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Syria is carving a new path forward after the overthrow of Bashar al-Assad. While the country’s future remains uncertain, Mehdi Hasan and Owen Jones have a brutally honest and outspoken conversation in London about how the Western Left has reacted to the fall of the Assad regime.

“Yes, Israel may benefit from the fall of Assad,” Mehdiargues, “And yes, the United States did want Assad to fall and spent millions of dollars. But so did Syrian people. And we shouldn’t strip them of their agency and their desires.”

Owen adds, “It is important that we, on the Left, keep our house in order, and we have a universal, emancipatory project which is about freeing people from all forms of oppression, violence, wherever that comes from. You know, the United States of America, they pick and choose. It’s what they did with Saddam Hussein for a long time … It’s Orwellian.”

The two also unpack the double standards when it comes to Syria and Palestine. “On the pro-Palestine side, you have some people who are pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel … But then when it comes to Syria, they're pro-Assad, which I find inconsistent morally and politically,” Mehdi says, pointing out that Western powers do the reverse — backing an al-Qaeda offshoot in Syria, Hayat Tahrir al-Sham (HTS), while obsessing over Hamas in Gaza.

As Syria begins to rebuild after Assad, Owenemphasizes the importance of anti-imperialism: “We need an anti imperialism, which is also about consistent liberation and not dictatorship, because the point with Assad is he used that rhetoric for legitimacy rather than actually practical help for the Palestinians.”

Watch the full show above to hear Mehdi and Owen get into this lively, impassioned, and timely discussion, including on Israel’s seizure of Syrian land — they don’t hold back! And for those of you who are paid subscribers, join the conversation in the comments. We love to hear what you think of this episode of ‘Two Outspoken.’