0:04

To believe that Bitcoin will stop

0:06

changing, I think, is a fallacy

0:08

and it means that Bitcoin will

0:10

die because Bitcoin is software and

0:12

software never stops to evolve. Hello

0:15

there, happy Monday, hope you're doing well, hope you

0:18

have a good weekend. Just

0:20

thinking about our next driving trips actually. I'm

0:22

going to be heading out to New York

0:24

on May the 20th for two days and

0:27

then going to be heading to Austin for

0:29

about 10 days. Going to be out there for Consensus

0:31

and then going to be heading straight to Norway for

0:34

the Oslo Freedom Forum. I hope you can see

0:36

some of you crazy Bitcoiners there. Anyway,

0:38

welcome to the What Bitcoin Did podcast, which was

0:40

brought to you by the massive legends of Iran,

0:42

formerly known as IRIS Energy. IREN

0:44

is using their next generation data centers

0:46

to power the future of Bitcoin mining

0:48

and AI using 100% renewable energy. IREN

0:52

remains the same business with the same goals,

0:54

now just with a different name. I'm

0:56

your host Peter McCormack and today I've got an

0:58

absolute banger for you. This is

1:01

the final session for Cheat Code in Bedford,

1:03

our conference. This time we

1:05

have a panel with American Hodor, Alex Thorn

1:07

and Callie hosted by our boy Danny. This

1:10

one is called Nobody understands Bitcoin. In

1:13

this panel, they get into what Bitcoin is, why

1:16

it's so hard to have a holistic

1:18

view of Bitcoin, the risks of centralization

1:20

and the likelihood of ossification. And

1:23

that is a fireside chat I hosted

1:25

with the legend Jack Mallers, where

1:27

we discuss funding devs striking Europe and scaling

1:29

Bitcoin. I know you're going to love this.

1:31

If you've got any questions about this or

1:33

anything else, hit me up as hello at

1:35

whatbittcoindid.com. All

1:41

right, it's all downhill from here.

1:44

So I am joined with

1:46

two belligerent drunks and the

1:49

orange GG. We're

1:51

going to be getting into Nobody understands Bitcoin, which

1:53

was an article written by Jamison Lop in 2017.

1:56

If you've not read it, I strongly recommend it.

1:58

It's a brilliant article. So

2:00

to keep things off huddle, do you understand

2:02

Bitcoin? No Expand

2:06

it's obvious. I Need

2:10

more from you than that No,

2:12

nobody understands Bitcoin and I think throughout my

2:15

years here. I've been I said

2:17

this in my keynote this morning I've been directionally

2:19

correct on Bitcoin luckily But

2:21

I've been wrong about all sorts of things in Bitcoin. If you were to

2:23

talk to me in 2014

2:25

I would have given you a bunch of you know Stuff

2:28

about from Andreas Antonopoulos videos that were

2:30

about You know Bitcoin

2:32

taking down visa, bro And we're gonna

2:34

be like master card times a billion

2:36

You know and things that don't sound

2:39

that reasonable or intelligent to say today And

2:42

there's a million examples of that throughout my

2:44

time I even once this is

2:46

embarrassing to admit but I'll admit it. I once

2:48

ran Bitcoin XT And

2:51

I and I posted a caption that

2:53

said on the right side of history You

2:55

should explain this because we've got a lot of new

2:57

people in here So explain big some big clinics to

2:59

well at the time Bitcoin XE was you know backed

3:01

by Brian Armstrong It was during the box. I swore

3:04

it had this idea that it was gonna be you

3:06

know Dine it we're gonna have dynamic block sizes and

3:08

like let the free market set the block size and

3:10

you know I was pretty new bish in 2015 or

3:13

16 when the software released and I thought I

3:15

was like oh, yeah Of course free market all

3:17

the things bro. That makes total sense to me

3:20

That was a there was a really naive

3:22

and stupid opinion I look back on that

3:24

opinion now, and I'm just like yeah What was I what was

3:26

I thinking you know and there's a million yeah?

3:28

There's my whole career in Bitcoin has been me

3:31

looking back basically saying to myself What

3:34

the hell was I thinking that that's not accurate at

3:36

all to how Bitcoin works or

3:38

functions It is like

3:41

an organism in a lot of ways But

3:43

it's also that's also a completely insane thing

3:45

I just said so this is what happens

3:47

is people make these mental models Like

3:49

saying it's an organism or there

3:51

was one somebody said the blockchain is a

3:54

city No, it's not but if that helps

3:56

you wrap your head around what is happening. You

3:58

know all power to you and there's a whole

4:00

bunch of these, right? You got

4:03

the, and part of the reason we

4:05

have so many analogies and creative ways

4:08

of describing what it is is because it's

4:11

really hard to really grasp

4:13

what it is, and then

4:15

debate about what it should be. I tell

4:17

you, I talk to a lot of institutional investors, one of the things

4:19

they wanna know is how do we value it? It's

4:23

like, oh, it has no cash flows. And

4:25

I'm like, yeah, well, it's not a company, so.

4:29

I mean, don't be surprised, they're like giving me

4:31

these features of an asset that

4:34

they see. They're like, it looks kind of like a

4:37

gold, but like it's more, you know, I'm like,

4:39

yeah, it looks kind of like that. It does,

4:41

but it's not that. And

4:44

I tell them, I'm like, don't, they're like, it's just so hard

4:46

for us to wrap our heads around

4:48

how we should think

4:50

about it. I'm like, that's okay, it's

4:52

15 years old. Like, it's, you don't

4:54

have to know. I don't think people

4:56

had complex, you know, evaluation

4:58

models for gold in like, you know,

5:00

the year 2000 BCE, right? It's

5:02

just, it is. And so, look,

5:05

whatever you gotta do to wrap your mind

5:07

around it. But I

5:09

would also say keep an open mind because to Hovil's

5:11

point, like, that changes. Well,

5:15

I know what it is not. It's

5:17

not digital energy. It's not

5:19

digital real estate. It's

5:21

not all of these weird, you

5:24

know, examples or stories that

5:26

we make up. I think

5:28

it's not even only money, which is weird,

5:30

because I mean, we've been seeing that in

5:33

the last year or so with all the

5:35

Orno's craze. And there's a lot, you know,

5:37

there's the most fundamental debate that we can

5:39

have is, is Bitcoin money only or is

5:41

it also data storage? Is it

5:44

only software? Is it cultural?

5:47

Is it, you know, historical?

5:49

Is it economical? There

5:51

are so many angles from which you can

5:53

try to understand this thing. I think it

5:56

feels like the only thing that is for

5:58

sure is that it's an evolution. evolving thing

6:00

that changes all the time. No

6:03

one at any point, not even

6:05

Satoshi, I mean all

6:07

the mistakes that Satoshi made in the beginning

6:09

also point towards, you know, the

6:12

guy who put the most, the

6:14

people who put the most energy

6:16

into thinking this thing up didn't

6:18

know, you know, most basic fundamental

6:20

errors in the white paper such

6:22

as taking the longest chain instead

6:24

of the heaviest chain, right? It's

6:26

something that, you know, if

6:28

you would have review and people look at it,

6:30

they would probably point it out very early and

6:32

say like this is flawed, like this would kill

6:34

Bitcoin, you cannot just take the longest chain. I

6:36

can make up blocks as fast as

6:38

I want and then take over the

6:40

entire chain. So even the creator of

6:43

Bitcoin didn't really understand all parts of

6:45

it. And after over the years,

6:47

we figured that we can do so many more

6:49

things with Bitcoin that we didn't think

6:52

were possible. One of these things is to put

6:55

cat pictures and dick pots

6:57

onto the most, you know,

6:59

valuable digital monument in human

7:02

history. Innovation. But

7:04

here we are. We're going to get into that,

7:06

but you kind of touched on a topic that's

7:08

very, I guess, hotly

7:11

debated right now, which is ossification. Will

7:14

Bitcoin always change? To

7:17

believe that Bitcoin will stop changing, I think, is

7:19

a fallacy and it means that Bitcoin will die

7:23

because one thing that I

7:25

can also be almost sure to say

7:27

is Bitcoin is software and software never

7:29

stops to evolve because the underlying hardware

7:32

which we run software on also changes.

