0:00

A word of warning. This podcast explores

0:02

graphic and disturbing stories and

0:04

includes some strong language. It therefore

0:07

may not be suitable for our young listeners

0:10

or other folks who may find it disturbing.

0:12

Hello and welcome to True Crime Daily The

0:14

podcast covering high profile and under

0:16

the radar cases from across the every

0:19

week. I'm your host, Anna Garcia. In

0:21

our cases this week, a pretty woman

0:23

with an innocent looking face on Tinder turns

0:25

a date into a near deadly

0:28

bondage situation. Police say the

0:30

woman lured an unsuspecting man

0:32

over to her apartment for consensual

0:34

sex. But according to police, she

0:36

bound the man, cut him with a knife, and then she

0:38

held him hostage. When

0:40

she fell asleep, the man managed to escape.

0:43

he ran out naked and bleeding

0:46

and his alleged attacker woke

0:48

up and then chased him and found him

0:50

in the parking lot and that is where the date ended.

0:53

and the police stepped in. But

0:55

first, a nurse in the

0:57

neonatal unit of a hospital is accused

1:00

of intentionally killing seven

1:02

babies and attempting to kill another ten

1:04

babies. Police say that she injected

1:06

healthy babies with air bubbles

1:09

or over dosed them with insulin to

1:11

kill them. Her murder trial

1:13

has just begun, and prosecutors say

1:16

that she is the most prolific serial

1:18

killer of babies they have ever

1:20

seen. We are recording this on Thursday,

1:22

October thirteenth of twenty twenty

1:24

two. Our guest today's Dr. Kim Davies,

1:27

A dean of the Pamplin College

1:29

of Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences

1:31

at Augusta University, doctor Davies

1:34

specializes in criminology, and

1:36

she recently published a book

1:38

called, and this is brilliant, the

1:40

murder book, understanding homicide

1:43

today. Welcome doctor Davies. You

1:45

are I mean, the book my gosh,

1:47

you are perfect for us today. How are you?

1:50

I'm doing well. Thank you for having me. I'm happy

1:53

to be joining you. Oh, we're thrilled to have you

1:55

and your expertise. We were talking

1:57

before we started recording how you also

1:59

are an expert in the area of

2:02

gender and crime. And

2:04

today, we're dealing

2:06

with two criminals

2:09

who are females, so I'll be very

2:12

curious to get your insight in all of this.

2:14

You know, the first story we're gonna tackle doctor

2:17

Davies. I am very

2:19

troubled by because the

2:22

most vulnerable that

2:24

we have would be a little baby born premature

2:27

in a neonatal unit to

2:29

be cared for. And here, according

2:31

to authorities, we find that the person

2:33

responsible for torturing and

2:35

killing them is the nurse

2:38

on duty who's there to

2:40

safeguard them. It's sickening.

2:44

Yeah. It's a horrific case. mean, we've heard

2:46

of other angel of deaths, but

2:48

one where she's killing babies

2:51

is just over

2:53

the top, something I haven't seen before.

2:56

We often hear situations

2:59

where they're killing older people, rather

3:01

than the very young. Oh

3:03

my goodness. Wow. Okay. What an education

3:06

we're gonna get today? So let's dive into this

3:08

horrific case. Our first case

3:10

is about a hospital nurse accused

3:12

of killing seven babies and attempting to

3:14

kill another ten. Now,

3:17

this case is going on in Manchester

3:19

England, the accused nurse has finally

3:21

been brought to trial because this thing's

3:23

been going on for years. Thirty two

3:25

year old Lucy Letby is being

3:27

called by prosecutors a

3:30

serial killer. I

3:32

call her diabolical and

3:34

evil. I realized presumed innocent

3:37

until guilty but

3:40

there are seven babies that

3:42

are dead and other babies

3:44

who have suffered consequences allegedly

3:46

at her hands. The BBC reports

3:49

that she tried to kill one baby

3:51

three times This

3:54

is insanity. This is insanity.

3:57

Okay. Let let I'll do a little

3:59

bit more detail,

3:59

doctor, and then you can jump in

4:02

here. she's accused of killing healthy babies

4:04

who she was supposed to be caring for.

4:07

In one case, the mother of the baby.

4:09

walked in on the nurse allegedly. At

4:11

this point, she is allegedly killing the

4:13

baby. But the mom didn't

4:16

know what she was seeing. The mother thought

4:18

that she saw a nurse tending

4:20

to her baby, but that is not at

4:22

all. What what happened? She's

4:24

pleaded not guilty to murdering five

4:26

baby boys two baby girls at

4:28

the countess of Chester Hospital, but

4:31

she faces twenty two charges for

4:33

seventeen victims.

4:36

So, doctor Davies, one

4:38

of the huge problems with this case

4:40

because the the cases go back,

4:43

you know, to twenty fifteen. was

4:46

figuring out why these babies were

4:48

dying. All of a sudden, the numbers spiked

4:50

at the hospital. So what is it about

4:52

this type of a crime.

4:55

This type of a murder that makes it so

4:57

difficult for authorities to

5:00

not only investigate but come up with enough

5:02

evidence.

5:03

I think part of it is, if we think

5:06

about it, people do die in the

5:08

hospital. We do have emergencies

5:09

that happen in the hospital, but I think

5:12

part of it is just pulling it together and

5:14

realizing something's happened.

5:15

I think had she been killing,

5:17

let's say, older people or COVID patients?

5:20

It might have even taken longer to

5:22

have found

5:23

her to be the person doing this because

5:26

we might not have thought this is unusual because

5:28

these were young these are newborn

5:30

babies.

5:32

I I think they were really

5:34

looking into it maybe more closely than they would

5:36

be. There were more suspect even if it was a neonatal

5:39

unit. I think that would be part

5:41

of it. Interesting. And

5:43

and the way that she did it, you know,

5:45

that she's alleged to have done it is

5:48

that it then manifests in a medical

5:50

fashion in which you can

5:53

find an answer and say, oh,

5:55

Well, the child was in distress. The lungs

5:57

were in distress. There was an issue

5:59

losing blood.

5:59

These kinds of things. But

6:02

for most part. Even though these babies

6:04

were vulnerable, that's why they were in the

6:06

neonatal unit because and many of them

6:08

were twins. She had a thing for twins.

6:10

What is that

6:11

about doctor?

