0:06

Welcome to the Relationship Recovery Podcast

0:09

hosted by Jessica Knight , a

0:11

certified life coach who specializes

0:13

in narcissistic and emotional abuse

0:15

. This podcast is intended

0:18

to help you identify manipulative

0:20

and abusive behavior , set boundaries

0:22

with yourself and others , and heal

0:25

the relationship with yourself so

0:27

you can learn to love in a healthy way

0:29

.

0:33

Hello , on today's podcast we have Ben

0:35

Taylor . Ben Taylor is a self-aware

0:38

narcissist and he is back to talk

0:40

about how would you break up with a narcissist

0:42

. We go through a lot of various

0:44

topics , such as hoovering , discarding

0:47

, shame , blame and

0:50

control all things that are very

0:52

present in a narcissistic relationship

0:54

. We also talk about some beginning steps

0:56

of how to leave and how to get right with reality

0:59

so that you can feel ready and prepared

1:01

to leave the relationship . If

1:03

you are wondering how can

1:06

you begin to understand and break through

1:08

emotionally abusive behavior which , by

1:10

the way , if you are with a narcissist , you

1:12

are dealing with emotional abuse what

1:14

you can do is go on my website

1:16

, emotionalabusecoachcom

1:19

, and click on

1:21

the Emotional Abuse Breakthrough Program

1:23

. This program is designed to help

1:25

you begin to break through the patterns of

1:28

emotional abuse , to see where you

1:30

are in the cycle of abuse and begin to break

1:32

free . This is just one resource

1:34

of the many resources out there . In

1:37

addition , there's an e-book online

1:39

on my website called how to Break Up with a Narcissist

1:42

, and it is a deep dive

1:44

into how you can begin to break

1:46

free from the cycle of narcissistic

1:48

abuse . If you are listening

1:51

to this and you are really driving with

1:53

Ben and you feel like he is the person

1:55

to help you on your journey . His website

1:57

and all his resources are in

1:59

the show notes under raw motivations . Head

2:03

there , follow him on TikTok

2:06

, on Instagram , and begin to

2:08

piece together for yourself what you

2:10

are going through , because the more clarity

2:12

you have , the easier quote

2:14

unquote , don't want to use easier

2:17

the more clarity you have , the more aligned

2:19

you're going to feel with the healing journey that you

2:21

are going to be on . Here's Ben

2:23

, hi Ben , thank

2:26

you so much for joining me again . Yeah , no , absolutely it's good

2:28

to be here . Can

2:36

you tell us quickly who you are

2:38

, what you do and a little bit of

2:40

an intro to you ?

2:41

Yeah , so my name is Ben Taylor . I'm

2:43

a self-worn narcissist online

2:46

trying to help bring awareness to narcissistic

2:48

abuse and also to break people

2:50

out of trauma bonds and

2:52

being able to get away from toxic relationships

2:55

, especially mentally and emotionally

2:57

, to be able to have true freedom

2:59

from those toxic relationships .

3:02

Today I wanted to dive into

3:04

how to break up with a narcissist

3:07

, which I know is such a very

3:09

broad topic , but I was hoping that we could

3:11

break it down a little bit , as we tend

3:13

to do , and try and help people understand

3:16

what are some of the elements that are going on

3:18

when this is happening . But

3:20

before we dive a little deeper , I

3:22

was hoping that you could explain

3:25

just a bit what a self-aware narcissist is

3:27

and what makes you different

3:29

. Really , what I'm getting at here is

3:31

that , as you know and in

3:33

the work that you do too , a lot of narcissists one

3:36

are undiagnosed , but two they don't change , they're

3:38

not self-aware . They may claim to be

3:40

self-aware , but they are not . I don't want

3:42

someone to go into this thinking like oh

3:44

well , he seems self-aware , my

3:47

person is definitely going to change .

3:49

Okay , yeah , that makes sense . I think a

3:51

big piece is understanding that self-awareness

3:53

doesn't mean change and also

3:56

that people really aren't looking

3:58

for their narcissist to change . What

4:00

they're actually looking for or wanting is

4:02

transformation . The hard

4:04

part there is the majority of times you will

4:06

have someone who will modify , who will change

4:09

, who will manipulate , who will twist different things

4:11

to show an aspect of change

4:14

, but it's not really transforming from

4:16

the inside out , typically , it's just modifying

4:18

from the outside in . For

4:20

me , the aspect of being self-aware

4:23

is understanding hey , this

4:25

is who I am , this is what I've done , this is

4:27

me owning it 100% and

4:30

working every single day to be able

4:32

to counteract the thought process , the ideas

4:34

that I have to be able to get back to

4:36

the truth and back to the reality of the

4:38

facts of the situation , so that I can ultimately

4:41

be free of those toxic tendencies

4:43

and be free of the aspect

4:45

that once stab me , go back to

4:47

living a lie , living sedation

4:49

, living a life that is

4:51

not really joy-filled

4:53

or that is not actually purpose-driven

4:56

. Being self-aware

4:58

is just cracking

5:00

the door open of the very beginning

5:03

of the journey , of working on myself

5:06

and being able to eradicate

5:08

the lies that I believed

5:10

and that I've lived and that I've told and

5:12

being able to work through a piece

5:14

of honesty in all parts of my life

5:16

, to being able to say , hey , I'm going to actually

5:18

show up different than how I've shown

5:21

up before , not because I'm trying

5:23

to win someone back , not because I'm trying to do

5:25

this for my wife or my family , but

5:27

because I know who I am . Without

5:29

living this way and without being honest . That's

5:32

where a big driver comes in

5:34

, of actually having this transformation happen

5:36

from the inside out , because it's something I

5:38

want , versus just

5:40

modifying or conforming to what

5:42

other people say or think that I

5:44

should be .

5:46

Yeah , I love how you said that it's

5:48

change versus a transformation . A

5:51

transformation is so much deeper and I really

5:53

appreciate you outlining that

5:55

because I definitely think that's something people will be able

5:57

to look at and say okay , wait , yes

5:59

, this person would make quote unquote change

6:01

, but are they really somebody who can

6:03

, will and would want to transform

6:06

?

