0:13

Welcome to the IDC podcast . This is

0:15

Aleko , and I hope you're doing well . So

0:17

we've got book club today and we're

0:20

going to be talking about chapters seven

0:22

and eight of demonic foes by

0:24

Dr Richard Gallagher . This

0:26

was a very interesting chapter indeed , so

0:28

if you're reading the book , I recommend you

0:31

listen to our discussion . One

0:33

minor caveat is that the recording was a little bit

0:35

tinny today because the

0:37

audio equipment was on the fritz , but

0:40

unfortunately my end came through all right

0:43

, but everyone else was a little bit odd , so

0:45

it sounds a little bit more like a phone call on their end , but

0:47

we still had fun nonetheless and we really enjoyed ourselves

0:50

and got a lot of help to be able to get more content

0:52

out there . It has been a very busy

0:54

few weeks since I've come back from my

0:56

trip to see family in Greece , and

0:59

another thing is , you know , I've been in

1:01

prayer regarding what

1:04

would be appropriate to talk about in these

1:06

very trying times . Obviously

1:08

, I don't want to cover topics that might

1:10

seem trite or superficial when

1:13

it seems , now more than ever , the world needs

1:15

prayer . So I love

1:17

you all and I hope

1:20

you're doing well , and I hope that

1:22

we can all pray for those who

1:24

are suffering right now . God

1:26

bless you and , him willing , I'll be able

1:28

to get something edifying up on the podcast soon

1:30

enough . Welcome

1:45

to the IDC podcast book club where

1:48

we are discussing demonic foes

1:50

by Dr Richard Gallagher . This is a leko

1:52

and I'm joined by my friends , but

1:55

before they introduce themselves , brian

1:58

, would you be keen to do an opening prayer ?

2:01

Yeah , rather just thank

2:03

you for bringing us together here for the

2:05

next few minutes . Be with us in

2:07

our conversation and our thoughts and

2:10

maybe be glorified to you for

2:12

asking Jesus name .

2:15

Okay , all right . So who's with us today

2:18

?

2:33

What's the ?

2:34

temperature currently there . Yeah

2:36

, we are autumn just finished

2:38

. Do your leaves change significantly

2:41

where you are ? Yeah , okay , okay

2:44

.

2:44

Okay , all right .

2:45

Yeah , our hours were yellow

2:52

and red really beautiful for a month

2:54

and a half , and the

2:57

wind just took all of them . They're on the ground

2:59

now and there's a bit of snow on the roofs

3:02

. So yeah , interesting

3:04

, interesting , who . Who

3:07

else is with us ?

3:10

Darren and I am on the west

3:12

coast of Canada where the

3:15

weather is very fresh . We've got a north

3:17

wind coming in and yeah

3:19

, it's been good

3:22

since the last call , busy with preschool

3:25

and work and all of those

3:27

wonderful things .

3:29

Do you feel like you're making advances in preschool

3:31

?

3:36

I just get . I get our

3:38

three year old daughter there . But actually

3:41

it's interesting . You

3:43

know some people . I've heard conversations where

3:45

people can be quite dismissive about preschool

3:48

but

3:50

I found like , particularly

3:52

socially , it's been a

3:55

huge game changer for our

3:57

daughter . So , yeah

4:00

, she's , she's enjoying the benefits of

4:02

preschool . Unfortunately , I don't get

4:04

to stay , I just get to meet her

4:06

there and drop her off , still

4:08

not coloring .

4:10

It does sound like a lot of fun

4:12

, but you still can't color in the lines

4:14

, right ? So you need that little extra time . Every

4:16

time you go there I

4:20

just pretend like I can't color at all . That's

4:23

cool . Yeah , that's , that's great . Yeah

4:25

, she looks beautiful . I'm

4:28

assuming that is that's really good socially

4:30

, you know , for kiddos to be in there

4:32

. You know , okay

4:35

, sweet , who else is with us ?

4:38

Yeah , it's Brian again in the northeast of

4:40

England and since the last

4:42

boot club , since we last joined , I've been very busy

4:44

watching in the rugby World Cup . It's

4:46

appropriate that we have it today because we have the

4:48

final this evening between

4:50

New Zealand and South Africa

4:53

.

4:53

Nice , nice . Good match

4:55

to see how many hours

4:58

until that takes place ? I would be keen

5:00

to watch that back . Maybe the timing will be off

5:02

.

5:03

No , it's about four hours . That's

5:06

the kids of 8pm , which is four and a half

5:08

hours .

5:09

Okay , I might find a bar to watch

5:11

that . I don't know if anyone be showing it .

5:13

That'll be good , there'll be plenty of variety , south

5:15

Africans and Kiwis in it . So you have to

5:18

check your side .

5:19

Either black or green and gold . I

5:22

remember rooting for South Africa years

5:25

ago when we watched the , I

5:27

guess , the championships in

5:30

Dalian and Northern China . We went

5:32

, all went to a bar , we

5:34

had a long , you know , we did

5:36

, we played pool and everyone

5:39

just kind of rallied around the TV and it

5:41

was fun . It was good fun . This

5:45

is . This is Aleco , and yeah , I'm here

5:47

in Duluth . We obviously had a little

5:49

break . I went

5:51

to Greece to see my brother

5:53

and my niece and

5:56

other family members and let's

6:01

see what else happened . I see

6:03

, is my audio good ? Let me check real quick

6:05

. It's fine . Well

6:09

, yeah , oh , okay , so

6:11

that should be a little more clear . Yeah , so I went to hang

6:15

on . I mean

6:18

, technology is always

6:21

good .

6:22

It really wasn't a lot going on Aleco

6:24

, only a trip to Greece and England .

