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0:49

i

0:51

was five when was my father died

0:56

and for some months didn't

0:59

show any major symptoms of

1:01

trauma

1:08

but then i developed this night

1:13

was horrible he was

1:35

in nightmare i was completely hopeless

1:43

couldn't see either mother

1:45

or father around

1:52

whole thing was quite scary so

1:54

much so that i told my mother that i didn't

1:56

want sleep at at all

2:00

this is when

2:02

she realized that

2:14

and then she me to psychotherapist

2:18

i

2:21

don't exactly know what he did because

2:23

don't have lot of of memories

2:25

of this process i what i remember is

2:28

going to those sessions and playing

2:30

with toys and and talking but with

2:32

not directly about about the events a

2:35

of my father's death

2:42

but then he very

2:44

very simply he led

2:47

me to believe that i could

2:49

change the course of the dream that

2:51

i could have , degree

2:53

of autonomy some degree of consciousness

2:55

and that could change that that dream script

2:59

after that i the dream chain.

3:22

and i was in a a detective looking for

3:25

a mad criminal I

3:28

was, I was hunting a tiger in the, the

3:30

jungle.

3:42

And I also a male friend

3:44

and a girlfriend. friend and

3:49

at , point says i cannot go on

3:51

you You need to go by yourself

4:10

and then the accepted that and

4:12

, moved alone towards

4:14

the finding that tiger

4:17

then tiger me flee

4:26

jumping in water and swim

4:32

was big shock there

4:42

in the end the i felt like i was i

4:45

was going through an adventure an i was

4:47

overcoming was about overcoming

4:50

fear going along

4:55

and then after that third dream i

4:58

this these dream ceased they

5:01

they

5:14

dreams basically an expression of what's going

5:16

on but we may not be conscious of

5:18

that's at all an that's why they're so precious

5:22

you sometimes

5:26

i struggle

5:27

that idea of that that the dreams

5:29

are actually telling something real

5:32

because um

5:37

my dad passed away last year and

5:39

um hearing you describe that like i

5:41

i had i had dreams they

5:43

were the most vivid dreams i've had my life and

5:46

um and part me

5:48

wants like dissociate

5:51

them from my reality like sort have have

5:53

them be in their space but what you're

5:55

describing feels like a like

5:58

almost dreams

6:00

our our window into into

6:02

our minds and system deeper

6:04

consciousness um rather

6:08

than a random assortment in just

6:10

like happened in our mind

6:13

so there's level of noise of

6:16

level of unpredictability

6:18

in dreams not random at all

6:20

but their genesis their their

6:22

motor is entirely

6:25

not are this is very

6:27

clear when you lose somebody you love not

6:29

random at all if dreams were random

6:31

you would not have repetitive dreams about

6:34

anything especially

6:36

at those moments when we are suffering and we go through

6:39

grief and we and we recurrent dreams

6:42

this cannot be produced by random process

6:44

has to be produced by meaningful process this

6:48

date a my neuroscientist

6:51

from brazil i'm at

6:53

a brain institute of the federal university

6:55

of and the north my

6:57

laboratory focus on memory sleep

6:59

and dreams

7:01

sedate to also wrote the book the oracle

7:03

of night the history and science

7:06

of dreams dreams ,

7:08

process of adaptation dreams

7:11

have do with preparing dreamer

7:13

the next the random at all

7:27

after my dad passed and he began showing

7:29

up in my dreams i found myself

7:32

thinking back to conversation

7:34

we'd had a few years earlier it's

7:36

the only time i remember my dad explicitly

7:39

talking about dreams it

7:42

all started when my mom mentioned

7:44

that a mysterious thing had happened to a friend

7:47

of hers she dreamed about

7:49

loved one right at the moment that

7:51

loved one died in believed

7:53

god was sending her friend a message in that dream

7:56

and my dad kind chuckled and said

7:58

dreams don't work like you the doctor

8:01

who specialize in helping people with sleep

8:03

issues after all have being honest

8:05

he probably would told me for making

8:08

this episode

8:09

is bad dreams probably

8:11

sleep apnea you would say

8:13

that there was no convincing my mom she

8:16

reminded him that she knew she'd have two daughters

8:18

years before me and my sister came along

8:20

because two cats with green eyes

8:23

had come to her knew dream

8:25

green both have green eyes for

8:27

long time wasn't sure who

8:29

i made the mistake of thinking it was an either

8:32

or dreams either meant

8:34

nothing or they were the key to cooking

8:38

now when i see my dad dream

8:41

and he tells me he's proud me that

8:43

doing okay i don't know

8:46

to make that exactly is it

8:48

god is it my mind trying to

8:50

heal itself is it just bad

8:52

night's sleep is all

8:54

three

8:56

these questions are probably not

8:58

that much different than ones you're asking

9:00

over the last few weeks we've received

9:02

dozens of messages from listeners detailing

9:05

their dreams many them are

9:07

rooted in the anxiety felt during

9:09

twenty during twenty first year of covet

9:12

fears about the chaos of the world make

9:14

it into our dreams we more those

9:16

we've lost we escape the combines

9:19

of our waking minds we find joy

9:21

in absurdity we escape

9:23

into ourselves in our dreams and

9:25

for thousands of years dreams have

9:27

helped humans find meaning they've

9:30

inspired creativity pushed people

9:32

towards innovation and even spark

9:34

conflict do not random at all

9:42

i'm randi the i'm ranting

9:44

i'm louis and on this episode of

9:47

tulane from and year we're taking

9:49

a journey to the history of dreams

9:52

now in twenty twenty to in what's

9:54

shaping up to be another difficult year

9:56

we explore how humans have used

9:59

dreams meaning in

10:01

our waking lives

10:23

my name is samantha alexander

10:26

i'm from romance arkansas and you're listening

10:28

to line n p r

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this message comes from npr sponsor

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business legal zoom is not a law firm

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or substitute for any attorney or law