6:06

No , 100% . I think a lot of times people

6:08

are looking and I mean , that's one of the most popular

6:10

questions out there is like , can a narcissist change

6:12

? Right and in all reality

6:14

? Like the answer is yeah , like they can change

6:17

and they change a lot . They morph for each person

6:19

, they change for each person out there . New

6:21

mask , new image , like all this kind of stuff

6:23

changes . And it's kind of like if you picture

6:25

like a triangle , like you can

6:27

draw out a triangle in multiple

6:30

shapes , you know , in multiple aspects

6:32

, one side being longer , shorter , like

6:34

all different types , you can turn it , you can twist

6:36

it , all this kind of stuff , For the end of the day it's still a triangle

6:39

. And so , like that's the thing is , a lot of

6:41

times people are looking at a

6:43

change for a narcissist and it's still

6:45

a triangle , Like it's still the same thing . And

6:47

there hasn't been this actual transformation

6:49

of like what if that triangle became a circle

6:51

? Like it would have to actually change

6:53

its entire structure to actually show

6:56

up differently . And so that's

6:58

for me , like what I work on on a daily

7:00

basis with like weekly therapy

7:03

, with daily meditation , with doing process

7:05

called stacking , which is a little bit like cognitive

7:08

behavioral therapy and like things like that , to

7:10

be able to work on changing my mindset

7:12

, my thought process , my values , my

7:14

ideas , the stories I tell myself

7:16

from the inside out .

7:18

Yeah , yeah , which

7:20

is so . It's so difficult , so necessary but so

7:22

difficult , and I know how

7:24

hard that is , just from being a human

7:26

being as well . In the topic today

7:28

of being getting to discuss why it is so hard

7:30

to break up with a narcissist and

7:33

I know you work one-on-one with people but when I typically

7:35

have one-on-one people come to me , what

7:38

I notice is typically happening

7:40

is that the narcissist will really

7:42

start to hoover . So we might go

7:44

and get some clarity , Like I might be working

7:46

with the clients who really they start

7:48

to really see what they're dealing with and then they start

7:50

to try and break away . Everybody's

7:53

situation is different , so it may look

7:55

different depending on if they live together

7:57

, if they don't , if they're in school together

7:59

, if they work together , whatever that might be , and

8:02

oftentimes they're

8:04

trauma bonded . But on top of that , the narcissist

8:07

is being extremely confusing . They

8:09

might be saying things like I don't want to be with

8:11

you or I never want to be with you , and then they might come

8:13

back and say that I missed them and that they didn't mean

8:15

to say any of those things . It just

8:17

it creates such a dizzying process

8:19

. Do you see typical behavior

8:22

in your work ?

8:23

Yeah , obviously fairly typical as

8:25

far as , like , there's a lot of people that come

8:27

into with a lot of fog

8:29

, with a lot of confusion , with a lot of cognitive dissonance . So

8:32

, like , well , he says this , but he's demonstrating this

8:34

, he's saying he doesn't want me , that he's

8:36

going back and forth , like the intermittent reinforcement

8:39

, like the highs and lows , the ups and downs . So

8:41

I would say that it is pretty common when

8:43

we're talking about narcissistic

8:45

abuse and especially at the end of the relationship

8:47

, how things will change or morph

8:49

back and forth .

8:51

In your perspective , what keeps the narcissist

8:54

in this cycle with

8:56

someone who doesn't want to be with them anymore ? Even

8:58

if they have said something like we will

9:00

tell people all the time not to call someone

9:02

a narcissist , it usually doesn't go well

9:05

, but I you know , even if they've

9:07

identified the traits , they know it within themselves

9:09

. What do you notice

9:12

that like keeps the narcissist

9:14

in the dance with , say , the victim

9:17

or the healthy person ?

9:18

Two biggest things I would say would be image and control

9:21

.

9:21

Okay .

9:22

So image of how is

9:24

this going to look if this relationship

9:26

falls apart , whether that's to

9:28

, how is this going to look to family , to friends

9:30

, to parents , to coworkers , to religious

9:33

organizations , to society ? How is this

9:35

going to look ? And can I keep the facade that

9:38

this is a great relationship ? And

9:40

then the other piece would be on the aspect

9:42

of control of like

9:44

, if I get out of this

9:46

relationship , I lose this supply

9:48

, I lose this control , I lose this person

9:51

. That might seem like it's the most

9:53

awful thing , but I'm still in control

9:55

of it . And there's the piece that sometimes people

9:57

get confused on is the narcissist

10:00

will look at you and be like I hate you . This is

10:02

the worst relationship . Like you're suffocating me , You're

10:04

doing all these things like blame you right . And

10:06

at the end of the day , like the logic is well , if it's a person , it's a person

10:08

, it is well , if I'm doing that to

10:10

you , then why don't you leave ? But

10:12

the thing you have to understand is , even

10:15

though the narcissist is playing that role

10:17

of like I'm a victim , you're being awful

10:19

to me , they're still the ones causing

10:22

and creating a reaction from you , which

10:24

in the narcissist mind still means that they're in control

10:26

. And so if you actually got

10:29

out of the relationship , the narcissist would no

10:31

longer have that control , that leverage

10:33

over you , which would feel bad

10:35

, because then there's not that person to be able to , to

10:38

be able to manipulate , control , and

10:40

then that says bad things about themselves because

10:42

they lost that advantage over another person

10:45

.

10:46

And when the narcissist continues to try

10:48

and get back when so say they have lost

10:50

that control or the person they're with is starting

10:52

to really separate and move

10:54

away . Are they seeking ? Is

10:57

there a difference between control and supply

10:59

, or does control feed supply ?

