0:06

Welcome to the Relationship Recovery Podcast

0:09

hosted by Jessica Knight , a

0:11

certified life coach who specializes

0:13

in narcissistic and emotional abuse

0:15

. This podcast is intended

0:18

to help you identify manipulative

0:20

and abusive behavior , set boundaries

0:22

with yourself and others , and heal

0:25

the relationship with yourself so

0:27

you can learn to love in a healthy way

0:29

.

0:33

Hello and thank you so much for being here Today

0:36

. Carrie McFoy joins us

0:38

again . This time we go

0:40

through the different types

0:43

of personality disordered people

0:45

that we can come in contact with so

0:48

not just a narcissist , but a sociopath

0:50

, a psychopath and how

0:52

disorienting

0:55

it can be to start to realize

0:57

that a lot of disordered

0:59

people are in

1:01

society all of the time and

1:04

we may not notice or pick up on some

1:06

of the things that are happening

1:08

, and when we start to describe those things to other

1:11

people , they don't understand

1:13

. It's a core point in all of this . We

1:15

also will touch on how narcissism

1:18

is becoming a public

1:20

health issue , something that I

1:23

hope to be expanding on more

1:25

broadly in my work and

1:27

as I talk about this stuff . But the

1:30

fact that the family court

1:32

system is backed up . The

1:34

family court system also doesn't

1:37

always see the

1:39

issues for what they are in

1:41

cases , ie when

1:44

someone's being abused , the

1:46

issues of workplace abuse , partner

1:48

abuse , domestic violence , shelters

1:51

, the list goes on . But

1:53

it's very clear that , as

1:56

a light has been shed on narcissism

1:58

and on personality disorders in the last few

2:00

years , we're also seeing

2:02

an uptick in people talking

2:04

about a lot of the levels of abuse that they are

2:06

undergoing , and I

2:09

really think that this episode is going to help

2:11

you begin to unpack what that looks like

2:13

in your life what to start

2:15

to look out for and Carrie

2:17

shares part of her journey in which she started

2:20

to notice as she was feeling

2:22

. This is a really important episode

2:24

. Carrie is a really great resource . I

2:27

highly recommend following her on Instagram

2:29

Her handle is in the show notes as

2:31

well as on YouTube and on TikTok . She

2:34

posts videos almost every day . She goes live

2:36

twice a week . She runs a community

2:38

. She is a great , great resource

2:40

for understanding the

2:42

ins and outs of personality

2:45

disorder and how we would receive

2:47

it as the victim . I know this episode

2:49

is really going to help . As always , you

2:52

can find me at emotionalabusecoachcom

2:54

, at emotionalabusecoach , on Instagram

2:57

. If you're looking to

2:59

begin to understand and

3:01

dissect emotional abuse

3:03

, you would go to my website

3:05

, emotionalabusecoachcom , and

3:08

click on courses , because I have a course that

3:10

will begin to break down the patterns and help

3:13

you see what's going on . Hi

3:23

, carrie , thank you so much for coming back

3:25

and joining me today .

3:27

Thank you so much for having me back , jessica , I really appreciate

3:29

it .

3:29

I really appreciate it too . I have

3:32

really enjoyed talking to you about

3:34

narcissism , about personality

3:36

disorders , about abuse . Before

3:39

we dive in , I'd love for you to introduce

3:41

you and tell us a bit about what you do .

3:44

Yeah , thank you . I'm Dr Carrie Kerr McEvoy

3:46

. I'm a licensed psychologist with over 20 years

3:48

of counseling experience . I'm also

3:50

a narcissistic abuse survivor . You'd think

3:52

being a psychologist would somehow have

3:55

made me immune , but it didn't . This

3:57

is something that can happen to anybody at any

3:59

time . I think it's more prevalent than we

4:01

actually realize that it is .

4:04

Yeah , I think that once I started to

4:06

begin to heal from narcissistic abuse

4:08

and years after not

4:11

within the first month , but within

4:13

probably around now I started

4:15

to really realize that there are a lot of personality

4:17

disorder people around . I

4:20

can be aware of it , but most

4:22

of us are not . Today , I really

4:24

wanted to dive into what the personality

4:27

disorder actually is and

4:29

why that person

4:31

doesn't change , and how

4:33

we can begin to protect ourselves and identify

4:35

what that looks like

4:37

in society , so that we can have stricter

4:40

boundaries with ourselves and not feel like

4:42

it's our fault all the time . Can

4:45

you tell us what a personality disorder

4:47

is ?

