23:59:59

This episode is brought to you by Carvana is in the business of driving you happy. And when you're shopping for a car, there's nothing sweeter than Landing within your budget. Sweet spot. That's why she shopping with carvana. Makes it easy to browse through thousands of cars. You can afford. What's your budget is set. That's what you get. And we won't surprise you with any bogus fees. Sweet. So visit carvana.com, or download the app to shop for vehicle, They'll drive you happy.

1:05

Our. Be one and welcomed up so to

1:07

sixty seven of the true crime all the time

1:09

podcast on my Ferguson and

1:11

with me as always my partner, true crime,

1:13

my gibson Gimme. What's going on, man, a

1:16

man doing good about use I'm doing great,

1:18

yes, my family's home from

1:20

of like little visit to Ska

1:22

ago little were Chicago

1:25

windy city. The up, yeah, girl's

1:27

weekend had good time, but

1:29

they're back, so I liked our, you know

1:31

me, like whenever by together you do. Started

1:34

my new sickness regimen for

1:36

two thousand twenty two yeah

1:39

ride my bike list and little

1:41

so film pretty good about that okay

1:44

my. goal is to lose some

1:46

weight before in las vegas and

1:49

so gotta keep with it and so say you

1:51

make a new right steps For

1:54

that yeah I just need you to help.

1:56

keep me on track Then by

1:58

an all that good food you buy. My come here.

2:00

The record one night a week, one

2:03

night week. You. Are pager

2:05

on shout outs we had corey keep

2:07

him see keep it's candace

2:09

know how some daughter highest level they could

2:11

candace Brett, Bruce say, was going on Brett

2:13

Gillian Turner. A jewel in Grant

2:16

eberhard jumps out or highest level where

2:18

you don't grant Cheryl Vincent jumped out

2:20

at higher than our highest level wow

2:22

like is Cheryl with Zoo Hansen think.

2:24

soup bookshop was going on Brooke Marianne

2:27

Hall jumped out or highest level, say Marianne

2:29

Tanya Castillo, the studio

2:32

Maryland Hein'A was going on I tunes

2:34

man tie Campbell was. Gone all

2:36

mankind. In in last, the not

2:38

least windy burke jumped out the hyslop,

2:41

it's windy we just don't have the windy city to

2:43

and we're never going to the ball good,

2:45

yeah.

2:47

This. Week we selected barrett

2:49

Nilsson, we'll thank you birth, so beret's

2:52

a huge fan of the show, we appreciate all

2:54

the paid transport, the we get

2:56

we had some great pay pal. donations mchale

2:58

Hall gave sizable donation I'll

3:00

make him gala made katie McCormick

3:03

was gonna McCormick Natalie riling

3:05

well as assets riesling disappointed

3:09

that. out and omar romero

3:11

That well, they keep us on. Though

3:14

we appreciate all this. Gibbs

3:16

right now on to from all time

3:18

and solved, we have an episode out on

3:20

the two thousand and six murder of

3:22

seventeen year old Candace Hills,

3:25

so we're headed to Colorado. It's

3:27

good case, jump over there and take listen kid,

3:29

was very challenging young woman

3:32

and had great future ahead

3:34

of her. Unfortunately, some tragic events

3:36

happened day and we're dive into those. So

3:39

make sure you check that out. Hi.

3:41

Buddy, are you to get into the sub soda

3:43

true crime of time I am ready we're

3:46

talking about the infamous family

3:48

annihilate or John lives as a big

3:50

case it? Is big case, you know, we can

3:52

go back and forth Ray, we do some of the lesser

3:55

know, which I know people really likes

3:57

voting, the also like it when. We do some of them.

4:00

More well known from time to time,

4:02

you from the outside the list

4:04

seem like a perfectly normal thing.

4:07

Living in the city of Westfield,

4:09

New Jersey, there's that was still New Jersey, yeah.

4:12

The watcher of Westfield and really

4:14

in of the list case came

4:16

up in that episode, but it's come up any number

4:18

of cases are how's that have

4:20

occurred in New Jersey, John

4:23

List was an account. His wife

4:25

Helen stayed at home. The children

4:27

attended the local school and they were active

4:30

in sports in the theater they

4:32

went to church. The an id,

4:34

you know, their neighbors and all their friends

4:37

viewed them as. Good

4:40

people, religious people, but

4:42

in reality, storm was brewing

4:44

within the fan. The and it all came

4:46

to breaking point on November

4:48

ninth, nineteen seventy one when

4:51

John did the unthinkable. He

4:53

murdered his entire family. In

4:55

any flood down? John was

4:57

on the run for eighteen years. The

5:00

for reality TV

5:02

finally brought him to justice.

5:05

There's lot right in this case that

5:07

we're going to cover number one,

5:09

just the idea. The

5:12

May and murdering his entire

5:15

fan. It's hard to grapple. Man

5:19

you, for him to be able to evade

5:21

the law for eighteen years

5:23

yeah kind of amazing really if you think

5:25

about it or and then to be quiet

5:28

Hi. The publicity

5:31

that was generated by A

5:33

television show. The case has

5:35

a lot of different facets, yeah, really

5:38

does, and. They want to people

5:40

will recall. Some of those, oh

5:42

yeah, I mean, this was or something

5:44

the definitely played out in the media, especially

5:47

at the end. When he was

5:49

captured. The on a meal list

5:52

was born in Bay City Mission. The

5:54

parents, John and Omagh, list

5:56

his father was sixty one

5:58

and his mother was done. The A when

6:00

he was born. John was raised

6:02

in the Missouri. He nods

6:05

section of Lutheran is on. The

6:07

group of German hear it. Oh,

6:10

okay, his mom and dad. The

6:12

had a pretty big age disparity,

6:15

yeah. I'm heard of

6:17

men having children in their

6:19

sixties it. happens

6:21

again out and for sure I'm not going to

6:23

be one of those men. In your

6:25

wife and I can be one those when enough, no

6:28

absolutely not, I'm not saying

6:30

there's anything wrong with it at all know

6:32

what I'm saying is for me. can't

6:35

imagine. The

6:38

in eighty years old. The

6:40

time that my son or daughter

6:42

graduates from high school. The

6:44

like that would be so strange, and in the

6:47

second thing is, just don't have the energy. At

6:49

my age now. Let

6:52

alone sixty one to

6:54

go back to getting up changing

6:56

diapers. Running around

6:58

after a toddler who's getting into everything

7:01

I just couldn't do, it was just as be honest

7:03

you would be changing diapers anyway, changed

7:05

a lot of diapers list on around

7:07

you, it may change denier's hours. No diapers.

7:10

Growing up, John was alone.

7:13

The replied by himself: "He really didn't

7:15

talk to anyone outside his

7:17

family or the church. Then.

7:19

Parents discouraged him from participating

7:22

in worldly activities like dancing

7:25

was spotless and will get footloose situation

7:27

absolutely wonderful us to, oh,

7:29

no, I never actually saw the remake.

7:32

So did don't think it was called footloose to them

7:34

that wasn't having was just called footloose

7:36

is just a remake I never actually saw them?

7:39

The John said that he was resentful. His

7:42

parents for how strict they were

7:45

he, said that his father was cold

7:47

and distant The mother.

7:50

We don't. Right, he said

7:52

that she was mother. In

7:54

one pair, the was at one extreme. In

7:57

his mom was the other. The Army.

8:00

You can see how somebody might be resentful,

8:02

right? I'm allowed to dance,

8:04

can't participate in new

8:06

of certain types of activities

8:08

and then I'm not getting. The

8:11

attention from my father. I'm

8:13

getting too much attention from my

8:15

mother rate, it is basically what

8:17

he was saying. John served

8:19

in World War Two was a private. They

8:22

also served in the Korean War

8:24

as reservist. That the Army

8:26

with the rank of first loot and. And

8:29

here and Bronze Star. In world

8:31

war two. The was also held as

8:33

p. o. w. While fighting in

8:35

German.

8:36

The can impressive said a pretty good

8:39

war. record You'd have to

8:41

give him that. John

8:43

met his wife Helen tail. In

8:45

nineteen, fifty one.

8:47

He was a widow and single mother

8:49

from Virginia that's. where

8:51

john was stations as an officer

8:53

during the korean war Oh, and

8:55

announced that she was pregnant just

8:57

one month into their courtship. Then,

9:00

as soon as they finalize their wedding

9:02

plans, she confessed to John

9:04

that she wasn't actually pregnant, though.

9:07

I'm not sure how well that went over. They

9:09

can maybe not as well as you would think it. What

9:12

got married, yeah, so?

9:15

It couldn't have wrecked to that part,

9:17

at least there was another bombshell.

9:19

That Helen didn't disclose until

9:22

after they were married, and that was

9:24

the fact that she had Syphilis see

9:26

I would be a. The important part.

9:29

The premier's discussion. The

9:31

not only. I'm not pregnant

9:33

but. The have, Syphilis.

9:36

Well, apparently she got it from her first

9:38

husband. Never got treatment

9:40

for it. The reporting gives

9:43

his says it was late. No

9:45

longer contagious. Then.

9:48

That would be a big deal, sure what? How

9:50

one suffered from severe? Flattered.

9:53

Which progress to brain atrophy

9:56

as the years pass? The occasionally

9:58

suffered from my out. The nation.

10:01

Because it's the first. I'm sure that

10:03

the had lot to do with it, he didn't specifically

10:06

say that in the. The reporting

10:08

that I saw by. You've heard

10:11

that before from people who

10:13

are we're contracted Syphilis and

10:16

he ended up affecting their brain.

10:19

After getting out of the military, John

10:21

earned a bachelor's and master's

10:23

degree in business administration

10:25

from the University of Michigan. whereas

10:27

we would say that school up north, yeah, exactly.

10:31

That he did beat us this year so we can. Really

10:34

rub it in at all to they really beaters,

10:36

they didn't hear the family settled

10:38

in Michigan with Helen's daughter Brent.

10:41

Brenda got pregnant at age sixteen

10:43

and was sent to home for unmarried

10:46

mother. Those pretty big back, then it

10:48

really wasn't the still surprises me

10:50

that they actually. That back then

10:52

there, they just they saw it as such a.

