0:03

The paradox of this is that my job is not

0:05

to be the expert. You know , as a coach, my job

0:07

is to help you tap into your own expertise.

0:10

So this

0:12

is my challenge, right? Hello,

0:18

it's Simon and today's guests

0:20

on just about coping is Tony

0:22

Piper. Tony is a stress and burnout

0:24

coach who first reached out

0:27

to me on social media when I wrote

0:29

an article about avoiding some

0:31

of burnout and he

0:34

took me to task a bit saying good article,

0:36

but you forgotten

0:38

one key point, which is to make sure that

0:41

workplaces are doing everything they can

0:43

to remove the causes of burnout in

0:45

the first place. So I'm delighted

0:47

that Tony's here. We talked about burnout,

0:50

we talked about stress, we talked about

0:52

self care, and if

0:54

you're interested in those things, I'm sure you're going to

0:56

enjoy listening to this conversation with [inaudible]

0:58

.

1:02

[inaudible]

1:02

so do you want to just tell me a bit about

1:05

who you are and how you came to be a person

1:07

who likes talking about Ben?

1:09

Well, it's nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me Simon. So

1:12

I'm a coach , um, before I became

1:14

a coach, I had a 27 year

1:16

career in the it industry. Uh, but

1:18

I was always much more interested in the people

1:20

side of things as much as the tech. And

1:24

over the years I had , uh , my

1:26

own experiences or things that I

1:28

would later come to understand to be

1:30

certainly on the road to burnout if

1:32

not total burnout. And

1:37

what I realized as I transitioned

1:39

into being a coach is that this

1:42

can be quite a , um, common

1:45

journey for a lot of people, especially people

1:47

who are high achievers, especially people

1:49

who are maybe

1:52

, um, promoted quite

1:54

rapidly at a young age.

1:56

And that was a lot of my story. Um,

1:59

maybe people who have quite a

2:01

caring disposition, there are all sorts

2:03

of factors that can combine and mean the,

2:05

in some situations you can

2:07

be quite prone to this. And

2:11

I suppose this is one of those law of attraction things

2:13

is that once you start thinking about this,

2:15

then you start meeting people who are in this situation.

2:18

And I find myself working with people who

2:20

are going through this. At the moment.

2:22

And so , um , the world health

2:25

organization , um , defined burnout

2:27

as an occupational phenomenon earlier

2:30

this year and what they have described

2:33

as just so that we're really clear what we're

2:35

talking about is a syndrome which

2:37

is conceptualized as resulting from

2:40

chronic workplace stress that

2:42

has not been successfully managed. Talk

2:44

about three dimension . So

2:46

feelings of energy depletion or exhaustion,

2:50

increased mental distance from one's

2:52

job or feelings of negativism

2:54

or cynicism related to one's job and

2:56

reduced professional efficacy.

2:59

And then they talk about burnout, referring specifically

3:02

to phenomena in the occupational context

3:04

and should not be applied to describe experiences

3:07

in other areas of, of life.

3:10

And so I think it's just

3:13

really important because so often,

3:15

yeah, we will talk about feeling burnt

3:17

out and yet, yeah.

