0:00

When the Taliban took over in Afghanistan late

0:02

in the summer of twenty twenty one, the

0:04

world had a question for them. Would they

0:06

preserve the rights that women had spent

0:08

two decades fighting for and

0:10

in a lot of cases winning. Pressed

0:12

on this question, Taliban leaders said

0:15

yes, they would. The state policy is

0:17

that we will give every

0:19

right to the female members of our society

0:22

that comprise half the population, their right

0:24

to work, their right to education, and every single

0:26

other right that has been afforded to them in

0:28

Islam. But within weeks, they banned almost

0:31

all girls from going high school. They

0:33

told women to stay at home. Travel was no

0:35

longer allowed. Women were banned

0:37

from appearing on TV dramas or traveling

0:39

more than forty five ish miles from home

0:41

without a male chaperone, and then late last

0:43

year another huge blow. One

0:45

that has the potential to affect not just women,

0:48

but everyone in Afghanistan who

0:50

relies on humanitarian aid. That's

0:52

coming up on today's complaint.

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1:40

It's

1:41

hard to make predictions about a new year

1:43

just as it starts. But you're

1:45

probably safe saying that twenty twenty three

1:47

will be bad for

1:48

Hollywood. All of these companies

1:51

have either announced layoffs or

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have said that they are planning hiring

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freezes or cost cutting in

1:58

the New

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recession in my mind. How a Hollywood

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podcast.

2:16

It's today explained of Newell King all

2:19

of those were strictions. Late last year, the

2:21

Taliban issued more decrease, limiting

2:23

women's rights and freedoms. One of them

2:26

banned women from attending university

2:28

altogether after first restricting

2:30

what subjects they could major in, and

2:32

one decree that women cannot work for the

2:34

non governmental organizations or NGOs

2:36

that are providing aid to millions of Africans.

2:39

According to Taliban's justification, there

2:42

are jobs that women are not

2:44

fit for

2:45

them, and they started from women's

2:47

employment in Security and Defense

2:49

sector, of course. Hosna Jaleel was

2:51

Afghanistan's Deputy Minister of Women's

2:53

Affairs and Deputy Minister for cure

2:56

your

2:56

affairs. And as you might guess, she thinks these restrictions

2:58

on work are ridiculous because for twenty

3:00

odd years, Afghan women did many types of

3:02

jobs. We did have women in police forces.

3:05

We did have women in

3:07

the army. We did have women in the intelligence

3:09

services. And we had civilian women

3:11

who have been working throughout

3:13

the institutions in terms of service delivery

3:15

to the forces. And then we had twenty eight

3:18

percent of the

3:20

civilian civil servants in Afghanistan's

3:22

government. So they are banned

3:24

from all those, I would say, opportunities

3:27

But then they reached a point where they

3:29

signed the decree and issued the decree

3:31

to ban women from showing up in

3:34

their workplace at the international NGOs and

3:36

local NGOs. Any such group

3:38

that continues to employ women will lose

3:40

its license according to the economic ministry.

3:42

In response, four of the largest international

3:45

NGOs upon which country depends

3:47

for decided to suspend

3:49

operations entirely. Next

3:51

phase was to ban women from higher

3:53

education. So their access to education,

3:56

their access to employment, and,

3:58

of course, access to justice. That was the first

4:00

thing we lost. And even

4:02

access to humanitarian aid

4:04

with most of their decreased data is heavily

4:06

affected and negatively affected. The

4:09

only decree they haven't issued yet is

4:11

to dictate how to breathe or should they breathe

4:14

or

4:14

not. The Taliban are

4:16

Afghan. They are Afghan citizens, and husband

4:18

says, That's indicative of the fact that

4:20

Africans themselves are divided on

4:22

women's rights. But some Africans

4:24

have started to push back against these

4:26

restrictions, including crucially

4:29

men. First, the students didn't

4:31

attend their final exams. Students

4:34

quickly showed their opposition to the new

4:36

law Both men and women,

4:38

including at Nangaha University, in

4:40

the city of Jalalabad. Male

4:42

medical students there even walked out

4:44

of their final exam lands to support

4:46

their female classmates. And

4:49

for them, they they had the slogan of

4:51

either all or none.