10:55

What's the word I'm looking for such bad

10:57

thing the negative? Negative

11:00

thing that they didn't even

11:02

want to be associated with their

11:04

own daughter that and want their daughter

11:06

in their home. The hell they? Yeah,

11:09

they would send them off to use some

11:11

place until they had the baby, and it

11:13

kinda stinks really when you think about deserve

11:16

that. The young girls were treated

11:18

that way can of as pariah.

11:22

Yeah. John began successful

11:24

career as an accountant but. There

11:27

was pattern. Yeah, that would

11:29

soon emerge in his life. The

11:32

on felt spiritually superior.

11:34

The problems getting along with others

11:37

you really couldn't hold on to a job

11:39

for more than just few years

11:41

any when into debt. Trying

11:43

to live wealthy wife's.

11:46

Okay. He wouldn't be the first

11:48

person to. How better?

11:51

The many people have been down that road, well,

11:53

lot of people live above their means

11:56

that happens, I get into trouble financially

11:58

doing it. Then. John Hamm'a

12:00

a high I Q.

12:02

What it was also said that he was a

12:04

perfectionist. But also a. Trouble

12:07

managing people. Which is problem

12:09

if you're going to be in the business world when

12:12

he also couldn't make compromise.

12:15

So your those two facts

12:17

are going to affect your career

12:20

negative.

12:21

I wonder how much of that comes

12:23

from being a perfectionist thinking

12:26

that you're the smartest guy in the room. Okay,

12:29

do you didn't have trouble relating

12:32

to the people that work for you? So

12:35

you have a high? time managing

12:37

them. The hard for you to compromise

12:40

with. You're perfectionist

12:42

and you'd think you're always right, it's

12:44

problem for sure the person that believes are

12:46

always right.

12:47

They don't need to make compromises, cause they know

12:49

their rights reserved, for just do it my way,

12:52

no compromise need. Those are

12:54

people that are not fun to work for sure they're really

12:56

not.

12:57

In nineteen, sixty one, John got

12:59

his first taste of a wealthy lifestyle

13:02

when he landed of managerial

13:04

job with Xerox.

13:07

Really good company back in the deter was.

13:09

the went on company trips to Europe

13:12

and he could then afford luxuries

13:15

like Waterford Crystal. The

13:17

john was fired in nineteen sixty five.

13:20

The just couldn't keep up. The couldn't

13:22

do the job. Well, when you're a perfectionist.

13:25

It's hard to. The but

13:27

sometimes right because you're always worried that

13:29

things have to be done certain way.

13:32

And you won't move past that until you get

13:34

exactly what you want, yeah, I mean think

13:36

back about the job that we had

13:38

you and our time working together.

13:41

The water deadline's right things

13:43

needed to be done by a certain time.

13:45

If you have that perfectionist

13:48

type of men town.

13:50

Does it make it very tough for you

13:52

to juggle all of these

13:54

deadlines? Because you can't let

13:56

this one thing go because you don't

13:58

think it's Then. Yet,

14:01

post. So you

14:03

could sometimes maybe spend the whole day

14:05

on one task

14:07

that another person to do adequately

14:10

right in forty five min. Goes

14:13

that who's got my monkey, you know, get a

14:15

pass that around? Okay. That

14:17

is that real sanger had just something you

14:19

made out because I don't believe I've ever heard the rule

14:21

saying joker we will go with

14:24

that. The John gunfire,

14:26

but? He landed in even better

14:28

job. The was hired as vice president

14:31

of the first National Bank of

14:33

Jersey said, "And are you?" This

14:35

is when the lists moved to West

14:37

Bill New Jersey. Nineteen, sixty

14:40

five at this time. John,

14:42

we're so the bay he made a good salary.

14:45

They purchased an old Victorian mansion,

14:47

Cold breeze know. And

14:50

they paid one hundred thousand dollars for the home, while

14:52

back and sixty five, as lot as good

14:55

chunk of money, would you think that would be

14:57

today people who will be before? They

15:00

go. One point, two, ok

15:02

yeah, I like that, like that you've been

15:04

off lately with some of your calculations.

15:07

I'm not going to poo that. When

15:10

popular, aka my mom. Now

15:12

he was more than they could afford, even

15:15

though he was making a good salary, but

15:17

they wanted to live ten

15:19

of wealthy lifestyle. Then

15:21

I don't know if it was. All

15:24

of them or more, so John

15:27

and Hell and. The put down fifty

15:29

thousand dollars in the house. They

15:31

borrow ten thousand from John's

15:33

mother. [Woman] John

15:36

remodeled the third floor of the house's

15:38

and apartment for his mother. The

15:40

of we just take a step back right, things

15:42

are going well. The good job.

15:45

Family. Nice new home

15:48

in very good neighborhood we've talked about

15:50

Westfield, right? The number

15:52

of times and different episodes

15:54

actually kind of priest Teja's job back

15:56

in that time, right to be VP

15:59

of low. The bank. So you're

16:01

saying it wasn't prestigious job.

16:04

There are four years ago. The same

16:07

since eyes is pass or VP

16:09

like you know they. just given

16:11

amount like and there are angry

16:14

Then they had this neighbor Harry devil.

16:17

In his son day, they went over to say

16:19

hello to the new thing. Harry had

16:21

painted mural inside the mansion for

16:23

the previous own. They saw

16:25

that the neighbors had sons his age.

16:28

And so he was hoping new. The

16:31

going to.

16:32

Make some new friends, right? Some Playmate,

16:34

according to nj.com,

16:36

John list,

16:38

open the door, accepted

16:40

the pie that they brought over and told them.

16:43

Thank

16:43

you very much. But we like to

16:46

keep to ourselves over here. Well,

16:48

but

16:49

he kept, I kept the pie, but

16:51

basically said, thanks, but no,

16:53

thanks. And

16:56

this is the exact reason why I

16:58

don't try to get. to know my neighbors,

17:00

all that much. I don't want

17:02

for someone to take my pie

17:05

and then basically say, thanks,

17:07

but no, thanks. And shut the door in face. My

17:09

ego can't hate that, but

17:11

you would take the pie, someone brought it to you and

17:14

say pretty much what John list. exactly?

17:17

We do like to keep to ourselves.

17:21

Needless to say, Give's On was not a friendly

17:23

neighbor, yeah, this was the type

17:25

of guy who chased kids who

17:27

would cut across his lawn. The

17:30

one time apparently true gravel, Dave

17:32

Dublin. While he was playing at

17:34

a construction site next door. The

17:37

also threw rocks at Dave's pet

17:39

don't. Can we really need is not

17:41

for minute?

17:43

With that fat diet, so which part

17:45

is throwing you the rock throwing or

17:47

the pet donkey, the that donkey

17:49

is got me thrown, yeah?

17:51

I didn't know any one growing up

17:53

who had a pet donkey. John

17:55

was also known around town for

17:58

mowing the lawn in a suit. Hi.

18:01

Man. The thing. The eating your

18:03

knickers with fork and knife good

18:05

seinfeld reference. That imagine

18:08

driving through the neighbor? Then

18:10

you see guy outside all

18:13

dressed up looking like an executive

18:15

year and he's pushing the mower

18:18

back and forth across the loss, I

18:20

don't even like to do it in shorts

18:22

and a tee shirts I can't imagine sweating

18:25

through a nice suit.

18:27

It just doesn't make any sense is this is not

18:29

needed, you know?

18:30

But is he trying to give off the air

18:33

that? There were so rich,

18:35

we're so fancy. That I cut

18:37

the grass in a suit and tie their. Maybe

18:40

he was. Now, with said that Helen

18:43

was plus. Glad she almost

18:45

never left the house. Nineteen

18:48

sixty six John was fired from

18:50

the bank, so that lasted maybe year,

18:52

maybe was over grass stains on his superyachts

18:55

or so, yeah.

18:56

Really, he never kept a regular job

18:59

after this.

19:00

That he did go to the train station every

19:02

morning dressed in a suit. And

19:04

he would sit at the train station, just

19:07

read. He pretended to work for

19:09

about six miles. Then

19:11

and he refused to file for unemployment.

19:14

Instead, he took out second mortgage

19:16

on the house. Kind of strange,

19:18

that type of pride, right? The too

19:20

proud to. They

19:22

gonna point, man. If you're gonna sit

19:24

there and. Borrow

19:26

money. The go more in debt.

19:29

This to work. They face.

19:32

The I'm in. Let's face

19:34

it, obviously not telling

19:36

his wise. If he's going to

19:38

all the trouble to. The

19:41

act as though he's going to work every

19:43

day.

19:43

Was he humiliated, we set

19:46

a righteous guy, had trouble keeping job

19:48

here, lists it out some of the reasons

19:50

why?

19:51

Though maybe to file for

19:53

unemployment would be an admission

19:55

that. No, he was

19:58

in the guy that he thought he was. Sure,

20:00

down. I believe it. John

20:02

eventually got an accounting job

20:04

in New York. That he was fired

20:06

in Nineteen, sixty nine, when the company relocated

20:09

to Long Island. The started sewing

20:11

life insurance, but he really

20:13

just could not make enough money

20:16

to pay the bill. Then let's

20:18

not forget he had some jobs where

20:20

he was making quite a bit of money

20:22

and even then. He

20:24

bought house that was

20:27

beyond his me right, yeah, he

20:29

overstretched them so when

20:31

he started not being

20:33

able to. The land

20:35

these jobs where he was making all this money.

20:38

You've got to know your real tough

20:40

financial against adding some much

20:42

stress to the relationship for sure. That's

20:45

what happened right, all was not well in

20:47

the list house. We've talked

20:49

about John had trouble maintaining job.

20:52

The owed bunch of money on his mortgage.

20:55

Then he started stealing money

20:57

from his mother's two hundred thousand

20:59

dollar savings account. You've

21:02

got to the point gives where he was on the brink

21:04

of for flows. I saw in

21:06

one of the articles where. That

21:08

said, John only made about seventy

21:11

four hundred dollars and nineteen seventy one.

21:13

A horrible money. But it's

21:16

nowhere near I'm sure

21:18

why you know he was used to making.

21:21

I also think yeah, it it's

21:23

tough to buy. The hundred

21:25

thousand dollar home. When

21:28

you're now earning like seven thousand dollars

21:30

a.

