0:03

That's a terrible idea. Yeah,

0:08

three, so

0:10

I could look cool. Yeah,

0:12

we could highlight the steel beam

0:14

and that brick above the stobium could

0:16

be interesting. That's me and my lovely

0:19

husband Nick. The two of us recently

0:21

started gutting and renovating the entire

0:23

first floor of our house, and honestly,

0:26

it's going okay.

0:29

More openness can get right, Like, we get

0:31

another eighteen inches out of it, and I'm

0:34

not here to complain. I truly have a pet

0:36

peeve about people who complain about

0:39

their house renovations. I feel like it's

0:41

almost the equivalent of yelling at a waiter because

0:43

he brought you cava instead of prosecco.

0:46

Just be grateful and drink the fucking cava.

0:51

Yeah, pack the whole thing white

0:54

over it and look interesting. All

1:00

this is a problem of privilege. Sure,

1:02

the noise and the chaos has disrupted

1:05

where my family sleeps, and frankly, my

1:07

producer is mostly annoyed because

1:09

it's been disrupting me recording this podcast.

1:12

But it's fine. We figured it out. And

1:14

aside from the fact that my kids are so covered

1:16

in dust, but I send them to school every

1:19

day looking like pig pen from Charlie Brown.

1:22

I'm feeling really good about the whole process. And

1:27

here's the thing. I don't think I could have

1:29

done this renovation without design

1:31

Instagram. I truly believe

1:34

the design and renovation Instagram

1:36

is one of the most useful things

1:39

about social media, and I fucking

1:41

love it. I'm

1:46

gonna do all the finishing stuff and make

1:48

it actually feel homey in here is honestly

1:51

a personal dream country for me to have a paint

1:53

kitchen for an everyway, and I learned

1:55

how to expose a brick wall. We built

1:58

this closet from a Kia packs

2:00

word Drobes, and I wanted

2:02

to end shop the doors right here.

2:07

Honestly, you can learn how to renovate and

2:09

decorate anything on the Instagram.

2:12

I found nearly all of my fixtures, my

2:14

cabinet colors, I found

2:16

all of that on Instagram.

2:19

It was the equivalent of having every good

2:21

design magazine for the past ten years

2:24

all in one place.

2:27

Some of the accounts that I followed were huge

2:29

design and remodeling influencers,

2:31

but also a lot of them were really small,

2:34

and a big chunk of them were actually women

2:36

contractors, carpenters, and woodworkers,

2:39

And I just love that those ladies are flipping the

2:41

script on who builds and mix houses.

2:44

So for me, design Instagram is one

2:46

little corner of this often dark, dark

2:48

place that is completely wonderful,

2:54

but nothing's perfect. Earlier

2:57

this year, the design influencer world was

3:00

rocked by scandal, a

3:02

scandal that reverberated all the way to the

3:04

top and involved shady contractors,

3:07

beloved figures, television

3:09

deals, and people gaining thousands

3:11

of followers while losing thousands

3:14

of dollars. But

3:16

as I dug into this story, I couldn't

3:18

help but wonder was it actually

3:20

a scam or was this whole thing just

3:23

a symptom of a larger issue in influencer

3:25

and internet culture, the fact that everyone

3:28

is hustling so hard and so fast

3:31

that things fall through the cracks and nothing

3:34

feels sustainable. I'm

3:37

Joe Piazza and your Under

3:39

the Influence, Episode

3:48

eight. Through the Hustle, all

3:58

right, So, for those of you who are not addicted

4:00

to h G t V and the Magnolia Network

4:03

like I am, what we're about to talk

4:05

about next might get a little bit confusing.

4:08

So in the vein of a great Russian

4:10

novel, I'm going to lay out this cast

4:12

of characters for you at the very start of

4:14

the episode. Yeah,

4:17

I'm essentially told Stoy motherfucker. Now.

4:20

Back on January eighth, Chip and Joanna

4:23

Gaines launched they're much anticipated

4:25

Magnolia streaming TV network

4:29

Magnolia. If

4:31

you're not familiar Chip in Joanna.

4:34

The gains Is are pretty much the biggest

4:36

home renovation stars in the world.

4:40

They're huge, massive influencers

4:43

on social media, television through

4:45

their books, and they have multiple lines

4:48

in target. They started

4:50

out on h G TV, and you

4:52

know, as everyone is getting into streaming, they

4:54

decided to launch their own television network.