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firm

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part the science

10:55

sleep

11:21

dreams are process of

11:23

adaptation dreams have to with

11:26

preparing dreamer for the

11:28

next day following day

11:32

when we go

11:34

to sleep a brain will enter a

11:37

sequence of different phases

11:45

brain slows down the body relaxes

11:48

muscles twitch which will

11:51

be characterized by very different brain

11:53

waves and very different chemicals

11:56

released in brain phase two

11:58

body temperature drops bursts of

12:00

brain activity happen in waves

12:03

your eyes stop moving your muscles

12:05

relax everything ,

12:07

down down then about ninety

12:10

minutes after you fall asleep rapid

12:12

eye movements start you enter

12:15

your first cycle of rem sleep

12:18

dreaming occurs during

12:20

most of time but it's

12:22

not very vivid until

12:24

about halfway the

12:26

asleep

12:29

the first

12:32

one is short but the cycles

12:34

get longer and longer as you in

12:36

and out deep sleep and

12:38

dreaming sleep rapid eye movement

12:41

sleep eye rem sleep

13:06

rem sleep is characterized by very very

13:09

strong activation of nearness

13:11

the cerebral cortex

13:13

so much

13:16

so that some scientists call it

13:18

paradoxical sleep because it feels

13:20

like the brain is awake even

13:23

though it's asleep

13:32

but neuro chemically things

13:34

are not the same as during waking so

13:36

some near transmitters such as

13:38

norepinephrine and

13:41

serotonin our not released

13:43

at all during are im sleep this

13:45

will cause the reactivation

13:48

of memories that occurs during are im sleep

13:50

be much more

13:52

free in

13:55

memories to associate in quite

13:57

unpredictable manners

14:02

also during our am sleep the prefrontal

14:04

regions of the brain or not activate

14:07

so this means that we lack the

14:10

ability to inhibit behaviors lacks

14:12

the ability to ability few

14:15

odds during the dream and wakes up

14:22

bizarre dreams as

14:24

very natural thing during dreaming

14:27

and we and we along we continue we

14:29

we basically follow the the threat

14:39

like that happen during we we would pause say

14:41

oh this wrong something something

14:44

here that doesn't fit but we we

14:46

often don't don't get this feeling

15:01

if i had to draw dream this would

15:03

be patches of memories given

15:06

an overall tone

15:08

that is given desire they

15:11

every time i turned around

15:13

guided had their math we were having races

15:16

down like flights stairs see

15:20

memories , reactivated reactivated

15:23

by desires fears

15:27

i had to like swim over the room

15:29

and like hold my breath

15:31

in ways that are reminiscent

15:34

of the waking life but that

15:36

makes things happen yesterday with things

15:38

happen when you were child i

15:42

just did remember trying crap

15:46

there's no censorship there's

15:48

no mind telling you shouldn't dreaming

15:51

that you shouldn't be visualizing

15:54

to quite

15:56

the opposite we tend to to go

15:58

into those repressed areas we

16:00

often cannot visit but then doing dreaming

16:02

can visit and we will visit because

16:05

in fact what dreams

16:07

are doing is to present is with images

16:09

that synthesize that synthesize

16:11

that we going through

16:16

they can give us lot of insight into what's

16:18

going on we may not be aware of what's

16:44

dreams our , source

16:46

of of , they

16:48

have been the source of new ideas from the ideas

16:51

beginning are ability

16:53

to daydream is very

16:55

likely a reflection of are ability to night

16:57

story if you look into the brain

16:59

areas that our involved in daydream the

17:01

same as those involved in night

17:03

tree when we plan something

17:06

the future when we travel into past when

17:08

we tell a story about are own life

17:10

when we make a story up

17:13

all those situations involve activation

17:15

of those brain regions that we

17:18

need to have empathy to ,

17:20

able to put ourselves other shoes shoes

17:23

so very so what

17:26

allowed our ancestors to develop

17:28

technology develop new ideas to develop

17:31

culture and and and enter

17:33

this process of accumulation of culture

17:36

is something that was propelled by

17:38

dreams

17:45

zora neal hurston the celebrated

17:48

early twentieth century novelist wrote

17:51

a sentence that has always stuck

17:53

with me the dream is

17:55

the truth these five

17:57

words express grand idea

18:00

that our dreams can reveal truths

18:02

to us that we cannot access when we're

18:04

awake it's , place where

18:06

we're completely free from confines

18:09

of our self awareness awareness when

18:11

we try to make sense of our dreams we

18:13

can find meaning in our own thoughts and

18:15

desires according to sedate

18:17

our to ribeiro that thousands have

18:19

years we humans have made art technology

18:22

and imagine new futures inspired

18:24

by the dreams we experience almost

18:27

every night

18:30

when we come back we ,

18:32

our ancestors in cave

18:35

in dreams

18:57

my name is from howard i'm from jacksonville

18:59

north carolina i'm listening to line

19:01

from

19:05

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or a substitute for any attorney or law