21:31

Here is not good for make the payments

21:33

on right anyway. He had the second

21:35

mortgage. They knew nothing about a third

21:37

mortgage on Miles Slow because he can't make

21:39

ends meet. The Joe. What

21:42

does guy and like John listed?

21:45

I'm doing the picture of him as

21:47

someone who cannot admit

21:50

it. The situation he's a.

21:52

The would he do it? Trying to

21:54

figure out way to cover

21:57

it all up. In this time, he does

21:59

it by taking. The, the third more.

22:02

Do you think of a story where that

22:04

ever works out for the good?

22:07

I can either.

22:08

Market. Let's take quick break to talk about

22:10

thrive Market, thrive Market" is and online

22:13

membership based market on a mission

22:15

to make healthy living easy and affordable

22:17

for everyone they'll deliver what. You need so you

22:19

can spend more time on what matters the

22:21

carry, all of your favorite brands

22:24

that don't clean out cheval you can

22:26

shop from ethically sourced parental

22:29

to. Sustainable meat and seafood to

22:31

nontoxic cleaning and beauty products

22:34

I love this place I've been going keto

22:36

lately, so been ordering a lot of great

22:38

keto snacks from thrive Market

22:40

My. wife and I also love their environmentally

22:43

friendly cleaning supplies, thrive

22:45

market vets every item so you

22:47

can trust that if it's there, it's the"

22:50

Exclusive. Why, why with and

22:52

why along why, along why

22:54

with I'm why along

22:56

sixteen getting why

22:58

along sixteen, getting sixteen,

23:01

that's and with getting why

23:03

along that's? I'm sixteen getting

23:06

that's getting sixteen, I'm sixteen

23:08

and exclusive, getting that's sixteen, I'm

23:11

why getting that's I'm sixteen, that's

23:13

getting sixteen, I'm sixteen and

23:15

exclusive, why getting I'm

23:17

sixteen? That's,

23:20

getting I'm, I'm getting

23:25

that's and, along that's

23:27

I'm along that's

23:29

why, I'm getting sixteen, and why,

23:32

along, with, Exclusive, getting why

23:35

that's why sixteen and

23:39

i'm exclusive

23:46

getting why exclusive

23:49

Nineteen, seventy one, John was forty,

23:51

six, Helen was forty six and

23:54

their children, Patricia jaune

23:56

and Frederick. We're sixteen, fifteen

23:59

and thirty. John and Helen had

24:01

been married almost twenty years. Then

24:03

we talked about John Salt.

24:06

Right and the fact that he resented

24:08

the very strict upbringing.

24:11

Then I thought it was a little strange

24:13

that he carried on the same tradition.

24:16

The demanded that his shoulder and have perfect

24:19

manners. They had to

24:21

attend church every week.

24:23

It is White House skip church, he

24:25

got very upset. He disapproved

24:28

of her behavior. Oh, and

24:30

rang. He wasn't afraid to speak

24:32

for mind.

24:33

Especially when she wasn't happy about what was

24:35

going on in. The or mayor. They

24:38

just really wasn't happy that she wasn't acting

24:40

like a. Very good religious.

24:43

Life is would sound like to me

24:45

he had.

24:47

The picture and is my right of how the kids

24:49

she behaves. the had a picture

24:52

of how his wife should

24:54

act at all times and

24:57

when they didn't live up to that, he

24:59

got upset you.

25:01

Then sounded like his wife was getting

25:03

upset because.

25:05

He wasn't doing everything that she thought

25:07

he should be do here.

25:09

You know, he was a perfection is right, so

25:11

he had his image of what?

25:13

The perfect family life should be, yeah, I

25:15

think you're exactly right. The

25:18

him when he realized it wasn't perfect. The

25:20

because when he starts to have a meltdown. Youtube

25:23

that, yeah? Now people said

25:25

that Helen salt like. Really,

25:27

no, was prison. He

25:29

was bed ridden most of the time. She

25:32

develop trouble with her brain. It

25:35

was sad that.

25:36

The years of tranquilizers

25:38

and barbiturates added to it.

25:41

The on medication cost about

25:43

one hundred dollars a week. It's. There's

25:46

lot of money back then. The reading

25:48

John viewed it as financial burden

25:50

survey only make and seventy thousand dollars

25:52

year that point. There's huge burden

25:55

when he's already upside down. Yeah,

25:57

to the point where he had to take out second

25:59

and third. Mortgage and still money

26:01

from his mom and stole money from asthma. Though

26:04

the relationship with Helen was rocky.

26:07

The relationship with the shoulder and was

26:09

rocky. He forbade Patty

26:12

from hanging out with her friends because

26:14

he thought they were bad influences.

26:16

The also hated her boyfriend. This

26:19

guy named Chris Day. Chris

26:21

was twenty years old's Catholic

26:23

and he was an income. That he

26:25

started smoking cigarettes with her friends,

26:28

she began skipping school. Sometimes

26:31

you went home. The talk with her mother.

26:34

Oh, okay? By John

26:36

was outraged. Logan member,

26:38

he as this. Image of the

26:40

perfect family, perfect kids.

26:43

And when they are outside of that mode.

26:46

That throw them off the almost think of it as

26:49

the Norman Rockwell

26:51

painting. Then when somebody

26:53

moves outside of the pose.

26:57

They're supposed to be and. From

26:59

this painting. It's

27:01

as if his world begins

27:03

to crumble, yeah, he can't handle. The

27:06

on even got upset when Patty join the

27:08

theater.

27:09

He was okay with it when

27:11

he thought it was a hard.

27:13

It didn't have he started talking about

27:15

wanting to be an actress. The

27:17

end. He wasn't. Happy

27:20

with that, he just didn't think that was

27:22

an acceptable career. The war.

27:25

The good in own religious

27:27

girl. And this religious

27:29

thing right keeps coming back

27:32

up everything with him. He

27:35

goes back to his childhood,

27:37

his religious upbringing. The

27:39

of the way that his parents treated him.

27:42

The also once caught Paddy with the.

27:45

Read your book. For somebody that's really

27:47

religious. That's probably going to be a problem

27:50

he can be can be. She

27:52

was also telling your friends that she was

27:54

which, and I think that really.

27:58

Though him over the. Paddy

28:00

was afraid of her fall. He

28:02

told a friend in the fall of nineteen, seventy one

28:05

that her dad wanted

28:07

them all day. Kind of premonition.

28:10

The obviously we know what's gonna happen, right? The

28:13

only one time she confessed to her

28:15

drama toads that. Dad

28:17

told the children he was going to kill

28:19

them. The asked if they wanted to

28:22

be buried or creamy. You're

28:24

poor to that one night, John

28:26

asked his family what they wanted to do with their

28:28

bodies after they die. The so

28:30

freaky, you know, as it is child.

28:33

Sitting there in here in your dad, say this kind of stuff

28:35

you're my eyes. One the world's going on

28:38

while the kids were afraid of Sir, I

28:40

think that much is obvious he was very

28:42

strict. Kinda, my

28:45

way or the highway. If you're

28:47

not walking the line

28:49

then. You're going to get. What

28:52

think a lot of parents over

28:54

the years have been very strict,

28:57

I don't know how many parents had gone

28:59

to their children", and said. What

29:01

do you want me to do with your body's after

29:03

you die? The be scared

29:05

to death or you said as a child.

29:08

And it wasn't just Paddy Helen and

29:10

Alma suspected that John

29:13

wanted to kill them to. Five

29:15

boys at the think that. versus

29:18

have been in love with you. The

29:20

my as. The tech to you? The

29:23

her you kill you. Yeah,

29:25

his wife, his mother, his daughter.

29:28

No. You've got along with his sons

29:30

pretty well. The long as they

29:33

behave. And it's been.

29:35

Printed. That John Jr.

29:38

was his favorite. They didn't

29:40

follow the rules. shouted

29:42

it them, he criticize them. The

29:45

middle of sudden in October nineteen

29:47

seventy one John began to act

29:49

little more relaxed than what

29:51

he normally did he.

29:55

The started to be nicer to his shoulder. The

29:57

stopped in forcing some of

29:59

the. "Strict rules as much as he had done

30:02

before", he even let Paddy host

30:04

Halloween party. Which was very

30:06

out of character for him. Then

30:08

he hoped Patty and her boyfriend clean

30:10

up the party afterwards. Okay.

30:14

You would think something strange right based

30:16

on all of the things that we've talked about

30:18

wrote his personality the way

30:20

that he acted. What's going

30:22

on, Dad has changed

30:25

big to. On October fourteenth

30:27

of that year, John applied for gun

30:29

per. The hear the own two guns.

30:32

The and nine millimeter pistole from

30:35

his time and will war two and.

30:38

Twenty two caliber target

30:40

pistol. He started going to

30:42

the shooting range for price. Having

30:45

lot of people. Who were in war

30:47

two brought home nine millimeter

30:49

luger, you hear people? From that

30:52

era. Talk about right, yeah.

30:54

This kind of trophy if you could get

30:56

your hands on one. In

30:59

bring it home. Then you, you know,

31:01

you talk about Gibbs him starting

31:03

to go to the gunman. For

31:05

most people. You would think

31:08

okay?

31:09

You applied for gun permit, you've

31:11

got some guns you want to learn how to shoot.

31:13

I'm not taking much about it, no are you

31:16

know how to shoot which is one of?

31:17

Get better, get better actors, you just

31:19

want, keep your skills up.

31:21

With John List and everything that's

31:23

going on. If you're in that

31:25

family. I would you rather

31:28

take a second. The think

31:30

about? Members already thought that

31:32

he wanted them dead. Now

31:34

of sudden, he's going to the shooting range.

31:38

I'm little concern. It basically gives

31:40

what came out was that. John

31:42

blamed his family for all of his problem.

31:45

Of course is not going to be am no because

31:47

he's perfect right he's profession.

31:50

I don't know what it's like to be a perfectionist,

31:53

I think you more so than anybody

31:55

knows that I'm not. That

31:58

can see how we prefer. Action

32:00

is might have a hard time seeing

32:02

their own flaws. For admitting

32:05

to. Those for. The

32:07

be admitting parts big problem. Layer

32:10

said that he was Helen in our.

