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1:01

Carvana.

1:09

Even in my own family, I think there

1:12

are a lot of narratives around money

1:14

being something that is hard to get. And so you need

1:17

to be really cautious and safe

1:19

and strategic with how you spend it. And I

1:21

think that's a really strong and resilient

1:24

narrative, especially if you were raised in a poor

1:26

working class family like myself. But

1:28

as I got older and I was able to find more financial

1:30

stability, I was doing things like

1:33

letting my purse get to the point of the strap

1:35

coming undone and falling off my shoulder because it's falling

1:37

apart. Because I just wouldn't buy new things.

1:40

And I had friends that were like, girl,

1:42

why are you using things until they fall off your shoulders,

1:44

literally? And I'm like, well, I have this narrative

1:47

of

1:47

don't invest in things unless you absolutely need

1:49

it. Welcome

1:53

to Everyone's Talking Money Podcast.

1:55

I'm your host, Shauna Game. There's

1:58

no judgment, no dumb questions.

1:59

just smart conversations

2:02

about you and your money. So come

2:04

on in and grab a seat. Everyone

2:06

is welcome here.

2:12

If you've ever seen a movie, read a book

2:14

or listened to a song, you know how important

2:16

stories are. Stories are

2:19

what root you in life and give you a lot of context

2:21

to who you are and what you do. On

2:23

this show, we talk a lot about the idea of your money

2:26

story. Think of your money story

2:28

as like a collection of how you were raised,

2:31

your views towards money, your beliefs and

2:33

all those things that have happened to you related to

2:35

money. You see your money story,

2:37

it holds great power over your relationship

2:40

with money. And really, I think

2:42

understanding your story is vital to you being able

2:44

to live the life you wanna live. Our guest,

2:46

Christina Blackin, knows a little something

2:48

about money stories herself. She's

2:51

a public speaker, performer and founder of

2:53

the new QO, a leadership development

2:56

and inclusion consultancy, helping

2:58

leaders create inclusive culture

3:01

and organizational change through what she calls

3:04

narrative intelligence. Christina

3:06

says, when you think about money,

3:08

what are the negative ideas or beliefs that

3:11

pop up?

3:12

And when you start to list those out, you

3:14

can surprise yourself with, wow,

3:16

I have a very specific narrative

3:18

around money and how it connects to my identity,

3:21

self-worth, lifestyle and the impact

3:24

I'm having in the world. In this

3:26

episode, Christina will guide you through questions

3:28

to help you unpack your narrative around money

3:30

and figure out if your money truly

3:32

lines up with your values so

3:34

you can ultimately rewrite and reclaim

3:37

your money story.

3:38

Let's start talking. Well, Christina,

3:40

I am so excited to have you join

3:43

us on the podcast today. We've got a lot to

3:45

talk about. Thanks for being here.

3:47

Thank you for having me. I am over the moon

3:49

to talk about these things today. Nice.

3:52

Well, you know, just to kind of start

3:54

out, I guess this is a big place to start,

3:57

but our money stories

3:59

are...

3:59

I think typically rooted in negativity,

4:02

whether it's scarcity or

4:04

false beliefs or things that others

4:06

have told us, like, you know, you're

4:08

never going to make enough money or you're never going to be successful.

4:12

And one of the reasons we really wanted to have you on the show today

4:14

is talk about all of these things you're an expert

4:16

in really helping us understand our

4:18

stories and the narrative we tell ourselves

4:21

and then how that really impacts our

4:23

money stories from childhood

4:25

to

4:26

you know, where we are today. I'm also

4:28

excited to talk to you about this idea of

4:30

disrupting biases that we all have around

4:33

money and figuring out how we can build

4:35

a better relationship with ourselves. So to

4:37

kind of get started here, I want to talk

4:39

about something that you call narrative intelligence.

4:43

First, I want to understand, you know, what that is and then

4:45

and then how can we use narrative

4:48

intelligence to really help us understand our money

4:50

stories so that we can go

4:52

out and like really achieve our goals?

4:55

I love this question because anytime I bring

4:57

up the topic of narrative intelligence, whether it be a talk

5:00

or online, people go, what the hell is

5:02

that? And I'm like, you know, it's

5:04

something you use every single day. It's just we're

5:06

not really that conscious of it because we start using

5:09

narratives at the age of three to really understand how

5:11

the world works. And the term was coined,

5:13

I think, in like the 1950s or 60s

5:15

by AI researchers

5:16

and they were trying to discover how

5:18

do robots and algorithms organize information

5:21

and how can we get them to organize that information

5:23

like humans do, which is a narrative format.

5:26

So they were doing all these studies

5:27

and they realized that we have this unique capability

5:30

of attaching stories to the events

5:33

and things happening around us to create meaning,

5:35

to make decisions, to assess

5:37

if a situation is safe or not safe. So

5:40

our narrative intelligence is a tool that we can

5:42

use to think about the choices

5:44

we're making in the world, to connect with

5:46

each other, and even to change our own

5:48

behavior

5:48

over time. I think when it comes to money,

5:50

we learn a lot of narratives and stories

5:53

about who should receive

5:55

money, what does money mean, how we

5:57

keep it, how we hoard it, potentially

5:59

gain money, how is it going to essentially

6:03

affect someone else? And so I think our narrative

6:05

intelligence is the starting point of understanding

6:07

our relationship to money and

6:08

how it affects people when we're navigating

6:10

the world. What is it about

6:13

age three when we start narratives? Is that

6:15

just when our brain is kind of developed to the point

6:17

where we can understand narrative?

6:20

I think for a lot of people, it's probably

6:22

because we're finally getting the motor social

6:24

skills to be able to communicate. So

6:26

at three, we're starting to play around with, you've

6:29

probably had maybe a family member, a cousin, a niece

6:32

and nephew that's told a story that makes absolutely

6:34

no sense. They're like, the ball went over the tree. And

6:36

then the aliens came and you're like, that's cute. I don't

6:38

know what you're talking about. But I'm so glad

6:40

that you're discovering

6:42

this aspect of the human experience, which is

6:44

crafting narratives to explain the world

6:46

around us and to convey to someone else our

6:48

personal experiences and our lived experiences.

