go every day to

4:20

the Palais Justice, very

4:22

close from here. And

4:25

to help me to

4:27

do this, I submitted

4:29

the idea of the

4:31

weekly magazine Lops to

4:33

write a column every

4:35

week about that. And

4:37

they said, well, they

4:39

said yes, and I

4:41

am grateful to them

4:43

for this, because, you

4:45

know, it's not, it's

4:47

something for a newspaper

4:49

to take the, to

4:51

the Saint-Gégé Commendé, to

4:54

commit to publish every

4:56

week, two pages of

4:58

the, you know, there

5:00

are also, actually, there

5:02

are a lot of

5:04

things that can seem

5:06

more important, and they

5:08

said, no, you will

5:10

have your two pages.

5:12

every week and they

5:14

never never no actuality

5:16

justified to take me

5:18

my to take me

5:21

my two pages and

5:23

that was all I

5:26

In fact, I thought

5:28

that, well, I committed

5:30

myself to do this,

5:32

but I said, I

5:34

told myself and told

5:37

them the people of

5:39

Lops that if it

5:41

was, if I didn't

5:43

want to do it

5:45

anymore, well, I can

5:48

quit, it's not. And

5:50

I was never tempted

5:52

to quit. Even if

5:54

it was sometimes extremely,

5:56

come on, the terrifying,

5:59

the ex- emotionally,

6:02

something very, very, very,

6:05

something terrible. It was

6:07

also sometimes extremely boring.

6:09

And even when it

6:12

was boring, it was

6:14

interesting. And I never,

6:16

never felt the temptation

6:19

to leave this. In

6:21

fact, even if old,

6:23

old what that was

6:26

terrible, Honestly, I say

6:28

that I liked to

6:30

come to this court

6:33

every day for weeks

6:35

and weeks and months

6:37

and months back. Also,

6:40

when you do this,

6:42

there is also some

6:45

kind of community, there

6:47

is something, and also

6:49

I really enjoyed this.

6:52

this process of writing.

6:54

I had to write

6:56

to give to on

6:59

Monday morning to loves

7:01

the dispatches I have

7:03

written during the weekend.

7:06

It was exactly the

7:08

same. the same number

7:10

of signs. I remember

7:13

7,7, 8,800 signs. Are

7:15

these signs from these?

7:17

Letters. Letters. Letters. It's

7:20

in English, it's words

7:22

for us, it's letters.

7:25

And I never give

7:27

them back, give it

7:29

late, I never wrote

7:32

more or less than

7:34

my, the amount of

7:36

letters that was decided.

7:39

So there was something

7:41

very... sounds

7:43

strange because if you consider

7:45

the what was the emotional

7:48

content of this that you

7:50

know for the writer that

7:52

I was it was very

7:54

comfortable I really enjoyed doing

7:56

this on the subject of

7:58

the writing because of course

8:00

you had that weekly column

8:03

and you had to write

8:05

it because what you could

8:07

have done I suppose is

8:09

attend the trial and then

8:11

begin the book afterwards. But

8:13

of course my sense was

8:16

that that would have been

8:18

a fundamentally different book. and

8:20

a fundamentally different Emanuel career

8:22

writing that book. Certainly, in

8:24

fact, that I have been

8:26

thinking about doing this, I've

8:29

been thinking of doing a

8:31

book, writing a book, attending

8:33

exactly what you say, attending

8:35

the trial, and then write

8:37

a book after using all

8:39

the notes that I'm... It

8:41

would have been a different

8:44

book, in fact... I

8:50

have to say that. I don't

8:52

know what would have been this

8:54

book. So I think I prefer

8:57

this one because because Well,

9:01

if you write a book

9:03

about that, maybe, or maybe

9:05

I would have been a

9:07

bit paralyzed by the idea

9:09

that it was such a

9:11

huge sugé, something so important

9:13

that it would have been

9:15

a bit solemn. And the

9:17

fact of writing this, you

9:19

know, on this weekly written,

9:21

there was something more, maybe

9:23

more spontaneous, more, well, who

9:25

can compare what exists to

9:27

what doesn't exist it doesn't

9:30

matter but but well there

9:32

was a moment where I've

9:34

been thinking well first I

9:36

write these these these dispatches

9:38

every week and then I

9:40

write the big book and

9:42

in fact I had no

9:44

desire to write the big

9:46

book after that. I didn't

9:48

have the smallest desire to

9:50

spend one or two more

9:52

years of my life with

9:54

writing about GED. it's it's

9:56

so I don't know what

9:58

is the adjective it's yeah

10:01

we we you said we

10:03

can't compare obviously a book

10:05

that exists with a book

10:07

that doesn't exist but we

10:09

can in one sense compared

10:11

it with with your previous

10:13

books and one feeling I

10:15

had I felt a different

10:17

Emmanuel Carre, in the sense

10:19

to, for example, the one

10:21

we might find in yoga

10:23

or the one we might

10:25

find in l'orium, in as

10:27

much as, I think, both

10:29

of those books, as much

10:32

as they are about the

10:34

subjects, are also, you are

10:36

also the subject of those

10:38

books, your life and your...

10:40

your mind. Whereas I think

10:42

it functions in a slightly

10:44

different way with the V13

10:46

and the only way I

10:48

could think to describe it

10:50

is almost like you act

10:52

almost as like a vessel

10:54

through which your reader could

10:56

experience the trial and it

10:58

felt like a new thing.

11:00

Yeah. Maybe, no I guess

11:03

it's... It's

11:06

out of

11:08

minimum decency.

11:11

Yes, I

11:14

felt a

11:17

bit well.

11:22

Rel relieved of myself in

11:24

it. As you say, it's

11:26

as if I was, I

11:28

am watching, listening, thinking, trying

11:30

to give my impressions, but

11:33

it's not, de sombre presence,

11:35

de discretes. Yes, yeah, very

11:37

discreet presence. Sometimes it's more

11:39

invasive. One thing, let's talk

11:41

a little bit about the

11:44

setup of the trial itself

11:46

because in many senses this

11:48

was a very unconventional trial.

11:50

It was unconventional obviously because

11:52

of the crime that being

11:55

tried. It was unconventional because

11:57

of the space. And you

11:59

talk a little bit about

12:01

how when they were deciding

12:03

where to hold the trial,

12:06

there was places that could

12:08

have held it but didn't

12:10

seem to have the gravitat

12:12

for such a trial. And

12:14

then there were places like

12:17

the Palais de Justis, which

12:19

feels like it has the

12:21

gravitat, but didn't have the

12:23

logistical capacity. So it ended

12:25

up in a sort of

12:28

a temporary white cube which

12:30

felt both in one sense

12:32

at least at the beginning

12:34

very very clinical and very

12:36

cold and almost abstract and

12:39

yet towards the end of

12:41

the book you describe you

12:43

use you compare it to

12:45

a cathedral in some sort

12:47

of would you be able

12:50

to just talk a little

12:52

bit about how you felt

12:54

about that space and how

12:56

your feelings towards it changed

12:58

as a trial progressed? There

13:00

was a very conscious will

13:03

of the French state to

13:05

make this trial, to make

13:07

it an example, like some,

13:09

you know, the answer of

13:11

democracy, of the law, the

13:14

state of law to Barbari.

