0:06

Welcome to the Relationship Recovery Podcast

0:09

hosted by Jessica Knight , a

0:11

certified life coach who specializes

0:13

in narcissistic and emotional abuse

0:15

. This podcast is intended

0:18

to help you identify manipulative

0:20

and abusive behavior , set boundaries

0:22

with yourself and others , and heal

0:25

the relationship with yourself so

0:27

you can learn to love in a healthy way

0:29

.

0:33

Hello and thank you for being here . Today

0:36

. I speak with Trey . Trey

0:39

is a survivor of narcissism

0:41

and is absolutely

0:43

hilarious on Instagram and

0:45

TikTok showing what it's like to be in a relationship

0:48

with a narcissist , and

0:50

although his content is

0:52

definitely meant to bring awareness

0:54

to a lot of the

0:57

intricacies of being in a narcissistic , abusive

0:59

relationship , he brings a

1:01

light and welcoming aura

1:04

to a lot of his work . I

1:06

really enjoy talking to Trey . We have so many

1:08

similarities in our stories

1:10

and I just appreciate the way

1:13

that he candidly talks about

1:15

how he views

1:17

the world and how he views healing

1:19

from a narcissistic relationship

1:22

, and in this episode he talks

1:24

a lot about how he saw his own

1:26

mind and had to make peace with it . This

1:29

episode is about rumination . It is very

1:31

important to understand that

1:33

our brain is going to go on

1:36

and on and on and on , and working

1:38

with somebody like Trey or somebody like

1:40

me , it can help calm down that cycle

1:42

so you actually can begin to think for yourself , something

1:44

that a lot of us don't feel like we can do in

1:47

a narcissistic relationship or when healing from

1:49

one . This is a jam

1:52

packed episode . I really hope

1:54

you enjoy it and , as always , you

1:56

can find me on Instagram

1:58

at Emotional Abuse Coach , my

2:00

website Emotional Abuse Coachcom

2:03

, and you can always email me

2:05

, jessica , at JessicaNightCoachingcom

2:07

. Thank you , hi

2:15

Trey . Thank you so much for joining me again

2:17

.

2:18

Hey , thanks for having me back . I'm excited to be

2:20

here Of course .

2:22

Can you tell us about you

2:24

, your platform and what you do , just

2:26

to give us an intro into who you are ?

2:29

Yes , so to those of you guys who don't know me , my

2:31

name is Trey , I'm a narcissistic abuse

2:33

survivor and I'm also a doctoral

2:35

candidate in occupational therapy , and

2:38

I essentially kind of stumbled into

2:40

this whole world by accident , was never planned

2:42

or never thought I would do

2:44

anything like this .

2:45

I want to survive narcissistic abuse , yeah

2:49

.

2:49

And then talk about it online . Yeah

2:51

, so yeah , none of this was on the plan at all , but

2:54

I got into a

2:56

narcissistic romantic relationship

2:59

that lasted 18 months and

3:01

I mean I don't really have to go into

3:03

everything that I went through . If you

3:05

look into narcissistic

3:08

abuse at all , let's just say I have the whole

3:10

gamut of it , with the exception of physical abuse

3:12

and cheating , isolation

3:15

, gaslighting , manipulation , blind duck

3:17

, all the things . And

3:21

it just what I recently started saying

3:23

, because I finally was able to put it into words , is that it

3:25

was a catalyst that put me

3:27

on a journey that I wasn't prepared for and

3:31

that was the healing journey for me . I didn't

3:33

have any tools . Yes , I was in

3:35

therapy . I was very blessed to see

3:37

acknowledged what narcissistic abuse was

3:39

, which is kind of rare . But

3:41

even with that , I just didn't

3:44

know what to do on a day-to-day basis

3:46

to reclaim my life and

3:48

start to reclaim my own

3:50

thought pattern . And how

3:52

do I understand why

3:54

I miss this person ? That's so terrible that

3:56

I know I don't want back in my life . But on the other

3:59

side of the coin , I know I miss them and

4:01

it was probably about , I

4:03

would say , a five to six months' journey for

4:06

me , and then , a couple of months after that , I

4:08

don't know what possessed me to do it , but I didn't know

4:10

what to do . I don't know if you've ever experienced

4:12

this , but have you ever listened to a song , and

4:15

a song that maybe you've known for forever

4:18

, but because of recent life experiences , you

4:20

interpreted it a completely different way .

4:22

Yeah , totally that song rise

4:24

up . I was so annoyed by when it would come on

4:26

the radio and stuff and then after I

4:28

was going through this I was like , oh my God , I

4:30

love this song .

4:32

I love it , it was my anthem . Yeah

4:34

, I had a similar thing with

4:36

Katy Perry's song called Dark Horse . I've

4:38

always liked that song , but I

4:40

just liked it for the beat and all of that

4:42

. And I was listening to it and

4:44

I just heard the lyrics , I

4:46

guess in such a different way

4:48

, and I was like , oh my gosh , this

4:50

completely describes what I went through

4:53

. And so it started off where

4:55

I was lip-syncing to songs

4:57

on TikTok , kind of how TikTok used to be two

5:00

or three years ago , and then

5:02

one day I just posted this skit

5:04

that was kind of inspired by the movie Inside

5:07

Out , where it was like all the different things going

5:09

on in the mind of an narcissist , and

5:11

it kind of blew up and never

5:14

stopped from there . So I've

5:16

been coaching for about a year and a half now and

5:18

I've got courses , I've course out , I've

5:20

got a couple of books out , have

5:22

a coaching community and it's just turned into

5:24

this huge passion that aligns completely

5:27

with what I'm going to grad school for

5:29

.

5:30

And now here we are , yeah , and

5:33

you went over a lot of your story in the ins

5:35

and outs of what you went through on the

5:37

last podcast that we did . That I'll link in the

5:39

show notes here . So if anybody's curious

5:41

about the Trey's background , that's definitely

5:44

a great episode to listen to . And

5:46

so today I wanted to talk about how

5:49

we can begin to break those thought patterns

5:51

because , as you said , you didn't necessarily

5:53

choose to be here , but you found yourself

5:55

here and then you were like , okay , well

5:57

now how do I get out of it ? And

5:59

why can't I stop thinking and longing for somebody

6:02

that was treating me so terrible which

6:04

I think a lot of us say without

6:06

knowing that we're trauma bonded , without

6:08

knowing what's actually happening and without

6:11

really being able to make sense of it ? Because I

6:13

know in my experience people would be like why can't

6:15

you just stop and be like I can't ?