4:57

When they did that, they needed new talent for their

5:00

cos. They tapped this couple

5:02

named Andy and Candice Meredith. We're

5:06

Andy and Candice Meredith. We've

5:11

been married for the

5:13

two of them had briefly had their own h g TV

5:15

show, but they mostly built

5:17

their big following on social media while

5:20

they were renovating a twenty thousand square

5:22

foot house in Utah. We want to take

5:24

you on this whole journey start to finish. We're gonna be remodeling

5:28

school house. Most people think

5:30

we're crazy. We've purchased

5:33

they're full on old house. Renovation

5:35

influencers, which is a

5:37

thing now.

5:40

I might not be doing a good enough job explaining

5:42

this, so I decided to bring on someone

5:44

who could. I called the reporter Michelle

5:46

Knstantinovski, who wrote about this for Glamour

5:48

magazine. The

5:51

headline was for Andy

5:54

and Cannas Meredith a show on the Magnolia

5:56

Network was a dream come true until

5:59

it wasn't. I wanted to have you on to

6:01

just give us a quick rundown what happened

6:04

for people that that don't know who Andy

6:06

and Candice Meredith are. They

6:08

had a show on h G t V,

6:10

which is kind of like the pinnacle of home renovation,

6:13

you know outlets UM called

6:15

Old Home Love, and then they had a Facebook

6:17

show, and then they partnered with the

6:19

bucket List Family, which I also had no idea

6:21

about, what's the very influential

6:24

Instagram family, and

6:27

um, you know, they had I think what was

6:29

a casual relationship with Chip and Joanna

6:32

Gaines. So Joanna

6:34

slid into Candice's d M s and I think they had

6:36

kind of a casual relationship up until that point.

6:38

But Joanna really approached her through

6:40

a d M and was like, we are creating

6:43

a spinoff network called Magnolia,

6:45

and we think you know, you and your husband would

6:47

be perfect um for

6:49

our network. The show was called Homework and so

6:51

Um. Candice and Andy's whole stick was that they

6:53

renovated like very old historic homes

6:56

and in addition to you know, the vignettes

6:58

of them renovating their own home, they would help

7:01

homeowners on their own budgets

7:04

renovate their homes. And that was kind of

7:06

the whole premise for the show. And they had

7:08

a mass of following before the Chip

7:10

and Joanna you know relationships,

7:13

So it's not to say that they connected

7:15

with this power couple and all of a sudden they were thrust

7:17

into this. They definitely earned the cred,

7:20

but this was next level. Then

7:23

the issue started. The

7:25

show was not going according to plan, and

7:28

the homeowners who trusted Andy and candas

7:30

Meredith to renovate their homes felt like

7:32

they had been taken advantage of, even

7:34

scammed, and they started talking

7:36

about it publicly on Instagram.

7:40

Candice said she didn't feel she had the staff

7:42

she needed and that contractors and clients

7:44

were being difficult to work with. She

7:46

also told us we would almost certainly have to

7:48

raise our budget to a hundred thousand dollars.

7:51

It's hard to articulate how vulnerable that

7:53

place was. To feel like I was being

7:55

held captive in my own unearthed

7:58

home while screaming in shouting

8:00

for anyone to hear me, but being

8:02

ignored. We

8:05

really really wanted to just resolve

8:07

it peacefully, but we tried so

8:09

hard to do that and feel at this point we've

8:12

exhausted all options. The

8:15

first of these complaints came from a woman named

8:18

Aubrey Benyon. She's a

8:20

Utah based project manager and entrepreneur.

8:24

What she's alleging is like pretty significant.

8:28

It was just a kitchen remodel. It

8:30

should have costs of her own

8:32

money. Again, this was not like Magnolia potting

8:34

the bill. This was you know, they were paid for it,

8:36

and she says it wound up taking five months

8:39

at almost double the cost. Aubrey

8:41

kind of led the pack, but at the same time she

8:44

had found through her own investigating

8:46

and other people who were I think they were

8:49

I want to say they were nine families or

8:51

nine groups who were involved in the making

8:53

of this show. They kind of

8:55

somehow found each other um and we're like,

8:57

hey, I'm going through this thing. I heard you might be too

9:00

kind of joined forces, and so other

9:03

people took to Instagram and did the same thing.

9:05

Um did these Instagram threads detailing

9:08

the horror show that was taking place,

9:10

or as they alleged. One of the families

9:13

claimed that the couple asked them for five

9:15

thousand dollars for their renovation

9:17

project, which was forty dollars

9:20

over their original budget, and then after

9:22

getting them up their budget, they

9:24

never finished the work. Another

9:27

woman claimed that the Merediths had charged

9:29

her forty dollars, also

9:31

over her budget by about fifteen grand, and

9:34

then said that they left her with way more problems

9:36

in her house than she'd started with in the first place.

