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The The

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The The The

2:43

The The The

2:48

The The

2:52

The I'm

2:54

Michael Cohen, and you're listening to the Maya

2:56

Culpa podcast. Before I introduce

2:58

my next guest, I need to take

3:01

a moment to comment on the stunning

3:03

news that President Trump and the First

3:05

Lady have both tested positive for COVID-19.

3:08

As reported yesterday, consultation with this

3:10

group, I recommended we

3:12

bring the President up to Walter Reed. It's

3:15

a precautionary measure to

3:18

provide state-of-the-art monitoring and

3:20

any care that he may need. Just

3:23

72 hours into the diagnosis now, the

3:26

first week of COVID and a particular day 7 to 10

3:28

are the most critical in determining the

3:30

likely course of this illness. At

3:33

this time, the team and I are extremely happy

3:35

with the progress the President has made. Thursday,

3:38

he had a mild cough and some nasal congestion

3:41

and fatigue. That's right. Disease

3:43

and infection have reached far into the White

3:45

House and beyond. The

3:47

implications of his diagnosis are simply

3:49

enormous and stretch far beyond what

3:52

this means for the campaign and

3:54

his re-election, posing all manner

3:56

of national security and financial issues for

3:58

the country. Out of

4:01

sheer idiocy, Submit basically infected

4:03

himself. Vladimir put his watching

4:05

all of this and laughing his ass off.

4:08

Still, I wish them both the speedy

4:10

recovery despite my animus for Donald Trump

4:12

for all human beings and I was

4:15

no ill health upon any miss. That

4:17

said, I may be stunned, but

4:20

I'm certainly not surprised. He

4:22

has made the marketing of masks a central

4:24

tenet of his campaign. Is

4:26

downplayed. It's threat, lied repeatedly to

4:28

the American people about the prognosis

4:31

and he's view the entire pandemics

4:33

was selfish myopic lense. While Mr.

4:35

President, if you were worried about

4:37

how the pandemic was going to

4:40

affected chance for reelection, The. New

4:42

and really deep shit now. The

4:44

one sliver of hope you have here is a

4:46

level was the American people. Let

4:48

them know you're wrong about the Corona

4:51

virus Said everyone needs to wear a

4:53

mask that this diseases deadly and it's

4:55

spreading. He. Talks about how

4:57

the ends of the pandemic is near,

5:00

how states should reopen this schools that

5:02

you protest. Fifty six or. Thirty.

5:04

Say that we're safe.

5:07

Would not a know we are not

5:09

if the most secure place and as

5:11

is vulnerable what she is to we

5:13

have to save me open the rest

5:15

of our society. Know the only

5:17

moved to meet here is to look America

5:19

in the eye and tell us the truth

5:21

for a change. But. You want to? that?

5:23

Woo Yeah! That would mean that

5:25

citing all of the bullshit and you already

5:28

next to the new also which there's a

5:30

certain ruff climate justice in all of this.

5:32

Let's. Face it because you deserve to get

5:35

colds. It. You're practically dared

5:37

to be infected. What's troubling

5:39

and this would be investigated in the

5:41

weeks to com is the timeline. How

5:44

you hit the positive diagnosis of hope

5:46

that in order to attend a closed

5:48

door New Jersey fund raiser. I

5:50

soon everyone in that room is now getting tested

5:52

as was wondering why they just world you would

5:55

set. This is once

5:57

again start this reminder that Donald some

5:59

kids. No one or any think

6:01

that himself. And now back to

6:03

the shelf. My

6:07

guess to that you Stephanie Winston War Costs

6:09

author of the New York Times best selling

6:11

memoir Milan in Me. In

6:13

many ways, Miss Western Will Cost

6:16

is beginning to my yang. With

6:18

our books serving is disturbing Funhouse

6:20

mirror reflections of one another. Although

6:23

the chronicle to fundamentally very

6:25

different people. Their. Stories are

6:27

very much the same. I

6:29

read it though with a single the

6:31

purpose to understand how my actions and

6:34

the actions of Donald J. Trump were

6:36

viewed through the eyes of someone other

6:38

than myself. I recounted how

6:40

for over a decade there was no

6:43

one closer to Donald Trump than myself.

6:45

Now we get to complete the puzzle.

6:47

I lifting the veil on the inscrutable

6:49

Milan, you. Said.

6:53

Anderson I've seen as opposed to

6:55

I Don't Enough as on to

6:57

else. The relationship began in two thousand

6:59

and three when the first lady was a

7:01

working model and they milan in else. At

7:04

the time, Will Pop was working as

7:06

the Director of Special Events of Hope

7:08

and was one of the principal architects

7:10

behind the success of the iconic Met

7:12

Gala. It. Was there

7:15

she met Milan You and the to

7:17

became close friends attending the Trump Nuptials

7:19

in Two Thousand and Five and Milan

7:21

Use Baby Shower later that year. Meanwhile,

7:24

her own work life was thriving. Vogue

7:26

editor Anna Wintour sang her professional praises,

7:29

and The New York Times referred to

7:31

her as the Lord Chief Planner of

7:33

the Met gala. Later, she

7:35

became the Fashion Director for Lincoln Center

7:38

before branching off on her own. It

7:41

was then that Milan you called upon

7:43

her to play in the Trump Inauguration

7:45

back in New York. Molony A. has

7:47

been keeping a low profile and has

7:49

yet to fill top positions for her

7:51

role as First Lady. She has hired

7:53

New York Party planner Stephanie Winston woke

7:56

up as a senior adviser, Stephanie his

7:58

forty six and a long friend. More

8:00

years, she made a name for herself

8:02

by seizing the glamorous Meshaal off, a

8:05

rule that came in handy when she

8:07

helped plan the Trump Inaugural Ball. Under

8:10

normal circumstances, serving as Executive

8:12

producer and Chief creative officer

8:14

for the presidential inaugurations would

8:16

be a career defining achievement.

8:19

And so too would serving a senior adviser

8:21

to the First Lady of the United States.

8:24

Unfortunately, Trump. World

8:26

is a corrupt and toxic swamp. The

8:28

kills everything it touches. So

8:30

just like everyone else who encounters Donald

8:32

Trump, of me wants to walk

8:35

upstream Quickly became a living nice if. He

8:37

was forced to abruptly resigned if the

8:40

revelations that her from was paid twenty

8:42

six million to blame the inauguration. Never

8:44

mind that the media coverage of the

8:46

payouts was overblown and Winston Walkoff was

8:49

not charged with any wrong doing. Of

8:51

the dying had been test and in short

8:53

order she would be sewn onto the bus

8:56

by Milan your for issued a statement disavowing

8:58

they use among friends. In

9:00

reality, though, The. Inauguration had been

9:02

an orgy of self dealing and graft

9:05

on the part of Trump and his

9:07

cronies. It's only now being investigated by

9:09

the Southern District of New York or

9:11

spurred to action largely by revelations in

9:13

which to walk off book. intense new

9:16

scurvy tonight on President Trump's Inauguration and

9:18

a more than one hundred million dollars

9:20

racehorse Federal prosecutors in New York issuing

9:22

a wide ranging subpoena, documents and records

9:25

and how the record amount of money

9:27

was raise were came from our was

9:29

Smith. Investigators. Wanna know

9:31

who gave that money and what if

9:33

anything was expected in return? So. Which.

9:36

Had a conversation. I hope to better

9:38

understand the inner thoughts and true motivations

9:40

of Milan You in the face of

9:42

Donald Trump's destructive behavior. Or

9:45

How Woke Up puts it succinctly Or trump

9:47

as a trump as. It's

9:49

a story that many have told about Donald Trump.

9:51

But. Now it's Milan. Just turned to face the

9:54

music. and the carefully designed

9:56

facade she built to protect herself

9:58

and her reputation is to crumble.

10:01

Melania, through the White House, has

10:03

desperately fought to discredit Winston Wolkoff

10:05

and stop the book's publication. Only

10:08

the truth is a way of getting out. Let's

10:11

listen now to that conversation. So

10:15

I want to jump right into your book if we can.