11:02

I would take more long lines of control feed

11:04

supply . So like , if I can troll you

11:06

, then you're my supply , if that makes sense . So

11:09

like , if the person starts to pull away

11:11

, it's like , oh , like there , and

11:13

narcissist can sense this majority of time , like he

11:15

can sense that this person's pulling away or

11:17

they're starting to disengage . So I need to

11:19

up the ante or I need to push

11:22

a little bit harder , I need to love bomb , I need to step

11:24

back in for a moment . So like there's this piece

11:26

of like , oh , I'm losing control . And so you see

11:28

this in the control aspect of like

11:30

, okay , you just set a boundary , you just set

11:32

a boundary . You just bucked up against my

11:34

control , you just like limited my access to you

11:36

, you just did something

11:38

that doesn't let me do what I want entitlement piece , right

11:41

. So like in that aspect , it's like

11:44

the supply is the control in

11:46

that aspect , because it's like well , I used to be able to

11:48

control you , now I don't control

11:50

you , therefore you're bad supply . And

11:53

that's often until we see them start

11:55

to have other side pieces or interact with other people

11:57

. But there's still this piece of

12:00

I can control your reaction . And

12:02

so if the narcissist can still get

12:04

a reaction while still in the relationship

12:07

or out of the relationship , that still

12:09

can feel like a supply piece . Because

12:11

then think , think of I

12:13

guess the easiest way to say it is like think of supply as

12:15

being a reaction and so , like

12:18

, you can have a positive reaction , you can have a negative

12:20

reaction , doesn't matter . For a narcissist it's typically

12:22

supply , because I caused

12:24

you to do X , y and Z . I made

12:26

you do this . This happened because I'm

12:29

so good and you're so awful . So , whatever the story

12:31

is , they'll try to manipulate the situation

12:34

to feed , like their own ego

12:36

, their own self , but ultimately that

12:38

control piece goes back to did

12:40

I actually get someone to react or

12:42

fall subservient to what I wanted them to

12:44

do ?

12:45

Yeah , and I've been reading and

12:48

doing this work for years at this point , but

12:50

I don't think I've ever heard somebody explain it in

12:52

that way , and I was just sitting down here

12:54

taking some notes as you were talking and it's like it's

12:56

actually like quite fascinating that it

12:59

really like everything can come

13:01

back to like do they feel like they

13:03

have the upper hand or not ? You know , are they

13:05

in this place of control , even if it's false

13:07

control , or not ? And if

13:09

I reflect back on some of my past relationships , that's

13:11

absolutely what was happening , like even

13:13

when I was like , even from , like you know , if

13:16

I was in a very authentic space and I was like you know

13:18

, look , I get it . I wish

13:20

you the best . I don't want to . I'm not interested

13:22

in talking Like I really do hope that

13:25

you figure out , you know , and find someone , blah

13:27

, blah , blah . It still was

13:29

like the blame , like the blame

13:31

would just like come powering in , like

13:33

it was so unwanted and so not

13:35

needed in this moment , like years could have passed

13:38

, but the name still like

13:40

it was like they could not let it go . And

13:42

I wonder in a situation

13:45

like that , is that because

13:48

you're not feeding into the supply

13:50

that they're wanting and maybe expecting they're going to

13:52

get in some way ?

13:54

I think in that specific

13:57

situation I would say that would tap a

13:59

little bit more into rejection , which

14:01

would buck up against control , which

14:04

would buck up against respect , which would ultimately

14:06

buck up against the piece that would unlock

14:09

the shame aspect of

14:11

like you should want me or

14:14

like I'm so amazing , so you should care

14:16

about me . You should want this back and

14:18

you don't . So that's like even more frustrating . So

14:20

I'm going to get back into your life . So you do . You

14:23

see this a lot of times , where narcissists will fight tooth and nail

14:25

to get back into your life so he can discard you

14:27

. You know , at that point , like

14:29

it's already moved to a place of like well

14:31

, I'm just going to be vindictive to you , I'm just going to push

14:33

back . You know , in that type of a situation

14:36

, because oftentimes you'll see

14:38

like , oftentimes you'll see , so

14:40

I guess let me phrase it a different way so like control

14:43

, for instance , control is not always

14:45

just to control supply . Supply

14:48

is a piece that comes out of control when

14:50

you think of it in the control kind of wheelhouse

14:52

. Like the narcissist is trying to control

14:55

other people , other scenarios

14:57

, everything , typically to be able to control

15:00

image . And the reason why they're trying to

15:02

control image is to protect themselves

15:04

from shame . So , like I have to do

15:06

everything I can to run away from shame

15:08

, even if that means I have to control

15:11

another person , that's okay , because

15:13

then I'm protecting myself . That's the lie , you

15:15

know . That's like the story that gets told to the narcissist

15:17

of , like well , if I do this , then

15:20

it will justify this . If I do this

15:22

, it'll protect me from this , because I can't

15:24

feel shame . I don't want to feel shame . If I feel

15:26

shame , then that's incongruent with , like

15:28

, the mass that I put up . So there's a lot of different

15:30

pieces that control touches

15:33

, but a lot of control goes back

15:35

to keeping a certain image so that it

15:37

doesn't actually reveal the shame that's

15:39

underneath .

15:40

Why is a narcissist so afraid of shame

15:42

? Are they aware that they are so afraid

15:45

of shame ?

15:46

I wasn't . I had no clue , learned

15:49

about shame before I even knew about narcissism

15:51

, but like that was still like on my journey

15:53

kind of a thing , and until I actually

15:56

had like a name for it , I had no clue , had

15:58

no clue what it was or anything like that

16:00

. And when I was able to identify it I was like , oh

16:03

okay , like that's what I struggle with , didn't

16:06

change anything because I was like very early on , but

16:08

like it helped to identify it of like , okay

16:10

, this is what it is , this is what shame feels

16:13

like and what shame is Like . I would say

16:15

, for a narcissist , shame is like death , and

16:18

so getting to that piece of shame

16:20

typically comes through the avenue of

16:22

honesty , truthfulness and vulnerability . And

16:24

so for a narcissist , that's why they're so

16:27

against any type of truth

16:29

, because it unlocks vulnerable feelings

16:31

and unlocks shame that's underneath

16:33

, and it's like I got to do anything I can

16:35

to run away from this , because it feels

16:37

like death is the best way to be able to put

16:39

it .

16:40

I think that's a really important point , and

16:42

I work with a lot of people

16:44

that are getting divorced or in the

16:46

divorce process , and so I

16:48

want to ask a question , even though it's like sort of out

16:50

of order with where we're going today , because

16:53

I think it fits in right here and I think it's important

16:55

. I'm really just curious about

16:57

what your perspective is here . A lot

16:59

of people that I work with are either

17:02

in a high conflict divorce , which is just a

17:04

divorce with a narcissist , and the narcissist

17:06

will put in lies . They actually will fabricate

17:09

lies . I've even seen people make

17:11

up text messages . I read documents

17:13

around the kids where they're completely lying

17:15

about how the one parent spends time

17:17

with the child and they also don't

17:19

even know a lot of the time that they are during

17:22

the parenting time . When they

17:24

go to such great lengths to do

17:26

things like that , is that their

17:28

way of trying to protect themselves

17:30

against feeling shame ?