6:13

I I don't know. I don't know. I think

6:15

you you make an excellent point. And and

6:17

my understanding is that she took

6:20

different

6:20

ways to do it. And in case maybe

6:22

It was putting oxygen in the bloodstream,

6:26

and by

6:26

using different methods, that would also

6:28

make it difficult because there was a clear

6:30

pattern, even if they were all happening in

6:33

this one place,

6:34

different methods would make

6:36

you think

6:37

I can't be something that somebody's

6:39

doing. It's just all these individual cases

6:42

that we have these horrible tragedies. And

6:44

the other pattern that authorities found were,

6:47

you know, because obviously neonatal units

6:49

are very secure. You know,

6:51

you can't just go in there There's

6:54

a lot of monitoring of who's in and

6:56

out, and they started

6:58

to find the one common denominator and

7:00

it was nurse Lucy. The other

7:03

pattern that they saw was she moved

7:05

to days, like, you know, because they work

7:07

around the clock. She works a day shift, babies

7:09

are dying in the day. She works a night shift, babies

7:11

are dying. So it almost was

7:13

like whatever shift she worked on,

7:16

then that's when these

7:18

deaths would occur. And what

7:21

what confounds me is

7:23

when she went after the twins. We

7:25

have we have a few of those. We're gonna get into it.

7:27

She she allegedly kills she's

7:30

responsible for the death of one twin. And

7:32

then like within twenty four hours, she's killing the

7:34

other twin. Can you I can't even imagine

7:36

horror of these parents.

7:38

No. No. And it seems like she was

7:40

so brazen

7:40

in doing it, to be doing it, and having a parent

7:42

walk in.

7:43

It's just and we often

7:45

say this, what was she thinking? It's

7:49

just

7:49

incredible. Yeah, it's

7:52

really unbelievable. And it was the

7:54

the hospital itself the medical

7:56

staff, the doctors who were all of a sudden,

7:58

like, wait a minute. Because they're they

8:00

happened to quickly meaning one twin

8:02

dies in twenty four hours, the other twin dies.

8:05

of something else. It's not like it

8:07

was one death occasionally

8:09

where it'd be harder to find a pattern. So the

8:12

SPIKE HAPPENED VERY QUICKLY AND DOCTORS

8:14

WERE VERY WORRIED THEY START AN INVESTIGATION

8:17

AND THEY CALL THE POLICE AND

8:19

THAT'S HOW THEY START UNRAVELING THIS.

8:21

sadly, they weren't able to get all

8:23

of what I would say the kind

8:25

of evidence that you would

8:27

get through corners or autopsy.

8:29

Because at the time, with these little babies.

8:31

It's so tragic. Again, initially,

8:34

they thought that there were other

8:36

reasons why the babies were dying. So

8:40

prosecutors have not released the

8:42

identities of the babies or

8:45

of their parents. So during the proceedings

8:47

and the court, the trials going on now,

8:49

we've got some up dates for you. For

8:52

the jurors and for everyone, the babies

8:54

are referred to as baby a,

8:56

baby c, baby c, None

8:59

of this is done in a disrespectful way

9:02

to the victims or the survivors. It

9:04

is about protecting them

9:07

and their parents these families

9:09

have been through enough, and so the

9:11

courts and the prosecutors have decided that

9:13

this is the best way. So I want you to

9:15

know all of you that we

9:18

honor these these babies that we've lost,

9:20

and we are not being disrespectful in

9:22

in how we refer to them, this is how

9:24

the court is handling it, and this is their decision.

9:27

So let's get to the first victim here. I'm getting

9:29

so emotional, I mean, I'm just I'm so

9:32

upset. I'm I'm just

9:34

there's nothing more exciting and beautiful

9:36

than that little baby. You know? The hope

9:38

of life, the hope of everything. Parents

9:40

are so elated. They're so excited to meet the

9:43

little baby that they, you know,

9:44

mothers have been carrying like, oh, there you

9:46

are.

9:46

Now I can see what you look like. You know,

9:48

it's like that moment. Oh, okay.

9:52

So let's get to the first victim here, baby

9:54

a. was a boy who was born with a

9:56

twin sister, so sister is b.

9:59

And the two were born on June eighth of twenty

10:01

fifteen. They were reportedly in

10:03

good health. you

10:04

know, breathing

10:04

fine on their own despite

10:07

being born premature. So

10:09

about eight twenty five PM, this

10:11

is on that same day. baby

10:13

a starts deteriorating rapidly. In

10:16

less than an hour, this

10:18

is within an hour of nurse

10:21

Lucy here taking over. A

10:23

half hour later by nine o'clock, baby a

10:25

was pronounced dead. Doctors

10:28

concluded that the death was likely

10:30

due to an injection of air into the child's

10:32

umbilical catheter.

10:34

You know, all these babies have a lot of catheters.

10:36

They have tubes up their little noses. You

10:39

know, it can be very jarring to a parent

10:41

to see babies in the neonatal unit.

10:45

So now, baby A dies. Now,

10:48

according to prosecutors,

10:49

she goes after

10:51

his

10:52

sister. A

10:54

day later,

10:55

twin sister baby d suffers from

10:57

a sudden drop in oxygen levels in her blood

10:59

nurse Lucy allegedly

11:01

administered a bag of liquid nutrition

11:04

to to the baby. Even though she was

11:06

not the designated nurse, this would have been

11:08

my first red flag. what the heck

11:10

are you doing, Karen, for this baby?

11:13

When baby baby stopped breathing, the alarm

11:15

sounded, these alarms sound when a patient

11:17

is in in a critical condition. So

11:20

when baby baby stopped breathing, that alarm sounded

11:23

warning doctors of the child's severe

11:25

condition, doctors were able to revive

11:27

the child and she ultimately survived

11:30

the attack. It was later theorized.

11:32

It was medical sabotage. And the only reasonable

11:34

explanation of her decline was an

11:36

air bubble administered into

11:39

her bloodstream. Isn't this

11:41

crazy?

11:42

Yeah. Not that

11:44

I would ever be a murderer, but sometimes you stop

11:47

and think, if you murdered one baby,

11:50

why would you turn around and go

11:52

after the twin? You would think you'd get caught.

11:54

It just doesn't seem logical.

11:57

But of course, this isn't logical. Somebody killing

11:59

babies isn't logical.

12:01

And the fact that we're dealing with

12:04

what police are calling a serial killer here,

12:06

we don't usually find a lot

12:08

of female serial killers.

12:11

What do you make of this? No, we

12:13

don't. And most

12:15

serial killers, in fact, most people who

12:18

kill our men, about over

12:20

the time period of

12:22

modern history, about twelve percent of killers

12:25

in the United States are women. And then if you

12:27

go down to serial killers, very,

12:29

very few are women. Sometimes the ones

12:31

that are women are killing with men.

12:33

And then others

12:37

do tend to be

12:38

angels of death though, or

12:41

taking advantage of people who are older,

12:43

maybe Casey will find a

12:45

woman who's killed several husbands over

12:47

time, but not something like this

12:49

where it's one after another

12:51

after another. This is this is extremely

12:53

rare. And we don't have a

12:56

clear motive here. Prosecutors have said they are

12:58

they are dumbfounded. They cannot find a motive

13:00

here. And I think when it comes to serial

13:02

killers, in the cases I've covered, there

13:04

really isn't a motive. There is a true

13:07

defect in these individuals.

13:09

A lot of times they're sociopaths or

13:12

there's some other kind of mental disorder

13:14

or they're

13:15

they're out to hurt people and they get

13:17

pleasure from hurting people. and you just wonder

13:20

what

13:20

is this nurse Lucy getting from this?