3:20

Were we in this context, at least

3:22

talking about it in a very specific sort

3:24

of context. So if you were

3:26

to just reflect a bit about

3:30

what it is that

3:32

you, so you've talked about the types of

3:34

people that you've seen, but

3:36

what is it that, that in

3:39

your experience leads to

3:41

people , uh, you know, getting

3:43

that sense of burnout? Is it you know,

3:46

too much to do? Too much on the to

3:48

do list? Is it that the work is

3:50

as outside the technical skills? Are there

3:52

particular things which you , you, you,

3:55

you experience lead to, to

3:57

burn out or is it

3:59

more random than that? Well, the clue to that

4:01

is in a chronic unmanaged

4:04

stress, which is in that definition you just

4:06

read out and those stresses could

4:08

be all sorts of things. You've already named

4:10

some of them, so it could be about workload. You

4:12

know , if you're working 18 hour days for

4:14

a long period of time, you're going to get physically

4:17

exhausted, right? If

4:19

you're doing work that is boring,

4:23

what's going to happen to you if you are being managed

4:25

in a way that's not right for you, which is too much

4:27

management or too little management, what's

4:30

going to happen to you? What happens

4:32

if you fall out of alignment with the values

4:34

of your organization? Maybe

4:36

they've changed over the years. Maybe there's been a

4:39

merger and acquisition situation where

4:41

all of a sudden a new culture has come in and you're suddenly,

4:44

this isn't the company I used to work for. Um,

4:47

often it can be a perfect storm. And the interesting

4:49

thing about the who definition is they talk

4:52

about workplace stress. In

4:54

my experience as a coach, what I'm finding

4:56

is that often

4:59

it's workplace stress coinciding

5:01

with other stress. Okay? Okay.

5:04

Now the challenge for employers of

5:06

course, is that you don't necessarily know what's going

5:08

on outside the workplace. You

5:10

don't know if somebody is, for

5:13

example, caring for a relative and

5:16

normally they can manage that and they've got flexible

5:18

working and you know,

5:20

they're managing to, you know , keep that going.

5:23

But then what happens when that relative goes into

5:25

hospital, for example?

5:27

And as an employer, you may know about it,

5:29

you may not know about it, and

5:32

meanwhile it's a month

5:34

end or there's a surprise unannounced

5:36

audit team arriving or Offstead

5:38

inspection or whatever it could be.

5:41

And often these things all come together.

5:43

And that could be the final thing , uh

5:46

, that tips you into , uh,

5:48

towards the end stages of burnout. But

5:51

it's important to say that burnout is a gradual journey.

5:54

Uh , the flame doesn't suddenly go out, it

5:56

sort flickers and dins yeah

5:59

, yeah. But it does eventually go

6:01

out. So just

6:04

tell us what does burnout

6:06

look like? How'd you know it's happening? Well,

6:09

it's this gradual journey of

6:11

physical and emotional exhaustion of

6:15

, um, cynicism about

6:17

work and

6:19

about , um,

6:21

a lack of sort of achievement , um,

6:24

sort of ineffectiveness . Maybe

6:27

it's those, those three things that are in that world

6:30

health organization definition. So to unpack

6:32

those a little bit more , uh , physical

6:34

and emotional exhaustion. I mean, physical exhaustion,

6:37

we know when we're tired. Um,

6:40

but it could be other things like, you know,

6:42

ongoing headaches or

6:45

stomach trouble or,

6:47

you know, maybe blurry vision or

6:49

can't concentrate and focus.

6:52

Uh, we might be emotionally

6:54

, uh, up and down. We might

6:56

be , um , more

6:58

sad than we usually are, or , um,

7:02

all sorts of, all sorts of other, I mean, people that

7:04

respond emotionally to stress in all sorts of ways.

7:06

Some people almost get quite sort

7:08

of , uh, uh,

7:10

high on it almost. I've seen this [inaudible]

7:13

which is an interesting response. Um,

7:16

but you'll know when you

7:18

know, physically and emotionally things are off, I

7:20

think is the safest thing to say. All

7:23

right . And then , uh , the next

7:25

one is, is about cynicism

7:28

and about how'd you feel about your job? Are

7:30

you achieving anything? And if you do

7:32

achieve it, is it valuable? Um,

7:35

what's the point? You know, these kinds

7:37

of questions start to come up and

7:40

why am I bothering to do this?

7:42

Uh, and you know, am I making a difference

7:44

which sort of touches on the values stuff,

7:47

you know, am I, am I actually doing work that's

7:49

important to me? Am I connected to work

7:52

that's important to me? And

7:54

then finding the, the, the performance

7:56

piece or , you know, am I getting stuff

7:58

done? Am I doing it to the right standard?

8:01

Um, have people

8:04

noticed whether I am or am

8:06

not doing that right? So

8:08

there are those three groups and that's in the world health definition.