6:50

And so that's a really early age to

6:52

be catching on to that behavior. And

6:55

as we get older, we begin to either

6:58

lean into it pretty significantly. So people

7:00

who end up going into jobs

7:02

that have storytelling at the center are typically

7:04

advertisers, or entertainers

7:06

or writers. But even if you're not in a creative field,

7:09

use narrative every single day, whether it's to convince

7:11

somebody to eat their vegetables at dinner, or it's

7:14

to talk to a friend and convey to them

7:16

a fun experience you've had. We're constantly

7:18

using this tool even if we're not conscious of it.

7:22

I think that's really powerful. It makes me think about

7:24

a couple of things. One, I'm thinking

7:26

about how, you know, you

7:28

could grow up in a family with

7:30

siblings and you each have,

7:33

like, particularly if we're going to talk about money, we each have

7:35

a different narrative,

7:37

I guess, or view of how we

7:39

were raised or how our family talked about money.

7:41

And so somebody could have, you

7:44

know, some sort of money trauma or false belief.

7:46

And then the other sibling

7:48

just didn't pick up on that narrative at all.

7:50

Do you see that happen to where even in like family

7:53

units, because of narrative, like

7:55

we can see things from lots of different perspectives?

7:58

Oh, absolutely. Like even in my own family. I

8:00

think there are a lot of narratives around money

8:03

being something that is hard to get.

8:06

And so you need to be really cautious and

8:08

safe and strategic

8:09

with how you spend it. And I think

8:11

that's a

8:12

really strong and resilient narrative, especially

8:14

if you were raised in like a poor working class family

8:16

like myself. But as I got older,

8:18

and I was able to find more financial stability,

8:20

I was doing things like letting

8:22

my purse get to the point of the strap

8:24

coming in dead and falling off my shoulder because it's

8:26

falling apart, because I just wouldn't buy new things.

8:29

And I had friends that were like, girl,

8:31

you, why are you using things till

8:33

they fall off your shoulders literally? And I'm like, well,

8:35

I have this narrative of don't

8:37

invest in things unless you absolutely need it. And

8:39

so there was a scarcity mindset

8:41

that I had picked up. And on the flip side, I have

8:44

a sibling who,

8:45

when she gets money, because we didn't have a lot of it, she

8:47

spends it impulsively. And so that

8:49

scarcity of money is hard to get. My response

8:51

was, maybe I need to be overly

8:54

cautious in a point of

8:55

not taking care of

8:56

certain things for myself, because I felt like it

8:58

was a splurge or a luxury. And my sibling

9:01

was the opposite of, I don't know when I'm gonna get this again. So let

9:03

me make, while out and make it a fun experience

9:05

or, you know, use it while I can because it's fleeting.

9:08

So it's interesting that that scarcity narrative

9:11

affected us in different ways. And I think all

9:13

of us could probably go back to our early stories and

9:16

experiences and impact why do

9:18

I have the story about money? How true

9:20

is it? And how much of this is a

9:22

benefit to my current life? And how much is it

9:24

a detriment to my current life? And even this idea

9:27

of conflating our worth with money. Money is just a

9:29

tool. It's something that shaped our system.

9:31

And essentially, it's not a defining point, it

9:33

shouldn't be. But most of us have been given a lot

9:36

of narratives about how many defines who we are. And I

9:38

think it's important to separate those two as well. Yeah,

9:42

wow. I mean, definitely,

9:44

I would say in my 20s, I had that,

9:47

that false belief that my value was

9:49

equal to the size of my bank account. And

9:52

I

9:53

mean, I was spending money that

9:55

I didn't have, you know, just, I don't

9:57

know, make myself feel better or

9:59

Try to feel like I had some

10:02

sort of status and it took a long time

10:04

to really shake that out of

10:06

me And so I would imagine that

10:08

so many other people listening, you know

10:11

I can at least maybe as you're talking like tap

10:13

into something that Maybe

10:16

they haven't explored before or some false

10:18

belief they had and I think

10:20

For those of us listening like we're still very much

10:23

in our money story. So much of it

10:25

has been written But so much

10:27

of it is still totally unwritten

10:29

and that's I think the exciting part

10:32

So I'm curious like Christina. What

10:34

can what our money stories teach

10:36

us?