13:23

I wouldn't be surprised to find out she was sociopath

13:27

It's hard not to wonder about her upbringing,

13:30

but we can't it's not always parents.

13:32

It's complicated. And

13:35

it's not like a case where sometimes

13:37

we see this with kind of

13:39

like the variations of munchausen.

13:42

where you have someone who causes

13:44

the distress, the problem, and

13:46

then swoops in to be the hero to

13:48

fix it. And

13:51

we don't see that. It's not like she

13:53

puts the child in a crisis mode

13:56

and then rescues the baby.

13:59

That's

13:59

that's an excellent point. I hadn't thought of

14:01

that yet. That that is we do see that.

14:03

What especially among

14:05

mothers is the other thing I thought about this. This

14:07

isn't fantasize. It's the killing of newborns

14:10

of babies, when a

14:12

baby is found murdered,

14:14

which wouldn't usually be in hospital. It's usually

14:16

mother who's done it, quite honestly, when it's brand

14:19

new. And there's all kinds of explanations.

14:22

You know, these things are psychologically related

14:26

but just to have somebody who's

14:28

essentially a stranger

14:30

to a baby

14:31

killing the babies is just just

14:34

I

14:35

was just shocked to learn that this is the case I

14:37

was gonna be discussing or and having heard

14:39

a little bit about this case. It's just it's

14:41

just such an unusual case. I'll be curious

14:43

to see if we find out more about

14:45

nurses to see one way I don't want to because

14:47

I don't want attention on people who do this.

14:49

But the other as a

14:51

criminologist, I'm curious what

14:54

did motivate her or what explains why

14:56

she's doing what she did? Doctor

14:59

Davies, lot of times with serial killers,

15:02

they the frequency of the

15:04

killing, you know, can be slow

15:06

at first, and then police

15:09

will find an acceleration. in

15:11

the killing because whatever

15:14

pleasure their sick minds

15:17

are deriving from this act

15:19

they they kind of need to do it more frequently and

15:22

that is when obviously authorities

15:24

are the most worried because it's, you

15:26

know, you're trying to find someone because you know someone's

15:28

gonna be killed relatively soon.

15:31

he

15:32

It seems as if it's like it starts

15:34

out of nowhere, it's like zero to sixty, boom,

15:37

she starts killing, and then

15:40

she keeps up the pace. And

15:42

I would ask you, is it possible how

15:45

could this really be the first time, you

15:47

know, if she really is the killer

15:49

here that this would happen? It's like,

15:52

what is this? Add water instant serial

15:54

killer? Yeah.

15:55

What is it that did she just get so

15:57

much

15:58

pleasure from this? Or

15:59

or did was it really be kind some

16:02

kind of tension or stress in her? that

16:04

she just felt that she kept doing

16:06

it.

16:07

I can't help but believe it's something psychological.

16:11

Do you believe that it is

16:13

like or unlikely that she has killed

16:15

before given this very swift

16:18

pattern.

16:18

I don't know. I mean, if we take even so

16:20

many, like, studio color damer.

16:23

He killed a lot there before

16:26

he was caught. But if you trace his history,

16:28

he killed once when he was younger. So

16:31

you know, I don't know. I he

16:33

his case would say maybe she has.

16:38

But I

16:38

don't know I don't know her history. I don't know if she's been in

16:40

nurse other places. I don't know maybe this is why

16:42

she went into nursing.

16:43

Right. Right. It's very hard to know.

16:46

These things are always a mystery. because

16:48

of, you know, we're always asking the

16:50

why. The motivation, you know, if

16:52

it's a love triangle, if it's a

16:55

deal gone bad, if you're about to be exposed,

16:58

self defense. What you know, there

17:00

are answers. You they

17:03

never justify the criminal

17:05

act of murder but you'll be like, oh,

17:07

okay. But with this one, there is just

17:09

there is no way that I will ever hear

17:11

an answer, that will be good enough, but it

17:13

would be helpful to understand. this

17:16

further.

17:19

So let's continue on with all these victims.

17:21

According to the prosecution, Nurse

17:23

Lucy's next victim was taken a few days

17:25

later on June fourteenth of twenty

17:27

fifteen. The infant baby

17:29

c arrived in the neonatal unit premature

17:32

weighing less than two pounds. That is

17:34

one tiny little baby. Baby

17:36

C was under the care of another less

17:38

experienced nurse, and nurse Lucy was

17:40

given explicit instructions to care

17:42

for different infant in that unit.

17:45

These nurses are assigned. When

17:47

baby sees nurse went

17:50

to the nursing station, she

17:52

heard the infant alarm going off.

17:54

And when she returned, she found nurse

17:56

Lucy Letby standing there next

17:58

to the boys bassinette.

18:01

She reportedly asked a coworker to

18:04

be left in charge of baby c

18:06

prior to the incident saying that it would be

18:08

cathartic for her, it would help her

18:10

well-being to see a living baby in

18:12

a space in a space previously occupied

18:15

by a dead baby. Remember we've had a

18:17

baby die. station

18:20

the baby c was stationed in the same room

18:22

as baby a who had died a few days

18:24

earlier. Does that give you any insight into this insanity?

18:28

Yeah. I wonder what her colleagues

18:30

were thinking about her at this time. Were they

18:32

thinking, well, let's help her and they

18:35

believed her? She said such a sociopath

18:37

perhaps that she was very believable, or

18:39

were they getting vibe

18:40

to see off of her, you know, thinking, wow,

18:43

this, you

18:43

know, who is the this Lucy nurse.

18:46

Yeah. I wonder. I don't know.

18:48

She was

18:51

able to initially revive baby

18:53

c and there

18:55

had been long, prolonged episodes

18:57

of low oxygen that had slowed

19:00

the baby's heart rate. Babies c was pronounced

19:02

dead later that day. Investigators

19:05

believe he died of excessive air in his

19:07

gut that they believe that this time the

19:09

nurse injected air through the nasal

19:11

gastric tube. As we said, we see these babies

19:13

all the time. They have little tubes

19:15

and and little things everywhere. In

19:18

another instance, So this

19:20

is the one that just drives me crazy.

19:22

So the mother of premature twins,

19:24

these are babies ENF walked

19:26

into the unit saw nurse Lucy holding

19:28

one of her boys. Now the baby was bleeding

19:30

from the mouth or the nose area and the mother was

19:32

obviously concerned. And so

19:35

nurse Lucy told the mother not to worry.

19:37

It's just irritation from the tube. Okay.

19:39

That sounds potentially logical.

19:41

And then she said this to the mother. trust

19:44

me. I'm a nurse. So of course, the

19:46

mother believes in the medical staff.

19:49

Five hours later, baby

19:52

f was dead. I

19:55

don't even know how that poor parent feels

19:57

right now because if that were me, I'd

19:59

be like, I should have jumped in

20:01

there. I should have you know, gotten this

20:03

woman off my baby. But

20:04

how would you know? How would you

20:06

know? You're exhausted. You just delivered

20:09

two babies.