13:16

And if you, well, It's

13:20

at the beginning, has

13:23

some other people, chronicleur

13:26

judicious, right? Legal journalists.

13:28

Yeah, legal journalists. I

13:31

was a bit, not

13:34

really, well, I thought

13:36

it was a bit,

13:41

It's a good intention,

13:43

a good intention, a

13:45

good intention, that it

13:47

was a bit worthy,

13:49

we might say. Yes,

13:51

yes, yes. And in

13:53

fact, it's what happened.

13:56

I really, I think

13:58

it's what happened. I

14:00

think this trial really

14:02

an example of what

14:04

should be, how justice

14:06

should function in a

14:08

democratic state. It was

14:10

not, you know, there

14:12

was reasons, there was

14:14

a lot of money

14:16

in it, and justice

14:19

usually is poor. But

14:21

this example, it worked.

14:23

I think it worked,

14:25

I think, and I

14:27

think that A

14:30

lot among the people who

14:32

wear, you know, the, the,

14:35

the, the party, civil, the

14:37

family, the, yeah, the, the,

14:39

the civil parties, the victims

14:41

and the families and the,

14:44

yeah, the plaintiffs, the plaintiffs,

14:46

yeah, the plaintiffs, yeah, among

14:48

the plaintiffs. I

14:51

don't know. There were people,

14:53

there were quite a lot

14:56

of people who at the

14:58

end of the trials, strangely

15:01

enough, say they were satisfied.

15:03

They were satisfied. They had

15:05

the feeling that something, you

15:08

know, you can't talk of

15:10

catacis or something, but there

15:12

was something of that kind

15:15

of happened. Because every, you

15:17

know, Everyone played his part

15:19

in the theater of the

15:22

justice at a very very

15:24

high level. The magistrates, the

15:26

lawyers, the... Even I think

15:29

the journalists, you know, all

15:31

this community of people who

15:33

gather there for every day

15:36

for almost one month, one

15:38

year, they took their... what

15:40

they were doing very, very

15:43

seriously. And there was a

15:45

very impressive dignity. Yeah. You

15:47

know, that's not the kind

15:50

of word that I use

15:52

easily, you know, like I

15:54

am the kind of guy,

15:57

I just, Jerry Canopu, I

15:59

am. I'm a

16:02

very well critical

16:04

usually and it

16:07

really was something

16:09

and to attend

16:11

this month

16:14

after month was really an

16:16

incredible experience. We'll talk a

16:18

little bit about the different

16:20

elements of what built up

16:22

to that experience and you

16:24

mentioned the the plaintiffs. Now

16:26

it's interesting because I can't

16:29

remember who it was that

16:31

said this to me but

16:33

I remember being told in

16:35

the past that the justice

16:37

system is not there for

16:39

the victims. The justice system

16:41

is there because society, the

16:44

nation or whatever has been

16:46

wounded, its rules have been

16:48

transgressed, and that is why

16:50

for example when there is

16:52

a murder trial you don't

16:54

let the parents of the

16:56

victim hand down the sentence.

16:58

And yet in this trial,

17:01

this decision was made to

17:03

give the first, I believe,

17:05

if I remember, five weeks

17:07

of testimony to the plaintiffs.

17:09

And first of all, as

17:11

a piece of writing, and

17:13

it's extraordinary, and it's a

17:16

difficult read, but it's a

17:18

very profound and very moving

17:20

read. Do

17:22

you think in one sense that

17:24

was tipping the scales of justice

17:26

in a way? Was that sort

17:28

of did they have to reinvent

17:30

justice for the trial to have

17:32

the effect you just described? First,

17:37

these five weeks of testimony

17:39

of the victims, of testimonies

17:42

of the victims, it was

17:44

impressive, it's not the word,

17:46

it was devastating, I don't

17:49

know what is the right

17:51

word, it was, you know,

17:54

we came back at home

17:56

and we spent the night

17:59

crying, it's even the less

18:01

sentimental of us. That, and

18:03

it creates a stranger situations

18:06

with the people we live

18:08

with, with my wife, my

18:11

friends, you know, you, you,

18:13

you, Listen, you see things

18:15

that it's not really possible

18:18

to communicate them. So for

18:20

there were weeks during which

18:23

the people with whom you

18:25

attended this were the closest

18:28

people to you because they

18:30

were the only people with

18:32

whom you shared this experience,

18:35

which was impossible to communicate.

18:37

It was so violent, so

18:40

moving some type of... But

18:43

it lasted five weeks and

18:46

after that there were weeks

18:48

and months of you know

18:51

of of explanations from policemen

18:53

from things and that is

18:56

so there was time for

18:58

this you know for this

19:01

incredible emotional, from this

19:04

amount of emotion to

19:06

be, if not forgotten,

19:09

but yeah, we're standing,

19:12

digested in some way.

19:14

Digested, metabolized, I would

19:17

say. You know, as

19:19

most of the lot

19:22

of writers are interested

19:24

in trials, in true

19:27

crimes, and some of

19:29

us write about them,

19:32

I did, I did,

19:34

I wrote a book

19:37

called The Adversary, which

19:40

is about a true

19:42

crime story, and In

19:46

fact, we are more

19:48

interested in the murderers

19:50

and the criminals than

19:52

in the in the

19:55

victims or in the

19:57

plaintiffs. The plaintiffs, the

19:59

victims, well, we are

20:01

we are we are.

20:03

for them, but what

20:05

seems interesting, fascinating is

20:08

the criminals. Here it

20:10

was the contrary. Here,

20:12

in fact, the criminals,

20:14

maybe because they were

20:16

a common voodoo second

20:18

stringers. Second stringers, Jeanette.

20:21

It's from your wonderful

20:23

translation, actually. When they

20:25

are second stringers. But

20:28

yeah, I think it would

20:31

have been the same with

20:33

the guys who were not

20:35

second stringers, but first stringers,

20:37

if it's something like that

20:39

exists, they were honestly desperately

20:42

uninteresting. We did our best

20:44

to get interested to them

20:46

because it's the work of

20:48

the justice to get interested

20:50

in the criminals and to

20:53

try to understand them. what

20:56

they said was they have

20:58

they had to say was

21:01

so poor so stupid so

21:03

well we tried to but

21:05

on the other hand I

21:07

don't I will not I

21:10

don't want to realize all

21:12

you know the the plaintiffs

21:14

or the survivors but there

21:16

was maybe I think something

21:19

like 300 of them who

21:21

took who came to the

21:23

bar and who was bailed.