6:27

Yeah , yeah , that old chestnut grease

6:29

flying to Greece . No

6:31

, greece was beautiful , athens was

6:34

was fantastic . If

6:36

I recall , like one of the things that

6:38

I pointed out to Melanie was a Hanoi . Vietnam

6:41

, which is where we all met , was

6:43

almost a spiritual cousin to

6:45

Athens . It's kind of congested

6:47

, the there's even a similar aesthetic

6:50

with some of the brutalist

6:52

architecture that you find in the city , the more

6:54

modern stuff it's

6:57

. Athens , I think , is a little more functional

6:59

than Vietnam there's . You know , vietnam

7:01

is is kind of a beautiful

7:03

chaos , but and

7:07

then you juxtapose with that brutalist architecture

7:09

, you have things that are thousands of years old

7:11

, and I think you have something similar

7:13

in Vietnam . I don't know if it's thousands of years

7:15

old , but you have some old stuff , you know

7:17

, peppered throughout the city , and

7:20

so there is a similar aesthetic and

7:23

it was just really good to be back . It was good

7:25

to take a break the . The

7:28

job is pretty stressful right now . Supply chain

7:30

is is all kinds of crazy

7:33

. Ironically , one of you know

7:35

I won't disclose too much , but one

7:37

of the one of

7:41

the stakeholders that we work with quite

7:43

often is smack deb in the middle of Israel

7:46

and they're

7:48

they hold a crucial

7:50

piece to piece to the puzzle , so to speak

7:52

. So it's it's been a real pain lately

7:56

. You know everything that's going on . It's just tragic

7:58

. So you know you have

8:00

, you

8:02

know , a number of people who rely

8:05

on this component to keep our doors

8:07

open . You know over thousands

8:09

of people . Yet how

8:11

do you pressure , how do you pressure

8:14

this stakeholder to produce the component

8:16

when they're ? You know there's some

8:18

tragic things happening in the Middle East right now

8:21

, so it's a real

8:23

rock in a hard place type of situation

8:25

. But yeah

8:28

, outside of that it's , god

8:31

is good . So I'm glad

8:33

to be here talking to you all and , yeah

8:37

, so what we

8:39

did chapters , was it six and seven

8:41

or seven and eight ? Of

8:44

seven

8:46

, seven , eight , yeah , okay , okay . So seven

8:48

and eight . I've got my notes

8:50

and yeah , I really I thought

8:53

the reading was was pretty good and I'm keen to hear what

8:55

everyone else thinks . So

8:57

, Hillary , did you have any favorite

8:59

part of the reading ?

9:03

So my favourite part was that

9:06

we were

9:08

discussing this lady's

9:10

problems

9:14

that she had and she

9:17

was being through multiple

9:19

exorcisms before the

9:22

author arrived at the

9:25

house and I

9:27

thought it was quite amazing

9:29

that the lady's husband

9:32

maintained

9:34

an equanimity and patient

9:36

about patients , about his wife's

9:38

condition , despite the terrible

9:41

circumstances , and

9:43

I thought that was quite amazing really

9:46

that he was so sort

9:48

of .

9:50

So this is the woman that I

9:53

had . Is this the one with

9:55

the selective listening ?

9:58

Yeah , she had apparently been

10:00

part of a witch's coven when

10:02

she was much younger and

10:05

had become possessed by something

10:09

, and but

10:12

in the meantime she got married to

10:14

this chap and

10:18

had children and had a normal life , and

10:20

then suddenly it really

10:23

just taken over .

10:27

This particular chapter got me thinking about

10:29

many ex-girlfriends who had selective

10:31

listening and if

10:34

there could have been demonic activity involved

10:36

.

10:40

Well , unless you're fussing , you're up to fussing yourself

10:43

as a demon .

10:47

Guilty is charged . I guess I'm kidding . That

10:52

was quite fascinating . And how she

10:54

could . In the chapter , I believe

10:56

, it says that they

10:58

would shift

11:01

from these sessions where

11:03

they were trying to exercise

11:07

the demons , and then all of a sudden she'd be helping

11:09

put on dinner . Yeah

11:17

, what I think is

11:20

interesting is the

11:22

author tried to create a . This

11:26

is maybe a bit tangential . You know what ? I'm going to save that

11:28

for later . I had a thought on that , but I'll save it for

11:30

later . Perhaps I'll ask Brian

11:33

, did you have a favorite part of the

11:35

reading ? Sorry , we're going to Darren .