20:10

they're telling me that all these parents feel

20:12

horrible, but they they're

20:15

not to be blamed. This this

20:17

she knew what she was doing and she

20:19

was very good at manipulation. I

20:22

know. I know. Oh my god. So

20:24

the doctor who was present when that twin

20:26

died, test find that the infant lost

20:28

over a quarter of

20:31

his total blood volume before

20:33

his death. The doctor said he had never seen

20:35

a baby bleed like this, for. So

20:37

an extraordinary death that,

20:40

you know, immediately makes you wonder, it's

20:42

like, wait a minute. Something's really

20:44

wrong here. but the child's

20:46

death was initially ruled as being caused

20:48

by gastrointestinal disorder. No

20:51

post mortem was performed

20:53

as we said A lot of vital information

20:55

was lost in the beginning when the

20:58

staff just didn't know what was going on here.

21:01

Nurse Lucy then went after

21:03

that baby's twin brother. Okay?

21:06

So this obsession with twins.

21:09

I went I wonder if something must have

21:11

happened in her life to be so obsessed with these

21:13

twins. So now twenty

21:15

four hours after the first twin dies,

21:18

She then administers insulin

21:21

through the baby's feeding bag

21:24

tube, and baby F was

21:26

revived by actors and ultimately survived

21:29

that attack. So,

21:32

also, some of the victims have survived.

21:34

One of the victims survived is a three

21:37

month old baby, but this

21:39

baby suffered irreparable brain

21:41

damage. There were three attempts to kill

21:43

this baby. by injecting

21:46

air into the milk. Oh

21:48

my god. It's unbelievable. And

21:50

again, we cannot figure out this

21:53

this motive, but the investigators

21:55

have revealed that after the deaths,

21:57

she they found in

22:00

her search history that

22:02

she was obsessed following on social

22:04

media all the parents. Is it

22:06

is it tantalizing to them you

22:08

know, to a serial killer, to

22:11

She she seemed to have something

22:13

about power and control. Definitely.

22:15

I also wonder, the

22:17

thing about twins I

22:19

wonder if she had something

22:21

about twins or

22:22

in a neonatal unit, you're more likely

22:24

to have twins. So maybe it's

22:26

statistically just more likely

22:28

to have twins there

22:29

because, you know, they're born smaller

22:31

ah So

22:33

I'd be curious if there were

22:35

non twins there and if she

22:37

just went after the twins because that might tell

22:40

us something. There might be some insight there. there

22:42

might be. I mean, it's all a guessing game at

22:44

this point. It's also been revealed a

22:46

trial that she sent a sympathy card to the

22:48

parents of the baby that she's accused

22:51

of killing in her fourth

22:53

attempt. You know, that was the baby where she

22:55

tried and tried and she finally, on the fourth time,

22:57

killed the baby. She kept a copy of

22:59

the card on her phone and she had let allegedly

23:02

had some medical records of some

23:04

of the victims. Prosecutors suggest

23:07

that this could be like serial killers

23:09

when they keep souvenirs. What do you make of

23:11

that? Does that seem like a possible

23:14

a possibility? It does. It can seem like

23:16

sometimes they they keep the souvenirs to

23:18

kind of relive the crime and it would

23:20

seem like what she's keeping would be a

23:22

way for her to think about

23:24

what she's done and get whatever satisfaction

23:26

she's getting out of that from looking at

23:28

those souvenirs. It's

23:31

really sickening. In fact, you know, because this

23:33

trial is going on, forgive me, we've

23:35

got some will our producer got

23:37

some new details today from what happened

23:39

in corn, obviously, time differences.

23:42

So today, prosecutors presented

23:45

handwritten notes that were found

23:47

in the search of nurse Lucy's

23:50

home. So it's interesting they're

23:52

being viewed as proclamations of innocence,

23:54

and then others seem like they could be confessions.

23:57

It's kinda hard to read into things. So

23:59

in one, it seemed that she was preparing

24:01

to defend herself, quote, what

24:03

allegations have been made. And by who,

24:05

question mark, do they have written evidence

24:08

to support their comments. I don't

24:10

think that that's unusual. Right?

24:13

You're gonna defend yourself. Whether you're

24:15

guilty or innocent, Right? I I don't read

24:17

much into that. In another appearing

24:19

to be maybe a confession, I wanna hear your opinion

24:22

on this. She wrote quote, I killed them

24:24

on purpose because I'm not

24:26

good enough. That kinda sounds

24:28

like a confession doesn't it? I and

24:30

then the and the first thing you said, you

24:32

made me think of Ted Bundy and other serial

24:34

killers, including one that I attended

24:37

his trial here, locally where

24:39

I live, where they serial

24:41

killers wanted to defend themselves. They're they're

24:43

they're so certain. They're

24:46

the smartest people that they are gonna

24:48

talk for themselves. They're gonna defend themselves. And

24:51

she sounds like she might be like that. I

24:53

imagine she does have a defense person,

24:55

but some of that writing sounds like that.

24:57

And then she ended another note saying,

24:59

quote, I am evil

25:01

I did this.

25:05

No no disputing here. No,

25:07

not at all. again,

25:10

you know, my guess is she's

25:12

going to

25:13

if convicted,

25:15

she's going to be studied because

25:18

because because she's so

25:20

unusual in the world of

25:22

serial killers. Yeah.

25:24

Although based on what you're sharing with

25:26

us, there are some patterns that she

25:29

shares with some notorious killers.

25:31

Yeah. Yeah. And she's unusual because

25:33

she's a woman, woman because we don't see many

25:35

killing baby. But I don't know if you remember

25:37

Harold Shipman. He's another angel

25:40

of death. He's was in England as well.

25:43

He was convicted of killing fifteen of

25:45

his patients. He was

25:47

a doctor, but he's believed to

25:49

have killed his money. He's two hundred and fifty.

25:51

Oh, my God. Lord. and that took

25:53

longer to see a pattern because

25:56

it wasn't in any animal unit here

25:59

as horrible as this was at least

26:02

the

26:02

authorities were paying attention

26:04

and and cut on. Yeah. And we're

26:06

able to finally stop this

26:08

lunatic. SO POLICE BEGAN

26:11

INVESTIGATING THE DEPS IN MAY

26:13

OF twenty seventeen. REMEMBER THEY STARTED

26:15

BACK IN twenty fifteen. yeah,

26:18

it definitely took a while for them to figure out

26:20

the patterns. And as you said, because

26:22

babies do die and people do die

26:24

in hospitals, But

26:26

statistically, there are averages. There

26:28

can be anomalies, but

26:30

for the most part, this was a

26:33

spike. So Nurse

26:36

Letby was officially charged in November

26:38

of twenty twenty. Her friends and family

26:41

were surprised. I read

26:43

some of the comments to the

26:45

reporters and they

26:48

she was described as being amazing,

26:50

a kind hearted person. Don't

26:53

you find with some of the serial killers,

26:55

certainly like a bundy? that

26:58

there's a certain charm to them.