21:25

20 minutes so sometimes one

21:28

hour to tell what happened

21:30

to them. All of them

21:32

were not as moving as

21:34

the other and I must

21:37

say that there is something

21:39

very cruel that there is

21:41

the logic of a casting.

21:43

That you know that also

21:46

for journalists they think well

21:48

this one is good. The

21:50

suffering is equal that some

21:52

of them are you know

21:55

have a They

21:57

are powerful, they have the right

22:00

words, they have the... have the

22:02

right presence, they are well, charisma,

22:04

I guess. But most of the

22:07

plaintiffs and the survivors, they were

22:09

the most interesting. Some of them

22:11

were incredibly moving and some of

22:14

them had the That's

22:16

not only that something terrible

22:18

happened to them, but they

22:20

found the words to them.

22:22

They found the way to

22:24

stand, the stance, the way

22:27

to be in front of

22:29

the court, of the accused,

22:31

which were on their left.

22:33

You know, there was the

22:35

court there. They were in

22:37

the bar and there they

22:40

were. There were

22:42

some, some of

22:44

them looked at

22:46

the accused, some

22:49

of them didn't.

22:51

And the different

22:53

stances, the different

22:55

way of being

22:58

there, the different

23:00

way of crossing

23:03

this terrible, terrible, terrible experience

23:05

that they have lived that

23:08

left them for, some of

23:10

them crippled from them traumatized

23:13

until the end of their

23:15

life or in the, or

23:18

in the, in the, in

23:20

the morning, is it? Well,

23:23

it was. a

23:26

human experience that

23:28

I never was

23:30

confronted to something

23:33

like that. And

23:35

that was not

23:37

only these five

23:40

weeks, which were,

23:42

as I said,

23:44

extremely moving. But

23:47

also, some of the, not

23:50

all of them, and some

23:52

of these plaintiffs, they stayed

23:54

there. They attempted the trial,

23:56

so they were interested. And

23:59

so they... slowly

24:01

there was a it

24:04

was there was a

24:06

become they began to

24:09

create an informal community

24:11

at the beginning at

24:14

the beginning from for

24:16

instance I was very

24:20

I was very shy, I

24:22

didn't dare to come to

24:24

see these people, but after

24:27

a moment, well, we went,

24:29

we met, we were in

24:32

the same, we didn't have

24:34

the same benches, different benches

24:36

for the press and for

24:39

the plaintiffs or for the.

24:41

But, for the public, that,

24:44

well, we began after slowly

24:46

to meet at the coffee

24:48

machine and to go and

24:51

for I've sandwiched outside at

24:53

the... And there was this,

24:55

I would say, a smaller...

25:00

I put maybe 100

25:02

people, I say maybe

25:04

80s, something like that,

25:06

of plaintiffs, journalists, lawyers,

25:09

who befriended in a

25:11

way, and some of

25:13

them became real friends

25:15

for me at least

25:17

among the plaintiffs, two

25:20

persons, that one which

25:22

is maybe one with

25:24

the... the one of

25:26

the heroes of this

25:29

of this book who

25:31

is like that and

25:33

who are still very

25:35

well friends we shared

25:37

something really important and

25:40

and I think it's

25:42

it's a cement for

25:44

a friendship for life

25:46

and there was also

25:49

for instance for something

25:51

that impressed me which

25:55

is also which illustrates

25:57

what I was saying.

26:00

the fact that

26:02

this trial was

26:04

a success, that

26:07

it worked. Usually,

26:09

and it's perfectly human,

26:11

the people who are

26:13

on the side of

26:15

the victims, they consider

26:17

that the lawyers of

26:19

the accused, well, they

26:21

are a bit like

26:23

them. If they defend

26:25

them, well, it means

26:27

that they are on

26:29

their side, which is

26:31

not true. But it's,

26:33

and here, and it

26:35

means it means a

26:38

great democratic maturity to

26:40

be able when you

26:42

have been your, when

26:44

maybe your loved one

26:46

was murdered or you

26:48

have been crippled or

26:50

something like that at

26:52

the Batak law, to

26:54

have coffee and discuss

26:56

absolutely in

26:58

a friendly way with someone

27:00

who is who is the

27:02

who defends one of not

27:04

the killers because they were

27:06

not the killers but one

27:08

who were on this side.

27:10

You know having this capacity

27:12

is it's it's something that

27:14

impressed me a lot and

27:16

it was not because they

27:18

were you know they had

27:20

this abstract idea of that

27:22

of the of the law

27:25

of democracy the state and

27:27

the power of the power

27:29

of the state and the

27:31

power of the power of

27:33

the But because we have

27:35

been all together in this

27:37

and that there was this

27:39

proximity which created naturally this

27:42

this capacity of which which impressed

27:44

me a lot. You mentioned Nadia.

27:46

There's a moment. There's this quite

27:49

remarkable thing that happens. Nadia lost

27:51

her daughter at the Labeliki Cafe,

27:53

which was a few hundred meters

27:56

from her house. And in the

27:58

and weeks and months I think

28:00

following the attacks her daughter's friends

28:03

would come and gather in their

28:05

apartment and the first time they

28:07

came they gathered and they sat

28:10

there in silence and then as

28:12

the days went on they started

28:14

speaking more and more about Lamia

28:17

the Nadia's daughter who was lost

28:19

and when I read that section

28:21

it put me in mind a

28:23

little bit there seemed a parallel

28:26

between what was happening at the

28:28

trial in a sense? Yes, yes,

28:30

yes, in a sense, yes, yes,

28:33

I would say that. Like there

28:35

was a community forming and also,

28:37

I don't know if it's overstating

28:40

it to say a healing taking

28:42

place. Healing, I don't know, catacis,

28:44

I don't know, but this, it

28:47

was about communities. There was a

28:49

community. The thing that happened in

28:51

this trial was not only a

28:54

commodity, the verdict, that it was

28:56

about to commit. And it was

28:58

not. It was not designed for

29:00

this. It was designed to illustrate

29:03

the power of law and it

29:05

succeeded. But there was this kind

29:07

of collateral effect which was the

29:10

creation of this community which I

29:12

felt really privileged to be a

29:14

witness. Can I talk about not

29:17

only to witness, to take part,

29:19

not only to witness, to take

29:21

part. Can we just talk a

29:24

little bit concerning the, I think

29:26

specifically the plaintiffs, your choices as

29:28

a writer? Because one thing that

29:31

interested me already was what, the

29:33

detail that had been filtered by

29:35

the trial. So already, I think

29:37

you talk about the case files,

29:40

if they'd been piled up, could

29:42

have been, I think it was

29:44

53 meters high. So that was

29:47

all of the details. Then they

29:49

produced a document of 300 or

29:51

some pages, which people read which

29:54

people read. And it struck me

29:56

that then your role as a

29:58

chronic... this was again in a

30:01

sense to act not necessarily as

30:03

a filter but to choose what

30:05

you are going to expose your

30:07

readers to and this seemed particularly

30:10

pertinent in the case of the

30:12

plaintiffs because of course you heard

30:14

a lot of very distressing things.

