0:00

You won't need to hear

0:03

some doctor pontificating it or

0:06

someone demonizing what you're doing or not doing

0:08

as being the wrong thing in these tribal wars

0:10

within wellness. It will be meaningless. It'll

0:12

be secondary because you'll know for yourself, I

0:15

know what works for me.

0:16

Hello, hello. This is episode 447.

0:21

I'm so glad to see you here today.

0:23

We're gonna be talking about metabolic flexibility,

0:26

how fasting works in all of this.

0:29

And with the ketogenic diet, if you choose

0:31

to go as far as combining

0:34

fasting with keto, we're gonna be

0:36

talking a little bit about hormone imbalances

0:39

and intuitive eating, eating disorders,

0:42

shame, stress around eating, how

0:44

to incorporate the intermittent fasting

0:48

between long-term fasting and

0:50

really how to structure intuition

0:53

into fasting. I

0:55

know that the idea of

0:57

having no rules around fasting

1:00

can really be overwhelming, but I

1:02

would like to prove to you today that

1:05

it doesn't have to be as regimented

1:07

as what I see ongoing. When

1:10

I onboard clients to my one-on-one

1:12

practice, I ask a lot

1:14

of questions in my intake form

1:16

about fasting because I really wanna know

1:19

how these individuals are incorporating it.

1:21

And the main things that I see in

1:24

these women is that they're fasting

1:26

too much, oftentimes

1:29

way too much, like every day,

1:31

at least 18 hours ongoing.

1:35

And so today's episode is really

1:37

focused on how do we maintain

1:40

intuition through this to listen to our

1:42

body? There are various times

1:44

within even our cycle as women

1:47

where fasting, maybe

1:49

not the best idea to do.

1:52

So this includes days 11

1:54

to 14, where

1:56

I wouldn't generally recommend doing

1:58

hardcore fasting.

1:59

then again days 18 to 28

2:03

or the last day of bleed where

2:05

I wouldn't recommend a ton of lots

2:07

of fasting. Okay so if you want to learn

2:10

more about how to pair your

2:13

ketogenic diet with hormones

2:16

and carbohydrates and

2:18

fasting I put together a program

2:20

for that it's called six week keto

2:22

weight loss where I take you through six

2:25

key modules in order to maintain

2:28

weight loss like effective weight

2:30

loss solutions on your ketogenic

2:33

diet while also thinking

2:35

and keeping in mind your hormones so you

2:37

can find more by going to healthful

2:39

pursuit.com slash six

2:42

week that's the number six and

2:44

then week so we're gonna also be talking

2:47

about hunger and habits and

2:49

how they play a role in

2:51

figuring out when we should fast and

2:53

when we should feed. So

2:56

our guest today is Dr. Will Cole who's a leading

2:58

functional medicine expert who consults people

3:00

around the world via webcam having

3:02

started one of the first functional medicine telehealth

3:05

centers in the world. Named one of the top 50

3:08

functional and integrative doctors in the nation

3:10

Cole specializes in clinically investigating

3:13

underlying factors of chronic disease and

3:15

customizing a functional medicine approach for

3:17

thyroid issues, autoimmune conditions,

3:20

hormone imbalances, digestive disorders,

3:22

and brain problems. He is also the host

3:24

of the popular the art of being well

3:26

podcast and best-selling author

3:29

of Ketotarian gut feelings

3:31

the inflammation spectrum and the

3:33

New York Times bestseller intuitive

3:36

fasting. Let's get into today's

3:38

episode.

3:41

Hey my name is Leanne Vogel I'm

3:44

fascinated with helping women navigate how

3:46

to eat move and care for their bodies

3:48

using a low-carb diet. I'm a small town

3:51

holistic nutritionist turned three-time

3:53

international best-selling author turned

3:55

functional medicine practitioner offering

3:57

telemedicine services around the globe.

4:00

women looking to better their health and stop

4:02

second guessing themselves. I'm here to

4:04

teach you how to wade through the wellness noise

4:06

to get to the good stuff that will help you achieve

4:09

your goals. We're supporting your low-carb

4:11

life beyond the if it fits your macros

4:13

conversation. Hormones, emotions,

4:16

relationship to your body, workouts, let

4:18

downs, motivation, blood work, detoxing,

4:21

metabolism. I'm providing the tools

4:24

to put your motivation into action. Think

4:26

of it like quality time with your bestie

4:28

mixed with a little med school so you're

4:30

empowered at your next doctor visit. Get

4:33

ready to be challenged and encouraged while

4:35

you learn about your body and how to care

4:37

for it better. This is the Keto Diet

4:39

Podcast. Hello, Will.

4:49

Thanks so much for coming

4:52

on the show. Thank you so

4:54

much for having me back. I was

4:56

talking about we do case review meetings

4:58

in the morning. We have a functional

5:01

medicine telehealth center so we consult people online.

5:04

We go over case reviews and us talking

5:07

today was on the schedule of course in between

5:09

patients. I said, Leanne

5:11

and her husband drove all the way down the

5:14

Florida coast to see me

5:16

speak at Miami once.

