Clay Jenkinson and the historian Joseph Ellis have a wide-ranging conversation beginning with Jefferson’s failing reputation, and ending with both of them sharing their thoughts on the future. They also discuss our recent elections and the need for young and vibrant new leaders in America.

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Books and articles mentioned on this episode include: "Hear what the founders are saying," an op-ed in the Los Angeles Times by Joseph Ellis, and Passionate Sage by Joseph Ellis from W. W. Norton

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Thomas Jefferson is interpreted and portrayed by Clay S. Jenkinson.