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part

19:59

two messages

20:01

from the the

20:13

in december nineteen ninety four

20:15

three explorers were making their way

20:17

through a big complex set of caves

20:19

in southern france they

20:22

, through vast chambers and as they

20:24

got deeper into the caves skulls

20:26

and bones bears littered the ground

20:28

before them scratches surrounded

20:30

them on the walls and the rocks and

20:33

then

20:40

through light flashlights they

20:43

saw something

20:46

there were mysterious paintings on the walls

20:49

depicting life in an ancient world

20:51

human hand prints in various sizes

20:54

geometric shapes human figures

20:56

and animals lions bison

20:59

horses bears species

21:01

that lived in europe during the upper paleolithic

21:05

around thirty thousand years ago

21:09

they come

21:11

the known as chauvet cave paintings

21:15

these

21:15

works have art were made by people would

21:17

have been recognizable to us people

21:20

who on some level must have value art

21:23

because they had to go some great length

21:26

just to make them just

21:28

art just not produced at the entrance the very

21:30

entrance of the caves very deep

21:32

very caves they had to go for for hundreds

21:35

of meters and then

21:37

they they needed to use fire be able

21:39

to to draw or paint

21:53

the paintings come

21:55

black red they run

21:57

across the cave wall like some ancient message

21:59

left behind future people discover

22:02

and here's what makes them even trippy

22:05

or if you use a torch fire

22:07

torch illuminate the case in just the

22:09

right way the paintings

22:11

appear to be animated

22:13

for example when when you have like a bison

22:16

a the bison has many legs doesn't

22:18

have for legs has more legs and

22:20

this seems to be an

22:22

attempt to produce the the impression

22:25

motion

22:33

as the filmmaker werner herzog said

22:36

these paintings could be considered first

22:39

works cinema

23:04

the those paintings that are not

23:06

, beautiful impressive

23:09

but they also suggestive

23:11

of of magic

23:14

of magic imagery that was had

23:16

some purpose was the mixture

23:19

of people and other ends a

23:22

human torso with a bison

23:24

head for

23:34

where did these wild images from

23:37

how did our ancient ancestors pull ideas

23:40

from the recesses of their minds and

23:42

place them onto a rock canvas

23:45

see data believes that that key to answering

23:47

these questions comes from dreams

23:52

and this is probably a function

23:54

that was facilitated by dreaming

23:58

by rim's leap conduce

24:00

is a a reactivation

24:02

of memories that is not very quite

24:09

now if we transport ourselves

24:12

thirty , years years

24:15

past and we imagined these

24:17

imagined the only

24:19

logical thing to to to conclude

24:21

is that people would come out of come dreams absolutely

24:25

sure they had encountered godly

24:28

entities in and in search

24:30

of entities in

24:45

right so let's address obvious

24:48

question how does sedate

24:50

know all how can anyone

24:52

know anything about the intelligence people

24:55

thirty thousand years well

24:57

the reality is no one knows for sure

25:01

these are theories based on his reading of evidence

25:03

he and other scholars are decoding messages

25:06

from human beings that lived in completely different

25:08

world their inferring intentions

25:10

from outcomes in

25:12

this spirit sedate that contends that

25:14

because these cave paintings contain so

25:17

many fantastical elements particularly

25:19

the melding of animal and human the

25:21

animation that cetera we can conclude

25:24

on some level that prehistoric humans

25:26

were engaging with their dreams they

25:28

were taking them seriously any

25:31

if them have any other theory about

25:33

dreaming is like why ,

25:35

you doubt that right why would you wake

25:37

up in the morning saying i had this dream

25:39

about this this the lord

25:42

of the beasts with big antlers the came

25:44

and helped came up plan

25:46

my my hunt but now this is probably

25:49

illusion no not the conclusion

25:51

our ancestors took ,

25:54

quite quite contrary they they

25:56