10:37

Even if maybe we're not happy

10:39

about where we're at

10:41

Well, one of the things I teach a lot

10:43

of you know, the work that I do around Leadership

10:46

and DEI and behavior change is

10:49

this concept of self inquiry and narrative

10:51

inquiry and it's the process of asking

10:53

yourself

10:54

Really introspective questions so you can

10:56

unpack the core belief that's driving your behavior

10:59

So I have the things I ask people to do is

11:01

to think about if they're going to try

11:04

a new thing or put a new idea Into

11:06

the world. What are the fears or the negative

11:08

thoughts that pop up? And this is a great

11:11

concept you can use with money when you think

11:13

about money What are the negative ideas

11:15

or beliefs or stories that immediately pop up? And

11:18

when you start to list those well You could surprise

11:20

yourself with while I have a very specific

11:23

sort of narrative around money and how

11:25

it connects to my identity Myself-worth

11:28

my lifestyle

11:29

the impact I'm having in the world so

11:31

that's the first step is you aren't conscious

11:33

of your stories until you actually place them down somewhere

11:35

and Note them and then you

11:37

can look at the ones that are limiting

11:39

or false and challenge them with

11:41

potentially new thoughts or new ideas so

11:44

for myself this idea of

11:46

Money is really hard to get and so

11:48

I need to suffer to be

11:49

able to One I

11:52

get it in any kind of way and to to spend it

11:55

I need to be suffering in some sort of way to justify

11:58

spending I had to

11:59

unpack that narrative and to realize

12:02

that the things I'm building in the world are valuable

12:05

and that being compensated for those

12:07

things in a capitalist system is the structure we have

12:09

right now. And if I want to make an impact,

12:12

how can I align my money with my

12:14

values? So the things I care about, the people

12:16

I care about, the impacts I want to have in the

12:18

world, how do I express that with the things I buy, the

12:20

things I make,

12:21

the things I say and do? And when I

12:23

started to do that process, it completely

12:26

restructured my career, the kind of business I'm

12:28

building, these sorts of relationships I'm

12:30

creating, the donations that I give, even

12:33

the ways that I vote, like all

12:35

those things were aligned with this scarcity

12:37

story and unpacking that

12:39

was a big part of it. So I think if you're able to do narrative

12:42

inquiry,

12:43

asking yourself those questions, you can

12:45

unveil the stories, challenge

12:47

the ones that don't make sense and start

12:49

to adopt new ones potentially that

12:51

can lead you to essentially closing what I call the values

12:54

gap because we all have values. And

12:56

many times people will claim certain

12:57

values, but then if you look at their life on paper, there's a huge

13:00

gap between what

13:00

they do, what they say, what they

13:02

make and what they believe. And

13:05

money, for example, is literally a tool. I

13:07

say it's a neutral tool like a hammer. You

13:09

could kill some of the hammer, you could build a house with

13:11

a hammer, you get to choose what you're doing

13:13

with that tool and money is the same way, how

13:15

you acquire it and the ways you require it, you could do

13:17

it in extremely destructive and harmful ways or

13:20

more impactful ways. And what you do with it,

13:22

where you spend it, you can literally

13:24

bludgeon somebody with it or you could do something

13:26

powerful and useful and nourishing

13:28

with it. So it's really those personal choices and

13:30

closing that values gap that's important.

13:33

And what you're really talking about is what

13:35

I believe

13:36

is taking back a sense of control. I

13:38

think for so many of us because money is the

13:41

number one stress and the

13:43

narratives that either we tell ourselves or

13:46

maybe somebody else has told us about

13:48

money. I

13:50

don't know, they cause money to be this even

13:53

bigger elephant in the room, this bigger taboo

13:56

topic. And so what you're saying by

13:58

going through this exercise and really think. thinking about

14:00

money this way is, I believe, right,

14:02

a sense of pride,

14:03

a sense of like taking back

14:06

some control.

14:08

Absolutely. Yeah, that sense of control is a big

14:10

part of it because, you know, and I

14:12

have to acknowledge that there are barriers in the

14:14

way depending on what kind of challenges

14:16

you have or privileges you might have that

14:18

create your money stories.

14:19

There are parts of my life I didn't have control

14:21

over,

14:21

and there were tragedies and

14:24

adversities my family experience that designated

14:27

the kind of money story that we had and the

14:29

class status that we had. And so unpacking

14:31

that and also separating my worth from that, something

14:33

that was not out of my control, was

14:36

a big part of my journey and experience of knowing

14:38

no matter what I'm able to acquire materially,

14:40

I'm still a valuable human. I still

14:43

have a way to be able to express what

14:45

I care about and build the things I care about, even

14:47

if I don't have certain privileges

14:50

or access to certain things. And

14:51

that's a really challenging path

14:53

because most individuals be like, well,

14:55

if I'm not born in a very specific way,

14:57

or not in a certain class bracket, it doesn't

14:59

matter. None of it matters. I have no control.

15:02

And so I teach a lot of people of, in

15:04

your limit of control, which might be maybe

15:06

two things of the 10 things in a day, what are

15:08

you doing with those two things you do control? And

15:11

are they getting you a little bit closer to closing

15:13

that values gap versus saying, I have

15:15

absolutely no control, I'm underpaid, I'm overworked,

15:18

and there's nothing I could possibly do about it. And

15:20

I know that some of that definitely is a systems

15:22

issue. And I think that conversation needs to happen

15:25

a lot when money conversations. But

15:27

outside of the systems issues we have, and those that

15:29

have to change, what are the small things

15:31

within your day to day that you can still have control over?

15:33

So for example, me building a business, I have a multiple

15:35

six figure business that I built on my

15:37

own, I didn't have

15:39

any kind of special windfall

15:41

of money from family, I didn't get a loan,

15:43

I didn't have VC backing, I just saved

15:46

up a significant portion of money, which I called my FU

15:48

fund, which was like 20 grand,

15:50

and I saved it up really

15:52

meticulously over time, over

15:54

a few years. And I was eking

15:57

it out by doing sort of like additional

15:59

small things.

15:59

things and work and consulting outside

16:02

of my full-time job. That was a privilege

16:04

in the sense of I don't have kids, I don't have kids now.

16:07

And I had the flexibility to be able to kind of

16:09

structure my own schedule. But I looked at my schedule

16:11

and I said, Well, if I only have 20 additional hours that I

16:13

have control over, what am I doing with them?

16:16

And how can that help me to get where I want to be? Even

16:19

if it takes me a couple of years, I'm still

16:21

going towards the goal that I care about, versus

16:24

feeling like I have to build a business

16:26

within a year and raise this much money through the VC

16:28

pipeline. All of that is just

16:30

one very particular path. And that doesn't mean

16:32

that's the only path of success. So

16:34

when people ask me, Well, how do I build a business and

16:36

become an entrepreneur? I'm like, it depends.

16:38

It depends on

16:40

what resources you have available right now, what problem

16:42

you're trying to solve. And ultimately,

16:44

the time available that you can eke

16:46

out, even if it takes you five or six years, it's

16:49

better to structure it that way than to give up

16:51

on something that you want to do because you can't

16:52

make it work overnight. And

16:55

that's really like a mindset shift,

16:57

right, to be able to take back control

16:59

of, like you said, the two things or maybe

17:02

the couple hours you have, and

17:04

use those to your benefit. You

17:08

know, I think we can all get just kind of locked

17:10

in our narrative, especially around money.

17:13

And like you said, there are a lot of systemic

17:16

issues around money that of course, those

17:18

are, you know, absolutely need

17:20

to be talked about and understood. But

17:23

then that that personal power that we have over

17:25

those that time or those couple of hours

17:27

or whatever it might be is so

17:30

powerful. Because,

17:31

you know, I talk about this often on our show

17:34

that money is about 90% mental,

17:38

and about, you know, 10% all

17:40

of the how tos, right, we can we can plug

17:42

that piece in. And so I can really

17:45

see how narrative is such a

17:47

big part of, of,

17:49

you know, the mindset piece and

17:51

what's what's going on in our heads. And we

17:53

talked about false beliefs,

17:55

and any kind of our stories growing

17:57

up, but

17:58

you know, what role do like biases

18:01

play in our money stories? Well,

18:04

especially in the business world, there's a number

18:06

of stories around what success should

18:08

look like. And one of them I

18:10

call the King Kong effect, which is this idea of

18:12

infinite growth. So any business needs

18:15

to grow infinitely to an astronomical

18:18

never ending size. And we prioritize

18:20

all of our goals as an organization

18:22

in a company around that. And the issue with

18:24

that is we have finite resources on our planet

18:26

in our ecosystem. There's plenty of evidence

18:28

and facts about that.

