It is hard to dispute that the apprenticeships model, which combines employment with formal training in a trade, is an effective way of developing skills while still earning a wage. So why do apprenticeship numbers appear to be so dire? To find out, Steve Davis talks to NCVER Managing Director, Simon Walker and National Australian Apprenticeships Association Chief Executive Officer, Ben Bardon, who reveal that the situation is more nuanced than recent media headlines might suggest. They start by discussing the difference between apprenticeships and traineeships, which can skew the perceived decline.