5:19

I still think of that until

5:22

today, how thoughtful that was and meaningful.

5:25

It meant so much to me. We had dinner. It

5:27

was a fun night. Thanks for coming all those

5:29

years ago whenever that was. Right.

5:31

When was that even? That had

5:33

to have been like two years ago and it feels like

5:35

this yesterday.

5:36

It was so great. I really love

5:39

taking the time to meet other people

5:41

in the space because we're such a rare

5:43

breed and when there's an opportunity

5:46

to connect in person, it's just, I

5:48

don't know, it creates that bond that you

5:50

just don't get chatting

5:51

like this. Yeah, very wise.

5:54

That's very true. It's

5:57

been two years I guess at this point.

6:00

Yeah, anyway, thank you.

6:01

Yeah, of course, anytime and I would

6:04

happily

6:04

do it again. Next time you're

6:06

at least a 10-hour drive or so

6:08

away, I would probably make that

6:11

happen.

6:12

Alright, I'll take you out. I

6:14

will make you, I'll remind you

6:16

of that down the line, you can all travel again

6:18

and do that kind of stuff. Right, exactly.

6:20

And that meal was so good. I

6:22

still dream of that meal. So it was good

6:25

all around. Yeah, plant

6:28

Miami, very good food.

6:29

Oh, right. Yeah, when we could

6:31

like hug each other and like

6:33

being big spaces with humans.

6:35

Yeah, same thing. So awesome. Yeah,

6:37

same thing. And the before. Exactly. And

6:40

okay, so the last two years have

6:42

been a whirlwind for you. When

6:44

we first saw each other, you had one book. Now

6:47

you have three.

6:48

Yeah. Congratulations. Thank

6:50

you. I mean, obviously, my

6:53

day job, my focus on my patients. So when

6:55

you talk about these things 10 hours a day

6:57

for the past 12 years, the books are like

6:59

a natural outpouring of that

7:01

and seeing how to use these amazing

7:04

tools within wellness, specifically

7:06

functional medicine of how to

7:09

really improve someone's life. So yeah,

7:11

it's been it's been definitely a whirlwind.

7:13

But I write these at like, typically long weekends

7:16

and 2020 over the course of 2020, it

7:19

was a well wasn't traveling so much.

7:22

So it was an opportunity for me

7:24

to focus on writing and I normally would

7:26

write on plane. So Keto, Terry and and

7:28

the inflammation spectrum, I wrote a lot of it on plane

7:31

and in hotels. So on

7:33

weekends, but for this book, it was like

7:35

I wrote it at home predominantly into

7:38

the fasting because I wasn't traveling over 2020. Yeah.

7:42

And so to go from keto

7:43

to inflammation to fasting,

7:45

what was that progression like? And

7:48

why why fasting? Why these three books in

7:50

this order? Maybe it was just by chance.

7:51

Was it planned? Was it not? You

7:54

know, that's always the question I have. Yeah,

7:56

it's interesting. Yeah, I think

7:58

in many ways it wasn't.

7:59

planned in the order that

8:02

it was. These are always topics that I've talked

8:04

about for the past 12 years. So the topic

8:06

of a ketogenic diet and using

8:09

ketosis as a tool to use food

8:11

as medicine and get the benefits of beta hydroxyvatorate

8:14

in your life, becoming fat adapted, becoming metabolically

8:16

flexible. Ketotarian was

8:18

my own journey and clinical

8:21

journey as well, how to do that.

8:24

Mostly plant-based ketogenic way of eating.

8:26

The inflammation spectrum was a deep dive in

8:29

inflammation and it's interesting

8:32

that the sort of deeper dive or crescendo

8:34

of discussing

8:37

these topics, I mentioned the topic

8:40

inflammation spectrum in ketotarian

8:42

and I talk about fasting in both of those books.

8:45

So this is just intuitive fasting

8:47

with a deep dive into this concept that I feel like

8:49

when you're talking to so many different people

8:52

from a functional medicine standpoint, it's very

8:54

interesting to see this tool be used for

8:56

good sometimes and used unintentionally

8:58

and not a good way. And as

9:00

its name implies, intuitive fasting,

9:03

I want people to really

9:05

get to a place and operate and resonate

9:07

from a place of intuition. And that goes

9:09

beyond food and fasting and

9:12

wellness. It's just life itself. And that's really

9:14

what wellness is, life itself. It's just how you

9:16

operate through life itself. So I

9:19

want people to get to and come from

9:21

a place of intuitive fasting,

9:23

of using fasting to hear just still

9:25

small voice of their intuition, but it's really hard

9:28

when you're metabolically inflexible, when you're inflamed,

9:30

you have hormonal imbalance, dysregulation

9:34

of the body. It's really hard to discern

9:36

between inflammation and intuition

9:38

or hormonal imbalance and intuition

9:41

or hangryness or intuition. I mean, stress,

9:44

emotional eating is not intuitive eating. So

9:46

I want people to get to that place, but

9:48

we can use these tools to get

9:51

there. So it's just

9:53

a continuing of the conversation this book

9:55

is.