17:32

Yes . So that would be to protect

17:35

against shame and to try to control the narrative

17:37

, to protect against shame when

17:39

you boil it down , all

17:41

the aspect is like , how do I show up

17:43

in a certain way that makes me look good and feel

17:45

good and not have to feel the bad stuff

17:48

aka shame ? And so that's why you're

17:50

always going to have narcissists run away from guilt

17:52

. Hey , I did something bad because

17:54

it unlocks shame . Hey , I am

17:56

bad and that's in congruent with the mask

17:58

, with the version of themselves that they are pretending

18:01

to be or trying to show to society

18:03

.

18:04

Do they really believe the story that they're telling

18:06

themselves , say ? We follow the same example

18:08

. Somebody's getting divorced and the

18:10

narcissist is arguing that the other

18:12

parent never spends time with the kids . The kids

18:14

are always in the care of someone else or a babysitter

18:17

. When it's really not true at all

18:19

, they're defending it . There are lawyers

18:21

involved in it . They're defending it in front of the court

18:23

. Do they really believe the lies

18:25

that they're telling themselves ? Or are they so committed

18:28

to that lie because they cannot imagine

18:30

the real story or the real truth

18:32

coming out ?

18:33

Be a little bit of both , trying to make sure I wrap

18:36

my head around the question completely . So

18:38

I guess the easiest way to be able to answer it would be

18:40

yes , they believe the lies because

18:42

they have to , because the alternative

18:45

would be exposing the reality

18:47

, which would be shame , which would be death . So

18:50

in that aspect it's like I'm

18:53

going to fabricate this . I know it's a lie

18:55

, but I don't care , because it's going

18:57

to keep me from feeling shame , even

18:59

if I keep telling myself this , enough , I will believe

19:02

it . Then it's no longer . I mean , that's

19:04

why a narcissist a lot of them are so believable in

19:06

their lies because they're already believing

19:08

it , because they've had to change

19:11

their reality , they've had to fabricate stories

19:13

in their own mind , they've had to lack of better words

19:15

, they've had to gaslight themselves into

19:17

believing an alternate version of

19:19

reality that says , hey , you can exist

19:21

in this reality without having to

19:24

feel shame . So

19:26

for me , a piece of it . So consider

19:28

, one of the lies that I used to believe

19:31

was I am a good person . So

19:33

I had to tell myself that I didn't even realize

19:36

. I told myself that this was buried , and

19:38

it wasn't until I went through a 42-day

19:40

evolution that I was able to even find this lie

19:42

, but I thought I'm a good person

19:45

, while at the same time , I held

19:47

that thought along with the idea

19:49

of okay , I'm also cheating on my wife

19:51

, I'm also lying , I'm also giving

19:53

other people advice , while I'm being a hypocrite and

19:55

doing the exact opposite , like a whole litany

19:58

of different things . But I had to hold on to that one

20:00

lie and I had to believe

20:02

it so that I could keep operating with

20:04

the mask that said and stated I am a

20:06

good person , even though I was doing things that were

20:08

abusive . So I had to believe it in order

20:10

not to feel shame .

20:12

Yes , it's almost like it became like one of those

20:14

inner pillars of how you see yourself and

20:16

who you are . Even if it didn't have supporting

20:18

evidence , it was just like . This is who I am .

20:22

That's the piece that supports the mask

20:24

. Yeah , so , like how you said that it's a

20:26

supporting pillar of the mask , of the

20:28

image that I create .

20:30

Yeah , I mean , I think about it in terms of how

20:32

I would think about the values

20:34

that are important to me , or my honesty

20:37

, my being a good mom

20:39

doing the right thing which

20:41

can be that's very big topic

20:44

but showing up with integrity . And

20:47

if I believe that and if I say that's who I am

20:49

and I tell myself that over and over and I don't question

20:51

it and I don't have practices to lean back to , then

20:53

I just sort of like have a story of I'm

20:55

this person . That's really like . It's

20:58

pretty fragile because it's not based on anything , but it's

21:00

also pretty firm because it's the story I've been telling

21:02

myself my whole life . Right , so

21:04

it can be really tough to then break away , which

21:06

, in an argument with a narcissist or

21:08

in a breakup conversation with a narcissist

21:11

, is maddening . Right , Because they're probably

21:13

like this is who I am and you're crazy when

21:15

you're like , oh my God , no , you're

21:17

not Absolutely Right , that's great .

21:19

Yeah , I mean , that's a really good way to put

21:21

it and like the that's the whole piece is

21:23

I get has to be built on that

21:25

pillar in that aspect of like well

21:27

, this is who I am , even if it's not true

21:29

, that's what they're gonna hold on to sit

21:31

on to feel bad .

21:33

Yeah Well , I want to take a little bit

21:35

of a right turn over to how

21:37

to begin to break up with a narcissist

21:39

when all of this is going on , you know . And

21:41

so when all of this is going

21:43

on and we're in a relationship with somebody

21:45

that we're constantly gaslit , no

21:47

conversation actually goes anywhere . They keep

21:49

making promises that there is no transformation

21:52

and there's not going to be , and say they

21:54

have started to follow Someone like

21:56

you or me on Instagram and they start to put together

21:58

some of the pieces of like okay , wait , this

22:00

pattern is what's happening in my relationship

22:03

. I can't do this anymore . I and

22:05

, like you , know , maybe they get help or they get therapy

22:07

and they decide they want to leave . The narcissist

22:09

will make it almost near impossible to leave

22:11

the majority of the time , even if they also

22:14

say they don't want the relationship . What

22:16

are some of the beginning steps that you typically

22:18

recommend to people if they are

22:20

Trying to break up with somebody who

22:22

won't let them break up ?

22:24

Can you define more of like ? Won't let them break

22:26

up .