10:17

You're right in the closing of your book, and

10:20

I put this in quotes, Melania told

10:22

me in her way that she was not

10:24

part of the solution. She was part

10:26

of the problem. Not speaking up

10:29

and not fighting against the problem is

10:31

being part of the problem. And

10:33

I learned that the hard way. Melania

10:36

is often presented as

10:38

this private cloistered individual above the

10:40

fray of her husband's divisiveness. But

10:42

in truth, according to your book,

10:44

you say she's just as much

10:46

a part of the muck. That's

10:48

a really great question, Michael, because so many

10:50

people envision Melania and they want to make

10:53

up their own beliefs about her. The truth

10:55

is the wall around her is her defense

10:57

mechanism. And the secret to her happiness is

11:00

to be authentically and unapologetically skin deep. The

11:02

White House wanted her to be a counterbalance to Donald,

11:05

someone with empathy and kindness. But at the end of

11:07

the day, she has

11:09

been able to control that narrative

11:12

and still be the biggest enigma.

11:14

Wow. So Melania is considered in

11:16

your view as an enigma. I

11:19

suspect that that's probably why Melania

11:22

didn't want you to publish this

11:24

book. What do you think that she

11:26

feared in terms of

11:28

what your book has to say?

11:30

I think what she fears most

11:32

is that people will realize

11:35

the truth that she's actually encouraging

11:37

Donald to go for it,

11:39

be aggressive. She's the

11:41

biggest cheerleader, but also all the

11:43

false narrative and the perception that has

11:45

been created over the years. That

11:48

is something that they hold dear to their

11:50

hearts. It's actually more important than anything. What

11:52

do you mean by false narrative? Give me an example if

11:54

you can. Perception is everything. Their

11:56

entire lives are based on falsehoods.

12:00

white lies, who they were, where

12:02

they came from, what they did. For

12:04

example, before

12:06

O'Donnell met Melania, she was single and striving.

12:09

We know she was a working model. That's

12:11

all we really know. It

12:14

was a transactional marriage for them both. The

12:17

Donald needed to be legitimized as much as

12:19

Melania did. So by rolling her out of

12:21

obscurity onto the red carpet at the Met

12:23

Gala, it was a perfect way to legitimize

12:25

his arm candy, a

12:27

new Vogue cover model, and she as

12:29

being a former and supermodel

12:32

as he keeps saying over and over. Interesting.

12:35

I mean, you're in

12:38

the same sort of boat that I am, right, to

12:40

Donald. You were to Melania. I mean,

12:42

I was his first call every morning

12:44

and his last call every night. You

12:47

were really probably

12:49

Melania's only girlfriend, so

12:51

to speak. Question

12:54

for you. Why did you dedicate the book

12:56

to her then? Because I know

12:58

I would never dedicate my book, Disloyal,

13:01

to Donald J. Trump. When

13:04

I was thinking about dedicating this book, I

13:06

just think of family first. You

13:09

really do. What they went through, the

13:11

hardships they've suffered, Michael, everything that our families have

13:13

been through. I've walked

13:16

every moment of every second of every

13:18

day, of every hardship of every tear

13:20

that we've had. But

13:22

what I wanted the world to know

13:24

was that Melania was aware of every

13:27

single thing that was going on day

13:29

in and day out, and that she

13:31

was just as much a part of

13:33

this as I was. And

13:35

so by telling

13:37

this story through my friendship

13:40

with Melania, it enabled me to

13:42

write this book to

13:44

Melania because I can substantiate every

13:46

single story that's written in here

13:48

that she was very much a

13:50

part of and at the end,

13:53

betrayed our friendship on that. You

13:55

and I have another similarity, Steph. You

13:58

were pressured by the Department of Justice. and

14:01

the Attorney General Bill Barr. Have

14:04

you had any of the fallouts from Trump world

14:06

upon release of this book? And

14:09

I bring that to what happened to

14:11

me, which was they knew that my

14:13

book, Disloyal, was going to be coming

14:15

out. And so Bill Barr took it

14:17

upon himself and as we both know

14:20

nothing goes on without

14:22

Donald Trump's approval. Bill

14:24

Barr worked it in the situation that

14:27

I was then remanded back to prison because

14:29

I refused to sign a document waving

14:33

my constitutional rights. Have

14:37

you had any other fallouts with Trump or

14:39

with Bill Barr based upon

14:41

the release of this book? Well I

14:43

think I need to back up for a second and just say

14:45

that, you know, I think being involved in three different investigations

14:49

having to do with the Trump

14:52

administration, the Trump Organization, and the

14:54

Presidential Inauguration Committee is a

14:56

full plate. Upon hearing

14:59

about this book before its release,

15:04

the White House sent

15:06

several cease and desist letters

15:09

as well as defamation claims. You received them

15:11

probably from Charles Harder. No, I actually received

15:13

them from Kazowitz. Mark Kazowitz, another

15:16

former friend of mine,

15:18

unfortunately sycophantic and

15:20

looking for the power

15:22

grab under the Trump moniker.

15:25

Look, they want to stop everyone from

15:27

speaking the truth and the reality is

15:29

I've got to advocate for the truth

15:31

just like you do, Michael, and

15:34

I feel like it's my civic duty

15:36

and not just to share my

15:38

story, but to tell the truth because of

15:40

what I witnessed, like you

15:43

witnessed firsthand working with the

15:45

Trumps and their cohorts and

15:47

their lack of honesty and

15:49

they have no loyalty whatsoever. So

15:51

for me, you know, it's a this is

15:54

a character history of graft and we know it

15:56

all too well. So in my book, Disloyal,

15:58

I talk about the day that I

16:00

stood before the House Oversight Committee,

16:02

before the late great Elijah Cummings.

16:05

And that testimony sparked

16:09

what's been said 18 different

16:11

investigations into various

16:14

different aspects of the Trump campaign

16:16

or the Trump world. Now,

16:18

your book has also set off a new

16:21

investigation into

16:23

the illegal spending and fundraising around

16:25

the inauguration. Tell us a little

16:27

bit about that. Well, when I was

16:29

originally brought in to

16:31

help produce the 58th

16:34

presidential inauguration. Well, let's start by asking, who

16:36

brought you in? Well, I had a

16:38

little conversation with Melania at the Trump

16:40

Tower about it, but the official

16:42

ass had to come from Ivanka. Why Ivanka?

16:45

Well, Melania was my friend,

16:47

and Ivanka was the official

16:51

go-between and introduced me to

16:53

the presidential inauguration committee chairman,

16:55

Tom Barrack, who as

16:58

well, Ivanka was on daily emails

17:00

as well as in daily conversations

17:02

with Rick Gates, myself, in

17:04

the planning of the inauguration. Interesting.

17:07

Okay. And so, you know, Melania

17:09

explained to you the family had a gathering,

17:11

a family gathering, and

17:13

they all agreed that

17:16

I would be the perfect quote,

17:18

perfect person to produce the inauguration. But

17:21

I don't think so much that it was

17:23

an agreement that had to do with friendship.

17:29

I think it had to do with understanding

17:31

that my Achilles heel is my loyalty, and

17:33

that I also

17:35

have the experience and the expertise to pull

17:38

off such

17:40

extravagant events under such tight frames.

17:43

You do understand that I find this

17:45

to be very comical in

17:47

the fact that I know what

17:50

was legitimately going on behind door

17:52

number one, while you're somewhere lost

17:54

behind door number two. We'll call

17:56

that the Ivanka door, right? The

17:58

Tom Barrack. door. Here's

18:01

the reality. The reality is they

18:03

had nobody within which to produce

18:06

the event. They came

18:08

to you because of your expertise.

18:10

They came to you because of

18:12

your friendship with Melania in

18:14

order to get somebody who's qualified

18:16

in order to do this, because

18:18

they had nobody. Not only did

18:20

they have nobody to produce the

18:22

event, they had nobody in order

18:24

to sing at the event. They

18:26

had no headliners. We couldn't pay

18:28

anyone enough money in order

18:31

to perform. You would say, well, how much

18:33

is that person in order to come to

18:35

form? One of the normal circumstances, they charge

18:37

a million dollars. And the

18:39

response that was received

18:41

was, I wouldn't do it

18:43

for a hundred million dollars. I'll have

18:45

no interest in being a part of

18:47

Trump's inaugural procession. So you know who

18:49

came to the rescue? Well, it sounds

18:51

to me like Ivanka and Melania threw

18:53

you. Well, they threw me into

18:55

the mix, but our greatest savior was Mark

18:58

Burnett. Well, that of course makes perfect sense.