9:39

And again, all of this was being

9:41

aired on the Instagram,

9:44

that same platform that had turned Andy

9:46

and Candice Meredith into a brand

9:48

in the first place, the same

9:50

platform where Joanna Gaines, Queen

9:53

of Home Renovation, slid

9:55

into Candice's d m s and first

9:57

talked to her about having a TV show. Yes,

10:01

that thing. That place was

10:04

where they were being torn down, Live

10:08

by the Sword, Die by the Sword,

10:10

Live by the followers, Die

10:13

by the followers. The

10:16

story was about that these feuding

10:19

parties took to the same

10:21

platform to try to like lay

10:23

out the facts, and the facts were pretty

10:25

much up for debate depending on who you were talking

10:27

to. The story was forwarded

10:30

to me so many times with

10:32

glee. Yeah, well glee

10:35

by people I think that I didn't

10:37

even know who the Merediths were, but

10:40

who were just kind of delighted to

10:42

see someone that had been Instagram

10:45

famous taken down totally.

10:48

We wield very little power as like

10:50

everyday people, but now that influence

10:53

or power celebrity is kind of democratized

10:56

in this way where it's like almost anyone can

10:58

be an influencer. There's

11:00

like a joyfulness that comes from

11:02

like, oh, now we can take that person down using

11:04

the same means that they used to elevate themselves

11:07

above us little people. You know. But

11:11

Canadas didn't deny any of this happened.

11:14

Candice does obviously feel remorse.

11:17

She posted a fifteen minute apology

11:19

video and Instagram. She tried to explain

11:21

everything and defend herself. You

11:24

know, basically, nine client projects in the

11:26

span of like, you know, three

11:28

months, it was supposed to like it was just it

11:31

was it was too much and

11:34

I can't say that even though the communication,

11:37

each homeowner felt for themselves felt

11:40

like it wasn't enough. We

11:42

never slept, we you

11:44

know, we were constantly trying to

11:51

What she was really taking issue with was like

11:53

the the venom that was

11:55

being brought like in their

11:57

direction. She said when I spoke with her that,

12:00

you know, her her

12:02

child was saying that he

12:04

was having suicidal thoughts and tendencies

12:06

and they were being bullied, and um,

12:09

it was intense and it was hard

12:11

to hear that we have been

12:13

scared to share our side because

12:16

one we're not trying to take away from their experience, and

12:18

too, the

12:20

threats that were receiving in the comments of

12:22

people accusing us of being frauds

12:24

or theft thieves. It's just been a

12:27

little bit over not a little bit, a lot overwhelming,

12:30

and it has taken us a little

12:32

bit of time to share. So felt.

12:36

And on the other side, I'm hearing that these

12:38

people need to take Like the word of the day

12:40

with this was accountability. That these

12:43

people took on a project and

12:45

just because they couldn't deliver, we're supposed to feel sorry

12:47

for them. It's like, no, they have to take accountability.

12:50

And I think that word

12:53

gets used a lot in these kinds of public

12:55

feuds always almost

12:57

always Yeah, And I think

12:59

that there so much to say here

13:02

about hustle culture. Two

13:05

and how Yeah, if

13:07

you get this break and you want

13:10

to grow your brand, you are

13:12

going to have to do some things that are pretty shady. Let's

13:15

talk about Elizabeth Holmes, right, I

13:17

mean, I mean, come

13:19

on, so, I mean, I

13:21

just don't think this is anything new.

13:24

And I think that Instagram culture and the

13:26

drive for people

13:29

to be a brand these days

13:31

on social media platforms and

13:33

TV and just more

13:37

even than being a business, you have to be a brand.

13:40

I think it's exhausting and people cut corners.

13:44

I think that's true of home renovation too.

13:47

Is like there's a promise that this

13:49

could change your life, this could be the thing, and

13:51

then the person who's delivering

13:53

that has the pressure to do it fast,

13:56

and do it well and do it perfect because

13:58

everything is documented. I

14:00

think we're all so hardwired to be like this person

14:02

is a winner, this person is a loser, this is the villain,

14:05

this is the good guy, and it's like that's

14:07

just not how any of this played out, and

14:09

it's not realistic, Like there

14:11

people are hurt on all sides of this,

14:14

but there is a power dynamic, and I think

14:16

that's where people like

14:18

to see the more powerful person get taken

14:20

down, and that was Andy and Candice.