8:12

Um, there are four questions I think you can ask

8:14

yourself on a regular basis. The

8:16

first one is how

8:19

well am I sleeping? Am I

8:21

getting to sleep quickly and not

8:24

because maybe I've had half a bottle of wine

8:26

or some sleeping tablets or anything

8:28

else. And once I get asleep

8:30

in my staying asleep during

8:33

the night or my waking up in the

8:35

middle of the night worrying about stuff that's going on. So

8:37

that's the first one. Second one

8:39

is how do I feel when I wake up? Am

8:42

I refreshed? Am I excited about

8:44

the day ahead or is it something else?

8:48

Third one leaving work. Am

8:50

I switching off but

8:52

a physical in terms of my apps?

8:54

Am I looking at my notifications and email

8:56

and all the rest of it or , you know , mentally

8:58

am I turning things around in my head, you know,

9:01

and thinking about what's, what's just happened

9:03

in the day. Uh , in a way that's kind of ruminating

9:05

rather than reflecting, or am

9:07

I worrying about this stuff I haven't done or am

9:10

I , you know , worrying about, you

9:12

know, an email that's going to come in from the East

9:14

coast team in the

9:16

middle of the evening and somebody's going to want an answer because we are a

9:18

global company and, you know,

9:20

that's kind of expected of me. Um

9:22

, so I used switching off , uh,

9:25

and then the final one is just about how am I

9:27

with my relationships? Am I getting irritated

9:30

with people , uh , or

9:32

am I withdrawing from people? They're the two

9:35

classic signs of that. So

9:37

you can ask yourself those four questions on a

9:39

regular basis and you

9:42

know, the how, if you want

9:44

to add to that, you know, how do I feel on Sunday

9:46

evening? Am I looking forward to the week ahead or why got

9:48

this sort of Sunday night blues? And

9:51

you know, if this is going on for a while,

9:53

then the chances are there's something you need to do

9:55

about this. Yeah .

9:57

Yeah. It's interesting. You just reminded

9:59

me, I did a commencement speech

10:01

at my , um, uh, Cardiff

10:03

university graduation ceremony last

10:05

year. And this , you know , life isn't always

10:07

up, but if it's, it feel

10:09

, if it's down, you know a

10:12

lot , then what are the changes that need to

10:14

be making. And it's, you know, if, if

10:16

one Sunday doesn't feel great, fine, but

10:18

if seven Sundays in a row don't feel great,

10:20

then there's different.

10:22

Yeah. This is the, this is the chronic word in

10:24

that who definition is about

10:26

something that's gone on for a period of time? Cause

10:29

you say there will be fluctuations. Yeah. Yeah.

10:33

There's an end stage of burnout where,

10:36

you know, the flame does go out and

10:40

for many people it can feel like

10:42

a very strange absence of stuff

10:45

going on in their head. A lot

10:47

of the times we're more anxious and stressed about work.

10:49

We have these voices in our head telling us about all the things

10:51

that we have or haven't done and how well it didn't

10:53

go. And the problem

10:55

with that person and, Oh , if only this and

10:58

all this internal dialogue that goes on.

11:00

And one of the things about burnout is that all

11:03

of that just stops and

11:05

you're absolutely numb and there's nothing

11:07

going on. And

11:09

when you wake up in the morning, you don't even

11:11

dread work because you're not even

11:13

thinking about anything and you just can't

11:15

get up. And if you do get

11:18

up, you're not going to get anything done.

11:20

It's this very strange state

11:23

and I always think with a lot of these , um

11:26

, responses to stress is

11:28

helpful to think about. This

11:30

is the body's way of telling you you

11:32

need to do something. Yeah . Right.

11:34

Yeah . And burn

11:37

out like some of the other consequences

11:39

of stress might be talked about , um , you

11:42

know, heart disease and this kind of thing. This

11:44

is your body really getting quite

11:46

serious about this now. And it's like, if you're not going

11:49

to do anything about this, I'm going to stop

11:51

you even getting out of bed. This

11:53

is the ultimate, right ?