22:27

I guess what I mean more . I'm glad you asked that question

22:29

because as it came out of my mouth , I was like I need to be clear

22:31

about that . I'll just give an example

22:33

and we'll just use that example . So , okay

22:36

, I dated somebody a few years ago

22:38

who he kept saying like

22:40

he's somebody who had like rage , anger

22:42

, and it was the very . He had

22:44

a lot of emotionally abusive qualities , but

22:46

he also had a lot of narcissistic qualities

22:48

, and I didn't matter if he was a narcissist

22:50

, if he was this or is that he definitely . At

22:52

the end of this , I kept trying

22:55

to end the relationship and I kept trying to do

22:57

it in a way that felt like Look , we're

22:59

on different pages , it's okay , I

23:01

don't want to be with you anymore . And then he

23:03

would say you too , I don't

23:05

want to be with you , blah , blah , blah . And then

23:08

it wouldn't even be three to four days before I got

23:10

an email or a text and

23:12

then when I blocked him , it would be a letter

23:14

, and then when I like would throw those

23:16

out , it would be a gift , and then it would

23:18

be his mom calling and then it would be a conversation and

23:21

then it would be a promise to change , then it would be therapy

23:23

, and it was , and like I was

23:25

very aware of what was going on , so

23:27

I didn't fall for a lot of it . But I have a lot

23:29

of clients that start to believe that these things

23:31

are true , and I think , because we

23:34

all want these things to be true

23:36

, right , it's really great if someone's like holy

23:38

shit , I treated you so

23:40

poorly and I'm gonna do all these things

23:42

to change Myself so I can be a

23:44

better partner if you choose , to one

23:46

day have me back . That's not typically

23:48

what happens . Usually there's a lot

23:50

of blame and there's a little bit of accountability

23:53

, but it's not really based on true

23:55

accountability , it's not a

23:57

true apology , and so when I say

23:59

it doesn't let them break up , I think that

24:02

what I'm really referring to is like one

24:04

, how hard it is to actually like go to block

24:06

someone and if we're trauma bonded , how hard

24:08

it is to even begin to tell

24:10

ourselves that it's a trauma bond and it's not love

24:12

, because it feels like love . So you might be feeling

24:14

I'm so in love with them , I can't leave them

24:16

, and they keep coming back . We must be destined

24:19

to be together . You're

24:21

not , and when we step that , when we do

24:23

a lot of personal work . When we step outside , we're

24:25

able to then see okay , this person

24:28

is not the right person for me . This is what a trauma

24:30

bond is . This is what I feel like . But it takes us a while

24:32

to get there . And so when somebody

24:34

is in the relationship and say the narcissist continues

24:36

to hoover or they keep trying

24:39

to get you back , to Discard you , I

24:41

would say a lot of people don't know that that's happening

24:43

. When it's happening , you and I , I think , see

24:46

it clearly . You know people that have been listening to

24:48

either of us for a while Probably can start to see these

24:50

patterns clearly . But when you're in it , I

24:52

didn't see it for what that was . And

24:54

so what would you suggest to somebody if

24:57

the narcissist , say , was continuing to find

24:59

ways to like reach out to you , to hoover

25:01

, to even show up to where you are , and

25:04

Kept saying they didn't want to break

25:06

up but they weren't going to change

25:09

?

25:09

So the narcissist is saying they

25:11

don't want to break up , but at the same time they're

25:13

either seeing , or the narcissist is like I don't have

25:15

anything , I need to change .

25:17

The narcissist is basically like I'm sorry , I

25:19

want to be with you , I won't do it again , but

25:21

it's not based on anything and like we could

25:23

just assume that somebody's been in the pattern for

25:26

a while , but every time that there's

25:28

an ending they show back up . I

25:30

had even had a client this week or

25:32

last week , today's Monday , last

25:34

week we said her narcissistic

25:36

ex . She cut off all communication

25:38

and then he started showing up at the supermarket

25:40

and it almost felt like he was waiting for her To

25:43

like , have a conversation or to give a false

25:45

apology or it's a love bomb . But

25:47

it was based on nothing and so she started

25:50

to feel like I can't ever really break

25:52

up with this person . They're not going .