14:23

They had more followers, they were more

14:25

powerful. I

14:28

don't know how this is going to escalate as the thing

14:31

is, like, you know, how long has social media have been around

14:33

now and we're at this point now,

14:35

what is it going to be in ten years or twenty years?

14:38

Like this would have been a disgruntled

14:40

comment on Yelp, Like that's what this

14:42

would have been. Or this would have been like a niche

14:44

message board that like five people

14:46

would have read. That's what this would have been. But

14:49

instead it became headline news. Because

14:52

that's the world we live in now, is that it

14:54

just snowballed and it picked up so

14:57

much attention. But even ten years ago this

14:59

wouldn't have been pa stable. There

15:01

is a definite kind of schaden freud when

15:03

someone in the public eye who seems like they have

15:05

all of their ship together is taken

15:08

down a notch. But we're

15:10

the Merediths really scammers?

15:13

Really? Or were they victims of

15:15

something that a lot of us, especially

15:18

a lot of people in the creative industry,

15:20

have fallen prey to hustle

15:23

culture, the modern

15:25

hustle, something that is largely

15:28

borne out of growing your brand and burnishing

15:30

your brand on social media. And this

15:32

big idea right here is kind

15:34

of the trojan horse in this design

15:36

influencer episode because it's

15:38

such a classic form of influencer

15:41

content that it is the perfect

15:43

example of how things can get out

15:45

of hand. You can trace it all the

15:47

way back to the beginning of design

15:49

influencing and see how the world

15:51

has blown up and mutated and

15:53

transformed and become something that

15:55

the early design bloggers hardly

15:57

even recognize. After

16:00

the break, we're going to talk to someone who went through this entire

16:03

mind boggling journey and now she just

16:05

wants to find a way to put good ship into the world

16:07

without traving herself crazy scandal

16:19

or no scandal. People whose jobs

16:21

are tied to social media, who feel

16:23

the pressure to keep up with this crazy

16:25

hamster wheel, they feel

16:28

like they're under a lot of pressure, pressure

16:30

to stay savvy, to look perfect, to be relevant,

16:32

to grow and grow and grow. For some

16:35

people, it's starting to seem like it's not so

16:37

worth it. It's really just become

16:39

this, uh, this

16:41

this survival. In a lot of ways,

16:43

just this war of attrition

16:45

to see who can you can keep

16:48

getting the eyeballs. And and you

16:50

know, with influencing, or I should say

16:52

with content creation, it's traffic and

16:54

engagement. Those are the two things you're constantly

16:56

going after, um and different

16:58

posts gardner, different traffic

17:01

or engagement, and they're not always the same thing.

17:04

And so it's just every day

17:06

it's been just this wild, wild

17:09

West. That

17:12

is the voice of someone that I have admired for

17:14

a very, very long time.

17:17

She goes by a lot of titles interior

17:20

designer, design guru, design

17:22

blogger, design influencer, and

17:24

also the leader of a multimedia

17:26

company. She's also a New York

17:28

Times best selling author, and her

17:30

new book, The New Design Rules,

17:33

comes out next month. This is the

17:35

one and the only Emily

17:37

Henderson. Emily's design

17:40

content has been my go to for

17:42

years, and she's found a way to make her job

17:44

and what she does sustainable and

17:47

bring real value into the world. So

17:49

when I wanted to talk about what it takes for a brand

17:52

in the modern digital age to keep

17:54

on keeping on, Emily

17:56

was one of the people that I really wanted

17:59

to chat with. She's been in the space

18:01

for so long, which means She's innovated

18:03

about a hundred times, and she

18:05

has hustled her ass off over the years. You

18:08

can almost sense a restlessness while we're talking

18:10

to her. Even during our conversation, she couldn't

18:12

sit still, was always moving around like she

18:14

was going to launch a new project right then

18:16

and there. You might even hear that rustling

18:19

a little bit while she talks. But let's

18:21

back up. I want to take you to the beginning of

18:23

my conversation with her, where I fan

18:25

girl out just a little, Emily

18:28

Henderson. I

18:30

could not have renovated my house if

18:32

it weren't for you. All I want to hear

18:34

in the world that makes me feel very

18:36

good. Thank you. Your account

18:38

just made me feel like I wasn't alone and

18:41

and it's also just from a design

18:43

standpoint, beautiful and makes me so happy.

18:45

So I wanted to get on and just say thank you for

18:48

creating it and for being you.