27:01

Yeah. Often, there is that

27:04

when people are surprised And that's

27:06

the way

27:07

they're able to trip

27:09

people into coming with them or in this case,

27:11

the you know, she's I'm a nurse, trust me. And

27:13

the

27:15

mother trusted.

27:16

Yeah. It's because, you know, when you think of a serial

27:19

killer, you're thinking of, like, you know,

27:21

some horrific monster, and they are

27:23

monsters, but it

27:25

is always interesting to me

27:27

how Not all of them,

27:29

like, there's There's a recent

27:32

one here in the United States. Is it Sam

27:34

Little? Samuel Little. Yeah. Yeah.

27:36

There's nothing redeeming about him. Although

27:38

he's a tricky one because his artwork

27:41

is fascinating. And and those of

27:43

you who've been following that case, you

27:45

know, he he killed for a very long

27:47

time. He's been convicted and

27:50

he helped prosecutors and

27:52

the FBI figure

27:55

out some of his victims

27:57

who were, you know, women who

27:59

are more on the fringe, maybe

28:02

in the sex trade, maybe addicted

28:04

to drugs, women who had been

28:06

missing for a long time. So it was harder

28:08

to to find the victims. So what he did was

28:11

he's made

28:12

these portraits from memory

28:14

of

28:14

his victims, and

28:16

then the FBI posted them,

28:18

and then all these families came forward

28:21

and said, oh my god, that looks like my aunt, that looks

28:23

like my mother, that looks like my daughter. And

28:26

through that, it's unbelievable

28:28

this case. They were able to

28:30

identify more of his victims.

28:33

And so, professor, I

28:36

I, you know, I look at his art

28:39

Right? And then

28:41

I see a talent and I

28:44

see

28:44

a level of beauty And then

28:46

I'm reminded, my god, this is someone he

28:49

killed. Like, how do you reconcile that?

28:51

Yeah. He didn't even know their names. He can remember

28:53

what they looked like, but he couldn't remember their names.

28:55

just

28:57

horrible. But humans

28:59

are complicated. When I teach sociology

29:02

classes, I I note that

29:05

You think your chemistry class is hard, but

29:07

chemicals react in certain way all the time.

29:11

Humans were unpredictable. There's

29:13

so many things that impact how

29:15

we behave. There's our chemicals,

29:17

but there's also our environments.

29:20

What influences us? You

29:22

know, it's

29:23

we're and we see patterns,

29:25

but there can be exceptions

29:27

to those patterns, like like our

29:29

nurse Lucy today. I know. And

29:31

she was specially trained in this area. As

29:33

far as anyone can tell, there had been no

29:35

prior complaints to her. you

29:38

know, she was even

29:41

mentioned in a newspaper article

29:43

when they were talking about, you know, the

29:45

importance of these units. And so until

29:47

mean, this is someone who was well regarded,

29:50

liked. And when you see the photos of her holding

29:52

babies and she's so happy, I mean,

29:54

really Does this woman look to you

29:56

like a serial killer of babies? No.

29:59

And that's the scary

29:59

thing. Yeah. That's

30:02

the scary thing. Well,

30:04

this trial is going to go on for some

30:06

time. It's expected to last six

30:09

months we will keep everyone

30:11

posted on the updates on this,

30:13

and frankly, let's hope

30:14

for a conviction here.

30:18

Our next case is out of Colorado Springs

30:21

where a woman is charged with kidnapping and

30:23

attacking her Tinder date.

30:25

Twenty two year old Lauren Dooley is

30:27

accused of kidnapping a man she met on Tinder.

30:30

And on their first state police said,

30:32

she actually held him hostage for five hours

30:34

of this state. It sounds horrible.

30:37

You know what I said early on, you

30:39

know, she has an innocent look about her.

30:42

She's youthful And obviously,

30:45

you know, she's twenty two. But

30:47

there's,

30:47

you know, there are

30:50

people who, let's say, are

30:52

you know, very glamorous or whatever

30:55

or, you know, you see a deadness in

30:57

their eyes.

30:58

She isn't like We know based

31:00

on her vote, even her mugshot, she seems.

31:03

This, again, it's so

31:05

disturbing. I realize we can't base

31:07

anything on this, but It is

31:09

very disturbing. The victim is a twenty

31:11

one year old man, his name, since he

31:14

is a victim of crime, is not being released.

31:17

He agreed to meet Lauren at her Colorado

31:19

Springs apartment. Things appear to be going well

31:21

for the guy according to the arrest affidavit

31:23

after she performed some moral sex. she

31:26

asked him, let's go to the bedroom and he's like,

31:28

okay. And that's

31:30

when things got first

31:33

HE THOUGHT OF IT MORE AS I WOULD SAY KINKY.

31:35

THIS IS HOW HE DESCRIBED IT TO THE POLICE THAT

31:38

SHE WANTED TO SHE BOUND HIS

31:40

HANDS, HIS FEET, HIS RISKS, with

31:42

duct tape. And and he said to the police,

31:44

he he said, it's little odd, but

31:47

I went with it. So at this point, he's still

31:49

agreeing here. And then

31:51

she pulls out a knife and then she cuts

31:53

him and then it gets a lot

31:55

worse from there. This all happened on September

31:58

twenty eighth of this year.

31:59

Okay. So just initially

32:02

here, professor, what what

32:04

do you make of this? There's so

32:06

much in this case. There's so much If

32:09

this were the other way around how

32:11

we are true how we are socializes

32:14

women to react to situations, had

32:16

this and I'm not blaming a victim.

32:18

This guy was a victim, no doubt. But

32:20

how women what we're told about

32:23

going to other people's houses and things like that,

32:25

so there's all that But then, just

32:27

that this woman

32:29

is the offender. It's so atypical and

32:31

and so much that happened there. There's just so

32:33

much to unpack in this case. So what

32:36

do you you know, you keep saying that generally

32:37

women are not the criminals here.

32:39

So are you seeing a change

32:41

over the decades Or is it

32:43

just that maybe we're covering

32:45

these cases so we think maybe we hear

32:47

of them more? Statistically, are they

32:50

increasing?