4:48

Yeah , that's a great question because you'd

4:50

think that I would have had it nailed after

4:52

going through grad school . It wasn't actually until

4:55

I went through continued education recently

4:57

with Dr Gregory Luster that it

4:59

suddenly crystallized and made way more sense

5:01

to me . I think if you stand way back and

5:04

you look at the whole field of mental health

5:06

, we tend to think that

5:08

everything's the same . We tend to think that depression

5:10

and schizophrenia and Alzheimer's

5:13

and personality disorders are all

5:15

part of the same entity

5:18

, that's in this bucket . It's just that maybe you

5:20

have ADHD and maybe somebody else might

5:22

get diagnosed with depression , but

5:24

that these are treatable situations

5:26

, that with just the right kind of therapy

5:29

and the right kind of medication that people get over it . That's

5:31

actually not the case . There are different

5:33

types of mental health problems

5:36

. I think that's the best way to say it is to think of them

5:38

as conditions . That's the things that

5:40

we suffer from and you know

5:42

something's wrong . If you have a depression , you

5:44

know that's not your normal

5:46

self , some things different . Then

5:49

there are things that are immutable , things

5:51

that are permanent qualities

5:53

of ourselves . For example , your IQ

5:55

level is pretty stable . It

5:58

may fluctuate a few points , but you're

6:00

not going to suddenly go from a genius

6:02

to somebody who's not . Unless something

6:04

really catastrophically bad happened

6:06

to you . If you have an average IQ

6:08

, you're probably not going to raise it significantly

6:11

higher . It would be extremely difficult to do

6:13

that Not possible actually . Well

6:15

, personality disorders are called disorders

6:18

because there are things that are wrong in

6:20

the personality . These are hardwired

6:22

qualities of an individual . It

6:25

would be like making somebody is an introvert

6:27

into an extrovert . Very difficult

6:29

to do Would basically , they'd have

6:31

to go against their natural instinct

6:33

, the way that they're made . Narcissists

6:36

and as well as other personality disorders are

6:38

born with certain vulnerabilities

6:40

, certain weaknesses that make

6:42

them prone to seeing the world in a

6:44

specific way . That's a personality

6:46

disorder .

6:48

If they are prone to seeing the world in a different

6:50

way or a specific way , then that

6:52

really points to why it is

6:54

so hard for them to change the

6:56

way that they think and maybe why else they don't

6:58

change the way that they think .

7:00

Exactly , exactly . That

7:02

would be like going out and telling an ADHD person to stop

7:04

being disorganized or don't be so scattered

7:07

and distracted . They're not going to be

7:09

. No , yes , medication comes in and

7:11

, for a period of time , will help

7:14

diminish that quality , but they

7:16

themselves will always be

7:18

on the more distractible

7:20

side of things . That's just part of who

7:22

they are . I'm autistic . I'm very literal

7:25

in the way I approach the world . It's hard for

7:27

me to even conceive of deception , for

7:29

you to tell me to be different . I

7:31

don't even know what that would mean , because you're essentially

7:33

saying Carrie , don't be Carrie .

7:36

Yeah , Wow . It's really interesting

7:38

because it's like for me , if

7:41

someone came to me and said you're doing

7:43

this , it hurts me , I don't

7:45

want you to do this , I probably would immediately

7:48

be like , oh my God , what did I do when

7:50

I have engaged with narcissists ? The immediate

7:53

answer is a no .

7:54

Right . But even your response

7:56

, though , is an indication of your personality

7:58

type , though Right . So what

8:00

you just indicated to me , if I was to say

8:03

, okay , if I'm thinking of a personality index

8:05

, how agreeable and open is

8:07

this person ? How cooperative are they ? Do

8:09

they have a pretty good internal

8:11

driven level of integrity ? Are

8:14

they a person who's extroverted ? What I just heard you

8:16

tell me was that you're somebody

8:18

who tends to be an easygoing

8:20

, cooperative person , that you

8:22

value connection and

8:25

teamwork over your individual

8:27

way of doing things . Now , see a

8:29

person with a personality disorder . Whatever way it's

8:31

done let's take the narcissist , for example they

8:34

tend to be on the antagonistic

8:36

end of that same quality . They're

8:38

not agreeable . So when they hear that they're

8:40

like this person's trying to control me , why

8:43

would they say that ? Who are they to think that what I

8:45

do is not right ? They hear it through

8:47

the grid of antagonism

8:49

. You hear it through the grid of agreeableness

8:52

, and these are not kind of flexible

8:54

qualities . These are baked into

8:57

your personality , yeah .

8:59

Yeah , so you just said that

9:01

it's on the side of the spectrum

9:04

, that they're on complete opposite

9:06

ends , and so would you say that a narcissist

9:08

and a sociopath are on

9:11

the same side of the spectrum there ?

9:13

Yeah , they are . That's why in the

9:15

DSM-5 , there are four personality

9:17

types that are all labeled antagonistic

9:20

. Okay , the antagonistic group is

9:22

borderline personality disorder , narcissistic

9:24

personality disorder , anti-social personality

9:27

disorder and histrionic personality

9:29

disorder . They are bent from

9:31

that antagonistic angle opposite

9:34

of those who would be seen as more cooperative

9:36

and agreeable , right , okay

9:38

.

9:39

So what would you say are

9:41

the differences , or the core differences , in

9:44

a narcissist and a sociopath

9:46

in the way that they engage with people ?