11:54

Nope. Which is what Ruby

11:56

, uh , in the first episode described, as

11:58

you know, our bodies are onesy. We often think of

12:00

our brain in our bodies as separate, but actually

12:02

we've got, you know , this one's E which is

12:04

going on. And , and of course, you know that

12:07

, uh, the, the asking

12:09

ourselves the questions , um, and

12:11

we , um, have a , a weekly checkups

12:14

of questions on , um, MHR

12:16

FFA , England's , um , website is about

12:18

trying to ensure that we , um , can

12:20

notice and get help, get support,

12:23

take action before that stage. But

12:25

clearly , um, you know, it's really

12:28

, um, vital that people

12:30

, uh , absolutely do get that help

12:32

and support at the point that burnout does

12:35

happen. And

12:35

well , this is why all of this is so important because

12:38

this is the end result. This is what

12:40

happens if you don't. Yeah, absolutely.

12:44

So you're in bed, you're lying there, you

12:46

can't get up. You know , my, my,

12:48

my phrase I think I would use at that

12:50

point is that you just want the world to do one, you

12:52

know, is a , you know, what, what, what

12:55

happens? What, what advice

12:57

would, would we be giving? What F what

12:59

, what should people be thinking about?

13:02

Well, the first thing you need to do is

13:04

get some rest. And

13:07

you know, that might be a week

13:09

or so of bed rest . It could be,

13:11

it could be that you need to go on holiday and

13:13

if you're one of these people that doesn't take your holiday allowance,

13:15

this is your time to correct

13:18

that and get some time out

13:21

of the situation. And hopefully you have

13:23

an employer who's understanding and

13:25

you can talk to them about this. Um,

13:28

if not, you might need to see a GP

13:31

and your GP is going to be wanting

13:33

to know about the things

13:35

that led up to this just in case there's other things

13:37

going on as well. Um,

13:39

so I think it's probably good practice to talk

13:41

to a GP about this once

13:46

you've started to rest and recharge

13:50

on the basis that you are able to do that.

13:53

The next thing you need to do is to identify the

13:55

source of your stress and

13:59

think about everything going on in your life. As

14:01

I said before, this is often a , a perfect

14:03

storm of workplace and personal

14:05

stress that's going on. So it

14:07

might be that on their, on by

14:10

themselves, those sources of stressor

14:13

are manageable, but it's the way they've come together.

14:15

And then you're going to need to put some work

14:18

in to figure out whether you can

14:20

eliminate those sources of stress or whether you can

14:23

respond to them in different ways. You

14:25

know, it could be that some simple

14:28

workplace adjustments , uh

14:30

, or some stronger boundaries about timekeeping

14:32

and making sure you're going home and switching off. Um,

14:35

could be the thing that helps you. But it might

14:37

be that , uh , there's

14:39

something about your role that needs to change. Maybe

14:42

you've been, you know, covering for other people.

14:44

And you know, that's the, the article that

14:46

brought us together in the first place around some of the

14:48

, that where you're covering for people. Um,

14:51

it might be that's been going on for a bit too long.

14:54

It might be that your , uh,

14:56

manager is also burning out and

14:59

they've been pushing everything onto you because they can't

15:01

cope with it and you know,

15:03

guess what that's going to affect you. It

15:06

might be that. So

15:08

,

15:09

so I guess just to, sorry

15:11

to interrupt on that. So it feels like what

15:13

you're really saying is it's that

15:16

deep reflection on

15:18

where what, and

15:21

then trying to work out how to,

15:23

how to eliminate to manage and

15:25

to,

15:27

and it , and it might be that you can

15:29

do that yourself or it might be,

15:31

it's easier to talk through somebody else.

15:34

Yeah . And it doesn't have to necessarily be somebody

15:36

who's an expert in this. It's just somebody

15:38

who can listen and ask the questions. Yeah.