18:29

And getting big doesn't always mean good.

18:31

I mean, if you think about the metaphor

18:33

of cancer, cancer is an unfettered growth in the body.

18:36

It doesn't mean it's good. So that's one of the stories

18:39

that essentially puts people on a treadmill

18:41

with a never ending moving goalpost, which

18:43

is extremely demotivating

18:45

in terms of creating well being and meaning and all

18:47

these other factors that are important

18:49

for a human

18:50

flourishing life. So I think that's a

18:52

big one where people are like, if I'm not constantly

18:54

getting more money in some way, shape or form, especially

18:57

if I'm at the head of a company, a CEO,

19:00

a leader, I'm

19:01

not successful. When I talk

19:03

about this with a lot of my clients is this idea

19:05

of these holistic status quo

19:07

breaking goals, which look at not just

19:09

how big you are,

19:10

but what's your impact on people, what's your impact on

19:12

the planet? Those are just as important and exciting

19:15

and valuable, but we haven't placed

19:17

the same sort of value on those things that we have on

19:19

a

19:19

arbitrary number that's just bigger every

19:22

year. And I think that's one

19:23

of the biggest ones. And it's created a

19:25

lot of destruction and a lot of unhappiness. I

19:27

think there was the like a new happiness

19:30

indexes came out recently. It's evaluating

19:32

across, I think it's 70

19:34

countries or so sort of people's understanding

19:37

of meaning and their well being.

19:39

And there was a significant dip in the last, I

19:41

think, 15 years in people's

19:44

happiness and you know, ideas

19:46

of what it means. And if you think about

19:48

our exponential growth, when it comes to just

19:50

GDP, or

19:51

even, you know, profit,

19:54

that's been growing significantly in certain ways, but

19:56

it hasn't led to better well

19:58

being better health, health, health.

19:59

outcomes, more connected communities,

20:02

healthy relationships, all those other things that matter just

20:04

as much. The other element of

20:06

that

20:06

that I think is kind of the flip side of the King

20:08

Kong Effect narrative that most organizations

20:11

have, which in turn ends up

20:13

being personal goals for most people, is this

20:15

idea of zero sum games, which is, well,

20:18

we all can't win.

20:19

So there has to be a few winners and a ton of losers.

20:21

And the winners should reap most of the rewards

20:24

from this organization.

20:24

So that leads to

20:26

extreme hyper competition,

20:28

which is also detrimental to well being and collaboration

20:31

and innovation. So I talked to a lot

20:33

of my clients about how do we move away from hyper

20:35

competition and conformity and perfectionism,

20:38

and move into collaboration and experimentation,

20:42

and being open to

20:45

really understanding how we can set

20:47

new goals that are different. It's

20:49

scary to do something different. But right now

20:51

what we're doing is not working. It's not working on

20:54

a individual level. It's not working on a societal

20:56

level. And so there needs to be a paradigm

20:58

shift of what we

20:59

value, what we think success actually looks like,

21:01

especially with the goals that we set. And

21:03

when it comes to our careers, for better or for worse,

21:05

those dictate everything else that we're doing. Most people

21:07

spend a majority of their day

21:10

to day

21:10

right now in our modern society at work.

21:12

And so if your job is creating goals that mean nothing

21:15

to you, or creating goals that are not sustainable,

21:18

what kind of domino effect does that have in

21:20

the person's life and in their community? So

21:22

that's a big part of it is what are the new goals that we can

21:24

set?

21:25

And what are ways that we can, in our personal

21:27

lives, if we don't

21:28

have control over the organizational goals,

21:30

still sort of eke away from that

21:33

idea of everything has to get bigger infinitely

21:35

with the never ending goal. And we're in

21:37

a hyper competition

21:38

and can't trust each other. Those two things

21:40

make a pretty unhappy life. And

21:43

that's something that I've examined a lot with my work and

21:45

what I teach organizations in terms of leadership

21:48

structures and communication and goal setting.

21:53

Let

21:54

me introduce you to the prior version

21:57

of Shauna. A couple of years ago, I

21:59

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22:01

anxious, and really just worried

22:03

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22:06

with money, it just sucked. It

22:08

was not in a good place. And

22:10

this time in my life, it was hard on my

22:12

body too. I know I talked about it a lot

22:14

on the show. I wasn't sleeping well. I

22:16

was having panic moments. Everything

22:19

about my life at that time was just really,

22:22

really far from fun. I just, I

22:24

didn't want to live this way. And so I went searching

22:27

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22:29

meditation and the daily

22:31

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22:33

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22:36

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22:39

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22:43

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22:45

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22:47

recent faves were, I love this one.

22:50

I'm healthy and energetic. I

22:52

need that one like every day. So

22:54

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22:56

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22:59

to let go of negative thoughts and

23:01

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23:03

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23:05

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So, you know, how do we do this?

24:32

Like I'm thinking, you

24:33

know, we're coming towards the end of the year and

24:36

beginning of the year when everybody's thinking about

24:38

goals and different things they want to achieve. And

24:41

so many of those goals, whether

24:43

you run your own business or you work for a company, somehow

24:46

it's quantified

24:48

by money or, you know, something

24:51

I wanna buy or something, you

24:53

know, I wanna do with my money. But like, how

24:55

do we start placing value on

24:58

goals that

25:00

maybe there isn't, you know, a direct

25:02

monetary tie to?

25:04

I mean, I would argue that

25:06

mental health, taking better control of our mental

25:08

health does have a monetary tie, but

25:10

you know, something like that or having, you know,

25:13

some hobbies for ourselves. Or like, how do we

25:15

start to like rejig the system?

25:18

That's a really great question because that's one of the

25:20

things we struggle with is if we

25:22

are striving to something new, how

25:25

do we measure it and how do we place value on it?

