0:01

Hey, Super Podcast fans. It's

0:03

Yardley. I just wanted to pop

0:05

in with a quick announcement about Small Town

0:07

Dicks Season 12. It drops on

0:10

April 21st. April 21st. Mark

0:12

your calendars. We will see

0:14

you there.

0:20

Hey, Small Town fam. It's Yardley. How

0:22

are you guys? So happy that you're here.

0:25

I want to set you up for today's

0:27

episode. So, some cases

0:29

bust out of the gate like a herd of wild

0:32

horses. Other cases, like

0:34

this one, develop on the horizon

0:36

like a slow burn. In

0:39

this episode, you'll hear about a small

0:41

town crime that's senseless

0:43

and destructive, but relatively

0:46

tame compared to the kinds of cases

0:48

we usually cover on this podcast. However,

0:52

the first offense that our guest, Detective

0:55

Chris, tells us about turns out

0:57

to be only the first in a string

0:59

of crimes that grows ever more

1:01

dangerous and even deadly, which

1:04

proves a point our detectives have made

1:06

many times, and that

1:08

is, every victim deserves your

1:11

best work. Meaning, no

1:13

matter the size of the crime, your

1:15

job as an investigator is the same.

1:18

Bring your A-game, because

1:19

justice deserves its day in court,

1:22

and you never know where your investigation

1:24

will take you. Please settle in

1:26

for Slow Burn.

1:31

Hi there. I'm Yardley. I'm Dan.

1:34

I'm Dave. And I'm Paul. And

1:36

this is Small Town Geeks. Dave

1:38

and I are identical twins and retired detectives

1:41

from Small Town, USA. And I'm a veteran

1:43

cold case investigator who helped catch the Golden

1:45

State Killer using a revolutionary DNA

1:47

tool. Between the three of us, we've investigated

1:50

thousands of crimes, from petty theft to

1:52

sexual assault, child abuse to

1:54

murder. Each case we cover is told

1:57

by the detective who investigated it, offering

1:59

a rare, yet powerful story.

1:59

personal account of how they solved the crime. Names,

2:02

places, and certain details have been changed to

2:05

protect the privacy of victims and their families.

2:07

And although we're aware that some of our listeners may

2:09

be familiar with these cases, we ask you

2:11

to please join us in continuing to protect the true

2:13

identities of those involved out of respect

2:16

for what they've been through.

2:17

Thank you. Today

2:23

on Small Town Dicks, we

2:25

have, guess what? The

2:28

usual suspects. We have Detective Dave.

2:30

Hello Yardley. Hello David. We

2:33

have Detective Dan. Hello team. Hello

2:35

you. And we have the one

2:37

and only Paul Holes. Hello everybody.

2:40

Hello. And Small Town Fam,

2:43

we are so pleased to welcome a new

2:45

guest to the podcast, Detective

2:47

Chris. Good morning. Good morning,

2:49

sir. Thank you so much for giving up one

2:51

of your very precious days off to join us

2:53

here today.

2:54

It's my pleasure. So Chris,

2:56

before we get into the story, I always like to know

2:59

a little bit about your jurisdiction,

3:02

sort of a little Reader's Digest

3:04

version of your career law enforcement.

3:07

Tell us who you are.

3:08

So I went to college, got

3:11

my criminal justice degree, then

3:14

came back and at the time there really wasn't a lot of

3:16

departments hiring. So I joined the military

3:19

army national guard

3:20

as a military police officer. I actually

3:22

did one tour overseas and

3:25

came back and got hired on with the local sheriff's

3:27

department,

3:28

worked there for a few years. And then I jumped

3:31

ship, you could say to the local city

3:33

PD. And I've been there for two and

3:35

a half decades now. Wow. Wow.

3:38

That's impressive. He's seen a thing or two.

3:40

I would say this job that you

3:42

all do in law enforcement, really any first responder,

3:44

it's just not normal.

3:46

It's just not normal to encounter people always on

3:48

their worst day. And you're there to

3:50

help put the train back on the tracks.

3:52

And when people say, oh yeah, it's been, you

3:54

know, two and a half decades, that's a big deal.

3:57

Yeah, no one ever calls 911 when they're having

3:59

a good day. I've never had anyone call in and

4:01

say, hey, I got a promotion. Would you like to come over for coffee

4:03

and cake? Yeah. Everything's going

4:06

great, you guys. I've got a pizza party. You want

4:08

to come over?

4:08

That's a really good point. So

4:11

Chris, tell us how this case came to

4:13

you. Well, it was early morning.

4:16

I got called in. I was actually about ready to get up for

4:18

work. And then they called me and asked

4:20

if I could come in to work on this

4:22

case. And I said it was a robbery

4:24

arson. So

4:27

didn't think anything of it at the moment. Got ready,

4:29

headed into work. And once I got there

4:31

and figured out what was going on, it was something

4:33

that was out of the ordinary, something that

4:35

you don't really see every day. One

4:38

of our local family entertainment establishments

4:42

had been broken into in the middle of the night. And

4:44

the janitor that was working there, Joe,

4:47

was the one who kind of took the brunt of

4:49

everything.

4:51

So what happened is that Joe

4:53

went in, third shift janitor, lets

4:55

himself in, and just works out during

4:58

the night. He's a retired gentleman who's been

5:00

doing it for quite a few years.

5:02

And oh, about 3.15

5:04

in the morning, all the lights

5:06

went off in the building as he's cleaning

5:09

up. And the next thing he knew was he

5:11

saw flashlights coming

5:13

from the back of the building. And people

5:15

were yelling, police, please get

5:17

on the ground. Police get on the ground.

5:20

So that kind of shocked Joe. So

5:22

he got down on the ground. And once

5:24

he got down, then they started telling him to keep

5:26

his head down and don't look up, which

5:29

he did. He didn't know what was going on. He was kind of in

5:31

shock at the moment. And then he heard one of them say,

5:33

turn the lights on. And once

5:35

the lights came on, Joe heard one

5:37

of them, he called him the leader, tell

5:40

him, hey, keep your head down. You know, you're doing a good

5:42

job, don't look up. So as Joe

5:44

was laying there, he could hear

5:46

multiple people moving around and then

5:49

he could start hearing metal on

5:51

metal,

5:52

almost like someone's hitting something

5:54

with a hammer or a crowbar or a sludge

5:56

hammer. It was metal getting beaten.

5:59

Joe thought. He even heard a grinder going,

6:02

which he thought was kind of odd. So

6:05

the leader, even at one point, took Joe's wallet

6:07

out and said, I know who you are

6:09

now, so don't do anything,

6:11

don't look up, don't say anything. Joe believed

6:14

that there was three people there just because

6:16

of the noise he could hear at different

6:18

locations in the establishment.

6:20

That went on for quite a while. I think

6:23

we figured out it was maybe roughly an hour that

6:25

they were in there. And

6:28

then Joe said, it just went quiet.

6:30

The sound was gone, there was no more metal on

6:32

metal. And the next thing

6:34

he realizes is that he's feeling

6:37

intense heat coming from above him. Joe

6:39

thought, what's going on? Why is it getting so hot

6:42

in here? And he could start hearing the sound

6:44

of fire, things crackling and

6:46

burning. So he lifted his head up and he could

6:48

see the entire roof above him. Joe

6:50

was out in the kind of the

6:53

main entryway, hallway on the floor. He

6:55

could see the whole entire ceiling on fire.

6:58

Everything was burning. Joe got up, went

7:00

and grabbed his coat

7:01

and his keys, didn't have his phone with

7:04

him. He had left it at home. And luckily enough,

7:06

there's

7:06

a fire department right across the street. So

7:08

he ran to the fire department and rang the doorbell

7:11

until they woke up and came and answered

7:13

the door,

7:14

told them what was going on. And

7:17

then they, of course, sounded the alarm

7:19

and headed over there.