9:49

Yeah , they're very close to each other and

9:51

it's rare to me an anti-social

9:53

personality disorder that doesn't have some narcissistic

9:56

traits . They often kind of co-occur

9:58

. So that's the confusing

10:00

part . That's hard . You think you've met the

10:02

narcissist but you don't realize they

10:04

also have psychopathic or sociopathic

10:07

tendencies . So that's the confusion

10:09

. But I think the big difference

10:11

between these two is their law-breaking

10:14

, the fact that they feel rules don't

10:16

apply to them and they're ruthless or callous

10:18

in the way they approach the world . To me that

10:20

would be the big way to identify the

10:22

two . So if you get somebody who's increasingly

10:25

callous , increasingly ruthless about

10:27

what they're doing , increasingly willing to

10:29

go beyond maybe what

10:31

we would see as social mores or

10:33

what's appropriate , you probably are not

10:35

just dealing with a narcissist , You're dealing with someone

10:37

who's more on the psychopathic end

10:39

as well . Now there

10:41

are pure , just psychopaths and sociopaths

10:44

without narcissistic traits , but they're

10:46

not as common . The psychopath

10:48

without that would be just somebody who walks

10:51

completely through their own drum , thinks

10:53

that all rules are ridiculous and is going to do

10:55

exactly the way they want to do things , the way

10:57

that they want to do them . You won't see the same

10:59

kind of jealous concern

11:02

about other people . They just head

11:04

in their own direction and ignore

11:06

everybody . They're almost cold . They

11:09

feel very robotic when you meet them .

11:12

Yeah , sometimes I reflect back to me

11:14

before this journey and something that I

11:16

realized is that there have been

11:18

a lot of people that I've been around that have had

11:20

psychopathic sociopath

11:22

almost ever and I never

11:25

picked up on it because I always thought a psychopath

11:27

and sociopath in these larger words were just

11:29

like serial killers . They weren't like the people

11:32

that we interact with at college or

11:34

at a law firm or like that . They

11:36

weren't just quote , unquote regular people in the

11:38

world . But now I know that

11:40

anybody could have those qualities . Yeah

11:42

, exactly .

11:43

We meet them way more than we think

11:45

that we do . They just hide really

11:47

well and I think that because of we

11:50

focus on the serial killers and we tend to lump

11:52

them all together , majority of them never

11:54

break the law , so you're not going

11:56

to see that necessarily . For

11:58

example , this was research that came out

12:00

I don't know if it's still accurate , but it was accurate when I was in

12:02

graduate school that those who are in surgical

12:05

end of medicine tend to have more psychopathic

12:08

traits . Now think about that . What

12:10

does it take to be able to cut into another human

12:12

being ? Well , you want to be rather dispassionate , see

12:15

people as objects , not have a lot of empathy

12:17

towards them . Sometimes you want them

12:19

to break the bit of the rules if your life is

12:21

on the line , and maybe that technique is not

12:23

always warranted , but they think because , based upon

12:25

their expertise , it's going to work they may break

12:27

that rule and do that . Now , do

12:30

I want them necessarily working with me if I'm

12:32

a hospital personnel administrator

12:34

? Probably not . Do you see what I'm saying

12:36

? But that may not be the easiest

12:38

person to work with , but it also

12:40

probably makes them good at what they do .

12:42

Yeah , that actually makes a lot of sense . It also makes

12:45

a lot of sense why the same personality

12:47

types show up in law enforcement too , or

12:49

even narcissistic . It's like , for some

12:51

of the things that you need to do and be able

12:53

to handle , you can't have the empathy

12:55

of me , for example

12:57

. This is a story that really doesn't make

13:00

any sense , but I'm going to tell it anyway . The

13:02

other day I live in an apartment

13:04

complex in a city and there was

13:07

a rat like there's a rat trap outside

13:09

Really not pleasant to look at , but

13:11

whatever and I continued

13:13

to walk and I kept hearing this bird . And

13:15

I kept hearing this bird and I reached out and I looked over

13:18

and there's this bird I'm going to call it a

13:20

her for no reason at all . The foot

13:22

was caught in the trap . My

13:25

first thought was oh my God , if my daughter was here she'd

13:27

be so upset . My second thought was oh my God

13:30

, how am I going to help the bird ? And then

13:32

I really felt like I had a traumatic experience

13:34

about this bird . I

13:37

was able to release the foot from the trap

13:39

and the bird was not in good shape

13:41

and there really wasn't anything else I could do other

13:43

than give it a good ending

13:45

in some way , but it really did affect

13:48

me . I think

13:50

all day that day

13:52

I just was trying to tell myself it wasn't

13:54

a big deal , when it was really

13:56

like that was really sad , like the bird was suffering

13:58

. I watched the bird suffer . I couldn't like the bird

14:01

kept running away for me with this little trap and

14:04

I just kept thinking like there's no way

14:06

I can handle this , like if this was , like

14:08

if I was a doctor , you know , or something like that

14:10

. Like there are some things I just can't

14:12

, I can't do , and sometimes I

14:14

think like all this healing has made

14:17

me a lot Colder in some

14:19

ways in the world , but then there's moments

14:21

like that that remind me no

14:23

, this is actually who you really are . You know

14:25

, like these situations and these people have

14:27

made you more on guard , but

14:29

not colder internally . I

14:32

appreciate what you said at the beginning of like a

14:34

lot of these things are just sort of like who you are

14:36

at your core right , right , and that's

14:38

a really good point that you're making .