4:58

And then the university professors, tens

5:00

of them, resigned from their positions.

5:03

They're not gonna teach at at at universities. I'm

5:07

a

5:07

professor. Today, I've brought

5:09

my teaching diplomas and my doctorate.

5:13

From today, I don't need these

5:15

diplomas anymore because this

5:17

country is no place for an

5:18

education. If

5:22

my sister and mother can't study,

5:24

then I don't accept this as an education.

5:27

I will tear this

5:28

up. And then of course women have

5:30

always been on the street and then men join

5:32

them. It was a bright spot because

5:34

we have never had men taking

5:36

the initiative. To stand for women's

5:38

rights in the past and

5:40

so loud and being beaten by the

5:42

Taliban.

5:46

What are you hearing that you're finding it

5:48

hard to get out of your mind? When you talk

5:50

to people in Afghanistan and you hear how

5:52

they're responding, to women effectively

5:54

being cut out of society. What sorts of

5:56

things do friends tell

5:58

you, family tell you, young people

6:00

tell you? First of all, the Africans,

6:02

they are so new to most of

6:04

these civic movements. All

6:07

protestants are expressing themselves on the

6:09

street, but at same time who they are

6:11

dealing with, like the Taliban. Is

6:13

that the right way to express

6:16

themselves or to react or there's a better

6:18

way? To react through

6:20

the system or to work through

6:22

different fractions of the Taliban. Maybe there's

6:24

someone in the Taliban who disagrees with it

6:26

and let's build on that, which is, of course, another

6:29

complicated situation. So

6:31

that that's the first reaction. Like, what should we

6:33

do so that we can get a a reverse

6:35

in in that policy or that decree?

6:37

But then at the same time, they're hopeful for

6:40

the next three months because it's

6:42

their winter break in Afghanistan. We have

6:44

the three months winter break. So

6:46

for them because the decrease issued at the

6:48

end of the fall semester, if the reaction

6:51

is strong

6:51

enough, then we do have the chance to

6:53

reverse the decrease. Or

6:55

the policy. If a young woman

6:58

chose to go into university anyway,

7:00

what would she be risking? If you

7:02

said, I'm I'm not gonna I'm not gonna pay attention

7:04

to this. I wanna go to

7:05

school, I'm going to school. What would likely

7:07

happen? Based on what the Taliban have

7:09

done since the last one and a half years,

7:12

to my friends, to my ex colleagues,

7:15

to my very close

7:18

I mean, women who are really close to

7:20

me emotionally. When they have

7:22

done to them, they will not be allowed

7:24

from the doors to enter the university

7:26

campus. If they would resist, of

7:28

course, they would be arrested. They

7:30

would be detained, they will be raped,

7:33

and if they would

7:35

raise their voices or they express themselves,

7:37

they will be killed, brutal. The

7:40

Taliban have banned women

7:42

from working for NGOs. And

7:44

as a result of that, as a way of pushing back,

7:46

some of those organizations have said

7:48

we won't operate in Afghanistan. Do

7:51

you think that is the right decision given

7:53

what's at stake here, which is that millions

7:55

of Afghans are pendant on those organizations

7:58

for food and for basic

7:59

services. I think as painful

8:01

as it sounds to support

8:04

the decision of the international NGOs?

8:07

I do support that decision. Wow.

8:09

I mean, since the very first day. The

8:11

reason is because first, How

8:14

is that possible to

8:16

serve women without engaging

8:18

women? Plus,

8:20

the last twenty years, I've witnessed

8:23

and I've worked with most of these women,

8:25

that women have been divorced

8:28

and leading the initiatives to

8:30

make sure that women are having

8:32

access to those resources, the

8:34

resources available through international NGOs

8:36

or the aid. The

8:38

vulnerable groups, the marginalized groups,

8:40

and the children, and those are the main

8:42

victims of the situation,

8:44

right, the humanitarian crisis. If

8:47

the Taliban are banning women

8:50

from working for those international NGOs

8:52

to deliver humanitarian assistance It

8:54

basically means that international end users

8:56

are allowed to serve only men

8:58

and boys in Afghanistan. And

9:01

if

9:01

it's not for all, it should be for none.

