0:31

Welcome to the Thoughts and Rants of a Behavior

0:33

Scientist show hosted by

0:36

Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestselling

0:38

author , dr Pauly . Okay

0:43

, welcome back to the Thoughts and Rants of a Behavior

0:45

Scientist podcast . I'm your host , dr Pauly

0:48

, and I am here with my

0:50

new and , I think , growing good

0:52

friend , stephanie Walden . Stephanie

0:54

, how are you doing today ?

0:56

I'm doing pretty good , pauly , how are you ?

0:58

I'm doing good . I'm good . I'm grateful that you've come

1:00

on the podcast to chat with me Now . Stephanie

1:02

and I met through Instagram . I think

1:04

I might have posted something . You might have left some feedback

1:06

on it , or maybe it was vice versa . I don't really remember how

1:08

it went , but it turns out that you actually

1:11

you actually went to FIT and

1:13

I think you just graduated with your master's

1:15

in ABA . But you also have

1:17

a background . You got your bachelor's in ABA

1:19

, which is pretty cool , man , because my

1:22

background in ABA I was out

1:24

of field Back

1:26

when I took my original coursework was in

1:28

2003 , and

1:30

it was when you didn't have to take it at the university

1:32

level . Now , I had an amazing time

1:35

at Behavior Analysis Inc in Sunrise

1:37

, Florida . It was a really good program . It was designed

1:39

at the level of a graduate program , but it was just two courses

1:41

and I was a BCA BA for

1:43

, like you know , almost 12

1:46

years . I was going to let the whole thing drop and I

1:49

decided to carry on with it , but anyway

1:52

, so it turns out , what

1:54

kind of turned me on to some of the stuff that you're doing

1:57

is that you do a lot of stuff

1:59

with RBTs and I could

2:01

see through some of your posts , like your passion

2:03

about it , and

2:05

you know , we chatted offline for a

2:07

while about it and I was like , man , let's get online

2:09

and talk about this , because RBTs are

2:12

our front line warriors

2:15

. They're out there doing lots of stuff and

2:17

, as you and I both know and this is the

2:19

point of jumping this podcast

2:21

, man they're

2:23

being just kind of dropped in the ring like

2:25

my fighters that have not had

2:27

any fight training before and they're

2:29

kind of taking a beating . Have

2:31

you seen that ? Because , I mean , you've been an RBT

2:34

for many years and you've trained RBT's . What's

2:36

been your experience with , first of all , being

2:38

an RBT ? Why don't we start there ?

2:40

So I'm actually I consider

2:43

myself a baby in this field Only

2:45

been in it for four years as an RBT

2:47

, and

2:50

you know , as I you know , aba

2:53

is my passion . As I progressed through

2:55

my studies and everything like , I really

2:58

just loved what I was doing

3:00

. So I was very self-motivated

3:03

in terms of finding

3:05

research and making

3:07

sure that I was perfecting , you know

3:09

, procedures and following those operational

3:11

definitions . I was really , really into it

3:13

, so kind of a self-starter

3:16

when it comes to that . In

3:19

time I grew into roles

3:21

where I was mentoring other RBTs

3:23

and one of my most

3:26

recent positions was training

3:28

manager at the company that I was at

3:31

. From there , I remember

3:35

coming in amazing company , amazing

3:37

people , but one of the

3:40

complaints that I had was very

3:42

, very straightforward

3:44

told them I'm not

3:47

seeing a lot of great

3:49

training going on . I think it was

3:51

my first week and

3:53

I asked to kind of chat with the clinical

3:55

director .

3:57

Well , hold on . Can you pause there and make a note

3:59

on that ? I don't want to forget to come back to that

4:01

, all right , because I think it might be

4:03

important for people to understand . What did

4:05

you expect when you came in there

4:07

? Maybe you had no expectations , you didn't know

4:09

, or were you like ? All right , I'm a new

4:11

RBT , I'm going to come in here and here's what I'm

4:14

going to get . Was there a certain level of expectations

4:16

of what you thought you would be provided

4:18

, compared to what you're about to tell us that you were

4:20

provided ?

4:22

Yeah . So up until

4:24

that point my expectations were

4:26

not very high , only because

4:28

I had already seen how

4:31

training had gone in other companies

4:33

what

4:35

we call overlap trainings , when you jump in

4:37

with another RBT and they're teaching

4:39

you the client information and just

4:41

modeling . I didn't see a lot of that happening

4:44

in other corporations . So

4:47

coming into this one , I really didn't know what

4:49

to expect . I kind of expected

4:51

the same and

4:54

I have to say , like my overlaps

4:56

trying to learn about other you know

4:58

the clients that I was going to be working with , they

5:01

were not

5:03

as effective as I would have hoped . Now

5:07

I was very lucky actually that I had

5:09

a phenomenal mentor . You

5:12

know I have to give her a shout out . Chris

5:14

Molfino is her name . She

5:17

actually sat there . She

5:19

gave me the rationale for everything . I'm

5:21

really big on rationale A

5:24

lot of BST , a lot of

5:26

modeling , a lot of supervision

5:28

. I think I had like some crazy

5:30

50% supervision or

5:32

something really high . So

5:34

I was lucky to have that

5:36

, that mentorship . But

5:38

overall I was seeing like the training itself

5:41

was not very effective . I

5:44

wasn't seeing a lot of you know

5:47

BST . I wasn't seeing

5:49

a lot of sitting down and let's

5:51

read these programs and all the things that we need

5:53

to be equipped with in order to come in and

5:56

these clients . So

5:58

you know , I'm

6:01

kind of direct when it comes to things

6:03

like that , of course , respectfully

6:05

. And I did mention

6:08

like hey , I think this could be

6:10

better , this could be different , this

6:12

could be different , and you

6:15

know such a great leadership team that

6:17

eventually they gave

6:19

me the training manager position .

6:30

I kind of worked my way up , helping the current training manager and then finally jumping into

6:32

the position myself . Wait , so at this organization then ? Because if

6:35

we went back and don't name organizations

6:37

, but , like in your career

6:39

, you had been to other organizations ? Because I see there

6:42

seems to be two reasons

6:44

why this happens . I mean , if you

6:47

just look at it through a performance lens , right , they're

6:59

not , it's either I can't . they don't know what they're supposed to do with RBTs , which is always hard

7:01

for me to believe , you know , or they're not motivated to do it , they just want to drop RBTs in there so

7:03

they can start getting paid Right and so . But it seems like your organization was like

7:05

, until you kind of brought it to their attention

7:07

, maybe they thought things were better than

7:09

they were , and then you shone

7:11

a light on it and then they said , well , hey , that

7:13

sounds good , let's

7:19

improve .

7:19

In fact , you're doing so well with it . Let's let's put you in charge in it . Would that be

7:21

fair to say ? Yeah , that's pretty fair to say . I mean , um , it was , uh , definitely much

7:23

better than other places that I had been in

7:26

well , can you ?

7:27

can you ? Because I want to hear , and

7:29

maybe it's other places or other place you're

7:31

heard of , right , so we're not going to say they're necessarily the place you're at

7:33

or other place you're heard of , right , so we're not gonna say

7:36

they're necessarily the place you're at or other place , right . But from what you know

7:38

of , uh , you know what , what ? What has been

7:40

like the , the norm , what have you

7:42

seen that you know this isn't so

7:44

great for the field , this isn't so great for the rbts

7:46

. Can you give me some examples of , like , some

7:48

of the standards , of the low standards that you've seen

7:51

out there ?

7:51

yeah , um , for for starters it's

7:54

um know

7:56

, once you walk in with that RBT credential

7:58

, it's almost like you're expected

8:00

to know everything already . I don't need to . You know , you

8:02

took your 40 hour course . You

8:04

come in here , you know what you're doing , you know what

8:06

this means , you know what that means do

8:09

the job , and very

8:12

little checking in

8:14

to see like just how well they can really

8:16

do the job , Because different companies that train

8:18

these RBTs have different standards

8:20

of how

8:23

well they want them to do this . I

8:27

think it's all over the place .