25:27

And one of the biggest things I think about is

25:29

what kind of feedback are we collecting?

25:32

And with that feedback, how do we value it? So

25:34

for example, with some of the trainings that I do, I

25:37

collect feedback on content

25:39

moderation

25:40

and I'm teaching people how to deal

25:42

with contentious, high conflict

25:44

conversations, especially around race and gender

25:46

and class and sexuality in these online

25:48

spaces and teaching people how

25:50

to approach those conversations, deescalate them and

25:52

still build trust in relationships. And

25:54

so I get feedback on that experience and

25:57

it's eyeopening and really fulfilling to see.

25:59

people's change behaviors and

26:02

changed opinions and changed

26:04

beliefs from the experience. If I was

26:06

evaluating it solely just by money

26:08

or by however much it generated

26:11

in some other way,

26:11

I don't think it would feel as valuable.

26:14

And so placing

26:14

value on how people feel, their

26:17

perceptions of belonging and fairness and

26:19

respect, which we can evaluate through surveys,

26:22

feedback mechanisms is important. We

26:24

collect

26:24

that kind of data, but we don't value it. There's

26:26

sometimes where organizations will do cultural surveys,

26:28

for example. And they'll be like, that's cool

26:31

that, you know, people feel

26:33

neutral about feeling like

26:35

they're empowered and heard in meetings. But

26:37

that's a really valuable metric. If your organization

26:40

has 70% of people feel engaged

26:43

and heard and actually can share their ideas,

26:46

that has a domino effect on your innovation,

26:48

your problem solving, and your attention

26:51

of people staying and not quitting because the organization's

26:53

culture is healthy. So I think we have to

26:55

collect feedback and actually value that

26:57

feedback. And there are plenty of mechanisms

26:59

that exist for collecting

27:00

the feedback, but most people cast that aside

27:02

or they don't pay attention to it at all. The

27:05

other thing is looking at the,

27:07

what I call the ripple effect

27:09

of our choices and the consequences

27:11

of them. Because if you can reduce harm, that's

27:13

also a valuable goal as well. Like a lot of organizations

27:15

right now are really evaluating their,

27:18

you know, CO2 emissions and their impact on

27:20

the climate because of our really significant

27:23

shifting conversation around climate change and

27:25

wanting a planet

27:25

in a few decades. Like it'd be nice if the planet's

27:28

not spicy hot, you know, every day.

27:30

Like, I mean, right now it's November in New York City,

27:32

and it's 75 damn degrees. It's not supposed to be

27:34

this hot. It's felt nice, but I'm like,

27:37

this is not right, right? I'm like, this is definitely

27:39

not normal. And so being

27:41

able to say, wow, look at this reduction

27:43

in the harms from our production process

27:45

and our sustainability

27:46

plans, those things can

27:48

be valued. And there's a number of metrics

27:50

right now that exist, like B corporations, that's

27:52

one of the

27:54

ESGs in the investment world. But

27:56

we're still kind of murky in the sense of

27:59

people are

27:59

devaluing those things because

28:01

they've been taught that they're not valuable. So

28:03

until we have a consensus of people saying,

28:05

hey, us valuing the environmental

28:08

impact of a gold choice, us valuing

28:10

the well-being and health of our employees

28:12

and how they feel

28:13

and how they're compensated for their labor,

28:15

until we just look at those things and say, that

28:17

inherently is valuable on its own, we're

28:19

going to continue to have the same problems. And

28:22

I think more organizations are shifting to that because

28:24

they're saying a profit

28:25

first, profit only,

28:27

data quantified, whatever kind of

28:29

process is not working. And there's

28:32

tons of data, if you don't see

28:34

it,

28:35

like with first

28:36

hand, that proves that that structure

28:38

is filling us, like fantastically

28:41

filling us in ways that are not

28:43

some of it's not shocking. And some of it is very

28:45

shocking. So that's one thing I talk about

28:47

a lot is sort of,

28:49

there are ways that we can collect this information

28:51

and quantify it, but do we value it because

28:54

it's valuable inherently, and not just

28:56

because it's not

28:56

attached to our traditional status quo

28:59

of goals? Like my goals for my organization,

29:02

I've trained around say 11,000 people across nine

29:04

industries. And that's valuable. You know,

29:06

it's a quantified number. It's a

29:08

sort of number.

29:09

It's not bajillions of people. But

29:11

for me, I'm like, what is the actual feedback?

29:14

Am I getting a high level of positive feedback

29:17

about what people are learning? Am I seeing consistent

29:20

behavior change over time? Like those

29:22

things are more important to me than just the scale and

29:24

just the number of it. And so I have way

29:26

both of those things evenly. If I was scaling

29:28

to millions of people, but getting feedback

29:31

that this

29:32

isn't helpful, it's not useful, it's

29:34

destructive, then I wouldn't feel

29:35

successful, even if I was at 2 million

29:37

people trained. So that's the importance

29:39

is we get lots of different pieces of

29:41

data, we should weigh them all equally and not

29:44

weighed 90% in the size of it and 10%

29:46

and everything else.

29:48

Yeah. And another thing I wanted

29:50

to ask you about, you know, as we're talking

29:52

about goals and how we value

29:54

things is our habits

29:58

and really our subconscious kind of

29:59

unconscious mind. I mean, we know

30:02

that between I think it's the third trimester

30:04

in age seven, our subconscious is really formed.

30:07

That's also the time many

30:11

different scientific studies have shown that our money

30:13

personality is shaped during this time to

30:15

by age seven. But you know,

30:17

I don't remember a lot of my life pre

30:20

age seven, but to think that it has that

30:22

kind of impact is really substantial.

30:25

And you also share something on your website

30:28

that our unconscious habits drive

30:30

about 50% of our daily activities, which

30:32

I totally believe in. And I know I

30:34

do or think certain things throughout the day.

30:36

And I'm like, Gosh, why can't I change that? So I was wondering

30:41

if you could walk us through a little bit, like, how can we

30:43

begin to understand what

30:44

is happening in our subconscious

30:47

minds around money and

30:49

kind of the narrative that that we're,

30:51

you know, telling ourselves?