30:17

And in the book, we read

30:19

a lot of very distressing things,

30:21

but I also feel there were

30:24

choices made. So for example, when

30:26

you write about the Battaclon, and

30:28

there's a chapter titled La Fos,

30:31

so in English, in the pit,

30:33

I think it is. And in

30:35

this chapter, You

30:37

give the entire chapter to

30:40

the words. It's only about

30:42

him, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

30:44

Could you talk a little

30:47

bit about what informed those

30:49

choices? Well, you know, sometimes

30:51

what people said was so

30:53

powerful that the best I

30:56

felt I could do was

30:58

to quote, to open, to

31:00

quote, as precisely as I

31:03

can, because it was not,

31:05

you know, you can't tape,

31:07

you ought to, but I,

31:09

I, I, I, I wrote

31:12

as fast as I can.

31:14

I compared with some of

31:16

my colleagues wrote. And sometimes,

31:19

for instance, for the guy

31:21

who is the girl Maya.

31:23

Maybe one of the first

31:25

of these testimonies that was

31:28

so So that's well I

31:30

think the best thing I

31:32

can do is to is

31:35

to to to quote the

31:37

quote and to to last

31:39

try to to let you

31:41

hear her voice and and

31:44

also after there was two

31:46

weeks of three weeks of

31:48

testimonies of the bataklo and

31:52

I took a lot a

31:54

lot of those things like

31:56

that and there was a

31:59

moment I decided to take

32:01

one or two sentence from

32:03

each of the people who

32:05

had been telling the story

32:07

and to try to... to

32:10

make and to make

32:12

some kind of come

32:15

on derai editing like

32:17

a kind of oral

32:19

history yes of oral

32:21

history that is some

32:23

kind of compression of

32:25

the horror of the

32:28

batak long but that's

32:30

what I say is

32:32

said just before it

32:34

was it's very there

32:36

were really many testimonies

32:38

and and not all

32:41

of them were even

32:43

if the sufferings were

32:45

equal, the talent to

32:47

express them is not

32:49

equal. It's not really

32:51

fair, but there were

32:54

among these people who...

32:56

told their stories. Some

32:58

of them were, and

33:00

I, and you know,

33:02

me and my colleagues,

33:04

the other, uh, the

33:07

coniqueur, the other journalists,

33:09

basically, we choose the

33:11

same. It's, it's, uh,

33:13

That's what I said.

33:15

It's very, it's terrible.

33:17

It's cruel to think

33:20

that it works like

33:22

a casting. Yeah, at

33:24

the moment. And there

33:26

was this, this very,

33:28

very precise thing that

33:30

when people began their

33:33

testimony, we ordered the

33:35

journalists, we were, some

33:37

with laptops, some with

33:39

notebooks, some with notebooks,

33:41

we've, with notebooks, but

33:43

we've known books, but

33:46

expecting the beginning. Is

33:48

it worth making notes

33:50

or not? And if

33:52

the fingers, you know,

33:54

and when something, for

33:56

instance, Maya, everyone... Immediately,

33:59

well, yeah. after

34:01

two sentences, well, you thought that

34:03

it was it. You have to

34:05

get it. One thing with Maya,

34:07

and this was a subject I

34:10

wanted to come onto, I think

34:12

one of the things that's most

34:14

moving about the testimony as you

34:16

quoted, is, I mean, of course,

34:19

what happened on the night itself,

34:21

but also what her life has

34:23

become afterwards. And I can't remember

34:25

where the phrase is used now,

34:28

but this idea of living I

34:30

don't remember, it's the gentleman who,

34:32

well, will come on to him

34:34

in a minute, but he talked

34:37

about living a damaged life. And

34:39

before we come on to talk

34:41

about that, maybe now will be

34:43

a good time to read the

34:46

extracts. So Emmanuel is going to

34:48

read an extract in French, and

34:50

then I will read the same

34:52

extract from the English translation. A

34:57

emotion sha-slot, a concentrate on

34:59

humanity's sha-slot, a visage sha-slot.

35:01

The most particularly rapid o'er-soument

35:03

that's sheve, I will abode

35:05

in a race of collective

35:07

and accrueate in Castile. Shakine

35:10

Ivanula alabar, and you have

35:12

prepared his own text, invitees

35:14

fami, his family, and sesame.

35:16

This is a moment crucial

35:18

de sevee. As a faincere,

35:20

muegal, leisne en-trovile de cliche

35:22

and la se. O'boudin de

35:24

meers, séfine. The president d'isse,

35:26

mercy, m'er, de monsie. The

35:28

president d'is, mercy for all

35:31

the travées, ha-a-thorness, ha-a-a-wick-lézote. At

35:33

least, at the time we

35:35

have changed on their malleur

35:37

and their own pastel. The

35:39

companion is a tour, and

35:41

we are in a convari.

35:43

It is a good idea

35:45

that people have sat here

35:47

at the rest of the

35:49

place, or point that for

35:52

constable rapporteur d'oeuvres, and it

35:54

may process. place, a better

35:56

place, a better place, and

35:58

a better place, and a

36:00

better place, and a better

36:02

journey, the premier, and a

36:04

journey, and a journey, and

36:06

a journey, a lot more,

36:08

and a journey, a better

36:11

time, and a better time.