15:40

Yeah. And, and, and

15:43

yeah, as with all these situations, you know , the

15:45

most important thing is never thinking

15:47

that you're alone and never thinking you have to do

15:49

these things on, on , on your own. And

15:51

that talking, helping,

15:54

asking for help is absolutely the bravest

15:56

and the best thing to do in all of these situations.

15:59

Yeah . In

16:02

your role as a coach

16:04

where you've been , um, working with people,

16:06

you will obviously have seen the good, the bad

16:08

and the ugly. Um , and it's

16:11

often easier to talk about

16:13

when things go wrong, but are there

16:15

examples that you can draw

16:18

on where you think about where

16:21

managers, organizations,

16:23

HR, whoever , um, managed

16:26

to get it to get it right, either

16:28

to prevent the burnout in the first place

16:30

or , uh, to ensure

16:32

that somebody was adequately supported through

16:35

the process of recovery?

16:37

Okay. So preventing burnout

16:40

is all about , uh , managing,

16:43

identifying a manager, managing the sources of

16:45

stress. Okay. So that could

16:47

be a learning to cope with those

16:49

sources of stress differently or ideally

16:51

removing them altogether . Some things you can

16:53

remove, some things you can't. And

16:56

organizations that have managers

17:00

who are well trained at

17:03

, uh , really checking in with their

17:05

employees. Uh , maybe there are

17:07

also organizations that are really

17:09

paying attention to employee engagement.

17:12

Uh , maybe they're organizations that see the need for

17:15

mental health first aid practitioners. Um

17:17

, these are all organizations that are more

17:19

likely to be having the kind of conversation

17:22

about how an employee

17:24

is feeling about , uh , showing up at work

17:27

and how they're doing, what needs to change,

17:29

if anything, and so on and so forth.

17:32

Okay.

17:32

Yeah. Yeah. And, and,

17:35

and if you were to,

17:38

you know , the corroboree of that, think about

17:41

just be really explicit where

17:43

organizations are not

17:46

, uh, not addressing

17:48

the factors burnout or not noticing

17:50

when people are being stressful. Are there

17:53

any sort of real , um,

17:57

uh, key things which, which

17:59

organizations are failing to do in those

18:01

moments? I mean , it's , it's , it's a slightly obvious

18:03

question. They're failing to know stress. They're failing to

18:05

remove the stressors , but are there, are there any

18:07

sort of insights which you've got through the process

18:09

in which you can, you can think about that.

18:12

Well, I had one yesterday that came up and that was

18:14

about, now we're getting to the

18:16

end of the year. And I was thinking about people

18:19

who, and I'd had my own experience of this,

18:21

where people can carry forward or

18:23

cash in their holiday entitlement. Okay.

18:27

That's quite a big red flag because it says

18:29

you've not taken time off. Now, there

18:31

might be good reason for that. Maybe

18:33

you're saving for a big trip to the other side

18:35

of the world, but it might be that

18:37

you felt unable to take that time off

18:40

because you've, there's a culture of , uh

18:43

, sort of present

18:45

tears ism , uh , where you have to be

18:47

at work and be seen to be arriving at work

18:49

before , uh, your line manager

18:51

and leading afterwards. And

18:54

that if you take time off, then maybe

18:56

that would be perceived as a sign of not

18:58

coping or, you know, back to this quote unquote

19:01

bravery thing. But,

19:03

you know, there can be these cultures

19:05

that just reward people for working

19:08

very, very long hours. And

19:11

ultimately that's going to unravel. I

19:13

do some work with people in consultancy

19:17

and you know, they're all famous

19:19

for , uh, working very,

19:21

very long hours, often , uh, away

19:23

from home for long stints

19:26

on very challenging

19:29

projects , uh,

19:31

without the right amount of self care.

19:34

They are quite dangerous places to work.