9:56

And you just said so many

9:58

words, like these.

9:59

buzzwords of things including

10:02

metabolic balance, hormone

10:05

regulation. Can we maybe go through a couple

10:07

of those, maybe starting with the metabolic

10:09

function and the role

10:12

that it plays as we

10:13

either start our ketogenic diet

10:15

or just on a regular basis?

10:16

Totally. So, metabolic

10:19

flexibility is a term that

10:21

we use to describe the ability

10:24

to burn fat for fuel and burn sugar

10:26

for fuel. So, it's ability to have the

10:28

grace and the flexibility to do

10:30

both. Most people are stuck in

10:33

sugar burning mode, most of your audience will

10:35

know that, and a clean ketogenic

10:38

nutrient dense whole foods based diet is

10:40

one way to really gain metabolic

10:43

flexibility and many people

10:45

that are maybe new to this community

10:47

of being fat adapted or keto adapted,

10:49

they aren't even

10:51

then into that umbrella,

10:53

they aren't fully keto adapted. So, this is

10:55

something that I want people to learn

10:58

to do it in a sustainable way, in a measured

11:01

sustainable way for their life because as

11:03

you and I both advocate, this is a lifestyle, this is

11:06

not a diet, this is an a fad crash

11:08

thing, this is just integrating you

11:10

feeling great in your life and that's

11:13

really the ethos of everything that

11:15

I do obviously with patients and what I talk

11:16

about in the books.

11:18

So, the analogy that's often

11:21

used I think is really good for people that are trying

11:23

to depict this in their mind. Sugar burning

11:25

is like kindling on the fire, it's going to be

11:27

short lived, you keep putting kindling on the fire

11:29

to maintain that energy. You

11:31

can have cleaner kindling like a

11:33

whole foods diet with starches

11:36

and fruits and smoothies and legumes and all

11:38

that stuff, that's an option, it's a cleaner kindling.

11:41

And then you have the dirty kindling on the standard western

11:43

diet with refined carbohydrates and junk

11:45

food and that thing but they're both

11:47

kindling nonetheless.

11:48

The alternative is burning fat for fuel

11:50

which is our own fat if we have

11:52

any or using an exogenous fat from

11:55

the food that we eat and getting our body to a point where

11:57

we can eat place

12:00

of ketosis. That's that logon of fire. It's

12:02

more slow burning. It's going to be sustainable, which

12:04

is why we see the benefit

12:07

of a ketogenic diet. Both fasting

12:10

and the ketogenic diet both increase

12:12

ketosis. So they're really part of the same

12:15

lifestyle because it's a bit

12:17

of the two sides of the same coin because the

12:19

more fat adapted somebody is, the

12:22

more they will probably just do time restricted

12:24

feeding or they'll intermittent fast without

12:26

even thinking about it. Not because they're willing it

12:28

or it's this arduous punitive fasting protocol

12:31

just because they eat when they're hungry, their blood sugar

12:33

is more stable because they have that logon

12:35

of fire. But conversely, the more

12:38

somebody intermittent fast, the more they're going

12:40

to produce ketosis and more they're

12:42

going to become more fat adapted. So

12:45

they are very symbiotic

12:47

in that way, a ketogenic diet

12:49

and intermittent fasting. But they don't always

12:52

have to go hand in hand. I mean, most

12:54

of the studies done on intermittent fasting

12:57

didn't really, they don't really change the diet

12:59

much to see the effectiveness. Will

13:02

intermittent fasting or time restricted feeding,

13:04

will that stand on its own merit without

13:07

changing the diet? And research

13:09

shows, yes, it does. It has many benefits,

13:12

which I explore in the book. But I,

13:15

as a functional medicine practitioner, I'm not going to

13:17

advocate you to fast your way out of a poor

13:19

diet. And I think that and the ketogenic

13:21

diet really because it is some symbiotic

13:24

fasting, it works so well because it is

13:26

stabilizing and is very congruent

13:28

to these mechanisms

13:29

that we want to tap into.

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only. And when it comes to hormones,

15:14

like you mentioned hormones and so many of the

15:16

women listening, you know, the classic

15:19

high testosterone, low DHEA

15:22

situation or the opposite of low progesterone

15:25

and they're wondering why they're always hungry

15:27

or why when they look at a cracker they

15:29

gain five pounds. And I would

15:31

imagine that by

15:33

not understanding hormones and not supporting

15:36

our hormones that this intuitive structure

15:39

that you're talking about is probably pretty hard,

15:41

right? Yeah, it is. Because

15:43

again, hormone imbalance

15:46

is not coming from a place of intuitive

15:48

eating because what's up is down and down is

15:51

up. There'll be so much disillusionment

15:53

and frustration and that's a lot of my patients

15:55

that are trying to do the right thing that

15:57

hear about these amazing things in wellness. They

15:59

try to. to do it, but it's just an uphill battle.