32:51

statistically, I don't

32:53

think overall they're increasing, but we are hearing

32:56

about them more. Overall,

32:58

And

32:59

and there's always underreported there's always

33:01

underreported crime, especially underreported

33:04

cases of sexual violence. And And

33:07

we would expect men and

33:10

women actually who are attacked by women

33:12

were more likely and perhaps not

33:14

reported, so we expect that to be underreported, but

33:17

still knowing that of all

33:21

violent crimes, reports police only

33:23

about two percent of them

33:25

are the offenders women. So it's

33:27

a very small number. But

33:29

like this case, when there are women

33:31

offenders, they do tend to be younger. We see it

33:33

a little bit more with juveniles. So

33:35

this is some of the research out there,

33:37

and this is even under researched

33:40

area, women offenders

33:42

because there are fewer. But that

33:44

doesn't mean they don't exist. Some

33:47

of them, as I mentioned even with the serial killers

33:49

earlier, some of the

33:51

most horrendous women's offenders

33:54

of sexual violence have done it with their partners,

33:57

with

33:57

their male partners. But this is a woman

33:59

who didn't do that. So again, this is kind

34:02

of an atypical case today. I

34:04

find that when the victim is

34:07

a male, whether he has been attacked

34:09

by a female or another male

34:11

in a situation similar to this

34:13

that covered a case up in Canada

34:15

of a of a serial killer. And

34:19

the man who was attacked, it was the same

34:21

thing. He he

34:23

met someone online recently moved to the

34:25

area, and he

34:28

had the picture. They never talked on the phone.

34:32

Thought he was meeting a pretty blonde woman.

34:34

and he he he did

34:36

notice that there were some odd things like

34:39

the the woman who turns

34:41

out to be a man, The woman

34:43

says or the the date says to him, oh, I need

34:46

when you come to come pick me up for

34:48

dinner, I want you to pick me up and you you

34:50

know, you're meeting someone the first time, you don't want anybody

34:52

near your house or anything like that, you eat

34:54

them there, you tell your friend, you

34:56

know, I'm gonna be here at this time, call

34:58

me at this time. If you don't hear from me, call the police,

35:00

you know, the whole thing. We all have that worked out.

35:03

And so but the the

35:05

date said you have to drive this

35:07

way, very specific route again.

35:10

Thought it was kinda weird, but people are

35:12

weird. Right? He drives and it's back

35:14

end of the house. It's a garage.

35:17

And as he's just standing there,

35:19

trying to figure out how to get in, Bam,

35:22

he's whacked over the head, he's pulled in,

35:24

and it and the person who's covered and has

35:27

a mask, but it turns out to be a man, nearly

35:29

killed the guy. Nearly he's screaming.

35:32

He's screaming and and

35:34

no one is reacting and you know why?

35:37

Because the man, the killer,

35:39

Oh

35:39

my god,

35:41

likes to make horror movies in his

35:43

garage.

35:43

Horse.

35:44

Right? So because the neighbors

35:47

know that the guy makes horror movies,

35:49

slimky movies in his garage. Right?

35:53

They're used to hearing people

35:55

screaming for help. It was the worst

35:58

possible mixture of

35:59

all things in this. And so, but

36:02

the man manages to get away. He manages

36:04

to get away, but he doesn't call

36:06

the police. because he's so embarrassed.

36:08

He doesn't even tell his friends. He

36:10

doesn't. And then, like, I don't know if

36:13

it's a few weeks or a few months later. Forgive

36:15

me if I don't remember the exact details. This

36:17

happens to someone else, but they get

36:19

killed. And then the first

36:22

victim is like, oh my god.

36:24

oh my god, this sounds like what happened to me. I have

36:26

to go to the police. And because of

36:28

him, they were able obviously to go

36:31

to the address, all this other stuff and

36:33

tie everything together. Is

36:34

that crazy?

36:36

Yeah. It's it's one of the reasons

36:38

we should report it for victims, but it

36:41

lot of people don't. There's a lot of

36:43

shame in

36:44

our society for that. It's wheat's

36:46

gotten lot better in the twenty some

36:48

years I've been a a criminologist,

36:52

we have gotten better. We're we recognize victims.

36:54

We don't blame victims as much. but

36:56

it still happens. Yeah. Sadly, it

36:58

does. Alright. So back to this case, so

37:03

they're in the bedroom now. and he's tied

37:05

up and it's gone from a

37:07

little interesting and kinky to dangerous.

37:10

So she gets on top of him. This

37:12

is all in the arrest affidavit. She gets

37:14

on top of him and then she uses a knife to cut

37:16

his shoulder. Now he's freaking out. It's like, whoa.

37:18

This is crazy. And then she

37:22

then used her this is

37:24

according to him. He

37:25

tells police that she used her bare hands

37:27

to choke him and then

37:30

she got a belt to choke him

37:32

even further.

37:33

And then

37:35

she removes the belt and

37:37

she checks his pulse to make sure that he's

37:39

alive.

37:39

Is it that she was trying to kill

37:41

him?

37:42

Or she didn't wanna kill him?

37:45

then she becomes all upset because he's bleeding

37:47

all over her sheets. Well, you cut him.

37:49

Of course, he's bleeding. Right? So it's

37:52

like, what is wrong with this woman? So

37:54

she demands that he goes in the bathtub because

37:56

she doesn't want any of the blood on on

37:58

her bed anymore. So the guy gets

38:00

in the bathtub. And he's bleeding. Alright? Then

38:03

She's holding him hostage, and I guess

38:05

she gets tired and hungry,

38:06

so she orders food from DoorDash.

38:10

I don't

38:12

what is it about people that when they're

38:14

in the middle of committing a crime, then

38:16

they stop and they do something so

38:18

pedestrian.

38:19

I don't know. I've I've talked to some

38:22

practitioners or some police detectives

38:25

in the FBI and they said sometimes

38:27

people will break into people's asses and eat their food.

38:30

It's something I don't know. They're exhausted. Yeah.

38:32

Yeah. They're exhausted and they're hungry. And and,

38:34

you know, that's just, I guess, a logical human

38:36

thing. It's like, you know, She's been wrestling with

38:38

this guy. It's been going on for hours. Your

38:41

adrenaline, and she may very well have just

38:43

it's as simple as she was hungry. but

38:45

it just gives you all this, like,

38:47

background into what the heck is going on

38:49

here. And he must have been so scared

38:51

because then she tells him, right, because

38:53

she's getting food and she's hungry. She says,

38:56

when the food delivery

38:58

person arrives, she says, if you scream or say anything,

39:00

I will kill you. Now if I'm him,

39:03

I'm gonna believe her.

39:05

I don't know whether I would scream or not.

39:07

I think I would have a better chance, you know, you

39:09

scream. There's someone out there. maybe

39:12

they'll call police. I don't know. What

39:14

is what happens to

39:15

people when they are the victim of a crime at this

39:17

point, and they they almost paralyzed. Yeah.

39:20

They're they're trying to

39:21

survive, and they they are gonna

39:24

listen to the person. I mean, they're they're

39:26

doing all they can just to be like,

39:28

imagine how frightening it would be to

39:30

be in that situation

39:33

where

39:33

this this woman, she don't she's

39:35

so unpredictable.

39:36

So not what you were expecting out

39:38

of this event. I mean,

39:40

this guy was expecting to have

39:43

fun, to have sex with this person, and

39:45

he's in this unreal situation.

39:48

Just unreal. Yeah. Okay.

39:51

So then after her tummy is full, she's

39:53

like a bear that breaks in somewhere. Right?