19:37

And so we'll come back

19:39

to , um, self care , uh

19:42

, a bit. Um, uh,

19:44

in, in a moment, but I guess , um

19:47

, just be , um, really

19:49

interesting to just talk

19:51

about, you know, holidays and

19:53

, uh, the importance

19:56

of , uh, people taking

19:58

holidays. And one of the things which

20:00

I know from personal experience is

20:03

, um, that you can either

20:05

go on holiday and property , go on holiday where

20:07

you turn the phone off and you don't do anything or

20:09

you can go on holiday and you're basically still at

20:11

work, just not , um , in the office.

20:14

Um , if you were thinking about , uh, your,

20:17

your clients, clearly we

20:19

as employers have responsibilities,

20:22

but also as, as

20:24

people, as employees, we also

20:26

have our own responsibilities

20:28

to turn off our phones and et cetera

20:30

. Yeah. Are there, are there ways

20:33

that , uh, people that

20:35

you've worked with have coached themselves

20:37

away from their phones, coach

20:40

themselves away from checking , uh

20:42

, the emails and, and really recognize

20:44

that life can go on? Uh , you

20:46

know , being connected into work

20:49

while it's taking time out.

20:50

Certainly there are some organizations

20:53

where, for example, you have to have, you know, a work

20:55

phone and a private phone and

20:57

you can't access work email on your private

21:00

phone and for as much of a pain

21:02

that that can be in carrying two phones around

21:04

and keeping them charged and everything else, it does

21:07

mean that you can give your work

21:09

phone to your manager , uh , the

21:12

day before you go on holiday. And some

21:14

organizations I know will turn

21:16

off access to email for

21:19

people who are going on holiday, which

21:21

I think is a really progressive thing. Um,

21:24

some organizations , uh,

21:27

will have a culture where it's

21:31

definitely frowned upon

21:33

to send messages to people

21:35

who, you know, to be on holiday and do something

21:37

that, you know, you can

21:40

expect to get some feedback on if you do it. Now, of course

21:43

with automated emails for groups

21:45

and all the rest of it that can be hard to avoid. But certainly

21:47

creating a culture where , um,

21:50

I didn't want to disturb you on holiday so I'm not

21:52

going to , uh , is a lot more

21:54

than what I'm going to send it and know that

21:56

you'll come back to an inbox of, you know, 500

21:59

emails. Yeah. Yeah. So

22:01

there's things we can do for each other as colleagues,

22:03

let alone as managers to

22:05

make it easier

22:07

for each other to take proper time

22:10

out. I think it can be quite

22:12

a leap for people to think about it though . They ran, I mean

22:14

, the way I always think about self care is self

22:16

care is the thing that charges

22:18

you up in order to care about other people

22:21

and other things. So you start with

22:23

self care. It's not something you do to fix

22:25

things after you've run out. It's

22:27

how you start from a place of

22:29

caring for self. Because if you can't care for yourself,

22:31

you can't care for anybody else.

22:33

Yeah. And I learned thing this

22:35

week actually, which is that you can

22:38

get all of your apps to close down at

22:40

a certain time of night.

22:42

So , um, the , there's, it's not

22:45

tempting , uh, or it's not quite as

22:47

easy. It's an extra couple of clicks in order to

22:49

be able to get to your email. So for anybody

22:51

that hasn't found it , um, uh

22:53

, there isn't a facility on, on

22:55

most phones now that you can get everything to

22:57

close down a particular time. Um,

23:00

and I've this week set mine to 8:00

23:02

PM fantastic. Uh, let's see whether I stick

23:04

to it well and I can't

23:05

wait for the day. They , they allow you to set

23:07

a pin number. That is the thing that lets

23:10

you get back into the apps so that you can give

23:12

that pin number to somebody else and

23:14

ask them for permission before you quickly

23:16

sort of , uh , uh, succumb to

23:18

the urge to override it.

23:20

Never share pin numbers. What we

23:22

learned in a financial wellbeing class is don't

23:25

use the same thing as your bank card. Let's

23:28

just, let's just move, move, move

23:31

forward. Let's start thinking a little bit about

23:33

, um, some, some States

23:35

of utopia. Uh, you know, and , and

23:38

thinking about if

23:40

we were, if we were creating

23:42

work cultures where , uh

23:45

, burnout just wasn't

23:48

, uh, something which , uh,

23:51

yeah , was , um, was, was, was

23:53

on the cards for, for most people.