6:17

I can't . Did you have a ?

6:19

similar experience ? Well , I'm

6:21

sure you did , but , like , can you tell me a little bit about

6:23

your experience when you were healing from

6:26

you know , like you said that five to six month

6:28

period of having

6:30

to work through all of this , it must have been excruciating

6:33

. But do you remember how

6:35

you thought about your own thought patterns

6:37

? Like , were you like , oh my God , this is ridiculous

6:39

. Why do I think this ? Like , I'm sure it started

6:42

with some self judgment , oh , 100%

6:44

.

6:45

Because I've always been an overthinker , like

6:47

I'm a perfectionist by nature and

6:49

I like to know the ins and outs of

6:51

things , which I think it's not surprising

6:53

that I'm going into the field that I'm going into

6:55

because I've always loved science

6:57

and I like knowing how things work

7:00

. And I just couldn't

7:02

wrap my head around why he

7:04

did what he did . I couldn't wrap my head

7:06

around like how did I even

7:08

accept all of this ? How did I get

7:10

here ? Why did I stay for so

7:12

long and what could I have done different

7:15

that could have made him make

7:18

better decisions ? And it was

7:20

all really just back on me and I

7:22

just said but the basis of it was I just couldn't

7:24

understand it . And what was frustrating was

7:26

I felt very out of control

7:28

of my own thought pattern , like

7:31

he was just as much as I didn't

7:33

want him to be . He was the first person I thought about

7:35

when I woke up . He was the last person

7:37

I thought about when I went to bed and often

7:39

on all day in between , and

7:43

I just was repeating certain

7:45

aspects of the relationship over and over

7:47

again in my mind . I was trying to find

7:49

answers and at the same time

7:52

, because I didn't know anything about

7:54

these behavior patterns . At

7:56

the time he was trying really

7:58

hard to maintain a friendship

8:00

with me and I completely fell

8:03

for it , like 100% fell for it , because

8:06

even it's like , even for me

8:08

I knew I

8:10

couldn't have it back romantically because

8:13

of everything that had happened . Like

8:15

it just it was not even

8:17

a legit like , it wasn't even

8:19

a legitimate option for me as

8:21

far as like my family dynamic and my

8:24

relationship with my kid's mom and

8:26

all that I knew I couldn't Like I . So

8:28

that was kind of the saving grace for me

8:30

because I was kind of held accountable

8:33

by an outside source of

8:35

I can't invite him back into

8:37

my life romantically but I still I

8:40

couldn't imagine my life without

8:43

him at the same time . So for me

8:45

friendship was like the

8:47

best that it could go , even

8:50

though there was a part

8:52

of me that knew he wasn't a healthy person to be around

8:54

and I didn't know if I wanted to be friends with him . And

8:57

I started to find out because I didn't

8:59

find out about the cheating till after the breakup

9:01

. So you know I'm like he cheated , he

9:03

did this , he was lying about this and

9:05

all of a sudden like I don't even know if I want to

9:07

be friends with him , but at the same time I can't

9:09

imagine him not being in my life . So

9:11

like , even as I'm trying to explain it , I'm

9:13

sure it's a little bit hard to follow . Well , that's what

9:15

was going on in my brain . Like it was hard to

9:17

follow my own thought pattern . Nothing

9:20

was making sense . I fell out of control

9:22

. I hated him at one point

9:24

, but I still missed him . It

9:26

was just , it was all over the place and it was exhausting

9:29

, like physically , mentally , spiritually

9:32

, it was just exhausting .

9:34

Yeah , well , I want to touch

9:37

on something that you pointed out . I know

9:39

it might be a little off topic , but I think it's important

9:41

is that you said he wanted to stay

9:43

in your life as a friend . And

9:46

I think that happens a lot

9:48

, where they're like I don't like , I don't want

9:50

to be with you , or you're like no , I can't be with you

9:52

, or I think it's usually the other way , like they

9:54

don't want to be with us , and then it's is I

9:56

like , but let's stay friends . And

9:58

I remember me thinking like

10:01

, first of all , you're an awful

10:03

friend to all the people that you're friends with

10:05

, but at the same time , like I was

10:07

in the same place , like I can't imagine not

10:10

being in this person's life , but I

10:12

and I think it was like I also can't

10:14

imagine not knowing what they're doing . There was

10:16

something about like that control thing that I noticed

10:18

that which isn't me , it isn't inherently

10:20

me that I was like I need to know these things

10:22

that kept coming up . And I'm curious

10:25

for you , like , when he

10:27

said , like I want to stay friends

10:29

, I wonder are

10:31

you in touch with what he was wanting from you ? Was

10:33

he just wanting to have you in his life Because

10:36

he wasn't a good person in your life

10:38

. So what do you think was his motive there ?

10:41

I think there was a couple of reasons . Number one I

10:43

think he was very good at playing

10:45

the victim in every situation . So

10:48

, like anything , whether it was work related

10:50

, whether it came to his mom , whether

10:53

it came to his friends , his

10:55

exes he was always the victim . Everybody's

10:58

always screwed him over , everybody's always

11:00

in this and always in that , which that

11:02

, by the way , is a huge red flag . Like

11:05

I'm not saying that , people don't

11:07

run into crappy people and their life's

11:09

going to be a victim in literally every

11:11

single story and they can't say like

11:14

I know , I didn't do this , well , you

11:16

know , or whatever . Then there's

11:18

only one common denominator there . So

11:20

that was a huge red flag that I sort

11:23

of missed but mostly overlooked . So

11:25

I think one of it was that helped play

11:27

into his victim story . Because I

11:29

think he was smart enough to know that

11:31

I wasn't going to put

11:34

up with it for very long , like I think he was

11:36

smart enough to know I eventually was

11:38

going to cut the ties . But if he could

11:40

set the stage of he

11:42

tried to be friends with me

11:45

and I cut

11:47

off that friendship , then he still remains a

11:49

victim because he can be like we'll see . Like

11:51

he could show off the repeats , like , see , I texted him

11:53

, like I told him he's the best friend that I ever had

11:55

and you know this is I made all this

11:57

effort and he still just

11:59

blocked me . Like you see , like

12:01

he used the problem . So I think that was a big motive

12:04

.