16:02

It's very arduous, very

16:05

difficult. So these are

16:07

tools that people can lean into

16:09

to start to awaken. And

16:11

the term that comes to mind Paracelsus, one

16:14

of the fathers of modern medicine in late

16:17

1400s in Switzerland, we have Hippocrates, right?

16:19

The Hippocratic father of modern medicine.

16:21

Paracelsus was known as the father of toxicology,

16:24

or they called him the Martin Luther of medicine

16:27

because he was reforming medicine at that time.

16:29

He called fasting to physician within.

16:31

And I think that's a really interesting way of

16:33

thinking about it of this sort of inner

16:36

doctor, this physician within that

16:38

allows our body to start to heal itself

16:41

and tapping into these things that would have been

16:43

innate and dormant for a long

16:45

time in our DNA. And it's decreasing

16:48

this chasm between genetics and epigenetics

16:50

as well as allowing your body to actually

16:52

rebalance

16:53

and support these pathways

16:55

that are not optimized, allowing

16:58

your body to optimize these things, whether

17:00

that be detox pathways to clear out those

17:02

excess hormones, whether that's really supporting

17:05

the gut-brain axis and lowering inflammation

17:07

levels, which allows the body to shift

17:09

from this sympathetic fight-or-flight

17:11

state to a parasympathetic state, which is resting,

17:14

digesting, but also hormonally balanced

17:16

state. So I see these

17:18

really cool things that allows the

17:21

body to get its head above water, so to speak,

17:23

to allow to repair things that were

17:25

prior to that, prior to

17:28

when they were in a state of metabolic inflexibility

17:31

or a metabolic rigidity, all these

17:33

things seemed impossible, or they look

17:35

at the cracker, as you mentioned, like gaining the five pounds,

17:38

or they try it at all, gritting

17:40

their teeth through these punitive diets and

17:43

starvation and caloric restriction. That's

17:46

the antithesis of what I want

17:48

for people. And that's the antithesis of your

17:50

message and my message too, when it comes to using

17:52

food and fasting as medicine.

17:54

Yes, and there are so

17:57

many different ways to fast, and

17:59

so it might be

17:59

helpful as we move forward, kind of talking about

18:02

fasting, your approach to fasting, that

18:04

we really define what that is because

18:07

some people will use fatty coffees

18:09

and consider it fasting. Others, it's just water.

18:12

Others, it's dry fasting. As you know,

18:14

there's a billion different ways to do this fasting

18:16

thing. So I'd love to just preface

18:18

like, what are we talking about here?

18:21

Yeah. And there is so many ways and there's so much

18:23

compelling research around different ways. So I don't

18:25

think there's a right way or a wrong way

18:28

per se. It's how you use

18:30

it in the context of the person that is

18:32

using it. So that matters. But

18:35

specifically, what I'm exploring in

18:37

intuitive fasting is time-restricted

18:40

feeding. So it's the specific, it's not

18:42

caloric restriction. It's not a fasting,

18:45

like a mimicking diet where you're limiting

18:48

your calories for a period of time, but

18:50

it is tapping into time-restricted

18:53

feeding, which is very strategic times

18:56

of eating to leverage

18:58

the benefits and giving your body time to repair

19:01

and rest because eating is wonderful.

19:03

And there's the yin and the yang with this. So there's

19:05

a time to eat and a time to fast. And I think

19:07

of time to eating, that's

19:10

why I paired with intuitive fasting with

19:12

a keto-terrion way of eating. So it's for

19:15

many people that have read keto-terrion, this is sort of a

19:17

continuing of that conversation.

19:18

And it pairs really well with that

19:20

way of eating because they are so symbiotic

19:23

and complementary of themselves,

19:25

of each other, that I want people to

19:28

balance their blood sugar to really lean

19:31

into these clean keto foods, but

19:33

in very specific windows. So

19:35

we start off with bigger eating windows

19:37

and then shrink them and then expand them back

19:39

out. So these vacillating time-restricted

19:42

feeding windows or intermittent fasting windows,

19:44

depending on how you look at that, they

19:47

are allowing your body to gain

19:49

metabolic flexibility. So I think of it

19:51

as like this proverbial yoga

19:53

class for your metabolism where week

19:56

one, it's a four-week plan that again,

19:58

these are things that I just talked

20:59

or

22:00

OMAD approach or OMAD for people that

22:02

are new to fasting, it's one meal a day

22:04

or OMAD. And

22:06

it is the deepest fast for week three,

22:08

it's an every other day fast, so it's not every

22:10

day. And it is the alternative

22:13

days, you're back to that

22:16

12-12 fasting to eating window. But I want people

22:18

to start to tap into these deeper ketosis

22:20

during those, that week three, to

22:23

get the autophagy or cellular recycling

22:25

benefits to start to gain

22:28

even more that more log in the fire

22:30

as far as stem cell activation and these longevity

22:33

benefits that really explore, the researchers

22:35

are exploring in these deeper fasting windows.