11:40

Yeah , mine is very similar to Hilary

11:42

Brees . I thought it was quite

11:44

impressive how these

11:47

this couple have been able to

11:49

hold together their relationship through

11:52

all of the stuff going on

11:54

and it

11:57

seems like she's got a very supportive

11:59

husband and I

12:03

was also very impressed by

12:05

her and

12:08

, I guess , her husband's just determination to

12:10

keep pushing through these exorcism

12:12

processes because she'd

12:15

been through I don't know

12:17

, it sounds like more than a

12:19

dozen exorcism

12:23

rituals and it

12:25

was showing some

12:28

signs of benefit . But at the

12:30

same time it was very , very taxing

12:32

and she

12:35

would the

12:37

possessed lady Catherine , she

12:39

would be in essentially kind of a

12:41

slump for a day or

12:43

two before the priests

12:46

would come and she really

12:48

struggled through that and was , you

12:50

know , trying to prepare a meal and

12:52

be a great host in

12:54

advance of their coming . And

12:58

then the

13:00

exorcisms itself were

13:02

sounded quite awful , where she

13:04

would , you

13:06

know , be straining

13:08

physically and was

13:10

in trances

13:13

and in days

13:15

and different things like that . And

13:18

then once the exorcism was completed

13:20

, it was like she was just exhausted

13:23

, like she'd been in a you know been

13:25

on the , been in the octagon for

13:27

for seven rounds , kind of thing

13:29

. So yeah , it's . It's

13:31

a very , I think , a very impressive

13:34

story of love really

13:36

between this , this couple , and also

13:38

the determination to keep to

13:40

get to work through this and and

13:43

make things better . And it kind of reminded

13:45

me of situations I know of where people

13:48

suffer from , you know

13:50

, a mental illness that they're not able to

13:52

get a grasp on and find

13:55

the right medications for , or

13:58

alcoholism , or drug

14:01

use or any of those , those kind

14:03

of very destructive habits

14:05

or states of mind

14:07

that would normally , especially

14:10

in in

14:13

today's society where , like

14:15

, the value of marriage is and

14:18

staying together for life is , you know , not

14:20

as it's not

14:22

as socially , there's

14:26

not as much social pressure around doing that , so

14:28

it's so easy to just start kind of leave

14:31

and say , yeah , you're not the right person for me . It's too

14:33

tough , you know , see later yeah

14:38

, really good points , really good points .

14:39

That I mean , if anything's gonna test a marriage

14:42

, it's probably gonna be demon possession . Yeah

14:45

, I completely agree

14:47

, brian

14:50

. Did you have any ? Any favorite part of

14:52

the ring ?

14:54

yes , sure , so I like . I

14:56

think it was perhaps in chapter eight . The fact

14:58

they mentioned for me was top percent on sure

15:01

with this , this idea that demons

15:04

have distinct personalities and

15:07

characteristics and that he , he

15:09

claims that you can tell which ones are a bit more intelligent

15:11

than others . Some are a bit more sassy

15:13

and cheeky , and you know

15:15

, he , he suggests that

15:18

that's because you know

15:20

, at least one of these one , one type of demon

15:22

, is a fallen angel . So they were

15:24

real beings with personalities and

15:26

I suppose I'd always just lumped

15:28

angels , whether they be angels or

15:30

fallen angels , in the one one , one

15:32

set . I never really thought

15:34

that they also possess personalities

15:37

, characteristics , intelligence levels

15:39

. So that was quite a new and

15:41

interesting thought for sure

15:43

, yeah , yeah , a really interesting point .

15:47

Um , yeah , I would have nothing to add to that , but

15:49

yeah , that was kind of fascinating . I

15:52

think that this has been a recurring

15:54

theme throughout the book is something I thought was was

15:56

interesting because I I

15:58

always wondered why a ? Um

16:02

, the rights

16:05

of exorcism would be recited

16:07

in a different language , be it

16:09

you know , latin or Greek or

16:11

whatever it is , depending on , you know , if it's orthodoxy

16:13

or Catholicism , and I always thought

16:16

it kind of reduced our

16:18

faith into some type of mystical

16:20

hocus pocus , as if you're , you know , reading

16:22

like it , or or mystical

16:24

mumbo jumbo is , if you're reading some type of

16:26

incantation that's gonna , you know , reverse

16:29

a spell . But I

16:31

think the point that , um , oftentimes

16:35

, when there's these possessions , the person can understand

16:37

different languages and that that's

16:39

a that's a two-sided coin . There's there's

16:42

this concept of speaking in tongues in

16:45

in Christianity and there's a lot

16:47

of charlatans . I think 90%

16:49

of the people who who publicly display this

16:51

are Maybe not being

16:53

sincere . I think it said you know , there's

16:55

a lot of sort of bozos that are

16:57

just pretending because it's probably the easiest

17:00

thing to fake . But I've also

17:02

heard some really interesting stories of

17:04

quote-unquote tongues , where

17:06

what

17:10

what I heard , for example , was was a very credible

17:12

witness who told me this . There

17:15

was a woman who , in there was a

17:17

giant prayer session going on and

17:19

she began speaking a Language

17:22

, and it wasn't just a language , it was . It was um , it

17:25

was a Slavic language , I can't recall which one , but it was

17:28

a specific dialect from

17:30

a very particular region . She

17:32

started speaking this way in a church and

17:35

, of course , nobody

17:37

understood , except for one other person

17:39

who was from this exact place where

17:41

this dialect came from , and it was

17:43

a direct message to that person . And

17:46

While that person spoke English

17:48

, everyone knew

17:50

that the message that this woman had was specifically

17:53

for that person , because it you know

17:55

it very specifically

17:57

was that that in that particular dialect

17:59

in it . So so the quote-unquote

18:02

tongues , you know , serve several purposes

18:04

. It was a corroboration of spiritual activity , because

18:06

this person was speaking a language that never heard before

18:08

, new or knew anything about , and

18:11

it was Directed at a

18:13

very particular person in the congregation

18:15

that day . So I've

18:17

heard a couple of stories like that where the

18:20

other person can . It seems

18:22

like you know when , when there is a Either angelic

18:24

or you know , you're someone's maybe

18:27

indulged by the Holy Spirit , or

18:30

the other side of the coin , which is demonic possession

18:32

, there's this language ability . That is

18:34

really fascinating , and

18:36

so

18:40

the

18:42

the use of Latin or

18:44

or Greek or whatever it may be

18:46

is is kind of a , it's

18:49

a litmus test . You know that , that

18:51

maybe it's

18:53

one way to find out if you know the

18:55

person's faking it or not , and I think that

18:57

that's it's something that's been , you know , brought

19:00

up since , since the early chapters of the book

19:02

, but I find it to be fascinating and that's that's

19:04

done that way .