25:54

I think that's the reason why I asked that question initially

25:56

, because , like , I think the words we

25:58

give it is super powerful , because if we

26:00

say that , then it's going to be the reality

26:02

. And so , like , like , making

26:05

sure that , like all the clients know , like

26:07

, hey , that is their choice and

26:09

that's their empowerment to actually be able to do

26:11

it and no one can actually force you not to break

26:13

up with them . And so , like , just making

26:16

sure that , like clients even know , and that people they're

26:18

listening know , like , hey , no one can actually

26:20

force you to stay in the relationship or

26:22

to be in the relationship . But when we think

26:24

that oftentimes that's the first

26:27

start of giving our power away to someone

26:29

else and , as a result , it makes it very

26:31

hard to be free from that person

26:33

Because we've already , like proclaimed

26:35

that or declare that of , like I can't do

26:37

this If you can't , if you say you can't

26:39

, then you can't , because that's just the reality

26:42

of what the words actually do , the progression

26:44

That'll actually do . I think one thing that's kind

26:46

of clear , like one thing that needs to

26:48

be addressed and this might be a slight side

26:51

note , but I think it might help with this situation

26:53

it is understanding that at the end of

26:55

the relationship , the narcissist will change anything

26:57

and everything about themselves Just

26:59

to be able to keep you or get you back . And this

27:01

is where a lot of people get confused because

27:03

they see , at the end of the relationship , they see him

27:05

change and they're like , oh my gosh , she's

27:07

changing . Now he actually cares , he actually loves

27:10

. And what you have to do is you have to understand

27:12

that , the majority of the times

27:14

, all of the change that happens at the end

27:17

of the relationship is typically Changes

27:19

that you asked for throughout the relationship

27:22

that all of a sudden randomly happen

27:24

at the very end . When you say that you're

27:26

done , when you go no contact , when you say

27:29

I'm over , like when you actually lay

27:31

down the line of like I'm done , then

27:33

you will start to see random changes that

27:36

have not been prompted by you in

27:38

the moment , but have been prompted in the

27:40

past . This is the key that

27:42

people need to understand is , when you see

27:44

these changes happen without prompting

27:47

, it's not because the narcissist

27:49

got to a place and have this giant epiphany

27:51

. What's happening is the narcissist

27:53

is realizing that all the

27:56

previous ways to manipulate

27:58

you are no longer working and they

28:00

have to be able to adjust their manipulation

28:02

strategy . So at this point

28:04

, if he can't manipulate you through all

28:06

the different love bombing and Hoover attempts that have

28:08

happened in the past , then there

28:10

has to be these promises of change or has

28:13

to be signing up for therapy . There has to be

28:15

all this stuff that shows up that

28:17

you haven't even asked for recently , but has

28:19

been asked for in the past . What

28:21

it does is it actually helps . You know one

28:23

thing , or two things really . One

28:25

is knowing that he actually

28:27

knew about this the entire time and

28:30

two , being like , if he knew about this

28:32

the entire time , he purposely withheld

28:35

this to be able to manipulate you , which

28:37

is why he's changing it now . So

28:39

, like . I don't know if this helps as far as like

28:41

diving into this piece of it , but I did wanna kinda like

28:43

just acknowledge that a lot

28:45

of times people think that the narcissist is changing

28:48

at the end of the relationship because they finally

28:50

figured it out , or they have this epiphany of like

28:52

oh my gosh , I've been awful , let me fix

28:55

it when in reality , there are a lot

28:57

of times they're changing and modifying stuff

28:59

that you asked months ago and

29:01

they didn't do . And then they'll all of a sudden randomly

29:03

like let's use a silly example like let's say , you say

29:05

, hey , every Monday , I want

29:07

, you know , a bouquet of flowers , and they

29:09

never do it and they're like yeah , I forgot

29:12

, didn't have time , didn't have money , all this kind of stuff . So you always

29:14

feel devalued because you didn't get this bouquet of flowers

29:16

. That you're just like hey , it's simple , I just want a bouquet of flowers

29:18

every single Monday . Soon , as you say like

29:20

I don't think this is working out , like I'm done the

29:22

next Monday of a bouquet of flowers , and

29:24

so that's the piece I want people to understand is , when

29:26

that happens , it's not like oh , I

29:29

figured it out , this is what's gonna save our relationship

29:31

, it's no , this is what I know she

29:33

wants . Let me give it to her because

29:35

it'll actually prolong the relationship

29:38

if she finally sees me trying

29:40

in one area that I know she wanted in the past

29:42

. I just didn't want to give because I didn't need

29:44

to , Because she wasn't in the place where she was actually gonna

29:46

leave .

29:47

Yeah .

29:48

Sorry , that might have been like a side note , but hopefully that helps

29:50

bring value to it as well .

29:52

No , it definitely does it . Just , I guess I'm

29:54

like you know I'm thinking about that situation

29:57

and you're absolutely right Like a lot of

29:59

the things that narcissists will come through with or

30:01

promise at the end or like claim

30:03

to do . That's always things that you've

30:05

been asking for , that you've been wanting throughout the relationship

30:07

, and then it's like they come

30:09

to you with it as if it's their idea . You

30:12

know , and it's like not something at all that you've been asking

30:14

for for months , but this brand new idea that they

30:16

have , that they want to bring forward

30:19

, and it's infuriating and it's also

30:21

like it can be such a mind game to

30:23

those going through it , because it's like you wanted

30:25

water for so long and now they're like and

30:28

you're dehydrated and then

30:30

they hand you a cup of water Like it was so easy

30:32

the whole time . And when we're

30:34

in that space or when we're trauma bonded , I don't think we

30:36

think about it that deeply of like

30:38

okay , well , it's almost like . Oh well

30:40

, maybe they care . You know , it's sort of like reinforces

30:43

this feeling that's not actually true

30:46

or based on anything for the narcissist

30:48

when no absolutely so . I wrote down this

30:50

question on my questions and I actually like , as I

30:52

just reread it , it says what is one

30:54

way you can actually break away from a narcissist and

30:56

like , as I was about to read it

30:58

, I was like what I'm really asking there is like how to begin

31:00

to break your trauma bond , which is a much

31:02

bigger question . But I

31:05

want to reword it and phrase it so that people

31:07

have something a little bit more actionable to think about

31:09

. What is one suggestion

31:11

that you have of how somebody

31:13

can begin to create some space from the narcissist

31:16

so they might be able to get some clarity

31:18

and begin to see what's happening

31:20

and not fall into some of the same patterns ?

31:23

I think , like creating space , sometimes they can come

31:25

down to like very , very small practical

31:27

steps , even if it'd be reducing

31:29

communication to different venues or different

31:31

aspects . But it could even be like

31:34

putting your phone on do not disturb

31:36

, or like muting that one person's

31:38

text message , just to be able to have a

31:40

slight break where you're not as anxious

31:42

about those text messages or those emails

31:45

that are coming in , and then you check

31:47

them like on the hour or you check

31:49

them like on a certain day or whatever it might

31:51

be , to try to be able to just establish

31:53

a little bit of a gap . Sometimes it's

31:55

only like five minutes , but is

31:57

trying to be able to establish a little bit of a gap about

32:00

clarity . Whenever we're talking about clarity

32:02

and even the initial stages

32:04

of breaking a trauma bond , a lot

32:07

of that comes back to getting really , really clear

32:09

about the facts , like what are the facts of

32:11

the situation , what is the actual reality

32:13

and this is hard

32:15

for a lot of people . This is what I train in a lot

32:17

, because a lot of people want to combine

32:20

facts and emotions together and

32:22

we actually try to take those and separate them

32:24

, because if you're able to separate them , you're able to make

32:26

clear decisions faster . If

32:29

you're able to be like okay , here's the facts , all

32:31

the facts of the situation , and then this is how

32:33

I feel about them , then we can make decisions

32:35

. But if we kind of combine

32:37

the two together , it makes it really hard

32:40

, because then the person's confused of

32:42

like , well , I have this

32:44

feeling , but it's not actually factual

32:46

, Like I feel he cares about me , but it's

32:48

not actually shown by evidence or demonstrated

32:51

or factual , because he's

32:53

not actually shown up in a way that's actually

32:55

showing care . Does that make sense ?