19:00

Right. I mean, they had made what? 400. So

19:03

here's something that people don't understand.

19:07

Donald Trump owns 50%

19:09

of the apprentice. The other 50% was

19:12

owned by Mark Burnett. So if Donald Trump

19:14

made $465 million, well,

19:17

so did Mark Burnett,

19:19

right? And NBC as well. Tell

19:24

me a little bit more. They brought

19:26

you in. I'm so fascinated to hear

19:28

this because they brought you

19:30

in. They had nobody else. And yet they

19:32

still played the power move, which is that,

19:35

well, we have to check you out.

19:37

We have to make sure that we think you're

19:39

capable of doing it because if you didn't do

19:42

it, you understand nobody else was there. Well,

19:44

here's the thing, Michael, that's what I thought too. And

19:47

that's what they would made me believe. But behind the

19:49

scenes, as you said, I think there was a door

19:51

number three that neither one

19:53

of us knew about, which was what was

19:55

going on behind Donald's door day in and

19:58

day out with his presidential inauguration committee. the

20:00

entertainment committee that was created, which never

20:02

did anything. Well, how could you do

20:04

anything when every single time you ask

20:06

somebody, would you care to perform for

20:08

a million dollars at the presidential inauguration?

20:10

And they tell you, no. With

20:14

my relationships, I called

20:17

two industry insiders, John

20:20

Sykes, Ron Delzner. And

20:22

I asked for their honest opinion. What

20:24

do I do? I'm in a position where no one

20:26

wants to be a part of this. And

20:29

they were amazingly honest. And

20:33

they understood that I was coming

20:35

from a place of sincerely wanting

20:37

to produce a

20:40

presidential inauguration the United States of America would be proud

20:42

of. They couldn't even help me.

20:45

And they were at least

20:47

honest about it. Whereas everybody

20:49

else kept telling Donald, Melania,

20:51

Ivanka, from NBC, from

20:54

all of the people that have worked with them, that

20:56

they will help them. They will help them. All of

20:58

their largest, the

21:01

donors, the donors who

21:03

have access to the entertainment industry

21:06

promise the sun, the moon,

21:08

and the stars. They couldn't

21:10

deliver on one person, Elton

21:12

John, Beyonce, you name it.

21:15

But these are all relationships that they had. Right.

21:18

And there was no way that they were going to be

21:20

able to make that request. And that

21:22

request be taken seriously, because they had

21:24

already said no. They had said no

21:26

to everyone that had made the request

21:28

of them. So let me ask you

21:30

this question. Now that you have set

21:32

off this new investigation with the United

21:34

States Attorney General, you think

21:36

that this vindicates your account of what took place?

21:39

I'm so glad you asked me that question. I

21:41

really do, Michael. I feel that,

21:44

you know, I think that the

21:46

truth does prevail. And

21:48

for both of us, I think it's the most

21:50

important thing for us to speak

21:53

about. And the United

21:55

States Attorney General, District of Columbia,

21:57

called race scene dismissing the

22:00

claims that their

22:04

misdealing during the inauguration actually

22:08

do vindicate me. And it only

22:10

shows that the White House is

22:12

continuing with the narrative that I

22:14

am quote paranoid or quote creating

22:17

things that aren't true. They will

22:19

say whatever they need to to discredit

22:21

every single person that doesn't follow

22:24

the rule of law. Well you like me. Which is their rule

22:27

of law. Well Stephanie you like me spend

22:29

a lot of time with documentary

22:31

evidence in order to write your

22:33

book in order to produce the

22:37

quotes and in order to produce the stories

22:40

that you tell about your

22:42

relationship with Melania. I

22:45

don't know about you but I found

22:47

writing the book to be very difficult.

22:50

At some points I found it

22:52

cathartic but I found it very

22:54

difficult because as I'm writing and

22:57

I'm telling these stories besides for

22:59

disliking myself and looking

23:01

and saying that I really let

23:03

my moral compass go way way

23:05

south. There was

23:07

still this protection that I was thinking

23:11

of as I was writing the

23:13

stories about Trump. Do I want

23:16

to say that? What will be and then I'm saying to

23:18

myself wait wait Schmuck you're sitting

23:20

in fucking prison. What are

23:22

you doing? I'm staring at

23:24

concrete walls. I'm working at

23:26

the water treatment plant at

23:29

Otisville staring at a

23:31

concrete wall writing down stories and

23:33

every now and then I would

23:35

get this pang this feeling like

23:38

am I being disloyal to

23:40

Donald Trump? And the

23:42

more that that happened to me the more I turn

23:44

around and I said to myself yeah fuck

23:46

yeah I'm being disloyal. You know what I'm

23:49

actually not the one who's disloyal. He

23:51

is. You have the same feelings when

23:54

you're writing your book? I did and I have to tell

23:56

you the day that I finally

23:58

was able to Close the

24:00

last chapter of my book and

24:03

finish writing that last line was the

24:05

day that I actually stopped questioning myself

24:09

Except until recently when

24:11

I was put on the

24:13

spot by the White House Spokes

24:16

people saying that I was Making

24:20

my story up. Yeah, of course.

24:22

Well, then Lee did you make your

24:24

story but mine is also factually inaccurate

24:26

It's a telltale. It's it's science fiction

24:28

according to what's his name Murtaugh this

24:30

new sycophantic asshole That's sitting there in

24:33

the White House making all

24:35

sorts of allegations that are just complete

24:37

bullshit and nonsense I

24:40

do want to turn around and say to you bring up a

24:42

good point for me. I finished

24:45

the book while I was here

24:48

on home confinement and then

24:50

all of a sudden I Get

24:53

remanded back to prison Ultimately,

24:57

thank goodness to Daniel Perry my

25:00

attorney who's a fabulous fabulous lawyer

25:02

She is really one of the

25:04

kindest and most quality attorneys I've

25:06

ever come across and then judge

25:08

Hellestein I can't say enough about

25:11

that decision Determining

25:13

that Bill Barr who's named as a

25:15

defendant in my case did

25:17

this as Retaliation towards me

25:19

again for my failure to want

25:21

to release and to sign over

25:23

my constitutional rights. I Then

25:27

came home and I was like, whoa,

25:29

there's more now. I have an

25:32

ending to the story from

25:35

the final chapter and It

25:38

was only until I finally finished that and we

25:40

edited and so on and I gave it to

25:42

my publisher on a Little

25:44

thumb drive did I actually

25:47

have the feeling that you're expressing it

25:49

was almost like a weight was Lifted

25:52

from my soul, but I have to

25:54

tell you when I think of

25:56

disloyal as soon as I needed to Let

25:59

a reporter listened to the tapes because

26:01

the White House put me in that position

26:04

because they made sure that

26:06

people didn't believe what

26:08

I was saying. That little pang

26:10

came back, Michael, because I only

26:13

started pressing record once

26:15

I had already been severed and accused

26:17

of criminal activity. And so

26:19

all of a sudden, all those emotions started

26:21

coming back. And I think

26:23

of the word disloyal, which again, is

26:25

what they want people to think we

26:27

are. And that is

26:29

the furthest from the truth. And we couldn't be more loyal.

26:35

And so in that moment, I felt, oh

26:37

my God, am I being disloyal because I

26:39

really didn't plan on ever playing these tapes

26:41

or ever releasing them because they were for

26:43

my protection. But now, now,

26:45

it's a whole other game. Now I

26:48

feel that in

26:50

order to prove the fact that

26:53

what we are saying is true,

26:55

I think that

26:58

truthfulness will come across in Melania's own

27:00

words. And here

27:03

they are. How does she have

27:05

the energy? She does. And

27:08

she, you know, and she goes

27:10

there and she said, these people.

27:13

He has such a base. He has such

27:15

a base. And as we travel in the

27:17

New York City, and perhaps

27:21

in response to her republicanime

27:23

president ever, and they have

27:26

paid their bus toheethere for the360 but

27:28

to the media, they don't feel

27:31

like they are all settle, you

27:34

know, it's not out there. But

27:38

when you go into a new world it's not, you know

27:40

what I'm saying. I feel good. Even when I travel and

27:42

I go places, they you know people are amazing. Right.