concluded that those dreams were proof

25:59

, existence of those entities they

26:01

should paid attention so

26:04

all those things points to

26:06

a very rich mental life these

26:09

ancestors of ours were dreaming

26:11

our non aquatic mammals have our

26:13

end sleeve so were safe to

26:15

say that our ancestors in paralytic

26:18

were dreaming lot

26:42

my recent dream was that hanging

26:44

out with mister rogers

26:47

i'm currently thirty weeks pregnant and had

26:49

a recent dream that the skin

26:51

on my belly was translucent

26:54

and i thanked and

26:56

for being a stable

26:59

my life growing up my

27:02

could look in and see that my baby

27:04

was screaming help help

27:06

over and over again down

27:08

a been writing my dreams down very long

27:11

and it was very disturbing was very

27:13

pleased wake up from that one

27:17

as far as will look back our

27:19

ancestors were dreaming and as soon

27:21

as they had language they were sharing those dreams

27:25

gazed , the right if adversary

27:27

will die if gazed toward

27:29

left left adversary overcome

27:33

this , dream tablet written

27:35

over three thousand years ago

27:37

in babylon look

27:40

backward he will not attain

27:42

his desire

27:44

is is some of oldest evidence

27:46

of dream interpretation ever recorded

27:48

and it shows us that in many parts the world

27:51

from millenia dreams played in

27:53

important role in waking life

27:57

if you're disconnected from that

28:00

just live from waking life to waking life

28:02

and you never remember your dreams never share

28:04

dreams with anybody and you never

28:06

take your dreams into consideration for any decision

28:09

your living a life entirely

28:11

different from the lives of are ancestors

28:15

we did not evolve to

28:18

to have this lack have relationship

28:20

to dreams we evolved we ,

28:23

dreams were important to define what we

28:25

are are i

28:27

think that a lot have what people are feeling are

28:30

this sense that we are that nowhere

28:33

says we going alone this says

28:35

that we have no roots we have

28:37

no connection to the past this

28:40

, has has to do with are lack

28:43

of sleep lack dreaming

28:53

know it's it's interesting because you

28:55

mention that a dreams

28:57

are way to a you

28:59

know on the one hand and a from positive

29:02

perspective they're a way to our way out problem

29:05

but on the other hand there also a

29:08

potentially misleading

29:10

well they think you're you're touching a

29:12

very good point here which is that

29:14

dreams are simulations

29:16

possible futures which means that

29:19

they are often wrong and

29:22

in that's why in all those ancient

29:24

cultures there the need for

29:27

dream interpretation

29:29

from ancient times all the way up to the

29:31

middle ages dreams were often

29:33

used to try to predict future events

29:36

special people in society were assigned

29:38

the role of interpreting dreams you

29:40

can see this in many texts like the epic

29:42

of gilgamesh the bible and huron

29:45

people were very serious about it even

29:47

ancient rulers like alexander the great

29:49

in xerxes used dreams to predict

29:51

victories in battle into many

29:53

indigenous cultures around the world dream

29:56

interpretations were taken into consideration

29:58

when making decisions sometimes even

30:00

for entire communities

30:02

the should not be taken at face value dreams

30:05

and people knew this in across

30:07

cultures people knew it's in in

30:09

india and simple world

30:21

now dreams appropriated

30:25

many many times roman happened

30:27

all

30:33

example judy caesar had a dream

30:36

reported , when he was

30:38

less than thirty in which he would

30:40

have sex his mother

30:45

and this dream was used politically

30:48

many many years later crossed

30:51

, the rubicon rubicon and

30:53

invaded a rome and and

30:55

caused civil war this dream

30:57

was used at this moment

31:00

politically to say that he was say

31:02

that the dream was actually of good a

31:05

good a premonition because he was having

31:07

intercourse his mother so he was taking control

31:10

the mother

31:34

in all different cultures a

31:36

dream could decide a war dream

31:38