32:13

We're the ones who wanted breeze know

32:15

the wasn't him. They also fell

32:17

like his mother was bird. Despite

32:20

the fact that she had helped him out

32:22

financially quite bit over the years

32:25

both, knowingly and unknowingly

32:28

you have you know that was he had

32:30

given him money but he had also taken

32:32

quite bit without her knowledge And

32:34

in the other thing was that he really worried

32:37

that his kids were going down bad

32:39

patch. John later said

32:41

that he said on his recliner every

32:43

night print. The thinking about what

32:45

to do with his family. He didn't

32:47

finalize the decision to kill

32:49

them. The until November

32:51

ninth of nineteen seventy one. And

32:54

it was on that day.

32:55

Between eight thirty a.m. in

32:58

four p.m. The John

33:00

List killed his entire family. The

33:03

are, a, I just want to back off from and. He

33:06

is later talking about.

33:09

Sitting in the recliner, what

33:11

I'd do, things are going bad.

33:14

Obviously. The thinking

33:16

about killing his family.

33:18

You have to start the thaw it, right?

33:21

Before you can finalize it, you. That

33:23

a certain point, how does the thought

33:25

even enter your much as well known,

33:27

how do you have those type of thoughts and? How

33:30

do you plan that out in your head, you know

33:32

this is? What I need to do.

33:34

For that, this is the right

33:37

thing to do.

33:38

That's the thing that's going to solve

33:40

all my problem, it's her for everyone.

33:43

Who imagine?

33:44

Just even having the fleeting

33:47

thought of it, let alone.

33:49

Humming to the decision that it's the

33:51

best course of action. November

33:54

ninth started off as a normal

33:56

Tuesday morning, the family got off

33:58

the children, eight their breakfast. Then they went

34:00

to school. After sending the

34:02

kid's school, John lists loaded

34:04

his guns in his car. When into

34:06

the house determined to complete

34:09

his much. According to B. C.

34:11

John later said it's just

34:13

like deed. You go in. There's

34:16

no stopping after you start.

34:18

The right there, he is comparing.

34:21

The mission to kill his

34:23

entire family. Who

34:26

did it now? Scare, it's

34:28

really scary. John shot

34:30

Helen in the kitchen while she

34:32

was drinking her coffee, he then

34:34

went upstairs to find his mother. Who

34:37

was waiting in her kitchen for

34:39

her toes to come out of the toaster? You

34:41

gave her son a kiss on the T. And

34:44

she asked. About the loud

34:46

noise that she just heard. John

34:49

told her he didn't know what it was. Then

34:52

he shot his mom and the face near

34:54

her left off. And he just left

34:56

her there. Lying on her back

34:58

for knees were banned, there was blood

35:00

everywhere. The of the year. The

35:03

husband of the year. In

35:05

the span of matter of minutes.

35:08

You killed your wife of

35:10

in.

35:11

Twenty years or so, you've killed

35:14

the woman who. They've

35:16

life to you, right? Noted

35:18

on you okay maybe. she was

35:20

a little smothering i get that but

35:22

she doted on use he loved you

35:25

John and. Went back downstairs,

35:28

he dragged Helen's body into the ball.

35:30

Then any scrub the blood in the kitchen? There

35:33

was so much blood. That

35:36

he said it, too. The number

35:38

of rounds of mopping to clean

35:40

it up. John announced to

35:42

his acquaintances that he was going on a long

35:44

family trip. Because Helen's

35:47

mother in North Carolina was

35:49

very sick. This was part of his plan,

35:51

right, he's thinking ahead were plane

35:53

in and out. Though he pauses

35:56

newspaper. The mail

35:58

know delivery. It took

36:00

shower. drove into town.

36:03

Then he withdrew his mother's entire

36:06

say.

36:06

We mention as she had quite a chunk in their

36:09

get one point, two hundred thousand dollars.

36:11

The on then called Westfield High School

36:13

to tell the administration the he

36:15

was taking his children on an extended

36:17

vacation. Though we said

36:20

earlier on, gives the John list

36:23

was in told. Though it doesn't

36:25

surprise me that. Though

36:28

he thought of some of these things.

36:30

The oh, how do I get away with

36:33

what I'm going to do? Okay.

36:35

Maybe even made a checklist, I need

36:37

to make sure cancel all these things

36:41

don't want anybody coming to the

36:43

house.

36:44

I don't want anyone to realize

36:46

that something's wrong that

36:48

the kids haven't gone to school so.

36:51

The Ruse is going to be that we're

36:53

going to go visit my wife's

36:55

six months. They really

36:57

did plan all this out with great detail.

37:00

But so far he's shot his

37:02

wife and my. The in John eight

37:04

is ones. The same

37:06

table where his wife had been sitting

37:08

just a few hours before, according

37:11

to B.C. c When he was asked

37:13

how he could eat after murdering

37:15

his wife and mother, he responded. I

37:18

was hungry. That's just the way it was.

37:20

That he got he. Kind of hard to get

37:22

much colder than that, he's definitely

37:24

cold. Then. Going

37:27

to continue to be a heartless and of bitch.

37:30

Then I think that's very apt description.

37:32

Though in the afternoon he picked up,

37:34

his showed them from school. The them home.

37:38

Patricia in the head as soon as they

37:40

got inside. The man he ambushed

37:42

his sons when they ran inside.

37:45

He killed his son Friday with one

37:47

shot. There is other son, John,

37:49

fight back. The on leaders hold

37:51

a B. C. John got hurt. More

37:54

because he seem to struggle

37:56

long. I don't know whether was

37:58

only because she was so. Jerking

38:00

that wanted to make sure that he

38:02

didn't suffer or that it was

38:04

sort of a way of relieving tense.

38:07

After having completed what I sell

38:09

was my assignment for the day. My

38:12

assignment for the day. This

38:15

is a man, the void. The

38:17

most right? Then. He

38:19

said cold and I get that.

38:23

The are really emotionless.

38:26

That can like. murdering his family.

38:29

I want to task, yeah, mean, you

38:31

know the first never left in the my

38:33

mind was. I've got

38:35

to do list. Oh, my wife.

38:37

Though my mother. Kill Patricia.

38:40

Hill Friday kill jobs in

38:43

East checking them off, check

38:45

check, check in between there, it's, you know,

38:47

call the mail or stop

38:49

the mail, stop the milk deliveries,

38:51

he's just checking all of these things

38:54

off one by one called the school.

38:56

John ripped his face out of every

38:59

family photo he could find.

39:01

Because he fell. Though it would

39:03

make the police harder. For

39:06

them to get his description.

39:08

The, you know, that's some thought.

39:11

That went into that. The a lot of times

39:14

we talk about murderers, sometimes

39:16

they can be very spur

39:18

of the moment. Nothing is

39:20

spur of the moment about what

39:22

John List did: "He'd been thinking about

39:25

it, he been going back and forth

39:27

on how to solve his problems now

39:30

he's. Completed his assignment

39:33

in his words. Horrible.

39:35

Word.

39:36

In any has the thought that

39:38

okay, the police are going to come after

39:41

me.

39:41

Though I'm going to make

39:43

sure there's no photos lying

39:46

around of my states.

39:47

The and very smart guy, yeah, no, I

39:50

believe he was smart.

39:52

Being smart doesn't mean that you

39:54

always do the right, saying

39:56

that you always make good judgments, but

39:59

he wasn't too. After

40:01

all this, he spent the night at the house.

40:03

And then the next morning, he turned the heat

40:06

down to fifty degrees. You

40:08

would think maybe to preserve

40:11

his family's bodies, that wasn't the reason

40:13

that ultimately turned out. That

40:16

he did so. Just

40:18

to keep the pipes from bursting

40:20

in his home. You don't want to turn the heat

40:22

completely off because

40:24

then you could have a freeze pipe

40:26

burst. And. The

40:29

attention is drawn into the whole. The

40:31

he's really has his planned out. He's

40:34

thought this all the way through. It

40:36

was also said that he didn't want

40:38

to cause problems for the bank, of course

40:40

he's going to. The more concerned

40:42

about the bank than is.

40:44

Once worked as a surprise, right enough murdered

40:47

on yes, so he can't

40:49

pay back his mortgage. This

40:51

on the verge of foreclosure. Yeah,

40:54

he does have one paid to Burst.

40:57

In the house to get damage. The

40:59

the bank will. The out money.

41:02

That's an activity thank you

41:04

for not letting those pipes burst. We're

41:07

so glad that you what decided

41:09

to murder your family in this house. Then

41:11

played classical music

41:14

over the inner com. Than

41:16

any gun into his car and drove to the airport.

41:18

They. Say you walk past eleven murderers

41:21

in your lifetime, but have you ever thought about

41:23

what it would be like to really actually no

41:25

one, what if your high school sweetheart turned?

41:27

Out to be a cold blooded killer, what if your coworker

41:30

was killed by stalker on the first

41:32

degree podcast hosted Jack Vanoc,

41:34

Alexis Linkletter and Billy Jensen

41:36

dive into A? New true crime story every

41:39

week told from the eyes of someone who was

41:41

one degree away from murder and

41:43

who knows you may be there next guest

41:45

so listen to. The first degree, wherever

41:47

you get your podcast.

41:49

Hey, Jordan Harbinger, here of the Jordan Harbinger

41:51

Shelf, subscribe to the only show that

41:53

will show you how to apply the world's greatest ideas

41:56

from the most striking minds: "We've got spies,

41:58

psychologist and see.

42:00

athletes And authors from Coby Bryant

42:02

to Malcolm Gladwell, Tony Hawk and Howe

42:04

Mandel and the chairman of Google founders of

42:06

Linton and Instagram, Conmen National

42:08

Heroes, Smugglers, scientists and everyone

42:11

in between. Check out R starter packs with topics

42:13

like persuasion and influence disinformation

42:15

and cyber warfare negotiation in communication,

42:18

crime cults and more come join

42:20

and have a listen for yourself at Jordan. Harbinger

42:23

Dot. com Slash start or search

42:25

for the Jordan Harbinger show that's h'a

42:27

r bazan boy as and as in nancy

42:29

g r on apple podcasts spotify

42:32

or wherever you're listening now Jon

42:34

left his court airport and

42:36

got on the floor. It's assumed

42:39

Gibbs that he used a fake name. Because

42:42

there's no record. John,

42:44

list ever taking flight? Let's

42:46

face it much easier in

42:48

the Seventies. Who? The

42:51

walk on plane were given

42:53

name or Venus on my dad would

42:55

never happened today, reserves at the very

42:57

least it would be much harder to do.