8:29

So , number one , they don't even have most

8:32

places , or too often we don't

8:34

want to overgeneralize , too often we're not

8:36

bringing in people and it's not just RBTs

8:38

, behavior analysts and other people , right , we don't have any

8:40

measure of competency . We don't even

8:42

know what level . They are right , so they're like all right , you took

8:44

the 40 hours and so you should be

8:46

able to do the job , and you and I both know damn

8:48

well that 40 hours is

8:50

not even dropping the bucket of what it requires

8:52

to do the job of an RBT Absolutely not even dropping the bucket of

8:54

what it requires to do the job of an RBT ?

8:56

Absolutely not . Yeah , so it's a lot of just dropping people

8:58

in . And again , this is

9:00

in general like just dropping people in into

9:02

these sessions . And here's your client

9:05

, here's your tablet . You know , build

9:07

report , take your data and moving

9:09

along .

9:13

And when they're struggling , then what happens ? I mean , I'm not talking about the place that you went

9:15

right and how you did something differently , but RBTs

9:18

are struggling .

9:21

What is the norm

9:23

that you've experienced ? From

9:30

a lot of conversations I've had with many different RBTs and I've , you know , built rapport with dozens

9:32

and dozens of RBTs the main thing they say is

9:34

that they never really felt supported

9:36

. They never felt like um

9:38

, you know , like when asking

9:41

a question about a behavior intervention

9:43

plan , how to execute it . Well

9:45

, it's written down for you . You should be able

9:47

to read it and understand it . So there

9:49

was not a lot of um empathizing

9:52

of you know this may not be very easily

9:55

understood . You

10:04

know I've heard horror stories of RBTs getting like physically injured and the BCBA was

10:06

not around . Just the lack of support and

10:08

feeling undervalued is what I heard

10:11

from a lot of

10:14

these RBTs and what do you think is at the root of that

10:17

?

10:18

What do you ? You know , if you could , based

10:20

on your experience , what you've seen like , why would a BCBA

10:23

do that to the RBT

10:25

? What do you think ?

10:27

Honestly , I think that it

10:30

could be just even grad school courses

10:32

not being focused on supervision

10:35

, just even grad school courses not being

10:37

focused on supervision . One

10:42

thing I did love about FIT is that you know they put a very heavy emphasis on supervision and what

10:45

you're going to need to do for your RBTs and how you're going to need to support

10:47

them . I think that

10:49

gave me a big

10:51

foundation for how I was

10:53

conducting my own RBT trainings . As

10:56

an RBT , I was already

10:58

looking at everything from a

11:00

behavior analyst lens , like I was already

11:02

acting as if I were a BCBA

11:05

, and that's something that when

11:08

I was trained by other people when I was at different companies

11:10

, I wasn't getting that

11:12

. They were just kind of going

11:14

through the motions and it was just , you

11:16

know , the job didn't seem to be

11:18

very reinforcing for them . So

11:21

it's just to me it's

11:23

BCBAs not having

11:25

you know . And again , I've met some

11:28

amazing BCBAs . You know , most

11:30

recently , all the BCBAs that I've

11:32

dealt with have been absolutely phenomenal

11:34

. But in general

11:36

, I think when I would train

11:39

someone new and I actually would ask them like you know

11:41

, how has your experience been before coming

11:43

here ? And

11:45

they would tell me all these horror stories and you

11:48

know , I barely made my supervision

11:50

last month and my BCBA

11:52

doesn't respond to my emails or just different things

11:54

. That showed that they were just kind

11:56

of left on their own and

11:59

I was finding that I

12:01

was reviewing like a lot of basic

12:04

principles that you need to come in here . Yes , you

12:06

have your credential , but I'm still

12:08

going to say , you know , I'm going to reteach it anyways

12:10

, just to make sure that you know it . And

12:14

it was surprising how many were like wow , you know

12:16

, I never knew that . Or

12:19

oh , wait a minute

12:21

, what is stimulus control ? It's just

12:23

like little things like that . That was just like , wow

12:26

, where did you come from , you know ? So

12:30

I think you

12:32

know the BCBAs out there , some

12:35

BCBAs out there just don't have a very

12:37

strong , I

12:39

don't know how to put it . The

12:41

skill of being able to supervise

12:44

is something that is not , you

12:46

know , maybe it was not emphasized in their training

12:48

.

12:49

I would listen there's there's

12:51

zero doubt about that ? I don't . This

12:53

is my personal belief . I'm sure there's some , you

12:55

know cons to what I'm saying , but I see nothing

12:58

but pros . I

13:00

think we should . I

13:02

think we should , I think everybody should be trained in organizational

13:05

behavior management . And the reason why is

13:07

because when you start trying to get results through

13:09

the behavior of others , you are doing OBM

13:11

and that's everything , unless you're working one-on-one

13:14

with a learner . But even then , even

13:16

then , you're probably going to need let's say , you're in somebody's

13:18

home , you're probably going to need the parent to do something more

13:20

or less or differently to help support

13:22

the generalization of the behaviors . So

13:25

that is like where you shift to the OBM hat

13:27

on . Supervision falls under OBM , it's

13:29

a performance management approach , and

13:31

so I really think that everybody

13:34

should have this , and it sounds like you

13:36

got some good stuff in terms of I like that

13:38

. You got to put on like your BCBA hat

13:40

to think about how would you

13:42

manage an RBT , and that should

13:44

absolutely be happening . I think

13:46

that all this stuff should be happening through simulations and

13:49

all coursework , and I think that you know FIT

13:51

does , you know certainly has some great instructors

13:54

there . I went

13:56

to school . There as well , I

13:58

know some of the folks are great people , but I think in

14:01

general , all universities need

14:03

to embed some robust simulations

14:05

into their programming so

14:07

when behavior analysts come out they're

14:10

ready to perform . And in

14:12

my world , in the fight world , in that part

14:14

of my life , our simulations

14:17

are sparring and you cannot expect somebody

14:19

to hit mitts or hit a bag

14:21

and then fight in the real fight

14:23

. You need to have simulations and this

14:25

is where you can learn safely and we

14:27

can do simulations or analog simulations , but

14:30

I mean right now , with gamification or virtual reality

14:32

, I mean you could literally be walking into a classroom and doing stuff you

14:34

know . Gamification or virtual reality , I mean you could literally be walking to

14:36

a classroom and doing stuff you know . But at a minimum we

14:38

can do some like performance-based scenarios where

14:41

you experience some of the consequences , like a

14:43

choose your journey thing , you know and

14:45

get the feedback and why . So you can learn that

14:47

. Hey , well , man , I screwed that up , the parent fired

14:49

me , you know , or whatever you know . There's

14:58

so many different things that we can do , but our , our folks are not coming into the field at any level prepared to meet

15:00

the demands , and it's not that they're not learning on the field , they're not learning through supervision if they've got

15:02

a super good supervisor , like you , but

15:04

that's rare because most people

15:06

are not being trained well enough to do it . So now we

15:09

kind of are people

15:11

are learning through trial and error , like I did and

15:13

I bet you did in many cases . So many

15:15

people I know and I think about if

15:17

, man , if I had better skill , knowledge and skills

15:19

because I'd gone through simulations and I

15:22

was , you know , understood so

15:24

many other facets of what it looks like in the real

15:26

world I'd learn how to consult better I

15:28

could have made such a bigger difference

15:30

. And , more important than that , maybe I did

15:32

some things that hurt people . I don't want to hurt people

15:34

, you know , but I and I was doing it out

15:36

of desiring to make a positive impact

15:38

. But you know , coming back to your point

15:41

, we just have to do a better job

15:43

preparing our people for the real world

15:45

. So , in including training

15:47

our supervisors better so they can

15:49

, you know people can have folks like your

15:51

supervisor was , you know , otherwise

15:54

it's . We have droves of people

15:56

not performing well and they're leaving . It's hurting the , it's

15:58

hurting our learners and our client base and

16:00

hurting the field , so you know um

16:03

yeah and you know that , um

16:05

, rbt turnover is just oh

16:07

, the rate is just out

16:09

.