7:21

It was quite a fire. They actually had to call

7:23

in a couple other agencies to help because the

7:25

building was such a large building and it was

7:28

so fully engulfed.

7:29

So they worked on that for

7:32

probably four hours

7:34

till they could eventually get it completely

7:36

down. One of the firefighters said

7:39

it was so hot, the metal steel support

7:41

struts in the ceiling had twisted.

7:43

So I got all that information from

7:45

the interview that I did when I first

7:48

got into work. Chris, is it just a

7:50

single business in this building or are there multiple

7:52

businesses in the same building? It's a single

7:55

business establishment, one business

7:57

in this large building. And it's pretty

7:59

well known.

7:59

Like I said, it was a pretty

8:02

well-established family entertainment establishment. So

8:04

are we talking like an

8:07

arcade with video games,

8:09

pinball, shuffleboard, stuff like that?

8:12

Correct, yes. So you're interviewing

8:14

Joe that morning, and what's his affect?

8:17

Is he composed? Is he kind of freaking out? It

8:19

seems like he handled things fairly

8:21

poised. Yeah, Joe was laid

8:24

back, just take life as it comes. Hey,

8:26

you know, this happened. It

8:28

was kind of terrifying, but I'm

8:30

going to go home and wake up the

8:32

next day. It didn't really affect him

8:35

too much. And just by doing

8:37

the interview with him and a quick background check, I kind

8:39

of eliminated Joe right from the beginning.

8:42

He just didn't seem like he would be the person that

8:44

would do this. He's been there for eight years. He loved his

8:46

job. He was retired. It was just

8:48

something that kept him busy, and he liked doing it.

8:51

And is Joe, you know, in addition to the flashlights

8:53

that he saw and the sounds

8:55

he's hearing of tools, did he see

8:58

these individuals carrying guns? Was

9:00

he threatened with a gun?

9:02

No, he did not look up at all. He

9:04

said, you know what, they're going to do what they're

9:06

going to do. I don't want to put

9:08

myself in any danger or risk by

9:10

trying to look up and see who they

9:12

are or identify them. We were never able

9:15

to establish if they had any weapons. But

9:17

Joe did say at one time he

9:20

heard a ratcheting sound. So he

9:22

didn't know if it was a ratchet, a tool

9:24

they were using, or if it was like the cylinder

9:26

of a

9:27

revolver. The light bulb went on pretty

9:29

quickly for Joe, realizing, OK,

9:31

I heard police, police get down, get down on the

9:33

ground. But I imagine it

9:36

took just a few moments where he's like, OK, these

9:38

are not cops. Correct. Yeah, he

9:40

realized once they started

9:42

moving around and

9:44

talking, Joe said I didn't

9:47

think they were the police. The leader, as he called

9:49

him, kicked him in the leg one time,

9:51

told him to keep his head down. But that

9:53

was about the extent of any physical contact.

9:56

It was just more verbal threats.

9:59

I interviewed Joe and

10:02

got him a ride back home and

10:04

then went back out to the scene.

10:07

The firefighters were still working and our

10:09

lab division had been called in.

10:12

So they were out there starting to take their photographs,

10:15

collect any evidence. And

10:17

one thing the initial officers had done once

10:20

they got there is start

10:22

to canvas the area to

10:25

look for anything they could find, any cameras, anything

10:27

to help out in the investigation. They

10:29

were able to find some

10:31

of the coin boxes

10:33

from the,

10:35

like the video game machines and the

10:37

coin dispensers that they had broke into.

10:40

They actually found the coin boxes

10:42

in some front yards several blocks

10:44

away.

10:45

So the bad guys had successfully taken

10:47

those coin boxes out

10:50

of the establishment, took all the money

10:52

and dumped the rest.

10:53

Correct, that's what Joe had said. It was the metal

10:56

that he heard was them breaking into all

10:58

the machines.

10:59

One thing Joe did tell me during the interview

11:02

was that they kept asking him, where are the keys

11:05

to the safe? Where's the safe? Where's the

11:07

keys? Of course, his response

11:09

every time is, I'm just the janitor, I don't

11:11

have access to that.

11:13

So they ended up just going into

11:15

the vending machines, taking

11:18

the coin box.

11:19

The patrol officers were able to find the coin

11:21

boxes. They found a screwdriver in

11:24

the yard. At this time, there was snow

11:26

on the ground. So it was kind of on top of the snow

11:28

right in the middle of someone's yard. And

11:30

they also found a work

11:32

glove, just a single work glove

11:35

in the middle of a road

11:36

several blocks away.

11:38

So our lab collected all that evidence. The

11:40

video cameras that they did locate,

11:43

we did get those. And we were able to

11:45

find a car that had entered the parking

11:48

lot right before Joe

11:50

had said that they had broken in. Unfortunately,

11:52

the distance and the lighting of the camera,

11:55

we could barely get a description of the car, kind of shape,

11:57

color, we could not get license plates.

11:59

plates or anything like that.

12:02

And when it pulled into the parking lot, it went around the

12:04

building, of course, so we couldn't see who

12:06

got out or how many people got out. But we were

12:09

able to see the direction that the

12:11

car left because we could see the vehicle from

12:13

the same camera leave the lot shortly

12:15

before Joe ran over to the fire department.

12:18

In that general direction, we were able to pick the car

12:21

up on a couple of other business cameras. But again,

12:23

we couldn't see the license plate,

12:25

but we did get a general description

12:28

of the car in color. The

12:31

security camera system inside of

12:33

the business had burned completely up.

12:35

So we had no internal video

12:38

of the incident. That had all been destroyed.

12:40

And we really didn't have any suspects

12:43

immediately to go after.

12:46

So I had to go back to square one. And

12:49

of course, you start with who worked there.

12:51

Did you have any disgruntled employees? Had

12:54

there been anybody fired recently? Had

12:56

there been any problems? So I

12:58

had to start at square one and just start down

13:00

that path, tracking people down

13:03

and interviewing them. And no one

13:05

was really jumping out. Couldn't

13:08

really find anything that would connect

13:10

it to anybody that had worked there previously.

13:13

And on top of that, with interviewing

13:16

them, I also had to go and collect

13:19

DNA from every

13:20

person that worked there and every mechanic who

13:22

worked in the business or anybody

13:25

that could have possibly been involved internally.

13:28

Did you get any pushback from employees when

13:30

you asked for DNA? No.

13:32

No. Most all of them were

13:34

really accepting.

13:35

Roughly how many employees were at this

13:37

business? There was probably 18 employees

13:40

that I had

13:43

to go interview and

13:44

take DNA samples from just to

13:47

compare to anything that we could find down the road. So

13:49

a robust small business, but

13:52

the operative word being small business. Yes.

13:55

Yeah. They had quite a few employees

13:57

that a lot of them had been there for a long time.

14:00

Joe. And suddenly unemployed.

14:02

That's what I mean. It's just shitty.

14:05

And Chris, who are you interviewing at this

14:08

business to get this

14:10

information of employees, possibly

14:13

disgruntled employees? Are they the owners of the

14:15

business or a manager?

14:17

Yes, we of course contacted the owner

14:19

right away that morning and they came

14:21

in and talked to us for a little bit. When they

14:23

were able to get us a list of employees or anybody

14:26

that they thought might have been involved,

14:28

because they had a couple of people that had been let go. But

14:30

once we interviewed them,

14:32

they didn't really have a connection at all. When Joe

14:34

sees these flashlights coming toward him and

14:36

the lights go out, is there any indication

14:38

that the suspects in this case had

14:41

prior knowledge of how to shut

14:43

the lights off in this place? I don't think

14:46

so. I think when they came in, they

14:48

came in right near the

14:51

mechanical area, right near the control

14:53

panels. We had no indication that

14:55

they had been encasing it or had even worked

14:57

there or knew what was going on. I think it was just,

15:00

hey, let's turn the lights off.