39:56

after she has a full stomach, she

39:58

falls asleep next to the victim.

39:59

The guy's back in the bed. Okay.

40:03

She's asleep. So

40:04

this is his time to get away. He finds

40:06

the knife that she was using. It was

40:08

under the blanket near his feet. You

40:11

know, he's been awake the whole time. He

40:13

manages to use the knife to remove

40:15

some of the duct tape and he makes his escape,

40:17

so he's collecting his things. And

40:19

as he's trying to get out, he accidentally

40:22

bumps into a table, makes a noise.

40:24

She hears it She runs

40:26

after him. The guy runs out of the apartment

40:29

naked and bleeding, and she's following

40:31

him. She's following him. So

40:34

this is the next part. They haven't released it but

40:36

this is gonna be really something. So

40:38

nine eleven gets a call and they

40:40

can hear the victim on

40:43

the call but they can also hear the

40:45

victim kind of in a in

40:47

a loud way talking to someone else and

40:49

they hear the other person. Okay?

40:51

So as the dispatcher, what

40:53

they're hearing on the other end is

40:55

they hear him screaming

40:58

to her Right.

41:00

Because you cut me. You are going

41:02

to kill me. Okay. So he's on nine eleven.

41:05

He's yelling at her. They're in a parking

41:07

lot. He's naked and bleeding. she's

41:10

coming after him. When the police

41:12

arrived, the neighbors were like, yeah, there's

41:14

a naked man in the parking

41:16

lot, and there's also a woman

41:19

She's covered in blood. He's bloody.

41:22

You know?

41:23

And they see, police see

41:25

that

41:25

he's trying to back away from her.

41:28

So they they have already

41:29

visual on the situation.

41:32

This is who it

41:34

the whole thing is crazy, but the fact

41:36

that she takes it outside into

41:40

a public area. What is it about people

41:42

that have, you know, if you commit

41:44

a crime, you're always thinking about

41:45

covering your tracks. It's not covering your

41:47

tracks. here? No.

41:48

Although, I I and then we'll

41:51

find out what happens in the

41:53

course of the case because

41:55

she's not convicted of course, and you you're always

41:58

really careful to say that one of the

41:59

things I like about about your podcast. But

42:02

what what if and I don't think this

42:05

happened, but I can imagine watching

42:07

something on a, you know, crime

42:09

of the week fiction

42:11

show, where he actually attacked her, and

42:13

this is his way of saying, no,

42:15

it was it was her and

42:17

and she got She stabbed me because she got the

42:20

knife away from me. I doubt that,

42:22

but

42:22

it could always be, and we don't know until

42:25

we find it everything out

42:27

that we can find out because

42:28

it's two people. And, yeah,

42:30

I I I'm very careful not to victim blame,

42:32

and he he went there and there's

42:35

a there's a chance everything he's saying is

42:37

absolutely true. Oh, we see this all

42:39

the time, but there's huge case that we've been

42:41

covering, you know, finally that

42:43

Lunatic has been convicted. This

42:46

is a woman who killed another woman who was pregnant

42:48

and cut out her baby and ran with it. And,

42:50

I mean, she told

42:52

the story that it was, oh, the woman

42:54

told me to take the baby because she was dying and

42:56

it was like, you know, oh, it's

42:58

like the attacker Right?

43:01

Changes the story. And then the

43:04

Vic, it's unclear. Yeah.

43:06

It's very possible that that might be her

43:08

defense. We see that on off a lot. It's like, it wasn't

43:10

me, it was him, you know. Yeah. But

43:12

I think at this point, that's where the forensics

43:14

will come in. And

43:16

based on his

43:19

wounds and injuries and

43:21

and her wounds and injuries and DNA

43:23

and and that will indicate a lot

43:25

as to what happened in that apartment. Police

43:28

searched her apartment and they found the kitchen

43:30

knife near the bed. They

43:32

found plenty of blood in

43:34

the bathtub blood soaked

43:37

drags. It was just a disaster. Lauren

43:40

was detained, but she refused to speak

43:42

with authorities. Lauren Duly has been

43:44

charged with felony counts of second

43:47

degree kidnapping, second degree

43:49

assault, menacing, and misdemeanor

43:51

false imprisonment her initial court

43:53

hearings scheduled for this morning, Thursday,

43:56

October thirteenth. We've been monitoring

43:58

it as of this recording. We don't

43:59

have anything updated. I'm

44:02

surprised that they didn't charge

44:04

her with attempted murder. Yeah.

44:06

I who knows? And then I mean,

44:08

there must have been enough evidence

44:10

to charge you with all of this or

44:12

or they wouldn't?

44:14

Right. Right. No. And these are indeed

44:16

serious. Without question, they are serious,

44:18

and he survived. man,

44:21

I can't wait to hear that nine eleven tape

44:24

and learn more about this case.

44:26

It is, as you said, you know, you

44:28

you go on these dates and you you

44:30

always, you know, try and be as safe as

44:32

possible, try to meet someone in a

44:34

public area, you know,

44:36

but nonetheless, even if they had met for

44:39

a drink or a coffee down the street, this

44:41

whole scenario could have still happened. It's

44:43

still gonna happen. I do think that that's something

44:45

you say we always were to women.

44:48

I think we were both probably raised. You always

44:51

pay attention to this. And I think

44:53

only more recently have we told guys

44:55

to pay attention to this and be wary. And

44:57

maybe we need to even emphasize

44:59

that a little more after this Oh,

45:02

absolutely. You know,

45:06

I have even I have a, you know,

45:08

young adult son I'm even warning

45:10

him and all of his friends. I'm always saying,

45:12

never leave a drink at the bar. You don't know who's

45:15

gonna put anything. I know. I sound like the

45:17

crazy mother, but yes, absolutely.

45:20

Men can opt can, of course,

45:22

be victims, and I think you have to be really

45:24

vigilant. You have to be a vigilant

45:27

person these days. Not man or

45:29

woman person.

45:32

Yeah.

45:32

It's unfortunate, but it's true.

45:34

I I also wonder about this

45:36

case of this galore and if she's

45:38

was on something. Just the fact that

45:40

that she was so hungry

45:43

that she went to sleep, that she's just

45:45

seemed so unpredictable.

45:47

I be curious. I imagine they

45:49

took

45:50

the

45:52

well, she she may not have they may

45:54

not have gotten any levels of

45:56

they may not have taken her blood. I don't know what

45:58

she you know, but often we find

45:59

if someone's done something, they're on

46:02

something at least alcohol. Alcohol is a common

46:04

drug that -- Mhmm. -- so I'm just curious

46:06

about that. Yeah.