32:57

Yeah , well , and it makes sense on the flip side

32:59

of , I often say that

33:02

, like most narcissists act as if their feelings

33:04

are facts . So from

33:06

like the opposite point of view , it's

33:08

almost like , I think , if we're beginning to

33:10

separate that work for ourselves of like what

33:12

is a fact , where do we land with some of this ? And

33:14

then being able to kind of just like , look over at

33:16

the narcissist and say , like they almost

33:18

act as if every feeling is a fact , and

33:22

then they , it's like how they live their

33:24

life , it's like because they felt it , it must be true . And

33:26

how ridiculous that is . When we

33:28

are living it , when we're doing this

33:30

work , especially doing this work on ourselves , to be able

33:33

to take that step back and say , okay , I

33:35

need to start to question the way that I see

33:37

things and to get clear on that

33:39

so that I'm regardless

33:41

if I stay or if I lead this relationship , I'm

33:43

going , I'm in it and I'm with

33:46

a clear head and I know what I'm

33:48

doing .

33:49

No , 100% . That's why , like working with different

33:51

clients or in different groups that I have or communities

33:53

or tribes that we run , like my whole goal

33:56

is not to get them to just go no contact

33:58

because that's not going to be good enough . Like

34:00

if I tell them , hey , just go no contact , and

34:02

we work through , or they're even at a place , just tell me what

34:04

to do , and I'm like , go no contact , like they'll

34:06

go right back because it has to be

34:08

able to change , like the thought process . We have

34:10

to actually change , like the story that's running through

34:12

their head , otherwise there'll still

34:14

be this opportunity for them to accept toxicity

34:17

back into their life . So until we actually break

34:19

down the facts of the situation

34:21

so they can see clearly and see the truth

34:23

of the situation , no freedom

34:25

is really possible .

34:27

Yeah , what would you say is the hardest

34:29

, one of the hardest things that you see in

34:31

the clients you work with that keeps them

34:34

, I guess , like in the cycle of narcissistic

34:36

abuse , or one of the hardest ideas

34:38

or concepts or wherever they get stuck

34:41

and that they're having trouble leaving . Like

34:43

, what do you think is one of the hardest things , that

34:45

are the most complicated parts that

34:47

you see that someone goes through ?

34:49

That was a complicated question , I know

34:52

.

34:52

Let's see .

34:53

So okay , so like , if we boil it down like

34:55

what's some of the hardest , what's like

34:57

the hardest piece in leaving , and

35:00

I would say it'd be acceptance of the truth , like

35:03

, because the person

35:05

, so the survivor , has been going through so much

35:08

and they believe their version

35:10

of truth . And that version of truth

35:12

might be influenced by their perspective

35:14

of their childhood , their upbringing

35:17

, their parents , previous relationships , and it's

35:19

obviously impacted by the

35:21

narcissist . And being

35:23

able to have them understand this

35:26

is like the weird part . Okay , so like , being able

35:28

to have a person understand that

35:30

your truth doesn't matter Sounds

35:32

kind of weird . So bear with me for a second . Because

35:35

your truth is based off of your own perspectives

35:37

, ideas , thoughts and beliefs . It's

35:40

not based on actual facts . Not majority

35:42

of the time it's not based on actual facts . Well , like if

35:44

I would have I don't know popular , like if I

35:46

would have done something different , if I would have been better

35:48

, if I could have done this , then he would have loved me

35:50

. If I would have given him more sex , then he wouldn't have

35:52

left me . All this kind of stuff . They're all different truths

35:55

that they think they have , but

35:57

they're not actually based on facts . And

35:59

so when we're able to actually break that apart

36:01

, and this steps into a piece of like radical

36:04

acceptance . But when we're able to break it apart and be

36:06

like , okay , let's get down to the actual

36:08

evidence . What was actually demonstrated

36:10

? What was actually shown ? Did he

36:12

do this , yes or no ? Well , he kind of did , okay

36:15

, did he actually do it or did he not do it ? Is it 50% ? Like

36:17

getting really clear . This is the part that

36:19

people are not automatically

36:21

good at of like getting really

36:24

clear of the facts of the situation

36:26

. Well , he said he care about me , okay . Well

36:28

, how did he demonstrate it ? Well , he

36:30

said he no , how did he actually demonstrate

36:33

? We have to walk people through . So I would say like that's

36:35

the hardest part A lot of time is

36:37

getting people to actually break down the

36:39

story that they're telling themselves

36:41

. Oftentimes , often times , I'll phrase that

36:43

first of like hey , it's a story . When I talk in some

36:46

of my higher level groups , like we're just talking about the

36:48

lies we believe , because it's really

36:50

just , it's something that's not based on facts . So

36:52

it's just a story that we're telling ourselves to

36:55

justify , believe

36:57

or accept the different abuse that's

36:59

been happening .

37:00

Yeah , I would have said the same thing

37:03

. I usually call it get right

37:05

with the reality , or how do you get

37:07

right with the reality of what's actually happening ? And

37:09

it is a lot . It's a lot of journaling and it's a lot

37:11

of going back and really asking

37:14

yourself do I have evidence for this ? Oh well , he says

37:16

he loves me . Okay , are there

37:18

actions you know ? Like , how does he

37:20

show that ? What does that mean ? What does

37:22

that look like ? You know , and you know all

37:24

of that , it just it's so deep

37:26

and it's so . I think it's such an

37:28

important step in this process because it

37:30

just it gives you that sense of having

37:33

an inner dialogue and a

37:35

sense of self that is grounded and

37:37

that you can trust because you've done the work

37:39

to hear your own voice and to trust it .