16:09

It's just unbelievable . You

16:12

know , like , uh , like a revolving door of rTs

16:14

and you know

16:16

I boil that down to

16:19

insufficient training and insufficient

16:22

support . When you can do

16:24

your job really well , when you can walk

16:26

in there confident that you're

16:28

going to be helping this learner , that you're going

16:30

to be doing everything right , you're getting

16:32

all sorts of you know positive reinforcement

16:34

from your managers , your supervisors

16:37

. You know that

16:39

reinforcement from your managers and your supervisors , you know that is

16:41

reinforcing . You want to come back and you want to keep doing that

16:43

. But when you're struggling , because you're struggling with

16:45

even basic principles , or

16:47

you know you weren't taught with behavioral

16:49

skills training , where you're actually being going

16:52

through that process of making sure

16:54

that you're fluent in what you're

16:56

doing , you

16:58

get burned out . That's where the burnout comes

17:00

from , you know . And then in turn

17:02

the

17:08

client suffers . The client's not getting , you

17:10

know , quality care that they require with turnover rates . You know now

17:12

the BCBAs have to start from scratch with a whole

17:15

new RBT coming in and

17:17

they have to do the process all over and over and

17:19

it's just it's kind of a mess . You

17:21

know it's exhausting . So

17:24

I'm also sorry for the BCBAs

17:26

, who really are trying , you know

17:28

, they really are trying to support their staff

17:30

but for one reason or another

17:32

, that turnover rate makes

17:35

them , you know , have to start over and

17:37

that burns them out as well , you know . So it's

17:39

a it's an overall problem for

17:42

everyone .

17:43

Yeah , I , you know , and , and

17:45

there just so many . There

17:47

are a number of people like CEOs that are , you

17:50

know , there there are some that I would just say

17:52

stay away from those organizations , you know . But

17:54

there are some that are like , really want to make it

17:56

a positive difference , but they

17:58

just don't know better . My

18:02

colleague Anika and I are working with somebody

18:04

one of our colleagues and

18:06

friends and client , christina

18:09

Morales , who's local to our area

18:11

, has , uh , man , she

18:13

has just embedded so many organizational

18:16

behavior management principles into her , um

18:18

, uh , into her company , like

18:20

building them on values from

18:22

the ground up and , in her case

18:24

, like she just she wanted to be better

18:26

. She didn't know how to be better and she needed a little bit

18:28

of coaching to support

18:30

her and she took the ball and run with it . Right now , she's done

18:32

some amazing things there , but the point being

18:35

that our , our , we have

18:37

to practice what we preach in

18:40

our field , and that is , we have to continue

18:42

to use the principles of behavior

18:44

, even with our employees when

18:46

we're in our leadership position or management position or

18:48

supervision or any of these positions

18:50

, and we forget about it , and I think

18:53

this is due to our coursework I'm

18:55

not saying all coursework , but I think a lot of coursework

18:57

, and I think this is due to our coursework . I'm not saying all coursework , but I

18:59

think a lot of coursework , because it's so focused at the molecular

19:01

level , it's so focused on working with you know people , persons with disabilities

19:03

that people forget about using the science

19:06

everywhere . Like to me , you should never take

19:08

your lens off If you're trying

19:10

to figure out how to understand the world

19:12

around you . You know and why people are doing what they're doing

19:15

and be the best for them , and you know , help

19:17

them . If that's what your value is , then

19:20

why would you ever take the lens off ?

19:22

Exactly , yeah , and it's kind of

19:25

, like I mentioned , like positive reinforcement

19:27

for RBTs . One thing that I used

19:29

to do at one of the companies I worked

19:32

with worked at was I

19:34

would leave little sticky notes , you

19:37

know , on different RBTs , you

19:39

know binders or their

19:41

lockers or something , and it was

19:43

just some words of affirmation

19:45

, it was just something that you

19:48

know , like , hey , I know this is hard , but

19:51

I know that no one can do it Like you

19:53

can do it , you know , and it was not

19:55

, um , I wasn't trying to be like patronizing

19:57

, I was being very sincere . You

20:00

know , this is one of the things

20:02

that we need to do with our

20:04

co workers in general is . You know ? I

20:06

remember one time I was in an interview

20:08

and they

20:11

asked me , like , how do you feel

20:13

about working with others ? And I

20:15

said , well , how

20:19

do you feel about working with others ? And I said , well , we are trained to build

20:21

rapport with our clients . Right , because the better our rapport and I don't

20:23

even like the word rapport , it's like building connections

20:26

. We want to build these connections with our clients

20:28

. We

20:30

need to do the same with our coworkers . You know

20:32

, like , overall , we all need to be on the same

20:34

team . You

20:37

know , like that whole cliche teamwork , team effort

20:39

and all that , but that's the only

20:41

way it's going to work . So

20:44

I treated people in

20:47

a way that I wanted to make these

20:49

connections . At one of the places

20:51

I worked for I had the nickname

20:54

of mom . I

20:56

would hear someone say hey , mom , I

20:58

need this , or I need help with this , or I

21:00

don't get this , and it's

21:03

just . I think it's just kind of like my

21:05

nurturing nature . Yeah , so

21:08

you know , but I think

21:10

oftentimes

21:12

some corporations treat RBTs

21:15

or BTs if they don't have that credential as

21:17

numbers . We need

21:20

this number to fill this slot , to fill

21:22

this time block , to get

21:24

this billable hour here , that

21:26

we forget that we have human beings

21:28

in front of us .

21:30

Well , even if they cared about the bottom line , I've

21:32

come across my . I've

21:35

had enough experiences with narcissistic

21:37

leadership , many years

21:39

of consulting and working and stuff

21:41

. And even if even

21:43

if you love attention , that's what you want to be

21:45

as a CEO , or you want to make money , that's your bottom

21:48

line you got to take care of your employees , no

21:50

matter what . You know what I mean . If you take care of their employees

21:52

, they're going to take care of you . I don't know

21:54

what could be clearer to me . I mean , every

21:56

time your employee leaves , it costs

21:58

money . It's costing , you know , 20%

22:01

of their salary , you know . So what is that ? What

22:03

do RVTs make these days ? I don't know , you know , but that's $5,000

22:05

, $6,000 , $7,000 , $8,000 . It's costing every

22:08

time they turn over and it's bankrupting

22:10

the organizational memory . And

22:13

certainly if you want to provide

22:15

good support to the

22:17

learners , the clients , that's hurting

22:19

, so it's going to hurt the bottom line . So if you

22:22

really want to produce some robust

22:24

business results , take care of your people . Build

22:26

your system on good organizational behavior

22:28

management principles , which means you need

22:30

to know what people's reinforcers are and

22:36

you've got to make sure you're getting value-added behavior in touch with positive reinforcement

22:38

. Your whole system should be designed on values from the ground up . It should

22:40

be deliberately designed to deliver positive reinforcement

22:43

for value-added behavior period . All the

22:45

principles are the same . We just chain performance together

22:47

to produce some sort of end result in these

22:50

organizations . But they just don't see it

22:52

. They see the quick fix , not

22:54

the quick win . They see I want to

22:56

make the quick buck , I want to make the quick buck , I want

22:58

to do this , you know . And now like shit rolls downhill

23:00

, you know . So they're putting pressure on the director , the director's

23:02

putting pressure on the BCBA . The BCBA

23:05

has gotten out too many clients and everybody's

23:07

trying to bill and there's like man , it's

23:09

just like we just have to be

23:11

better . We just have to be better .

23:13

Absolutely , and

23:19

you know , speaking of reinforcement with rbt's like , by the way , like the the rate for

23:21

an rbt I've seen anywhere from 13 to

23:23

27 an hour has been

23:25

, which I can .