46:07

Absolutely. And again, we're

46:10

basing everything on the arrest affidavit

46:12

and it's it's basically like

46:14

A STORY. IT'S THE STORY THAT THE VICTIM

46:16

TELLS THE POLICE AND BASED

46:18

ON THAT INFORMATION

46:19

AND THE EVIDENCE GATHERED THAT THEY'RE LIKE, YEAH,

46:21

LATEY. YOU'RE GOING Come on,

46:23

in

46:23

the back of the patrol car. We'll

46:27

follow this case as we always do. You

46:29

all know that we try and do that. I

46:32

I do, you know, professor, before before

46:34

we go, you know, our

46:36

cases were incredible this week, and we're

46:39

not gonna do comments. But I I am curious

46:42

We've had some other professors on before, and

46:44

I'm always very curious about your students.

46:48

And what it is that you all are

46:50

discussing and because

46:53

their, you know, their their minds are firing at

46:55

at a rapid pace. And I'm curious

46:57

as to how they view crime

46:59

or or, you know,

47:01

just it's it's a different generation.

47:04

Yeah. They're they're fascinated. They listened upon

47:06

Listen to podcasts as a lot a lot of

47:08

them

47:08

are very much curious

47:10

about True Crime. I

47:13

emphasized that A lot of the murder that

47:15

happens is actually confrontational homicide. It's

47:17

two people getting a fight over something and it

47:19

goes bad. It's not always these

47:22

serial killer cases and things like that. But

47:24

we we talk a lot about that. I

47:28

emphasize that Chrome's

47:30

going back up, but he, you know, hadn't gone down when

47:32

I was younger and it was way up. I

47:36

don't

47:36

know that they're

47:37

they're curious. A lot of them

47:39

want to go into the criminal justice

47:41

field. This who I have this term in my class

47:44

But

47:45

they they're still fascinated

47:47

by serial killers. They're they

47:50

look a little different life, I think, than than we have

47:52

definitely than I have in terms of

47:55

they grew up, Colin Biden had happened.

47:58

And

47:58

so they've always grown up with

48:00

mass murder, with that idea that that

48:02

might happen.

48:05

So I I think they're they've

48:08

got to be a less trusting society and

48:10

in some ways that's good because they're

48:12

maybe more cautious but it's also

48:15

the the it may make

48:17

the most trusting of,

48:18

you know, overall, it's just

48:21

I do believe I do

48:23

believe that these things that happen in your youth,

48:25

they they they stick with you and you remember

48:27

them. For example, when I was growing up, when

48:29

I was a teenager, son

48:32

of Sam, the New York serial

48:35

killer. He

48:38

was hunting for his victims

48:40

in the town I grew up in,

48:43

and his victims were brunettes.

48:46

He was very very clear. and

48:50

I remember how challenging

48:53

it was for me to get

48:55

out of the house. And

48:58

my mother was just like, not only

49:00

was she scared, but I was scared.

49:03

I mean, I was scared. Sun

49:05

of Sam was on the hunt in New

49:07

York City in very specific neighborhoods

49:10

looking for young brunette women.

49:12

It was as simple as that. And

49:14

so there was such

49:16

a fear, you know, and you how

49:19

you again, it's all about awareness, situational

49:22

awareness, making sure

49:25

that you are, you know, keeping

49:27

yourself as safe as possible. But again,

49:29

when you see these serial killers out there,

49:32

and you see an acceleration in their

49:34

killing and they're going after people, we

49:36

really do feel like

49:38

we can be the victims that

49:40

is what is so different from, you know,

49:43

random crimes that really upset people

49:45

versus what you said is like a confrontational crime.

49:48

Have them between people who knew them they weren't

49:50

ever they're not gonna hurt me because I

49:52

don't even know these people. I wasn't having an

49:54

affair with that one. Yeah.

49:55

Yeah.

49:57

Yeah. It's that that that kind of fear.

49:59

Yeah.

49:59

And I asked another thing III

50:02

do remember talking about students' term is

50:04

a concern

50:04

about missing, how many people are missing.

50:07

I don't know if that comes about from listening

50:09

to so many podcasts.

50:10

I found that different this term

50:12

it might just been a few of the women I was talking to

50:14

in class. Well, I think that there's much more

50:17

awareness now on that,

50:19

there's like about a half a million people

50:21

a year disappear. They just go missing

50:23

in the United States. That's an extraordinary amount

50:25

of people. I may be slightly off on

50:27

my number, but I'm pretty close. It's

50:29

extraordinary. And so, you

50:32

know, all of you who are interested

50:34

in missing people, we recently had on

50:37

adventures with purpose. This is the volunteer

50:39

dive team that goes around bodies

50:42

of water. They've been able to solve

50:44

so many crimes with their sonar equipment.

50:46

They basically find cars that

50:49

you know, went into a body of water. No one

50:51

knew that that's what happened to them. Some

50:53

of them were victims of crime. Some of them

50:55

literally was an accident and someone's mother

50:57

disappeared. So I think there is

50:59

much more awareness about this. So

51:03

Professor Dr. Davies, it's been such

51:05

a pleasure having you. I mean, I felt like I

51:07

wanted to share with

51:08

you all of my crime stories from

51:10

all of my career.

51:13

I really enjoyed talking to you. This is it's

51:15

it's it's it's interesting

51:18

what we're interested in. I have

51:20

a colleague who's a

51:20

musician teaches

51:23

Cello And she's always like, what are you talking

51:25

about now? But I think those of us who are interested

51:27

in this, it it there

51:29

is something there that really attracts our

51:31

attention and We

51:34

we

51:34

do think about these cases and it it

51:36

is something

51:39

that is

51:41

is just a curiosity for us. Mhmm.

51:44

So your book, where can we find your book? Is

51:46

it is it like a regular book? Or is it a textbook?

51:48

I sound like a child. That's a

51:50

question. It's a it's a textbook

51:52

but I think it reads of course,

51:55

I'm gonna say that it reads very smoothly. I

51:57

hit my students enjoy

51:59

reading it, It is available

52:01

on Amazon. It's not

52:02

over over the top price textbook.

52:05

It's not it's but

52:07

it it kind of starts with how

52:09

do we study crime all the way to

52:11

investigation and courts is kind of an overview.

52:14

And it's like how I talk so

52:16

the students seem to really enjoy it. Terrific.

52:19

And if people want to follow you, are you

52:21

on social media or can they find you

52:23

through the university?

52:24

They can definitely find me through Augusta University,

52:27

but I'm also on Twitter at

52:28

Kim Davies, PhD, and

52:31

Dave Davies, his DAVIES

52:33

i'm

52:34

probably less stuff to do with crime, but

52:36

I'm also on Instagram at doctor DB706

52:39

Okay. Perfect. I'm like you. It's like there's

52:41

a limit to how much crime I can talk about on social

52:44

media. You can follow me at Anna Gene News,

52:46

Anna with one n. You can find

52:48

all the episodes of all of our podcasts

52:50

wherever you get your podcast, subscribe

52:52

to our True Crime Daily

52:55

YouTube channel. Also sign up

52:57

to receive our newsletter

52:57

at truecrimedaily dot calm until next

52:59

week. I'm your host, Anna Garcia, and as we always say,

53:02

don't do crime.