12:04

Yeah .

12:05

But I think there was another motive as well , and

12:08

this was just started to be revealed

12:10

the longer that I was in contact

12:12

with him and he was competing with me and

12:15

it was like it was like stupid

12:17

stuff , like I remember I'm not

12:19

really big on Snapchat at all . Like

12:21

I have it , but I really use it and

12:24

I ended up this is kind

12:26

of a sidetrack , but I know contact journey

12:28

was kind of a progression so I blocked

12:30

him in social media at first , but I was still texting

12:33

and calling or whatever , and so at

12:35

one point I had him block on every social

12:37

media with the exception of Snapchat , and it was kind

12:40

of the same thing for you . Like it was like a way to

12:42

still keep tabs in

12:44

a partially for safety . Yeah

12:46

, because it was also

12:49

like you said , like for some reason

12:51

, if I could know what was going on

12:53

with him , maybe it could explain

12:55

what happened and

12:57

it's , you know , logically I know that doesn't

12:59

make sense , but that's what was going on in my head

13:01

Like if I could figure out what's going on

13:03

with him and what he's doing now , who's he hanging

13:05

out with and blah , blah , blah , then maybe it can kind

13:07

of help give you some answers on anything . And never

13:10

did . But that was the motive for

13:12

me . So , but I started

13:14

to notice like if I posted something

13:16

on Snapchat on my stories , and all of a sudden

13:18

he was post something on his story and

13:21

then , like I had lost some weight after

13:23

the break up , so it was very uncharacteristic

13:26

of people I would . You know I was trying to

13:28

like I don't know , I guess , like put

13:31

myself out there and just like explore , you

13:33

try to find this new sense of confidence

13:35

. So I would like post a shirtless picture of me and

13:38

then all of a sudden , he would go and have the photos you've

13:40

done and there's a picture with him and

13:43

if I'm on a date , all of a

13:45

sudden he's texting me about this

13:47

date that he went on . So it was like everything

13:49

was like tip for tap .

13:51

Yeah .

13:52

I couldn't be doing better than he was doing post

13:54

break up , and I even tested this

13:56

one day because I noticed he hadn't

13:58

posted anything on his Snapchat

14:00

story in like three days or something . And

14:03

so it's like okay , let me just try

14:05

this . So I posted a selfie in the Snapchat

14:07

story . No lie , within 30 minutes he posted

14:09

a selfie on his so I'm like this dude

14:11

will be , like he is , he's watching and he's

14:14

competing . So I think there was a

14:16

big motive of that too , because one of the things

14:18

that he would say in the relationship

14:21

to kind of lay this future

14:23

guilt over me if I ever left was that

14:26

essentially , like his life would be

14:28

terrible if I ever left him . Like if I have

14:30

the dude who leaves me , like I'll never be the

14:32

same in my life , I'll just like fall apart , or

14:35

I won't take care of myself , or I won't do this

14:37

or I won't back . So I think he wanted to also

14:39

prove himself wrong of

14:42

like no , I'm doing just fine . In

14:44

fact , I'm thriving without you

14:46

. So I think there was a big motive for

14:48

that too .

14:49

Well , and I think that there's also like that also

14:52

creates so many more thoughts for you too

14:54

, around , like now . Now , not

14:56

only are you like still stuck

14:59

on this person , you know your trauma bond , it's

15:01

you're like this person is awful for me , but

15:03

I still want to talk to him and I think about him all

15:05

the time , and you're like figuring

15:07

these things out , which I think just it

15:09

like almost like starts the rumination process

15:12

or like doubles up on it in some way , because

15:14

now you're picking up on the pattern , you're

15:16

annoyed by the pattern , but you also can't figure it out Because

15:19

, especially if you're trying not to contact , you're not going

15:21

to ask . You're not going to ask those things , but

15:23

it's like wait , what is this person doing

15:25

? Yeah , I think in my world I

15:27

ended up getting to this point of like that

15:29

I realized how ridiculous they were and I

15:31

wasn't going to figure them out , but that took months

15:34

.

15:35

Yeah , yeah , because there's a big difference

15:37

between understanding something

15:39

and accepting something . And it's hard to reach

15:41

acceptance when we're stuck trying to understand when

15:44

it comes to narcissistic relationships , because

15:46

we're never fully going to understand it . And , just

15:48

like you said , you know when you do start to figure

15:50

things out , like yes , you may answer

15:52

one more , one question , but that answer

15:54

leads you to six more questions . So it's like

15:56

it's just never ending cycle

15:59

At that . At some

16:01

point I just had to be like I

16:03

just I can't , I can't understand it , I'm exhausted

16:06

from trying to understand it , and just and I don't

16:08

want to .

16:08

Yeah , I don't even want to .

16:09

I don't want to exactly .

16:12

And so that really does bring us into

16:15

rumination , and I

16:17

was on your website this week and

16:19

I saw that you called rumination

16:21

an emotional prison , and I thought that that was such

16:23

a good description of what it feels like

16:25

, especially when we are stuck

16:28

like so stuck in it . And you

16:31

just gave us a really great example of what

16:33

it looks like when you're ruminating , like you said , like

16:35

all of these thoughts just sort of coming in at once

16:37

and then they lead to these other thoughts and

16:39

they're all happening at one time

16:41

. And so was

16:43

there a point that you realized that you

16:45

were stuck in rumination

16:47

, that that was like almost like problem

16:49

number one I can't stop ruminating

16:52

or was there another pattern that you realized

16:54

was happening for you first , when you started to identify

16:57

something was happening ?