36:14

to work with a new patient

36:16

in total profiles of process, the

36:18

interrogator of his accusate, and a

36:21

situation where he is facing grisies,

36:23

with elmontrist, who is part of

36:26

the unique debtele, a new foreign

36:28

rapporteur or the supporter of the

36:30

French France Almani. The interview with

36:33

Brooklyn, but the idea of a

36:35

party, for a minute conscience that

36:37

you have acquired share, What's wrong

36:40

with you is, is that the

36:42

plan on Biance is a board

36:44

of state? It is the work

36:47

that it is sullved at the

36:49

south of the Une Expausion. Replies,

36:51

that the three terrorists who have

36:54

suffered a lot of asthma et

36:56

a second after the failure to

36:59

sedate a massac, but commissantarivate a

37:01

total porpointre, du nier, a partipan

37:03

puneisha, and we need notuic in

37:06

sole person. but

37:08

I'm not sure that project

37:10

a statue-exposive, and yet is

37:13

a crew. And it is

37:15

a crew that is a

37:17

crystal on the jude of

37:20

Maryland. And it is a

37:22

new capacity. We predict that

37:24

it is an arbitrary, but

37:27

no. The fijuayous that the

37:29

attain exists too poor. It

37:31

is a good idea, a

37:34

traversal Europe's accordo. It is

37:36

a few of the poor

37:38

who have made the may

37:41

viv, and a l'alcom d'afortome

37:43

de Fertome. The post-tintel Revique

37:45

has been a new-end-a-laclicence-y. So,

37:48

compuice de fe, and the

37:50

return eviuraptice. The met-n'humous, astumniac,

37:52

a puree, soutoument o'er-niac, a-pore,

37:55

suroutoument o'er-toury, who saw a-tourne,

37:57

a-tak, a-thoury, a-taw-taw-taw-a-taw-taw-taw-taw-a-taw-a-taw-taw-taw-taw-taw-a-a-taw-a-taw-taw-taw-a-taw-taw-a-taw-a-a-taw-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a- us de

37:59

France, I just have it.

38:03

Preatsure-de-strapesque-tullmaudublin, Marilyn,

38:06

but to-sur-surraled-tubber-amptitub-plastic,

38:09

the crude

38:12

of dismat-conest

38:15

extratesate-sauge, and

38:18

the sur-sak,

38:21

se-tub, devonle-akou,

38:24

el-lid, I'll

38:27

be al-hullmontre,

38:30

m'uilu-lion, I'll-lion-lionturelion-lion-lion-pris-prisseltub-prisseltub-prisseltub-prisseltub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub-tub

38:34

mercy. And this is the nut. So

38:36

this is in the English translation by

38:38

John Lambert. One emotion

38:41

dispels another. One part of humanity displaces the

38:43

next. The immense psychotherapy of the five weeks

38:45

that are now coming to an end has

38:47

had the beauty of a collective narrative and

38:50

the cruelty of a casting call. Each witness

38:52

came to the stand, read their prepared text,

38:54

invited family and friends. It was a crucial

38:56

moment in their life to describe what was

38:59

no doubt an equal amount of suffering. Some

39:01

found the right words and moved their listeners,

39:03

others reeled off cliches and bored them. After

39:05

half an hour it was time to move

39:08

on to the next. The presiding judge would

39:10

say, thank you for your comments, standard phrase,

39:12

or if the testimony was particularly powerful, thank

39:14

you for your moving words. After which the

39:17

speaker would head back up the aisle and

39:19

sit down with the others. The Battagong survivors

39:21

are lucky in their misfortune. They're not alone.

39:23

They're surrounded by others in the same situation.

39:26

They go drinking together. They form a brotherhood.

39:28

Since the start, they're the ones who have

39:30

attracted the most attention, to the extent that

39:33

it must be constantly pointed out that the

39:35

correct term is Paris attacks trial and not

39:37

Battagong trial. Those who were on the terraces

39:39

complain that they are already second-class victims, but

39:42

the truly forgotten are those who were at

39:44

the stab de France. They were only given

39:46

one day, the first, and that day now

39:48

seems a very long way off. Before we

39:51

move on to a completely different phase of

39:53

the trial, the questioning of the accused, I'm

39:55

reminded of one of these testimonies which has

39:57

not been. all but faded

40:00

into the past. past. That of

40:02

a of a graceful but very despondent young

40:04

woman who went with her TV crew

40:06

to do a report on the fans at

40:08

the the fans at the France-Germani match. piece was already

40:10

in the can, the but then in a second

40:12

thought that cost her dearly, she said they

40:14

should do some atmospheric shots outside the stadium.

40:16

outside the stadium. It was that she was

40:18

knocked off her feet by the blast. blast. Let's

40:21

recall that the the terrorists who blew themselves

40:23

up at the Stade de France the inept enough

40:25

were to do so inside the stadium the it

40:27

would have been a massacre, have but as

40:29

they got there too late to go inside, go

40:31

outside where there wasn't a soul around where where

40:33

they only managed to kill a single person.

40:35

which is not is not much in view of the general tragedy.

40:38

although although this one casualty is no less

40:40

dead and his children no less orphaned. Among

40:43

the things an explosive belt belt

40:45

projects and screws and screws, one of

40:47

the nuts the itself in Marilyn's

40:49

cheek in Marilyn's cheek. could have

40:51

been disfigured, but she wasn't. she wasn't.

40:53

might be tempted to say she got off lightly, she but

40:55

that's not the case. but that's not The cheerful The

40:57

woman she once was no longer exists. was

40:59

no longer She talks about that young

41:01

woman that danced, laughed and crossed Europe with

41:04

a backpack with a whose skin she had loved

41:06

to live had if she were a ghost. if she

41:08

were a ghost. She was fired from her new

41:10

dream job. job. Her Her relationship fell apart, apart.

41:12

she returned to live with her parents,

41:14

her life Her life shrank. She's now

41:16

unemployed, Insomniak. Afraid. She afraid. at

41:19

the She jumps at the slightest noise.

41:21

She's always checking the emergency exit. And what's

41:23

more, more, nobody cares about what she's

41:25

been through. through? So you were a victim of the

41:27

the attacks. you you at the batticle? No? On

41:29

the on the then? No? At the Stadt

41:31

de France? Was there a bombing at Was

41:33

there a bombing at the Stade de Oh, I had I had no

41:35

idea. To make sure she To make sure she

41:37

remembers what everyone else forgets, Marilyn carries

41:39

around with her a small plastic tube

41:41

containing the 18mm nut that was removed

41:44

from her cheek. from her cheek. before

41:46

the court the court, tube from her bag

41:48

tube the nut from the tube and says from

41:50

the I'll show it to you, but I'm keeping it. but

41:52

I'm keeping it. she puts it back in her

41:54

bag. in her bag. 250 other other testimonies

41:56

will follow and obliterate her own.