7:34

There's not only

7:36

the only reason, but this is a, you know,

7:38

this is a, this is

7:40

a reason alone to be changing

7:43

Bitcoin all the time. Now, when we

7:45

say Bitcoin changes, we can mean two

7:47

different things, which is one, the software implementation,

7:50

making sure that everything just runs, you know,

7:52

it's a, it's an engine that needs to

7:55

be kept maintained and oiled. The other thing

7:57

is, uh, consensus changes.

8:00

changing the rules of Bitcoin itself. And

8:02

there, even if we think that we

8:04

have it, I can

8:06

assure you, you know, even if we said

8:08

let's ossify Bitcoin, let's not change it anymore

8:10

because it's perfect money, which is it, which

8:12

it isn't, nothing is perfect. Even

8:14

in that case, the moment someone

8:16

finds a security vulnerability with the system,

8:19

and it's almost theoretically assured that there

8:21

is still a security vulnerability in there,

8:24

then within a couple days or minutes, we will

8:26

have consensus for the next change. So things, even

8:29

our strongest convictions, can change very, very fast.

8:32

So Alex, do you think the ossification

8:34

argument is basically just like finance bros

8:36

versus devs? It's

8:39

so interesting because you hear it from

8:41

people who do understand Bitcoin technology sometimes,

8:43

but yes, you also hear it a

8:45

lot from investor types.

8:49

And I think in that sense, they don't

8:52

really know what they mean, to Kelly's point,

8:54

like an open source project

8:56

always needs maintenance at a minimum, right?

8:58

And but some

9:00

investors may say, I mean, we can, they

9:03

say Bitcoin is digital gold, but it should only

9:06

be digital gold, right? It's a normative

9:08

qualitative statement. It's not an, it's

9:11

not analysis, right? Because we can prove

9:13

that, well, it literally hasn't ever only

9:15

been digital gold. It's always been plenty

9:17

of other interesting things. I mean, people

9:19

were putting NFTs on Bitcoin in 2013,

9:21

right? Like it's people, it's an open

9:24

system. So

9:26

you do hear it. And I think some of that

9:28

is because it's, well, like I said, it's a lot

9:30

easier. You need these, everyone, we

9:32

use these all day, heuristics, these mental

9:34

shortcuts to help us understand the world,

9:36

right? And one of the ones

9:39

that's the easiest and most prominent that people say

9:41

is that Bitcoin is digital gold. Well,

9:43

a lot of people have known about and use gold

9:45

for thousands of years. So now you tell me there's

9:47

a digital version, like, it feels like you

9:49

just, you know, took a shortcut

9:52

to understanding what it is. But

9:54

that isn't all that it is. It Isn't

9:56

Ever. it's never only been that, and

9:58

it almost certainly won't. The only be

10:00

reading have a decent analogy com and

10:03

so I think it from the investment

10:05

sides people the if you start telling

10:07

them it's like all these other possibilities

10:09

are it's too complex system the could

10:11

be one way or another if like

10:13

the payroll it will remain an Id.

10:15

Oh that's so I think there's a

10:18

simplicity to something like the idea that

10:20

it it already is Digital Gold Is

10:22

has succeeded. On voted spin

10:24

ist. With. Ossify. I think

10:26

that is appealing because the digital Gold

10:28

narrative is so effective in appealing, but

10:31

I won't have to start saying that's

10:33

wealth, Digital gold and of a platform

10:35

for really are to roll up like

10:37

settlement friend vegans. What. I

10:40

mean I'd I think it's really the conversations

10:42

about premature ossification because I think everybody knows

10:44

and believes that big when must asked by

10:46

at some point in the future. or at

10:49

least that's a strong sense that many of

10:51

us have, but we don't know when that

10:53

point is and a lot of the upgrades

10:55

along the path are potentially poison pills were

10:57

you know you could actually harm back when

10:59

significantly And so that means that every upgrade

11:02

that we get has to be vetted with

11:04

extreme scrutiny. And to Alice's point, I think

11:06

a lot of these premature asked the case

11:08

and especially coming out. Of. The

11:11

camps of people who have lot large amounts

11:13

of money now suddenly invested in the the

11:15

thing is it reeks to me of us

11:17

your reaction and I don't think it's these

11:19

are people who have a strong ah that

11:21

they just don't have a strong basis for

11:23

some of his maybe the things that they

11:25

believe about back whenever six world view on

11:28

bitcoin and not a dynamic an evolving world

11:30

the which is what you need to have

11:32

an order to go the distance with that

11:34

one. So are are

11:36

probably want to leave I guess because thing bind

11:38

their book just before we do an auto said

11:40

that he thinks everyone agrees last vacation is in

11:43

of split some point. Do agree with that Kelly.

11:47

I think Bitcoin boudreau to a point

11:49

where it will ossify where the realize

11:51

it or not at some sense because

11:54

it's gonna be very very hard to

11:56

push the changed into Bitcoin because we

11:58

need to school board consensus. That and

12:00

I believe as I said before

12:02

the go because that's the way

12:04

to get global consensus once you're

12:06

in suits more and more people

12:09

which is kind of the goal

12:11

of Bitcoin is a gonna slow

12:13

things down a we already see

12:15

that as changes in Bitcoin and

12:17

twenty thirteen twelve eleven when Satoshi

12:19

found about it was six and

12:21

a couple days and everyone's us

12:23

like hey guys update your software

12:25

and was done and don't Times

12:27

are over for sure So I

12:29

think. Bitcoin will ossify whether we liked

12:32

it or not, which also feels like

12:34

a third race against time. You know,

12:36

some some changes in Bitcoin still feel

12:38

necessary to me. One of the things

12:41

that I would like to see for

12:43

example is better privacy in bitcoins and

12:45

else would require a. Hard

12:48

for us or soft forks and

12:50

now as as as the user

12:52

base of Bitcoin growth and us

12:54

more more important interests are imported

12:56

into the Bitcoin system especially from

12:58

a large financial institutions for my

13:00

to feed off stamp. still care

13:02

about privacy Like why would I

13:04

support privacy? It's the perfect as

13:06

the perfect assets it just devalued

13:08

grows all the time. The one

13:10

thing that people don't understand i

13:12

things especially who started putting in

13:14

a lot of money into Bitcoin

13:16

later is that the reason. Why we

13:18

got there is because we made a useful

13:20

it did Snow is your twenty one million

13:23

of something that is useless. I'm not sure

13:25

if people would redo value had So the

13:27

reason why we're here where we are is

13:29

because a lot of work has gone into

13:31

making sure I can actually pay with it.

13:33

I can use it, you know, I can

13:36

safely secure it and so and so forth

13:38

with oh, if anything else needed some changes

13:40

along the way. I

13:43

have died or this panel is to

13:45

try and triggers many viewers possible sale

13:47

or with a hopefully normally tear on

13:49

triggered an several games like or and

13:51

She Coins on Bitcoin by and as

13:53

we sat with collie. He

13:56

went on any cash solution concussion

13:58

as a cashier. Yes. E-cash

14:02

was invented as a

14:04

shitcoin because it was

14:06

invented for fiat and

14:09

you have a couple of E-cash

14:11

projects today out there who literally

14:13

just market themselves as a shitcoin.

14:15

It's called Cashew Nuts token or

14:17

something which value will decrease

14:19

over time. So this could exist but

14:22

the way, joke aside, the way we're

14:24

building it today is purely to

14:26

make Bitcoin applications better. So we're

14:29

representing Bitcoin amounts with E-cash

14:32

and obviously that doesn't fall into the shitcoin realm

14:34

because no one needs to think, you know, the

14:36

value doesn't increase and so on and so forth.

14:39

So jokingly yes but today

14:41

not anymore I would say. Okay, Callie says

14:43

E-cash is a shitcoin. So

14:47

I want to get into ordinals and I don't even

14:49

know where to start. I'm kind of in some ways

14:51

sick of the conversation but I feel like it's relevant

14:53

to this panel. So

14:56

I reckon, Hodder, let's start with you and go down

14:58

the line and what's your take on ordinals?