27:45

It's what's going

27:48

on because you know it's a

27:51

great economy. People have

27:53

a job, unemployment, it's

27:56

down. If you google,

27:58

go google and read it. Well,

30:00

Mr. Trump, I'm in this city. Bring

30:03

more, bring the children. Made me a member of

30:05

every one of his golf courses. I had full

30:07

access to anything, including I didn't

30:09

have to pay for anything. But I said to

30:11

him, if I come to the club, I'll take

30:13

the membership. But if I eat something, I have

30:15

to pay for it. Otherwise, I won't enjoy it.

30:18

And if I'm going to play tennis, or one

30:20

of my children are going to play tennis, or

30:22

we're going to play golf, I have to pay

30:24

for that. Now, hindsight being 20-20,

30:26

what an idiot I am. I should have

30:28

done what everybody else in the Trump organization

30:30

does. But the difference with that, Michael, is

30:32

that Melania didn't have access to giving me

30:34

anything. I actually opened the door for her

30:37

while I was working at Vogue. And I think

30:39

I was more of an attraction to Melania and

30:41

Donald for them, because what were

30:43

they doing for me? It

30:45

wasn't as if I needed anything from them. I

30:48

actually saw Melania as this

30:50

nice, sweet, young, striving

30:53

model that I befriended.

30:56

She was sweet, she was friendly. Andre and I would

30:58

help her get ready for the gala, and we would spend

31:00

more time with her, and we would have lunches with her.

31:02

And the more we got to know her, the more we

31:04

liked her. So it's

31:08

interesting where people say, oh, she hung on

31:10

to the Trumps because of their celebrity. Or

31:13

actually, it's quite the other way around. What

31:16

I did for Melania is enabled

31:18

her to be a part of the

31:20

fashion and entertainment industry in a very

31:22

different way. In a very high way. Very

31:24

high profile. More

31:28

than high profile. Would you say huge? Yeah.

31:32

There you go. So

31:34

we're talking about now pre-Melania

31:36

to the marriage. So it was

31:38

around this time that Melania in

31:41

your book, you state, received

31:43

a makeover from legendary Vogue editor, and

31:46

you just referred to him, Andre Leon

31:48

Talley. Do You think

31:50

there was a conscious effort made

31:52

to construct a new, classy Melania?

31:54

We'll call her, for example, a

31:56

Melania 2.0 that can go along

31:58

with Donald Trump's. Sort of

32:00

arm burnished image as a

32:03

result of the apprentice because

32:05

you're writing your book. I

32:07

was there in the beginning and wants

32:09

to go from gold plate to twenty

32:11

four Tara Gold you but. But.

32:14

Here's the thing. No one of those

32:16

entre myself or anyone else had any idea

32:18

that we are playing a role in the

32:20

making of a new Mark Burnett production. The

32:22

Making of Milan yeah which them went into

32:25

the Making of The Marriage which that went

32:27

into the making of a baby and now.

32:30

American Citizen The first season I

32:32

states of. America as a pretty

32:34

great rollout. And I recall

32:36

those two great dynamic decades. While.

32:40

Because. You also then said in a

32:42

Bbc interview. I do believe

32:44

that it's a transactional marriage. Donald.

32:47

Got his arm candy The vote Cover:

32:49

Legitimize Milan You which then of course

32:52

legitimize Donald as well. I'm

32:54

a lunge Got to dynamic decades. Talk

32:57

to me more about the transactional

32:59

marriage rights. I mean, it's easy.

33:01

We all know that Donald Trump

33:04

fancies himself as a ladies man

33:06

and Milan use clearly a beautiful

33:08

woman. Was it really all about

33:10

the on T V/nothing off this

33:12

burnished image? Or. Was

33:15

there actually some love? that? Well. I think it

33:17

was their kind of luck and he

33:19

does. I did spend time with them

33:21

alone and Sousa's. Unlike

33:23

any other Trump insider.

33:26

Or. Family member Molony was actually able

33:28

to sell Donald whatever she was

33:30

thinking. However, she sells whatever she

33:32

thought. Oh, She. Would

33:34

say it in such a tone that.

33:37

You know her eyes would sparkles, She tilts her head

33:39

and he would listen. or whether or not he I've

33:41

seen listen to anything and did a thing she said.

33:44

He at least listen to her. It.

33:46

Was some. You know, Explain

33:50

your has to be in the

33:52

room with them to see the

33:54

way they interact. When. People's the

33:57

ask me, do you think that they're getting divorced?

33:59

I. Think. myself, are you out of your mind?

34:02

Melania's not going anywhere. Why

34:04

would she? There was a statement once

34:06

made by Melania when they asked her,

34:09

would you have married Donald if

34:11

he didn't have all this money?

34:14

And her response back, do you think he would have

34:16

married me if I didn't look this way? Right.

34:19

So I understand the transaction that you're

34:21

referring to. Look, Melania wasn't

34:23

so naive as to think their

34:25

relationship didn't serve a purpose for

34:27

each of them. But as

34:30

I come to see, as

34:32

our friendship grew closer, there

34:34

was a kind of love nonetheless,

34:36

and it really was. Call

34:39

it whatever you may. It is transactional.

34:42

She got something, he got something. Now,

34:44

a lot of people have claims, well,

34:47

everyone has a transactional marriage. Each

34:49

of you get something out of one another. This

34:51

is a whole different ballgame. Well, yeah, I

34:53

mean, my marriage, my transaction is my love

34:56

for my wife. Love. Right. I

34:59

don't have money when I first married her.

35:01

I made it while we were together. I

35:03

don't know if I would call my marriage

35:06

transactional. But here's the thing. You filled that

35:09

void for Donald with Melania. You were

35:11

the husband

35:14

at times that had to support

35:16

Melania in ways that husbands do.

35:20

You took care of a lot of things for Melania

35:22

that normally a husband would take care of. That

35:25

phone call that I make when I know I

35:27

need my husband and he is there for me

35:29

no matter what, well, I

35:32

know for a fact that those calls were made to you. Because

35:35

you and I would even sometimes run into each other

35:37

at Trump Tower inside the apartment with

35:39

Melania. And that's

35:41

what makes this even worse, I

35:44

think, than people could possibly

35:46

understand just about betrayal is

35:48

that we were so intricately

35:50

interwoven into their most

35:55

innermost beings And what they

35:57

needed on a daily basis from one another. The

36:00

pied in different ways. Yeah.

36:02

That's. One. Way

36:04

to put it. because it. look, let me

36:06

let me be very frank here. Donald Trump

36:09

is Not an attractive man. He. Right

36:11

in his old age. And I've seen him in

36:13

the locker room. I've seen him in History be

36:15

whities, right? I've seen him with his Greg Orman

36:17

hair when he's. Putting. Up to

36:19

come over and spraying. Five.

36:22

Pounds odds. Are. Cornet in

36:24

the airway give choking you need

36:26

of a gas masks because it's

36:28

that crazy. How do

36:30

you think that she ends up. Managing.

36:33

To be intimate with him

36:35

at this point, especially after.

36:38

All. Of the stories about Stormy

36:40

Daniels and Carry Me to

36:42

go about the sexual relationships

36:44

that he had unprotected sexual

36:46

relationships. Because the thing that

36:48

I do know about Milan

36:50

You is that. She's.

36:53

Very private. And.

36:55

She. holds herself, To.

36:59

A level that is certainly higher

37:01

than what. Trump. Does or.

37:03

See More like some just. Trump

37:06

is the Selman in the front lines and

37:08

Milan yet is exactly like he has in

37:10

the back lines. Do really

37:13

know that? Know. Tom

37:15

Tommy Tommy more amused or anything that

37:17

happens that you can think of that

37:19

would. Explain that because

37:21

for me again I talk

37:23

about it in my book

37:25

so often. Seen.

37:28

He i don't put on the same

37:30

played. Right and only as

37:32

reading your book. And

37:34

finding out that there are some comments that

37:37

were made about me post the raid. And.

37:39

When. I ended

37:41

up deciding. That. It was

37:43

time to speak truth to power. Did.

37:46

She take offense to that and that

37:48

actually upset me. It really hurt me

37:50

a lot because things that I had

37:52

done for her and for her family

37:54

in hers and and forbearance. I

37:57

would never have expected. That.

37:59

she would say those sort of things when

38:02

I had gone so far out of

38:04

my way to protect her. Melania

38:07

will always back up Donald no matter what.

38:09

It's the same thing that happened with me.