16:58

You know , I never even had the word rumination

17:01

at the time because , again , like

17:04

I , I wasn't on

17:06

any of the platforms . At the time

17:08

, it wasn't as much of a buzzword

17:10

as it is now . Now it's almost like getting overfetched

17:13

. It's like everybody's talking about it , whether they

17:15

know about it or not . But even at the time nobody

17:18

was really talking about it . It's an exception

17:20

of a handful , a few creators

17:22

, but I wasn't even in that realm

17:24

. So what was a life-old

17:27

moment for me was , let

17:29

me remember what I was looking up . But I was

17:32

looking at something . At this point

17:34

I did have at least the term narcissistic

17:37

relationship attached to it . I still didn't necessarily

17:39

have narcissistic abuse , but I

17:41

knew that he was narcissistic

17:44

. So I think I

17:46

was looking at something about what happens

17:48

to people who are with a narcissist , or it's

17:50

a basic Google search of that , One

17:53

of the things that I read . But to

17:55

actually like this description better

17:57

, they called it the Excessive Thinking

17:59

Cycle . That's what it was

18:02

to me , because it was an obsession

18:04

. It felt like an addiction . It felt

18:06

because , if you think about just

18:08

even in terms of addiction , you're

18:11

addicted to something because you feel like you can't

18:13

stop it and you're

18:15

powerless to it . That's what it felt like

18:17

. I actually prefer the

18:19

term Excessive Thinking Cycle

18:22

. It's the same thing as rumination , but

18:24

I just think that term describes it a lot better . When

18:26

I read that , it was like , okay

18:29

, I'm not crazy , because

18:31

they're saying right here , this is normal

18:34

and it's part of the phase of leaving it

18:36

. It was very comforting to me because

18:38

, again , this whole Excessive Thinking

18:40

pattern like , yes , I've been a chronic

18:43

overthinker , but when it came to

18:45

a relationship or break-up

18:47

or anything like that , I never experienced

18:50

this kind of missile chaos Like

18:52

I was experiencing in this one . So

18:54

it just helped me . It helped

18:57

bring some peace to that aspect of like

18:59

okay , not only am I not crazy

19:01

, but this is expected

19:03

and this is normal after

19:05

what I went through . Then , of course , the

19:07

next question was okay , now , what do I do

19:09

about it ? Yeah , Again

19:12

, I think a lot of this

19:14

out of my own was I was just

19:16

finding ways to try to take

19:18

control back of my thoughts , like through whether

19:21

it was affirmation or whether it was prayer

19:24

or whether it was just being things that I enjoyed

19:26

. I was like I'm just going to try anything

19:28

and just see what works , see

19:30

what makes me feel better , see what makes

19:32

me not think about this quite so much . It

19:35

was really just the whole element of trial

19:38

in here for sure .

19:39

What are some of the things that you tried ? I know

19:41

you just mentioned like prayer journaling

19:43

, but can you give us a little bit of

19:45

that laundry list ?

19:47

Yeah , so the thing that actually means the most

19:49

difference . My therapist had

19:51

talked to me about this concept

19:53

, very well-known in psychology

19:55

and actually , ironically , we

19:58

even just talked about this in my

20:00

class a couple weeks ago and

20:02

concept is just

20:05

a tool called the wellness wheel

20:07

. Now , the traditional psychology

20:09

wellness wheel is more about

20:11

like a balanced life . So it's like what's

20:14

your quality of life ? How well balanced

20:16

are you ? In my field we call it occupational

20:18

balance . So are you lighter

20:21

, physical health , looking like ? What is your

20:24

relationship with your family ? Social

20:26

, all of that ? And for some reason , when

20:29

my therapist was talking to me about this , I was

20:31

just opening it in a form of self-care

20:33

, but not like how society

20:35

sees self-care more , just like

20:37

doing things that you enjoy

20:40

, that you know if you've heard the

20:42

phrase fill your cup so and

20:44

doing it in a way that's balanced

20:46

and where you're doing it from multiple

20:49

different avenues . And so I literally

20:51

created this little spreadsheet

20:53

on my computer where

20:55

it was like the days of the week , my categories

20:58

, and I had like physical health , I had new figures to

21:00

life , I had quality time

21:02

with friends , quality time with family . I

21:04

was kind of starting to get back into the dating scene . So

21:06

I think I had dating as a category and

21:09

then which ? By the way , it was way too soon for me

21:11

to do that .

21:16

But yeah , it was . Another podcast is dating juice

21:18

.

21:19

That's another conversation . I should

21:21

write a course on that . But

21:24

, and then I think another one was like

21:26

, I put as like my mental health

21:28

, and so what I would do is

21:31

, every day I would sit down and I would ask myself how

21:33

did I take care of myself today ? And

21:35

even if , like , the only thing I did in

21:38

my physical health category

21:40

was I did my nighttime skincare

21:42

routine , I would put that it's the

21:44

only thing I did for my spiritual life , as I listened

21:46

to worship songs on the way to work

21:48

. I would put that so I gave myself as

21:50

much credit as I could , and

21:53

what I would do is , in a nonjudgmental way

21:55

, at the end of the week , I would sit down and evaluate

21:57

OK , how am I taking care of myself this week

21:59

? Are there areas that I neglected ? What

22:02

worked really well for me , what

22:04

maybe didn't ? How did I feel after spending time with

22:06

my friends ? How did I feel after ? You

22:09

know , I had a hard time coming up

22:11

with an example , but I would just go through everything , like

22:13

how did I feel ? Did it make an impact

22:15

, did it not ? And so

22:17

it helped me shift my focus and

22:19

I had to make this deal with myself where

22:21

I had to do all of that

22:23

before I

22:26

did anything else , because , even though I was no

22:28

contact and hadn't blocked on social media

22:30

, one of the things that was very different for

22:32

me was unblocking and

22:34

checking . Yeah , we're trying to find them on the dating

22:37

app or whatever .

22:40

Google , you've a person story

22:42

and then putting in there yeah

22:45

, yeah exactly .

22:46

So I tried to approach it in

22:48

a way of I didn't feel like I could stop

22:51

it necessarily , so

22:53

I was like , okay , if I can't feel like I can stop

22:55

, then I can at least make

22:57

myself be productive and Take care

22:59

of myself first before I

23:01

participate or engage in

23:03

this . That I know is unhealthy for me . And

23:05

by doing that , after I

23:08

did all this check in and I did all this stuff , sometimes

23:10

I still did go

23:13

in and unblock on the Instagram or find it on

23:15

the app or whatever . But a lot of

23:17

but the more and more I was doing this and

23:19

all I was putting this into practice . So less than what

23:21

I wanted to . So I

23:24

think what worked for me was

23:26

just meeting myself when I

23:28

was at , because I didn't set

23:30

an unrealistic expectation

23:33

of how I'm going to stop

23:35

doing all of this tomorrow . That

23:37

seemed impossible for me . So why would

23:39

I set that as a goal ? I'm just setting myself

23:41

up to get disappointed and to feel like

23:43

I fail and self-defeated and

23:45

all of that . So I I just

23:47

I was realistic with myself Okay , I can't

23:49

stop it , but I am gonna do off

23:52

first and I'm gonna journal before

23:54

I do that . I am gonna make sure that I took care

23:56

of myself today and then , if I still

23:58

want to , I'm giving myself permission to .