18:50

Thank you. It's been you know, it's

18:53

been a long time, Joe. It's been twelve

18:55

years of doing this, so it's

18:58

it's truly what drives it all still

19:00

is like is just hoping

19:03

to inform, inspire, educate,

19:06

and empower people to

19:09

love their home and not feel like idiots

19:11

when they're decorating it and then be proud of it

19:13

and anyway, so that makes me feel very good.

19:16

Well, I do want to back up, because twelve years is a

19:18

long time on the internet. It's

19:20

a it's a really, it's like it's essentially a lifetime.

19:22

Really, you know. I don't want to say Grandma, but

19:24

I sometimes I feel like

19:27

I got it. I got it. Emily

19:30

started her career as a prop stylist in New

19:32

York for magazines. Then she moved

19:34

to l A with her husband, Brian, who was an

19:36

actor. Right after

19:38

they moved, the writers strike happened and

19:41

no one was working, and that was kind

19:43

of miserable, you know. It was

19:45

drinking too much wine, was pre depressed. Brian,

19:47

my husband was an actor. The industry

19:50

shut down, and so I was just watching a lot

19:52

of h G t V. I I

19:54

was I was bored, you know. So I started

19:57

this blog and at the same

19:59

time, I auditioned for Design Star. She

20:02

got on and one Design

20:04

Star, which made her the shining example

20:06

of where these kinds of blogs could go, that

20:08

they could be stepping stones to a larger

20:11

media brand. Design

20:13

Star fed the blog and then Emily

20:15

could dedicate all their time to creating

20:17

style and design, content design.

20:21

Blogging is it's

20:24

different than influencing because it's a lot of it's

20:26

it's all content creation. And what

20:28

I mean by that is like we are mostly behind

20:31

the scenes mood boarding, shopping,

20:34

just doing a lot of a lot of labor to

20:36

pull together rooms because the content we create

20:38

it's a room, it's not it's not a recipe,

20:41

it's not a outfit. Not to say

20:43

that is also very hard work on, to be very

20:45

clear, but pulling together

20:47

and decorating a room, it's just physically

20:50

takes a lot more time and a

20:52

lot more money, a lot more resources. I can't

20:54

move a couse by myself, so it's it's

20:57

just it becomes like the whole content

20:59

creation thing becomes

21:01

of what we do. I'm only been

21:03

working on our blog for about three years. When

21:05

she got her first big partnership with target

21:07

in that was when

21:09

she really started to grow. I

21:11

mean it was incredible, like it would really enabled

21:14

me to hire an assistant and

21:17

just start prioritizing the blog

21:19

over. I think I was still doing design plans at the

21:21

time. I was working out of my

21:24

basement. I think I like I had one

21:26

person, then two, then three and four.

21:29

Um, then it was time to stop

21:31

working out of our basement. Um. So I think

21:33

in we got an office space

21:36

and things are feeling pretty good, like I was getting

21:38

a lot of partnerships, and then

21:40

with my second child,

21:43

like I mean, I just felt like I was

21:45

drowning all the time, and

21:48

um, I did not know how to how

21:51

to keep up with it emotionally and physically financially.

21:54

So I made

21:57

the choice to grow more. Even

22:00

she was drowning in the crazy days

22:02

of early motherhood, I'm only stuck

22:04

with it. She kept going. She had a family

22:06

to support, and so she just kept pushing herself

22:09

harder and harder to keep getting

22:11

bigger and bigger online. I've

22:15

never actually written about this, so

22:17

it was it was so unsustainable

22:20

emotionally that I basically

22:23

I found myself consistently like

22:25

just crying about how I had no time

22:27

to enjoy my own life. And I was like, I have all

22:29

these things, but I have no time

22:32

to enjoy it. It was just really sad. God,

22:34

what kind of crying? Um. Anyway, so I

22:36

had to make that choice. I was like, what do I do?

22:39

Do I keep keep growing? Do

22:41

I keep adding people to help

22:43

make this feel better, or do I,

22:45

you know, kind of shift back

22:47

and scale back and kind of

22:49

have a simpler, different life. Um,

22:52

and maybe I will be able to have time

22:54

to enjoy my kids while

22:56

they're young. Um. So

22:59

that's what That's what I did. I

23:02

could so relate to everything that Emily

23:04

was saying. It has

23:06

long, long been ingrained in American

23:08

culture to grow and grow and grow

23:11

at all costs, at any

23:13

cost to your sanity, your well being,

23:15

your family, your family sanity and

23:18

well being. That culture is

23:20

nothing new, but frankly,

23:22

in the digital age, it just all feels

23:24

faster and faster than ever before.