15:02

And here they are. Just dumb luck. Yeah.

15:05

This business is the family's primary

15:08

source of income. Correct. Yes,

15:10

all burnt up. And obviously this is financially

15:13

motivated. I'm assuming that this

15:15

was an arson or did the fire start

15:17

because of what they were doing in terms of

15:19

using the grinder and a spark going, what

15:21

was the origin? Well, the origin was back

15:23

in the office area. So it wasn't

15:26

where all the machines were at because

15:28

the machines and the games

15:30

and the vending machines were kind of spread out throughout

15:32

the business. So the fire was specifically

15:35

set in the office area. Do you know, was

15:38

an accelerant used? They weren't able

15:40

to determine exactly what

15:42

it was because the fire was so intense, such

15:44

a big fire. And in this business,

15:46

there were a lot of things there that

15:48

could have potentially been used as

15:50

a accelerant. Okay.

15:53

So I'm just trying to assess that they come with

15:55

the necessary tools and

15:58

ability to...

15:59

start this fire because then that would

16:02

show a certain mindset. Not

16:04

only is this financial, but then they were also

16:06

going to either use the fire to

16:08

cover their tracks or to cause

16:10

more harm to the business.

16:12

And Chris, did you look into the possibility

16:15

that the robbery might have been done on behalf

16:17

of the owners so they could collect

16:20

insurance money?

16:21

Yeah, it didn't seem like it was a financially

16:24

motivated issue. You know, sometimes

16:26

that's the first thing you think of when it's just a specific

16:29

arson, is there insurance policy on

16:31

it? Things like that. But what

16:33

kind of threw me off on this was how

16:36

they started the

16:37

initial robbery coming in and claiming

16:40

to be police

16:41

breaking in the back door and then going after

16:43

vending machines. Well, wanting to

16:45

know where the safe is and wanting keys

16:47

to the safe, which tells me,

16:50

yeah, they're looking just for money, but

16:52

then going to the vending machines to

16:54

try and get something out of what

16:56

they're going to do. And it seemed to be

16:59

more of a covering your tracks issue with

17:01

the fire being set.

17:03

Do you know about how much money they got away

17:05

with? Because it's coins and

17:07

coins are heavy.

17:09

They did not get a whole lot. I think it

17:11

was only, you know, several hundred dollars. Is

17:13

it hard to move stacks of quarters in your

17:16

state? Yes.

17:32

So

17:32

I worked on this case for about a month, you

17:34

know, just tracking people down, interviewing people,

17:37

looking at all kinds of records and anybody that was involved

17:40

to work there.

17:41

And

17:42

in our department, we are not specialized

17:45

in one sort of crime. All

17:48

of our detectives are general, I

17:50

guess you could say detectives. We handle

17:52

everything from homicides to

17:55

thefts

17:57

to identity theft, credit card fraud,

17:59

sexual.

17:59

assault,

18:01

major assaults, we cover it all. So

18:03

along with this, and you guys

18:05

know where I'm coming from, that's not the only

18:07

case you're working. So you have a

18:10

stack of them on your desk

18:11

that you still have to keep trudging away on

18:14

and working bit by bit while you're working this one.

18:16

I was thinking about that right when you brought it up. I was

18:18

like, I wonder how many cases Chris

18:20

has on his caseload. When

18:23

I went back into the detective bureau,

18:25

I was told that

18:26

you're never gonna get caught up. So unfortunately

18:30

the cases keep coming and I

18:32

always tell people, I wish I could work myself

18:34

out of a job. There is job security.

18:37

Yes, there is. It takes minutes for the criminals

18:39

to commit the crime and investigations

18:42

can take years. Yeah, exactly.

18:44

So I worked on that, like I said, for

18:47

a month and almost

18:49

to the day, a month later, one of our patrol sergeants

18:51

is driving around early in the morning and

18:54

drives by one of our local eating

18:56

establishments. I

18:59

see smoke coming up through the roof. So

19:01

call 911, fire department gets

19:03

there,

19:04

buildings on fire.

19:07

That place also went up and completely

19:09

destroyed.

19:11

So once they were able

19:13

to get into that building right away, they

19:15

could see that some of the other machines had been

19:18

tampered with

19:19

and the

19:21

safe had been moved.

19:23

So detective came in and

19:25

started talking to the owners of

19:27

that business. And

19:29

one of the things that

19:31

we got lucky on this one, the second

19:33

one was

19:35

that the fire was started again in the office

19:37

area,

19:38

but the DVR system, video

19:40

recording system

19:41

did not get destroyed. So

19:44

one of our detectives is a video specialist. He

19:47

was able to pull the video

19:49

out of the DVR and recover it. And

19:52

we had the security camera. So now

19:55

we had

19:56

some suspects, clothing, how

19:58

many people were in there.

20:00

and you can see them setting the

20:02

fire. Just, hey, there's a pile of paper in the

20:04

office, and let's just

20:06

light it on fire. And that's when we kind of realize

20:08

that they're doing this to cover their tracks.

20:10

So you've concluded that this is the same

20:12

group that broke into and burned

20:14

the arcade. Yes. Chris,

20:16

can I ask you a question? I always think

20:19

of arsonists working alone. It

20:21

seems unusual that there's more than one person

20:23

setting these fires, no?

20:25

Yes and no. Usually,

20:27

like you said, a lot of times,

20:29

arsonists will be by themselves. But

20:31

in this case, this group of

20:34

suspects, they were going for

20:36

safes and money and a quick hit,

20:39

quick fix, get some quick cash. And

20:42

the arson was secondary to cover

20:45

their tracks, burn all the evidence.

20:47

Unfortunately, they took down a

20:49

couple well-known establishments in town and

20:52

destroyed a couple people's income,

20:54

their lives. So it's more

20:56

of a coverup. And Chris, when you reviewed

20:59

the video of the second business that was recovered,

21:02

what do you guys see? Do they seem organized?

21:04

Are they well-planned? I would say

21:06

that they're not professionals. So

21:10

there was a lot of running around kind

21:12

of, well, this isn't working. What are we gonna do

21:14

now? Let's try this tool.

21:16

Where's this at? Hey, I forgot something in the

21:18

vehicle. I got to run out and grab another tool

21:21

kind of thing. So no, it wasn't a well-planned out,

21:23

well-rehearsed Oceans 11 type

21:25

of heist. How many

21:27

suspects are inside the restaurant? Two,

21:30

was there a common way that they got into

21:32

both businesses in terms of how they broke

21:34

in through a door, through window? Through

21:37

a door. One, they pried open and

21:39

the other one, they just broke. So in the second

21:41

one, they, at least they went around, try and

21:43

worked on the ATM, try to work on the video machines,

21:46

found the safe. And then again, on the

21:49

video, we could see them starting the fires. So

21:52

didn't get really very good facial

21:54

recognition, but we did have clothing that

21:57

we could definitely identify.

21:58

And could you see well enough?

21:59

if it was two males,

22:02

a male and a female.

22:03

Yes, we were able to see it was two males. So

22:05

we had pretty good video and

22:07

we've got two crimes with

22:10

the exact same pattern facts. And

22:12

so now we're looking at possibly

22:14

two people at least. Unfortunately, still

22:16

didn't really have any suspects

22:18

until we got an anonymous call

22:21

and they said, hey, you might want to look at Carl

22:24

and Bill. And that was it. We're like, okay.