15:01

And by that I mean like ordinals,

15:03

inscriptions, BRC20, like blanket term. Yeah,

15:05

I mean I think ordinals are a behavior

15:09

in Bitcoin that are fully

15:11

within consensus and if

15:14

you don't like them you kind of have to break consensus

15:16

in order to get rid of them which is to

15:19

me a scary proposition as somebody

15:21

who's been through periods where

15:23

consensus was less fixed and

15:26

so I get reluctant, even though I don't

15:28

personally like love ordinals myself and don't participate

15:30

in that market, I get

15:32

reluctant when people start talking

15:35

about sort of extreme measures to

15:37

counter what is effectively only

15:40

a perceived problem. You know, maybe it

15:42

grows to become a real problem and

15:44

I could see instances where it's a

15:46

regulatory attack surface but at a

15:48

technical, you know, level in my opinion it's

15:50

not an issue to that. Yeah,

15:54

I think I honestly have a serious take, a

15:56

similar take as Hodder

15:58

here which is, honestly I'm mostly

16:00

ambivalent, I would say. Again, I

16:03

do believe that Bitcoin has, it is

16:07

and has the potential to be

16:09

the world's best and soundest and

16:12

credibly neutral money. And if

16:15

anything threatens its chances

16:17

of being that, then I would be opposed

16:19

to it. I don't think today

16:21

this activity does really any damage,

16:23

frankly, to Bitcoin in my opinion. So I

16:25

just don't really care. Oh,

16:28

broadly, I will say I don't believe that

16:30

ordinals exist. There is no such thing as

16:33

ordinal theory. So there are not token like

16:35

individual satoshis. I absolutely do not believe they

16:37

exist. If you want to get it with

16:39

a group of people and say you're going

16:41

to index Bitcoin's UTXO set and look at

16:43

it a certain way, that's fine by me.

16:45

I really don't care. I think

16:48

ordinals are a litmus test for people

16:50

to, you know, to figure out whether

16:52

someone understands what consensus means or not,

16:54

because ordinals, as you said, are fully

16:56

in consensus. And I think theoretically speaking,

16:58

you couldn't even turn them off in

17:01

any way. You would have to cripple

17:03

Bitcoin to a point where it's completely

17:05

useless. You wouldn't be able to do

17:07

multisig, for example, anymore. If you really

17:09

want to get rid of everything that

17:11

you can do, like all the other

17:13

things you can do in Bitcoin, just

17:16

except for paying one person

17:18

from one person to another, you would

17:20

have to turn off almost all of

17:22

its features because somewhere or another someone

17:24

will find a way to put a

17:26

dickbutt into Bitcoin in a multisig,

17:28

in a time lock or something like

17:30

that. So many different ways of doing

17:32

that. So for me, ordinals feels like

17:34

it is, you know, it's a personal

17:36

test to someone whether they can truly

17:38

accept what Bitcoin is, which, you know,

17:40

what Bitcoin is, is truly a

17:43

set of rules that we all

17:45

agreed on when we ran the

17:47

software. And if you don't want to agree

17:49

on these rules, then you run different software. That's the only

17:52

thing that you can do. And that's the only thing that

17:54

you should be able to do. I Would

17:56

just add that, like as a researcher who

17:59

studies this market, I find a

18:01

super interesting. I don't, personally, like I

18:03

said, care very much, but there's a

18:05

pretty big market that's emerged frankly at

18:07

this point, and. When

18:10

we when we we are my team and

18:12

I wrote a report about inscriptions an ordinance

18:14

in February of last year. like less than

18:16

two months after Casey wrote a more launched

18:18

this software org and we were like this

18:20

is gonna be back out on a lot

18:22

of people like to hear that but we're

18:24

like this when. I mean we did some

18:27

work to firm up this but we said

18:29

that the chemo the value of inscriptions him

18:31

As a point we meant only like three

18:33

bags like and of teas. I'm with him

18:35

now we're doing tokens. really stupidly divine token

18:37

scheme of them said the whatever we settle.

18:39

Be worth five billion dollars. That market in

18:42

two years and I think it's basically already

18:44

there, which is wild. So from a pure

18:46

like as an analytical standpoint, I find it

18:48

super interesting. There's a bunch of stuff and

18:50

I would say if they weren't people, they

18:53

have to self esteem these hardware wallets A

18:55

lot of them run node like. That's interesting

18:57

to me. Sort.

18:59

Of do give any credence to the like

19:01

affects the filters argument at home. Not.

19:04

On to make written so it's not something

19:06

I'm interested and or and I don't think

19:08

it's gonna work. I

19:11

agree. I have no chance of working. And

19:14

it has some pretty big negative externalities

19:17

as well. The only way to get

19:19

rid of them as to break bitcoin.

19:22

Or. I'm. So. Each

19:25

yes it was body chess or Sony

19:27

represents media issue a hair salon. So

19:29

as far with you Alex Am do

19:32

eat Yes pose a realistic threat to

19:34

Bitcoin. This is a

19:36

great question and I would say like. A

19:39

possibly measures to clarify where the a partner

19:41

or to invest go south actually invesco. That's

19:43

the as you are where the sub adviser

19:45

but it is called the galaxy Bit corny

19:47

to have one of the eleven now that

19:50

they have a the U S com. Theoretically.

19:54

It it could. I think one of the things

19:56

to. To. Push and and when

19:58

it comes the I personally. If Bitcoin

20:00

gonna be globally adopted as.

20:03

Money. Or as digital gold or and anyway

20:05

like bowl or mean money. There's like infinite

20:07

forms of money right? Like the the dollars

20:10

that I have on my pay pal or

20:12

not the same as the dollars that I

20:14

have in my bag. All of these of

20:16

having dollars and a bank by the way

20:18

is actually a big gonna probably get big

20:20

fat asterisk next to that statement. some been

20:22

on actually hundred dollars in the bank to

20:25

be clear. order your your Euros or your

20:27

pounds. there's there's no money and those banks

20:29

to stuff my eyes. I'm. It's

20:32

everywhere I like. It's. All

20:34

different forms of the same assets

20:36

and in that way I think

20:38

like they want Bitcoin available in

20:40

my bank account, my brokerage account,

20:42

my savings account, my phone, my.

20:45

My. House under my bed. Like

20:47

theoretically. I think we have seen

20:49

forms of bitcoin everywhere, so there's

20:51

an inevitability to it's com. Otherwise,

20:54

I think they're I think in

20:56

many ways are incredibly positive for

20:58

Bitcoin. I think Bitcoin, the bitcoin

21:00

network, and the individual units of

21:02

Btc become more useful when they're

21:05

worth more. in my opinion. I'm

21:07

but. We. Don't want a

21:09

giant pile of and spread max or had

21:11

a great answer to requests on Reddit like

21:13

a thing of upon which seven years ago

21:16

somebody said what's the biggest threat of Bitcoin

21:18

is it like a fifty one percent attacks

21:20

and his answer I'm thinking of course my

21:22

memory but was basically like know, the biggest

21:24

threat to Bitcoin is ignorance and apathy that

21:27

waves of new entrants will come in and

21:29

have no understanding and knowledge of the properties

21:31

that make a point. So valuable rights. It's

21:33

not just that it becomes more valuable in

21:36

an exchange rate with depreciating be currency is

21:38

valuable. Because it's credible, it's neutral, it's

21:40

transparent, it's censorship resistant I like.

21:42

And if you don't know that

21:44

and they may, you know the

21:46

economic majority can basically determine what

21:48

bitcoin is, which version of software

21:50

we want to agree, and if

21:52

so, you have a pile of

21:54

people who don't know and don't

21:56

care. There's always a risk for

21:58

there could be. You know they

22:00

could force through changes or tell the whole

22:03

world. Now that Bitcoin as we know it's

22:05

actually like Bitcoin Classic A now like there's

22:07

a new version of the coin that we

22:10

the so there is a way that risk

22:12

that I would say The Corner succeed

22:14

when they educate rather than keep the Black

22:16

Rock's and Fidelity is out of that conversation

22:19

scampering and in and make sure they understand

22:21

what makes Bitcoin truly useful. Invaluable on and

22:23

so far I've been. I mean I think

22:25

they do. For. Us to

22:28

well swamp and their mission to help

22:30

millions of people get into Bitcoin. And

22:32

then build the fastest and easiest way to get

22:34

that started. It takes just a matter of minutes

22:37

to sign up and stop buying bitcoin with the

22:39

Swan app. For. Introducing friends or

22:41

family to Bitcoin has never been easier.