38:11

When the time came that I needed her

38:13

to just speak the truth, one sentence, one

38:17

sentence. What sentence are you referring to? That

38:19

Stephanie Winston Walcoff did everything

38:22

properly and worked as my

38:24

senior advisor this

38:27

entire year and that I was not fired

38:29

and that I did not receive 26

38:31

million dollars. But as

38:33

the White House counsel told her, there

38:36

was a possible PIC investigation and

38:38

she, not being a private

38:41

citizen, was unable to speak

38:43

on my behalf. Right. What really

38:45

hurt me as I was reading your

38:48

book and I started to get an

38:50

understanding more from Melania is

38:52

that it's almost as if she just doesn't care.

38:55

She doesn't care about you.

38:57

She doesn't care about me. She

38:59

doesn't care about anything and I

39:02

and I'm gonna then draw your attention.

39:04

You'll probably remember this especially being from

39:06

the vogue background that there was a

39:08

jacket that she wore that caused quite

39:10

a stir and I believe on the

39:12

back of the jacket it says I

39:15

don't care. Do you? You

39:17

remember that? Oh I remember that. Tell me.

39:19

I remember calling. Did you ever have a

39:21

conversation with her and say why the hell

39:24

were you wearing that jacket? It's such a

39:26

bad timing in light of everything that was

39:28

going on with the children being taken from

39:30

their parents thrown in cages. Listen, Melania, when

39:32

I spoke to her about it, I actually said Melania

39:34

would have jumped on you and

39:37

she said to me, you wouldn't have jumped on me. You

39:40

wouldn't have seen me and Melania's take

39:42

on the fact that she has said

39:44

it directly to me. I do what

39:46

I want. Nobody controls me. It doesn't

39:49

matter what anybody else thinks and she

39:51

means it. You know

39:53

she certainly meant it when she decided that

39:55

she was going to allow Barron to finish

39:57

out the school year and she was going

39:59

to to basically take a

40:01

hiatus as the first lady

40:04

until the school year ended. I actually

40:06

gave her an enormous amount of credit, as

40:08

did other members of the board of

40:11

trustees for the school. Most

40:13

people would pack up. They would

40:15

send their stuff straight to Washington. We

40:18

helped to figure out. I helped to figure out. Actually,

40:21

I didn't help. I did it. I

40:23

found the school for Barron with her. We

40:25

went. We liked it. It's

40:27

a gorgeous school. Great people,

40:29

great teachers. We knew he would be

40:31

happy there. I would have picked

40:33

myself up if I was the

40:36

first lady and I would have gone with

40:38

my husband. But she stood on principle. Look,

40:44

I think that as far

40:46

as Melania suffering great anguish

40:48

and being misunderstood by the public and

40:52

staying in New York because she wanted

40:54

Barron to finish out the school year. Again,

40:57

I think that there's

41:00

a lot that people just don't

41:02

understand about Melania Trump. That

41:05

is, she does not care what

41:07

you think or feel. She

41:11

has said to me many times, she knows what

41:13

the truth is and it doesn't need to be

41:15

explained. Some things don't need

41:17

to be dignified with an answer. Those

41:20

are her exact words to me when she

41:22

and I spoke about the Access Hollywood tape. Okay,

41:26

well, then how about when

41:28

Melania was presented with the evidence on

41:31

Trump's infidelity? According

41:33

to your book, she'd often reply to you that

41:35

she knew what she married. What

41:37

does that mean to you? Because I'm not

41:40

really sure that most

41:42

wives would be that forgiving, especially

41:45

under the circumstances and especially the

41:47

fact that it's probably the most

41:50

public and it's the

41:52

wackiest of everything. The president and

41:54

a porn star, The President

41:56

and a Playboy playmate. The

42:00

things that just. Go.

42:02

Away This the press had a field

42:04

day on it. What? Does it

42:06

mean to you? And would save you

42:08

have anything. Well she told me that Donald

42:11

had to be prepared for his whole life to be

42:13

opened. To. The media to

42:15

the world and. And

42:17

if he won And. In that

42:19

moment I thought to myself and so do

42:21

you. And. I was concerned about

42:23

Baron and I was concerned about Milan. You.

42:26

But. As she always says, do not worry

42:28

about me. I know exactly who I.

42:30

Know if she said she would say the

42:33

same thing to me a lot which is

42:35

don't worry about I'm not, I'm not a

42:37

wallflower are not easily to have a much

42:39

easily broken ever. And look, Millennia

42:41

has her rules. She keeps her

42:44

self mysterious and an enigma for

42:46

very very important reason which is

42:48

to keep everyone away and for

42:51

everyone to believe what. They.

42:53

Want to believe because they look

42:56

at home and they see this

42:58

beautiful. Farming empathetic, kind

43:01

mother. How. Could she

43:03

possibly be married to him? Right on

43:05

to say that she's not. Well I'm trying

43:07

to say that. In Milan his

43:09

own words. No. Audio: No

43:11

interviews, no questions. She.

43:14

Only does what she wants to do in order

43:16

for the world to know who she is. Because

43:19

I was often on the other side

43:21

of much of this, you're having to

43:23

be the one who covered up on

43:26

to Milan. you donald transgressions. How

43:29

much do you think? She teared? Would you

43:31

think to choose Even hurt by the allegations

43:34

of Stormy Daniels of Town Mcdougall Look down

43:36

World View. Is driven by narcissism. You can be

43:38

married to someone like that if you're not a

43:40

narcissist. Herself: Forty single. The first you think

43:42

makes you think Milan, you will leave

43:44

Donald, You think I'll believe Milan you

43:47

if Trump loses the election. He

43:49

thinks she goes by by. Giving. Sustained

43:51

by him to these other choice. Of.

43:54

Course she does. We'll see how hard of. The transactional

43:56

marriage. short but the transaction also

43:58

included a pay The

44:01

same way he handled it with both

44:03

Ivana as well as Marla. And

44:05

I would have to say that there

44:08

was a time that things looked a little bit iffy

44:11

in their marriage. You

44:13

may recall where she wouldn't hold his hand.

44:15

She then claimed it's not true, that she

44:17

was trying to get her own balance, blah,

44:19

blah, blah, blah.

44:22

It's very possible that they then

44:24

sat, they brought the lawyers in,

44:26

and they redid the agreement.

44:31

I think that she may have potentially, and

44:33

this I'm only speaking from opinion,

44:35

I don't know it to be fact,

44:37

but I think knowing Melania being calculating

44:40

which she is, that she

44:42

may have upped the ante at that point.

44:44

Look, I think that it's going to play out,

44:47

however it's going to play out, but I do

44:49

believe that, I

44:53

do believe that they are one and the

44:56

same. And I don't think that there's anyone

44:58

else out there that could live with either

45:00

one of them knowing what

45:02

their character is made of, what

45:05

their stances are on

45:08

our world views today because it is

45:10

scary out there. And the fact that

45:13

they can say the things

45:15

they say and do the things they do,

45:17

Michael, to me, we have children that we

45:19

have are leaving here. We

45:21

have children, I mean, again, one of

45:24

the reasons why I went into the White House, one

45:26

of the reasons why I went to help Melania and

45:28

set her up was because having proximity to her, I

45:31

thought I could make a difference. The reality is you

45:34

realize no matter how close you are, and no matter

45:36

if you're on the inside or the outside, you can't

45:38

make a difference at all because it is the Trump

45:40

way or no way. Well, I do

45:42

also remember that at that time,

45:45

as I was referring, when Melania

45:47

decided she was going to stay back in

45:49

New York and wait out the time until

45:51

the school season was over, that

45:53

Ivanka decided to take an active

45:56

role. And I do

45:58

specifically remember being upset. and

46:00

talking to her about it and

46:02

she left and she had this

46:04

great charming laugh about her. There's

46:08

no way that Ivanka is going

46:10

to be anything in this White

46:12

House above and better than me.

46:15

And I remember it like it was yesterday

46:17

because I really care about Melania.

46:20

So did I. Right. I really did.

46:22

And that's why again reading your book,

46:25

Melania and me, it really tore into me.

46:28

I didn't expect that it was going to do

46:30

that to me because I

46:32

had a very different, and

46:34

I do have a different impression

46:36

of her clearly than you do.

46:38

But your book sort of brings

46:40

in so much to

46:42

explain to me about certain

46:45

things that she did and

46:47

why she was doing it. And

46:50

for that, great book. Thank

46:52

you. Look, Melania is as

46:54

strong as Teflon, as Donald

46:56

is. She lets things slide off of her.