22:27

And now we have a name. One of the

22:29

detectives in our unit went

22:31

to talk to a inmate at

22:33

the local jail in regards to some separate

22:36

burglaries. And when they

22:38

were talking to them, they mentioned

22:41

Bill.

22:42

You might want to look at Bill for these incidents.

22:45

So now we had a couple of names

22:47

that we could start doing a little background check,

22:50

finding out who they are, who's their associates,

22:53

what do they do, where have they been? And that

22:56

kind of gave us a direction to

22:58

start looking.

22:59

We did find out that Bill and Carl

23:02

had been named in some county

23:04

burglaries.

23:05

So the county kind of had them on their radar

23:08

also. Had you ever had any contact

23:10

with Carl or Bill? I had not

23:12

personally, but I was familiar with

23:14

their names. Right, and that's kind of how it goes

23:16

for you. Like, I've never met him, but I

23:19

know who he hangs out with. Yes,

23:21

it's a six degrees of separation.

23:24

So that second arson

23:27

robbery was a month after the first

23:28

one, the one I had gotten.

23:31

And then about six days after the

23:34

second robbery slash

23:36

arson we're sitting around in the office

23:39

early morning, sun shining, and

23:42

over the radio, dispatch

23:45

puts out a call that there had

23:47

been a shooting at

23:49

a bank and someone was dead. And

23:51

so we just all kind of looked around

23:53

at each other and like, did we hear what we

23:56

just heard? Sure enough, dispatch came

23:58

back over and said, yep, there was a bank.

23:59

There had been a shooting and someone

24:02

was dead.

24:03

It was all hands on deck

24:05

and everyone grabbed their gear

24:07

and just headed out

24:09

towards the bank.

24:11

Couple of detectives were able to get there first

24:14

and they did establish that someone

24:16

had died, was in the parking lot.

24:19

And what they had found out is that

24:22

a car had pulled up to an

24:24

armored car

24:25

at the bank as the armored car was doing its

24:27

deposits and dropping off money.

24:30

One of the subjects jumped out of

24:32

the car with a couple of handguns and

24:35

second subject jumped out, was running behind

24:37

him and

24:38

then there was a getaway driver.

24:40

As they approached the two armored

24:42

guards telling us give your money, the armored

24:45

guards were a little bit quicker on the draw and

24:47

they started firing. The armored guards

24:50

shot one of the suspects, there's

24:52

one who died there in the parking lot and

24:56

hit the other one and ended up hitting the

24:58

car as they were shooting at him. And

25:00

lo and behold, the one that had died

25:02

in the parking lot who had the

25:04

guns was Bill. So

25:07

that kind of gave us an idea of we

25:09

know who we're dealing with. So those

25:11

detectives were able to get vehicle description

25:14

of the getaway car and

25:16

they pulled the security video

25:19

from the bank and we got a description

25:21

of the car really quick and

25:23

that there would have been two subjects in the

25:26

car. That's happening within

25:28

minutes. They're pulling up the video, getting the

25:30

vehicle description out. Myself and another

25:32

detective are driving the area and dispatch

25:35

says, hey, there's a suspicious vehicle

25:37

about five or six blocks away that matches

25:40

the description of the getaway car.

25:42

So we drive to the area right away,

25:45

patrol had got there at this

25:48

time, county's there. I mean, everyone's

25:50

coming in to help.

25:51

I believe even state patrol started

25:53

rolling that way.

25:55

So we get up there to the car and sure enough,

25:58

it's the getaway car. It's got a few.

25:59

and there were bullet holes in it.

26:01

And looking in the car real quick,

26:03

we could see that there were pieces of

26:05

scalp and blood on

26:07

the headliner of the car. So

26:10

we're like, well, somebody got hit, so we know someone's

26:12

injured. So you've already seen Bill and you

26:14

know what his wounds are. When you find

26:16

the getaway car and you find scalp

26:19

on the headliner, you know that

26:21

there's someone else injured because Bill

26:23

doesn't have injuries to his scalp. Yes,

26:26

and at that time,

26:29

everything's kind of coming in really quick.

26:31

Dispatch got another call from one of the

26:33

neighbors in that neighborhood who said that

26:36

they had been watching this dark

26:38

colored strange car just parked

26:41

out in the street and they'd never seen this car before.

26:43

Well, luckily this caller was diligent

26:46

enough. They actually got the county

26:48

of the plate.

26:50

Didn't get the car, but they said the county on

26:52

the plate stuck out, so they remembered which county

26:54

the car was from.

26:55

So Chris, in your state, they

26:59

actually have the county on

27:01

the car license plate because that's

27:03

not true in every state. Like we don't have that

27:06

in California, but in this case, as

27:09

you investigate, I should think that could

27:11

make your job a little easier.

27:13

Yeah,

27:14

and they also said, hey, my neighbor has video.

27:17

So we went in and talked to that owner of that house

27:19

and they pulled up their video surveillance

27:23

and we were able to watch the dark colored

27:25

strange car that had been sitting there pull

27:27

up and park. And a little bit while

27:29

here comes the getaway car, pulls

27:32

in front of the dark car, two people get

27:34

out.

27:35

One of them

27:36

was limping really bad. And

27:38

we found out later why they both

27:40

run to the dark colored car and the dark

27:42

colored car takes off.

27:44

Do they just leave the getaway car there? Yep.

27:48

Is the abandoned car, is that a stolen car?

27:50

Well, yes and no. So

27:53

as you may know, and have probably dealt with this

27:55

many times before when a major crime or

27:57

something happens and you have

27:59

a...

27:59

vehicle description, within

28:02

minutes, the owner is like, oh, my

28:04

car was stolen. And this happened

28:07

also, was the owner of the getaway

28:09

car

28:10

called in as this is going on and,

28:13

oh, I just wanna say my car got stolen.

28:15

Okay. I got a bridge to sell you as well.

28:18

I love that. It's always like, hey, how long

28:20

before we get a stolen car, call into dispatch.

28:23

Oh, here it's coming. Yeah,

28:25

and it happens so many times, it's almost like

28:27

clockwork. You're just waiting for it, like you said,

28:30

when's it gonna happen?

28:31

So we got the video and we're able to get

28:33

a much clear description

28:36

of what type of vehicle the second

28:39

getaway car was, we really get a model

28:42

and a year of what we thought it

28:44

was, and then we also had the county. So

28:46

we had the dispatch center run all

28:49

types of that vehicle from that county,

28:51

which they did it. And again, at this time, since

28:54

a bank armored car had been attempted

28:57

to be robbed, now the FBI is there

29:00

and everyone's coming in to give us resources

29:03

and help that we need to investigate this.

29:05

So we had run the search through

29:08

dispatch,

29:09

retrieved the video surveillance

29:11

of the two getaway cars and the two

29:13

suspects running to the second getaway car.

29:15

This is the video surveillance footage

29:17

you got from the neighbor's camera. Correct.

29:21

So we downloaded that, had the

29:23

first getaway car towed to

29:25

our lab processing for search

29:28

warrants. So we could then process it

29:30

at a later time.

29:31

At that time, we went back to the

29:33

station real quick to kind of regroup.