19:08

Yeah , you said Leko , again jaw , and

19:20

it's бабbles a

19:32

different form of communication .

19:34

Yeah , interesting . Well

19:36

, there's two . I think there are two versions of it

19:38

. There's angelic tongues and then there's I

19:41

guess tongues is in languages that we know

19:43

on earth . The

19:45

angelic tongues is the one I feel that

19:47

is abused personally , just my opinion

19:49

, but I do believe it's

19:52

a thing . I mean clearly it's happened scripturally

19:55

. And then my brother-in-law , who's actually

19:57

staying with me , he came to town this weekend

19:59

. He said that when

20:01

he had his conversion experience , he

20:05

had this and I'm not gonna do any

20:07

justice he

20:09

felt something come over him and

20:12

his he didn't know about

20:14

tongues and he wasn't prompted to do so and I think that's

20:16

one of the I'm just tangentially I think of one

20:19

of the reasons why a lot of these

20:21

people are charlatans is two

20:23

people I've had tried to get me to speak in tongues

20:25

and they said the

20:28

thing leading up to it was them telling me oh well , you've

20:30

just gotta start rolling , rolling

20:33

your mouth around and start undulating

20:35

, and it's just gonna happen . And I'm

20:37

like , well , that's not exactly what happened in the acts

20:39

of the apostles . Nobody showed up

20:42

waiting to start babbling

20:44

nonsense . It just happened

20:46

. And that's what happened to my brother-in-law

20:49

. He felt

20:51

something come over him and his mouth started

20:53

moving and he said it

20:55

was the most beautiful thing he could hear and

20:57

he wasn't really in control of it and I don't know how

20:59

long it lasted , but

21:02

he's quite credible and I think he was

21:04

being sincere and earnest and I

21:06

had . He had no reason to lie about it because it was just an

21:08

anecdote he shared with me . So I

21:11

have heard that it is possible , but

21:13

I am skeptical about a lot of

21:15

the people who kind of put it on

21:17

display yeah

21:20

, so anyways . Yeah , so

21:22

that was a fascinating thing . I think the

21:25

notion of language or language ability with

21:27

spiritual possession is interesting .

21:32

Just one thing surely

21:34

the exorcism predates

21:38

like

21:40

the 1662 King

21:42

James version of the Bible , because prior

21:45

to that all the versions

21:47

were in Latin anyway .

21:49

Sure , yeah

21:52

, good point .

21:56

There'll be versions in English and things like that

21:58

.

21:58

Yeah , there will be now , but I'm just saying that

22:00

the original version would have been in Latin

22:02

and there are some branches

22:06

of the church that prefer

22:08

to continue the original . Yeah

22:11

, that's what happened .

22:14

I thought it was very interesting that

22:16

some of the priests

22:18

I think this is more so in chapter eight , but some

22:20

of the priests preferred

22:23

a specific version of

22:25

the exorcism right , where

22:27

some of them they know we like to do it in

22:29

the vernacular , in English or what have you

22:31

, and then others would say , no

22:34

, we like Latin . And then some would say , well , we like

22:36

the Latin , but

22:39

the 1664 version

22:41

, yeah , yeah , yeah

22:44

. I found that was very , very

22:47

interesting and when

22:49

I was reading it I sort of got the . I

22:52

couldn't help but think of like lucky

22:55

terms in a way . So you know , if you have

22:57

a good result with a

22:59

certain thing , then

23:01

going with it

23:04

and feel that it is a superior

23:06

version or something like that , yeah

23:09

, yeah , yeah .

23:11

Yeah , really good points . All

23:14

right , let's see opinions

23:17

changed Hillary .

23:23

So I was . I know that

23:25

the author has said a few things

23:27

about this previously in the

23:30

book , but the lady in

23:32

question , he

23:34

wrote , knew the details of our trip

23:37

right down to the rift time of our arrival

23:39

. I found that quite

23:42

scary , in a way

23:44

that you know

23:46

that , all

23:49

that information , even

23:51

though they hadn't actually told

23:53

her that anything was going to happen

23:55

. She knew all about it .

23:58

So that harkens back to the one of the earlier chapters

24:00

with the woman who was possessed and could

24:03

remote view what another priest

24:06

was doing at the beach , and

24:14

that gets the mind sort

24:16

of turning about what

24:18

some of these psychics and mediums who

24:20

are capable of

24:23

certain things , what's really going

24:25

on behind the scenes ? So

24:28

it's I've

24:31

never encountered , I'm sorry .

24:33

The story of the New Testament

24:35

, isn't it Paul , who casts out a demon

24:38

from a fortune teller and their

24:40

master or their owner wasn't very happy

24:42

because that was their sort of income , sort

24:44

of sort of reminded me very much of that that

24:47

even since New Testament times , disability

24:49

being able to , as you said , foretell the

24:51

future is a real dynamic

24:53

trait .

24:55

Yeah , yeah , it's interesting

24:57

, it's very interesting . All

25:01

right , darren , any opinions changed

25:03

?

25:07

I guess this probably needs to be taken with a

25:09

grain of salt , since I

25:11

believe Dr Gallagher is a

25:14

practicing Catholic , but

25:17

I was impressed at reading

25:19

chapter eight , in particular

25:21

how he

25:23

details the some

25:26

of the different ways exorcisms

25:29

are done in different Christian

25:31

circles and

25:33

it seems to me that the

25:35

Catholic Church

25:38

and how they approach

25:41

the exorcism rights is

25:43

very methodical

25:45

and disciplined and cautious and

25:47

that it's

25:50

, I think , they treat it with a

25:52

level of seriousness

25:54

, that it's not

25:56

something to play with or dabble

25:58

in or do on

26:00

a whim , rather

26:06

it's a spiritual

26:08

inclined , let's say , profession

26:10

. And yeah , I

26:12

was quite impressed reading that .