9:03

But at the same time, I also think that if

9:05

the pain is shared, then there won't be a

9:08

collective voice. If men

9:10

go through the same thing, then they shouldn't

9:12

also stand for women. If aid

9:14

organizations stop providing services to

9:16

both men and women, the men

9:18

will eventually have to say something.

9:20

That's correct. Do you have

9:22

family in Afghanistan that depend on

9:24

these NGOs? I do.

9:26

You do. And and you still believe

9:28

that what it's gonna take

9:30

is everybody essentially needs

9:32

to take this hit so that the men

9:34

will stand

9:34

up. In Afghanistan, women has

9:36

never had anything equal to

9:39

men. Never. For the

9:41

international angels, most of

9:43

the funding for these international NGOs

9:45

are coming from democratic

9:47

countries and from people who believes

9:49

in democracy, who believes in gender

9:51

equality, can they justify serving

9:54

only men in Afghanistan? I mean it's

9:56

just just putting my my feet

9:59

in in their shoes. How can

10:01

they justify spending that money

10:03

only on men in Afghanistan? It

10:05

it just affects their core value.

10:08

It it affects the the reason why they are

10:10

in

10:10

Afghanistan. You were in Afghanistan at a

10:12

time in which women achieved extraordinary

10:15

gains. Is there any hope

10:17

of going back to the way it was when you were

10:19

in government? Or do you think Afghanistan is

10:21

essentially gonna be stuck for many

10:23

years in the way that it was in the 1990s?

10:25

The

10:25

first option that the that the women

10:28

would start from where

10:30

where we left in in August twenty

10:32

twenty one, that's that I mean,

10:34

that's not possible. But

10:36

when it comes to would Afghanistan be

10:38

stuck where it was in in

10:40

nineteen nineties, I would say no.

10:43

The Taliban are of course the same.

10:45

I've never thought that the Taliban has ever

10:47

changed, but

10:49

Afghanistan has definitely changed. I

10:52

was a child under the

10:55

previous Taliban regime and the the

10:57

entire nation was silent because

10:59

they had gone through civil war And

11:01

that was worse than the Taliban regime, and

11:03

then they had the Taliban regime. So there

11:05

has been more than a

11:07

decade. Where they didn't have any

11:09

sort of stability. So the people

11:11

have been pretty much silent and things had been

11:13

normalized, the level of violence, the

11:15

level of I would say

11:17

brutal treatment of the Taliban,

11:19

their their policies. They had somehow

11:21

been normalized for people,

11:23

but now it's different. You see

11:25

men and women both together or

11:27

or reacting to the Taliban's decrease,

11:29

and they're pushing them back. But at

11:31

the same time, they're connected to the world.

11:33

They can see what's happening outside the world

11:36

back then Afghanistan was entirely

11:38

locked. But Afghanistan

11:40

and the people they have changed and the

11:42

generation is a different generation. So there

11:44

will be certain pushbacks that Taliban

11:46

has to open up at some point in time,

11:48

but we can't go back where

11:50

we were in in twenty

11:52

twenty one in terms of the

11:54

progress we had. Coming

11:57

up, not all of the Taliban

11:59

are hardliners. A look at what it might

12:01

take to get moderates in a

12:03

position to make decisions.

12:23

It's today explained. I'm New Well King.

12:26

Can you just tell me your name and what you do?

12:29

Hassan

12:29

Abbas. I am a professor

12:32

at National Defense University in

12:34

Washington DC and IT courses

12:36

on

12:36

politics, history, and culture in

12:38

South Asian, Middle East. Professor Abbas

12:40

has also written a forthcoming book

12:42

called The Return of the Taliban.