29:36

And as we got there, things

29:38

just were continuing to come in and

29:40

move at a pretty fast pace. We've got information

29:43

that a subject was

29:45

at a house and he had been shot

29:48

and he was looking for medical attention. More

29:50

clues are rolling in. Yes. Could

29:53

be a coincidence. Yeah. So

29:56

myself and another detective went out to this house to

29:58

put up surveillance. We sat on the

30:00

house and watched it for not

30:02

very long until we saw

30:05

two cars leaving that

30:07

residence. And one of them looked

30:09

like a possible suspect

30:11

that had been involved in the attempted

30:14

armored car robbery. So we followed

30:16

them down the road so we can get enough patrol officers

30:19

there. And we pulled the car over and

30:21

we went to the first car. And

30:24

as I got there, you can

30:26

see the subject in the one car sitting there

30:28

telling me to get out, keep your hands up, get out of

30:30

the car. And we opened the door for him and he says,

30:34

I can't move very well, I've been shot. So

30:37

again, a clue. Another clue. Yes,

30:39

I think we were on the right track.

30:41

So we got him out of the car, got him

30:44

medical attention and is

30:46

one of the detectives was talking to him. Of

30:49

course, he right away said, I'm not gonna talk

30:51

to you.

30:52

Chris, is this guy who, when you get him out

30:54

of the car, he goes, I can't move very well, cause I've been shot.

30:56

Is he the person that calls in

30:58

and says, I need medical attention?

31:00

Or is that a different person at this

31:02

house? No, so this is Rob.

31:05

He had called someone and told

31:07

them that, hey, I've been shot. I need someone

31:09

to help get me medical attention. And then- That

31:12

person called 911. Yes.

31:15

But Rob wouldn't call 911 and say, I need

31:17

medical attention. Because why would you do that?

31:19

Sometimes

31:19

they show up at the hospital.

31:22

They'll just roll in and say, I was cleaning

31:24

my gun and I shot myself or whatever.

31:26

So that happens. Typically what we will do

31:29

is if we've got somebody who's outstanding from

31:31

a crime scene that we know probably

31:33

got hit or injured seriously, we

31:36

just start calling the hospitals and say, hey,

31:38

just keep your eyes open. If somebody comes

31:40

in with this type of wound, make sure you call

31:42

us. Yeah. And that's happened before,

31:45

but we have had times where someone

31:48

will get shot and they think that

31:49

they can self-medicate. And

31:52

it gets to a point a few days later where

31:55

the gangrene sets in and things are going

31:57

downhill pretty quickly, end up showing at the hospital.

31:59

Right.

31:59

Rob's trying to gut it out, but ooh,

32:02

that's a big ask. Yeah,

32:04

it doesn't usually go very well.

32:06

And I think in this case, you probably

32:08

wouldn't have

32:09

seeked medical attention voluntarily.

32:12

I think he was looking for someone maybe who could help him

32:15

and it didn't work out. Yeah, headed

32:17

to the local veterinarian's office for

32:19

some offline medical care. Yeah,

32:22

can I Google that? So

32:25

there was another car that had been with him when

32:27

he left and there were two gentlemen in there.

32:29

We talked to them real quick.

32:30

That had been with Rob when he left?

32:33

With Rob, when he left the house, yep. We

32:35

followed both vehicles and when we

32:37

stopped both vehicles, you know, when we got

32:39

them all out, Rob was in the vehicle

32:41

by himself

32:43

and then the other two gentlemen were in a separate

32:45

vehicle. So we talked to them real

32:47

quick. They didn't have anything to

32:49

do with the attempted

32:52

armored robbery. They had no connection

32:54

with it whatsoever. Rob just showed up at their place.

32:57

And Chris, at this point in time with Rob, you

32:59

know, he's been shot. Do you know, is

33:01

he shot as being one of the

33:04

perpetrators who had gotten out of the car

33:07

or was he shot as the getaway

33:09

driver? And when that car is receiving bullets,

33:11

one of those bullets over penetrated and

33:13

caught him. We were able to kind of figure

33:16

out that Rob was one that had

33:18

gotten out of the car and

33:20

got hit because when we watched the

33:22

video of

33:24

the two people getting out of the first getaway car, getting

33:26

into the second getaway car, one was

33:28

limping. Well, where Rob had been hit would

33:30

have been perfect for someone that would

33:33

probably end up limping afterwards. Yeah.

33:36

I have to point out, you have these armored

33:38

car employees that

33:40

are ambushed, caught by surprise,

33:43

but they win the gunfight decidedly. Yes.

33:46

I love that. Yeah, they did a really good job.

33:48

Armored cars. So I was on patrol

33:51

earlier in my career and I come off this

33:53

freeway off

33:54

ramp and there's an armored car parked on

33:56

the shoulder of the road. Like broken down? I'm

33:58

thinking broken down. or you just

34:01

don't see that. Like it was an odd place for

34:03

this armored car to be. So I stop

34:06

behind it, activate my lights and

34:08

get out. And I am promptly

34:11

greeted by one of the guards who

34:13

says, don't

34:14

take another step closer. Oh, by one of

34:16

the armored car guards? Yeah, they don't mess around.

34:18

Those guys, like they are alert and

34:21

they do not like to be walked

34:23

up on. So I'm having this dialogue with

34:26

this armored car guard from 15,

34:28

20 feet away. And I said, hey, look, man, like

34:31

I'm a real police officer. You can call my dispatch

34:33

right now. I'm just checking on you. And

34:36

they're just basically wired that

34:39

everybody is a threat. So maybe,

34:41

but I was gonna knock off the armored

34:43

car and I'm not a real cop. I've got

34:45

a cop car and I've got the monkey

34:47

suit on that we call it, but yeah,

34:50

they do not mess around. And it sounds like these

34:52

armored car guards were- No different.

34:55

They were prepared.

34:59

So while we were talking to the two

35:01

gentlemen

35:10

that had been

35:12

with Rob,

35:13

one of these gentlemen said, Rob told him

35:15

that Tammy

35:17

had dropped him off, which goes

35:19

back to the vehicle that we had

35:22

run the search on, the second

35:24

getaway car that picks the two up and

35:26

drives away. This is again the

35:29

car swap that happens on that

35:31

residential street after the armored car

35:33

robbery.

35:34

Correct. Well, after we had dealt with

35:36

Rob, dispatch came back with the registered

35:38

owners

35:39

of that vehicle and it came back to

35:41

Tammy.

35:42

So the dark car is registered

35:44

to Tammy. Yes, with the other county

35:47

license plate.

35:48

So we contact a relative

35:51

of Tammy who was also on the registration and

35:53

they say, well, Tammy should

35:55

be at home,

35:57

which is down actually in our state capital.

35:59

And I

36:01

hadn't seen her in a while, but it's her car. She

36:03

drives it, so she should be home. So

36:06

we reach out to Tammy and

36:08

I talked to her on the phone and she said,

36:11

oh, I wasn't truthful with my

36:13

mom. I actually did come up there yesterday

36:15

to visit a friend. Like interesting.

36:19

Who are you up here visiting?

36:21

She says, well, my friend Carl. I'm

36:23

like, okay,

36:24

great. Well, now we have a connection. So

36:28

we reached out to the law enforcement

36:30

down there and actually some of the FBI agents

36:32

were nice enough to go over to Tammy's house. She said

36:34

she was at home. So they went over and

36:37

made contact with Tammy and sat with her

36:39

while myself and other detective, you

36:42

know, hopped in the car and it was several hours away to

36:44

get there. So we just hauled down there at

36:46

the speed limit. That's

36:50

very responsible. Yes.

36:54

So we got to Tammy's house. I mean, this

36:56

is late at night. We got down there

36:58

to Tammy's house and interviewed

37:01

Tammy. We told her she's not under

37:03

arrest, but we need to find out what's going on.

37:05

Can we just sit down and talk with you for a while? And

37:08

she did and proceeded

37:10

to lie. And the more we

37:12

talked to her, told her how important

37:14

this was, what had happened.

37:17

Someone had died. She kind of started

37:19

to come forward with a little bit more facts.