30:53

I love this question. First of all, I hadn't

30:55

heard or seen that study. That's crazy

30:57

that it's by seven years old. I know.

31:00

I'm trying to think like, what was I doing at that

31:02

time? I know I played Monopoly and I'm Monopoly

31:03

money. Maybe that shapes some of

31:05

the ways that I feel it then. I think,

31:08

you know, going back to that sort of narrative inquiry process,

31:11

it's really important to have

31:13

a self reflection

31:15

process that you do in some

31:17

sort of regular way. Because right now in

31:19

our society, we teach most people to be pretty

31:21

externally focused. So you're focused on,

31:24

you know, survival, doing your job, making

31:26

sure you eat food, you know, shower, exercise,

31:29

like all those things are important. But sitting

31:31

with some level of stillness,

31:34

even if it's 10 minutes of your day, to

31:36

reflect

31:37

is extremely important, because you can't tap

31:39

into your unconscious if you are constantly distracted

31:42

and busy. And most people

31:44

are extremely distracted

31:46

and busy and very externally focused.

31:49

And when they do get a chance

31:50

to sit with themselves, they're extremely uncomfortable.

31:53

Because they've been so detached from themselves for so long,

31:56

it is a very discomforting space to be

31:58

in. So that's the first step.

31:59

is even if you're only doing it once a week, and

32:02

you have a set

32:02

of questions that you reflect through, how

32:04

am I feeling?

32:06

You know, what are some of my core goals?

32:08

And what, why do these goals matter? Where did

32:10

it come from? When

32:11

did I first learn that? You know,

32:13

making sure I make extreme amount of money every single

32:15

year is important. Where did I learn that from? Do I value

32:18

that thing? Is it bringing me joy? Is it fulfilling

32:20

me in specific sort of ways? And even

32:22

if you do that, just even once a week

32:25

or once a month, you're going to get

32:27

much closer

32:27

to understanding the subconscious

32:29

that is driving your behavior. So for myself,

32:32

I knew one of my subconscious

32:33

ideas was this

32:35

idea of finding freedom and personal

32:37

creative choice, because I had very little freedom

32:39

and for a long period of my

32:41

life, I didn't get to choose a lot of things. And

32:44

so I was always like, Why am I motivated

32:46

to build this business or to have my

32:48

sort of own social or impact organization?

32:51

And am I getting closer to that?

32:53

Am I making the thing

32:54

that I value? And without

32:56

that reflection, I would have made certain career choices

32:58

or moved in a certain way in my life, but I

33:01

had to stop and process and

33:03

actually started that process of reflection. In

33:05

college, I had

33:06

a random career development class that

33:08

I took for like an additional credit,

33:10

I remember. And I didn't think it

33:12

was going to be that impactful. But we ended up doing a

33:14

ton

33:15

of self reflection exercises around career

33:17

and purpose, and our life paths.

33:20

And we made this portfolio of

33:22

reflective exercises that I still have to

33:24

this day. And sometimes I read. And that

33:27

was a completely radically life shifting

33:29

class, because I had to really sit and

33:31

think about myself and my values and what

33:33

I cared about. That wasn't from what my

33:35

parents have said, what whatever religious

33:37

institutions I've attended through life has said,

33:40

or what society told me I need to do is just

33:42

myself and hearing my own voice and perspective

33:44

was major. And

33:46

I probably wouldn't have even done that if I hadn't been in that

33:48

class. So I think being

33:50

able to take space and time, even if you don't write,

33:52

if

33:53

it's just meditation, or talking

33:55

through things with your therapist, whatever

33:58

your process might be, whether it's reading

34:00

interesting books that are about self-development

34:03

and growth and new ideas, you're

34:05

going to get closer and closer to understanding your subconscious

34:08

and shifting the parts that are in the way of the

34:10

life you want to live. Some of your subconscious

34:12

could be really great. Some of it could be, you know,

34:15

motivating and has helped you survive it to

34:17

this point. And some of your subconscious

34:20

might be things and narratives and stories

34:22

that are

34:23

dramatically holding you back from your fullest potential

34:26

or creating your highest impact. And so

34:28

self-reflection seems self-indulgent or

34:31

not productive. And in fact, it's one of the most powerful

34:32

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36:10

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, sometimes

36:12

it's hard work to kind of dig around there

36:15

in the weeds. But

36:17

I think it's just like the story you

36:19

were sharing, like it helps open up these places

36:22

inside of you and helps, I think,

36:24

your story really, really come to life.

36:28

We were talking a little bit earlier when you were sharing

36:30

a little bit about your money story. We

36:32

were talking about this idea of money scarcity. And

36:35

I believe that most of us operate in

36:37

some form of money scarcity. It's kind of

36:40

fed through us. It's the narrative that really

36:42

is told through stories, whether it's media

36:45

or families, whatever

36:47

it might be, right? There's this message

36:50

that we're always behind, right? We're never going to

36:52

have enough, whatever it might be. I think social

36:55

media really thrives on this. I'm

36:58

curious that we live in this very sort

37:00

of social society right now.

37:03

How do we get off a narrative like roller

37:06

coaster that

37:07

we know isn't true and

37:09

maybe create a new reality

37:11

for ourselves?

37:13

A big part of it is not waiting

37:15

for external validation,

37:17

which is hard, right? Because external validation

37:20

can confirm for us that we're valuable.

37:24

Especially if you build your own thing, putting a price on

37:26

a product is terrifying.

37:27

You're like, should I put it at this price point? Am

37:30

I a fool for doing this? I remember my

37:32

first service was a sort of story

37:34

consulting service.

37:35

And I went through so

37:37

many different activities trying to figure

37:39

out how to price it. I'm like, well, it's this many

37:42

hours I spent on it and this potential return if

37:44

they do it. I'm doing like all

37:46

this math. And I'm like, you know what, I'm just going to look at the market,

37:48

look at the average pricing and also realize and remember

37:51

the cyclical long-term impact

37:52

of this thing is valuable. It's not

37:54

just about the time I've spent. It's

37:57

the return that they will get beyond that with

37:59

this work. And so I had to reframe

38:01

my narrative around my own labor, because

38:03

especially in our system, we've been taught that our labor is

38:05

inherently

38:06

not valuable. And we learned through the pandemic,

38:08

essential workers, people who quote unquote have

38:10

service jobs or the lowest tiers of work as we pretend

38:13

to designate it, are extremely impactful

38:15

and useful. Every single

38:16

job in this structure is extremely

38:19

important. We don't always value it that way.