14:40

I know that I would love to follow up

14:42

on that . I have so many survivors

14:45

tell me that they don't . They struggle with who they're

14:47

become , who they're becoming or who they've become

14:49

, and they feel like that has converted

14:52

them or changed them or made them colder . But

14:54

I think there's a way to reframe that , to think of

14:56

it differently . You are essentially the way

14:58

that you always have been , but what you ? What is

15:00

changed ? As you've learned that the world

15:02

is not as safe as you Once presumed

15:04

that it was , that you had made a common miss

15:07

. You make the same error that the narcissist makes

15:09

. Nurses this make the assumption that everybody's

15:11

operating on the same rules , same

15:14

frame that they are , which is , it's competitive

15:16

and everybody's up for themselves . Well

15:18

, those who are not make the same error . We

15:20

assume that the world is a great place , everybody's

15:22

a team member and wants to get along with everybody

15:25

, and then we find out that that's not true . So

15:27

what I'm hearing you say and I think this is a really

15:29

good point for for your listeners , but

15:31

for all of us who are for healing is to

15:34

know that as we become more

15:36

careful about who we trust . We're

15:38

not colder , we're just being wiser

15:40

.

15:41

Yeah wiser , and it's also

15:43

been a big need for me to be able to set boundaries

15:46

and learn how to set boundaries but

15:48

people that don't want to accept them , and

15:50

what that really means for me , like and

15:53

how , how . It is more

15:55

of a me taking care of me thing rather

15:57

than a this is against this person

15:59

type of thing .

16:00

Right , right , exactly , exactly

16:03

. And at first it feels really foreign

16:05

because that's not the way that you have learned

16:07

to operate , it's not your normal

16:09

way of being you .

16:11

Yeah , and I think , like in relationships

16:14

, where most I think you know I mean obviously

16:16

a lot of us also had narcissistic parents

16:18

, but most of this podcast is focused

16:20

on Relationships . So in

16:22

relationships , one thing that

16:25

I noticed is that , like at

16:27

the beginning of relationship , I'm always looking

16:30

at my own behavior , you know . I know

16:32

that I have unhealthy coping mechanisms . I

16:34

also know that , like I have

16:36

resolved trauma and unresolved trauma

16:38

, you know , like I do care

16:40

about how I show up in a relationship

16:43

, I also probably have , like you know

16:45

, wanting my perfectionism comes in there too

16:47

of wanting to be like the perfect partner , but

16:49

with a disordered person , what

16:52

that has led me to is Overcompensating

16:55

, over-excusing and

16:58

turning myself into a pretzel to try and

17:00

get this person to be happy or to

17:02

accept me or do Just be in

17:04

the relationship , when I'm

17:06

not even realizing that that

17:08

that's who I'm dealing with , and so I'm

17:11

curious if you have any Tips

17:13

for somebody to be able to

17:15

almost like shadow light . I'm gonna

17:17

rephrase that because I don't want this podcast

17:19

to be like let's teach you how to diagnose people , you

17:21

know which ? Obviously it's not , but it's like Some

17:24

things that we can look for if

17:26

we are in the beginning of a relationship or even

17:29

in the middle of the relationship with someone , and

17:31

we're starting to be like , okay , this doesn't

17:33

seem quote-unquote normal and

17:35

maybe it doesn't seem like what my friends are going

17:38

through . It doesn't seem what I've known in

17:40

the past . It actually seems like there's rules that are different

17:42

for them and me . What

17:44

are some ways that we can , like find a way

17:46

to pause and just say , okay

17:48

, here are some things that are going on here

17:50

.

17:51

Right . I think the best way to

17:53

start with that , because it is really tricky

17:56

is Not so much to look for red

17:58

flags although because we've talked a lot about

18:00

that and and the thing is is that there

18:02

are people that probably could avoid triggering

18:05

a lot of red flags . Initially , we may not

18:07

pick up on them right enough what right away ? But

18:09

what we can always do is know

18:11

ourselves enough to know how we feel in

18:13

our own skin , to know when things start to

18:15

feel uncomfortable in our own skin

18:18

, when we start to feel pinched

18:20

or Lesser than

18:22

when we're starting to find

18:24

ourselves rephrasing or reframing

18:26

things because we know it might not go over

18:28

well , when we find ourselves

18:30

avoiding certain topics altogether

18:32

or not wanting to go home

18:35

or Holding our breath

18:37

when they come in through the door . These

18:39

are signals that we're being asked

18:42

to modify ourselves and that there's something

18:44

about the situation that doesn't Leave

18:46

us feeling completely safe and

18:49

that we can't be our most authentic self . I

18:51

think that's the best indicator . If

18:54

we can learn to really turn that up

18:56

, we would then start to pick up

18:58

situations that are super subtle

19:00

but are impinging on

19:03

us and asking us to change .

19:05

I love that . I feel like that just set off like a

19:07

bunch of light bulbs in my head around

19:09

, like asking us to change

19:11

right , and it's not like hey , this thing

19:13

really hurts me . I would like you to like look at your behavior

19:16

. It's no , you're not seeing it right .