23:56

What, what things would be being

23:58

in place? Your what , what

24:00

, what would, what would chief execs

24:03

like me , um, or managers

24:05

be doing and thinking about

24:07

, uh, in order to , um,

24:10

to try and eliminate the

24:12

, uh, the, the risks of

24:15

people experiencing burnout.

24:17

The first thing I would say to any chief exec

24:19

is to take responsibility for

24:21

your own , uh, wellbeing.

24:24

Uh , cause if you're not well, the chances

24:26

are the rest of us aren't going to be well. Because

24:28

as you , uh , struggled to cope,

24:31

then it's probably gonna have a ripple effect.

24:33

And one of the , uh , things

24:36

that is often underlooked your wellbeing and

24:38

engagement , uh , is around

24:41

some kind of assumption that the people near

24:43

the top of the organization are feeling

24:45

better about things than the

24:48

people who report to them. And that often

24:50

isn't true. And as we know, you know, if you're a chief

24:52

exec can be a lonely place and

24:55

maybe you don't have people that you can

24:57

confide in. Maybe you don't have the psychological

24:59

safety to say, you know what, I'm really finding

25:02

this hard. I'm going to get

25:04

some help. Can you help me with this?

25:06

That kind of bravery. And

25:08

you know, we see the gritted teeth and we just, the

25:11

determination to carry on and

25:14

you know, if, if you can't

25:16

look after yourself, if you can't stay, well

25:18

then, then what? Hope for the rest

25:21

of us. So that's the first thing to say. So create

25:23

a culture. And this is what Brenae Brown

25:25

talks about with this culture of vulnerability,

25:28

vulnerable leadership rather than, than armored leadership.

25:31

So as a chief exec being determined

25:33

and say, I'm finding this really hard, or I

25:35

don't know what to do, let's try

25:37

and figure it out together, can you help me?

25:40

Those kinds of things are more likely

25:42

to create the psychological

25:44

safety that says, Oh, okay. Yeah,

25:47

the chief exempt isn't some kind of superhero

25:49

. They're just another human being in a particular

25:51

role. And it's okay

25:54

to say I need help. Yeah.

25:57

Right. Yeah . If you

25:59

don't go down that route, then one of

26:01

the signals that you send is that somehow

26:04

you are in that role as the chief exec

26:06

because you're somehow , uh , you know , have superpowers

26:09

or invincible or sat here

26:11

and make that kind of thing. Right.

26:15

And whether that's what you

26:17

intended, that's often how it's received.

26:21

Okay. And people will tend to put

26:23

people in authority on pedestals and

26:26

you know, that's probably not very

26:28

helpful. And certainly if

26:31

they see behaviors in

26:33

leaders , uh , that

26:36

are unhealthy, there may be some kind of signaling

26:38

that says, this is what we do around here. So,

26:41

you know, if you see a leader is

26:43

constantly , uh , going out

26:46

, uh, entertaining clients , uh,

26:49

till , uh, late at night and you

26:51

know, showing up at work, not looking their best

26:53

in the morning, what kind of signal does

26:55

that send to the rest of the organization,

26:58

for example. So it has to start , this is back to the self care

27:00

thing. It has to start with you and it has to start

27:02

at the top and to , to model

27:04

the behaviors

27:07

that you want to see in everybody else.

27:10

So , um, okay, let's

27:12

get personal from Ireland. Um,

27:15

uh, so your self

27:17

care, how do you , uh, look

27:19

after yourself?