23:27

I don't understand this because I know

23:29

some very legit people , right

23:31

, I know , like , and it's to me , I've

23:33

gone to seeing these organizations where , uh

23:36

, I like they're giving the , they're

23:38

giving the RBTs the most they can get

23:40

, right , and I said , you know what , just stick with it , because if

23:43

they leave because the grass is greener , there's no way it's greener

23:45

over there because there's something going on there . I'm

23:47

not going to say it's fraud . I'm not not going to say it's fraud . Something

23:50

is being sacrificed to give

23:52

that differential . You

23:58

know what I that differential ? You know I mean like and so , of course , if you're an rbt , like , why you're

24:00

not going to want to make 15 , 17 , 20 bucks an hour . We can

24:02

go down the street , make 27 an hour , but it at what

24:06

is the cost of that ? Where is that money coming from ?

24:08

I don't understand it that's what I don't understand

24:10

either . And , um , you know , I kind

24:12

of I was thinking about this . Um

24:15

, you know , last organization that I

24:17

left I was trying to find , like , how

24:19

does this problem get solved ? Because

24:21

one of the issues I

24:23

was seeing was RBTs

24:26

coming in and they were just venting

24:28

like I'm not going to make rent , I'm

24:30

not going to be able to pay my rent , and

24:33

it was just

24:35

like heartbreaking because you know , you have

24:37

those client cancellations . When you

24:39

have the client cancellations that

24:41

RBT doesn't have the work , they

24:43

don't get paid , they're

24:46

just sitting at home just like wondering , like do

24:48

I go work at the grocery store for two

24:50

dollars more and not have to deal with this ? At

24:52

least it's like a consistent full time job . So

24:56

that's where I'm actually stuck , polly , like how do

24:58

we solve this problem ? Like I , you

25:01

know , whenever I have any kind of feedback

25:04

about something that I see that is not

25:07

right or it's , you know , could be better , before

25:09

I approach you with that feedback , I'm

25:12

going to have a whole list

25:14

of solutions . You know , I

25:18

came to training like I had PowerPoints

25:21

with citations . It almost looked

25:23

like a grad school homework

25:25

assignment , you know , because I wanted to

25:27

show you know why this is going to

25:29

work , why doing it different is going

25:32

to be beneficial to everyone , and

25:35

just giving that rationale and giving that solution

25:38

. So I'm very solution based when it comes

25:40

to things . This in particular

25:42

, I was stuck . I'm like how

25:44

does this get fixed ? You know , do you talk

25:47

to parents about attendance , Do

25:49

you ? You know , I just I

25:52

don't know , and that's something that , like , I'm actively

25:54

going to work on finding out like what would

25:57

be a rational

25:59

solution to this problem .

26:00

I think there are contingencies that can be put in place

26:02

. I just don't remember what they were

26:05

because I was a COO at a company

26:07

and we had some of those issues . But

26:10

, like you know , there's like performance-based

26:13

pay , right . So you know , of course you

26:15

have a minimum amount of hours

26:17

that they need to serve to make their salary

26:19

, you know . And then you know you have

26:21

some bonuses for making you know X amount

26:23

of hours . But you also have contingencies for the parents

26:25

that way too , where they can save

26:28

money for showing up you

26:30

know X amount of times , or whatever . You know . So

26:33

we got to . You know , figure out what people's reinforcers are

26:35

. And

26:39

there was . So you gotta , we gotta . You know , figure out what people's reinforcers are . And there's also things like hey , if you're not going to be

26:41

able

27:45

to make it this much , then we're going . There's somebody else that's waiting in line . You know , we want to be able to make sure

27:47

that we have to stay solvent . We want to make sure that we are able to treat

27:49

the consumers . So you know , like , if you , if

27:51

you know you either still have to pay

27:54

, or you know there's a , there's a minimum amount

27:56

of pay for not coming you , you know that's all agreed up

27:58

up front and like listen , if you're providing

28:00

good service , they're not going to want to miss

28:02

for the most part you know what I mean Especially if they're going to lose

28:04

their spot or something along those lines

28:06

. So I don't know . It's been a while since I've

28:08

been in that part of it , but I think there

28:11

are definitely things that that

28:13

can occur up front with these contingencies

28:15

.

28:22

Yeah , yeah , that that , yeah , yeah that . Um , when you have parents , though , like don't

28:24

that , don't pay out of pocket , I think , um , you know , insurance covers everything , then that

28:26

becomes uh , you know , they're not really getting hit in the pockets

28:28

, for you know , he said , you're still gonna

28:30

have to pay even if you don't show up . Um

28:33

, so that's something that you know . I

28:35

don't know how they're not gonna want to lose their .

28:37

Yeah , I'm for those . Maybe it's like they don't want to lose their

28:39

place . You know not going to want to lose their . Yeah , I'm thinking for those . Maybe it's like they don't want to lose their place . You know they

28:41

don't want to lose the support , you know , and we

28:43

explain like , yeah , you know , it's kind of like an

28:46

agreement up front , like we have employees

28:48

and we have to stay solvent , you know . So there's

28:50

always going to be something . But I think if we can solve , like

28:52

you know , 80% of those problems

28:54

that are just going to be

28:56

like and I guess we stick to the policy

28:59

. But I mean , it is a big issue . I think some

29:01

companies have done better with

29:03

it than others . I would love to get somebody in there and talk

29:05

about the good program that they've had Again . It's been

29:07

so long since I've thought about that kind of stuff so

29:09

I don't want to do billing and everything .

29:12

Yeah and no

29:15

go ahead .

29:16

So do you think so , with those RBTs that

29:18

are unable to make the bills ? So

29:20

, because we were coming back to the $13 versus $27

29:23

an hour , I think , man , I think all RBTs

29:25

should be making $27 an hour . I

29:30

think it would be wonderful to pay their . It's a challenging

29:32

job . They are on the front line and taking

29:34

these beatings , some figuratively and literally

29:36

sometimes , which is , people

29:38

have no idea how challenging it can be with some

29:40

of these learners , especially

29:42

if they have physical aggression or self-injurious

29:45

behavior . It's very challenging for them . So

29:47

I mean , if they're not making the money , they're not getting

29:49

the hours , they're like screw this , I'm going to leave and I'm going to

29:51

go to , like you said , I'm going

29:53

to go to the grocery store , I'm

30:01

going to get a different job somewhere else , where becoming an Rbt should be a path to becoming

30:03

a bcba .

30:04

you know we should be trying to lift them up and grow them within the company , don't you think ? Yeah , I agree . And um

30:06

, I often ask that like , uh

30:08

, when I would train an rbt

30:10

and ask like , hey , you know what's , what's your end

30:12

goal here ? Are you gonna go into being

30:14

a bcba , especially the ones that have been doing it

30:16

for like three , four years ? You , you know , kind of like me

30:19

and

30:26

the response I usually got was like I don't think I could handle . You know BCBA . And I explained

30:28

to them well , you know , actually being a BCBA is probably easier

30:30

than being an RVT , because

30:34

someone else is going to be doing that direct care

30:36

and you can provide that support to them . And it

30:40

almost seems like it turns them away from the field

30:42

. And I've

30:45

seen people who finish grad

30:47

school for ABA and then

30:49

suddenly decide they

30:51

want to go into a completely different

30:53

field , like finance or something . And

30:55

this is not related to ABA , because

30:57

it just left such a sour taste in their mouth

31:00

from the experience and

31:02

it's just I don't know . I

31:06

think it really starts with you

31:09

know one thing that my mentor used to do all

31:11

the time she would always

31:13

check on me , but

31:15

she wasn't checking in on me

31:18

like are you doing your work , okay

31:20

, are you understanding this ? She would check on me , like are you doing your work , okay , are you understanding this ? She would

31:22

check on me , like how are

31:24

you doing stuff ? How

31:27

are you doing ? You know , I

31:29

don't want you to burn out . I'm here

31:31

if you want to talk about something unrelated

31:34

to work . Like you know , like she was

31:36

always willing to provide

31:40

that support . That was , you know , just , you're

31:42

more than an RBT

31:44

implementing these interventions

31:46

that I wrote , you know . So to

31:49

me that was very important and made me want

31:51

to learn more from her . And I

31:53

said to myself you know , when

31:55

I hire RBT's , if I get to that

31:57

point , I'm

32:00

going to make sure that I do the same thing . You know

32:02

, like remind them that this is

32:04

very difficult work

32:06

, uh , but you're a very valuable

32:09

part of this work . Like without you

32:11

as an RBT , like this

32:13

can't be done . You know there are BCBAs

32:16

who just go and do direct therapy and that's

32:18

it . But

32:20

if you're going to be working for another company , you're

32:22

going to have RBTs . And

32:25

so I learned through my journey

32:27

as an RBT and as a training manager

32:30

and , just you know , a student

32:32

analyst , what to do and what not

32:34

to do , but definitely

32:37

one of the things to do is to support

32:39

these RBTs , you know , even

32:41

at an emotional level , because it's

32:43

a very emotionally taxing

32:45

job .