could decide the end of a war dream

31:40

could decide dream whether kings would

31:42

marry or or or or

31:45

make peace with different a their

31:47

neighbors

31:55

in the way until the end of

31:58

middle ages dreams were the only the

32:00

only possible lighten future

32:03

was noisy he was metaphorical

32:06

he was imprecise but was nevertheless

32:09

some sort of insight into

32:15

however in the past five hundred

32:17

things started develop

32:20

very strongly which opposed

32:22

the importance have dreams and those are

32:25

capitalism on one hand and science

32:27

on the other hand capitalism science have

32:29

been developing hand hands

32:32

together intertwined one feeding

32:35

the the other and

32:37

then after development of of proper

32:40

science in that

32:42

i think is related capitalism the

32:45

, future became technical

32:47

scientific

32:51

with the advent of science and

32:53

reason the need for mysticism

32:55

and finding meaning through dreams became

32:58

less relevant during the enlightenment

33:00

in europe dream interpretation began

33:02

be seen as mere superstition

33:05

philosophers like rene cart trivialized

33:08

dreams this trend continued

33:10

with the rise of modern science because

33:13

why would you need a dream to help you predict future

33:15

events when you have a scientific method

33:17

test ideas and algorithms

33:19

that can base predictions on data

33:22

however i think it's it was mistake

33:24

it is mistake for us to

33:27

replace one with the

33:29

other because what does

33:31

the kind of insight we can get from

33:33

dreams is very different from

33:35

insight we get from science

33:45

in the nineteenth in early twentieth century

33:47

some philosophers and psychologists

33:49

began recognize and study dreams

33:54

one particular scientist from austria

33:56

sparked movement with radical

33:58

idea about

34:00

dreams can help us understand mental

34:02

illness that

34:05

story when come

34:31

hi

34:33

from chicago illinois

34:36

and you listening to line

34:39

from npr

34:43

support for this podcast and the following

34:45

message come from k buxbaum in

34:47

support of the david gilkey and zabala

34:49

to memorial fund established

34:52

to strengthen in p r's commitment to

34:54

training and protecting journalists in high

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risk environments

35:01

part three what

35:03

dreams may come

35:19

for much of human history dreams

35:21

were considered messages from deep the

35:24

were source of inspiration of ideas

35:26

in even guided the way many people live

35:28

their lives but beginning

35:30

sixteenth century

35:31

in europe dreams lost much

35:33

of their power the , church

35:36

saw dreams as possible source of sin

35:39

sin regarded dream interpretation

35:41

as interpretation one writer

35:43

thought they were merely the result of

35:45

indigestion and by the nineteenth

35:48

century most scientists saw dreams

35:50

is just something our bodies do while we

35:52

sleep nothing more than the wiring

35:54

hidden inside the walls house as

35:57

long as functioned that was all that mattered

36:00

then in the late eighteen hundreds and

36:02

austria a man came along

36:04

who question that approach

36:07

i started my professional activity as a neurologist

36:09

trying to bring relief to my neurotic patients

36:13

sigmund freud was one of the first

36:15

scientists who thought deeply about dreams

36:18

and attempted better understand science

36:20

behind and the emotions

36:22

behaviors they conjured when

36:25

freud was a young he

36:27

was scientists he saw himself as scientist

36:30

he was trying himself in different

36:33

fields of science of neuroscience at

36:36

, time scientists were trying to

36:38

understand the connection between the brain

36:40

and the mind the body and consciousness

36:43

one of the most common diagnoses of the time

36:45

was hysteria it was often

36:48

it kind of catch all diagnosis for people

36:50

especially women who might of been suffering

36:52

from symptoms like depression anxiety

36:55

shortness of breath insomnia and

36:57

even something called sexual forward

37:02

sigmund freud was the medical student studying

37:04