22:38

And then week four, it's hormonal rebalance

22:40

week. So we're putting more kindling on the fire,

22:43

but in a cleaner kindling sort of way,

22:45

and do a cyclical keto-terrion approach

22:48

that week, which you mentioned hormones,

22:50

I mean, depending on what hormones you're talking about and

22:52

who you're talking about, a lot of people, not

22:54

everybody, need a little bit more exogenous,

22:57

clean kindling for their hormones.

23:00

And I want people to experiment with that and learn

23:02

what their body loves.

23:03

Some people need less kindling and do

23:05

better with that. Some people need more kindling,

23:08

explore that. This is intuitive fasting,

23:10

this is not a punitive set in stone thing

23:13

that it's malleable as the human physiology

23:16

is malleable. And it's unique in the sense

23:18

that, or I should say it's diverse, like

23:20

we are all diverse. And

23:22

so that's things like sweet potatoes, fruits,

23:25

rice, stuff like that, that

23:27

allows to support that thyroid hormone

23:29

conversion or the progesterone production

23:31

around your cycle or whatever

23:33

the case may be. Because these are all

23:35

tools that are all part of the same thing.

23:37

It doesn't have to be fasting is bad for

23:40

women or fasting, everyone should fast. It's

23:42

like the truth is often sometimes in the middle.

23:44

And I'm bringing the context to these

23:47

four weeks.

23:48

Yes, like nobody could see my

23:50

face as you were talking. I was like,

23:52

yes, preach, yes, you

23:54

got it. And like, it's so true.

23:57

And I'll never forget going

23:59

on. stage for KetoCon

24:02

back in like 2017. And I was sharing

24:04

that message of like, sometimes you need

24:06

carbohydrates and not not

24:08

all days are going to look the same on your ketogenic

24:10

diet. And this is a good thing. And I was so

24:12

afraid

24:13

that people were going to throw like butter

24:15

at me.

24:15

A lot of people did leave. But

24:17

it's so great to have authors

24:19

like you and like brilliant

24:22

minds sharing this of that it

24:24

needs to be diverse

24:26

because we all are diverse. And so

24:28

yes, thank you so much from all

24:30

of us, maybe who haven't read it yet. So

24:33

your book's coming out in a couple days for creating

24:35

this because every little bit counts

24:38

toward people starting to hear that message.

24:40

And what I heard from you while you were speaking is

24:42

not doing the same thing every day

24:45

and that this is actually awesome. Would

24:47

that be a good summary? Yeah,

24:48

exactly. Because you I

24:51

called it intuitive fasting for two different reasons.

24:53

One, calming the noise in your body, calming the

24:55

inflammation, calming the hormone imbalance in the body

24:58

allows the noise to calm down.

25:00

Actually, physiologically, that noise of inflammation

25:03

and balance will calm down so they can actually hear

25:05

their intuition and that sort of resonant

25:08

knowingness of what your body loves. But

25:11

also, I want them to lean

25:13

actually pretty early on and actually

25:15

starting to hear that voice of

25:17

intuition even when it's not so easy at the beginning

25:20

to start knowing, hey, whoa, I feel better

25:23

on this type of fast. I feel better with this.

25:25

I feel better with this. So throughout the whole

25:27

book, I'm having people check in with their energy,

25:30

check in with your weight, check in with your digestion,

25:32

check in with your sleeves, check in with your libido,

25:34

check in with your hair. All of that stuff

25:37

needs to be looked at because that's

25:40

going to be these check engine lights on

25:42

a personal level to see what

25:44

you need more of and what you need less of.

25:47

So we're all unique and that through

25:50

leaning into this, there's so many levels

25:52

of learning about your body that

25:55

you won't need to

25:57

hear some doctor. or

26:00

someone demonizing what you're doing or not doing

26:02

as being the wrong thing in these tribal wars within

26:05

wellness, it will be meaningless. It'll be secondary because

26:07

you'll know for yourself, I know what works

26:09

for me, and that's what's important. Empowerment,

26:12

yes.

26:13

Exactly. And

26:15

have that discernment so when you're sitting in

26:17

a doctor's office and they say, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you

26:19

can say no. Yeah. That's

26:22

not how my body works. And to have that empowerment is huge.

26:25

And do you feel like a check to engine light would

26:27

also be a woman's cycle? Yeah,

26:29

totally.

26:30

Because women

26:32

are higher in kiss-peptin levels, which

26:35

is a signaling molecule that makes them more, some

26:37

women, more sensitive to fasting

26:40

or ketogenic diet. And

26:42

if you're noticing, hey, look, you can

26:44

get amazing benefits of ketosis, the

26:47

anti-inflammatory, the anti-oxidempathic,

26:50

all the stuff we're talking about, right? But

26:53

it's a balancing act. It's that Goldilocks principle

26:55

of just right when

26:56

you need it. And women have that whole other component

26:58

that is waxing, waning, that's

27:01

cycling, that people that aren't menstruating don't

27:03

understand or don't get. And we need to talk about

27:05

that, that you're going to need different things

27:08

depending on where you're at in your cycle. So

27:10

the same thing every day, all day, forever,

27:13

is not going to work for many

27:15

women that are, there's

27:17

that delicate ebb and flow of progesterone

27:20

and estrogen.