26:16

I think that I

26:18

think that that's how the Catholic

26:21

Church works . I mean , we I

26:23

didn't tell them completely different , but

26:25

we got different

26:28

people

26:31

from lots of different denominations

26:33

to come to a meeting and the Catholic Church

26:35

would always tell

26:38

somebody that they were going

26:40

to come , whereas the other

26:42

the Protestant churches were all over

26:44

the place . So

26:47

so I think that's sort of how

26:51

the Catholic Church is run , but I

26:53

think that in that way , I

26:55

was quite , also quite impressed with that

26:57

, because it meant that you

27:00

know , you always worry that if lay people

27:02

get involved , they might be overwhelmed

27:05

or not able to cope with

27:07

the situation .

27:10

Yeah , there's also a

27:13

I think this is particularly

27:15

the case in some of the charismatic

27:17

churches that

27:20

there can be a real social

27:22

pressure to demonstrate

27:24

successes and say

27:26

, like spiritual , your

27:29

spiritual worth by demonstrating

27:33

your . I think they would term it

27:35

something like gifts of the spirit , and

27:38

and I

27:40

I know from what

27:42

. So I was never a charismatic

27:45

, charismatic Pentecostal type

27:47

of Christian , but I do have some

27:49

friends who were and

27:51

some who still are , and the

27:54

ones who were former Pentecostals

27:56

will admit to me that

27:59

they they would fake

28:01

spiritual gifts because

28:03

they just felt such an immense social

28:05

pressure to demonstrate that they had spiritual

28:07

gifts as a kind of confirmation of their

28:10

, their salvation

28:13

. And I

28:15

could see something

28:17

like exorcisms in

28:19

that type of environment being

28:21

a very , very tricky thing

28:23

, because if someone was truly demonically

28:26

possessed and they

28:28

went through an exorcism ritual

28:30

with one of their fellow members

28:33

of the congregation who

28:36

who claimed to have the spiritual gift

28:38

, the , the social pressure

28:41

to say that it was a successful

28:43

exorcism right away would

28:45

be quite substantial , even

28:47

though , as we know from this

28:50

book what Dr Gallagher

28:52

is saying , that and that

28:54

other Catholic priests would corroborate

28:57

this that often it takes many

28:59

, many exorcisms

29:01

to rid someone of of

29:04

a demonic possession . So

29:06

yeah , yeah .

29:09

Yeah , good points . I think the

29:11

whole faking , faking

29:13

the gifts thing is something that I believe

29:15

I've seen and I think a number

29:17

of the gifts you know , you , you

29:20

if you have someone who can sell , it can

29:22

be faked a little bit . And

29:30

speaking of the languages , I think it one

29:32

of the one of the ways I would , I would be convinced

29:35

by that as if it served a direct purpose . You

29:37

know if , if something were happening

29:39

and somebody else understood that the

29:41

language that was being spoken , and

29:44

I in the healing one I

29:46

love . I love the healing one because you know there's

29:48

, of course there are charles into fake

29:51

that as well . But you

29:53

know , when you see it , I think , and I

29:55

have seen it and that's an

29:59

amazing corroboration but it

30:01

discredits the church and it is by

30:04

definition anti Christ

30:06

, the spirit of the anti Christ , to

30:08

pretend to do these things

30:10

for attention or whatever

30:12

that

30:14

conversation . Obviously you know what

30:17

you brought up about a lot of these evangelical

30:21

churches , I think , is

30:23

maybe what pushed me

30:25

back into the Orthodox camp after

30:28

years of not have

30:30

not really attending Orthodox church , and a lot of that

30:32

came down to living in Asia for a decade . But I've

30:37

seen , seen very often , people promoted

30:40

to a rank that are quite immature

30:42

and you know , all

30:44

kinds of things can happen because

30:46

of that . They , you know , may or may be at

30:49

explicating the masses . You

30:52

know , in sorry , in

30:54

locating the masses with

30:56

, with the wrong information , expressing

31:01

feelings rather than facts

31:03

, and there , you know , there's

31:05

all kinds of heresies that can spring up from

31:07

somebody who , just you

31:10

know , maybe isn't ready for it . And I think I've

31:12

seen that quite often , especially in

31:15

churches here in Duluth where I've attended several Bible

31:17

studies , and there's a

31:19

very , you know , sincere

31:22

person that's delivering

31:24

the Bible study . That just is

31:26

. I don't know , and who

31:28

am I to say whether or not somebody's

31:30

ready , but you know to

31:32

say this again , I think you know , you know it when you see it , and

31:35

it's . I'm not always convinced by some of these folks

31:37

and I think you know they need a little more time in the oven

31:39

, so to speak . So who

31:44

are we even on for opinions changed right now ? I

31:48

mean , I'm not sure I'm going to

31:51

say that myself .

31:52

All right , mr Brian , yeah , so the maybe it's more new than

31:54

opinions changed . I haven't appreciated

31:56

again . Go back to chapter seven . You

31:59

know this , this temporary loss of

32:02

physical ability , be it sight or hearing

32:04

or whatever I that was completely

32:06

new to me and it wasn't , you

32:08

know , one of the things that I

32:10

had come across before

32:12

or knew about , so that the fact that

32:15

a demon can cause a

32:17

physical , physical

32:19

disability almost , and

32:22

it can sort of come and go , just seemed

32:25

quite , quite quite

32:27

strange and novel to me

32:30

. That was quite unexpected

32:32

, I think .