38:21

So I think reevaluating our

38:24

relationship to our labor and what it's worth and

38:26

the price points we put on that is extremely important.

38:29

And I started to do that with how I

38:31

priced my products. And even before

38:33

I went on my own as an entrepreneur, when I was working in the

38:35

corporate world, I went through a situation

38:37

where me and my teammates were sharing

38:39

our salaries, which I also think is a tip, share

38:42

your

38:42

salaries with your coworkers because the more insight

38:44

you have and transparency, the more likely

38:46

you can be paid fairly. So we were

38:48

just being curious. We all have the same damn job. We

38:51

pretty much worked the same hours. Where do you pay? What

38:53

am I paid? And we found out the person who was the least

38:55

senior on the team, who had the least experience

38:58

in the field, and the least experience

39:00

in our job is being paid the most. And

39:03

we happened also find out, you know, he was a man, et

39:05

cetera,

39:05

et cetera. There's lots of bias about compensation

39:07

and who's compensated in what ways. So I saw

39:09

that and I was like, oh, okay. So I'm being undervalued

39:12

and underpaid. So I'm gonna ask for more money. So

39:14

I essentially put together a presentation.

39:17

This is outside of my review period because they would do a

39:19

review every quarter.

39:19

And I was like, you know what? I'm

39:21

gonna make a case for the value I

39:23

bring to the organization and the continued value

39:26

I'll bring beyond this point. And so I had a

39:28

track record of the money I brought into the organization,

39:30

the new ideas that I had created, the

39:33

innovations that I had,

39:33

you know, displayed. So

39:35

I had some level of proof and also

39:38

showed them sort of the average pricing in the market

39:40

of the job and how I was at the lower

39:42

end of the bell curve. And my

39:45

boss, after I had showed him this presentation, was like,

39:47

you know, if you're gonna ask for raises, this is a damn good

39:49

way to do it. He was like, wow, I'm just, I'm

39:51

shocked. And I asked for a 20%

39:53

increase in my pay.

39:55

And which I was like, I may not

39:57

get this, but I have nothing to lose. A

39:59

few months later,

39:59

they gave me the full amount

40:01

I asked for. And

40:04

so you shouldn't have to do all of that. Again,

40:06

that shows you the bias in our systems. You shouldn't have to work this

40:08

hard to be paid, which you rightfully should be paid.

40:11

But the point is, we have to understand

40:14

that many times our labor is

40:16

undervalued, just in general. And

40:19

if it's undervalued, what can we do to

40:21

make sure we're being compensated fairly

40:23

if you're an employee. So whether

40:25

that's sharing information with your colleagues, whether

40:28

it's joining groups within your company

40:30

that are doing audits, making sure that pay is fair,

40:33

and it's consistent across the board,

40:36

those things can help you long term

40:37

because we tell people all these things about money. But

40:39

if you're not being paid fairly, there's only so much you

40:41

can do to move your money situation.

40:44

So we have to also be real about what are the barriers in

40:46

the way and which of these can we control and which of them can we

40:48

not. And then the other side of it is if

40:50

you are going to go off on your own and build your own thing, valuing

40:53

your labor and not feeling guilty about

40:56

charging appropriately and fairly for what you make,

40:59

especially a lot of women undercharge, or they'll

41:02

do a ton of work for a little return because

41:04

they feel like they have to prove something. And

41:06

then, you know, a significant portion of people

41:08

are

41:09

creating this kind

41:10

of loop where they can't get out of it

41:12

because they're chronically underpaid and

41:14

overworked even when they're making their own thing.

41:16

So it's important to structure that too.

41:18

What is the bare minimum of pay I need to make sure

41:21

I live and survive and I need to go beyond

41:23

that. Like most people who build a business, I

41:25

knew

41:25

what my hard costs were and how much money I

41:27

had to make to break even and

41:29

not be on the streets. A lot of people don't even

41:31

do that math. So

41:32

it's like do that math and at least charge

41:35

so that you can be over that.

41:37

So it is a survivable

41:39

thing that you're creating. So just

41:41

doing that basic math and valuing your own labor

41:43

and time is a huge

41:45

step in changing your money stories, especially

41:48

if you've been chronically overworked

41:50

and chronically underpaid. I

41:52

think it's really interesting you're talking about sharing salaries.

41:55

I think you're in New York. I think isn't there

41:57

a new law that's coming in?

42:00

or something like that where you're

42:02

required to share your salaries or employers

42:05

are required to share the salaries or something

42:07

they're trying to start some sort of transparency.

42:10

There's a new law essentially where if you list

42:12

a job, there has to be a specific

42:15

designation of at least the salary range for that

42:17

job. And there's a ton of research

42:19

that shows why that's really important. Instead

42:22

of being

42:23

clandestine and hidden behind

42:25

until you get to the very end of your interviews. And

42:28

then they tell you the amount

42:30

or range for the job and it's under what you need

42:32

or what you're wanting. It's a huge waste

42:35

of time for the employee and the employer.

42:37

So that takes away another layer of the sort

42:39

of vagueness that keeps people

42:41

stuck being underpaid and

42:43

overworked.

42:44

And that's one reason why they passed that law. So

42:46

if you are putting out a position, you should be honest

42:49

about how much that money is worth or

42:51

how much you're attaching to that position up front. Many

42:54

times organizations want that bill

42:56

of mystery

42:56

because they want to be able to say, so

42:59

for example, there's a ton of research,

43:01

especially if you're chronically underpaid, that

43:03

if you go into a new position that might off

43:06

of just principal start at 60 grand

43:09

or something for example, but if you come

43:11

in and you've been paid 40 grand for the last 10 years

43:13

because you've been, you know, unfortunately,

43:16

maligned or there's glass ceilings or whatever,

43:19

you might go into that position. They're going to ask you, well,

43:21

what are you expecting for this job? And

43:24

if you don't have the knowledge and insight to

43:25

know that that job should start at 60, you

43:27

might say, oh, 45. And they're like, great, we

43:29

were planning on paying you 60, but here's your 45. So

43:32

that happens all of the time in the workplace

43:34

where they're like, it's not about paying you fairly.