46:59

Donald pretends to be bulletproof.

47:02

He is not. And when he tells

47:04

you, oh, I have the thickest skin

47:06

in the world, nobody else could go

47:08

through what I'm going through and still

47:10

get up every day and stand and

47:12

do all the great things I'm doing

47:14

for America. And so it's bullshit. It

47:16

is pure and utter bullshit. Everything

47:19

bothers him. He is the biggest

47:21

whiny baby that you've ever seen.

47:23

The reason that he started going

47:25

with the whole birtherism is because

47:27

he started to see his name

47:29

every single day in the headlines.

47:31

He's like, Michael, this is great.

47:33

This is great. You know, no, no,

47:35

no, it's really not great, boss. You're

47:37

talking about the president of the United

47:39

States not being a U.S. citizen. Could

47:41

you imagine unwinding all of the things

47:43

that have been done so far to

47:45

date because it would be unconstitutional for

47:47

him to go on? I

47:49

mean, it's a really, really tough assertion

47:52

that you're making. Right. So he turned

47:54

around and he said, fuck him. I

47:56

don't care. Right. And then

47:58

after, of course, the... the Washington

48:01

correspondence dinner, that really

48:03

got to him. And you could see it

48:05

in his face. I mean, he almost looked

48:07

as if he looked like he wanted to

48:09

cry. So I don't see Donald and Melania.

48:11

I've seen Melania cry. I've seen

48:13

her cry three times. But I

48:15

understand why she was crying. And

48:18

it had nothing to do with Stormy

48:20

Daniels or Karen McDougall. It

48:22

didn't have to do with anything external.

48:24

It had to do with something that

48:27

is obviously very important to

48:29

her. Family

48:31

is most important to Melania. And I do believe

48:33

that. And that's the truth. But

48:37

as far as being as

48:39

strong as Teflon Don, when I say that,

48:42

Michael, I want to reiterate the importance of

48:44

understanding that she will

48:46

turn around and feel exactly the same

48:48

way as she does to public and

48:51

in private. And like Donald, you just

48:53

explained does the complete opposite. He

48:55

falls apart when no one's looking. She

48:59

really does have this

49:02

unbreakable aesthetic

49:04

that is truly part of her

49:06

moral compass as well. And

49:09

it is not something that

49:11

I fully understood

49:13

before spending time with

49:16

her in this world, this, you

49:18

know, in the belly of the beast. Would

49:20

you say that that's a positive or a negative? I

49:22

think it's a negative. I think that the most important

49:26

characteristic that we don't have is

49:29

honesty from this president and

49:31

his family. And so being

49:33

able to say one thing

49:36

and do another is the most tragic

49:38

thing for our country right now. And

49:41

she is as complicit as he is. And

49:44

look, the Trumps never expressed shock.

49:47

They never admit weakness. And

49:49

they never admit being wrong. So it

49:51

takes, you know, that would take responsibility

49:53

for their actions and they won't. So

49:56

that to me plays into that what

49:58

you've just said. because your

50:01

relationship with Melania went

50:03

very south, just as mine did

50:05

with Donald. And at the

50:07

heart of your book, there's an

50:09

assertion that your firing was really

50:11

a smokescreen to hide the misdeeds

50:13

of others, specifically Rick Gates,

50:15

Tom Barrack, and a host of other people. In

50:18

my specific case, the

50:20

smokescreen was the Allen Weisselbergs of

50:23

the world, the Donald Trumps,

50:26

the Stormy Daniels, the Karen McDougal,

50:28

the David Peckers, and everybody who

50:30

ended up getting limited

50:33

immunity while I ended up basically

50:35

being held responsible because what did

50:37

I do? I paid

50:40

a porn star to pull the

50:42

President's pecker? I mean, the whole thing is just so

50:44

stupid. Tell me about that. Look, a

50:46

false misleading headline ruined my life in a

50:48

matter of seconds. The White House created

50:50

a narrative because I wouldn't follow along with the

50:52

one they wanted me to. I

50:54

was put in a really tough position. I think it's important for

50:56

people to know that while I was

50:58

working for Melania in the White House, I had

51:01

already hired a

51:03

legal defense team in

51:05

January. Tell

51:07

me about the narrative. What was the narrative that they

51:09

wanted you to stand? Because obviously we all know the

51:12

narrative for me. No Russia, no

51:14

Russia, no collusion. Donald

51:16

had very little to do with Russia to

51:18

the extent that they got me to

51:21

change my statement to Congress,

51:24

in essence lying something to which I

51:26

was and I pled guilty to because

51:29

I was guilty of lying to Congress. Well,

51:31

same in the sense ... Well, the

51:34

narrative is first and foremost that

51:36

Donald and Melania had nothing and knew

51:39

nothing about the Presidential Inauguration Committee. The

51:42

finances, zero zilch. Nothing

51:45

took place without Donald's approval. Nothing

51:47

happened without Melania knowing. For

51:50

me, the narrative was that this was the

51:52

greatest peaceful transition

51:54

of power and the most

51:56

incredible supportive group of Americans

51:58

coming together to put on

52:01

the most impressive inauguration that

52:04

there was no one around to broadcast it.

52:06

You and I actually worked in some respect

52:08

together during the inauguration. I

52:10

was basically fundraising for Trump,

52:12

and I raised several millions

52:15

of dollars for him for

52:17

the inauguration. It's my

52:19

understanding that $107 million was ultimately raised by

52:21

the committee. Now

52:25

I was not on any specific

52:27

committee. I refused to take a

52:30

campaign position. I refused to be part of the

52:32

transition team. I didn't want to be part of

52:34

the inaugural committee because I knew that nothing good

52:36

was going to come out of it. Lo and

52:38

behold, who's the one that fucking goes to prison?

52:40

Me, right? But I know that it was $107

52:42

million that was raised. Well,

52:45

the committee said they raised $107 million, right? So

52:50

the money had to go somewhere. Well, was it more than $107, or was it $107? Look,

52:54

it's self-evident that a war chest of money

52:56

was accumulated in order to put together a

52:59

lot of events for what other

53:01

reasons it was accumulated for. Maybe Rick Gates has the

53:03

answers to that. Stephanie, I want to

53:05

go back to the whole thing regarding Ivanka because

53:08

I'm well aware that there's

53:10

no love between Ivanka

53:13

and Melania. And I think a lot of

53:15

it has to do with Ivanka's desperate

53:18

need for daddy's attention and

53:22

wanting to play the role

53:25

of first lady because you

53:27

described in detail Melania's plans

53:30

and with your help to stop Ivanka,

53:32

in essence, from being what you term

53:35

as a shadow first lady. What

53:38

was Operation Block Ivanka? Well, before

53:40

I explain that, Mike, I do want to

53:42

say that in the beginning, Melania truly

53:45

wanted to possess

53:48

the ability to have a

53:50

team, a Lincolnian group of women,

53:52

bipartisan group of women, that actually could

53:54

affect change and could create an initiative

53:56

and platform that would make a difference.

53:58

That was something that was really important. that, again,

54:00

I would have never followed her to

54:02

DC or gone before her to DC

54:04

had that not been the case. She

54:07

had no support, zero.

54:10

Zero. Zero. I know this to be true. Except

54:14

one person, me. And

54:17

I have to say, it's that

54:19

loyalty that brought me down because

54:21

of my honesty and my integrity

54:23

in a group of people that

54:25

it means nothing to. And

54:28

we've been able to actually create

54:30

this initiative, social, emotional learning for

54:32

Melania, to actually have a platform

54:34

to speak about and ring

54:37

true to the so many millions

54:40

of children that need

54:43

a better toolset to be able

54:45

to understand, empathize, and respect and

54:47

express themselves. We have a

54:49

different world today. You also described

54:51

throughout the book Melania as

54:53

being truly cold and uncaring.