32:47

Well , I mean , first of all , your learning curve

32:49

is like steep , you know

32:51

, given how long you've been in the field , you

32:54

certainly have , you know , learned

32:56

and done an awful lot in such

32:58

a short amount of time , but it's a testament to your

33:00

values . My

33:03

guess is , you know , whatever field

33:05

you went into , you would do something similar , because

33:07

it seems like you really care about people , and I respect that

33:09

. I mean the fact that that BCBA

33:12

came to you and I , you know , shout out to her

33:14

. Was that the one from the beginning that you mentioned

33:16

? That was mentioned .

33:17

Yeah , yeah , yeah , chris , my man .

33:19

Yeah , beginning

33:21

that you mentioned , that was yeah , yeah , yeah , chris , my yeah , chris . Uh , helping

33:23

you to feel safe and saying how are you doing ? I love that . Like , why don't we ? It should

33:25

happen so much more ? Uh

33:27

, you know , in in checking in , um

33:30

, one of the big things that

33:32

I talk about and we talk about in our trainings , uh

33:35

, in my books , is reciprocal feedback

33:37

. Um , you know , we give feedback

33:39

to help people to grow , but we

33:41

also have to look at their performance as feedback

33:44

for us , right ? So if they're not performing

33:46

to some standard , what do I need to do more , less or differently

33:48

? Right ? If that's the person I'm supporting , but

33:51

also checking in with them and getting feedback

33:53

, how am I doing for you , you know ? is there

33:55

something I can do ? How can I be better for you ? And I think

33:57

if people humbled themselves like that

33:59

and used that and just checked in with

34:01

people , I mean , look at what it did for you . It made

34:04

you feel safe I know it's like psychological safety . It

34:06

made you trust them . It made you

34:08

feel like you know you probably could speak

34:10

to her and let her know what you're struggling with . If she helped

34:12

you a little bit , you know she gave you some information

34:14

that was important to you , that made your job easier , that helped

34:16

you to produce some sort of valued outcomes . Man

34:19

, that's positive reinforcement . She's pairing herself as

34:21

a positive reinforcer . That's the kind of thing

34:23

we need , because it's building your skills , it's building

34:25

your retention , you

34:31

know . It's creating more knowledge and skills in you . So you can help , you know , probably help her , help

34:34

the RBTs and et cetera , et cetera . I mean it just has a large

34:36

ripple effect and I think it's a beautiful thing , large

34:39

ripple effect , and I think it's a beautiful thing . I would like to know what school she came from

34:41

and how . How did she get to be that way ? Or is it just that we just have some people that have

34:43

such strong

34:46

values that they figure it out . What do you ? What do you think

34:48

it was ?

34:48

You know that's actually a good question . I

34:51

don't remember . I know she has a background in

34:53

counseling , so there you

34:55

go . There you go Right .

34:57

There you go . Well , I think that we do in

35:00

our . I did a

35:02

podcast earlier with Pat Freiman

35:04

and we were talking about this and

35:07

I think and this is just my perspective

35:09

, but I think

35:13

for a long time as a field , because

35:15

what he was saying was that , of all

35:17

fields , everybody else

35:19

, all the other fields engineering

35:21

, all different sciences , astrophysics

35:24

you know they speak

35:26

to the public in a way that makes

35:28

it easier for them to understand , but

35:30

I feel like we have not focused on that

35:32

, not for a long time . I think

35:34

, probably maybe over the last decade . We're starting

35:36

to see a shift finally , and for

35:39

a long time we didn't decade there's we're starting to see a shift finally

35:41

, and it for a long time we didn't . But I wonder if we didn't do it

35:43

purposely , because we were trying to keep our

35:45

like show that we're a legitimate field , so

35:47

we need to speak sciencey , so we seem

35:50

like real scientists , something like that . I don't know

35:52

. I wrote about this a while back . I'll

35:54

drop the article and um a link to

35:56

the article . I think I shared it with you you did share

35:58

with me .

35:59

With me , yeah .

36:00

Yeah , and I think that I

36:03

just often wonder about that because I feel we should be

36:05

so much better in that area , but I think

36:07

it needs to be programmed into our

36:09

coursework , because it's like

36:11

we're separating the humanism

36:13

from the science and I think that that

36:17

we've

36:20

been searching for a heart , but I think we've had the heart . Like

36:22

the Tin man , the Wizard of Oz , we've

36:24

had the heart the whole time . It's the science . What could

36:26

be more compassionate than effectively

36:29

applying the science to help people , to

36:31

help themselves and help others ? I mean , honestly , gosh

36:33

, what could be better than that ? Because

36:36

it's as efficient and effective as we could be if

36:38

we use science .

36:39

Yeah , and I think in

36:42

our training , like it's drilled into

36:44

our heads that we have to be very

36:46

objective . You know , observable

36:48

behavior and along

36:51

the lines it just becomes so technical

36:53

and it just , you know , some

36:57

of the mock exams I was looking at and it's

36:59

like this

37:02

is kind of how we were wired to have

37:04

all this technical language and

37:06

then it becomes very hard to kind

37:08

of separate that . You

37:11

know , people have a problem like even

37:13

communicating with stakeholders and like

37:15

hey , don't use negative

37:19

reinforcement , positive reinforcement , manding

37:21

technique , don't use those words . You know

37:23

, like trying to teach RBTs , don't do

37:25

that , because even RBTs have that problem . You

37:27

know , speaking in this technical jargon . So

37:30

it definitely is a problem .

37:32

It absolutely is . I think that part of

37:34

coursework . I think we should be able to take

37:36

an event right , just an average event that's

37:39

described in average words , and I think

37:41

we should be able to explain it behavior analytically and

37:43

then explain it to lay person right what it

37:45

means behaviorally . So you should be able to take

37:47

that and explain it in both ways . And I

37:49

think that I don't think a lot

37:51

of people can do that . I think that they might

37:53

be , you know , like . I think they have

37:56

to be able to take these concepts and speak

37:58

two languages with them , one to the scientist

38:00

and one to the non-scientist . And

38:03

I think it's really important and mostly

38:05

we have to build that non-scientist

38:08

language because we have to communicate with our consumers

38:10

, we have to disseminate the science more

38:12

and help people to understand . But sometimes

38:14

I wonder is it that we don't understand it

38:17

well enough and

38:19

that's why we're not doing it , especially with some of the things I

38:21

see out there and people , even

38:23

in our own field , hating on the science . Like , how could

38:25

you hate on the science ? It's just a science . There's

38:27

nothing wrong with the science . People

38:29

have misapplied it , no doubt about it

38:31

. Let's get to the root cause of that , but like don't hate the

38:33

science right , I agree

38:35

it is .

38:37

I want to go back for a second to what you mentioned about

38:39

feedback from like rbts

38:41

. I do remember one thing

38:43

that was mentioned from

38:45

several people that I had trained

38:48

uh , how was this ? You know , I would ask

38:50

, how was the support where you came from ? And

38:53

they would mention , like how some

38:55

bcbas would have , like

38:57

, uh , social validity surveys and

38:59

they would do these check-ins and

39:02

have them fill them out and they

39:05

would be honest in them . Like you know , I feel

39:07

like I could meet , I could use more training on

39:09

this BIP . I feel like I need support

39:12

with this , and they

39:14

would be giving that information and the BCBAs

39:16

would do absolutely nothing with it

39:18

. Like it was just kind of like

39:20

for show you know

39:22

, so that was one thing . Is it was just kind of like for show

39:24

you know , so that was one thing . Is you know , as

39:26

BCBAs , when I'm finally passing

39:29

the exam and take this exam as

39:31

a BCBA ? Like that's one thing .