37:22

She admitted, yes, I had gone up there the day before

37:25

to visit Carl. He's a family

37:28

friend,

37:29

but she didn't know anything about the

37:31

attempted armored car robbery.

37:34

And

37:35

once we told her we had video, would your car

37:37

be on the video?

37:39

Well, maybe it

37:40

could be.

37:41

I'm like, okay. We asked about

37:43

Carl and, you know, does something happen to Carl?

37:45

And she said, well, yeah, he did bleed

37:48

in my car. He had a bloody nose. And

37:50

we're like, oh, okay. Well, now you're establishing

37:52

that he did bleed in her car,

37:55

which was great. And then she decided she

37:57

didn't want to talk anymore.

37:58

Okay. So we ended up

38:01

seizing Tammy's cell phone and

38:03

seize Tammy's car,

38:04

which matched perfect description

38:07

of the video we'd seen earlier. That's tough

38:09

to refute in a courtroom. You telling

38:11

me, Tammy, that's not your car? Right.

38:14

And she admitted it was, when we were leaving

38:16

Tammy's house,

38:18

I said, listen, Tammy, I know you said you didn't wanna talk

38:20

anymore, but this is more out of a life-saving

38:23

humanity question. We know

38:25

Carl could be injured. I just

38:27

wanna make sure he's not, you know, dead lying somewhere.

38:31

And she said, well, yeah, he's

38:33

got an injury. And I said, well, is he alive? And

38:35

she said, yeah, he's alive. Are you

38:37

surmising that the blood on the headboard

38:39

of the car interior is likely

38:42

from Carl? Yes.

38:44

And it's also Carl's brain matter

38:46

that's on the headliner of the car. Skelp

38:48

and some hair. And yeah, we're kind of

38:50

putting that picture together now. So we

38:53

went back late that night, the detective

38:56

and I,

38:57

got a few hours of sleep. And

38:59

then we got

39:01

back to the office. The next morning

39:04

when we got in the office, the other detective who

39:06

had gone down to interview Tammy

39:08

with, kind of reached out to Carl on

39:10

social media and he responded. So

39:13

the detective and Carl are having a conversation

39:15

over social media, saying, hey, we need to talk

39:17

to you. It's important. Carl

39:19

was saying, yeah, I'll come in in

39:22

a day or two. I'm

39:23

out of state

39:24

doing something else. Trying to get his nose

39:27

to stop bleeding. Yeah. So

39:29

we, at the same time, we're

39:31

using some technology that we have available

39:34

to us to find out exactly where

39:36

Carl is. Did a joint investigation

39:39

with the FBI, did that give you guys some

39:41

more resources as far as technology?

39:44

It did. Later on, it helped out

39:46

a lot. We were kind of running

39:48

with what we had now, but they were definitely there helping

39:50

us and giving us anything we needed

39:52

or any help that we needed.

39:54

So we were able to kind of figure out where Carl is.

39:57

And again, we

39:59

headed back.

39:59

down to where we believed Carl

40:02

was at,

40:03

met up with the local police

40:05

department, and went

40:08

out and set up surveillance. I

40:10

stayed back at the local police department

40:13

just in case we needed to write search warrants, in

40:15

case we had to get into a house or a car

40:17

or anything. So

40:19

detectives, local and

40:21

our detectives set up surveillance, and

40:24

while they're in the area, they notice a car

40:27

that had

40:28

the name of the county we're from.

40:30

So they're like, well, again, that's

40:32

a clue. So we had dispatch

40:35

run the license plate and

40:37

it came back to the father of Carl. So

40:39

we knew we were in the right area. And luckily

40:41

enough, shortly after that, Carl

40:44

and a couple family members actually came out

40:46

of the house, got in the car,

40:49

and were trying to leave. So then the local PD

40:52

did a traffic stop on them. And

40:54

we were able to find Carl in the car. So

40:57

Carl was read as Miranda writes right there

41:00

on the scene.

41:01

The detective who was out there said

41:04

he noticed that he had a large wound

41:06

on his head that looks like they had tried to self-medicate.

41:09

Carl

41:09

had this large wound? Yes. So

41:12

he didn't mention anything at the time, just

41:15

made note of that.

41:16

Carl was brought back to the police department where

41:19

I was at

41:20

and they talked to his parents at

41:23

the scene. They were cooperative. So

41:26

they got all the information they need. So we did not need to

41:28

write any search warrants to get in any houses

41:30

or anything.

41:31

So the other investigator who

41:33

had originally been the first on

41:35

the scene at the armored car robbery went in

41:38

to interview Carl and

41:41

clarified. Yes, you've read Miranda. Do

41:43

you understand that? Yes. He said,

41:45

I'd like to talk to you about the armored

41:47

car robbery. What happened the other morning

41:50

back in town. Carl said, I don't know what you're talking

41:52

about. Now, this was a great interrogation

41:54

technique.

41:55

He looked at him and said, we have bits

41:57

of your scalp and hair in the ceiling liner

41:59

of. the car, Carl, and

42:02

that was kind of what broke the dam.

42:04

He's like, okay, all right. And Carl

42:07

proceeded to tell, you know, all his involvement

42:09

in the armored car robbery.

42:11

I love that the detectives like, so

42:14

the part of your body that's missing right

42:16

now, we actually have back in our police department.

42:20

Yes, and that was basically it. I kind

42:22

of had to chuckle when I was watching in on the

42:24

interview from the other room. And sometimes

42:27

you just have to hit them with the facts to

42:29

get him to talk. So Carl talked

42:31

about that, kind of gave a general overview

42:33

of what had happened that morning.

42:36

And then the detective asked him about

42:38

the first arson, the one that I

42:40

had originally been called in on. So

42:42

I came in and interviewed Carl

42:45

in regards to the first arson, and lo

42:47

and behold,

42:48

who does he blame?

42:50

Bill, and Bill's dead. You know,

42:52

blame the dead guy for, you know, what

42:54

happened. So Carl didn't really give anything

42:56

up in regards to the first arson robbery.

43:00

He kept blaming it on Bill and

43:03

a third person. And I'm

43:05

like, well, I know that's probably not true. Carl

43:08

was transported back to our

43:11

city a few days later. So

43:13

I went over to interview him about the first arson

43:16

robbery.

43:17

And he finally, he did say, okay,

43:19

yes, I just drove the car.

43:22

I didn't actually have anything to do

43:24

with it. Bill and another guy

43:26

went in and they did it. I

43:29

fell asleep in the car, but I drove it. And

43:31

I'm like, okay, Carl, that's fine.

43:34

So I went back at that time. We

43:36

now had Carl's phone. We

43:39

had some information

43:41

regarding the second arson

43:43

robbery. And

43:45

we were able to pinpoint

43:47

them at a gas station right before the second arson

43:50

robbery. So now we had the

43:52

clothing description, what they were wearing

43:54

inside the second arson.

43:57

And we knew who they were. So search warrants

43:59

were done. were able to recover the

44:01

clothing they were actually wearing in the second

44:05

arson robbery.

44:06

So then we went back again to talk

44:08

to Carl,

44:10

kind of laid this information out to

44:12

him and he ended up,

44:14

yes, okay, I was involved. That

44:17

was me inside the second arson,

44:19

kind of

44:20

described what happened, kept saying

44:22

that there was this third person involved. And

44:24

again, I interviewed Carl about

44:27

my arson robbery, the first one that kicked

44:29

this all off. And he

44:31

again said, I only drove the car.

44:34

They went inside, they did it all. So

44:37

you knew what they were gonna do when you went there.

44:40

And he said, yes, I did. So

44:43

that makes Carl accountable for

44:45

the full crime also knowing

44:47

that he's over there, knowing what they're gonna do

44:49

and driving them there. It's just not believable

44:52

that you would be the lookout for a robbery.