41:59

her own. forget Marilyn

42:01

as she walked away

42:04

alone. So graceful and

42:06

so sad with her

42:08

nut in his little

42:11

tube. What that seems

42:13

to underscore is. the

42:17

fact, and it's a cliche which

42:19

you deal with in the book,

42:21

and which in fact, I think

42:23

one of the accused even tries

42:25

to raise at a moment this

42:27

idea that what doesn't kill you

42:29

makes you stronger. And we see

42:32

a lot of strength from the

42:34

plaintiffs, a lot of strength, and

42:36

a lot of heroism in the

42:38

way they have rebuilt their lives,

42:40

but never the sense that what

42:42

happened to them had made them

42:44

stronger. I

42:48

never heard that. The horrible

42:51

thing is that thing was

42:53

said, told to them by

42:56

Salab, the slam, who is

42:58

the, you know, the main,

43:00

the only one among the

43:03

accused who he didn't kill,

43:05

that he was supposed to

43:08

be part of the commando,

43:10

who was supposed to kill,

43:13

who was supposed to kill.

43:15

and who and the other

43:18

one killed and were killed

43:20

and he didn't kill because

43:22

at the last moment he

43:25

said that the belt with

43:27

with the explosive either didn't

43:30

work or did he didn't

43:32

decide what didn't want to

43:35

use it's it's not clear

43:37

at all that He was

43:39

being the survivor of the

43:42

commando, he was the important,

43:44

the important character among the

43:47

accused and so everyone was

43:49

very interested about what Salad

43:52

Islam thinks, what's about Salad

43:54

Islam feels and says. remember.

43:56

I'm here in France, but

43:59

I see it's a pleasantry

44:01

as a rule. We have

44:04

had an important, only a

44:06

few important, only a few

44:09

important, only a few important,

44:11

a chapeau, book outro-grove, pouly,

44:14

d'is-de-de-de-de-ke-el-can, and a no-travokat-de-de-de-de-de-you-t, People

44:16

said that they were making

44:18

him wear a hat that

44:21

was far too big for

44:23

him and one of the

44:26

lawyers said, well, since his

44:28

head is swelling as he

44:31

speaks. And so by the

44:33

end of the trial, well,

44:35

he addressed to the plaintiffs,

44:38

he tried to do something,

44:40

maybe it was sincere, it

44:43

was well intentioned that it

44:45

was. He said, well, that

44:48

he was terribly sorry for

44:50

the suffering, but that he

44:52

was sure that it made

44:55

them the better persons than

44:57

the... in the mouth, in

45:00

the lips of Salab, the

45:02

Islam, the argument, the idea,

45:05

well, what doesn't kill us

45:07

makes us stronger, was a

45:09

bit displaced. And it was

45:12

received like this. And what

45:14

it also seems to do

45:17

is a point which comes

45:19

up several times in the

45:22

book. And I think in

45:24

a sense both benefits the

45:27

book and makes it the

45:29

book it is is you

45:31

write the trial prevents the

45:34

long view. So concerning you

45:36

know what what the historical

45:39

conditions that led to the

45:41

development of jihadism and that

45:44

led to these attacks the.

45:46

the wider context of the

45:48

war in Syria, the West's

45:51

attacks in the Middle East,

45:53

all these kind of things,

45:56

in a sense, when we'll

45:58

come onto the defense in

46:01

a minute, but they was

46:03

kind of pushed out. the

46:05

context of the trial. Yeah,

46:08

the same salab this lamb

46:10

who said this horrible stupidity

46:13

that I quoted. I think

46:15

out of goodwill, but well,

46:18

voila. But he said something

46:20

else, which was surprisingly interesting.

46:23

He said, I try

46:25

to quote it precisely,

46:28

he says, you people,

46:30

you judges, when you

46:32

talk about us jihadists,

46:34

It's as if you

46:37

were reading only the

46:39

last page of a

46:41

book. You should have

46:44

read the whole book.

46:46

And this was, the

46:48

business seemed to me,

46:50

I didn't know where

46:53

it took this, but

46:55

it's very profaned and

46:57

you count. Well, it's

46:59

something. It's really something.

47:02

And I have

47:04

been thinking, I

47:06

have some, I

47:08

really constantly add

47:11

this idea in

47:13

mind. I think

47:15

there was a

47:17

real attempt from

47:19

the, during this,

47:21

this trial to

47:26

Well, at least to

47:28

read a summary of

47:31

the whole book, there

47:33

were interventions of historians,

47:35

of specialists, of geodes,

47:38

which were good, which

47:40

were really clever, smart

47:43

and clear, and it

47:45

was very useful, I

47:47

think. But, well, the...

47:50

a trial is not

47:52

a place for writing

47:55

history but it's not

47:57

that it was part

47:59

of the you know

48:02

the the different approaches,

48:04

exactly like, you know,

48:07

psychiatrists, as psychiatric experts,

48:09

you say something about

48:11

the accused, it was,

48:14

there was also this

48:16

historical dimension that was,

48:19

which was about the

48:21

story of Arab countries

48:23

and people during the

48:26

last century or even

48:28

more. You

48:31

know, we were not at

48:33

the university for this, but

48:35

there was an attempt to

48:38

do that. As you can

48:40

see, I am extremely positive

48:42

regarding this, the way this

48:44

trial took place. And one

48:46

of the ways of this

48:48

history, another way this history

48:51

was kind of tried, they

48:53

tried to bring it into

48:55

it was through the use

48:57

of this technique I suppose,

48:59

which I had not come

49:01

across before, but which is

49:04

very much linked to the

49:06

Klaus-Barbie trial, this idea of

49:08

the class of rupture. So

49:10

this is this idea of

49:12

in some ways, you know,

49:14

recontextualizing the attacks almost as

49:17

I guess. an act of

49:19

war rather than an act

49:21

of terrorism. I must explain

49:23

for maybe that during the

49:25

trial of Klaus Barbier who

49:27

was a senior officer of

49:30

the Gestapo in Leon and

49:32

known as the Boucher de

49:34

Leon, which are of Leon

49:36

who has a... And who

49:38

was captured in Bolivia, I

49:41

think, by search Glasgow in

49:43

a concerned, I think in

49:45

the late 80s. Well, the

49:47

trial of Klaus Barbier was

49:49

really presented exactly like this,

49:51

like a pro se policitor.

49:54

It was not only the

49:56

process of this German officer,

49:58

but also the paucet. for

50:01

the memory, for the

50:03

for the for France

50:06

to understand something of

50:08

its past. And there

50:10

was the, the, come

50:13

on the level card,

50:15

the lawyer, the lawyer

50:17

of Klaus Barbie, was

50:20

the very famous and

50:22

notorious Jacques Vergesz, who,

50:24

uh, Verres was a

50:27

very, uh, courageous militant

50:29

militant in the war

50:32

of Algeria on the

50:34

side of the Algerian

50:36

independence. He was a

50:39

very, you know, a

50:41

great fighter in the

50:43

fight, the anti-colonialist church,

50:46

fight. And He developed,

50:48

and from this, from

50:50

this base camp, if

50:53

I can say, he

50:55

became the lawyer of

50:57

all the ex-nases and

51:00

he was the, he

51:02

defended Pol Pot in

51:05

Cambodia, of all the

51:07

dictators. It's a very

51:09

fascinating character. There is

51:12

an extraordinary film about

51:14

him that was made

51:16

by Barbets Hrodier, which

51:19

is called La Vocad,

51:21

La Terre, and I

51:23

advise you to watch

51:26

it if you can.