39:33

Like making sure that we are following

39:35

through when we get this feedback

39:38

, that's a systems

39:43

error because that data so

39:45

there should be , that

39:50

RBT data should be reporting out to BCBA

39:52

. To their coach I'm

39:54

saying this is what I need and the BCBA

39:56

should be reporting out that I've responded to my RBTs

39:59

and that data should be reported out right and there should be a match

40:01

. Rbts said I need help . Bcba

40:03

say they're giving help right , but

40:05

when there's no contingency in place there , right

40:07

, that's not part of the scorecard , it's not something that's

40:10

looked at Again . People are

40:12

going to either their values are going to drive

40:14

them and if their

40:16

values aren't strong enough , it's

40:18

going to be . You know how

40:24

can I do ? Just enough to get by ? You know and get paid . You know , and then there's a mix in there because

40:26

you know when things get too difficult

40:28

, you know you're going to get escape motivated behavior . So

40:32

. But I think with a good system it keeps behavior

40:34

and performance in a very

40:36

clean and efficient line and

40:39

that kind of stuff should not be happening , right

40:41

, because it can be just a show . And then

40:43

you know we have companies marketing it . Well , we check in with

40:45

our people , you know all the time . Okay , what

40:47

are you doing with that data ? You know what does that mean

40:50

.

40:51

Right , and you had mentioned in one of our previous

40:53

conversations , like how you

40:56

know , we talked about behavior chains , and then we

40:58

have these , the RBT , and then

41:00

it goes to the BCBA and then the

41:02

clinical director and then to , you

41:04

know , the CEO or whatever . Like can you ? Can you explain

41:06

that again ?

41:08

Oh you , oh sure , yeah . So with

41:10

any organization , you want to start with the result , right

41:12

, the end in mind . So let's say , retention is an

41:14

issue , okay

41:16

. And then you want to improve that retention

41:19

. So we'll say , well , what needs to happen ? Well , you've

41:21

already keyed in on a couple of those things , like well

41:23

, rbts would probably stay if they knew

41:25

better . Right , if they knew better , they would do better . So

41:28

we want RBTs to be following the plan

41:30

effectively , following the plan , doing these things

41:32

so they can promote

41:36

socially valid

41:38

outcomes . We can help the learner learn

41:40

, right , because that feels good . Rbts want to feel

41:42

that they're doing something . They want to feel they want

41:44

to see that they're making a change

41:46

with the learners . That feels really

41:48

good for them , right . And of course , they're getting paid

41:51

, et cetera , right . So there's the different reinforcers . Now

41:59

, if we want the RBTs to be able to do that , well

42:01

, what's the BCBA need to doed in the plan ? Training is about

42:03

the skill acquisition . Coaching is about the generalization

42:06

of those learned skills into the national environment . Okay

42:08

, they're wonderful . So if we want that

42:10

to happen uh , you know , and we

42:12

, of course we want the bcba to be checking

42:15

in with rbt and using their performance

42:17

as a measure of them , feedback for them . What do they need

42:19

to do more or less so differently if we want that to happen ? Well

42:22

, what do we need the director to do ? Well , we need the director

42:24

to be coaching the BCBAs

42:26

. We need the BCBAs to be reporting out

42:29

what kind of support they've given the RBTs , and they

42:31

need to be looking at the RBT data . And they

42:33

need to be reinforcing the BCBAs for doing

42:35

it right , and et cetera . So there's got to be metrics

42:37

for that and we got to chain that all the way to

42:39

top the . What does the CEO need to do ? Well , the CEO

42:41

needs to make sure that all these principles

42:43

are grounded in the values . They need to be sharing data

42:46

with everybody . They need to be giving feedback across

42:48

the organization . They got to be looking at the

42:50

aggregate data at the

42:52

executive level , but that data

42:54

needs to be broken down to each level , so each person

42:57

has a piece of the pie to look at

42:59

. Right , because that data becomes feedback for

43:01

them how

43:04

well are my RPTs performing ? Right For the director , how well are my

43:06

BCBAs performing ? Or the supervisor ? Whoever it is right

43:08

and up the chain . So everybody has this positive

43:10

accountability Each person should

43:14

be . Each

43:16

person has a result that they're trying to produce . Are

43:18

they producing that result ? And if they're not producing

43:21

that result , why ? And if a lot

43:23

of people are not producing the result , then

43:25

you really have a systems issue . But even if only one

43:27

person's not resulting , producing

43:35

that result , we , it's not a we can't blame . Blaming gets us absolutely nowhere . It does the

43:37

opposite , makes things worse . We have to keep on a behavior analytic lens and we have

43:39

to do some sort of performance diagnostics

43:41

. You know , is it can't do or don't do , you

43:44

know , if they can't do , we got to give them the skills and it's not

43:46

we don't have to . We keep it simple . Can you tell me what you're

43:48

supposed to do ? Can you show me what you're supposed to do ? Can you do it quickly

43:50

? Boom

43:57

, that's a wrap , you know ? Um , if it's a

43:59

, if it's a , don't do . And , I think , got some other factors

44:02

. And this is where , whereas , if

44:04

we are in a position of managing somebody else's

44:06

performance , and from whatever level , we

44:08

have to reflect in the mirror , right

44:10

, or how often are we observing ? Are we giving feedback

44:12

? What kind of feedback are we giving right ? Are we correcting

44:15

more than we're reinforcing ? Are we helping people

44:17

see the you know the outcome of their behaviors

44:19

. Do they value those outcomes ? If they don't value those and we

44:21

say , well , you know , they just don't value

44:23

it . Well , I believe good leadership , or good leading

44:26

, actually is an MO . Right , they create

44:28

value for things . No-transcript

44:54

all three things at once . Right , they can barely remember two

44:56

. Usually I focus on just one thing . Right , just

44:58

throw the jab , just turn the knuckle over . Turn the knuckle

45:00

over right , and then we do the pivot , the back

45:02

foot . But anyways , the

45:05

point being that at

45:07

each level we have to figure out , you

45:09

know , if somebody's not performing to a standard which we need

45:11

to know , what that standard is . Right , coming

45:13

back to your point at the beginning , we don't even know how competent

45:16

people are and we need to use their

45:18

own performance as their own baseline and build

45:21

from there . But we don't have any of that data

45:23

because too often we're not using

45:25

the principles of behavior within the organization

45:27

. I'm not going to , I can't , I don't want to overgeneralize

45:29

that , because I know there are places like Christina's

45:31

place that are doing a piece of the puzzle

45:33

behavior analysis in Vero

45:36

, or Liquid Park near my area she's

45:38

super and there's other organizations out there that are

45:40

doing the right thing , but

45:49

I would love to go around . Wouldn't it be cool to go around and just find these organizations

45:51

and shine a ?

45:51

light on them and do videos on them and write articles on them or whatever . Wouldn't that be cool

45:53

? That would be amazing . And the first time you explained all this to me , like

45:55

I completely understood , and I just I

45:57

, I think I just want everyone else to hear it

45:59

because it's just , it

46:01

seems so simple . You know , like

46:04

it's a lot of response effort , but it's

46:06

definitely what

46:08

should be happening in all these organizations

46:11

and really it's just

46:13

like we said at the beginning , I

46:15

don't know why , you know , everyone is not taking

46:18

on OBM principles and , you know , just

46:20

implementing these within

46:22

their own companies and it's just it just kind

46:24

of mind blowing , Like we should know better

46:27

. You know this is . We have the solution

46:29

at hand , it's just a matter of implementing

46:31

it . We do .