hysteria he came to believe that it

37:06

was a psychiatric disorder and

37:08

after graduating he opened his own private

37:10

practice treat patients and further

37:13

study the condition and until

37:15

the very end of the nineteenth century he

37:17

was pursuing a a

37:20

clinical work that was very

37:22

strongly rooted in the the

37:24

neuroscience and psychiatry but

37:27

then his father died

37:31

i find difficult to right just now the

37:34

old man's death has affected me profoundly

37:37

with his peculiar mixture of deep wisdom

37:39

and fantastic light heartedness had

37:42

significant effect on my life

37:46

i now feel quite uprooted he

37:50

entered crisis and

37:52

had the major

38:23

and this is when he he undergoes

38:25

big change

38:28

there still very little happening to me externally

38:31

but internally something very interesting last

38:35

four days my self analysis continued

38:38

in dreams presented me with

38:40

most valuable elucidation and clues

38:45

is when he produces his seminal

38:47

book interpretation of dreams and and creates

38:49

a new a new a field

38:52

of of knowledge we call psychoanalysis

38:56

these findings grew a new science psychoanalysis

38:59

a part of psychology a new method of

39:01

treatment of the neurosis

39:04

psychoanalysis the idea that investigating

39:06

the unconscious often through dreams

39:09

can possibly treat the psychological symptoms

39:11

patients or suffering conditions

39:14

or neuroses people still experience

39:16

today like depression anxiety

39:18

obsessive behavior and so on using

39:21

his own dreams and his patience roy

39:24

put forth in idea in a book called the

39:26

interpretation of dreams would become

39:29

his lasting legacy

39:31

what frighten that was so important that

39:33

he reclaims dreams

39:36

something meaningful

39:40

even after freud published his book it's

39:43

like everything instantly changed dreams

39:46

still mostly dismissed and the

39:48

at community why because nineteenth

39:50

century science was completely

39:53

sure the dreams dreams were nonsense

39:56

that nobody should pay attention dreams they

39:58

reflected at mo bad

40:01

bad digestion

40:03

it would take eight years to sell the first

40:05

six hundred copies of the interpretation

40:07

of dreams and for the first year and a half

40:09

no scientific journal reviewed it besides

40:12

some psychological ones where freud's

40:14

book received negative reviews one

40:17

prominent psychologist warned that play

40:19

uncritical minds would be delighted to

40:21

join to join play with ideas and

40:24

would end up and complete mysticism

40:26

and chaotic arbitrariness

40:29

people not believe in my facts and thought my

40:31

theory unsavory resistance

40:33

was strong unrelenting

40:37

and people that believed that dreams had

40:39

the meaning were the superstitious

40:41

people that were not educated

40:43

that were buying those those manuals

40:46

that the know those both fiction manuals

40:48

that a give you were fixed a

40:50

relationship between dream symbols

40:53

and specific meaning something

40:55

that is very old that to exists today

40:58

right and and freud was able to

41:00

to say that they were both wrong what

41:04

is common all these dreams obvious

41:06

completely satisfied wishes excited during

41:09

the day which remain unrealized

41:11

they are simply and undisguised simply

41:13

realizations of wishes would

41:16

say

41:18

dreams have meaning they are related

41:20

to people's lives they are

41:22

not something that can be dismissed

41:24

but they also cannot be predetermined

41:28

if you and make sense of somebody's dream

41:31

you need to understand that person you

41:33

need to listen to that person you need

41:35

to share the context of that person

41:37

this person this this done in psychoanalysis in

41:39

psychotherapy in so

41:42

fraud was able to say yes

41:44

dreams of a meaning but this meaning if

41:46

centred in the dreamer this

41:50

idea that people dream for reason

41:52

that it's a way cope with

41:54

conscious mind can't do while it's awake

41:57

was radical that by reflecting

41:59

on your dreams and fronting something

42:01

deep inside of you that followed like

42:04