44:55

And fall asleep in the car. And you fall asleep.

44:57

That's just absurd. Yeah,

45:00

and that's one of the things when you interview people

45:03

and you hear stories like this, you just kind of

45:05

lock it away in the back of your head and you're like,

45:08

my BS meter is pegging out right

45:10

now, but I'm gonna go with it and I'll let you keep

45:12

talking. Yeah, in jury's track, they're

45:14

like, really? Exactly.

45:17

So Carl put himself there involved

45:20

in the first arson robbery, admitted

45:22

that he was involved in the second arson

45:24

robbery. And we had his

45:26

DNA proving that he was involved

45:29

in the armored car

45:30

attempted robbery. One of

45:33

the interesting things to note,

45:35

DNA does not come back like

45:37

people think. You send it off and a

45:39

week later you get results. Sometimes

45:42

it takes quite a while. When I mentioned

45:44

that work glove that was found in the middle of

45:46

a road for the first arson robbery, guess

45:49

whose DNA came back in that work glove. Could

45:51

it be Carl? It was Carl's, yes. Carl's

45:54

DNA in the glove from

45:56

the first arson robbery. Carl's a

45:59

sloppy criminal. Yeah, usually

46:01

narcotics are involved, so sometimes the clearest

46:03

decisions aren't made. And

46:06

I think in this case, that happened. How

46:08

old is this crew? Carl, Rob, Bill, Tammy?

46:12

Like, roughly what sort of age

46:14

group are we talking about?

46:15

Mid-upper 20s. Okay, so

46:18

young. Yeah, and again, it's just,

46:20

I think it was a lot

46:22

of things.

46:24

Quick money, quick cash.

46:25

Are they drug-addicted? I think there was narcotics

46:28

involved. That sounds like all three

46:30

of the main players have some familiarity

46:33

with the criminal justice system. Yes,

46:35

they do. Especially Carl and Bill mentioned

46:39

earlier that County had

46:41

several burglaries that they had been working,

46:44

and they were able to go back and clear up multiple

46:46

burglaries that were involved

46:48

with these guys also. So it

46:51

helped kind of wrap a lot of stuff up.

46:53

Here on the attempted robbery of the armored

46:55

car, you have a dead guy, Bill. And

46:59

was any murder charges

47:01

brought or manslaughter charges brought against

47:03

Carl and Rob, or

47:05

was that just dismissed?

47:07

Hang on, I have a question. Bill

47:10

was killed by one of the armed

47:12

guards, so why would

47:15

Rob or Carl be on

47:17

the hook for Bill's murder

47:19

or manslaughter?

47:20

This is kind of a textbook felony

47:22

murder rule case. The felony murder rule is

47:24

basically you've got multiple people who are in

47:27

commission of a violent felony. Right

47:29

here, we're talking armed robbery, right? Somebody

47:32

dies during that crime, then

47:35

the co-conspirators are

47:37

on the hook for murder charges. Now,

47:40

there are some states that are doing away with this

47:42

or they're tweaking this felony murder

47:45

rule, because if

47:47

you've got one guy who

47:50

commits the crime, but you've got two other people

47:52

who don't have the culpable mind state. What

47:55

is that? Think about it. They didn't have

47:57

any intent to kill anybody.

48:00

but one guy did. So how do you

48:02

hold those people to the same standard?

48:04

So I think it's complicated and nuanced.

48:07

I think the overarching goal of

48:09

the felony murder rule is to deter

48:11

people from committing crimes in concert

48:14

with other people. Cause there's a risk there. Somebody's

48:17

got bad trigger discipline, something goes haywire.

48:19

I mean, I always say robbery is like

48:21

a sneeze away from a murder. Yeah. So

48:25

yeah, they were brought up and they were kind

48:27

of compiled. There was such a list of charges

48:29

and so much evidence that

48:33

Carl ended up pleading. I think he

48:35

got 50 years

48:37

and Rob ended up, I think

48:39

with 15.

48:40

And what about Tammy? Tammy ended

48:42

up with five. She ended up working

48:45

out, you know, Hey, you're caught in the middle

48:47

of this. You knew what was going on.

48:50

You're going to be a getaway driver for an attempted armored

48:52

car robbery. You

48:53

know, it's probably best to cooperate.

48:56

So even though Tammy didn't

48:58

brandish a weapon during the commission

49:00

of these crimes, she was there because

49:03

she picked up the crew in the second

49:05

getaway car, the

49:07

one they drove to after the armored

49:10

truck robbery.

49:11

Correct. And you put it in terms of

49:14

Carl getting decades versus

49:16

Tammy who gets five years. That

49:19

five years is a long time, regardless.

49:21

It is. And Tammy really didn't have much of

49:23

a criminal history at all.

49:26

So it was kind of jumping

49:28

in with both feet. Yeah. That's a pretty significant

49:30

hit on your first conviction.

49:32

Yeah.

49:46

Your department, how many detectives do

49:48

you guys have in your unit? We have

49:50

eight full-time detectives. So

49:53

when you say everyone grabs their gear

49:55

and it's game on, it's truly

49:58

all hands on deck.

49:59

Yes, it is. And

50:02

then I'm taking into account, if there's

50:04

someone on vacation or not there, you're down

50:06

one or two people. Then everyone pitches

50:09

in, even our sergeants and the investigation

50:11

lieutenant will help.

50:12

If it's something big, if

50:14

we have a homicide.

50:16

Chris, I want to ask you, actually I could ask

50:18

the whole table, all you detectives.

50:21

So in the course of telling the story, you

50:23

say you talk to Tammy, she lies

50:25

to you. You talk to Carl, he lies to

50:27

you. What is it like to be in

50:29

a job where the expectation that every time

50:32

pretty much you sit down with somebody,

50:34

they're gonna lie to you? First of all, how

50:36

does that change your worldview? But also what are

50:38

you thinking as this

50:40

is going on? Chris, you answer first,

50:42

because this is your episode.

50:44

It's disheartening sometimes,

50:46

because even when you're speaking with someone that

50:49

just doesn't even have

50:51

a horse in the race or not even seriously

50:53

involved,

50:54

they omit,

50:55

they don't tell you the whole truth.

50:59

They fabricate a little bit.

51:01

And unfortunately it

51:02

does kind of jade you a little bit because

51:05

you just assume everyone you're talking

51:08

to, whether it's the 90

51:10

year old lady in a traffic accident or

51:12

down to kids, they're gonna tell

51:14

you

51:15

half truths and fabrications and lies.

51:18

And that's just why it's good to

51:21

be able to talk to people,

51:24

especially in investigations

51:26

when you do interviews and interrogations, just

51:29

have the patience just to sit down and talk with people

51:32

and build that rapport and get that baseline.

51:34

Because then when you get into the meat and

51:36

potatoes of it, you kind of know when the BS

51:38

meter is going off.

51:40

So you have to establish in the face

51:42

of this first

51:44

pretty significant roadblock them lying

51:46

to you, you still have to find a way

51:48

to establish enough trust where

51:50

they're gonna

51:51

take the wall down. That's the goal.

51:53

Yes, that is the goal. And that

51:56

comes with, like I said, rapport building

51:58

from the beginning. Most of the time,

51:59

if you just sit down and talk

52:03

to someone, not like

52:04

investigator or suspect, you

52:07

know, you just talk to them as a person and find out

52:09

what their interests are and maybe connect

52:11

on those interests and start a conversation.

52:14

They become more comfortable talking to you and

52:16

then kind of when the hard things come around, they're

52:18

a little bit more receptive

52:21

to the questions and they're a little bit more

52:23

willing to give you the answers.