12:44

And he says the Taliban right now are divided

12:47

between hardliners in the city of Qandahar

12:49

and more moderates in the capital

12:51

Kabul. It is the hardliners

12:53

outside of the capital who are winning

12:55

even if he says they don't quite

12:57

know what they are

12:58

winning. I think Taliban are

13:00

themselves at this point not very

13:02

clear on what their strategy is.

13:07

They are going to a complicated

13:10

and difficult transition from

13:12

being an intelligence group and a

13:14

terrorist group to a group which

13:16

is now responsible for

13:18

running the government. There are so many

13:20

different groups in Taliban. For instance,

13:22

there are some who are

13:24

more religious oriented clerical

13:26

who had spent all their lives in

13:29

Seminary's teaching, religious

13:31

doctrine, and there are others who

13:33

were fighters. Who were military commanders, who

13:35

was fighting on the ground. And then

13:37

there are a third group, for instance, which

13:39

are all criminals involved in

13:41

in drug smuggling. And then there's a fourth

13:43

group of the young people who

13:45

for whom there was no other opportunity, but

13:48

to be employed by Thaliban in the

13:50

areas where Thaliban were strong. So

13:52

at this moment, there's an internal

13:54

struggle between these groups. The hard

13:56

line is want a

13:58

very dogmatic, extremist world

14:00

view. Those who are interacting with

14:02

the US and other international organizations

14:05

in Doha they want a

14:07

relatively open society,

14:09

not open, not liberal in a sense that we think

14:11

in the west, but somewhat

14:13

what what can be seen as a as a

14:15

decent society. The reason I

14:17

said there's no clear strategies because

14:19

at this moment, they're all struggling

14:21

internally to see who

14:23

becomes dominant. Can we

14:31

assume that the hardliners within the Taliban

14:33

are winning? That is

14:35

tragically true. At this moment, Mueller

14:38

Hibatollah Ghonsada, who is the

14:40

supreme leader, so to say, who

14:42

sits in Gandhi, interestingly, not in the

14:44

capital city. He took over the group's

14:46

leadership when his predecessor, Octav

14:48

once soared, was killed in a US

14:50

drone strike. He has

14:53

authority over the Taliban's political,

14:55

religious, and military affairs and

14:57

is from one of the most powerful Khashdown

14:59

plans And this is more like

15:01

following the Iran model, if I call that, where

15:03

there's a supreme leader. And then

15:05

there are others who

15:07

are in Kabul, who are cabinet

15:09

ministers, who have more exposure. But at

15:11

this moment, the clerical hardliners

15:14

and the extremists who

15:16

are very retrogressive, I should say, I

15:18

have a dominant role. Professor

15:20

Abbas, why do the hardliners

15:22

have upper hand. How did that evolve over the

15:24

last year or so? The

15:26

expectation was that the relatively

15:29

moderate elements or pragmatic elements

15:32

that they will have a upper hand and they will form

15:34

the government. However, I

15:36

think it was the former Iran president,

15:39

Ashavani.

15:40

Who disrupted the whole

15:42

plan? The shock has come that he has

15:44

actually left the country altogether and

15:46

is now in Taishiki's done a

15:48

shift of honey the the day he fled.

15:51

He disrupted the whole

15:53

possibility of a interim

15:55

government arrangement So it does

15:57

beg the question, where is this

15:59

transition agreement up to? Is even

16:02

is there is there a transition

16:04

agreement for negotiators in Doha

16:06

to to agree to to

16:08

consider. So it really

16:10

adds to the uncertainty as we get

16:12

into this Sunday evening here in

16:14

Kabul, window. If there was an interim

16:16

arrangement through negotiations between

16:19

Taliban and US and the Afghan

16:21

government, then there would have been

16:23

a a relatively smooth

16:25

transition in a sense that the

16:27

interim government surely would have

16:29

representatives from Shavani's

16:31

government, other civil society elements, and

16:33

Taliban. But the way

16:36

things turned out, when Ashavani along with all

16:38

his colleagues fled all

16:40

these well known political leaders. We

16:42

used to call them warlords and and

16:44

very, very powerful ethnic

16:46

groups with the militant groups as

16:48

well. They all fled, some to

16:50

Pakistan, some to Turkey, some

16:52

to Doha. There was not even a

16:54

single fire shot, even in

16:56

anger, in Kabul. It was very

16:58

strange. So a road

17:00

was and the pathway was laid out for

17:02

the hard line is among the Taliban who just

17:04

came in and said, look, everyone ran away

17:06

with relatively moderate elements, they

17:09

got kind of sidelined because

17:11

the hotline has said, this is all about

17:13

our victory, our worldview.