a shadow he didn't know was there

42:06

dreams are meaningful

42:09

if we pay attention to them so

42:11

it's so it's that we build

42:13

not just with ourselves we those mental

42:15

creatures that inhabit ourselves

42:21

are minds are filled with with

42:24

creatures that we people people that we

42:26

met people that are fictional

42:28

people that we met long

42:31

time ago in we imagine how they are now so

42:33

those creatures are they they they

42:35

evolve in are minds throughout are

42:37

lives that

42:41

there has been proposed hundred and

42:43

twenty years ago by sigmund freud and

42:45

then kooyong said similar things

42:47

and science dismissed that for long

42:50

period time in in one thing i do

42:52

in my book the oracle night

42:54

is to defend the legacy of psychoanalysis

42:57

and show that in fact many of the

42:59

things that were proposed about dreams at

43:01

turn of twentieth century ended

43:03

, being corroborated verified science

43:25

them wake

43:27

up during night dream right down

43:37

don't don't don't go back

43:39

flying the air

43:42

i felt like i wave

43:45

but i like went up to them and i was like

43:47

please take me with you please take me with you they

43:50

were like you have blood on your head part

43:53

soviet army they accidentally

43:55

blew up this huge effigy

43:57

of stolen i was

44:00

hell bent on proving people that

44:02

that hung out with

44:03

and the actor in

44:06

, then it becomes

44:08

a full blown hurricane full

44:10

blown my car being

44:12

tossed around basically went

44:15

, and

44:17

i found people were rolling refrigerators

44:20

around i've lost my producer

44:23

is drunk and everything goes pieces

44:33

after freud's death in nineteen thirty nine

44:36

it still took some time for his work

44:38

on dreams be taken as serious science

44:41

and even though today most psychologists

44:43

disagree with freud's findings particularly

44:45

as relates to the use of dreams to treat psychological

44:48

conditions other scientists

44:50

have picked up the mantle and dug deeper

44:53

into the science of dreaming

44:55

science of dreaming has evolved are

44:58

many things the were dismissed are

45:00

in the fifties in sixties are the

45:02

hottest science are nowadays

45:05

including lucid dreaming in the

45:07

eighties in nineties to study

45:10

dreams was was bad for people's

45:12

careers like studying psychedelics

45:14

nowadays it's it's hot and now now

45:16

it's something trending

45:18

after freud there were others who continued

45:20

to pursue the study of dreams and the unconscious

45:23

mind specifically another

45:25

well known psychoanalyst carl jung

45:28

he believed that human beings are connected to each

45:30

other and their ancestors to he shared

45:32

set of experiences that are embedded

45:34

in are dna an idea

45:36

he called the collective unconscious

45:39

we are not isolated right we

45:42

are not living an experience

45:44

each of us that is disconnected

45:46

from everybody rather

45:49

the contrary we have we go through

45:51

things in our lives even though our lives quite different

45:54

we go through things that quite similar we're

45:56

all born we need to be fed

45:59

need be care have we

46:01

grow up we go through puberty so

46:03

all those things right if you if you have

46:06

long life you will go through all those phases

46:08

which are shared

46:10

and time went on more on more studies on

46:12

dreams and the unconscious continued

46:15

build on one another almost one

46:17

hundred twenty five years after freud first

46:19

published the interpretation of dreams

46:22

there is now research that supports the idea

46:24

that dreams can have significant

46:26

impact on waking life

46:29

we had wait until two thousand and ten

46:32

for the first paper that showed

46:35

that , you dream about task

46:37

you become better better

46:39

, they showed that when people

46:41

navigate a virtual

46:44

maze and they dream

46:46

about it become much better navigating

46:49

and that does not happen stay awake

46:51

thinking about or

46:53

if they sleep without dreaming about

46:55

to many a so to so

46:58

dream about something has lot

47:00

doing succeeding doing doing

47:02

that a and this something that