32:34

And was that alert alluded to one of the earlier

32:36

chapters where a person

32:38

can have a sensation of not feeling

32:40

well and there's no , you

32:43

know , direct cause for it and

32:45

you know they maybe

32:47

suggested the author maybe suggested it could be

32:49

demon activity . Am I thinking of a different book

32:51

?

32:52

No , no , no , you're right . So earlier on I think they talked

32:54

about , you know , people would have bruising

32:56

and , through physical physical

32:59

, the

33:01

signs of being under physical attack , even though

33:03

there was there was no evidence of any

33:05

physical being attacking them , so

33:08

that I'd sort of thought , all right , yeah , I can , I can get

33:10

with that , but this ability where you can lose

33:13

one of your senses , particularly

33:15

I think he talks about sight and hearing

33:17

because of a demon , you

33:20

know , being possessed and deciding this

33:22

is the way they're going to attack you . I hadn't come

33:24

across that before .

33:27

Yeah , it's interesting , it's interesting

33:29

, yeah , I think he also

33:32

mentioned how pernicious

33:35

it is to have a demonic possession

33:37

that's attacking you in that way

33:39

, because it essentially prevents you

33:41

from you

33:44

know . One hand , you're spiritually

33:46

tormented and on the other hand , anytime

33:49

a Bible is put in front

33:51

of you or someone someone

33:55

who from a certainly from

33:57

a Christian perspective is is

33:59

trying to help you with

34:01

your possession , your years

34:03

working , you can't read the

34:06

scriptures and

34:08

, yeah , it's gonna be very

34:10

, very taxing , and then

34:13

you know , if someone is afflicted

34:16

in that way , you almost can't blame

34:19

them from a human perspective

34:21

of just saying , well , this is clearly not

34:23

for me , forget it , I'm just not going to

34:25

bother dealing

34:28

with my spiritual

34:30

affliction , it's just not meant for

34:32

me , right , and also the pain

34:35

she was the pain of her ears whenever

34:38

she heard sort of the priest's talking

34:41

or somebody from church who tried to come along and help

34:43

her .

34:44

They had to sit at the point

34:46

.

34:48

Yeah , yeah , good points , really good points

34:50

. Alright

34:52

, questions or

34:54

objections ? Hillary ?

34:58

So I'm referring to Chuck

35:01

to write when the

35:03

author was talking about Father Jack

35:05

, who it seemed

35:07

to me that that all this sexism

35:10

is really taking its

35:12

toll on his health . But

35:17

he seemed very knowledgeable

35:22

and , you know

35:25

, senior

35:27

figure . But he

35:29

also said that even

35:31

his prayers are

35:35

answered in God's due time and

35:37

manner and suggested that

35:39

he , you know

35:41

, even the exorcisms he did

35:44

as a senior church person

35:46

didn't didn't always

35:48

go as they don't

35:54

.

35:54

Yeah , that is interesting . It got me thinking

35:56

about the fig tree in the Gospels

35:58

, and it's an example

36:00

of something not happening immediately . Even when

36:03

the son of God spoke to

36:05

the fig tree you shall not produce fruit

36:07

nothing happened , but they

36:09

came back to it and obviously was withered away , and that

36:12

you know , things happen in their

36:14

time . I think , yeah , that's

36:18

a yeah

36:20

good , good point , good point

36:22

, alright

36:25

. Questions or objections ? Darren

36:28

.

36:30

So I guess this is a question

36:32

in chapter 8

36:34

. He's

36:38

just Dr Gallagher's discussing

36:40

how some

36:43

decades ago there were

36:45

justa dozen exorcists

36:47

in the Catholic Church in the

36:49

United States then , and

36:52

now that has increased about

36:54

tenfold and

36:56

still the demand

36:59

for exorcisms

37:02

on those priests far exceeds

37:04

their ability to perform

37:06

exorcisms . Like it's just , you know , they simply

37:09

don't have the time to meet the

37:11

demand . And my

37:14

question is you

37:16

know what ? What happened in

37:18

the ? What

37:21

changed ? I suppose was it an issue where

37:23

, say , 30 years ago

37:25

, a lot of people were demonically

37:27

zest but everyone was just unaware

37:30

of it and not thinking

37:32

of dealing with it ? Or is

37:34

there something in the last 30 years that has

37:36

changed that has made

37:39

the demonic

37:41

, demonic

37:43

realm much more able

37:46

to take a much firmer hold on

37:48

the American population , or whatever

37:51

reasons ?