23:27

Quick example of that, every time

23:29

Facebook or Instagram changed the algorithm.

23:31

While I was working at Yahoo Travel, we completely

23:35

changed our content strategy

23:38

on a dime because that's how

23:40

important the traffic was to our website. It's

23:42

fucked up. It's too much control,

23:45

and it can make or break a content creator's

23:47

business. They just keep changing

23:50

the algorithm over and over again

23:52

with no notice.

23:58

It's crazy making and it hasn't stopped.

24:01

Instagram started telling you, based on

24:03

your behaviors, what

24:05

content you should see, and

24:08

then it became a chase for

24:10

those likes and for those eyeballs, and

24:13

um, which is you know, it can be

24:15

exciting to play, to play

24:17

that game, but it's a really long game.

24:19

Guys. It's like in every

24:22

year they change the algorithm and

24:24

so you think you figured it out, and then

24:26

every year they add another product too. If you

24:28

don't play their game and don't create content

24:31

with that product, so the product could be you

24:33

know, I G live real stories,

24:36

then you do get unseen.

24:39

That part has always been it's

24:43

really stressful, hard to figure out. And I'm

24:45

not alone. I mean it's every content creator,

24:47

every brand in the world is trying

24:49

to, you know, figure out how to play this game. Um,

24:52

so it's really just become this, uh,

24:55

this just survival in

24:57

a lot of ways, just this war

24:59

of a trish and to see who can who

25:01

can keep getting the eyeballs.

25:03

And when you feel like a

25:06

social media platform is really

25:08

controlling the game,

25:10

then it's it becomes it's just

25:12

hard, and it comes becomes very challenging to want

25:14

to keep playing. Now, Emily

25:17

had a decision to make, and her

25:19

choice was to slow down and

25:21

savor sanity. I'm only

25:23

writing about one did too posts a week

25:26

and we have a lot of contributors. So

25:28

we've really shifted to being a publishing

25:30

platform and so we have kind

25:33

of this cast of characters. Um,

25:35

I'm not quite sure how many people right now are contributing,

25:37

but like, let's say ten or twelve people that

25:40

consistently contribute and

25:42

what they are bringing, like different budgets,

25:45

different styles, different voices,

25:48

different types of spaces

25:50

like some are small space, some you know, different

25:52

cities. It has become

25:54

just more of this like family of

25:57

bloggers on this publishing

25:59

platform that as a lot of built in

26:01

traffic. I think it's working.

26:03

We still have to iterate and innovate, but currently

26:06

it feels good and um, I'm

26:08

really proud of what we've done. I mean,

26:10

I live in Oregon now, like we bought a farm, Like

26:13

these were specific choices to get

26:16

out little try to get off

26:18

the hamster wheel and get

26:20

out of the city, to slow down a

26:22

little bit. It's amazing

26:25

to me that you've been doing this twelve years. I

26:27

feel like you're at the top of your game. You

26:29

have one of my favorite sites, and

26:31

you feel like a grandma. I'm in this existential

26:35

no crisis because I think I'm on the other side of it

26:37

where it's like, I have thirty years left

26:39

of potentially like creating, creating

26:41

content or building my career,

26:44

and so it's just it's very much

26:46

a what's that going to look like? Emily? What

26:48

what is that going to be? How are

26:50

you going to use them in the most meaningful, fulfilling,

26:54

purposeful ways. All the things that you care about

26:56

all of a sudden when you're thirty five forty

26:58

that you didn't really care about when you're twenty five, of like meaning,

27:01

purpose, value, like what what

27:03

are we doing here? Um? And it's kind

27:05

of exciting to get to the point where you're just like, I don't

27:07

I don't need to be the most popular and

27:10

to do the memes any anymore.

27:12

I just want to educate

27:14

and inspire and inform and add

27:17

value to the world. If

27:19

someone as successful and savvy

27:21

as Emily Henderson is exhausted

27:24

by this constant hustle, then

27:26

what hope is there for the rest of us. One

27:31

of the things that struck me the most while talking

27:33

to Emily is our passion for the written word,

27:35

for the old school, traditional

27:38

nuts and bolts of digital content. The

27:41

blog. The best thing

27:44

I've ever done is never

27:46

given up on blogging because

27:48

it's always been there. So when everything

27:51

else feels like, you know, you're

27:53

just playing this this

27:55

this Hunger Games war

27:57

of attrition, trying to stay alive and social

28:00

media, the blog has always been there, so

28:02

I kept blogging about the show, and then it

28:04

started just steamrolling into

28:07

this business that kind

28:10

of blew up in a really good way.