24:01

Yeah .

24:02

I'm gonna slowly started to dissipate after that .

24:05

I love what you said about like the way

24:07

that you framed it , filling up your

24:09

cup , and the spreadsheet you created reminded

24:11

me so much of what I do , but

24:13

it's also what I help people with and I call it is

24:15

the pillars of your own personal

24:17

integrity , and how can you show up

24:19

for you and like for you it's

24:22

these buckets , and for me the buckets

24:24

might have been different , but the point is , is that

24:26

like putting that attention back on

24:28

ourselves ? You know , for me it was

24:30

like , am I getting my nails done , something

24:32

that , like , I do enjoy , that I is like

24:34

the first thing to go when I'm stressed Cuz I'm like I don't

24:36

have time for this , but like it's an act

24:39

of self-care or I need to get outside

24:41

every day , like there's like these , we

24:43

have them , and I love what

24:45

you said about also asking yourself how it felt

24:47

, because I think that is such an important piece

24:50

that comes out of what we went

24:52

through . Is that , friends , that we

24:54

may have hung out before if we're May

24:56

not , it might not feel good anymore

24:59

to now that we're like working on ourselves and

25:01

we're there for ourselves . We might be doing things that

25:03

we think we should ? be , doing that just don't feel good anymore

25:05

and having the ability to ask yourself

25:07

that , because I think that Also breaks the rumination

25:10

as well , because now you're like asking

25:12

yourself about you and not just asking

25:14

about yourself in relationships to this other person

25:16

.

25:17

Yeah , and you know , bring up a good point when it comes

25:19

to like friends and people and all of that . You know , there

25:21

were people that I had to distance

25:23

myself from , not because I didn't

25:26

. Well , there were some people I distance myself from because

25:28

I just , straight up , didn't trust him

25:30

. But there was one friend in particular who

25:33

I knew I could , but she was married

25:35

to his boss and I knew

25:37

that I didn't trust myself

25:39

in it . To like Not ask her for

25:42

updates , I'm like how's he doing at

25:44

work ? You know how's he doing it ? Blah , blah , blah . And

25:47

I didn't trust myself to not do that . And

25:49

the other thing that I didn't trust was that , you

25:51

know , he wouldn't come up casually on

25:53

conversation . You know , just because

25:56

that was how our relationship

25:58

was founded on and so I

26:00

did , I had to distance myself from her

26:02

as much as I didn't want to , but I knew

26:04

it was a good thing for me and

26:06

I knew that if our friendship was like Was

26:09

what I thought that it was , that I knew that when I was ready

26:11

that it would rekindle and

26:13

it did . And you know , I told her

26:15

at one point I was just like

26:17

I'm really sorry , like I'm sorry , I

26:20

just like . This was what was going on with me at the time

26:22

and if I could go back and redo it , I

26:24

would say all this to her up front . That was a

26:26

mistake that I made , but you

26:28

know , I just told her this is what was going on . This is why I

26:30

pull a lot and she was so gracious about

26:32

it , you know . So I mean sometimes , like that

26:34

distance that you have

26:37

, it doesn't always have to be permanent and

26:39

may just be temporary . This I would

26:41

learn from my mistake , and especially

26:43

those that you hope that can

26:46

come back . Just tell them upfront so

26:48

that way they know it's not anything personal . They

26:50

may not like it still , but if they support

26:52

you and they support your healing , then they're

26:54

gonna be okay with it and you'll come back

26:57

around and when it's time . So that

26:59

was definitely something that I had to do .

27:01

Yeah and I'll I . Good , and that's also a way to really

27:03

show up for yourself and

27:05

what you you need , like

27:07

that bucket that , when we're in a relationship

27:09

is in a narcissistic relationship , starts

27:12

to be filling their bucket all the

27:14

time . We have to really learn and lean into

27:16

how to fill up hours .

27:18

Oh , yeah , yeah , because they haven't been allowed to for a

27:20

long time .

27:20

Yeah , so I know that from

27:23

our last podcast that a lot

27:25

of like writing and journaling was

27:27

also part of Breaking

27:30

the rumination process . Can you talk

27:32

a little bit about the role of journaling

27:34

or the role of like that you know writing

27:36

, or the questions that you asked yourself in

27:38

terms of breaking rumination ?

27:41

Yeah . So I can't talk about journaling a lot

27:43

Because everybody always says like

27:45

, yeah , no , no , no , that's right . And I'm like

27:48

you know , I didn't either Like half the time I did .

27:50

Yeah .