22:43

A swarm now has zero fees on

22:46

the first ten thousand dollars a Bitcoin

22:48

buys so it is free to get

22:50

started. Know mori if you are already

22:52

a clients. Can. Next ten thousand

22:54

dollars buys also free if you

22:56

love to recommend Bitcoin. And

22:59

I know you, This one is an

23:01

absolute no brainer. You can take a

23:03

friend from Zero to Bitcoin in just

23:05

one quick conversation to tell them to

23:07

search for swarm bitcoin in the app

23:09

store. He really takes no time and

23:11

is completely free for them to get

23:13

started. Again, says has swung Bitcoin which

23:15

is as a W A N B

23:17

I T C R I N to

23:19

download the app. Okay, Let's

23:22

talk about costs us. Less. Talk

23:24

about cold storage Now listen that the bitcoin

23:26

price has been booming this last year and

23:28

I know some of you will see your

23:30

net wealth and Bitcoin trying up and you

23:33

may not considered Forty Six store and she

23:35

my not considered Tolstoy penis. Get on to

23:37

this. I have been using costs of about

23:39

four years now. Absolutely love it so a

23:42

lot more comfortable. Know what Bitcoin is locked

23:44

up in a multi sig solution? He tosses

23:46

a very Best Buy or for the same

23:49

of something else they have brought a product

23:51

of the markets that changes everything. Something I.

23:53

needed something up in bored by for a

23:55

long time with his inheritance and a some

23:57

of you plan your inheritance which bitcoin by

24:00

creating some kind of puzzle or sharing keys with

24:02

other people but Kasser have

24:04

nailed it. They have built this natively

24:06

into their app so you can handle

24:08

custody and you can handle inheritance directly

24:11

in the app ensuring there's

24:13

no mistakes, ensuring that the people you love will

24:16

inherit your bitcoins just something happened to you. All

24:18

you have to do is choose a recipient

24:20

and when you snuff it when you're gone

24:22

the person you put in charge waits six

24:24

months and they take control of your bitcoin.

24:26

Kasser also provides you with a helping hand

24:28

to make sure what your bitcoin stays safe,

24:30

curious in this transition. So if you

24:32

want to find out more if you've

24:35

realized it is time to get yourself a

24:37

good cold storage solution please do go and

24:39

check out kasser at kasser.io which

24:42

is casa.i-o. All

24:45

right let's talk about Ledger, my

24:47

favorite hardware wallet in the world, the people

24:49

I've been using since 2017. Now Ledger is

24:52

a world leader in bitcoin security and

24:54

is one of the best ways for you to own

24:56

and secure your private keys. Now listen, if

24:58

you are still holding your bitcoin on an exchange

25:00

with a custodian what are you doing? I've been

25:03

telling you for years to stop doing this. It

25:05

is time to take your security more

25:08

seriously. Remember if it's not your keys

25:10

it ain't your bitcoin. Now with

25:12

Ledger hardware wallets paired with the Ledger

25:14

live app you have the easiest way

25:16

to start managing your own private keys

25:18

and taking control of your bitcoin and

25:20

with the price booming you don't want

25:22

to be leaving that on an exchange. We've seen what happens with

25:24

exchanges right? Now you can

25:26

send and sign bitcoin transactions with full

25:28

transparency in the Ledger live app and

25:31

honestly it can be easier I've told you.

25:33

A million times I'm still using the same

25:36

wallet I bought back in 2017 I've still

25:38

got that same Ledger Nano

25:40

F. Also Ledger has recently

25:42

released their bitcoin orange nanos

25:45

and they've got a very cool initiative going

25:47

with it. They are given five dollars from

25:49

every purchase to the bitcoin developer community and

25:51

they're starting out with Brink which

25:53

I love to see. So if you want to find

25:55

out more if you want to get yourself a hardware

25:58

wallet please head over to Ledger that is shop.ledger.com dot

26:00

com which is

26:03

shop.l-edger.com.

26:07

So do you see the biggest threat from ETS then

26:09

as like the sort of social attack on Bitcoin? As

26:13

in the influence within the Bitcoin space becomes

26:15

too large? Sorry, say that

26:17

again. That's a little harder here. Do you

26:19

think the biggest threat to Bitcoin through the

26:21

ETS is from the influence of the ETS

26:23

will have over? Yeah, it could be. Yeah.

26:26

There is a, they could influence, they could

26:28

buy their own developers from their own development,

26:31

they could favor versions of Bitcoin that have,

26:33

I mean literally they could favor forks of

26:35

Bitcoin over the existing consensus,

26:37

right? When you massively expand

26:39

the pool of Bitcoiners, you

26:42

know, they've got, we've got to continue

26:44

to pass down this oral tradition of

26:47

why Bitcoin is important, right?

26:50

They, it's not obvious

26:52

like we said. Nobody understands it anyway. And

26:56

so again, it's about bringing

26:58

them into the fold. I mean, I've been

27:00

hard, I felt good about, I mean, I

27:02

know the teams that a lot of these

27:04

places including ours and Investo's and Fidelity, I

27:06

crocs, like they do, I

27:09

think understand a lot about what makes

27:11

Bitcoin valuable and they, rather than

27:13

keep them out, we should deputize them so they

27:15

can carry the message forth to these millions of

27:17

new users or I should say investors because they

27:19

don't actually, you don't actually use Bitcoin if you

27:21

own the ETF, but that's, that's a different. I

27:25

respectfully disagree there because I cannot

27:28

imagine any future in which we ask BlackRock

27:30

what to do with Bitcoin next. And

27:33

you know, some of you might remember what happened in 2017, 18, when,

27:35

when we had the soft

27:38

fork war and Coinbase,

27:41

who was the largest custodian then

27:43

and still is the largest custodian

27:45

today had a really important voice

27:48

in that conversation, right? And

27:50

Coinbase's interest was only for

27:52

Coinbase's interest. See, it's fine

27:54

if everyone just thinks about themselves, then

27:56

Bitcoin still works. That's kind of how

27:59

it became supportive. but the

28:01

interests of a large group of people,

28:04

individuals, can be very different from that

28:06

of a financial institution. I agree we've

28:08

proven that. We

28:10

should stay vigilant. So I'm not sure if

28:12

that can be fixed or not. It's just

28:15

the way it is right now. Most of

28:17

the ETFs park their money at Coinbase and

28:19

this is just a central piece of, you

28:21

know, control that can be

28:23

exerted onto Bitcoin. I was wondering,

28:25

like, since we're going down the triggering path, what

28:28

would happen if the if the plebs would

28:30

decide to fork out BlackRock, for

28:33

example? Like, I mean,

28:35

theoretically speaking, obviously you cannot take away

28:37

anyone's Bitcoin, but if you fork them

28:39

out, you can do that. So there

28:41

is a theoretical possibility that BlackRock could

28:43

lose all of its access to all

28:45

of its Bitcoin if enough people decided

28:47

that. And so is that illegal? Is

28:49

that bad? I don't know. It would

28:53

follow consensus and that's the only rule

28:55

that we have in Bitcoin, right? So

28:57

I'm not so sure that we can

28:59

be buddies with the ETFs because

29:01

I don't think that they are interested in the

29:03

same thing that most people are. We should

29:05

like let's dig into that a little bit more.

29:07

So when you say we fork out BlackRock, are

29:10

you thinking if there was, let's say, a privacy

29:12

proposal for Bitcoin that Bitcoin is wanted but BlackRock

29:14

did not, that they would have to run a

29:16

different set code? Well, there would be

29:18

a classic fork, right? And we would have two

29:21

Bitcoins. What I mean is kind of like we

29:23

could, you know, this is just theory. I don't

29:25

say that anyone should do that or could do

29:27

that, but what you could do is just freeze

29:29

all the assets basically. We all together could

29:31

decide to freeze BlackRock's assets. Isn't that

29:33

fucking crazy? I think that is. And

29:35

you know, we should think, we should

29:37

know that we have this power because

29:40

one day we will need to know that

29:42

we have this power. It will come again

29:44

and we will, you know, we had the

29:46

UASF and we won the soft fork wars

29:48

because of that, because we knew we have

29:50

the power. It wasn't the economic majority who

29:53

decided what it coin is today, it was

29:55

the plebs who decided what Bitcoin is today.