43:00

Back when you set of write down your name,

43:02

pace cashiers sitting in the sea. I

43:04

mean, really, after this week's when, Bar.

43:07

No, we talked about it, the list didn't

43:09

get out all that much. Really,

43:12

no one noticed that. The

43:14

anything was wrong, the school thought

43:16

they were. The, you know, traveling.

43:19

The kids run a trip.

43:21

He actually did a pretty good job

43:23

if you think about it.

43:25

Whining everything up so that he

43:27

would take quite a while

43:29

for people to discover what he

43:31

had done. The games have really. That

43:34

amount of we time. Then I and think

43:36

that was his intention. In

43:39

December, nineteen seventy one

43:41

neighbor, Bill, comment wondered why

43:43

the lights a breeze knows we're going

43:46

out one by one. The been

43:48

weeks since he'd seen anyone entering

43:50

or leaving the home now. The

43:52

to dig hole hot about it. For

43:55

quite some time, because the lights

43:57

were on. But as soon as they started

43:59

going out. And he noticed

44:01

that no one was replacing them.

44:04

The started to wonder if people were.

44:07

The actually home. Those wife,

44:09

it also notice and unfamiliar white

44:11

car loitering outside. The

44:13

driver was man named Ed

44:16

ileana Who was Paddies

44:18

drama? He was concerned

44:20

because Patty hadn't shown up to school

44:22

and such long time. John

44:24

had called the other drama coach,

44:27

woman named Barber shared and. Then

44:29

tell her they were going on vacation.

44:32

They didn't believe. Though he went

44:34

to police. They assured him

44:36

that everything was fine. Then on December

44:38

seventh, he convinced Barbara to go

44:40

with him to house to check things

44:42

out. The an officer also spoke

44:45

to build panic on the afternoon, the seven.

44:48

No, told the officer he was worried

44:50

about the family, too. When he saw

44:52

the white core in the driveway that evening,

44:54

he went over to investigate. His

44:56

wife called the police to

44:58

officers and Barbara stood

45:01

outside the house at ten p.m. Then

45:03

it was that he. The seventh

45:05

that police officers entered the home

45:08

for the first time. Immediately

45:10

noticed soft organ music

45:12

playing over the intercom system. The

45:14

step further into the house, they found five

45:17

bucks. Almost the entire list

45:19

and. They found Hell and Patricia.

45:22

John Junior, Frederick and Alma.

45:25

They had all been shot. Though everybody

45:27

by John. Then I always think about

45:30

police officers who. Though

45:32

have to encountered these types of

45:34

scenes. Go out on probably

45:37

what they think is a very routine

45:39

call and then all of sudden

45:41

gibbs it turns into. Probably

45:44

the most disturbing call that the.

45:47

Never in would taken

45:49

their entire career. Helen, in the

45:51

children, were put in the ballroom. laid

45:54

out on bloody sleeping bags

45:56

underneath the skyline. Alma

45:58

was upstairs in her", added. apartment

46:00

stuffed into storage year. The

46:03

girls and Freddie were shot once in

46:05

the head. John Jr. had been shot

46:07

at least ten times. The and all of

46:09

the bodies had been there for almost

46:12

month. That good seen walk and no

46:14

no, not at all. Please enter

46:16

the office and they found no stayed

46:19

to the desk with instructions. Inside

46:22

filing cabinet door was Manila

46:24

folder with lead. One

46:26

was node about repaying five

46:28

hundred are low. "The others were

46:30

apologies to", John's wrote.

46:33

They also found thirty two caliber revolver.

46:36

The and nine millimeter pistol

46:38

in desk drawer.

46:39

Most disturbingly, they sound a

46:41

five page know.

46:43

From John to Reverend Eugene,

46:46

they winkle. Was the pastor

46:48

of Redeemer Lutheran Church John

46:51

wrote about the evil in this war? He

46:53

claimed to have murdered his family to

46:55

save their soul. The letter red

46:58

deer past your way when. Hi,

47:00

I'm sorry to add this additional burden to

47:02

your work. I know that would is

47:04

been done is wrong from all that I'd

47:06

been taught in that any reasons

47:08

that my gear will not make it right.

47:11

You're the one person that know

47:13

that while not condoning this

47:16

would least possibly understand

47:18

why felt that had to do. Knowing

47:21

the type of location that one would have to

47:23

live in plus the environment

47:25

for the children. The effect

47:27

on them knowing they were on welfare.

47:30

We just more than thought they could

47:32

and should and door. The pad being

47:35

so determined to get into acting.

47:37

was also fear for as to what does my

47:39

do to her continuing to be

47:41

a Christian. I'm sure it wouldn't

47:43

have helped. Last time, sir.

47:46

That all have gone to heaven now.

47:49

If things had gone on, who knows

47:51

if that would be the case? He

47:53

ass mother is in the hallway

47:55

in the attic third floor. She

47:58

was too heavy to move. Okay. Then.

48:00

Wow, yeah. Then I'm struggling

48:02

for words, Stephen, break this thing

48:05

down. Then are doing the first

48:07

thing that. jumped out of me,

48:09

was him thinking?

48:12

That. This past year would be.

48:15

The in any way. The able

48:17

to understand. What

48:20

he did, he says, "You will, I know you want to donuts,

48:23

but you'll understand your

48:25

give me, you know why, right?

48:27

No, I'm not going to know why John nobody's

48:29

gonna know. Nobody's going to

48:31

understand. The man you know him?

48:34

Talking about that his

48:36

family shouldn't have to endure.

48:40

Being poor. He'd rather

48:42

have his family debt. Then.

48:45

The have to have them go through being

48:47

poor and on welfare. The

48:49

part about his daughter, actor. Those

48:52

she would no longer be able to be a Christian.

48:55

Me either use. What is going

48:57

on in this guy's head?

48:59

He was really worked extremely,

49:01

we're pissed.

49:02

I want to zero when on the welfare

49:05

not wanting his family to have to endure

49:07

being poor to me gives

49:10

that's him. Not being able

49:12

to live with the fact that. These

49:15

are unable to provide for his family

49:17

the way that he believes he should.

49:19

Then think he's trying to justify

49:22

it by saying it that way, yeah, that's

49:24

what got from, yeah, agree with you. Dawn

49:27

also wrote that he prayed for his victims

49:29

after the murders because it

49:32

was the least could do. The

49:34

very least that you could do.

49:37

You could not murdered them. He went

49:39

on to say that Helen in the children

49:41

all agreed they wanted to be cremated.

49:44

Then and that he wanted his books to be

49:46

donate. That's important in

49:48

a situation like this, yeah, think so. What's

49:51

gonna happen to his books that

49:54

have good home for my books? According

49:56

to N.J. Dot. com, John

49:58

also wrote that he. Then and he kills

50:00

family on November first.

50:03

All Saints Day, but. Travel

50:06

arrangements were delay. Though he

50:08

wasn't able to carry out

50:10

the family annihilation when he wanted.

50:13

The things just didn't work out. Detectives

50:16

sound John's car park dad JFK

50:18

International Airports on December

50:21

not. The parking voucher

50:23

dated November ten They

50:25

found the john and locked his keys inside

50:27

the car. Though they knew

50:30

that he had taken flight. Though the

50:32

F.B.I b i launched a nationwide

50:34

and international surge. They had

50:36

dozens of agents working the case,

50:38

but. They couldn't find. The

50:40

any signs of is located. In

50:42

the community was that us to? Westfield

50:45

hadn't had murder case and eight years.

50:48

The you give children

50:50

were scared. They were asking

50:52

their that. If they were going

50:54

to come home one day and kill them

50:57

to. That said it is sad.

50:59

This whole thing is really sad, am

51:02

sure that me was devastated. I mean,

51:04

if they haven't had a murder case and eight years now

51:06

you have.

51:07

The entire family murdered wiped out

51:09

in one fell swoop. People

51:11

who knew John Less were worried that

51:13

he would sneak into their house and kill

51:15

them to. Why wouldn't they be?

51:18

This guy was capable of doing what

51:20

he did. He's capable

51:22

of anything sure there so. Maybe

51:25

he's got some vendettas, maybe

51:27

there are some people that he knew they didn't like.

51:30

They get you a little worried too.

51:33

The year after the murders breeze know

51:35

burned down in an arse. The

51:37

case was never saw, but the police suspected

51:40

team vandals. Many people

51:42

in the community were glad. The see

51:44

you're basically this symbol. Where

51:47

are these heinous murders occurred,

51:49

gone? Having a be in that camp to

51:52

the something like dad had happened. The

51:54

in my neighborhood. Seeing

51:57

it every day driving by it every

51:59

day. Kind of read living

52:01

in your head, what had happened,

52:03

he can I just pray that it would be leveled,

52:06

it's a big.

52:08

They get if energy on the whole

52:10

community, sir.

52:11

Now, for a while, people suspected

52:14

the John Lewis was the infamous D.B.

52:16

Cooper. Covered Cooper in an

52:18

episode of unsolved we did.

52:21

Cooper, hijack the plane in November,

52:23

nineteen, seventy one around the time

52:25

there's John was on the roof. Then

52:28

John dismiss that theory later

52:30

on. After he was captured.

52:33

John was manage to murder his family.

52:35

The game and build a new life

52:38

for himself. It took eighteen years,

52:40

but it was true crime TV show. That

52:43

led to his capture. Nineteen

52:45

eighty nine Union County prosecutor's

52:48

ask the producers of America's most

52:50

wanted. The do an episode on

52:52

the John was case. It also

52:54

asked unsolved mystery.

52:56

They rejected the case because

52:58

he said it was too old. And

53:00

there were no Lee. This is

53:02

a very.

53:04

Well known America's most wanted

53:06

episode: "A lot of people were probably

53:08

remember it's they worked

53:10

with a guy named for vendor. The

53:13

was forensic sculptor. Vendor

53:15

analyze photos to predict

53:18

how John List may look

53:20

eighteen years later. forensic

53:22

psychologist Richard Walter predicted

53:24

the John would continue wearing his

53:27

horn rimmed glasses. Who

53:29

appear intelligent? Then I can

53:31

see how he would come up with that. Good,

53:33

go back to everything we said about

53:36

John with. He was intelligent.