28:12

I love that you say that because we talk about it

28:14

a lot, right where like everything could

28:17

go proof, all of the social media platforms.

28:19

But if you have the blog and you have the

28:22

words, and you've created a multimedia

28:24

brand and that

28:26

still lives no matter what happens

28:29

to the social media, all of those words

28:31

are still there. Yeah, because

28:34

social media is so volatile, and you know, during

28:36

the pandemic at the very beginning, all

28:39

contracts were canceled and it

28:41

was terrifying for a lot of people that

28:44

you know, do what we do. But the

28:46

blog, because we have ads,

28:49

like, the blog kept us not

28:51

only a flow, it was thriving. It's

28:53

way more stable. Emily is not

28:55

alone and going back to the basics, back

28:58

to blogging, back to a place where

29:00

you have actual ownership and control

29:02

of your content, a place that is

29:05

not Instagram. After the break,

29:07

we're going back to the blog blogging.

29:15

The search for stability online has brought us

29:17

all the way back to the beginning circular

29:20

composition. I learned about that in ap

29:22

English in high school. The

29:25

blogging medium is coming back, which I

29:27

think is something that is a really

29:29

positive change, because I think a

29:31

lot of people miss that

29:33

magazine style of influencer

29:36

where they don't have to catch

29:39

everyone's story every single day.

29:42

That's BuzzFeed reporter Stephanie McNeil.

29:45

She is one of the few journalists

29:47

covering the business of influencers seriously,

29:50

and she too, is seeing a return to

29:52

long form storytelling and blogging. I've

29:56

been talking to influencers for a while before

29:58

that who are just worried about time their

30:00

business is too much on Instagram, because there's

30:02

been this complaint for a really long time that not

30:05

only does Instagram, you know, change the algorithm

30:07

and they feel like they have to do different types of content

30:10

to appeal to the powers that

30:12

be on Instagram, but also that there was not enough

30:14

institutional support for them as creators

30:16

that they could, if they had an issue,

30:18

have a dedicated line where they could just shoot

30:20

an email and someone would respawned right away. I think

30:22

a lot of people didn't realize what were they were doing until

30:25

it was too late, and they're kind of taking

30:27

stock and looking back and being like, wow,

30:31

now, all of a sudden, instead of working for myself,

30:33

I'm working for Instagram and I'm not getting anything

30:35

for it. Another frustrating part

30:37

of this that we've mentioned is that Instagram's

30:40

constant algorithm switches are always

30:42

putting creators out of their element. Old

30:45

school influencers who started out writing

30:47

and taking pictures are now being asked

30:49

to learn entirely new skills. The

30:51

algorithm wants them to shoot video and do silly

30:54

dances. They want them to do anything to catch

30:56

people's attention or anything they think will

30:58

bring AD dollars into the social media of company's

31:00

pockets. And

31:03

I think the other thing is people just were tired

31:05

of playing the game. I think the reels

31:07

push that Instagram has been doing over

31:10

the past six months or so, where they're

31:13

clearly pushing reels, and

31:16

so if you're someone who you

31:19

know, you're trying to not let

31:21

your business on Instagram die, and then

31:23

you're seeing all these people who just post reels every

31:26

single day getting thousands and thousands of

31:28

followers that can really make you take a

31:30

step back and be like, wait, what

31:33

is happening here? Is this platform for

31:35

me? Like? How can I build my business back on my

31:37

own terms? You know? And

31:39

a lot of influencers have told me this, like where

31:41

would Instagram be without an Instagram

31:43

influencer? Where

31:47

would Instagram be without influencers? Where

31:50

would Instagram be without the people who follow

31:53

influencers? And those are

31:55

the questions that I am dying for

31:57

this platform to think more about. And it

32:00

is the main reason that we keep talking and talking

32:02

and talking about doing a woman's day

32:04

off the Internet, just to show these

32:06

companies exactly how much content

32:09

women are creating for them in a day.

32:11

The revenues of companies like Instagram

32:13

and Facebook and I know they're all one company

32:16

mena comes from the labor

32:18

of these women, and they can't continue

32:20

to ignore them. It's not right

32:23

and frankly, it is creating a worse Internet

32:25

for everyone. But

32:27

how can we create a better Internet

32:30

for everyone? The

32:32

Meritith scandal that we talked about at the top

32:34

of this episode is just one example

32:37

of how often people can get in over

32:39

their heads in the world of influencing.