37:55

in the early chapters of the book I

37:57

believe he alluded to the notion of

37:59

gradation or of

38:01

possession that you know

38:03

, essentially , that there are varying

38:06

levels of demonic activity

38:08

within a person and you know some

38:10

of the symptoms of that , and I

38:13

actually think it's it's much deeper than that . I

38:15

think that , in

38:19

terms of how the scripture alludes to the fact that

38:21

we have will but not free will

38:23

, I think that's very interesting

38:26

, that we do have will and

38:28

we can choose to do things . But

38:31

Christ even says you know , you

38:33

know a demon can be removed from a person , but if

38:35

the person continues in their ways , and that

38:37

that demon will bring in seven more

38:39

. I think and this is

38:41

just a personal opinion , but kind of , you're putting

38:44

pieces together from the scripture and from

38:46

what we see in this book and then you

38:48

know , maybe , what we see . You know around the world , that

38:51

people are always under the influence of

38:53

something and

38:56

you

38:59

, when you get , you know that whisper in your ear to

39:01

say something , or you get a clever

39:04

thought that pops out of nowhere , even

39:07

even a biting remark

39:09

or a witty comment or or any

39:11

old thing . I

39:13

suspect that it's not always our

39:16

mind at work there and

39:18

I think that you

39:23

know there are people who are maybe more

39:26

aware of what's going on , but there are also

39:28

people who are completely

39:31

at the whims of whatever it is behind the scenes

39:33

and they're okay with it because

39:35

you know it gives them an ability

39:38

perhaps to be a comedian and

39:40

you need to be really sort of vulgar and to make

39:42

really funny remarks or whatever it

39:44

might be , and that I

39:46

don't know if this , this really dovetails

39:50

that well into what you just said , but I think that

39:52

everyone

39:54

is intermingling

39:57

with , with whatever these things are all

39:59

the time . Some

40:01

and some people are really sort

40:04

of thrashed by them , like we see in this book . But

40:07

the need for , you know

40:09

, demonic removal , exorcism

40:11

is , you know , prominent

40:13

. You know it probably more now than ever , I guess

40:16

, but there's a long-winded opinion

40:18

. But just kind

40:20

of jumping on .

40:21

Like you said , there there's a one

40:24

of the Russian saints and

40:26

I'm very bad at remembering their

40:28

names , but have

40:31

wrote a little bit about demonic

40:34

activity and he

40:36

, in his writings he says

40:38

that the , the

40:41

demons . Their most common

40:43

form of I guess

40:46

it would be demonic oppression

40:48

, as Dr Gallagher categorizes

40:51

it is that they , they

40:55

seek to build addictions

40:57

. So they'll start , like you said

41:00

, they put it like a

41:02

demon is like a bird that is

41:04

flying over your head and putting thoughts

41:06

in your ears , the thoughts

41:08

of evil in your ears , and then

41:12

it's up to our

41:14

will how we respond

41:16

to those thoughts

41:18

and ideas of temptation

41:20

. And he said

41:22

you don't , don't let

41:24

the demon , don't let the bird make a nest

41:27

in your hair . So that would be like the

41:29

, the , that

41:31

addiction taking hold of your

41:33

life , or that thought turning

41:36

into a , an addiction that takes hold

41:38

of your life . And yeah

41:40

, I guess that plays a little bit into into

41:44

what you had just said earlier yeah

41:46

, yeah , I'm sorry , I'm going sort

41:53

of across the Western world almost

41:56

.

41:56

I always say it as a reservoir if you look

41:58

at the number of churches and Christian communities

42:00

and all right , you can . You know it's taught about

42:02

how many of these people who went to church

42:05

traditionally really believed or they just went

42:07

because it was a socially acceptable

42:09

thing to do . They had to go to church and Sunday

42:11

because there's nothing else to do and everybody

42:13

. It was always expected in in normal

42:16

society or in decent society that you went

42:18

there . So , taking all that kind of side , I'm

42:20

sure there still was a reservoir of

42:23

protection , almost an

42:25

oculation that gave you because you went and

42:27

heard the Bible , you , you , you heard the

42:29

pictures , you were warned about these things

42:31

, and that's just

42:33

certainly in the UK is declining

42:35

quite remarkably over the last 50 or

42:37

60 years . So I don't think it's any surprise

42:39

that demons are able to get to

42:41

get hold and become more of an issue just

42:45

because , if you like , that the good

42:47

side seems to be , seems to be waiting to someone

42:49

.

42:49

So I don't think it's very surprising

42:52

sure , but you know , on

42:54

the comment , or just comment on the inoculation

42:56

con , the statement that you made , I think

42:58

that you know even people

43:00

being in the presence of Christ didn't

43:02

didn't perhaps inoculate

43:05

them from sinning or doing the wrong

43:07

thing . And it's

43:11

no surprise to anyone globally

43:14

who's been to a church that you know there's

43:16

only a certain population of attendees

43:18

in any , you know any

43:20

congregation that are really

43:22

, you know , nose to the grindstone , you

43:25

know , invested in what's going on

43:27

. Perhaps , and then that's not , you

43:29

know , my

43:31

judgment on anyone . I think it's just quantifiably

43:34

true . You know you go into any church

43:36

and there's people that are just there because maybe

43:38

they want to get their kids involved in a positive community

43:41

, or or , you know , they

43:43

just want a place to meet some nice people

43:45

who you know might be you

43:47

know , potential business partners or

43:49

I don't know any reason could be invented

43:51

, but that the there's

43:54

only a small population that's there to

43:56

to really feed on Christ , so

43:58

to speak , in most congregations , I would

44:00

assume . So , yeah

44:04

, I don't know , I don't know if you know , I

44:09

don't know proximity to people

44:13

performing prayers is necessarily

44:15

the inoculation , unless those

44:17

prayers are specifically for you , but it's

44:20

an interesting point . Yeah , maybe I'm just

44:22

thinking out loud . All

44:27

right , let's see who are we on

44:29

for . We're doing questions or

44:31

objections . Is this Brian ? We on Brian

44:33

?

44:34

Yeah , no , nothing for me .

44:37

Okay , yeah , I guess the only question

44:39

or objection I would have is I

44:42

think that throughout the book , dr

44:46

Gallagher has stated that there's

44:50

a dichotomy between illness

44:53

and or

44:55

mental illness , rather , and

44:58

non-demon

45:02

instigated issues and

45:04

then demon instigated issues , and

45:08

I don't know if I agree with that . I think that throughout the scripture

45:11

, whenever Christ is

45:14

dealing with someone

45:16

who has a problem , whether it be a severe demon

45:18

possession or just , you

45:23

know , an illness , there is

45:26

, you

45:29

know what . I want to let that thought maybe mature

45:34

a little bit more , because I think that my

45:36

assumption is that all of these things find

45:39

their root in spiritual activity . But

45:42

I don't know quite how to define it because I don't obviously

45:45

know what's going on . But I think that

45:47

maybe it's a misnomer

45:49

to assume that some of these things

45:51

are just innocuous issues that have

45:53

nothing to do with spiritual activity

45:56

. I think they all find their root in spiritual

45:58

activity somehow and , like

46:01

Darren said , you know , some of them come from addiction

46:03

that's caused by , you know

46:05

, perhaps a whisper in the ear or I don't

46:08

know . Yeah , and thinking out loud , I'll

46:11

have a sip of my coffee and just pretend I didn't say anything .