53:39

It wouldn't surprise you. Is

53:42

giving off the? There

53:44

of intelligence was extremely

53:46

important. Then it wouldn't surprise

53:48

me at all, man. That we wanted

53:51

to be yes. And that's

53:53

who he wanted people. The

53:55

see, yeah, he wanted portray

53:57

that one of them to believe it's just like. Wanted

54:00

to kind of prefer a this

54:02

very well see affluent

54:05

lifestyle south, ultimately

54:07

he couldn't live up to know. They

54:09

didn't stop him from trying

54:11

and really wanting it to

54:13

be that way tried arm you'd rather

54:15

Kutner grass center and I assume you

54:17

know. That's some effort you fancy. These

54:20

progression photos were pretty new technology.

54:23

The time. The F. B. had

54:25

created photos of John using

54:28

some new software. And America's

54:30

most wanted use the photos

54:32

to help make the bus. Fox

54:35

hear the show on May twenty first and nineteen

54:37

eighty nine. And they displayed the boss

54:40

Dobbin aged Jong list,

54:42

this is what. The will probably

54:44

remember the most can still

54:46

see and a my head. Gibbs, about twenty

54:49

two million people, saw the opposite.

54:51

The Westfield Police Department received

54:53

three hundred calls after the episode

54:56

premier. The woman in New Orleans

54:58

even turned in her own husband thinking,

55:01

that he was jong woo right yeah She

55:03

was so convinced.

55:05

That he was John lists that she

55:07

got the F. B. I. to slow down

55:09

to interview.

55:11

He did have the same biographical details

55:14

as John, but his fingerprints

55:16

didn't match. How does the marriage

55:19

progress from that point?

55:20

Yeah, really don't know at that point because you know

55:22

it's all about, sir.

55:24

Cry for a first honey

55:26

I told you wasn't John Worse Road,

55:28

he still called the police on me and

55:31

he called me some really bad names and to

55:33

run out of the was my him. They

55:35

they call that. Irreconcilable

55:37

differences, yeah. The woman

55:39

from Denver, Colorado, thought

55:42

the boss was like her former neighbor.

55:44

Robert P. Car. Robber went

55:46

to church, he worked as an account,

55:49

and he also more horn rimmed

55:51

glasses. The Clark said recently

55:53

moved to Virginia. Then the F.

55:56

B. I took this one seriously as well. They

55:58

went to court house and. Confronted

56:00

his shocked one. The explain

56:02

that she met her husband at a church

56:05

social, they lived in Denver

56:07

until just few years before

56:09

that. He was willing to cooperate

56:11

and gave over information and photographs.

56:14

In the man in her wedding picture

56:16

looked exactly like the bus. On

56:19

June first, nineteen eighty nine. The

56:21

F. B. I. agents arrested John List

56:23

as his accounting office. The New

56:25

York Times said that John was

56:28

quote "very calm and self contained"

56:31

During the arrest. He denied

56:33

his true identity. The fingerprints

56:35

confirmed he was John Lives. Again,

56:39

none of that surprises. This

56:41

is man who. I'm assuming

56:43

saw it he was better than everyone

56:46

else. The with that comes

56:48

what the herbs. Okay. I'll

56:51

stay calm, right? I'm going

56:53

to deny Deny Deny.

56:56

Some how I'm going to war

56:58

my way out.

56:59

That obviously. with fingerprints

57:02

that's pretty hard to do When I thought was

57:04

extremely interesting is that

57:07

Robert P. Clark. Lived

57:09

basically the exact same life

57:11

is John was. The worked as an

57:13

account. What he had trouble

57:16

keeping a job. The worried about

57:18

money he went to church,

57:20

he continued to wear the same horn rimmed

57:22

glasses, it was like he didn't

57:24

change anything. I

57:27

remember he thinks he's the smartest person in the room.

57:29

Though don't need to change anything

57:31

because I'm so smart, they'll never

57:33

be able to catch. Right? The

57:36

actually? They know who he is now,

57:38

they have his fingerprints and so

57:40

John finally agreed to tell the truth.

57:42

He said that after killing his family.

57:45

The went to the Social Security Office

57:47

in New Jersey, he told the clerk

57:50

he lost his car. And he needed

57:52

are replaced. This was back

57:54

before.

57:55

They require proof of identity

57:57

to get a replacement car. There.

58:00

John got brand new card with fake

58:02

name on it, Robert P. Clark.

58:04

That he then went home and burned his

58:06

passport and pictures on the grill. Then

58:09

he took a flight. The road, trains

58:12

and buses. And really kind

58:14

of took non direct route

58:16

to Denver. The arrived there

58:18

on November twenty. When

58:20

he first got to Denver, he worked as hotel

58:23

fry cook. The any purchase

58:25

the trailer with Alma Mater? The

58:27

grew out his moustache and he got

58:29

new wardrobe, any said that

58:31

he really didn't ever see all that

58:34

much news coverage on the case. You

58:36

can only recall seeing one newspaper

58:38

article with his phone. But

58:40

even so, he stop going to church, she made

58:43

sure to avoid even getting

58:45

a.

58:45

Parking ticket and really good,

58:47

you have to say his plan where. He

58:50

built a completely new one.

58:52

The problem was he couldn't resist

58:55

going back to what he knew.

58:57

What was familiar town?

59:00

Though in nineteen seventy five,

59:02

John. The joined to church

59:05

any got a job as an account. John

59:07

mad the lawyers Miller, his future

59:10

wife and nineteen, seventy seven at

59:12

church social. And

59:14

he said Demaurice was exactly what

59:16

he wanted in while, she was reserved

59:19

quiet. And devoted

59:22

to the church. Reserved

59:24

and quiet. Obedient

59:26

is. Maybe another where he wanted

59:28

to use. Then I think you're absolutely

59:31

one hundred percent correct. believe

59:34

that John lists wanted

59:36

everyone in his life too.

59:39

They and law. In that included

59:41

his wife and Nina, we talked about. He

59:44

was in exactly. Doing

59:47

everything that he wanted her to do. You

59:50

drank a with. She spoke her mind.

59:53

You probably got on him when things upset

59:55

her. This is years we're.

59:58

For for. Doesn't

1:00:00

that kind of just happen naturally?

1:00:03

In a marriage. When you first

1:00:06

meet someone when you're dating. Then

1:00:08

you really let it all kind of.

1:00:10

Come out, know nobody does.

1:00:14

Five. You know, ten fifteen

1:00:16

twenty years into the marriage, okay,

1:00:19

stop posting the door when you go to the bathroom.

1:00:22

bodily functions in front of each other

1:00:24

and all that important as they were before

1:00:26

he did it on day five, I do that

1:00:28

to you. know when it off, without

1:00:31

a care in the world. It's

1:00:33

just kind of natural progression.

1:00:36

As people. The'a more and

1:00:39

more familiar with each other John

1:00:41

told the moors his first wife died

1:00:43

of lung cancer. In that.

1:00:46

He had no children. The into law is got

1:00:48

married in nineteen eighty five. Then

1:00:50

moved into condo that

1:00:53

she purchase. Not surprisingly,

1:00:56

John lost his job and nights and eighty six.

1:00:59

And he pretty much burn through

1:01:01

Dolore's his savings. She told

1:01:03

friend that. John was

1:01:05

constantly buying so. That.

1:01:08

They just couldn't afford.

1:01:10

Than that if he didn't get a job,

1:01:12

she was going to leave. Okay.

1:01:15

The get in.

1:01:16

The real John list

1:01:18

can't be contained. This

1:01:21

is the guy who wants to project.

1:01:24

The certain image.

1:01:25

Though he needs to buy certain

1:01:27

things to bird, just that image.

1:01:30

Whether he has a job right, whether

1:01:32

he has the money for it or not

1:01:34

it. Or? Whether he

1:01:36

has to deplete his new will face

1:01:39

entire savings account he's

1:01:41

going to do. And he did it. They

1:01:43

do. The course neighbor wander

1:01:45

flynn. Picked up copy

1:01:48

of the weekly World News. They

1:01:50

did story about the murders on the

1:01:52

fifteenth anniversary. You

1:01:54

ran two doors his house and told

1:01:57

her that the man in the story

1:01:59

looked just like. Rob. And

1:02:01

the Morris reportedly told her, "Well, it

1:02:03

does look like Bob, but it's not him" And

1:02:07

she never even mentioned the story, too.

1:02:09

The house. She doesn't believe it could have

1:02:11

been him now. In one person

1:02:14

would want to believe that.

1:02:16

Definitely kind of a tough ask it

1:02:18

is what's it going to say about you? That

1:02:20

your picker was off, yeah. For

1:02:23

one day.

1:02:24

In nineteen eighty eight, the Clark's move

1:02:26

to Midlothian, Virginia, a

1:02:28

suburb of Richmond. They're

1:02:30

John Gotti, new accounting joe. Things

1:02:33

were pretty normal gives until the.

1:02:36

Episode of America's Most Wanted

1:02:38

Premier. John later admitted

1:02:41

that he actually watched. The

1:02:43

end of America's most wanted when

1:02:45

they presented the box.

1:02:47

He told a B. C. I was

1:02:49

perspiring like anything.

1:02:51

Why don't more is didn't notice

1:02:53

the similarity. I'm gonna be

1:02:56

like said. The your new wife.

1:02:58

As. They tell. Your

1:03:01

story. The how terrible

1:03:03

person you are. And you're probably just

1:03:05

hoping hoping. The

1:03:08

she doesn't cool and. Why?

1:03:10

Imagine it would be very nerve wracking.

1:03:13

You're thinking. The any

1:03:15

men? He's going to examine

1:03:18

this busted they're showing and.

1:03:20

she's going to turn to me and say That

1:03:23

looks some lot like you. The

1:03:25

side, how happy are you? Then.

1:03:28

Then you let her watch that show not enter

1:03:30

the show. The thing.

1:03:32

Then your feel like you're out of the would

1:03:34

get right at that point.