17:15

The fact is that a trillion dollar that

17:17

we spend, all the security forces that

17:19

were built with support from

17:21

the United States primarily, but

17:24

NATO and other countries, people have

17:26

a legitimate question to ask, where are all

17:28

those people? Why they never put

17:30

up any resistance to Taliban?

17:32

So about what's happening to women in

17:35

Afghanistan, what all the other terrible

17:37

things, atrocities are

17:39

happening. It's not only Taliban who and

17:41

hardline is in Thaliban who I would

17:43

blame. I would actually blame also

17:45

those who were supposed to fight and

17:48

a stand for

17:48

that, and they are nowhere to be seen

17:51

also. Historically, one of the

17:53

problems in Afghanistan has been

17:55

this tug of war between hard liners and more moderates.

17:58

And we see what happens when the hard

18:00

liners win as they have in

18:02

this case. What would it take for

18:04

more moderates within the

18:06

Taliban to be the ones making the

18:08

decisions? I

18:10

think one of the very important factors

18:12

at play here is international

18:13

engagement. Because one of the major

18:16

disputes between Ganderhart the

18:18

hardliners and the moderate elements

18:20

is that the the hardliners

18:22

want a total control.

18:24

They think they need no support and

18:26

help from anywhere else, whereas the moderator

18:29

elements argue that we have now

18:31

inherited a different Avanistan. There's

18:33

a new banking system at

18:35

play, there are imports and exports, the

18:37

advance that even the Thalimah need international

18:40

revenues to to buy things from the

18:42

international market. The

18:44

moderate elements are saying we

18:46

need to continue to engage with the

18:48

West, and some regional countries are doing that. China

18:50

is continuously engaged. Whose biggest fan,

18:52

for example, is still providing

18:55

free electricity. So the moderator

18:57

elements are are green. We

18:59

need electricity which is a new generation

19:01

system. We need our, if

19:03

not, five g, at least, three g,

19:06

so that our telephones and mobile

19:08

phones will work And

19:10

the hard line is perhaps are

19:12

not I read somewhere actually in

19:15

one of the interviews I came to

19:17

know that the leader in

19:19

Gandhiar, even has

19:21

no cellphone. So that doesn't matter to him.

19:23

But for the cabinet members and other

19:25

officials, other bureaucrats, security senior

19:28

officials in police and military,

19:30

they all need to be connected.

19:32

They know that they can stay connected

19:34

with the world. Their mobile phones

19:37

can work and their electricity can

19:39

work only if there is

19:41

some international recognition even

19:43

if it if it's not diplomatic recognition at this

19:46

point, but some engagement. So

19:48

that engagement, if that continues

19:51

to happen, is going to

19:53

empower the moderate elements, and

19:55

that's my theory.

19:56

And I wonder about the flipside of

19:58

that. Right? So you say engagement

20:00

could empower moderate elements of the Taliban. That makes

20:02

a lot of sense. But should those same countries

20:04

that have some leverage in Afghanistan

20:07

say to the hardliners in the Taliban, we're

20:10

not gonna give you electricity

20:12

if you don't let women back into

20:14

society. Should there be a more

20:16

aggressive quid pro quo?

20:17

Hundred percent absolutely. I

20:20

think Qatar has a huge

20:23

leverage there, UAE, Turkey,

20:25

These three countries are currently competing

20:27

for big contracts of security of

20:29

the Kabul Airport. Many of their actually

20:31

power generation projects as well.