19:18

Yeah , yeah , because when we make a statement

19:20

back out , when we like , save you that example

19:22

you just gave , I this hurt my feelings

19:25

, can you do this differently ? What you actually

19:27

were getting first was , I feel

19:29

, a permission to say to you Things that

19:31

are hurtful to you , because I'm

19:33

not very sensitive to your feelings and I

19:35

want you to tolerate that . And

19:37

so , actually , you're getting the change message

19:39

first . Hmm , right

19:41

, right , you don't like it . So then

19:43

you give them back another change message

19:46

, just saying wait , wait , wait . I don't want to change . You

19:48

need to be more sensitive to me , please don't do this

19:50

. And then they say , well , no , I'm not changing

19:52

, but we shouldn't have been asked to

19:54

change in the first place . If a person

19:56

who's truly respectful and cares about your

19:58

feelings , they walk in and they see

20:01

you in a bad space , they're gonna check in with you

20:03

, they're not gonna be cruel to you , they're gonna

20:05

be mindful of that and manage around

20:07

that they won't just like walk over

20:09

you . We shouldn't have to hold our breath

20:12

around . That's even holding our breath . We're changing

20:14

, or changing person , or

20:17

Jumping up and looking busy when they come

20:19

home . We're changing for that person . All of that

20:21

is that we're being asked to be modified

20:23

, and if we can pay attention to the degree

20:25

that this person's putting us into some kind of

20:27

a box and then resist

20:29

that or Use that at least

20:32

as a cue to say , hmm , this is not the healthiest

20:34

relationship , then I think we could get out

20:36

of these relationships a lot faster , a lot

20:38

earlier , before we get in way

20:40

too deep and it's really tough .

20:42

Yeah , that's such a good point and it just I mean

20:44

you reflect back to this client that I talked

20:46

to today that has a lot of guilt

20:48

and , like I , gang a lot of shame around

20:50

some of Basically

20:53

like there was a very financially abusive situation

20:55

and she sought to basically Try

20:58

and find ways to spend , like

21:00

she had her own credit card and spent

21:02

money and it wasn't a big thing , it wasn't a big deal

21:04

, it was just . But the amount of shame that

21:06

she had was huge . But the change

21:08

that she couldn't make that I was really

21:10

trying to point out was that at the beginning of the

21:12

relationship , when the money started

21:14

to be controlled and there was rules around the money

21:16

and things that could be bought and not be bought and

21:19

who got to make those decisions , like that's

21:21

a big freakin deal and to just

21:23

even be able to think about Do I

21:25

have to change who I am , in my behavior and even

21:27

my likes and dislikes . To like , not

21:30

argue with this person is a huge

21:32

deal , you know right , yeah ?

21:34

that's all a request to modify you . You're

21:36

being modified , yeah , because if

21:38

you think back to it , if you go back to that , we

21:40

all know that we're an object to the narcissist

21:42

. They don't really see people as

21:44

fully humans with their own wishes

21:47

and dreams and ideas and needs . They

21:49

come in and they have a pretty set agenda

21:51

and the agenda is they want to utilize your

21:53

strengths and then they want to kind of

21:56

like , make them feels better by

21:58

putting you down . If we can see

22:00

that , as that already is a modification

22:02

to you , minished you

22:04

as a person . So we can get sensitive

22:06

to that , that sense of being diminished . We

22:09

can get better at picking up . This

22:11

is not a good relationship , but here's the problem

22:13

, why we're not good at it . We're told from

22:15

an early at eight , from early age that we

22:17

should get along with everybody . What

22:20

, how many times have you been hugged or

22:22

Forced to shake someone's hand or talk

22:24

to someone as a kid that you didn't want to ? Something

22:26

about that person either freaked you out , or

22:28

it was an unknown situation , or you kind of got dumped

22:30

into it , but everybody told you to stand

22:32

up . And then you know , grow up and deal with

22:34

it . We get these message all the time . And

22:36

so what happens over the course of our life is

22:38

we then turn the volume down

22:41

and Stop paying attention to

22:43

our sensation , our bodies that

22:45

tell us that something here is off . Yeah

22:47

, even that situation is a kid . That was

22:50

an off situation . Maybe that person

22:52

rushed you , you know , maybe they were kind of insensitive

22:54

about body space , maybe they had

22:56

bad breath . I mean probably , first

22:58

you think back , there was some reason . Even

23:00

those of us who have young kids , there's reasons

23:03

why our kids don't want to show

23:05

up . Maybe they're scared and anxious , but

23:07

maybe the other person is too much . But

23:09

what we've done is we essentially tell

23:11

them your feelings don't matter . What

23:14

matters is you modify for the situation

23:16

. That's the polite thing to do .

23:18

Yeah , right , oh my god . Yeah

23:20

, I mean as a , as a mother to a young child

23:22

, I definitely resonate with that

23:24

and I think about it all the time because

23:26

I don't force her into those moments

23:29

, you know , and I'm very conscious of that of like

23:31

not putting her in positions

23:33

that are like you should do

23:35

this Because of this unwritten rule

23:37

that I don't have an explanation to , but

23:40

like it can come across like a little standoff

23:42

, as you know . I can come across like I am

23:45

not teaching her manners , but at the end of the day , I

23:47

care more about her being able to

23:49

decipher and to trust her intuition and her

23:51

gut .