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29:18

You were saying you know as as your body

29:20

gets quieter and inflammation

29:22

is decreasing,

29:25

I would imagine then that over

29:27

time your fasting protocol, how

29:29

you're eating the ketogenic diet will also have

29:31

to change because your body is healing. I think

29:34

a lot of people don't recognize that

29:36

and they stay on the same protocol. I'm

29:39

fasting 18 hours every day and

29:41

I'm eating this and it's going to work and then they

29:43

get to a point where nothing's working. Any

29:46

thoughts on that as like as you're healing

29:48

which is what we're all here to do,

29:49

what do we do and what are the sort

29:52

of signs to look for that it's time to shift?

29:54

Yeah I think that always

29:57

being conscious of what you're doing and don't

29:59

be on autopilot.

29:59

pilot or don't think, well, because it worked for

30:02

back in the day that it's something that you're

30:04

a failure or no, that's not the plan,

30:06

depending on your personality type. It's

30:09

just to pivot is like a failure.

30:12

Pivoting is not a failure. Pivoting is part

30:15

of life actually. And it's a grace and lightness

30:17

that maybe that person needs to infuse into

30:19

their life to realize it's okay. That

30:22

is life. That is the ripple dynamic

30:24

nature of humanity and of

30:27

which whoever that's being

30:29

super punitive for themselves, maybe

30:31

unintentionally, I think a lot of times they don't even thinking about

30:34

it. They're just, no, that's the thing. And like that,

30:36

I always have to do that. And if I deviate from that, that's

30:38

not good. Well check in with your body,

30:40

see what your body has to say. And

30:42

you know, look, really look at all of these

30:44

levels. And I adapted from questions

30:47

that I asked patients, I adapted this quiz

30:49

in the book. So people kind of kind of have

30:51

those snapshots of time for themselves. So

30:54

maybe they don't have labs, so they don't have a functional

30:56

medicine doctor, they don't have a coach in their life, but

30:58

they can kind of check in with that quiz to kind of

31:00

see, hey, where am I at? As the

31:03

more metabolically flexible you are, you're

31:05

going to have completely different

31:07

set of variables as far as your

31:09

physiology is concerned, where the

31:12

rules will become antiquated.

31:15

The rules you used to think you had to do will

31:17

become, and like you said, that's kind of the point of this

31:19

anyways, you're supposed to be improving your health. The

31:21

rules can

31:22

adjust accordingly.

31:24

Yes, and so I also wanted

31:26

to ask you on intuition, because

31:29

when people hear that word, like intuitive,

31:32

they're like, there's no rules, there's no template,

31:34

I'm going in blind, you're saying

31:36

do whatever I want, I can't trust my body,

31:39

if I trust my body I would be at, I don't

31:41

know, pick a place, McDonald's eating all

31:43

the, what did they even serve there?

31:45

The Happy Meals, I don't know.

31:48

You know, so like how do

31:50

you balance that out? It sounds like your book does

31:52

a great job at giving those

31:54

checks and balances in place to teach people

31:56

how to be intuitive. Can we talk a little

31:59

bit about that? maybe some behavioral

32:01

issues that could come up and fears

32:03

that one has of like free reign.

32:06

That's what they hear when

32:06

they hear intuition. Yeah, no,

32:09

I totally get that. And that sort of

32:11

dichotomous, even that title, intuitive

32:14

fasting was like, how the heck could not eating

32:16

be intuitive? Like nobody's going to intuitively fast

32:18

with their metabolically inflexible. I get

32:21

that. That's why the book is called that

32:23

we're using fast act fasting to actually

32:25

flexible fasting to get metabolically

32:27

flexible so you can hear your intuition.

32:30

So I love that you brought

32:32

up that point because if when you use the

32:34

word intuition or intuitive eating,

32:37

right, it is on the in the

32:39

social media space. And in

32:41

certain sex of the well wellness

32:44

world, it can be used very

32:46

fluffy. And it's like, well,

32:49

say that to any one of my patients when

32:51

they first meet me, when their body's

32:53

an autoimmune flare, when their body's in

32:55

hormonal imbalances,

32:57

and they have insatiable cravings and hangryness,

33:00

blood sugars all over the place. And

33:02

they're told just eat intuitively. So

33:04

when you crave that donut, like

33:06

is that intuition? Well, no, it's

33:09

cravings masking itself as intuition.

33:11

So this is really putting

33:13

in the effort and the intention.