27:51

I had no system

27:53

when it came to journaling . What I looked

27:55

at journaling as was a way

27:57

for me to dump all of the mental

27:59

chatter that was going on in my head onto

28:02

a piece of paper . It was like symbolic

28:04

that I was dumping it out of my head and

28:06

putting it on a piece of paper so that

28:08

way I could close the book , and that's

28:10

how I viewed it . So there was no questions that I

28:12

could . There were really no questions I asked myself . I didn't

28:15

have a prompted journal , had an old fashioned composition

28:17

book that I still used to this day and I

28:19

was doing it every single

28:21

day . Sometimes I was doing it multiple

28:23

times a day , and I did that for six weeks straight

28:25

. I still do it now . It's more

28:28

of an as needed thing , but again , I learned

28:30

this because of my wellness

28:32

practice . I noticed that when

28:34

I journaled , versus when I didn't journal , I

28:36

slept better than it was nice Because I got

28:38

it all out of my head . And so now

28:40

if I am struggling

28:42

with insomnia or something like that

28:44

, I evaluate what's going on . I'm

28:47

probably pretty stressed out with everything going

28:49

into the pool and my business and my kids and

28:51

all that , and so I'm like , okay

28:53

, I'm journaling , so

28:56

I do it more as an as

28:58

needed thing now , but

29:00

at the time I needed to do it every day and

29:02

I'll be honest , there was a day I'll never forget

29:05

this . There was a day I was , I

29:07

sat down to journal . Like I said

29:09

, it was after about six weeks . I

29:11

just got back from a run and

29:13

I sat down to do it and I was just

29:15

like , and I was , I'm

29:17

okay , I don't think I want to do this . Today

29:20

and I even text my best friend . I

29:22

was like I had the thought of the bad , like did I still

29:24

do it ? And we say , you know

29:26

that it's like , we'll just try it and just see

29:28

. She's like that might be a sign that you're

29:30

growing and you're healing . And so I was like

29:32

, okay , we'll just roll it . And

29:35

you know that it just . I literally just

29:37

had a day where I was like I think I'm okay

29:39

, I don't think I'm gonna do this Like I think I'm good

29:41

and I don't remember how many more days

29:44

it was before I needed to do again , but

29:46

then I would just do it when I needed it . But

29:48

it gather really wasn't any any

29:50

system , it was just I wrote down what

29:52

was in my head , what was I thinking , what was I

29:54

feeling , no judgment attached to it

29:56

. This is just what I'm . This

29:58

is how I feel in this moment , whether

30:00

I'm angry .

30:01

It's giving those thoughts a voice Like you know

30:04

. It's like instead of , instead of like telling them

30:06

like , why am I thinking this ? It's like okay

30:08

, well , that can go down on the paper . Like why

30:10

do I keep thinking this ? Like it's just like it gets it

30:12

out of your head and puts it somewhere

30:14

?

30:15

else ? Yeah , absolutely . And I think it

30:17

kind of helped too , Cause when I would go back

30:19

and look at it , I remember at one

30:21

point I read some old entries and stuff

30:23

during the six weeks and I remember

30:25

getting almost angry because

30:28

I was like he has had

30:30

such a hold on to you and

30:33

he's not worth that , like it

30:35

was just very eye-opening to see

30:37

it , to see it on a piece

30:39

of paper , how much he was consuming my thoughts

30:41

and at this point in time I had been seeing

30:44

more manipulation from him . There's

30:46

, I mean , all of his stuff continued

30:48

even through our quote unquote friendship as

30:50

he's seeing it now . And so I'm

30:52

like look at this , like look at how he's

30:54

still lying to you , look at how he's

30:57

manipulating situations , look at how he's competing

30:59

with you , like y'all are in fricking high school , you

31:01

know , and it's just like he's not worth all this crap , like

31:04

he was never on your level to begin with and

31:07

you're allowing him to have this kind of hold on to mine , like

31:10

and it almost was like this kind

31:12

of like sassy mindset that I have , whereas

31:15

it's like no , no , he's

31:17

not on your level , it's kind of soft , you

31:19

know . So in a way , it was like it was good

31:21

for me to be kind of my own

31:23

pep talk because I could . I

31:25

could go into like I don't want , I'm

31:27

not , I'm not giving him this much power anymore

31:30

.

31:31

Yeah Well , yeah , I had a very similar

31:33

moment to what you said about , like you know , coming

31:35

back and journaling and being like , oh wait , I don't

31:37

have to do this . Like I used to save time

31:39

every night Cause that was

31:41

my , that was my strategy was like I'm going to get to the end

31:43

of the day , like I'm going to give myself space

31:46

to think about these things , but I just have to get

31:48

through the day and then I will have my time . And

31:50

at the beginning it was like I could not wait until that

31:53

time . And then it was like , all right , I I

31:55

could get to that time . And then it started to be like I just

31:57

want to go to sleep . And I actually was like , oh , my God

31:59

, that's so much growth . So just be like I think I just want to go to bed

32:01

, like I don't need

32:04

this hour of crying and

32:06

venting and writing and speaking out loud and

32:09

doing all these things , and it

32:11

helps so much with the process . And when people come

32:13

to me and say like , well , how do I break it ? I

32:15

think a lot of people at least a lot of people I work

32:18

with they get stuck on the actual writing

32:20

, like about the actual pen to

32:22

paper , or I even say , like

32:24

, talk to yourself in the car , like we

32:26

have to get these thoughts out of our head , but

32:29

that block is so strong and what

32:31

do you think that that block is that people

32:34

have against the pen to paper or

32:37

the finding different ways to get the

32:39

thoughts out ?