54:55

And again, very different than

54:57

the perception that I saw

54:59

Melania as. And at

55:01

the height of the family separation crisis of

55:03

the border, Melania

55:06

visited a detention center and

55:09

she had this to say. They're

55:12

not with their parents and it's sad. But

55:15

the patrols told me the kids say,

55:17

wow, I get a bed. I

55:19

will have a cabinet for my clothes. It's

55:22

more than they have in their own country where

55:24

they sleep on the floor. Is

55:27

that something that she said to you? It

55:29

is. It's what she was

55:31

told. And again, it's almost cultist

55:34

that Donald's own wife either actually

55:36

believes what she's hearing or she's

55:38

programmed to believe what she's being

55:40

told. Who was it that said that to

55:42

her? Because that is the stupidest thing I've

55:44

ever fucking heard in my life. That oh,

55:46

great, we're not sleeping on a floor. How

55:49

would anybody know where these children are from?

55:51

And I know that there's this there

55:54

are stories about her coming up and

55:56

saying that there are coyotes and that

55:59

they're taking children. and they're smuggling

56:01

these children into the country and that

56:03

they're selling them into slavery into sex

56:05

trades and so on Where did she

56:08

get this information from? Who's the fucking

56:10

asshole that actually would tell the first

56:12

lady these type of stories and what

56:14

the hell is going on in her

56:16

head? That she's listening to it and

56:19

then repeating it to even her best

56:21

friend look in

56:23

her own words Melania says

56:25

I'll handle the consequences or

56:27

no consequences. I don't care And

56:30

I know exactly what I want to do or what

56:32

I want to wear or what I want to say She

56:35

is her own person Michael

56:37

if that is how she envisions

56:40

and believes that these children are

56:42

being treated Those are

56:44

that's again. I I

56:46

could tell you something Michael. You don't go and repeat if

56:48

you don't believe it, right? It's

56:50

not about who told her It

56:52

doesn't matter if it came from a patrol officer or if it

56:54

came from Donald or if it came from Jared or whomever it

56:56

came from The First Lady

56:59

of the United States is Visiting

57:01

and seeing these children with her own eyes

57:04

Hearing with her own ears the yells

57:06

and the screams and the crying. I mean

57:09

I saw visions on television

57:11

of children in

57:13

diapers walking around With

57:16

the diapers almost touching the floor because they

57:18

didn't have diapers. They give them a mylar

57:21

Blanket they give them a bottle of water

57:24

They turn around they tell them go find

57:26

a place to sleep on the floor and

57:28

then this is something that's supposed to be

57:30

acceptable Especially somebody who's an immigrant themselves who

57:32

had told me on so many occasions About

57:35

when she first came you know into the

57:37

modeling business how that she was one of

57:39

these poor girls that came from Slovenia

57:42

and that she was living in France and

57:44

that they lived in these terrible conditions And

57:46

then when she came to the United States

57:48

she again lived in terrible squalor then That

57:51

squalor has to be like

57:54

five-star Trump Resort living

57:56

compared to what they were doing

57:58

to these children Explain to

58:00

me why Melania never wanted to talk about immigration

58:02

herself. I don't know. You tell me. Did

58:05

she ever discuss it with you? Well, I really felt

58:07

strongly during the planning of the inauguration that

58:10

Melania... I felt that

58:12

Melania should represent the United States

58:14

by wearing American designers. She didn't

58:16

think that that was important whatsoever.

58:18

But Melania's mantra is, I don't

58:21

care. And it

58:23

holds true to the belief that

58:26

she is here in the United States now.

58:28

She is an American citizen. She does not

58:30

care whether or not your parents, if they

58:32

were immigrants, were allowed into the United States

58:34

or not. Hers are. And so... Right.

58:37

I was involved in that year with it. Yes. And

58:39

so the reality, Michael, is that, again, it's so... It

58:42

took me a long time to write this book because

58:44

it took me a long time to take a step

58:46

back to actually understand

58:49

who Melania was because I did not feel that

58:52

way while I was with her. This

58:54

is very complicated. As it

58:56

was for me in writing my book and

58:59

referring and reflecting back upon all of the

59:01

Donald J. Trump stories, I do want to

59:03

ask you something as we'll close them. So

59:07

I cared very much for Melania

59:09

as a person, and I had

59:12

spent an enormous amount of time

59:14

with her helping her do

59:17

certain things that she needed personally.

59:22

And I was always curious about

59:25

the raid when they raided my home,

59:27

the hotel, my law office, first time

59:29

ever in history that they raided, the

59:31

personal attorney of the president's law office,

59:34

breaking all attorney-client privilege. Did

59:38

Melania ever say anything about

59:40

that to you in regard to me?

59:43

She said it was too bad. That's it.

59:46

And she wasn't involved and doesn't know anything about it. And

59:49

she just doesn't care. I don't care. I

59:51

don't care. Thank

59:54

you, Stephanie. You certainly opened

59:56

up my eyes with Melania and me,

59:59

and I would certainly recommend, the same

1:00:01

way I recommend disloyal. If anybody

1:00:03

wants to understand the true

1:00:06

psyche of Donald J. Trump,

1:00:08

you got to read disloyal.

1:00:10

If you want to understand

1:00:12

the true psyche of Melania,

1:00:14

our first lady, and

1:00:16

then put the two books together

1:00:18

so they become technically bookends, now

1:00:21

you'll understand who's occupying

1:00:24

the people's house. Let

1:00:27

me tell you, Michael, after reading your book, and

1:00:29

I think I told you this, I was

1:00:31

so shocked because I didn't know

1:00:33

Donald at all. I

1:00:35

mean, I would see him in passing, we'd have dinner,

1:00:37

and I'd just listen to him talk about himself. So

1:00:40

to hear and to understand

1:00:43

what you went through with Donald and

1:00:45

understanding that loyalty to him and that

1:00:49

unconditional, unconditional

1:00:51

loyalty, is

1:00:53

only something I think that people can understand if they

1:00:55

walk in your shoes. And I know

1:00:58

I've walked in your shoes when it comes to Melania. And

1:01:01

at the end of the day, you

1:01:04

have to be honest and look in the

1:01:06

mirror and know who you are, which you

1:01:08

have done respectfully, come

1:01:11

to terms with who

1:01:13

you are and what you did. And I've

1:01:16

come to terms with the fact that I didn't know anything

1:01:18

about policy, and I got involved with a group of people

1:01:20

that I knew nothing about. And it was very naive of

1:01:22

me to believe I could make a difference. But I think

1:01:24

that the most

1:01:26

important thing for everyone to remember reading

1:01:29

this loyal Melania and me

1:01:31

is that these are the

1:01:33

people that are telling you they care

1:01:36

so much about you. And you

1:01:38

now have two people that have just spoken to

1:01:41

you and told you, based

1:01:43

on fact, based on substance

1:01:46

evidence, based on more than a

1:01:48

decade of relationships with each and

1:01:50

every one of the individuals. So

1:01:52

please don't make the same mistake we did. And I

1:01:54

mean that, Michael, I do not want people to make

1:01:56

the same mistake we did. And that's how I end my book

1:01:59

as well. Now you have have all the information

1:02:01

that you need to make

1:02:03

a determination for November who

1:02:06

you want to win the election in 2020.

1:02:08

Well, thank you again, Stephanie. This has been

1:02:10

great. Truly appreciate your time. Thank

1:02:12

you so much, Michael. And

1:02:16

now for today's tweets. This

1:02:18

one comes from General Mark Hertling

1:02:20

as a direct message. He

1:02:23

writes, Mr. Cohen, I hope

1:02:25

you don't mind this direct message or the

1:02:27

presumption of this note, but I

1:02:29

wanted to thank you for writing your book. I

1:02:32

normally don't read tell-alls, but I wanted

1:02:34

to read yours after seeing you on

1:02:36

Mad Out, but also because, after years

1:02:39

of service to our country, I'm

1:02:41

still baffled how anyone can support a

1:02:43

character like Trump. I thought

1:02:46

your book might give me better insight. It

1:02:48

did, but I'm still having trouble wrapping

1:02:51

my head around how others are so

1:02:53

blind to the fact that Trump is

1:02:55

such an antithesis to who we aspire

1:02:57

to be as a people and nation.

1:03:00

General Hertling, thank you for

1:03:02

your direct message and for your service to

1:03:04

this country. There's really no words

1:03:07

that I can say I agree with your

1:03:09

message in its entirety. Donald

1:03:11

Trump is the antithesis of

1:03:13

everything that we should want

1:03:15

to aspire for in this

1:03:17

country. And God willing, if

1:03:19

the result of the election comes out

1:03:21

the way that I would like to

1:03:24

see it, there's a possibility that we're

1:03:26

going to be able to return to

1:03:28

normalcy. So thank you

1:03:30

again. And since

1:03:32

we're talking about heroes, I'd like to

1:03:34

also thank all of our first responders.