23:52

Then Then , just people pleasing

23:55

you even think about it from a . Why is

23:57

that moment happening ? Generally , it's because we're

23:59

accommodating a not healthy person need

24:02

over the need of our children . Mm-hmm

24:04

right right every situation I

24:06

can think of if I recall me raising

24:08

my kids and I generally tried not

24:10

to do this , but it I was usually

24:12

accommodating toxic behavior , yeah

24:15

, and I shouldn't have . And then they have

24:17

that person fuss or other people like well , they

24:19

need to know , no , nobody needs to show

24:21

up for that . I think that's our whole cultural

24:24

problem is that we have Acclimatized

24:27

to toxic behavior to think that it's normal

24:29

, to the point that will then pile on

24:31

victims for having any kind of reaction

24:34

. Victims are wrong because they miss

24:36

the Fred flags . Victims are wrong because they stay

24:38

too long . Victims are wrong because they leave

24:40

. Victims are mean what ? What we're not talking

24:42

about is why are there people who

24:44

think it's okay to pray on other people ?

24:47

Yeah , well , and also it's

24:49

helping people understand and have a place

24:51

for them to be able to like talk about these things

24:53

and figure out what's even healthy for them . Because

24:56

if they grew up in a home where they

24:59

were told that you know , you have to be kind to

25:01

everybody , you're like give everybody a chance , you

25:03

know , or whatever whatever the messaging was , it's

25:06

not allowing us to really have that internal

25:08

compass of who do

25:10

I feel safe around ? What does feeling safe

25:12

actually mean ? You know , like

25:14

, how do I listen to myself ? It's

25:16

almost like that . Yeah , I mean I definitely

25:18

didn't have that when I was a kid . I didn't have like someone

25:20

that like really thought about and cared about

25:22

my inner wisdom , and I think that

25:24

it took me until in

25:26

my 30s to be able to really

25:29

listen to myself . But even then I

25:31

know that I felt like I was

25:33

being mean by taking care of myself .

25:35

Yeah , me too . I mean people

25:38

want to know why I stayed so long which is

25:40

ironic because you and I were talking before

25:42

we got on the taping is that I was being

25:44

accused that I stayed two years too long in that

25:46

relationship because of great sex , what

25:49

. I

25:51

think that's a weird way to sort of order

25:53

the world . But I'll tell you why . The reason

25:55

I stayed too long . There are two main reasons . One

25:58

was the financial ramifications

26:00

were too grave and I was enraged

26:02

around it and felt it was so unfair that I refused

26:05

to walk out and let that person have that

26:07

kind of advantage and rob me

26:09

of my children . And it was our

26:11

legacy . He was in a rob us of our legacy

26:13

. That was number one . But the second

26:15

one is that I didn't like to hurt

26:17

people's feelings and for me to walk

26:19

out and say I don't like this felt

26:21

really selfish , felt very

26:24

difficult . It wasn't because I had a low self-esteem

26:26

. No , I mean I had a successful

26:28

practice . I had already was writing

26:31

in that year . That second year was named top

26:34

writer on Cora . I mean I

26:36

knew that I was good at what I did . I did

26:38

not suffer from low self-esteem , but

26:40

what I struggled with is . I struggled with

26:42

really not liking to be hurtful or

26:44

harmful to other people and for some reason

26:47

me standing up from my right , I got in the

26:49

message , particularly as a woman , to

26:51

do that was rude , yeah , and

26:54

I think that's . Maybe that's what as a culture

26:56

, we're missing is that we have socialized

26:59

women's compliance , and

27:01

I do know that men get stuck in this too . So I'm

27:03

not trying to ignore that . This doesn't . It does happen

27:05

to men , I know that . But it's even

27:07

worse for women because we're from a little

27:09

age to like keep your legs together and walk

27:11

like a lady and don't chew with

27:14

your mouth open and don't run . I mean , we hear

27:16

all these messages about how you're supposed

27:18

to be , and that includes how you're supposed

27:20

to show up and not intimidate or

27:22

upset or threaten or

27:24

usurp a person's power , particularly

27:27

men's power , in your life . Yeah , be

27:29

a lady .

27:30

Be a lady . Yeah , yeah , yeah

27:32

. I love my grandma to pieces

27:34

, but she definitely said that to me all the time Like

27:37

be a lady , show up and be a lady . That

27:39

like a be lady , like and I'd be like fuck

27:41

. That you know Probably wasn't

27:43

exactly here . And also why I couldn't stay

27:45

in narcissistic or sociopathic relationships

27:47

because I was , like I always say , like I

27:49

spit myself out because I couldn't adhere

27:52

to the rules that they had for me . Even if I

27:54

tried , it was impossible for

27:56

me . Like I just like

27:58

I would get into fight after fight after fight

28:00

and like blow things out of proportion and

28:02

like be like , oh my God , I keep thinking

28:05

I can stay in this , but I can't

28:07

, because I guess my intuition

28:09

, my inner wisdom , just with like fine

28:11

ways to spit me out . I could not agree to what

28:13

they would want me to agree to .