32:40

I joke with my clients sometimes . I'm like

32:43

I know that journaling can feel

32:45

like homework and they usually

32:47

laugh because , like I think that is

32:49

part of the problem is that you

32:51

know it does have this element of

32:54

where maybe it feels like work or

32:56

it feels like homework . But what if ? But just

32:58

like kind of you touch one . What I tell them

33:00

is to have a new journey is

33:02

really not important . If you pull up your

33:04

notes on your phone and just

33:06

type everything out and delete

33:08

it afterward , that's great . You still

33:11

gave space for you to acknowledge how you feel . I

33:13

had one client that I don't know if

33:16

I could ever do this , but it worked for her and

33:18

she did she recorded

33:20

videos like she sat down almost like

33:22

he did for a dick doc and she would just talk

33:24

her feelings out and she kept all the videos

33:26

, you know . So the avenue

33:28

of quote unquote journaling

33:31

is the most important part . What

33:34

? the most important part is is

33:36

just to acknowledge what's

33:38

going on in your head . What feelings do you

33:40

have associated with this , and don't judge

33:42

them . Because one of the things that keeps

33:44

us stuck in remediation and I see

33:46

it all the time , and I did it myself is

33:49

we have this horrible

33:51

narrative that we say to ourselves of , like

33:53

, when we miss them or when we're angry , or at this

33:55

or at that , we try to negate those

33:57

feelings and say that we shouldn't be feeling them Like

33:59

, oh , look , he was such a , he was such a PLS . Like

34:01

I don't need to be , I know I shouldn't miss them . Yeah

34:04

, that may be true , but like , ignoring that

34:06

feeling isn't going to help you . It's actually going to make it more

34:08

intense . You know , or , I don't need to be angry

34:10

over he didn't treat me well . Like well , he didn't

34:13

treat you well . You should be angry about it . Like , why would

34:15

you not be ? And that's just like we did this

34:17

thing where we tried to use our own feelings

34:19

and our own emotions and say that they're

34:21

not valid when they

34:23

actual office it . If you just embrace

34:26

that feeling fair and almost just

34:28

invited in , like you're inviting

34:31

someone over for dinner , and have

34:33

that mindset of you know what ? I don't understand

34:35

why I feel this , but I'm just going to embrace

34:37

that . It's here . I promise you

34:39

you actually process it faster . It's kind

34:41

of the same concept of like and you

34:44

know , you have a kiddo . You know what I'm going

34:46

to say my four year old Love

34:48

into pieces . That boy's also

34:50

incredibly stubborn and every time I

34:52

say hey , bud , like maybe not do that

34:54

, 30 seconds later he's doing

34:56

the exact thing until I'm not to do . Like

34:59

it is head down and it comes more intense

35:01

and the urges it's stronger . Well , we're

35:04

not any different as adults . When we tell

35:06

ourselves , like I'm not gonna feel this , our brain

35:08

is like no , but it's here and it

35:10

needs to be processed . So I'm going to keep

35:12

bothering you about it until we do

35:14

something about it .

35:15

Yeah , and I have so many people that are like

35:17

, oh , I don't want to give them more of my

35:19

time . It's like , well , you're giving them your time

35:21

anyway and also you're

35:23

giving it to them , you're giving it to yourself , you're giving it

35:25

back to yourself , this is your way of getting time

35:28

back for yourself . And I think that

35:30

a lot of us get so stuck

35:32

in that mindset of like , well , I don't

35:34

want to give them more energy . It's like , well , they're , they're getting

35:36

it anyway . Right , if we can , if we can think about

35:38

it that way , or we can think about it Like

35:40

it's coming back to us . You know what I mean

35:42

, and that that example of the kid

35:45

is so it's such a good example

35:47

because I actually was on a flight with

35:49

my kid yesterday , so I spent , they , you know

35:51

, two hours being like stop , stop , stop . You

35:54

know , just

35:56

let her do whatever the hell she was doing , which , in this

35:58

case , was like sitting with her legs up , like she

36:01

probably would have gotten bored of it and stopped , and within

36:03

a minute . But I think it's like that cycle

36:05

of like we can be so mean to ourselves

36:07

, instead of just being like

36:09

nope , this is where I'm at , like , where

36:12

I'm at is thinking about this , you know

36:14

, and I feel like I used to wake up

36:16

and purge , but out my thought . I call it a thought

36:18

purge , when I just get everything out of my head . I Used

36:21

to do it at night , I used to have to do it during

36:23

the day , and I still do it during the day

36:25

, and I've been . This is a practice I've always done my whole

36:27

life and but with healing

36:29

from abuse , it's been so essential

36:32

to just be like . I don't even know if these thoughts

36:34

are real , but I'm allowing them to get out of my head .

36:37

Yeah , and I think if you've journaled in the past

36:39

, that helps make this process easier

36:41

. I think if you've never done it before , then

36:43

it is gonna be harder to pick it up right now , because

36:46

I was the same way like I used to keep a journal

36:48

. I was never consistent about doing it every

36:50

day , but I've journaled often

36:53

on to the types in college . I already

36:55

knew the benefits of it for me and

36:57

so I just picked it back up like at

36:59

that point I hadn't journaled , and probably over

37:01

a year . But I've grown

37:03

with experience I knew that it doesn't help

37:06

. So I think if people also Haven't

37:08

done it for whatever reason or

37:10

maybe they tried it in past and it

37:13

wasn't the right avenue for them so you know what I

37:15

also tell people generally may not be the right avenue

37:18

for you and that's okay , but it's

37:20

not the right avenue then Do

37:23

a 30 minute . Who liked you set an alarm

37:25

on your phone and just ask

37:27

yourself in that moment , how am I feeling right now ? And

37:30

just acknowledge how you feel in that moment , you

37:32

know , or whatever . But it is just about giving

37:34

Acknowledgement and credit

37:36

to how you're feeling . And I think

37:39

there's also a level of frustration With

37:41

it because we don't like admitting

37:44

that we think about them as

37:46

often as we do . We don't like that

37:48

they live in their head room three , and so

37:50

it's like I don't want to acknowledge it , but

37:53

at the same time , the more that we do and

37:55

the more that we I don't know . It

37:57

was kind of like I said the same thing with my journal when

37:59

I went back and I just looked and saw how

38:02

often I Was being consumed

38:04

by thoughts of him . It actually helped Me

38:07

get to the point of like I'm done

38:09

, I'm done with this , I can't

38:11

do this anymore . So I think it helped

38:13

me get to that point faster .

38:15

Yeah , something that was interesting . That

38:17

happened to me as I started to realize that

38:19

when I was thought purging , as

38:22

I would call it I would consistently

38:24

write out I'm tired or

38:26

I'm so tired or I'm exhausted would be the

38:28

first thing I wrote out . And then I was

38:30

like , wait , why is that the first thing I

38:32

write out ? Am I tired ? Do I actually

38:35

think this ? Right now ? And that

38:37

was pretty big for me to realize , like

38:39

maybe I'm writing down thoughts

38:41

that I don't actually think anymore About

38:44

him too , like if I'm not tired

38:46

and if I'm not frustrated and if I'm not these

38:49

things , why am I saying it

38:51

? And so that was , yeah , important , and that

38:53

was a pretty important part to be then Would

38:55

that happen ? A while later , I was able to start

38:57

to try and question what those thoughts were

39:00

, rather than just letting them just be like no , this is it

39:02

. It's like what if it's not it ? Yeah

39:06

, yeah , yeah so I really , really

39:08

appreciate you talking through

39:10

this with me . I think one of the most helpful things

39:12

that people are going to see is how helpful

39:14

it was to hear you talk about All

39:17

the thoughts that you had , because I think you just

39:19

you know , even though you're healed from

39:21

it , it's like there's a way that you

39:23

talked about it that sounds like you know what it's all

39:25

it's like right here . It's

39:28

so clear and that people can really resonate

39:30

with the types of things that you said . So I really

39:32

appreciate you sharing you know the intricacies

39:35

of your story in talking

39:37

about this . I also know that

39:39

you have a program about rumination and

39:41

how to break rumination , so can you tell

39:43

us a little bit about that ?