37:42

Right , no , absolutely I

37:44

walk people through . I'll give you kind of a quick aspect

37:46

. We walk people through like a framework to

37:48

actually like work on reframing

37:51

the mindset . We do it inside

37:53

of a lot of digital tools that we have that

37:55

I call stacking . It's what I do every

37:57

single day . That helps me rewire

38:00

my mindset . We take people through it and the clarity

38:02

challenge it's in my upper levels

38:04

, inside of my Thriver community or my mastermind

38:06

, where people are sharing these stacks every single

38:08

day , and it's a

38:10

simple framework that kind of boils down to

38:13

, first off , being stop , which is aspect

38:15

of like stop and actually like acknowledge

38:17

wait a second , the reality that I'm in right now

38:19

might not actually be true . So , like

38:22

, what I'm believing in this moment might

38:24

not actually be true . So I need to be able to take a moment

38:26

to step back , kind of put some of my feelings

38:28

and emotions on the side and be like can I actually look

38:31

at this from a strategic

38:33

or a logical standpoint ? Can

38:35

I actually break this down with the actual

38:37

facts ? So then it moves

38:40

from stop , it moves to submit and

38:42

the submit piece is actually can I actually submit

38:44

my reality to the facts

38:47

of the situation , not my feelings , but

38:49

just to the facts and be able to see okay

38:51

, this is the evidence , as well as demonstrated , this is what

38:53

we've seen . And then we move to the third stage

38:55

, which is called struggle . And

38:57

that's where we're struggling with okay , how

38:59

do I come to terms with these facts that are here

39:02

and the story that I've been telling myself

39:04

? So what I want to believe ? I want

39:06

to believe this but actually don't

39:08

have the evidence to be able to justify it

39:10

. And then the fourth step is strike , meaning

39:12

like now we need to actually take an action . Be

39:15

like we've actually looked at this , we've gone

39:17

through it , we've wrestled back and forth with

39:19

the story that we actually believe . Now we actually

39:21

have to adopt a new story or we have to adopt

39:23

a new direction that we're going based

39:26

on the facts that we know are undeniable

39:28

, that are irrefutable , that are just the actual

39:31

proof of what was demonstrated , what was shown

39:33

. And in doing that I mean that's

39:35

like a snapshot of , like what we do

39:37

. It's in a much longer process , but

39:39

in doing that , people are able to how I normally

39:41

phrase rewire their thought

39:43

process and get back to an

39:45

actual reality that's based on facts

39:47

versus emotions or

39:49

feelings for a truth aspect

39:52

that's not always grounded in reality

39:54

.

39:55

Yeah , I thank you so much for sharing

39:57

that . That was really helpful , especially , I think

39:59

, for people to hear how you actually begin

40:01

to break that down so they get a look

40:04

into what it's like to work with you .

40:05

Yeah , and that's what's built into what

40:08

I do on a daily basis for myself

40:10

and like in some of my groups , like

40:12

I'll share what I write down

40:14

, I'll share my stacks , I'll share the things that I go

40:16

through and sometimes those are like 30 minutes

40:18

to an hour that I'm processing , that , I'm typing

40:20

, that , I'm putting stuff down . I'm like , hey , here's

40:23

an angry stack . I just had to process this

40:25

frustration at my

40:27

daughter for her

40:29

tantrum the other day . Or I just had to process

40:31

, like this story I'm telling myself about

40:33

this trip or this interaction

40:36

and so people get to see , like me break it

40:38

down like lifetime of , like I'm

40:40

living this way , which is why I can speak

40:42

it and why I can talk and help people through

40:44

it , because I'm rewiring the stories

40:46

that I believe on a day to day basis .

40:49

Absolutely , and I'm so glad that you shared

40:51

this , because I think it's so important to

40:53

continue to do our personal work , and

40:55

I used to teach yoga

40:57

and I used to always say that like the most

41:00

important part of my yoga teaching practice is

41:02

that I continue to take classes and I continue

41:04

to like do work on myself , and

41:07

it's almost like if I wasn't continuing to do

41:09

the practice , then I wasn't really showing up and I wasn't

41:11

showing up in a way that made me feel proud . And

41:14

even now I'm in therapy , I'm in coaching

41:16

, I do like a variety of sorts

41:18

of things . I'm always learning and it's like I think

41:20

it's just so important to continue to educate

41:22

yourself , like there's no end in

41:25

place , but also to have a practitioner like

41:27

you who does like they . You do

41:29

, you do always continue to work

41:31

on yourself , and there's like a level of humility there

41:33

too , and just like vulnerability to

41:35

say like this is life , you know

41:37

, and I think sometimes that something that isn't talked

41:39

about that much , especially like when we're just faces

41:42

on Instagram or TikTok it's like the real

41:44

people that have to show up every day

41:46

and do our personal work so that we can also

41:48

show up and help other people from a really genuine

41:51

place .

41:51

No , 100% . And then I mean that's a huge investment

41:54

. You know , time , money , energy . It's a huge cost

41:57

of time , money and energy you know , but

41:59

it's like 100% worth it

42:01

. But I mean I've I don't know

42:03

like I've invested tons of time , energy

42:06

and money over the past couple of years in

42:08

working on my own growth , my own transformation

42:10

. You know I'm going on . There'll be

42:12

three years coming up here in therapy

42:15

every single week . You know like

42:17

that that gets costly , you know

42:19

it gets . It gets an investment , time

42:21

, time consuming . You know there's a lot

42:23

of stuff I do on a daily basis

42:26

, like for my own personal development and growth

42:28

for me is close

42:30

to probably about like an hour to an hour and

42:32

a half a day , like it doesn't

42:34

really shift or change much , like that's

42:36

always there , no matter what kind

42:39

of a thing . And then I'm involved

42:41

in different groups and different aspects

42:43

where I'm putting myself in situations

42:45

to be forced to grow , be forced to be

42:47

vulnerable , be forced to be transparent , to

42:49

be able to help me continue to grow , to be

42:51

the person that I'm called to be .

42:53

Yeah Well , thank you so much for being so vulnerable

42:55

and for sharing it , and I also I

42:57

always appreciate your insights and how

42:59

you use your story in helping

43:02

to educate on some of these cycles of narcissistic

43:04

abuse and like so people can really understand

43:06

it , and they understand it from your firsthand

43:08

experience .

43:09

No , absolutely . Thanks for having me on today .

43:11

Yeah , can you share how people can find

43:14

you ?

43:15

Yeah , the easiest way to be able to find me

43:17

would be just to go to realm motivationscom

43:19

. That's the easiest way to be able to connect

43:21

with me one-on-one or interact

43:23

with us on some of the social media platforms . You

43:25

can reach out that way . And then probably

43:28

one of the most impactful ways to be

43:30

able to kind of start the healing journey

43:32

where we specifically target trauma

43:35

bond rumination breaking

43:37

out of that mental and emotional like

43:39

fog , like if people stuck would

43:41

be our clarity challenge and that's at claritychallengenet

43:44

. It's one of the things that

43:46

we've had hundreds of people go through

43:48

that have been able to complete it

43:50

and graduate through breaking

43:53

out of trauma bonds , like all

43:55

different types of toxic relationships

43:57

, to ultimately be free .

43:59

Awesome . Thank you so much and I will

44:01

put all of your links in the show notes .

44:03

No , absolutely . Thank you for having me

44:14

on

44:16

.