29:57

And I think we must keep that and

29:59

get it going. going to get harder and harder

30:01

as these players become bigger and bigger. Hoddle,

30:04

do you have anything to add on the ETF stuff? I

30:07

just think that anywhere Bitcoin begins to

30:09

centralize, it should

30:12

be watched very closely. And so

30:14

I think constant vigilance with the

30:16

ETF providers. And

30:19

the thing I'm worried about is central

30:21

banks acting in conjunction with Wall Street

30:24

to hoover up a mass amount of

30:26

Bitcoin, way more than the ETFs can get their

30:28

hands on. And I think that's probably the next

30:30

step after where we are here today. So

30:34

on the centralization side, there's a few

30:36

kind of key areas, I guess, where

30:39

Bitcoin can potentially centralize, miners being one,

30:41

development being another, and there's

30:43

others. Is there any major

30:45

area that you have any concern in? In

30:48

terms of Bitcoin centralizing? Yeah,

30:51

I think mining is a worry

30:53

because we have now a significant

30:55

amount of hash power within the

30:57

US. There is a growing

30:59

sort of regulatory call within the US

31:01

to do clean block mining, OFAC compliant

31:03

mining, et cetera. And

31:06

that is, mining is one of the most significant choke points

31:08

that we have in Bitcoin. And so

31:10

I think the decentralization of mining

31:13

is essentially paramount. And

31:15

personally, I would like to see miners as

31:18

spread out across the world as they possibly could be. And

31:21

I think that the optimistic case there is that energy

31:24

competition will drive them to other locations.

31:26

And anytime they get too much regulatory

31:28

pressure, the miners can just leave the

31:30

shores. I mean, we saw this happen

31:33

in 2021 where China did a crackdown on

31:35

mining and all the miners flew to North

31:37

America, basically, overnight. And so we can see

31:39

that time and again. But

31:42

again, it's worrisome and you got to keep an eye

31:44

on what's going on with these choke points we have

31:46

in Bitcoin. Just conscious that we're

31:48

getting low on time. Alex, do you have any last

31:50

thoughts? Well, I

31:52

mean, I just wanted to say that it's

31:55

been amazing being in Bedford. We

31:58

were out hard in Bedford last night. beast

32:00

mode. Now we're

32:02

at the corn exchange. It's full

32:04

blown cheat code. England's

32:07

pretty weird, I would say. I

32:10

have trouble charging my phone. I can't

32:12

drive on these roads. See me on

32:14

stage dripping wet with these flows. Again,

32:17

last night at the auction house, we were popping

32:19

bottles. Did you guys catch Pete driving his Lambo

32:21

at full throttle? No

32:24

plan B, no plan G. Forget about your

32:26

model. You gotta live your best life like

32:28

American Hoddle. Actually,

32:31

you might have to pivot, no divots. Find

32:33

your balance like ballet. See me spending

32:35

coins with no ID cuz I'm private

32:37

like Callo. And if

32:39

you're hating on the team, no my mates

32:41

will always bash you. We're cracking skulls like

32:43

a nut. That's why my people call me

32:45

Cashew. Yeah,

32:49

you see me on the timeline fighting Twitter

32:51

trolls. Wait, did I miss a whole part

32:54

about Danny? Oh

32:59

no, I've got to hear it. Catch me on

33:01

the timeline fighting Twitter trolls. When I

33:03

rap, I'm slick off the dome like

33:05

Danny moles. So

33:09

hand me bowls, plates and spoons,

33:11

but no Bitcoin hard forks. Because

33:13

we're rolling super deep with

33:15

all my real Bedford dorks. Let's go. You

33:18

knew there was gonna be a rap. Let's go.

33:20

Thank you everyone. It's

33:26

always a full house when Jack Mallers is

33:28

at a conference. I love this guy. Jack,

33:31

how are you? I love you too,

33:33

Pete. Congratulations. I'm good, man. Thank you for

33:35

having me. Thank you for coming.

33:37

Hometown hero. One more time for Peter. Shut up.

33:46

All right, let's get spicy. I

33:48

love Michael Taylor and I love Matt Odell. Should

33:50

we talk about ossification, Jack? Should

33:53

we ossify? Should we fund Devs? Yes.

34:02

I don't

34:04

know, it's a tough topic because I think

34:07

there's just a big

34:09

misunderstanding potentially in, I

34:12

don't know, I saw a screen grab

34:14

of the other Jack, my buddy Dorsey, of

34:16

him ragging on someone for not understanding how

34:18

Bitcoin works, which may come off as offensive,

34:21

but I do think that there's maybe a

34:23

bit of a misunderstanding of floss

34:25

development in Bitcoin and how protocol

34:28

changes get adopted, but Bitcoin,

34:31

at least for as long as

34:33

I've been involved, has always had

34:35

a healthy open source community. And

34:38

if we kill it and we cannibalize

34:40

it, it'd be the first time ever

34:42

in Bitcoin's history that we would try and run a

34:44

$1 trillion open source

34:47

project going on $10 trillion, going

34:49

on $100 trillion without any developers.

34:53

Sounds a little risky and nonsensical

34:55

to me. But

34:58

I do understand when I scroll

35:00

through Twitter why some people

35:02

would maybe be hesitant, why a

35:04

BlackRock getting involved in funding someone sounds

35:07

potentially scary, but I think it's a

35:09

big misunderstanding. I don't know if there's

35:11

any direction you want to take this in, but

35:15

I think it's unequivocal, yes, we have to fund

35:17

devs. So

35:20

what is the misunderstanding? Because obviously Michael Saylor

35:22

has been a force in Bitcoin, but he's

35:24

also somebody who holds a lot of Bitcoin.

35:27

And I'm assuming the more than Bitcoin you

35:29

hold, the more scary changes get. I've

35:32

seen arguments for usification, arguments against it.

35:34

I'm against it. But what do people,

35:36

what are they misunderstanding? So

35:43

first of all, anyone

35:46

can add any change to the

35:48

Bitcoin code that they want. The

35:51

Bitcoin code lives on the internet. All of you

35:53

can go to it. You could download it. You

35:55

could change a character. And you

35:58

would have quote unquote changed Bitcoin. Now,

36:00

if you would have literally changed the protocol

36:03

while doing that, Bitcoin would have been dead.

36:06

We wouldn't be here, right? Someone would have broke it the day after

36:08

Satoshi launched it. The way protocol

36:10

changes get adopted is if all of

36:13

us run

36:15

the code that

36:17

was written. Does that make sense? So

36:20

if Vladimir Putin makes a change to Bitcoin,

36:22

if I make a change to Bitcoin, what's

36:24

your name? George. If

36:27

George makes a change to Bitcoin.

36:29

It doesn't actually matter unless

36:31

we run the change. And

36:33

so developers aren't a threat to

36:36

the network. The threat to

36:38

the network is ourselves. If

36:40

we all adopt a change

36:43

that accidentally changes

36:45

the Bitcoin supply from 21 million to

36:47

21,000, that's the threat. And

36:50

so anyone can build whatever they want. And

36:53

it's impossible for us to gate keep

36:55

that. If we want to

36:58

get in the way of BlackRock of funding

37:00

developers, what's going to happen when Putin wants

37:02

to fund developers? You think that guy's going

37:04

to listen to me or Sailor or Dorsey?

37:06

Get the fuck out of here. So

37:09

what we want is we want to encourage

37:11

developers to build whatever they want. That's always

37:14

been the case. Give them

37:16

no strings attached funding because developers

37:18

are the artists of the digital

37:20

world. They are the creators. They're

37:22

the most forward thinkers in the room. They're the

37:24

smartest people in the room. And you want to

37:26

say, here's this open source

37:28

movement. Do what you think is best. Now

37:30

if you build something that's dog shit, none

37:33

of us will run it. You know, this has

37:36

happened many a time before. If you build something

37:38

incredible, we'll all adopt it and Bitcoin will get

37:40

better. Let me tell you guys a quick story

37:42

on that and then I'll be quiet. Here's

37:46

an example of someone building something that's dog

37:48

shit and we didn't run it. Bitcoin

37:54

cash. Here's the thing. We

37:56

all, I mean, Pete, you were there, Danny,

37:58

you were there. We pleaded, Roger. Don't

38:00

do this, don't edit that code. Don't make any

38:02

sense. He did it anyway.