1:03:36

You too are heroes. Not

1:03:39

only are you heroes, without your help,

1:03:42

the death toll would be substantially greater.

1:03:44

And that's of course no thanks to

1:03:46

the mishandling of the COVID pandemic by

1:03:48

our president. Not

1:03:51

only are these first

1:03:53

responders dealing with issues

1:03:55

like COVID-19, but this

1:03:57

week has brought a problem to me and to my

1:03:59

face. family. My

1:04:01

85-year-old father, unfortunately, was

1:04:04

stricken with a cardiac

1:04:06

issue and required an ablation

1:04:09

as well as a cardiac pacemaker.

1:04:11

I want to thank the doctors

1:04:13

and the entire medical staff for

1:04:15

everything they did in order to

1:04:17

ensure my father's health. It's

1:04:20

not easy going through what we're

1:04:23

all going through in this country

1:04:25

with Trump Derangement Syndrome. And

1:04:28

you have coupled with that the health of your

1:04:30

loved one. So again, I

1:04:33

want to thank the entire medical

1:04:35

staff, the doctors, the nurses, the

1:04:37

first responders, the technicians. I

1:04:39

want to thank everybody at the

1:04:41

JFK Medical Center in Atlantis, Florida.

1:04:44

They've did a wonderful job on

1:04:46

my father and they've brought some

1:04:49

happiness to me and my family

1:04:51

during a moment of time that,

1:04:54

let's just say, is less than happy. So

1:04:56

thank you. So

1:04:58

again, I want to thank the medical

1:05:00

center, the JFK Medical Center in Atlantis,

1:05:03

Florida, the doctors, the nurses, the technicians,

1:05:05

the first responders. And I

1:05:07

just want to say, God bless you and

1:05:09

stay safe. And

1:05:17

now, today's mea culpa. I'm

1:05:19

curious to learn how history will judge Melania

1:05:22

in the coming years and decades. But

1:05:25

the legacy of Donald J. Trump is the

1:05:27

story of a nation that became unhinged in

1:05:29

the manner of its paranoid and despotic leader.

1:05:32

Where to serve Donald Trump meant to betray the

1:05:34

very core of your being? And

1:05:37

to stand by him was to stand

1:05:39

complicit to a host of high crimes

1:05:41

and misdemeanors. Where does

1:05:43

that leave Melania Trump? And it was for

1:05:45

the people and for the left wing

1:05:48

media who are criticizing me

1:05:50

and want to show them that I don't

1:05:52

care. You could criticize whatever you want

1:05:55

to say, but it will not stop me to

1:05:57

do what I feel is right. In

1:05:59

one scenario, there could be a

1:06:01

future, perhaps quite soon, where

1:06:03

she no longer poses any use to

1:06:05

Donald Trump as a proper accessory and

1:06:08

she's cast off. Or

1:06:10

in another scenario, it's Trump who was

1:06:12

cast off upon being sent to prison.

1:06:15

Perhaps then she will reveal the truth or cry

1:06:17

out that she too was a victim. But

1:06:20

that seems highly unlikely. Melania

1:06:22

is fond of reminding people that she knew

1:06:24

who Trump was when she married him. And

1:06:27

if you're married to Donald J. Trump, then

1:06:30

you're living in a near constant state of

1:06:32

humiliation. If not for his

1:06:34

misdeeds and surreal philandering, then

1:06:36

for his extreme narcissism and sociopathy.

1:06:40

What kind of person is willing to share his bed at

1:06:42

night? What is it like to go to bed with

1:06:44

evil? It's not always pleasant. What

1:06:47

do they talk about together? Do

1:06:49

they watch The Bachelor? I

1:06:51

simply cannot fathom what it's like to share

1:06:53

a life with someone who cares for no

1:06:56

one or anything but himself. Sure,

1:06:59

Melania gets the spoils. She

1:07:01

has the power and a platform. And

1:07:03

for some that's enough. But

1:07:05

how does she steal herself at night

1:07:07

for his intimacy? Often

1:07:10

those with the ugliest hearts are

1:07:12

superficially beautiful and that's enough to

1:07:14

pretend. But Trump at

1:07:16

this point has rotted both inside and out.

1:07:19

He's more like some orange dusted creature,

1:07:21

a walking cartoon character with a urine-dipped

1:07:23

comb-over. You're a beautiful man, you have

1:07:26

fantastic hair. His macho swagger and bearing

1:07:28

may have made him at one point

1:07:30

a lothario in his own mind, the

1:07:33

pussy-grabbing prince of primetime. But those days

1:07:35

are long gone. Now come

1:07:37

the deeply troubled women. You're deeply,

1:07:39

deeply troubled, right? They're always the best of

1:07:41

bets. I've seen the man in his jockey

1:07:43

shorts and it's not pretty. Now

1:07:46

it's just sad and gross. He's

1:07:48

old and creepy. He's the

1:07:50

guy who openly fantasizes about dating his own

1:07:52

daughter. I said that if Ivanka weren't my

1:07:54

daughter perhaps I'd be dating her. By

1:07:57

the way, you're a daughter. She's

1:07:59

beautiful. Can I say this? A

1:08:01

piece of ass. She looks more voluptuous than

1:08:03

ever. She has actually always been very voluptuous.

1:08:06

And this is the man Malanya chooses to stand

1:08:08

by. The man she says she

1:08:10

already knows. I would feel

1:08:13

bad for her if she didn't so completely

1:08:15

relish her role as Malanya Trump. But

1:08:18

that's what's so horrific in all of this. All

1:08:20

that's in front of her. The moral

1:08:23

rot, the racism, the lies and corruption.

1:08:26

Malanya keeps learning more. And

1:08:28

ultimately, that's what's so revealing in all

1:08:30

of this. How fair you sit. How

1:08:33

willing you become to debase yourself. Hello? Hey.

1:08:37

Hi, how are you? You are so hot. Oh, thank

1:08:39

you. I see pictures of you.

1:08:41

I can't believe it. You're a dream. Oh.

1:08:44

You are so hot. Are you coming

1:08:46

back, you

1:08:55

guys? Let me tell you something. It

1:08:57

would be almost comical if it weren't

1:08:59

so gross and compromised. Again, I

1:09:02

know all of this because I used to wait in

1:09:04

his filthy pool. I was his

1:09:06

alligator in the sewer, of

1:09:09

my myriad of daily trespasses against the

1:09:11

truth. The one that I am

1:09:13

most ashamed of is how I lied for him to

1:09:15

Malanya. Upon catching and

1:09:17

killing the latest sex scandal and

1:09:19

obtaining an affidavit from an intimidated

1:09:21

porn star or glamour model, I

1:09:24

had to trudge upstairs and look upon Malanya with a

1:09:26

straight face and tell her none of it was true.

1:09:29

He asked me to pay off an adult

1:09:31

film star with a movie she had in

1:09:33

his hair and to lie about

1:09:35

it to his wife. It

1:09:38

was the fiction in which we were both complicit.

1:09:41

I would lie to her and she would accept my lies,

1:09:43

betraying nothing. And I have

1:09:45

to live with that. But all

1:09:47

of us possess agency. The ability to

1:09:50

say enough is enough and ultimately to

1:09:52

say no. I didn't do

1:09:54

anything to stop what was happening. So I should be judged accordingly.

1:09:57

My hope is that I can make up for this. that

1:10:00

now with my actions today and

1:10:02

be forgiven by history tomorrow. But

1:10:05

Malanga is trapped in the nightmare of her own

1:10:07

making and one that I helped to build. May

1:10:10

God have mercy on my soul. Amen.

1:10:13

May it be with you. My

1:10:17

occult was brought to you by LSU media and

1:10:19

audio up in association with

1:10:21

my district and it's hosted

1:10:23

by me, Michael Cohen, produced by

1:10:25

audio up by Jimmy Jolie and

1:10:28

executive producer Jared Gustave. And

1:10:30

it's edited by Tyler Zossa. Please

1:10:32

register to vote. I'll do

1:10:34

my part on this podcast, but to

1:10:36

truly make a difference, you must vote

1:10:38

this man out of office. So

1:10:41

if you're not registered, go do it now. Come

1:10:44

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1:10:46

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