43:37

It's about paying you

43:38

as little as possible. And with a law

43:40

like this, they have to be upfront and say, hey,

43:42

this job starts at 60 grand and it has

43:44

a range until 75 and we'll

43:46

negotiate and talk about it. So I'm

43:49

excited about that law. I think it's going to put

43:51

a lot more accountability on organizations

43:53

to fairly compensate people instead

43:56

of nickling and diming people and trying to pay the least amount

43:58

possible for people's labor, which

43:59

people trapped in a cycle

44:01

of poverty, quite honestly. So

44:03

that's one reason why they passed it. I think there's another

44:06

initiative that other states are also probably

44:08

going to adapt as well.

44:10

I hope so. Yeah, I mean, I think

44:12

it's, it's very powerful and why

44:15

it didn't exist before. I mean, I know why, but I'm

44:18

really happy that that is changing. And

44:20

hopefully it is that ripple effect. And I think,

44:22

you know, as we're talking today, we're talking

44:25

about this idea of narrative and sharing stories

44:27

and really opening up about money and

44:29

exploring things and having these conversations.

44:32

That's certainly something we're committed to on

44:34

this show is talking about money through all sorts

44:36

of lenses and really having, you

44:39

know, inclusive conversations. You know,

44:41

why do you think for everyone listening, why

44:43

do you think it's important, especially with money, that

44:46

we have these conversations and we share

44:49

our narratives?

44:50

I think it's so important because we

44:52

live in a money system that's literally

44:54

can be life or death, depending on how

44:56

much access you do have to money. I mean, everything

44:59

right now, if you need shelter, food,

45:01

water,

45:02

basic education, healthcare,

45:05

money is attached to it. And if you don't

45:07

have access to it, it can be extremely detrimental

45:09

to your life. There was a story that came out that said,

45:11

if you're born into poverty, it takes 20 years of never

45:14

having any kind of

45:15

accident or mistake to get out of it 20 years. And

45:18

that's if you're lucky. And so

45:20

I think as having honest conversations

45:22

about how much we've

45:23

tied basic human rights and livelihood

45:26

to money and how much that affects us

45:29

as a whole, as a community is important. And

45:31

also because we're a social species

45:33

that are inherently dependent on each

45:36

other for survival, we need to understand

45:37

how our money beliefs and choices affect each

45:40

other. Because even the most hyper

45:42

independent, off the grid person,

45:44

probably depend on a human

45:46

in some way for something, whether it was

45:48

the light bulb that they have in their house, which was invented by

45:50

another human in the past, or if you

45:52

have a cell phone that was built by 30, 40 different

45:54

hands across the globe globally

45:57

before you got it, there is not a human being

45:59

on this planet that

45:59

that doesn't have an effect on another human being. And

46:02

so sharing our stories openly allows us to have

46:04

a more clear picture and understanding of

46:07

how we affect each other. And if we're

46:09

going to change our systems and make

46:11

it so that human flourishing is a

46:14

standard and not a privilege

46:16

or a nice to have, then these stories

46:18

and shifting

46:19

them can help us to get there.

46:22

Well, we've talked about a ton today,

46:24

Christina. Thank you for sharing so

46:26

much of your wisdom. Just to kind of wrap up.

46:28

So no matter where we are in our journey,

46:30

our story, our narrative around money, how

46:33

can we use what we've learned

46:35

today to maybe

46:37

start to

46:40

tell a different story, to write a different narrative,

46:42

and to really create change in our

46:44

lives going forward? The

46:46

first is to get clear on your personal values

46:49

and then really think through how your money expresses

46:52

those things. So if you have values

46:54

around community or creativity or

46:57

growth or resilience or whatever those things are,

47:00

does your money express that? Are

47:02

the choices that you're making with the type

47:04

of work that you do, the things that you

47:06

buy and consume, do they line up with

47:09

the things that you most care about?

47:11

Because a fulfilled life is a values-driven

47:14

one. And if you're not clear of your values, there

47:16

are subconscious values that are driving you, whether it's

47:18

fear or anxiety or scarcity,

47:21

those are values as well. So I think that's

47:23

a big thing is we can't rewrite our story if we're not clear

47:25

on what the original story even is. So

47:27

getting clear on it through reflection, asking

47:30

yourself good questions, and then starting

47:32

to realign your actions to express your

47:34

values in a real way is

47:36

a huge thing that can have a massive

47:39

impact not only on your own life, but other people's

47:41

lives as well.

47:42

I'm not sure I can find one single

47:44

takeaway from this episode. There were

47:46

so many powerful ideas, questions,

47:48

and thoughts that Christina posed. It

47:50

was pretty powerful. I think of anything,

47:53

talking with Christina really reminded me just

47:55

how important it is to always make sure that your

47:57

money decisions line up with your values.

48:00

And to know that you have power of choice and control

48:03

over what you do with your money I hope

48:05

you've also just been encouraged to do a deep dive

48:08

into your own narratives around money After

48:10

listening to this episode if

48:12

you want to connect with Christina You can find her at our website

48:15

the new quo calm You can check

48:17

out our podcast to sway them with color on

48:19

any podcast player and you can

48:22

read a free paper on narrative intelligence

48:24

at BIT L y slash

48:27

new quo paper if you

48:29

enjoyed this episode do me a favor share with a

48:31

friend or family member someone who you know Also

48:34

is ready to rewrite and reclaim their

48:36

money stories as always You can head

48:38

to the show notes for all the links to our episode

48:40

guests and the amazing sponsors that make

48:42

this show possible I'll see you back

48:44

here in a few days for a brand new episode

48:52

Hmm doesn't

48:54

that sound refreshing why

48:56

not take it up a notch and make it a Duncan refresher

49:00

If you're a Duncan rewards member, you can get a $3 medium

49:03

Duncan refresher every day all month

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long That's a lot of refreshment and

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it's pretty Refreshing not

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a member join on the Duncan app Duncan

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rewards save them stack them use them

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America runs on Duncan limit one

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per member per day additional charges and terms may

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vary limited time

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49:23

Welcome to the I can't sleep

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