47:04

many many people believed

47:06

many for for ages but

47:09

there was no empirical demonstration

47:11

of that until quite recently

47:20

as all of was playing

47:22

out in scientific

47:24

human experience was changing freud

47:30

grew up during time before electricity was

47:32

widely available when the sun moon

47:34

dictated sleeping patterns when daily

47:37

life rev are and the seasons in

47:39

today's world where sleep is being

47:41

cut short caffeinated drinks are keeping

47:44

us awake and screens vie for

47:46

attention it's become harder

47:48

and harder dream

47:50

we did not evolve to have

47:52

this lack of relationship dreams

47:55

we evolved with

47:57

dreams dreams were important to define

47:59

what

48:01

i think it's a lot of what people are feeling

48:04

melodies the ,

48:06

that we're going nowhere nowhere

48:08

says that we're going alone the says

48:10

the we have no routes that we have

48:12

no connection to the past this

48:15

, is has to do with the arts lack

48:17

of sleep lack dreaming

48:22

people are increasingly sleeping

48:24

later later because there's

48:27

lot to draw our attention

48:30

a lot of stimulation going on

48:32

a lot of work going on and this

48:34

creates a situation in which people will

48:37

go to sleep after midnight and

48:40

they need wake up early anyway so

48:42

that means they will cut short the second

48:44

half have the night will cut short the of rim

48:46

face and therefore they will

48:49

have less they will have less dreamy

48:52

but even they

48:55

have good dreaming the

48:57

fact that the wake up in the morning in

49:01

move right away from away from will

49:03

make the recall of dreams almost

49:05

impost

49:07

you can you remember that you had dream but

49:09

you cannot remember that and

49:12

and this is something that has to discussed

49:14

society because he has profound

49:17

, on people's emotions on people's

49:19

cognitive abilities night if you

49:21

if have bad night to sleep you will

49:23

have cognitive deficits and

49:26

this is like a social noble once

49:29

you wake up like that you will interact

49:31

with other people and this will grow

49:33

and i think many , problems

49:36

the were facing nowadays of intolerance

49:38

intolerance being you know angry

49:40

all time has to

49:42

do with among the things sleep

49:45

and dreaming

49:51

i really feel that we need to

49:54

focus on what is important and

49:56

and the way to do that is to go inward

49:59

to go towards our inner world find

50:02

meaning between the representation

50:04

have ourselves and those mental creatures

50:06

that we carry of us if we have no

50:08

relationship to those it's very hard

50:10

to have ethics very hard to have a

50:13

moral compass moral

50:15

compass will not come from capitalism will

50:17

not come from science only has

50:20

to come from a ,

50:22

relationship inner world and

50:26

this is what dreams all about

50:45

that's it this week's episode i'm

50:47

ranting

50:50

listening to to line from npr this

50:53

episode was produced by me and me

50:55

and lawrence captain

50:57

levinson julie

50:59

victor yves yves was yolanda

51:02

tangan fact checking for episode

51:04

was done by kevin vogel

51:06

thanks also to adriana tapia for her

51:08

production episode deb george

51:10

for editing help tamar charney and

51:12

anagen

51:13

andy thank you casey herman for

51:15

his voice over work this episode

51:17

was mixed by andy heather

51:20

music for this episode was composed by ramin

51:22

and his band drop electric which includes

51:25

marvy marvy sho for anya

51:30

also you want you're voice on r

51:32

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51:34

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51:37

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51:39

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51:41

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51:43

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51:50

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51:52

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51:54

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51:57

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52:00

thanks