52:24

It's such a strange occupational hazard

52:27

of all y'alls. What about

52:29

you, Dan? I would echo what

52:31

Chris said. I think you also have to

52:33

build enough trust

52:36

with the person you're talking to that

52:38

they actually start to believe that

52:40

it's in their best interest to be honest

52:43

and truthful and forthcoming with facts. So

52:46

pretty much every interview that I would sit down in, I

52:48

was prepared for the lies because

52:50

it typically starts with the lies and

52:53

as you go and you confront people with facts,

52:56

the story begins to change and

52:58

they start getting on board and they realize

53:01

I'm painted into a corner. Really, my only

53:04

option now is to be honest.

53:06

Meaning the suspects just feel

53:08

like I'm painted into a corner. Exactly.

53:10

Dev? I always go back to prosecutors

53:14

love provable lies.

53:16

And just explain one more time what those are. A

53:18

provable lie is if somebody asked

53:20

me today, were you in Los Angeles

53:23

over the weekend? And I said,

53:25

no, I was home. That's an easily

53:27

provable lie. And I always say, I'm like,

53:29

if you will lie about the little things, like

53:33

what's your address? I don't really have one. Dude,

53:36

I just arrested you at your house. What's your address?

53:39

Like if you're gonna lie about real tiny inconsequential

53:42

stuff, why would I ever believe that

53:44

you're gonna give me the goods on a

53:47

crime that could deprive you of your freedom

53:49

for a decade? There's a lot

53:51

on the line when a suspect

53:54

sits down across from a detective and suspects

53:57

do a lot of, I wonder what he knows, they're

53:59

probing. want to know how

54:01

can I make it appear like I'm cooperative? How

54:04

can I make myself appear credible and

54:06

honest? It's just a game. And

54:09

I never took that game personally,

54:11

because I realize that person's

54:13

got a lot at stake. And that's

54:15

probably key for you, the detective,

54:18

not to take it personally. It really is.

54:20

When I see videos of detectives

54:23

who are crawling into people's faces

54:26

within minutes of entering the interview room,

54:28

I'm like,

54:29

let me guess, your confession rate's about 1%.

54:33

You have to be able to relate to people. So when

54:35

Chris says, you have to talk to people. The

54:38

minute I give off any air of

54:40

I'm judging you, or I think you're a horrible

54:42

person, that person feels

54:44

that energy in the room. It's poker FaceTime.

54:47

I shouldn't be able to tell what I'm feeling

54:50

if I look in the mirror based on what I'm hearing

54:52

from the suspect. You really have to be

54:54

measured. And it's

54:56

not about you. This person didn't hurt

54:59

you. Don't take it personally. You are there to

55:01

gather facts and get to the truth.

55:03

That's your responsibility. There's

55:05

no personal stake involved, unless

55:07

you try to hurt me. Sure, sure. What

55:10

I see with inexperienced officers

55:12

is they're not patient enough. You

55:15

have to be patient in the room or out

55:17

on the street when you're on patrol and you're doing an

55:19

interview out on the street. You have to

55:22

be patient. I think a lot of people, they

55:24

wanna rush through the process and

55:26

it's different for everyone.

55:28

The barrier to the truth is

55:30

different for every suspect. That's a great

55:32

point. Is it my freedom? Is

55:34

it my family? Is it my health? Is

55:37

it financially, if I'm gone,

55:39

does my family survive? There's

55:41

so many barriers that suspects

55:44

have to jump over before they become

55:47

truthful that you just

55:49

have to identify that. You can't do it in two

55:51

minutes.

55:52

It's a dance. We've talked about it many times.

55:54

It's a dance. How about you, Paul? But

55:56

I come from this from a very different

55:59

set of experiences.

55:59

than Chris, Dan or Dave

56:02

because in the cold case world, I'm not sitting

56:04

down frequently and interviewing suspects. Most

56:07

of my interviews, I'm dealing with victims, victims,

56:09

families, witnesses, and

56:11

the interview, that's a very different skillset,

56:14

but I'm constantly evaluating

56:17

suspect statements. And

56:19

that's where it's really understanding

56:22

what their motive is, the jeopardy

56:25

they are in, to

56:27

see are they being honest

56:30

when they are being interviewed by let's say an

56:32

original investigator? Is there

56:35

statements that they're making that

56:37

are factually correct with

56:40

how I know the case or am

56:42

I seeing they are lying? Why

56:44

are they lying? Does this elevate

56:47

them in my investigation

56:49

as somebody that I need to be looking at a

56:51

little bit further? And today's

56:53

point related to prosecutors love provable

56:56

lies. I've had DA's say

56:58

they'd rather not have a confession. They'd

57:00

rather have all these

57:02

statements that they can just throw one

57:05

after another in front of the jury.

57:07

The defendant is lying about this, he's lying

57:09

about this. Do you think he's telling the truth that he's

57:11

innocent in this case? Confessions

57:14

are often thrown out. They never get

57:16

put into court in the first place. And

57:18

so they want statements and too many

57:21

detectives are so confession

57:24

driven in their interview. They want

57:26

that home run and they fail

57:28

to be patient and take the time to

57:31

just gather information. Whether the information

57:33

is truthful or not, that

57:36

information could potentially

57:37

be very useful down the road. I

57:39

was thinking too Chris as you were saying, so

57:42

you have the first robbery

57:44

arson, then you have the second

57:47

robbery arson, then there's the shooting

57:50

which ends up being billed. And you guys

57:52

in your detective bureau are

57:54

looking at each other going, what? And

57:57

I would say when people ask us, why did

57:59

you start the shooting?

57:59

this podcast, first of all, we

58:02

wanted to present cases from law enforcement's

58:04

point of view to give you guys a

58:06

real opportunity to explain

58:08

what you do and how you do it from soup to nuts

58:11

because I think it's a unique perspective

58:13

and not one that we the public get

58:15

very often. But the reason

58:17

the podcast is called Small Town Dicks is

58:19

because big time crime is

58:21

happening in small towns everywhere with

58:24

the same level of depravity and

58:26

reckless disregard for human life but with

58:28

somewhat less frequency.

58:29

So when you guys have

58:32

this rash of crimes going on

58:34

in your small district, it's

58:37

like that's not how it's supposed to be, but it is

58:39

how it is. And then you think of the

58:41

collateral damage of these businesses,

58:44

these people's livelihoods being destroyed

58:46

are so deeply compromised that maybe

58:49

there's no way back from that. The ripple effect

58:51

is profound.

58:52

It is big. Luckily,

58:55

the first arson robbery, they

58:57

were able to rebuild even bigger

58:59

and better. But the second

59:01

one, they just weren't able to recoup

59:03

anything and it's gone forever. So

59:06

decades of people's entertainment

59:08

and family fun and going

59:11

out is gone. And

59:12

in business, they're probably really proud of

59:14

having built. Oh, absolutely. If

59:16

you mentioned the name of the businesses, I mean,

59:19

everyone knew them. So

59:21

it was sad. I'll say this, Chris

59:23

was describing the day of the armored

59:25

car attempted robbery. And days

59:29

like that, when that happens, you get the call and everyone's

59:31

looking around at each other in the office. All the detectives

59:33

are looking around at each other and you're saying

59:36

it's game time. And like that

59:38

day is the thing that I miss

59:40

the most about police work, the

59:43

pace of it. It's such a fast pace

59:45

and you're hunting down leads and you're doing surveillance

59:48

and you're trying to find these bad guys. That's

59:51

what I

59:51

miss the most. Yeah. By the time

59:53

we got done and went down to interview Tammy

59:56

and got back, we were going on almost 24

59:58

hours. So you go sleep a few hours.

1:01:56

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