1:03:36

Wanda Flannery, her daughter Eva

1:03:39

and her son in law, Randy Mitch. Watch

1:03:42

the up so together. She noticed

1:03:44

the John list looked just like

1:03:46

or old neighbor. Randy also

1:03:49

recognized him and it was rant.

1:03:51

Who made the call that changed everything?

1:03:54

The think about it is. America's

1:03:57

most wanted. Never did that case.

1:04:00

Could still be certain in his. There.

1:04:02

The living room. Russian TV

1:04:04

right now. It's very possible

1:04:07

you go back to the fact that unsolved

1:04:09

mysteries turned it down. It

1:04:11

didn't think there was enough there. Who

1:04:14

present? That's kind of

1:04:16

you know producers and everybody

1:04:18

involved they, have to make that decision

1:04:21

sir you and I make that decision

1:04:23

on a weekly basis as we're reviewing

1:04:25

cases researching. is

1:04:28

there enough here for an entire

1:04:30

episode The unsolved mysteries

1:04:32

obviously thought there was, and there's no

1:04:34

new leads, what are we even gonna talk

1:04:36

about? It's very possible

1:04:38

that America's most wanted could have made

1:04:41

the same decision. In

1:04:43

the outcome would have been very different.

1:04:45

Probably. That I can't help. The

1:04:48

think about how he was able to. The

1:04:50

out there for eighteen years. The

1:04:53

undetected.

1:04:54

Will go back to the fact that

1:04:56

it was as easy.

1:04:58

There's to just walk into the Social

1:05:00

Security Administration. In

1:05:03

say. I need a new card

1:05:05

or. In my name is Richard T. Car,

1:05:07

and in this is

1:05:10

my social security number. Okay,

1:05:12

work the little bit easier to.

1:05:15

Get away with things if there are

1:05:17

no controls. The employees

1:05:19

at the time. The lore is visited

1:05:21

John in jail on June third. And

1:05:24

he explained to her. Why he killed

1:05:26

his family? According to N. J.

1:05:28

Dot. com. With tears in his

1:05:30

eyes, he told her. I was always

1:05:33

such a kind, gentle man. Except

1:05:35

for that one or. The

1:05:38

encourage Dolores to sell her story

1:05:40

to the tabloids to make money. Then

1:05:42

she refused. And. She

1:05:45

has never gibbs. Made

1:05:47

public comment about the case.

1:05:50

What about her character it does because

1:05:52

this was a huge deal? Then

1:05:55

she could have. Made ton

1:05:57

of money. Right by selling her store.

1:06:00

Then. No doubt about

1:06:02

that. The let's go back. Ooh,

1:06:04

that one. com. I was

1:06:06

such a kind, gentle man.

1:06:09

Except for that one out. That

1:06:11

one act being.

1:06:13

Pretty much the worst possible thing you could have possibly

1:06:15

done, yeah, Forest. What's that guy

1:06:18

in the? I'm a get in.

1:06:20

The around the big table they're talking about

1:06:22

how this is gonna be the. Sources and

1:06:24

ever.

1:06:26

Then. Guy, the phone will say the cricket, he

1:06:28

says, "Pretty much the worst possible

1:06:30

thing imaginable, yeah, you could resist", said that

1:06:32

exact pretty much the worst possible thing

1:06:34

I'm. As will some along as one race riots,

1:06:37

that's a good reference, I actually got that one. John

1:06:40

went to trial on April second ninety

1:06:42

nine. The prosecution

1:06:44

side had a truce testified that John

1:06:47

had been suffering from midlife crisis.

1:06:50

It gets little more than midlife crisis, yeah, I

1:06:52

found that comment to be a little underwhelming.

1:06:56

A lot of the suffer from mid

1:06:58

life crisis is. You know?

1:07:01

The ground by a horribly. Buy

1:07:03

sports car in our forties or fifties

1:07:05

or whatever it is, what

1:07:07

we don't do is murder

1:07:09

our entire family that's not midlife

1:07:12

crisis, no that's different type of crisis.

1:07:15

The psychiatrists went on to say that

1:07:17

John enjoyed the new life he created

1:07:20

after murdering his family. Dr.

1:07:23

Stephen Zimmer. Forensic psychiatry

1:07:26

was told B. C. that he believed

1:07:28

John's neatness was the result

1:07:31

of compulsive personality. He

1:07:33

said he showed no evidence

1:07:35

of anything that approached genuine

1:07:37

remorse. He's cold

1:07:40

me. Now that I understand did,

1:07:42

too.

1:07:43

I did you even alluded to that fact

1:07:45

of just how or. This

1:07:47

guy once. The mean you

1:07:49

think about? Wow, he'so so she

1:07:51

did. murdering his. Family.

1:07:54

That they were to do list.

1:07:56

You that check list, check check. Then.

1:08:00

It is called and, and I think, the lack

1:08:02

of any type of genuine

1:08:04

remorse that really says

1:08:06

a lot. About some? Simmering

1:08:09

diagnose John with obsessive compulsive

1:08:12

personality disorder. characterized

1:08:15

by strong need for order and

1:08:17

strict adherence to how things

1:08:19

should be. That makes one sense

1:08:22

based on everything that we talked about,

1:08:24

it really does. simmering said

1:08:26

he is so focused on little details

1:08:29

that he misses the large picks.

1:08:32

He's not good at picking up emotions

1:08:34

and other people. You're not empathetic.

1:08:37

Not it is cruel, but he lacks

1:08:39

simple. Doesn't really get

1:08:41

what other people or about doesn't

1:08:44

really read other people, which

1:08:46

I think continually got him and

1:08:48

trial. If you lack empathy, it's

1:08:50

a problem it is. I mean,

1:08:52

it's. Something that is.

1:08:55

"Quite often said about serial killers

1:08:57

and we've talked about it for many, many years"

1:09:00

Then think there are a lot of people. That

1:09:02

share the same trades.

1:09:05

The never heard any. They just had no

1:09:07

empathy towards people. They don't

1:09:10

hear what other people are going

1:09:12

through. I actually

1:09:14

know of a couple of people. That

1:09:16

are like that, yeah. I don't see them

1:09:18

is ever going on a serial

1:09:20

killing spree. They just

1:09:22

don't. Hiccup on. The

1:09:25

emotions that others are experiencing.

1:09:28

The indoor, they just don't hear, he

1:09:31

is know about them.

1:09:32

Then there's a lot of that gone on, yeah, I

1:09:35

really think there is.

1:09:37

John, the fans tried to prove

1:09:39

diminish mental capacity. That

1:09:41

all of their evidence was refuted

1:09:43

by John's extensive planning

1:09:45

and preparation, as well as

1:09:47

his actions after the murder. That

1:09:50

makes sense right gives we talked about.

1:09:53

You know, all of the things

1:09:55

that he laid out. The

1:09:58

thing that he did to kind of. Cover

1:10:00

his tracks are at the very least.

1:10:03

Give him this kind of big lead time.

1:10:06

The get away before any

1:10:08

one would know what have. Then.

1:10:10

Kind of hard to argue.

1:10:12

The minish mental capacity when.

1:10:15

the prosecution is just gonna throw back

1:10:18

in the defenses face Well.

1:10:20

Did he have a diminished mental capacity

1:10:23

when he called the school right?

1:10:25

When he thought of this elaborate plan

1:10:27

when he cancelled the mail and in

1:10:30

the mill gun and all of that.

1:10:33

When he lowered the. The

1:10:35

temperature.

1:10:36

Down to fifty degrees just

1:10:38

so that the pipes wouldn't burst in the house

1:10:41

of like he knew what he was doing, set sounds like

1:10:43

he had. The mental

1:10:45

capacity to pull that off.

1:10:47

On April thirteenth, ninety nine

1:10:50

John Lewis was found guilty of five

1:10:52

counts of first degree murder, he

1:10:54

received five licenses

1:10:56

on May first ninety nine.

1:10:58

Oh, my God gibbs, that the defense team

1:11:00

went into that one thinking move without

1:11:02

a rule uphill battle.

1:11:06

My assumption is John had to think that to

1:11:08

he. got away with his for eighteen years The

1:11:11

had to have no. That

1:11:13

if he was ever cause. He

1:11:16

was going away. He was kind

1:11:18

of Beacon the. The never get out again.

1:11:21

John sat down with Connie chung from

1:11:23

a B. C. and two thousand and two. That

1:11:25

time he was seventy six years old. This

1:11:28

was the first time that he ever

1:11:30

spoke out publicly about the case.

1:11:33

He said that he worried that financial

1:11:35

hardships would split his family up

1:11:38

and turn them away from Got.

1:11:40

They felt like a failure because he

1:11:42

couldn't provide for his them. That

1:11:44

I grew up with the idea that you should provide

1:11:47

for your family.

1:11:48

And to do that, you had to be

1:11:50

a success in the job that you had.

1:11:53

More, you're failing. And that was not

1:11:55

good thing to be. Are we know he was

1:11:57

obsessed about? Looking successful.

1:12:00

They are, I think he was. And

1:12:02

then he talked about.

1:12:04

How with the foreclosure

1:12:06

and looming, he had to make a decision? That

1:12:09

I finally decided the only way to

1:12:11

save them from that was to

1:12:13

kill the. The can have pretty

1:12:15

much what he put in the note to the pastor.

1:12:18

Iran said: "I didn't really think would

1:12:20

get away with it for more than a week

1:12:22

or two. I decided to stay

1:12:24

free as long as could, might

1:12:27

have had it in my mind to turn myself

1:12:29

in. What never gave it a

1:12:31

serious consideration. I

1:12:33

was afraid of the consequences,

1:12:36

was afraid would go to jail for a long

1:12:38

time.

1:12:39

And then Connie chung asked a question

1:12:41

that many people had ass over the years.

1:12:43

Then it was that if John

1:12:46

heated his life so much. Why

1:12:48

did he take his own like, yeah? I

1:12:50

take everybody else's. The told her

1:12:53

that. The didn't take his own life

1:12:55

because he wanted to get into have. The

1:12:57

any hope to be reunited with his

1:12:59

family? One day. Okay,

1:13:02

how is that reunion gonna go? I

1:13:04

can't imagine that it's going to go well.