46:34

I again I'm going to come back to , and I think it's the

46:36

same thing we agree on . I think that I

46:38

mean , I didn't even know what organizational behavior management was

46:41

when . I came out , I

46:50

knew that I had said to somebody that was working at a school that was struggling , and I said you know

46:52

there was school-wide positive behavior support . Have you ever heard of that ? Yeah , I have . So I said to

46:54

a colleague like I kind of think we need positive

46:56

behavior supports for the adults because you

46:59

know , if we're going to bring out the best in the students , we have to

47:01

bring out the best in adults . And I don't see any

47:03

of the adults doing the things that they were trained in in relationship

47:05

to this . And they said there is something like that . It's

47:07

called organizational behavior management . That's why they , when

47:09

they handed me the book by opera daniels called

47:12

bring out the best in people , which changed my life

47:14

, and it's not that anything that was profound

47:16

in it . I mean , thank god aubrey wrote this stuff , but what he

47:18

did was state the obvious . It's the

47:20

same principles that we all know . Right

47:23

, that's why this is . But this whole behavior myopia

47:25

. We forget about using the principles when

47:27

we're working with other adults . For some odd reason

47:29

we just want to play people man and cuss

47:32

at them or cuss in our head or call them lazy or

47:34

do all this stuff . And I've done it , believe

47:36

me . I still have to check myself against it , you

47:38

know , because it's we all have our own

47:40

history but know we do have the

47:42

tools to be better .

47:44

Absolutely . It's just a matter of using

47:46

it .

47:48

So , um , all right , so we've got about 10

47:50

minutes or so ish left . Um

47:53

, I'm wondering in a , in a , in a perfect world

47:55

, right , let's say that Christina

47:57

had uh , uh , uh

48:00

, uh , let me see , hold on , lord

48:04

have mercy . I just said

48:06

the wrong name . I

48:09

wasn't talking about Christina Morales

48:12

. I'm sorry about that . I screw

48:14

up names all the time .

48:16

My middle name is Christine .

48:17

Oh , okay , Well that can work right , all

48:20

right . Well , christina Morales , you know I love

48:22

you , girl . You're on my mind . When I was thinking about

48:24

that stuff , we were just talking about Stephanie , right ? So

48:26

, stephanie , I know what Christina would say if she could wave

48:28

a magic wand . But , stephanie , if Stephanie

48:31

could wave a magic wand , based on what's

48:33

your knowledge and again , I recognize that you

48:36

are relatively new to the field , but

48:38

, like man , you've making leaps and bounds . You

48:40

know , especially I know some of the stuff from when we

48:42

spoke offline but what are just

48:44

like three things that you wish you could change

48:46

right now just to make it better for RBTs

48:48

let's say it was your organization when they

48:50

come in . Here's what you're definitely going to do .

48:53

Oh yeah , definitely

48:55

some hardcore training , regardless

48:58

of how long you've been in the field , whether you

49:01

just got your RBT or you

49:03

had it for five , six years , um

49:06

, coming in like I

49:08

feel all RBT should be treated as

49:11

if they know nothing and it's you know . That's . One

49:13

thing that I would always say is like I

49:15

am not trying to insult your intelligence , you're

49:18

probably going to hear me retraining you on

49:20

things that you're going to look

49:22

at me funny Cause it's very basic stuff . Um , and when I'm guessing , when you're retraining them

49:24

, it's that you're going to look at me funny because it's very basic stuff .

49:27

And I'm guessing , when you're retraining them , it's also you're

49:29

assessing their competency , because you don't want to do

49:31

overkill with something , but you give them training . Okay , you got that

49:33

Cool , let's move on to the next .

49:34

Yeah . So then , just

49:37

making sure that they have that solid training

49:39

, definitely

49:41

incorporating BSD in that , making

49:43

sure that they're comfortable and they're fluent

49:46

in their skills . So

49:48

number one is just that solid training

49:50

. Number two is

49:53

remembering that they are human

49:55

beings .

49:56

You know you have .

49:57

You have to give them that emotional

50:00

support . I know we have ethics rules

50:03

that we can't , like you have these dual relationships

50:05

. I'm not taking . I'm not saying like take them out to dinner

50:07

and just give them that support . We

50:11

recognize precursor behaviors in

50:13

our learners , right when we know that a

50:15

certain behavior is coming and we're looking

50:17

for that and we want to stop it before it gets to

50:19

that , you know , to the behavior we don't

50:21

want to see . Same

50:24

applies to our RBTs . You

50:26

can see some precursor behaviors

50:28

when they're struggling when

50:31

they're getting ready to leave

50:33

when they're getting ready to all the same stuff

50:35

. Yeah . So it's like catch

50:38

those precursors before

50:40

your RBT burns out

50:42

. And third is just that ongoing supervision

50:45

, you know , making sure that you are checking

50:47

in frequently . You are , you

50:49

know , reteaching skills and

50:52

it's just an ever go , it's

50:54

, it's an ongoing process . It should

50:56

just keep happening . It's not

50:58

something that , oh , she's really great

51:00

. I know you do this

51:03

. Well , I'll see you in two weeks or

51:05

I'll see you in three weeks , especially those who are

51:07

, you know , doing those

51:09

in home sessions where DCBAs

51:11

are not usually present . So

51:14

to me I mean those three things . And

51:17

you know , for bigger organizations

51:20

, having someone dedicated

51:23

to you know training

51:25

consistently , constantly , like

51:27

that , should be the only job

51:30

they have . You know , nothing else but

51:32

the training . And you

51:35

know , I think with that in place , things

51:38

could start to change . You know , of

51:40

course it's not going to make the company perfect

51:42

. There's always going to be a million and one different problems

51:45

. But pertaining to RBTs , I think

51:47

that you know that's kind of my goal down

51:49

the line . This is how I'm going to treat it .

51:51

Yeah , good , I love that . And

51:53

I think it's better to replace the word training

51:55

with professional development , because in professional

51:58

development , we could say training and coaching . Training

52:00

is about skill acquisition , coaching

52:06

is about supporting the generalization of those learned skills in the natural environment . Right , we

52:08

switch from instructing people what they need to do to asking them what are they doing and

52:10

what impact they're having . Essentially , you know . But

52:13

to your point , yeah , we need to have somebody that's dedicated to

52:16

professional development , making sure that these

52:18

folks can do well , and I think we need to check

52:21

in on them regularly

52:23

. To your point and respond

52:25

to it , there should be like on Fiverr

52:27

I don't know if I'm saying it right Fiverr , fiverr , do you

52:29

know the contracting thing ? I

52:32

have some of my editing work done from there . Anyways

52:35

, I'll leave feedback for somebody

52:37

, but then I get a private email from them

52:39

saying like , hey , this is just between us

52:41

. How do you think that went with that

52:43

contractor ? I just think , man

52:46

, we need to do more checks and balances

52:48

within organizations , but we should never

52:50

, ever , ever , ever use

52:53

that data to punish people ever .

52:55

Oh yeah .

52:57

Or people find a baseline right . But I think it

52:59

just creates positive accountability . We should use it

53:01

as much as possible to positively reinforce

53:03

right . So if we're shaping more

53:05

well , we set we set sub goals and accomplishments

53:08

. Then that data can be used to show people like

53:10

you're moving in the right direction . Look , you're doing this . Your behavior

53:12

is getting better in this area . Check out the results

53:14

you're producing , you know . I think in the end

53:16

people want to . They want to know that they've

53:18

done a good job . At the end of the day , you know a lot

53:20

don't , because they're not even sure what results they

53:22

should be producing .

53:23

Yeah , every time I've seen any like punishing

53:27

contingencies put in place to correct

53:29

behavior with RBT

53:32

, it backfires , it absolutely

53:34

backfires , and

53:36

it places the blame on the RBT where

53:39

you know that's not where the that's

53:42

not where you should be looking .

53:43

You know like Look in the mirror , the

53:45

PDC , that's what they need to look . The performance diagnostic

53:47

checklist very simple . Start there

53:49

before you start giving them any corrective feedback

53:51

. Have you , have you created an environment where they

53:53

could be successful ? If you've done all that stuff

53:56

okay and you've provided reasonable

53:58

support and you know we could define what that

54:00

means , then I think , okay , let's have

54:02

a chat , then it's time for , like a tough talk , because

54:04

that needs to happen sometimes . But let's not do that until we have

54:07

that kind of environment .