39:45

Yeah , I actually have . Most of what

39:47

I do is kind of centered around that , mainly

39:49

because this was my biggest struggle

39:52

and it was hardest to overcome and

39:54

it was also the thing that I had the

39:56

least amount of resources over . So

39:59

I tried to . I tell people

40:01

all the time Like my goal with all

40:03

of this is to be the resource that I desperately

40:06

needed at that time and just didn't

40:08

have . So I do have

40:10

one-on-one coaching and I have like

40:12

a pretty pretty set out

40:14

for me and the people that you can help

40:16

them with that . But I obviously I coach

40:19

on everything like building self-worth

40:21

or whatever it may be . But

40:23

I could , I've coached on that a lot . Now

40:26

I have a group coaching and called unshackled and set

40:28

free . It's for For a session

40:31

total and we kind of break it down

40:33

into Four different

40:35

struggles that are commonly linked

40:37

to rumination and it's like your emotional management

40:39

, its anxiety managing triggers

40:42

, the brief that's associated with this

40:44

, with all this place and seeds into

40:46

the rumination , and so I have that

40:48

as well , but

40:51

probably like the best resource that's absolutely

40:54

focused . Rumination

40:57

is my online course and

40:59

it's a seven-week course . He's called narcissistic

41:02

recovery toolkit and it's a seven

41:04

week itself base and it gives

41:06

you Strategies to focus

41:08

on every week . So it's like okay , here's our topic

41:10

, what happens to you . Want

41:13

a neurological level Like that's week one

41:15

like this is what happens in the brain . This

41:17

is why it happens , this is why you're

41:19

struggling with it , it's normal , it's expected

41:22

and here's how we deal with it . And

41:24

then we do and I go into the next topic

41:26

and here's strategies and all of that . So it

41:28

gives you a specific focus

41:30

each week For a total of seven

41:32

weeks and there's also a journal that

41:34

goes with it . The journal it's

41:36

the same title narcissistic to

41:38

recovery close recovery toolkit , reflection

41:41

of journal , and you can either do

41:43

it in conjunction with the course or

41:45

you can just do it like Restain me on

41:47

a damn . But those two things are by far

41:49

very catered towards specifically

41:52

the struggling with remediation

41:54

.

41:55

Yeah , awesome . Thank you so much for sharing

41:57

those and I resonate with that so much because I

41:59

definitely Create resources

42:02

or think about this in terms of what I didn't , what I

42:04

could not find when I needed

42:06

it . So I think that's why these

42:08

podcasts with you goes to the smoothies , because we

42:10

have , we're coming from the same place . I'm just like

42:12

really wanting to be , that resource and I

42:15

know that this specific podcast is going to help a

42:17

lot of people .

42:18

Well , thank you , I appreciate it yeah .

42:20

Well , just tell us how to find you , and

42:22

I will put all your links in the show notes as

42:24

well , so people don't have to rest write

42:27

it down . But where can we find you online

42:29

?

42:30

So I am on a TikTok , facebook

42:33

, instagram and now threads , which is like

42:35

the newest one , the file . My handle

42:37

on Tiktok , which is my main platform

42:40

, is I was like yo under

42:42

four tray If that's pretty much what

42:44

it is everywhere with the exception of Instagram

42:46

and has a one at the end of

42:48

it . So I was like yo under four tray one

42:50

. I will just go ahead and tell you to be

42:53

aware . Now I'm family

42:55

and cool enough to have impersonator accounts

42:57

, so I only have one account on each . Be

43:01

aware .

43:01

Yeah .

43:06

And I've got . Oh

43:08

. Just

43:11

be aware , be aware of that . There's nothing

43:13

. Usually they put like something in the front of

43:15

it like another period or underscore Some

43:17

things . Yeah , but doesn't start with the letter I

43:19

, it's not me , oh , that's

43:24

where yeah ? That's where I'm at .

43:25

My favorite was when Lee hammock , mental

43:28

illness got it , had an impersonator account

43:30

and he posted like he kept posting about

43:32

it . And then he he posted like another

43:34

one , like I don't send good vibes , I

43:37

don't like all the things I like

43:39

, I don't . I'm not sending positive

43:41

healing . I don't have good vibes like like

43:43

it was just yeah , I can't

43:46

.

43:48

Same as me . Like I'm not gonna do zodiac

43:50

reading for you , I'm not gonna message you asking for

43:52

money . Yeah , none of that's gonna happen . So

43:54

, yeah , yeah , I Like

43:57

on a serious side of it , though , like they

43:59

, like I have noticed that these hackers

44:01

really are coming after , like

44:03

narcissistic abuse survivors , creators

44:06

, because they know our population . Yeah

44:08

, so just be aware and this isn't just with

44:10

me or Lee hammock or for you , we're anything

44:12

like that Just be very cautious . If

44:14

you have creators that reach

44:16

out to you , you know whatever

44:19

, like well , with positive DMs , but I'm

44:21

not going through my followers and messaging them

44:23

100%

44:26

, yeah , so just be very aware of it . It's

44:28

, it's not just that like it's . I mean , I know

44:30

, dr , not the boys have some , we've

44:32

got a couple . Like there's a lot of us

44:34

and , yeah , catherine Kline , she's got a

44:36

couple . So there's a lot of us that have impersonator

44:39

accounts . So please just be very cautious .

44:41

Yeah , and everybody was saying definitely

44:43

and those and all the names you just mentioned , they

44:45

would not reach out to you , being like do you need

44:47

help , you know ? Like that .

44:49

Yeah , I'm friends with all of them Like

44:51

, yeah , they would not be messaging . Yeah

44:53

, they would be messaging out for support , exactly

44:56

not to To

44:59

promote their zodiac reading business .

45:02

Yeah , they don't have time for that either . Yeah , yeah

45:06

, well , again , thank you so much . I'm

45:08

sure he'll be back soon , but I really

45:10

appreciate you being here and talking through this

45:12

with me .

45:13

Of course . Thank you for the honor of asking

45:15

me to come back , and it's a pleasure to be

45:17

here . I'm always