33:15

And it's a positive effort and positive

33:18

intention to actually give your body

33:20

the due diligence to physiologically

33:23

create a centered and soundness. So

33:25

you can't actually have the proper signaling

33:28

pathways, like hormonal signaling

33:30

and neurotransmitter signaling and gut brain access signaling,

33:32

all that stuff we want, you have to

33:34

actually build the infrastructure to truly

33:37

hear your intuition when it comes to

33:39

food, when it comes to rest, when

33:41

it comes to fasting, all this stuff. So

33:44

it sounds fluffy. And

33:46

what it can be used in very vapid ways,

33:49

what I'm talking about is actually quite practical.

33:51

It's actually truly having proper signaling

33:53

pathways to know what your body loves and know

33:55

what your body hates, and have the discernment

33:58

between the two. So I'm glad you brought it up.

33:59

that up because you have to have metabolic

34:02

flexibility to really have true

34:04

full intuition. And that's not to

34:06

say that women specifically

34:09

don't just have an innate intuition even

34:11

despite the noise of hormonal imbalance

34:13

and inflammation, but it's despite

34:15

those things that their intuition still shouting

34:18

through that imbalance. What I'm saying is let's

34:20

just have a more congruent environment

34:22

in your life and in your body to hear the

34:24

intuition more clearly and more stably.

34:27

So yeah, you have to get there because

34:29

metabolic

34:29

inflexibility is the death

34:32

of intuition really. So I want

34:34

people to get to a place of actually

34:36

having knowingness when it comes to their health and their

34:38

body.

34:38

And what I'm hearing from you also

34:40

is that the food quality, you know, a lot

34:42

of times you see people, yeah, yeah, I do

34:44

fasting and this is so good for me and when I'm eating,

34:47

I just choose whatever because it balances each

34:49

other out. But what I'm hearing from you is that this

34:51

is just part of the overall

34:54

process of the food quality

34:56

also matters and those helpful foods help

34:58

you get more and more in touch with your

35:00

intuition. Would that be fair? Absolutely.

35:02

Because the food you're eating is

35:05

going to work in alignment with that or

35:07

be an unintentional saboteur

35:10

of those goals. Every food we eat

35:12

either feeds inflammation or fights it. There's no

35:15

innocuous, I'm doing nothing for your physiology

35:17

food. So if the more

35:19

a food brings inflammation levels up, disrupts

35:22

the microbiome, impacts your blood

35:24

sugar, that's going to raise the

35:26

noise up in the body. So you can't even

35:28

discern what do I need?

35:32

How can I make sense of all of these things? Because

35:35

every meal and every snack is

35:37

like a confusion, a confusing

35:39

experience. So yeah, it's

35:41

definitely true. Your food is either

35:44

doing one or the other, we're all different.

35:47

So there's bio individuality there. And

35:49

also too, it's not just the

35:52

macronutrients that can be stabilizing these

35:55

things, it's the micronutrients too. It's the

35:57

minerals, the vitamins, the polyphenols,

36:00

phenols, all of these things too, will

36:02

be the raw materials for healing

36:05

your body.

36:06

Beautiful. And as

36:08

you were speaking, I kind of thought there are a

36:10

couple of women, a shout out to them

36:13

that I get messages from. And

36:15

do you know when you work with a client and they feel completely

36:18

helpless and inflammation is

36:21

at an all time high, their hormones are all over the place,

36:23

they're hungry all the time, they can't get a handle

36:26

on things. What I really like about your work

36:28

is that it's sort of like you meet

36:30

them where they are. And so what

36:32

I really want people to take away from this conversation

36:35

is that the work that you do, just like

36:37

you said, people are starting at different paths. But

36:40

I think sometimes books in

36:42

the health and wellness space can start way

36:44

off in bright field and somebody feels

36:46

like there's no way that I can do this. It's

36:49

not approachable. I feel completely helpless

36:51

and it's too far of a leap. Would you say

36:53

that for somebody like that, that

36:55

your book could be helpful and that you meet them

36:57

where they are with all of the things

36:59

happening?

37:00

Certainly. No. I

37:02

mean, like you said, like we, when you work with

37:05

people all day long and that's your main focus,

37:07

you've heard just about every scenario

37:09

you can think of on like where people could be

37:11

at, what's their headspace? What are their frequently asked

37:13

questions? Like what are the unintentional

37:16

excuses for why they shouldn't do it? What are the

37:18

legitimate excuses for why they shouldn't

37:20

do it? For legitimate reasons why

37:22

they can't do it. I try to walk

37:24

them through that hand in hand like these

37:26

are the things that you're thinking about and even when

37:29

it's just a matter of like I mentioned like

37:31

that week one or week two and whatever one

37:33

of those four weeks, you may want to repeat

37:35

those things and that's okay. Just because I'm

37:37

saying these are four weeks, it may be needed

37:40

much longer than that. Or

37:42

it's cycling through these four weeks as many times

37:44

as you need to. That

37:47

is called life. These are tools that you

37:49

can repeat as many times as you need to until

37:52

you get to where you need to be and you can check in with

37:54

that metabolic flexibility

37:56

quiz to kind of see, hey, subjectively

37:59

based on this quiz.

37:59

data, how am I improving

38:02

my health? And you'll know because these are how

38:04

you feel too, but you can quantify it.