32:42

The Meretiths were good at what they did. They

32:44

knew how to renovate houses, they knew

32:46

how to post those renovations on social

32:49

media. But as they grew faster

32:51

and faster, they got in over their heads

32:53

because but they probably didn't know was

32:55

how to renovate houses quickly and cheaply

32:58

for a television production company. Kay,

33:00

And that's where things fell apart. They

33:03

fell prey to the hustle. As

33:06

Emily Henderson said, the hustle to keep

33:08

up with maintaining and growing a brand

33:11

can nearly burn you out. It

33:13

did burn her out, actually, until she

33:15

found a way to step back, slow

33:18

down and say no to some things.

33:21

We all need to get a little better at saying no. That's

33:24

stepping away from the hustle. And

33:26

that is one of the reasons we're creating the Women's Day

33:29

Off the Internet. I posed the question

33:31

to Emily. I asked her if she was into the Women's Day

33:33

Off, just to figure out if I'm nuts

33:35

or not. I love that. What day is

33:37

that? Yeah, Well, we're we're figuring. We're

33:40

figuring out the day right now, so I will keep you updated on

33:42

that day from listening to the podcast. I do appreciate

33:44

that like it does seem it like it.

33:47

We're at the mercy

33:49

of the social media algorithm

33:52

gods. And when I say

33:54

that, it's like a Hunger Games war

33:57

of attrition and survival. It's

33:59

where the rule will change every every year

34:01

and the weapon all of a sudden doesn't work

34:04

anymore, and you're just like, okay, okay,

34:06

all right, so now we have to do this to stay alive. Okay,

34:08

okay, And it's all

34:10

fine and good, but like at a certain points, he's

34:13

like, to what end? To

34:15

what end? Exactly exactly.

34:17

I think brands are all doing

34:19

the best they can, and some of them are doing such

34:22

really interesting work on social media. I think

34:25

content creators are all doing the best they

34:27

can, but so many of us are

34:29

just at the mercy of the social media companies,

34:31

who I don't think give enough

34:34

of a ship about the consumer,

34:36

the audience, and also the

34:39

creators and the brands. I don't think

34:41

that there is enough care in that world,

34:43

and I would like there to be more care. And

34:45

I think that that is the whole point of the Women's Day

34:47

off the Internet. The

34:56

Woman's day off is coming, and

34:58

I promise you'll know, and I know but

35:01

while we wait, we still have a lot

35:04

more to cover. Thankfully,

35:06

what we're discovering through our reporting is that there

35:08

are actually a lot of other people out

35:10

there who have the same goal as we do

35:13

to make the Internet a better and

35:15

more equitable place for all people,

35:17

but really for women. And these people are

35:19

going about it in a totally different

35:22

way than I am. I mean, I'm just spouting off

35:24

my mouth all the time. These people are founding companies

35:27

to try to fix the problem. So next

35:29

week, in our final episode of this season,

35:31

I'm sorry, it's the last episode of this season,

35:34

we're talking about the brave new world of influencing

35:36

that is going to happen on Web three point

35:38

oh. I know that Web three point

35:40

oh sounds like the matrix take the

35:42

red Pill, but it's totally a

35:44

real thing, and we are inching closer and

35:46

closer to it, and frankly, all of

35:49

us need to get a grasp on it because

35:51

a lot of people think it might just be the thing to

35:53

save online content creation, and

35:55

that, as we've seen, is

35:57

not going anywhere. I

36:00

want the word influencer to not

36:03

be a dirty word. How

36:06

do we build a pathway out

36:08

of this lock in on single

36:10

platforms for creators and influencers

36:12

that really own and control their lives.

36:15

We also kind of think about this as democratizing

36:17

influence, like influence is a good thing. Word

36:20

off mouth has served us for thousands of years

36:22

as humans, It's just never been properly

36:24

productized. Under

36:34

the Influence is hosted and reported by me Joe

36:37

Pianza. Our senior producer

36:39

is Emily Maronoff. Glennys McNicol

36:41

is our editor. A booz Afar is

36:43

our producer. We got additional production

36:45

help from Aaron Peterson, and our associate

36:47

producer is Lauren Philip. Sound

36:50

design and mixing from Jackie Huntington's.

36:53

Our theme was composed by Jessica Crunchich,

36:55

additional music by Jessica Crunchich and

36:57

Jackie Huntington's. Anna Stump

37:00

is our consulting producer, and we are executive

37:02

produced by Me Joe

37:05

and Nikki Toor