28:15

I love that . I love that I feel the same

28:17

, only in a different way . I really don't like to be offensive

28:19

to other people and this

28:21

may be unique to me , I don't know , I

28:24

haven't heard a lot of people express it . But to know

28:26

that I am hurting you actually

28:28

physically hurts me . I feel pain

28:31

when I see that I'm being unkind

28:33

to you . I don't like it so I avoid it . That's

28:35

super . It's not even about wanting you to

28:37

be happy or like me . I just don't want

28:40

to hurt you . And in hurting you

28:42

includes shaming you or making

28:44

you uncomfortable or putting you in an awkward

28:46

position . I don't like that . But

28:49

here's the thing Narcissists , they

28:51

actually are low responding to

28:54

emotional distress like

28:56

that , and they're low . And they're also low on

28:58

empathy , not only empathy to others

29:00

, but empathy to themselves . They're just

29:02

not very empathic . So that means

29:04

they're not aware nor care nor

29:07

feel that impact they have on

29:09

other people . So here I am hypersensitive

29:12

, trying not to hurt anybody around

29:14

me because I don't want to be hurt and I don't want them to

29:16

hurt . And then that you get into this relationship

29:18

with somebody who actually is the opposite

29:20

, who just sort of like barrels around

29:22

, sort of like a bowl in a china shop

29:24

, bashing things over and not

29:27

really caring , and then , on top of it , whenever

29:29

you complain , say it's your fault that this is happening

29:31

. So it really puts victims in a bad

29:34

spot if they're bent like that .

29:36

Yeah , yeah , well , when

29:39

you had that image , it really made me feel like

29:41

I guess I was picturing

29:43

how many people are in the world

29:45

right now that don't even know that they're dealing

29:47

with somebody who is a narcissist

29:49

or has narcissistic traits or sociopathic

29:52

traits , and they are just like trying

29:55

to fit into this box that they're never going to be able to

29:57

fit in because it's not really meant

29:59

to have anybody fit in it at the end of the day . Yeah

30:01

, I was listening to this talk this free

30:04

talk actually by Dr Romani

30:06

at the end of August , and she

30:08

only touched on this lightly , but it really stuck

30:10

out to me . She said we need to

30:12

start to talk about how narcissism is

30:15

a public health issue , and

30:17

I believe what she was pointing to was

30:19

the fact that , like there are so

30:22

many undiagnosed narcissists in the

30:24

world or rather , all of the

30:26

narcissists in the world , for them pretty much are undiagnosed

30:29

, but we are dealing with them every day

30:31

as if they are a healthy , well-intentioned

30:34

person , when they're

30:36

not , and it's perpetuating

30:39

. I have a feeling that you probably

30:41

took that course too .

30:43

Did you ? I did , I was there , yeah , yeah

30:45

, you know . To follow up on that , I

30:47

asked Sandra Brown what percentage of the world is predatory

30:49

? I mean outright predatory . She said

30:51

20% Mm . Here's

30:54

a . Go , think of that . That's one in five . One

30:56

out of five people you meet is actually

30:58

has completely not

31:01

good motivations for what they're doing . They have

31:03

ulterior motives for what they're doing , or at

31:05

least motives that wouldn't benefit you . Maybe

31:07

they're good for them , but it wouldn't benefit

31:09

you . Years ago my supervisor

31:12

back in the day when I was counseling

31:14

and being trained , was the chairman

31:16

of the disciplinary committee for the state

31:18

, which means he then heard

31:20

all the troubled situations

31:23

that therapists got themselves into or psychologists

31:25

got themselves into in that state and then they

31:27

as a committee would decide does that person

31:29

get to hold their license or not ? Do they get a suspended

31:32

? Do they need supervision ? So he's seeing really

31:34

awful abuses and

31:36

I asked him once I said what percentage of the

31:38

world do you consider healthy ? And

31:41

he said 7% .

31:43

Oh my God , that's so much lower

31:45

than I would have imagined .

31:47

Yeah . So imagine this You're walking

31:49

through the world . Only less than one

31:51

person less than one out of 10 person

31:53

probably is reasonably healthily

31:56

functioning , with good ego strength . Then

31:59

it's able to take care of their emotions or

32:01

have realistic goals , have

32:03

good insights into themselves or able

32:06

to soothe themselves when they get upset

32:08

, don't kind of impulsively lose it . They

32:11

show good judgment . Only one out of 10

32:13

people probably is doing a really good job

32:15

at that . Let's just say it's not a continuum really

32:18

good job at that , but one out of five

32:20

not only are not doing a good job at it

32:22

, but on top of it it's predatory

32:24

. Yeah , that's not the way I've

32:26

seen the world . When I walk through the world , I

32:29

don't characterize it that

32:31

way . I mean , next time you're on a busy

32:33

street like downtown , chicago or New

32:35

York or wherever , imagine you

32:37

realizing the majority of the people probably

32:39

might step on your toe and some of them

32:42

might deliberately step on that toe

32:44

. Yeah , but even

32:46

that then to me . Then , if you think of it that way

32:48

, that then comes back to your comment of I

32:50

feel cold . Well , if

32:52

you were in a dangerous world , you

32:54

would be , or even , let's just say that if

32:56

we lived in a blizzard , we would wear

32:58

a lot of garments to keep ourselves warm

33:01

. When we live in an unhealthy world

33:03

, we should do more to keep ourselves safe

33:05

. And we don't Right . That's

33:08

not coldness as just being wise . Yeah

33:10

.

33:11

If somebody is listening to this and they're like , okay , how

33:13

can I begin to learn more about

33:15

this topic ? How can I begin to

33:17

decipher what is even

33:20

healthy or what is

33:22

a personality disorder , or

33:24

am I with a depersonally disorder person

33:26

? What would you recommend that they do or where

33:28

they might go for some additional resources

33:31

?