38:04

Despite us getting in the way, having

38:06

private meetings, we just didn't run it, right?

38:09

The Bitcoin network didn't run it. We ran

38:12

different code. That version of

38:14

Bitcoin lives as a different asset, and

38:16

now it's worth zero. So that's an

38:18

example of a malicious developer not being

38:20

a threat to the network. So whether

38:22

it's Larry Fink or Roger Ver, it

38:24

doesn't matter. Now, how

38:27

we got the Lightning network. There was

38:29

an upgrade to Bitcoin called SegWit, segregated

38:32

witness. SegWit,

38:35

this upgrade that happened in 2017, nobody

38:39

knew technically that it was

38:41

possible. This is a part

38:43

of Bitcoin history that nobody remembers. SegWit

38:46

was required for us to get the Lightning

38:49

network, and no one knew how we were

38:51

going to do it. Every computer scientist,

38:53

MIT professor, Harvard-educated

38:55

students couldn't figure

38:57

out how to get it done. Two

39:00

funded open source engineers

39:03

figured it out. It was a stroke

39:05

of brilliance. We all had to check

39:07

the code twice. Like, how the hell did you do

39:09

that? And we went from, are

39:11

we ever going to get the Lightning network? Are

39:14

we ever going to find a new scaling solution

39:16

to Bitcoin to having one? And it was really

39:18

good code, and we all adopted it. But

39:21

it didn't come from any central planning. Like,

39:23

that was a stroke of genius from the

39:25

Bitcoin open source community. And if

39:28

we didn't have it, I don't know where Bitcoin would be. We

39:30

would have never gotten that change. So there

39:32

is no real threat to Bitcoin developers. People

39:34

build whatever they want. If you

39:36

want Bitcoin ossified, never update Bitcoin core.

39:38

You don't have to. There

39:41

are people that are running Bitcoin versions from five years

39:43

ago. They don't ever have to update. So

39:45

I hope that clears things up.

39:48

And I reached out

39:50

to Michael, and I reached out to

39:52

Matt. I mean, this is not about anyone in

39:54

particular. It's just this idea that we cannot. Like,

39:58

Bitcoin is not. an open-source

40:00

project. This needs maintenance. It's

40:03

not about building new features. It's not

40:05

about risking a trillion-dollar asset class and

40:07

potentially ruining it. We

40:09

can never adopt any of the code if we

40:11

don't want to. I think

40:14

it's just a giant

40:16

misunderstanding. So Odell's

40:19

been going pretty hard at Sailor, basically

40:21

suggesting that he's been encouraging ETFs to

40:23

not roll any profits into funding development.

40:26

Do you think that—so in Bitcoin, like Slayer

40:28

Heroes is a thing, right? Roger is a

40:30

perfect example of that. Do you think that

40:33

Sailor is now trying to gatekeep Bitcoin? No.

40:36

Well, I don't know. I don't know

40:39

what happened or if anything happened. From

40:42

my experience with Michael, he wants

40:45

Bitcoin to succeed. I also

40:47

think that all of

40:49

our lives are so centrally planned. We

40:52

live in a world where nation

40:56

states and central banks and government

40:58

tries to take the volatility out

41:01

of our lives. Volatility is

41:03

very natural, right? Entropy is

41:05

natural. I think Bitcoin

41:11

is what a truly free market

41:13

looks like and feels like. The

41:15

fact that people can disagree

41:17

publicly and be hostile with each other

41:19

but want the same outcome is very

41:22

human. And that's

41:24

okay. So no, I think Michael wants Bitcoin

41:26

to succeed. I think Matt wants

41:29

Bitcoin to succeed. I think Bitcoin will succeed. And

41:31

these are grown men that are trying to change

41:33

the world. And I don't know. If

41:36

I were to ask Michael, do you think that open

41:38

source project that you want to be valued at $100

41:40

trillion should have no developers, I think he

41:44

would say that sounds ludicrous, right? So I'm not sure

41:46

that's his opinion either. So I don't

41:48

know. Just drama.

41:51

Yeah. But the thing

41:53

that's pretty important, and I

41:55

messaged you this as something for us to talk

41:57

about, is if all

41:59

of us don't understand these type

42:02

of fundamental things because

42:04

we are the network, all of us.

42:06

Like Bitcoin without humans running it and

42:08

protecting it is just unused software, right?

42:10

Like Bitcoin, the code is just words

42:13

and letters in a particular order that's compiled

42:15

and run on a computer, but we're the

42:17

ones running it. So if we don't understand

42:20

these things and are able to come to

42:22

consensus and have, you know, healthy public discourse,

42:25

now that's dangerous. That's really

42:27

dangerous. And so as Bitcoin gets bigger

42:29

and new entrants come into the network, these

42:31

type of conversations are super important and sometimes

42:34

it's offensive and sometimes

42:36

it's hostile, but that's what's necessary

42:38

unless you want to have unelected central

42:41

planners do that work for you, right?

42:43

Like that's the trade-off. Why

42:46

are you in Europe, Jack?

42:49

Oh, we're launching strike in Europe. I

42:51

think people know that. We

42:59

got Europe.

43:01

Let me check my phone. My employees

43:03

will kill me, but I think it's

43:05

a, we're all testing it.

43:07

There's people, maybe some of you in the crowd

43:09

are buying Bitcoin on strike

43:11

with euros right now, but

43:14

Europe should be about two weeks and

43:16

then the UK, strike UK is right

43:18

after that. So. So

43:26

I'm leading to a question with us. You

43:29

and I first met in Boston,

43:31

MIT. Yeah. In that

43:33

little back room, did an interview and

43:36

you were working on Zap at the time.

43:38

Now you have strike. How many countries? We're

43:41

in over 70 markets. Alright,

43:44

so you're a Bitcoiner

43:46

building a wallet. You're now a Bitcoiner

43:48

building a global company. How does

43:51

that change your perspective on Bitcoin? I

43:55

don't know if it's changed it. It certainly

43:58

enhanced it. I

44:00

don't know, I mean, just like anything else,

44:02

seeing something in real life allows you to value

44:05

it more, experience it more, feel emotions

44:07

that you were running through

44:09

repetitions in your head, right? So I

44:11

think it certainly enhanced it, like my

44:13

time in El Salvador changed my life,

44:15

right? But I think

44:18

it'd be unfair to say that

44:20

I didn't envision nation states adopting

44:22

Bitcoin someday. The fact that you

44:24

and I did have that vision

44:26

was probably a reason we were

44:28

part of that story. But it

44:30

certainly enhances it, it makes it

44:32

real when someone in Ghana downloads

44:35

your software and sends in a customer support ticket

44:38

and tells you why they need your

44:40

shit to get better. So yeah, enhances

44:43

it greatly. All right,

44:45

let's talk about iron, who are our

44:47

next generation of data center business powering

44:50

the future of Bitcoin mining and AI

44:52

using 100% renewable energy. Love these guys.

44:56

Now, Danny and I have been working with

44:58

the founders down in world for quite some

45:00

time over a year now, we've been super

45:02

impressed with their values, especially their commitment to

45:04

local communities and sustainable computing power. And

45:07

we've collaborated with them on everything we've

45:09

made films, we've done podcasts, they even

45:11

sponsor my football team, Ralph

45:13

Bedford, and they're the lead sponsor for our

45:15

conference cheat code. Now, iron

45:18

is the responsible way to power Bitcoin

45:20

mining, AI and beyond. And if you

45:22

want to find out more about them,

45:24

please do head over to iron, which

45:26

is iren.com. Let's talk about big

45:28

casino pioneers in Bitcoin gaming.

45:30

Now they were established in 2013.