20:34

These three countries together along with

20:36

Pakistan also because they have a

20:38

huge connection and role

20:40

to play in Afghanistan. Uzbekistan. I was

20:42

recently in Uzbekistan. And

20:44

I I asked this question to some of the people

20:46

because many of the government officials and

20:48

think tankers and academics

20:50

were very critical of their own government's

20:53

policy to be very engaged with

20:55

Taliban. And I asked them, so why are

20:57

you engaging? There were various

20:59

reasons But one was that, look, we don't want

21:01

that the extremist elements in Afghanistan

21:03

to succeed because that will start

21:05

having an impact on our society

21:08

as well. So Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, the

21:10

two countries which are providing them electricity

21:12

and gas can actually say

21:14

that, okay, we can switch it off as

21:17

well. But that requires a

21:19

coordinated, cohesive regional

21:21

strategy. But the challenge is that all

21:23

these regional countries are competing with

21:25

each other with financial

21:27

trade interests in Afghanistan, they

21:29

are not talking to each other, and

21:31

they don't want to be seen as an

21:33

extension of at this moment of the

21:35

US policy. Because the US policy

21:37

got discredited in the region for a variety

21:39

of reasons rightly or wrongly. There there's

21:41

no leader at this moment also.

21:44

Who's calling the shots? But

21:46

but what I'm not clear on is, what is the

21:48

leverage that the United States actually has

21:50

here? We still have the

21:52

money the Iran reserves that

21:54

three point five billion dollars. More than half of the

21:56

country's forty million people

21:58

face acute hunger. The US

22:00

president has signed an order to

22:02

redistribute the funds and keep them out of the

22:04

Taliban's hands. They desperately need

22:06

that money. There's another leverage also,

22:08

which is about security. Taliban

22:10

have been demanding and asking for

22:13

security support to fight

22:15

Ayesuke and

22:15

bash. Blood covers the walls and

22:18

ceilings of this mosque in

22:20

Kandahar. The aftermath of a deadly suicide bombing.

22:22

More than three dozen people were killed

22:24

in the explosions and scores

22:26

more were injured. The so called

22:28

Islamic state group has said it was behind the

22:31

attack. The Taliban consider

22:33

IS their enemy and have vowed

22:35

to hunch down the perpetrator and

22:37

bring them to justice under Islamic law.

22:39

I find myself,

22:40

unfortunately, feeling very very

22:43

pessimistic if only because of

22:45

what has happened in Afghanistan over the last couple

22:47

of decades? And and if only because

22:49

it seems like women, at

22:51

the moment, just do not have a seat at

22:54

table. Is there any part of this that

22:56

makes you optimistic? Pessimism

22:58

is no answer is

23:00

no policy

23:00

answer. Pessimism

23:04

takes us in a totally different direction. So

23:06

I am optimistic for two or

23:08

three primary reasons. Even if

23:10

Thalibani have not changed in their illiological sense,

23:12

avanistan has changed. The

23:14

tens of billions of dollars of in

23:16

investment in building new institutions

23:19

in Afghanistan I think they

23:21

will show an impact at some

23:23

point. On social media, every

23:25

day we are hearing from

23:27

lion's who are getting us these

23:29

small clips and this is Avan Dai

23:31

supposeda which is very active as well. This

23:33

is new. They

23:36

all want a

23:38

different Avanstan. It is not that the

23:40

Taliban's hard diner extremist views

23:42

are being implemented without being challenged.

23:44

If Taliban are going to

23:46

continue with these trustees against women

23:49

and other minorities, the

23:51

regional countries ultimately are going to push

23:53

back strong as well.

24:04

Professor Hassan Abbas, his forthcoming book is

24:06

the return of the Taliban, Afghanistan,

24:09

after the Americans left.

24:11

And earlier, we talked to host Najal, she's

24:14

a former official in the Afghan

24:16

government. Today's show was produced by Victoria

24:18

Chamberlain edited by

24:20

Matthew Colette engineered by Paul Robert

24:22

Mounsey and fact checked by Laura Boehler.

24:24

I'm Newell King. It's

24:26

today explained.