46:15

I'm not sure I agree with that . I agree that

46:17

some of them maybe , but I'm not sure about any means of being

46:19

said that all ailments are spiritual

46:21

. I think in the Gospel doesn't it say you know

46:23

, somebody asked Jesus

46:25

. I can't remember who it was . You

46:28

know he brought a Neil Primm and he said was

46:30

this basically , was it the mother's fault or the

46:32

father's fault or the grandparents fault ? And

46:34

you know , I think it was a fairly clear answer

46:36

. That was it was none of those . It wasn't the

46:38

issue of the

46:40

guy or that the person had got wasn't

46:43

his fault or his parents fault or anything like that . It

46:45

was just , you know , god chosen

46:47

to let evil in this

46:49

incarnation be there .

46:51

Sure , yeah , yeah . But I mean I don't

46:53

mean well , maybe I should have clarified

46:55

it I don't mean activity as a

46:57

choice by the person

46:59

, but you know perhaps the

47:02

evil , you know allowing that

47:04

degradation , that perhaps you know

47:06

mutation of a cell or whatever

47:08

it might be . So

47:11

it's a very unclear thought . I'm

47:13

just kind of maybe thinking out loud , hoping someone will take

47:15

the reins from me . I

47:19

guess it's like sort of jump on

47:22

that .

47:23

It makes you wonder what kind of world

47:25

it would be if there was no , no

47:28

fall in terms

47:30

of the fall in the Garden of Eden

47:32

, right ? So it from

47:34

my understanding , in the Garden

47:36

of Eden there would be no sickness

47:39

, pain , destruction , that

47:41

sort of thing . So then , in a sense , all

47:45

all of that , whether it's

47:47

addiction or illness

47:49

or whatever , not that it's necessarily

47:52

caused by demonic possession or the invitation

47:54

of the demonic , but it's the

47:57

nature of the

47:59

general evil and the fall in our world

48:01

.

48:01

Yeah yeah , my

48:03

brother in law and I were talking about this yesterday

48:06

, as a matter of fact , and it most

48:09

of it sounds good . You know , no fall

48:11

, but that would also mean no more chicken

48:13

sandwiches or steak or anything like

48:15

that , because allegedly we're supposed to

48:17

live in harmony with these things . But

48:20

man , are they delicious there .

48:28

You see , Hillary's just about to jump in , but so

48:30

you better move on quickly , or

48:33

you'll be Hillary attack , nevermind demolically

48:35

attack .

48:36

That sounds way more dangerous , to be honest with you .

48:38

So , speaking from experience , well , I

48:40

don't know , I wouldn't have had the Hillary attack so far

48:42

, but it's not . It's not pleasant , I tell you .

48:46

All right , well , does anyone have any final

48:48

thoughts on the book ?

48:52

I have to say I find these , I'm finding these

48:54

chapters quite easy reading

48:56

, so it's almost like telling a story in

48:58

a narrative . So it's yeah , I'm

49:01

finding the witness a whole

49:03

enjoyable and informative and certainly

49:06

a topic that I've never really dared

49:08

to delve into before . So I'm , I'm

49:11

enjoying it .

49:12

Yeah , it's fun . Actual

49:15

topic says discussing

49:18

right .

49:21

No , I think there's informity . I think he says

49:23

very clearly in all the cases of

49:26

possession , when you delve into it , there's

49:28

been something pretty

49:30

sinister and you know in

49:32

terms of which is covenants or making

49:34

a deal with the devil . And there's

49:37

a very clear choice at some stage in your life

49:39

where you've you've you've entered into

49:41

this or invited the demons in . And

49:43

I don't think he is here . He says in all the cases

49:46

, all the people may deny it to start with

49:48

, it eventually comes out when it's true

49:50

demonic possession , there's been an invitation

49:52

for that , for the devil , or

49:55

just want some kind of part with devil .

50:00

On the note of scary , I made the same mistake I made

50:02

a few months or a few weeks ago , when we were before

50:05

we had our last book club , where

50:08

I waited for everyone to go to bed and I

50:10

started washing the dishes and it was dark and

50:13

I listened to the audio version of the book and

50:15

I swear things were flying around the corner

50:18

of my eyes the whole time . I was , you know

50:20

, turning my head left and right , but

50:22

just me being an idiot . It's

50:25

a very easy solution to this Just don't do the dishes

50:27

. You're

50:30

you're ahead of your time , brian . This

50:32

is a don't . Don't hide

50:34

your wisdom under a bushel sitting on the hilltop

50:36

.

50:39

But then you make it a mellowny attack

50:41

if you take that advice . So perhaps that's not

50:43

good advice either .

50:45

It's fine . She's a willing sacrifice

50:47

, all

50:50

right . So

50:52

who's doing closing prayer ? Oh

50:56

, sweet Hilary .

51:01

Thank you , father , that we can

51:03

meet together , that

51:05

we can discuss all

51:08

these things together and

51:11

that we can further

51:14

our knowledge of you and

51:16

the world around us . I

51:21

pray that you'd be with each office

51:24

as we continue

51:26

in your world .

51:31

Amen .