45:32

And big casino at

45:34

that point, became the beacon

45:36

of innovation in gaming and happened ever

45:39

since they are trusted by tens of

45:41

thousands worldwide. And big casino offers cutting

45:43

edge security. And of course, they support

45:45

the best money in the world. They

45:48

support Bitcoin. Now

45:50

with big casino, you get lightning fast

45:52

withdrawals VIP experience, and they have

45:54

over 4000 games. But

45:56

they also believe in a fair gaming environment,

45:59

offering no transaction. fees, they

46:01

promote responsible gambling and

46:03

they're apparent players with their live

46:05

RTP feature to identify bullish

46:07

and bearish games. Right if you

46:10

want to find out more and

46:12

join BitCasino please head over to

46:14

bitcasino.io where top notch gaming meets

46:17

unequal service. That is bitcasino.io which

46:19

is bitcasino.io and

46:22

also please remember to gamble responsibly.

46:26

You've been around a long time this what how long has it been

46:28

because you 11 years my

46:30

11th year in Bitcoin. Yeah 11 years your dad

46:33

introduced you to the Bitcoin. Yeah that's

46:35

awesome yeah and

46:38

in that period obviously like there's been a lot

46:40

of changes Bitcoin now is very different to 11

46:42

years ago I've certainly over the

46:44

last year or two started

46:46

to feel like there is a shift

46:48

publicly a shift in media but

46:50

there's also still a group

46:52

that is reticent to accept what's

46:55

happening with the Bitcoin. We called this

46:57

session game over because I kind of feel like we're

46:59

ending those final stages where you're

47:02

starting to look like an idiot if you if you

47:04

still fighting against this. We

47:07

always see you up on CNBC giving

47:10

a good chat Kelly from the from the

47:12

wardrobe for the

47:14

wardrobe. What do you think

47:16

is what do you think it is that

47:18

people are still struggling with we're getting this

47:21

because they keep finding this technology they keep

47:23

fighting our arguments and the networks gets bigger

47:25

and stronger. I'm

47:28

not to be honest with you I don't

47:31

even know if I have the opinion that there

47:33

are real struggles

47:36

with Bitcoin at this point to me

47:38

what you just described is really game

47:40

over for fiat currency. I

47:43

view Bitcoin as the best expression

47:45

of fiat debasement and

47:48

so fiat debasement can be

47:50

best understood and best realized by looking

47:52

at this Bitcoin thing but

47:54

when people struggle with Bitcoin nowadays I think it's

47:56

the same way that you know someone struggles when

47:58

they first start a diet. They

48:00

have a few good days and then they

48:03

eat a cupcake or whatever because change is

48:05

hard and difficult and you have to get

48:07

acclimated with something new. But I

48:10

don't, I think, I'm of the opinion that

48:13

the gig is near up and,

48:16

yeah, I mean the fact that Wall Street adopted

48:18

a Bitcoin ETF to me tells me everything you need to

48:20

know. I mean, your

48:22

buddies, the Winklevi, I mean

48:25

they tried to get that ETF for what, 13 years?

48:28

13 years. Yeah, the daddy think

48:30

comes by and he gets it in six months

48:33

and I don't think that's an accident.

48:35

I think that they know what they're

48:37

doing and it's the same people that

48:39

have been fucking up the

48:42

financial space and rigging the game,

48:45

know the game is rigged and want

48:47

access to the exit. So I'm

48:50

not sure anyone

48:52

disagrees with Bitcoin. Maybe

48:55

change takes time, but. Do

48:57

you have any concerns about BlackRock entering Bitcoin?

49:01

No. You

49:03

don't think there's any risk that they

49:05

have so much social clout within Bitcoin that they can

49:08

push through changes or objects changes

49:11

that social cloud who? No,

49:13

I mean. But

49:16

they certainly have a lot of influence and they

49:19

will get growing influence because the people that buying

49:21

the BlackRock ETF are not

49:23

the Bitcoiners in this room, right? Yeah,

49:27

I mean, listen, like we open this

49:29

conversation with the only way Larry saying

49:31

can change Bitcoin is if he updated

49:34

every one of our computers. That's

49:37

what makes it resilient to this idea.

49:40

The other thing that's really important is this

49:42

is why Bitcoin, one of the reasons Bitcoin

49:44

doesn't work with something like proof of stake

49:46

or proof of stake doesn't work because it

49:48

doesn't matter how many Bitcoins Michael Taylor or

49:50

Larry Fink acquire data that doesn't give them

49:52

any outsized influence on the protocol. So

49:55

Larry Fink's gonna have to walk his old ass

49:57

into my house, change my computer and

50:00

that eight billion times over. Get

50:02

the fuck out of here. I

50:05

just don't see it whatsoever. This

50:08

is a little bit more speculation, which could be

50:11

an interesting debate. I

50:13

don't think anyone on this planet

50:15

now has an opportunity to acquire

50:18

enough Bitcoins to be a threat.

50:21

If you owned 85% of

50:23

the Bitcoin supply, you would

50:26

theoretically be somewhat

50:28

of a threat. You can corner the market. Because

50:32

the way Satoshi Nakamoto released Bitcoin

50:34

in a grounds up way, Satoshi

50:37

Nakamoto didn't list Bitcoin publicly through

50:39

Goldman Sachs. Satoshi Nakamoto didn't ring

50:41

the bell at the NASDAQ. No

50:43

one had early access to the

50:45

cap table. Because

50:47

it was a grounds up movement,

50:49

Bitcoin is already so well distributed.

50:51

It'd be imposs... We're seeing Michael

50:54

Saylor go on the greatest tear

50:56

in the history of Bitcoin, and he just

50:58

hit 1%. I mean,

51:00

Satoshi owns in theory not

51:03

even a 20th. I

51:05

mean, it'd be a 20th. It

51:07

would be impossible for someone to own

51:10

something like a third of the supply.

51:13

And so I just don't see it. I don't see

51:15

it at all. I

51:18

do think that owning

51:21

an ETF is not owning spot Bitcoin. I

51:23

mean, what you want to do is exit

51:25

the system, in my opinion. I

51:28

think money is

51:30

abstracted time and energy at

51:33

the end of the day. And the

51:36

world has borrowed a ton of

51:38

time and energy and not delivered

51:41

back on it. And

51:43

so the question that everyone's trying to figure

51:45

out, that every single government in Central Bank

51:47

is trying to figure out, is whose time

51:49

and energy is going to pay that

51:51

back? Does that make sense? Money

51:54

is abstracted time and energy. All

51:56

of the time and energy you spent, it's

51:58

an instrument to capture that. The

52:00

global debt to GDP is 360%. So

52:04

that's a metric to see how much time

52:06

and energy people have borrowed from all of

52:08

you and

52:10

they didn't make a hole on it. They can't pay that

52:12

back. But that loss has to

52:15

be realized somewhere by someone. And

52:17

so the question that everyone's trying to wrestle with, like we

52:20

could do a debt jubilee where

52:24

the US government just says

52:26

we're defaulting. And then the

52:29

people that would be paying it back are the

52:31

bond holders, right? So they don't do that because

52:33

Jamie Dimon owns all the bonds, right? So

52:35

the theory is that everyone in the room pays

52:37

it back via inflation. And so to me, buying

52:41

Bitcoin a lot of, in this

52:43

realm of conversation, buying Bitcoin is exiting it

52:45

and saying, I understand that debt

52:47

to GDP is 360%, that there's an insane amount

52:50

of human time and energy that has been stolen

52:52

and has to be made whole on. It's not

52:55

going to be mine. If

52:57

you're in a financial asset,

53:00

like an ETF, you're

53:03

not out, like they still have access to your time

53:05

and energy. So

53:07

I think it's different assets, but I have

53:09

no problem with people that play fiat games

53:12

that want to do, I

53:14

don't think that's a big deal. Can

53:16

we talk about scaling? Sure. You

53:19

obviously have a lot of experience in Lightning. Originally

53:22

when you worked on Zap, that was a Lightning wallet. There's

53:26

a lot of challenges with scaling at the moment. There's

53:29

people putting things on a chain that some

53:31

people believe is garbage. I mean, I think

53:33

it's garbage. Some people believe it's super important.