51:28

I certainly you can't

51:30

find on any platform

51:33

on there. And so

51:35

this is to say

51:37

that. Verges, there were

51:40

50 lawyers who represented

51:42

the plaintiffs, the families

51:45

of the victims, the

51:47

descendants, and he was

51:49

alone one against 50

51:52

of them. The defendant

51:54

of Barbi. And he

51:56

developed the idea of

51:59

what he called the

52:01

defense of rupture, defense

52:03

of rupture. which consisted

52:06

to say, okay, we

52:08

are you. are the

52:10

French state. You are

52:13

the French state. You

52:15

decide to accuse and

52:18

to judge Mr. Barbier

52:20

for torturing French resistance

52:22

in Leon. OK, he

52:25

did. that you the

52:27

French army tortured Algerian

52:29

rebels during the Algerian

52:32

war if you okay

52:34

if you if you

52:36

tell me about what

52:39

Barbie did in Leon

52:41

I shall always answer

52:43

you what the French

52:46

army did in the

52:48

in Algeria which is

52:51

in a way But

52:53

you can also say

52:55

that the fact that

52:58

the French army tortured

53:00

Algerian rebels was not

53:02

a reason not to

53:05

judge Klaus Barbi, but

53:07

there was always. in

53:09

what said the accused

53:12

of the trial, the

53:14

idea that to consider

53:16

themselves not as terrorists,

53:19

but I as a

53:21

courageous resistance against, you

53:24

know, the American order,

53:26

something against the They

53:28

say, well, they see

53:31

what the Americans did

53:33

to our friends in

53:35

Iraq or something like

53:38

that, which is, says

53:40

the scupa, and the...

53:43

There was also this question

53:45

which was the Alarier de

53:47

la de la de la

53:49

the which is well which

53:51

is very very great. It's

53:53

a group problem. was important,

53:55

exactly as you say, that

53:57

things be said. Yeah, and

53:59

I think for me, when

54:02

I was reading, it felt

54:04

like this was, it was

54:06

very important that this be

54:08

said in the trial. It

54:10

wasn't going to have an

54:12

effect on, there was no

54:14

chance that the trial was

54:16

going to be refrained, but

54:18

it felt important that it

54:20

be said. And I think

54:22

it's one of the most

54:24

fascinating episodes in a sense

54:26

in the book, is with

54:28

this man known as, well

54:30

his name, is Patrick Jardan.

54:32

And Patrick Jardan was the

54:34

father of one of the

54:36

victims. And you've talked a

54:38

lot about the nobility expressed

54:40

by the victims and their

54:42

families and this kind of

54:44

benevolence. And he was quite

54:46

the opposite. In fact, he

54:49

kind of got up on

54:51

to the stage and he

54:53

said, you describe him as

54:55

a massive, graceless man who

54:57

starts by congratulating the crime

54:59

brigade commander for killing that

55:01

scum Sami, Amimur. And then

55:03

he said, people say I'm

55:05

full of hatred, your honor,

55:07

and it's true, I do

55:09

hate. And what discussed me,

55:11

most of the parents of

55:13

the victims who don't. and

55:15

it felt again in an

55:17

account that takes everything in

55:19

and I think you even

55:21

you even say this at

55:23

like it was important for

55:25

you to hear this. In

55:27

fact in fact there was

55:29

the the trial was very

55:31

I had a lot of

55:33

dignity always. The victims, the

55:36

parents, the family of the

55:38

victims, they also, most of

55:40

them, have great dignity. They

55:42

had very, something very noble,

55:44

which is not, they didn't

55:46

forgive. But they had, they

55:48

tried to understand, there was

55:50

this, this, this, well, there

55:52

was a young man whose

55:54

wife had been killed on

55:56

the terrace, who wrote a

55:58

book which called von Neuripana

56:00

and you will not have

56:02

my hate. And that was

56:04

a bit, here I can

56:06

be, a bit, a very

56:08

bit, ironic. It was the

56:10

mantra of the, of the,

56:12

of the, of the trial,

56:14

the vonuripana and you will

56:16

not have my hate. And

56:18

so, I admire this. But

56:22

I think that it was

56:24

absolutely necessary to hear a

56:26

man who was not that

56:28

noble, who was not that

56:30

great elevation of soul, and

56:33

who said, well, do you

56:35

kill this guy who killed

56:37

my my daughter? May I

56:39

hate them? I want them

56:41

to burn in hell. I

56:43

want the... I think, well,

56:46

I think if you killed

56:48

my daughter, I would think

56:50

this, think the same thing,

56:52

not only, thank you, but

56:54

not only, and at least

56:56

it was necessary that this

56:59

word be heard also, that

57:01

there was an exception to

57:03

this ocean of noble feelings.