33:31

Well , I think there's a lot of free things online

33:33

. I know following you and online and following

33:36

me are great ways to go . I offer

33:38

a live every week where I actually take those

33:41

questions , and I have a podcast myself

33:43

where Tara and I tackle these

33:45

topics . I think education

33:47

is the first line , but also , like I said

33:49

, really learning to tune into your

33:51

body , recognizing the sign

33:53

when you're becoming a little less than or more

33:55

careful or not quite

33:58

who you normally are , when you're completely by

34:00

yourself In a safe world . You

34:02

should be yourself all the time . I

34:05

love that , yeah . And if you're not able

34:07

to do that , then ask okay , how

34:10

am I shifting and with whom am I shifting

34:12

, and what am I ignoring about this situation

34:15

that maybe I need to pay more attention to ? I

34:17

think if we started to be more careful

34:19

about that , we would have a safer world

34:21

. We got safer people in our world

34:24

and we'd probably learn to be more

34:26

content with ourselves . So I

34:28

think that's a great way to start is to learn

34:30

how to really bring your best self

34:32

forth and support that , protect that

34:34

. The same way , if you lived in a blizzard

34:36

, you would not walk out naked , you would just wouldn't

34:38

do that we need to not walk out unclothed

34:42

psychologically when we walk out into the

34:44

world , but also to just keep

34:46

educating yourself and looking

34:48

into that . I always think coaching and counseling

34:51

is a great thing to do . I have an online

34:53

membership club where people can go to

34:55

process where they're at in a relationship

34:58

, why they're having troubles making different decisions

35:00

and how to make sense of

35:02

it . And I'm also thinking about I so

35:04

far haven't really gotten off the

35:06

fence of going to do this or not , but I've been really

35:08

debating whether or not to have a group coaching

35:10

, a live group coaching called Predator

35:13

Detection Masterclass , and it's how to

35:15

spot and avoid predatory people and

35:18

it's not just how do you spot the red flags . You're

35:20

going to tell that that's not my main focus . Mine

35:22

is how do you navigate tricky relationships

35:24

when you get into it and realize this person's manipulating

35:26

you ? Because that's where we get stuck . It isn't

35:28

necessarily . I think a lot of us do

35:31

pretty good now at these days they

35:34

say no drama , my dating app not interested

35:36

. But what do we do when we get somebody

35:38

who said if you said to them , don't call me

35:40

after or text me after 8 o'clock

35:42

and they text at 8.01 and then they get all

35:44

over you for holding the line . There's

35:46

where we get in trouble those tiny little microcosms

35:49

that are moments of aggression that we don't

35:51

know what to do . We get trapped and our own

35:54

bent , our own niceness , makes

35:56

us then accommodate into a toxic

35:58

person like yep , there we go , I

36:01

got them , I know where I can push them , and then they

36:03

take that inch and becomes a mile

36:05

.

36:05

Yeah , yeah , well , that a class

36:08

like that , a masterclass like that , sounds so

36:10

helpful and , as

36:12

you know , when I reach out to you with this topic

36:14

, I had no idea that that was in like in

36:16

the works or in the possible works . But I think you're really

36:18

.

36:19

Yeah , I've got it all outlined , but I

36:21

just need to know there's interest , because

36:23

I won't put all the effort into building

36:25

it if there's not the interest . But yeah , I have

36:27

an outline and I'm personally super excited

36:30

what the class I would like to take . But yeah

36:32

, that may not be a good reason to do it .

36:35

Well , if somebody is listening to this and there is interest

36:37

, you know , in a course

36:40

or a masterclass just to begin to identify

36:42

some of these , you know predatory

36:44

behaviors , just email

36:46

me at Jessica Jessica night coaching dot

36:48

com and I can sort of begin to keep a list

36:50

for Carrie and then we can see

36:53

if we can get this going . Or Instagram

36:55

DM me , which most of you know

36:57

, add emotional abuse coach . But I

36:59

think that if there is interest

37:01

, let us know and that way

37:03

we can actually , you know , carrie can actually put

37:05

this together and , of course , I'll promote it and

37:08

I also will take it , because this

37:10

is definitely something that I guess I

37:12

never just like , how the healing journey is

37:15

never really going to end . I

37:17

also think that learning about the

37:19

ins and outs of personal discharges , personality

37:21

disorders , what is healthy , what

37:23

is not healthy , is a lifelong journey

37:26

to I do too , I do too

37:28

.

37:28

I think I'm always always learning . It's always

37:30

a process .

37:31

Carrie , thank you so much for joining me . I

37:33

have loved our conversation and I'm sure you'll

37:35

be back again . If you don't mind

37:37

, can you just share where people can find

37:40

you and where your podcast , what the name of your podcast

37:42

is and where it's hosted ?

37:44

Sure , yeah , no , you can find me on most

37:46

social media platforms at Carrie McAvoy

37:48

PhD . It's just run together

37:50

Carrie McAvoy PhD . My website's

37:52

the same , and then the podcast is

37:55

called Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse

37:57

, and Wherever Podcasts Are Played

37:59

.

38:00

And I will have all your links in the show notes so that people

38:02

can easily find you too Great . Thank

38:04

you so much for this interview . I really appreciate it .

38:06

It's always fun talking to you .

38:08

Thank you so much , I really appreciate it .