53:35

I think it's bullshit. But like

53:38

whatever reason, we some point have to solve

53:40

scaling issues. Lightning has its challenges. You

53:43

were somebody who's building a company that

53:45

is built on the Bitcoin network. What

53:49

is your view on where we are with scaling Bitcoin at the

53:51

moment? Because you obviously have to consider a lot. When

53:54

I run Strike internally, something

53:57

I ask my employees to do all the time. when

54:00

they enter a meeting, when they create an

54:02

objective, is what does success look like? It's

54:05

incredibly important to understand the finish

54:08

line before you start the race. Because

54:12

or else you don't know if you won,

54:14

if you lost, if you're late, if you're

54:16

early. And so when it comes

54:18

to the Lightning Network, what does success look like?

54:21

If the Lightning Network was designed to

54:23

cure all forms of cancer,

54:25

yeah, it's not working. If

54:28

the Lightning Network was an open

54:30

value transfer standard on the internet,

54:33

works great. For me,

54:35

at least, and I would find, I'd be hard

54:38

pressed to find someone that says it doesn't, is

54:41

a value transfer protocol on

54:43

the internet that settles in a

54:45

cash final manner with barely

54:47

any fees, if any, at all. So

54:49

I don't know, I mean, Bitcoin, again,

54:53

there is no central planning, so who

54:55

defines success? I

54:57

think for many of us, Lightning is a phenomenal tool. Can

55:00

we build more? Yes, of course, but does that

55:02

mean it sucks? No. For

55:04

others, Lightning isn't helpful because,

55:07

you know, they're, whatever, curing cancer. They're trying to

55:09

do something that, at least,

55:12

that wasn't my version of success.

55:15

So, I don't know, here, again,

55:17

this is why we would want to

55:19

fund open source developers, is we want

55:21

no strings attached, funding, to devs, because

55:24

Bitcoin's an open source project, people should be able to do what

55:26

they want, if it sucks, we won't adopt it, if it's great,

55:28

we'll adopt it. I think people are gonna build a lot of

55:30

cool things. And

55:32

I think for what, my interpretation of what Lightning was

55:35

supposed to do, I think it's doing a good job.

55:40

I'm gonna stay with the inscription stuff

55:42

at the moment. We recorded a podcast

55:44

episode with Bitcoin Mechanic. We've

55:47

also recorded shows with Shinobi and

55:50

a few other people, and there's this kind

55:52

of different opinion. My view

55:54

is Bitcoin is money, so I care about, we've

55:56

all been out to various countries around the world where people have money

55:58

that isn't as good as ours. And so Bitcoin's

56:01

over and that's super important. Some

56:04

people have just like, oh, I just accept, you

56:06

know, just accepted we can't do anything about people

56:08

and put a bullshit on, on, on Shane. Where

56:11

someone like mechanic takes this ultra principle view says,

56:13

no, we should and we can and we should

56:15

work against it. What do you think

56:17

about this? If

56:19

I'm being super honest, I,

56:24

I view it as a distraction to

56:26

my time. You know,

56:31

again, Bitcoin's this permission system.

56:33

If some guy is

56:35

going to spend millions

56:37

of dollars a day or a week to

56:40

put JPEG cats

56:43

on Bitcoin, point them

56:45

out. I'll go shake his hand. Thank

56:47

you for helping secure my

56:49

savings. I have no idea why you would be

56:51

on pace to spend $250 million a year to

56:54

secure my net worth.

56:58

But I appreciate that. I'm cool. Like,

57:00

what am I supposed to do? I mean, the

57:02

incentives are in a place where

57:05

anyone, no matter who you are,

57:07

will run out of money unless

57:09

it's economical. Bitcoin's incentives are

57:11

built in a way where it has

57:13

to be economically sane for it to

57:15

scale. So I,

57:17

you know, I log onto Twitter

57:19

and someone is seemingly

57:22

wasting money, putting

57:26

JPEGs on the channel. I

57:29

don't, I don't have an opinion. I got work to do.

57:31

I'm trying to launch Europe. Like I, I just find it

57:34

a bit pointless of a, of

57:36

a debate. And if

57:39

it is economical, then in a

57:41

free market, it's hard for me

57:43

to not justify

57:45

that. So

57:47

you believe that given a long enough timeframe,

57:50

economic transactions on Bitcoin just outspend

57:52

the nonsense. Yeah,

57:55

of course. I mean, do you

57:57

not believe? No, I do. I agree. You

58:00

know, like, let's

58:03

put it this way. If someone spends more

58:05

than they earn, in theory,

58:07

they run out of money. If

58:10

someone earns more than they

58:12

spend, in theory, they could spend forever. They'll never

58:14

run out of money. How

58:17

markets work. So that's the

58:19

free market being the judge of something's

58:21

worth it. I went

58:29

to Harvard. I went to Harvard. All

58:33

right. Sadly, we're coming

58:36

close to an end. We

58:38

got two minutes

58:40

40 to go. A

58:42

lot of people here, a lot of people come out to see

58:44

you, to see everyone else, come to Bedford, a lot of people...

58:47

You would have seen this earlier. Sorry, you

58:49

should see this, Jack. Hands up if this is your

58:51

first Bitcoin conference. Wow!

58:53

Who are you guys? They

58:58

don't let us out of England much. That's

59:00

awesome. But it's really cool. It's really inspirational. A

59:03

lot of people out here may be thinking, you know, I

59:06

want to do something. I want to support Bitcoin.

59:08

You know, I want to get deeper involved. I

59:10

don't just want to turn up. You know, you've

59:12

been involved a long time. Any words of wisdom

59:14

for everyone here? Awesome.

59:21

No, seriously. I mean, it's a network. Networks

59:24

are defined by the participants, right?

59:27

Like a network of one is

59:29

hardly a network at all. So join the

59:32

network. And, you know, I believe

59:35

the people that have this attitude of,

59:37

you know, well,

59:39

I understand it and I get it

59:41

and I understand why it goes up

59:43

and I understand why people are building

59:45

incredible wealth and avoiding a hidden tax

59:48

by oppressive governments. But, you

59:50

know, it just... Well, you deserve

59:52

the worst. Sorry.

59:58

Be the change you want to see. Nothing

1:00:01

will change if you don't change.

1:00:04

You know, I have this conversation with my friends all the time. It's

1:00:07

like, no, totally. I get it. I get how you're up 10,000%

1:00:09

just sitting on your ass. You're

1:00:12

the best performing hedge fund in America

1:00:14

out of that empty closet. I

1:00:17

understand how inflation doesn't affect you. I understand

1:00:19

how now you're an overall healthier person and

1:00:21

you have a lower time preference. But

1:00:24

you know, what if the government tries

1:00:26

to legal? It's like, well, then you

1:00:28

deserve to be a slave to their

1:00:30

decisions. So I would say join

1:00:32

the network. Be the change you want to see. I'd

1:00:35

be shocked if the system we're

1:00:37

in now is the system my kids grew up in. And

1:00:41

for context, I don't have kids. I

1:00:43

plan to, you know, hopefully someday. So

1:00:46

I think we will be part of change. I don't know

1:00:48

what that is, but I'm going to place my vote. You

1:00:52

know what I mean? Place a vote. Don't

1:00:55

be a bitch. Sadly,

1:01:07

we're at the end. Jack, I appreciate you

1:01:09

coming over for this, brother. Yeah. Thank

1:01:12

you, our friendship. Danny, thanks for your

1:01:14

help today with everything. Thank you. You're

1:01:16

the best. That's it, guys. All

1:01:24

right. That's it. Final

1:01:26

cheat code episode. Hope

1:01:28

you enjoyed it. Hope you enjoyed all

1:01:31

that amazing content. Thank you to everyone

1:01:33

got involved. The speakers, the attendees, the

1:01:35

volunteers. Our boy Danny

1:01:37

absolutely crushed it. It's very

1:01:39

special to have you all in bed. Keep

1:01:41

your eyes out. We're going to be dropping the

1:01:43

date for cheat code Australia very soon. I'll be

1:01:45

heading down to Sydney and then

1:01:48

obviously we'll be announcing cheat code bed for 25.

1:01:51

All right. If you have any questions about this or anything else, please

1:01:53

do get in touch. Hello. What Bitcoin

1:01:55

did.