54:09

Absolutely , and also making

54:11

sure , like reinforcers are actually reinforcing

54:13

. You know , like a $5

54:16

Starbucks gift card is not necessarily going

54:18

to be reinforcing to someone . I think what I've found

54:20

to be most reinforcing to to RBTs

54:23

is just that positive

54:25

feedback , that genuine

54:28

you are doing a great job

54:30

and that's not to say , like , you know , you can't tell them they're

54:32

not doing something correctly . You

54:35

know , when they're not doing something correctly , approach

54:37

it like , hey , this is what we're going to do different

54:39

. This is , you know , but

54:42

reinforcers , you know , those little gift

54:44

cards or it's

54:46

just , it just does not work .

54:48

Now , if you're relying on that kind of stuff

54:50

, that's like any schools that I've gone into and

54:52

they have a token economy , right , and

54:55

I look in the hallways they're yelling at kids , they're giving tokens

54:57

. I'm like , you know , let's try a friggin . Here's an intervention

54:59

, let's call it , just be fucking nice

55:01

, use my language , right , but can we

55:03

just start by like smiling at the kids

55:05

and doing that stuff , the tokens , all

55:07

the gifts , that should be just like , hey

55:10

, this is literally a token of my appreciation

55:13

. You deserve much more than this . But I think

55:15

that when people feel valued in

55:17

an organization , right , if you have that kind

55:19

of culture , people come for

55:21

the money but they stay for the culture . I mean , that's literally

55:23

the one of the discussions that , speaking

55:25

of christina , uh , that we had with

55:28

her , with her organization , um

55:30

, that and that is true . But I've

55:33

actually seen people leave and come

55:35

back , you know , because you know you kind of want to get that 20

55:38

an hour thing . Then you're like wait a second you know I don't want

55:40

to be miserable , and am I doing things that are ? And I'm not saying those companies are doing something

55:42

unethical . I'm not saying they're not . I don't want to be miserable , and am I doing things that are ? And

55:44

I'm not saying those companies are doing something unethical . I'm not saying they're not . I

55:46

don't know . I just don't understand how it's happening . But

55:49

anyways , I think you know people

55:51

want to feel valued . They want to feel like they're doing a

55:53

good job . At the end , you know most people

55:55

aren't leaving for the money that we leaving because

55:57

of bad leadership , whatever role

55:59

that's at . I think you know bad systems , bad

56:01

leadership it could be good people I'm not saying they're not good

56:03

people but there's a system there

56:05

that's not just helping people , you know , be

56:08

as successful as they can be and get in touch

56:11

with their reinforcers . End of story .

56:13

Absolutely , and that's the key right there

56:15

feeling valued . You

56:17

know , I've seen RBTs coming

56:19

to me and telling me like , if you need help with training

56:22

, if you need help with this , I

56:24

would love to do that and , oh

56:27

my gosh , I jumped on that so fast .

56:29

Well , that's a measure of your leadership , though . When people come

56:31

to you and ask you want to volunteer , that's

56:33

want to do behavior right , as

56:35

opposed to have to do behavior when you hear people

56:37

saying , well , I don't want to do that , it's not my job . That's

56:40

really great stuff . That's wonderful .

56:42

That was like my reinforcer

56:44

, you know , like seeing people coming in

56:46

and creating a team

56:48

where they would you know these are the designated

56:50

people . Hey , if anyone else wants to do this

56:52

, let me know . And I would have people

56:54

coming in and saying , hey , I want to

56:56

be a part of this , I want to be a part of this

56:58

training . So you had , like

57:01

, lead trainers , you know that

57:03

were helping me out , and it was just like it just

57:05

makes everything easier , not just for me

57:07

but for them . The new RBT

57:09

is coming in and for the learners and everything

57:11

. So , yeah , feeling valued

57:13

and , you know

57:15

, playing up on people's strengths , recognize

57:18

those strengths . You do really

57:20

good when you're sitting down and doing

57:22

DTT with your learner . Hey

57:25

, do you mind if I bring this person to watch you for 30 minutes ?

57:27

Huge huge reinforcer . Or

57:29

even saying like I noticed that kid's behaving so well

57:31

. What did you do ? That's great .

57:33

Absolutely so . It

57:35

was just a lot of reinforcing

57:37

those good behaviors

57:40

from the RBTs and that was

57:42

good enough to keep them going

57:44

. Didn't need a you know five dollar gift

57:46

card . They didn't need this . It was just

57:48

feeling valued for their that's

57:50

at the core of it .

57:51

Man , if you live , if you live down here

57:53

, I would so try to plug you into christina's organization

57:55

. You'd be a perfect fit there sounds

57:58

awesome yeah yeah , it sounds like a match

58:00

made in heaven . Well , listen , we're

58:02

up at the end of this hour here , steph , and

58:04

it's been a fun chat . I

58:07

appreciate you coming on to

58:09

chat with me , and when are you sitting for your certification

58:11

, by the way ?

58:13

Very soon .

58:14

Okay .

58:16

You know , I put in my application . I actually

58:18

prolonged putting in my application for way

58:20

too long . I had a lot of things going on and

58:25

finally I was like , okay , let me just put in this application . I was just talking to a friend of

58:27

mine who just did the same thing . We've

58:30

been sitting on it for so long , so

58:32

I'm really just waiting on the board right now to get

58:34

back .

58:35

All right . Well , you're lucky At least when you take the test now . You don't have

58:37

to wait for like three months yeah

58:39

.

58:40

Oh man oh yeah

58:42

, it was .

58:43

I think when I did it it might have been six months , I don't remember it was a

58:45

while . But

58:49

I remember also being at the local , the state conference down here , faba , and you know some

58:51

people running up and down the hallway . They pass , and then you'd see

58:53

somebody over the corner like crying you

58:55

know it's sad , no matter what you know . It's

58:57

just repetition . Some people say they're not good

58:59

test takers . I'm like no , that's not

59:02

it . You're not a good test prepper because

59:04

if you prep well enough and you do like small chunks

59:06

, over time distributed we talked about this a little bit

59:08

yeah , you'll do fine , and if you don't

59:10

do fine just means you just need to keep doing

59:12

.

59:12

That's all just repetition there you go

59:14

and , um , you know , thank you for giving

59:17

me the platform , because this is , this is really

59:19

a passionate subject for me , you know , passionate

59:21

, a passionate topic . And

59:24

it'll be interesting , once I'm I'm

59:27

a credentialed BCBA , to come back

59:29

and see like is my

59:31

perspective different , you know , like

59:33

once I have that credential and I'm

59:35

actually , you know , Don't lose this perspective

59:37

.

59:37

I don't think it's going to be different .

59:39

I hope not .

59:41

Everything you're saying is right on . It's not

59:43

. You know , certainly , if you become a CEO , there

59:45

are a lot of other things that you have to think about , but your perspective

59:47

is still right on spot . You know , I mean

59:50

, that's right on point . So all

59:52

right . Well , when you do get your

59:54

behavior analyst , certification , make

59:56

sure you give me a shout . You

59:58

know , and you know , eventually , when

1:00:00

you own your own company , we'll get you back on here

1:00:02

, maybe before that , when you're in your supervisor

1:00:05

role , and we'll see how it evolves

1:00:07

from you , how you're respectable . We'll pull out this

1:00:09

podcast and you can compare notes . How about

1:00:11

that ?

1:00:12

That sounds perfect , thank you .

1:00:14

If somebody wanted to reach out to you ? What's the

1:00:16

best ways ? Your email , or do you just want them to

1:00:18

contact you on LinkedIn ? I

1:00:20

can drop this in the show notes .

1:00:22

LinkedIn and probably Instagram

1:00:25

are probably my two main ones right

1:00:27

now .

1:00:27

Okay , I'll link those both to the show

1:00:29

notes . So well , it's been a pleasure

1:00:32

and I look forward

1:00:34

to chatting with you more .

1:00:35

Sounds good , paulie . Thank you , bye-bye

1:00:39

.