57:06

I could talk to you about

57:08

this book for hours. One thing

57:10

I would like to finish on,

57:12

I guess, is leaving the book

57:15

behind or leaving the trial behind

57:17

to begin with. Now there's this

57:19

wonderful scene towards the end of

57:21

the book that takes place in

57:23

the Lidupale, the cafe that's a

57:25

stone's throw from here. And you

57:28

describe that evening, so this is

57:30

once a trial has finished, once

57:32

the verdicts have been handed down,

57:34

once the lawyers have taken off

57:36

their robes that are in their

57:38

civilian clothes. And you describe it

57:41

as the most extraordinary evening you've

57:43

ever spent or probably will ever

57:45

spend in your life. That was

57:47

very strange because nothing was planned

57:49

that after the verdict, well, all

57:51

of us, you know, it was

57:54

like also like a... The fondun

57:56

collinidvacos, the end of where you

57:58

have been living together for all

58:00

these... month and you know it

58:02

was not you'll not leave each

58:05

other like this so we do

58:07

what people usually do that well

58:09

we go and have a drink

58:11

before we're all exhausted it was

58:13

emotionally extremely demanding even the the

58:15

the the the the the the

58:18

the the waiting for the verdict

58:20

so that so we all most

58:23

many of us went to

58:25

this varsity de Paler who

58:28

is as you say very

58:30

close and in fact there

58:32

were a lot of us

58:34

and we began to to

58:38

have drinks and in fact

58:40

it lasted until four or

58:42

five in the morning and

58:44

there was a mix of

58:46

there were journalists lawyers battle

58:48

so some of the plaintiffs

58:50

some of them and and

58:53

who were all we all

58:55

got drunk I think and

58:57

there was something even

59:02

me, there was

59:04

a, we felt

59:07

relieved, we felt

59:09

sad to separate,

59:11

we felt very,

59:14

there was something

59:16

very fraternity or

59:19

something very, and

59:21

I'm not good,

59:23

I'm not I

59:28

tell it better in the book

59:30

than I am able to tell

59:32

with my poor English, but I'm

59:35

not very lyrical about that. But

59:37

that was really one of the

59:39

most incredible human gathering that I

59:42

ever attended and the most incredible

59:44

evening I ever took part. I

59:47

suppose now it's been it's been

59:49

two years since a book came

59:51

out in in French. You've had

59:54

some time to put some space

59:56

between between you the trial. So

59:58

I suppose my final question is

1:00:01

a two-pronged one. At the beginning

1:00:03

of the book, you're talking about

1:00:06

the desire to do this in

1:00:08

the first place. And you say,

1:00:10

a writer who no one has

1:00:13

asked to do this, and who,

1:00:15

as the Lakenian psychoanalysts say, is

1:00:18

only authorized by his desire, a

1:00:20

strange desire, this one. So I'm

1:00:22

curious to know if you've understood

1:00:25

that desire a little bit more

1:00:27

since then why you undertook this

1:00:29

project. And in addition to that,

1:00:32

as a writer, Do

1:00:35

you feel changed by this

1:00:38

experience? Understanding the desire and

1:00:40

the, it's very simple, I

1:00:43

knew it from the beginning,

1:00:45

I'm interested in law, I

1:00:48

am interested in crime, and

1:00:50

I am interested in religion,

1:00:53

and in the, you know,

1:00:55

the pathology commutations of religion,

1:00:58

so and the idea of

1:01:00

making a big journalistic commitment,

1:01:03

I liked it. So no,

1:01:05

I knew exactly why I

1:01:08

wanted to do that. That,

1:01:10

as I think maybe you

1:01:13

understand, you understood, things were

1:01:15

really different from what I

1:01:18

have expected, and there was

1:01:20

this strange and And

1:01:23

in a way,

1:01:26

a life-changing human

1:01:28

experience, of which

1:01:30

the book tries

1:01:32

to be the

1:01:34

testimony. But yes,

1:01:36

it changed something

1:01:38

for me. I

1:01:40

can't say exactly

1:01:42

what. At least

1:01:44

I've witnessed something

1:01:46

about humanity. that

1:01:49

I was not aware of and that

1:01:52

I tried to give to to to

1:01:54

write it as well. I can, as

1:01:56

I can. But no, it was, I

1:01:59

knew it was I

1:02:01

knew what I

1:02:03

wanted to do. I

1:02:05

I did I was in front

1:02:08

of something absolutely

1:02:10

different. different.

1:02:14

I think in think in fact it all

1:02:16

people to parting it. And it. the book will change I

1:02:18

think the book will change readers we're

1:02:20

they the it of the Well, we're going

1:02:22

to finish and the formal part of

1:02:24

the conversation. Please do stick around

1:02:26

and have a drink with us. Continue

1:02:28

the conversation with Emmanuel will be signing

1:02:30

in the back there. Continue the

1:02:32

conversation with each other. with All that

1:02:35

remains for you to say it's been

1:02:37

a great, great been a This is

1:02:39

a conversation honor, wanted to have for

1:02:41

years. wanted to have so I'm delighted it's

1:02:43

finally been able to been able to So

1:02:45

please join me one more time in

1:02:47

saying a great big a you to

1:02:49

you to you Adam. Thank you, Adam. you very

1:02:51

much. Thank

1:02:58

you for listening to the Shakespeare Shakespearean Company

1:03:00

podcast. If you've enjoyed this conversation, it would

1:03:02

be great if you could help us

1:03:05

spread the word by reviewing or rating

1:03:07

us in your us app or just by

1:03:09

sending the link to your friends. to your

1:03:11

And don't forget, if you'd like even

1:03:13

more from Shakespeare and Company, you can

1:03:15

subscribe now through Apple now through Apple for

1:03:17

just three for month. 3 euro a month. to both

1:03:19

are available in the show notes to

1:03:22

this episode. this episode. Production of this podcast

1:03:24

is all done is all here at Shakespeare

1:03:26

at Shakespeare and All music is by Alex is

1:03:28

by whose album, whose album Play is available to

1:03:30

buy or stream wherever you listen. wherever

1:03:32

We'll be back soon. soon. Until then, take

1:03:34

care thanks thanks again for listening.

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From The Podcast

The Shakespeare and Company Interview

Discover your next favourite book, or take a deep dive into the mind of an author you love, with The Shakespeare and Company Interview podcast.Long-form interviews with internationally acclaimed authors, recorded from our bookshop in the heart of Paris. Hosted by S&Co Literary Director, Adam Biles.Discover all our upcoming events here.If you enjoy these conversations, you can order The Shakespeare and Company Book of Interviews here.Past guests include: Ottessa Moshfegh, Ian McEwan, Ali Smith, Har Kunzru, Rachel Kushner, Katie Kitamura, Elif Shafak, Claire-Louiose Bennett, Leïla Simoni, Ian Dunt, David Runciman, Richard Powers, Eimear McBride, Armando Iannucci, Lauren Grodd, Lauren Elkin, Recebcca Solnit, John Berger, Hollie McNish, Michael Pedersen, Rob Doyle, Philippe Sands, George Saunders, Edouard Louis, Rachel Cusk, Preti Taneja, Alejandro Zambra, DBC Pierre, Meg Mason, Sandra Newman, David Simon, Joshua Cohen, Geoff Dyer, David Wallce-Wells, Emul Saint-John Mandel, Mohsin Hamid, Tess Gunty, A.M. Homes, John Higgs, Miriam Toews, Kamila Shamsie, Annie Ernaux, William Boyd, David Keenan, Jonathan Coe, Coco Mellors, Tom Mustill, Jeanette Winterson, Sarah Churchwell, Katy Hessel, Don Paterson, Elizabeth McCracken, Meena Kandasamy, Aleksandar Hemon, Catherine Lacey, Xiaolu Guo, M. John Harrison, Dolly Adderton, Hernan Diaz, Kathryn Scanlan, Ben Lerner, Isabel Waidner, Nick Laird, Adam Thirlwell, Mark O'Connell, Marie Darrieussecq, Jo Ann Beard, C Pam Zhang, Naomi Klein...and many, many more. Get bonus content on Patreon Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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