1:13:07

He said it was my belief that if

1:13:09

you kill yourself. You

1:13:11

won't go to have. Then eventually I

1:13:13

got to the point where felt that could

1:13:15

kill them.

1:13:16

"Hopefully they will go to heaven

1:13:19

and then maybe I will have a chance to

1:13:21

later confess my since the God

1:13:24

and get forgive, so that

1:13:26

was his rationale"

1:13:27

He said: "I feel like when we get the heaven,

1:13:30

we will worry about these earth,

1:13:32

Lisa. Though either have

1:13:34

forgiven me. There won't realize

1:13:37

you know what have.

1:13:38

I'm sure that if we recognize each

1:13:40

other that will like each other's

1:13:42

company just as we did hear

1:13:45

when times were bad.

1:13:47

That is the most backwards thinking

1:13:49

I've ever heard.

1:13:51

Well, that's what he wants to believe right

1:13:53

he's trying to. The justify

1:13:55

what he did.

1:13:56

So he keeps telling himself that

1:13:58

I guess to. Help justify

1:14:01

it, yeah, you're probably right. The on

1:14:03

a meal list died on March twenty first

1:14:06

two thousand, they at the age of eighty

1:14:08

two. He died of pneumonia related

1:14:10

complications at St. Francis Medical

1:14:13

Center for days after he

1:14:15

was admit. Though. Him

1:14:17

soon as we wrap up this case. No

1:14:19

doubt it was, is it was shocking

1:14:21

case is still lives, I mean, it's still sox

1:14:24

people to this day. The family violence.

1:14:27

know it haunts Westfield

1:14:29

Thursday. There is he gets.

1:14:32

You have left people wondering

1:14:34

for many, many years.

1:14:36

How John List could murder

1:14:38

his mother, his wife and his three

1:14:41

innocent children. How could

1:14:43

a man he'd his family so much?

1:14:45

The he felt like killing them was

1:14:48

the only way out. No,

1:14:50

he was so cold and calculated.

1:14:52

He was that, but

1:14:54

to me on top of it. The

1:14:56

his view of things. Was

1:14:58

so skewed. That.

1:15:01

His way of thinking. The

1:15:03

to me just doesn't make any sense.

1:15:06

At all.

1:15:07

The news, very selfish day was a very

1:15:09

selfish person, he was vein,

1:15:12

you know, he was all of those things. The

1:15:15

right thing he said, some of this himself

1:15:17

when it was, is basically lie. It.

1:15:20

If I can have the lies,

1:15:22

that. want.

1:15:24

That I believe should have

1:15:26

and can give my wife

1:15:28

and children the lies that.

1:15:31

think they should have. They

1:15:33

are better off dead. In

1:15:36

that is so bizarre.

1:15:38

How someone could build that up

1:15:40

in their mind and

1:15:43

actually believe it's true. The

1:15:45

most people. It's nonsensical,

1:15:48

it just doesn't make any sense. Then

1:15:50

he had whole thing where he. His

1:15:52

other life for eighteen years. How

1:15:55

do you go on for eighteen years? Knowing

1:15:57

what you did, yeah. I think you.

1:16:00

Do it because. You

1:16:02

know?

1:16:03

They didn't feel bad about what you did use,

1:16:06

you didn't have any remorse, you really

1:16:08

saw it.

1:16:09

I know this is gonna come out sounding

1:16:11

bad, but it's almost as if he saw

1:16:14

it, he does his family a favor

1:16:16

if I do the right, but he thought he did the right

1:16:18

there. Or at least that's what he

1:16:21

is said. In my way of

1:16:23

thinking. kind of lean

1:16:25

towards maybe he saw it. just

1:16:27

wanna start in his life. I'm messing

1:16:30

this one up on jacking this one up

1:16:32

so. The easiest way for

1:16:34

me to start a new life. This

1:16:36

to rid myself of this. The

1:16:38

current weiner. Assume new

1:16:40

identity and try to sort

1:16:42

of.

1:16:43

Now whether that's true or not, I

1:16:46

don't know, but. That seems

1:16:48

much more believable to me,

1:16:50

sir.

1:16:51

Then a person thinking that their family

1:16:53

is better off dead than having

1:16:56

to go on welfare or struggling through

1:16:58

some hard financial times think

1:17:00

if is family had a. They in this.

1:17:03

They would have. There's something different. Yeah,

1:17:05

they would have chosen like. Then

1:17:08

maybe. A struggle

1:17:10

through some. The hard financial

1:17:13

times, maybe it would have been breeds,

1:17:15

are you know? Then he didn't get

1:17:17

on that choice he chose for

1:17:20

them. In my way of thinking,

1:17:22

based on what was best for him. Then

1:17:25

he is always spawn it as though

1:17:27

this was what was best for them. I

1:17:30

don't believe it. think he did

1:17:32

what he thought was best for her feel for

1:17:34

her. But that's it for our episode

1:17:37

on John List, we got some voicemails,

1:17:39

gibs you on check those out those.

1:17:41

Martin Derby is this person

1:17:44

hobby as calling from San

1:17:46

Diego and I'm sorry I am laughing,

1:17:48

thought our because I'm listening Sir

1:17:51

Edwin aim as low as

1:17:53

been amos and effective", he says,

1:17:55

started talking about the rabbit and I'm

1:17:57

sorry lost it all as you go.

1:18:00

Our country all day at work started,

1:18:03

digging for mad and am now as

1:18:05

that episode so anyway. i

1:18:08

keep listening to everything the one

1:18:10

and guess is that you guys crack

1:18:13

me up every day love it you do much

1:18:15

do you go something in fact

1:18:17

Her felon genuinely made

1:18:19

me laugh because, you know, that was real,

1:18:21

she was laughing so hard she

1:18:23

has, she struggled to get it back

1:18:26

to where she could finish the "The Voice", non

1:18:28

it really like me have been there before. We'd

1:18:30

laugh so hard that we've had to take a break.

1:18:33

You've had change your pants I've had to change my pants

1:18:36

before thanks for pointing that out.

1:18:38

He dies a I am from Chicago,

1:18:41

Illinois, and started listening

1:18:43

to your pathos and about a your.

1:18:45

The way thirty four.

1:18:49

am i racist And

1:18:53

I'd switch, it up, from

1:18:55

nine, and oh

1:18:58

can you and as, the city the

1:19:00

very first such as you started

1:19:02

and as nice as the same sex

1:19:04

partners on I am enjoying it on think

1:19:07

you guys for everything you're, doing i'm thousand long

1:19:11

running of our about or even when

1:19:13

i'm by myself on sex daily basis

1:19:16

so he brown time second half

1:19:19

Great painter.

1:19:21

So adding the phone when in and out a little bit

1:19:23

their butts, I got what she was that. Right,

1:19:25

so think most people know.

1:19:28

You did the very first up, so did, and

1:19:30

then did the second one by myself,

1:19:32

and knew right away. That it just

1:19:35

wasn't the same, it wasn't going to

1:19:37

work. So we made

1:19:39

the decision that we would do them all

1:19:41

pray together from there on out and

1:19:44

I'm glad we did it it's very hard.

1:19:47

The do an episode by yourself

1:19:49

and have no one to bounce off

1:19:51

Harvard's, there's no back and

1:19:53

forth it's really tough, know all the talking

1:19:55

do, I'm glad at least you're there too. You

1:19:58

know as a sounding board. I

1:20:00

know you need a sounding board do. That's

1:20:03

why work exactly.

1:20:04

Hogan. Now overflowed

1:20:07

I love, the podcast, never

1:20:10

listened to a bar darcy or and so have

1:20:12

actually heard about your guys have not been

1:20:14

was at work I sixty.

1:20:16

Hours a week so give me give me

1:20:18

through the week, but I was just was

1:20:21

amazed was ever a couple times

1:20:23

and your episodes about women

1:20:26

marrying convicted felons and make. Him

1:20:28

for decisions that's not necessarily,

1:20:31

true, unfortunately

1:20:33

I'm convicted felon been when I was eighteen

1:20:35

years old now I'm thirty two now the

1:20:37

on paper I'm still a convicted. felon

1:20:39

and I've made mistakes in my life,

1:20:42

but those mistakes that may be the man

1:20:44

that I am today and on paper

1:20:46

people my look and say oh, he's a convicted. felon

1:20:48

but they don't know me as the person

1:20:50

that I am like I've got a wonderful girlfriend,

1:20:53

never been in trouble again her life, she accepts

1:20:55

my past because that's not. Who I am

1:20:57

anymore just? while the other

1:21:00

arm enjoy your said and love podcasts

1:21:03

know he does to do and you don't want

1:21:05

to do and you guys do great work so stay

1:21:07

safe and be drawn sciences

1:21:10

The gives I get exactly what he sang

1:21:12

when would say to that is, think

1:21:14

when you and talk about it.

1:21:16

We're talking about women who fall

1:21:19

in love with some of the the, really. The

1:21:21

time killers, yeah, who are never

1:21:23

getting out of prison our favour

1:21:26

and they killed multiple people

1:21:29

here, and so I do think there's

1:21:31

a difference there of big time I

1:21:33

don't think we're ever talking about a woman

1:21:35

who. The sides to date

1:21:37

convicted felon for whatever

1:21:40

they were convicted Syria of a.

1:21:42

oh i'm always talking about If

1:21:45

the woman that wants to marry Richard Ramirez,

1:21:48

yeah. Okay. Why do you want

1:21:50

to do that knowing what he did to

1:21:52

so many women or, you

1:21:54

know, whoever it is Ted Bundy or from?

1:21:57

That I get what he said, yeah, they do this.

1:22:00

And. Yeah, sixty hours a week minutes, lot that,

1:22:02

if such as thank you very much, we had

1:22:04

some mailbag gives Julie Maple

1:22:06

sin and of butter, Kate and

1:22:09

some harley Chips. And she

1:22:11

listens with her sister, Terry Barbato

1:22:13

and her mom, laurie muslims who

1:22:16

has birthday and said: "We're happy birthday

1:22:18

mom, the up happy birthday mom, laurie

1:22:21

love you all. Thank you very much,

1:22:23

so Gibbs, that's it for another episode

1:22:25

of true crime all the times of for my

1:22:28

and gave me. They say and keep

1:22:30

your own time taking. He,

1:22:32

he.