27:21

I do go to the gym. I am one of those people I

27:24

didn't use to be actually, and I used to have all

27:26

sorts of problems as a result of it. So it's

27:28

only in fairly recent years that I've become that

27:30

person. Um, and

27:32

I enjoy being outside. I enjoy being

27:34

out on my bike. Um, I

27:37

have my little folding Brompton, which probably looks like

27:39

a clown bike from a distance, but actually it brings me much

27:41

joy. Um, and

27:44

I'm also a singer. Uh , and

27:46

until recently I did a professional job singing

27:48

for seven years and I'm having a bit of a break from that,

27:50

but that brings me a lot of joy. And

27:54

if I'm not doing that , uh, I'm

27:56

trying to make sure that I'm getting enough sleep

27:59

and that I'm not putting too many

28:01

harmful substances in my body in any one

28:03

moment. And

28:05

just paying attention to what

28:07

my body tells me about

28:09

how I'm feeling and what I need to do.

28:12

Yeah . Interesting. Say a bit more about that.

28:15

Well, I think recognizing

28:18

that, you know, we

28:20

all have limited reserves of energy

28:23

and at any given moment,

28:25

you know, they're going to be drained in

28:27

all sorts of different ways. So for

28:29

me, for example, a might be a

28:31

surprising fact to some people, but actually I'm quite

28:33

introverted and yet

28:36

I'm a coach. I spend all my day with people

28:39

and I know that if I've done

28:41

six hours of coaching, I'm going to be

28:43

no good for anybody. And what I'll need to

28:45

do is just to go home and curl up with

28:47

a book and not talk to anybody.

28:49

And then, you know, in the morning I'm fine,

28:52

but if I was then to be booked into

28:54

a party, you know , that evening or

28:56

some other kind of social gathering , um,

28:59

I wouldn't show up in the way that I wanted

29:01

to show up. So it's about having the,

29:04

I suppose the self awareness and

29:08

you know, acceptance that you can't do everything.

29:12

Tony, thank you. I think , uh, yeah

29:14

, I just want to end by really

29:17

just going back to , uh

29:19

, that sort of definition and reminding

29:21

people that what burnout is,

29:24

is about chronic workplace stress

29:26

that isn't managed and work

29:28

will be stressful sometimes, but

29:30

it is our absolute responsibility

29:32

as line managers, as chief execs

29:35

, as organizations to ensure

29:38

that stresses are managed

29:40

, that staff supported. Um,

29:42

and that , uh, alongside

29:45

that , uh, organizational

29:47

, uh, responsibility. There's also

29:49

the personal responsibility

29:51

that we all have to do the best we can to look after ourselves.

29:54

So thank you for , um, your

29:56

challenge , um, to me , um , in

29:58

the first place, which was don't just deal

30:00

with the symptoms, make sure that you're trying to do

30:02

everything you can to prevent it in the first place. That appreciated

30:05

that deeply. And thanks very much coming to talk

30:07

to me today. My pleasure.

30:11

So I hope you enjoyed the

30:13

conversation with Tony. If you want

30:15

to find out more about Tony and his

30:17

work, go to his website, Tony

30:20

Piper . Dot . Coach next

30:22

week will be the last episode in this series

30:24

of just about coping and I'm delighted that

30:27

my final guest is Phil a [inaudible]

30:30

and Phil is the executive

30:32

director of the kaleidoscope trust

30:34

and founder of UK black pride

30:37

. So just to finish this

30:39

episode of just about coping, a

30:42

couple of reviews. One person talking

30:44

about the conversation with Johnny

30:46

Benjamin really found the , uh, the

30:48

point about hope and the importance

30:50

of hope at the point

30:52

of diagnosis and in conversations

30:55

was really powerfully made. And

30:57

the second review on iTunes

30:59

was said, just found, finished listening

31:01

to Simon interview and dr Rand stuff

31:04

to relate to stuff, to get inspired

31:06

by stuff, to make you optimistic

31:08

and stuff to make you laugh. Thank

31:10

you very much for all of your views.

31:12

Thank you for listening. Thank you for

31:15

being passive. These conversations.

31:18

Please do continue to leave

31:20

us reviews on iTunes.

31:23

Please do continue to join

31:25

the conversation on social media using

31:27

the hashtag Jac podcast

31:30

I and Simon Blake. Thanks very much for [inaudible]

31:32

.