38:06

I'm just starting to open up that dialogue, you

38:09

know, I can't tell you how many times I

38:11

work with a client and they're like, what? Like I could

38:13

just, you know, track my symptoms

38:16

and understand them like, yeah, like just start

38:18

a dialogue with your body and this is like mind

38:21

blowing, a mind blowing process.

38:23

It's quite easy. It's just people don't think

38:25

of it.

38:25

No, they don't. Because

38:27

we are in many ways divorced from that knowingness

38:30

about the body or intuition or just checking

38:33

in with themselves. They just think that, you

38:35

know, we say a lot, but it's true. Just because something's

38:37

common doesn't necessarily mean it's normal.

38:40

Like ubiquity doesn't necessarily equate

38:42

with normalcy. Your everyday things

38:45

you settle for or just push through or

38:47

ignore doesn't necessarily mean

38:50

you should be pushing through or just

38:52

settling or ignoring it. Because

38:54

these things like we talked

38:55

about energy levels, like how

38:58

is your energy level? Are you getting that afternoon crash?

39:00

Are you having trouble falling asleep or staying asleep?

39:04

How's your, all this stuff we're talking about. It's

39:06

really good. It's really good for people to start to have

39:09

that, whoa, I thought that was normal, but it actually

39:11

isn't normal. And actually they

39:14

can start to appreciate these things that are starting

39:16

to improve as the body finds that balance

39:18

again.

39:19

Yes, yes, completely. So

39:21

shifting gears a little bit into is

39:24

this for everyone? You know, is

39:26

fasting for everyone? Are there

39:28

certain people that should or shouldn't or maybe

39:31

stay on week one or just,

39:33

you know, a conversation around is this

39:35

for everyone?

39:36

Yeah, is it for everybody?

39:38

Well, it's how you do it, I

39:40

think. How you do it is for everybody

39:43

because everybody's

39:45

like week one, that 12, 12 body

39:47

reset pass. It's a very light time restricted feeding.

39:50

So I think that most people could benefit

39:52

from that. I can't think of a person that

39:54

couldn't because eating between 8

39:56

a.m. and 8 p.m. until you're

39:58

full eat when you're. hungry until

40:00

you're satiated, eating nutrient-dense healing

40:03

foods, allowing your body to fast

40:05

through the night until it breaks the fast in

40:07

the morning. I think that that's a sensible approach

40:09

for people. And what I want people to do

40:12

is they cycle through the four weeks and maybe cycle through

40:14

it a couple times. They can say, oh,

40:16

I feel better at this type of fast and I didn't really

40:18

like that one so much. And they can intuitively

40:22

readjust this protocol to suit their bio-individuality.

40:25

So, yeah, to varying degrees,

40:27

these are all things that people – I want people to sample

40:29

and lean in and figure out – start

40:32

to learn about their body and what they need more of

40:34

and what they need less of. But even

40:36

the deepest fast, they're not forever. So,

40:38

these are just limited experiences

40:40

to learn about your body and to

40:43

gain some metabolic flexibility and tap

40:45

into these benefits that we're talking about.

40:47

So, none of them are always

40:49

and forever. So, you're ebbing and

40:52

flowing and going in and out of these

40:54

levels of ketosis. So, these temporal

40:56

vacillating windows, I think, are good

40:58

for most human beings. It

41:01

doesn't mean it's going to be super comfortable

41:03

with someone super metabolically rigid and

41:06

they're like, whoa, this fasting is tough. And

41:08

then naturally say, well, this isn't for me.

41:11

Fasting is not for me. That's like someone going to the

41:13

gym and being sore after their workout and saying, the

41:15

gym is not for me. Moving my body is not for

41:17

me. Sometimes when you have a very

41:20

tight rigid metabolism,

41:23

you're going to get a workout for a little bit

41:25

and that soreness, so to speak, whatever

41:27

that is, like a little bit more fatigue

41:29

or a little bit more like, oh my gosh, I'm hungry. A little bit

41:31

more blood sugar adjusting or a little physiology

41:34

adjusting to these changes. That's

41:37

that proverbial yoga class that I mentioned.

41:39

A hot yoga class is tough and

41:41

you have to lean into it and be progressive and be

41:43

gentle yourself, but gentle but still

41:46

progressive. And it's that balancing

41:48

act of moving the needle, but don't

41:51

move the needle too fast, too soon. I

41:53

think that context matters. The

41:55

one caveat I would say are people that

41:57

have disordered eating. that

42:00

have, that need

42:02

to figure out a way that works for themselves

42:04

that aren't going to trigger them. There are many

42:07

people with past disordered eating that do really well

42:09

with time restricted feeding and fasting because they're eating

42:11

amply because just to repeat this again,

42:14

intermittent fasting, doing it the way

42:16

that we advocate it, you and I advocate

42:18

it, is that it is, this

42:21

is not chronic caloric restriction. This is the

42:23

antithesis of chronic caloric restriction. So

42:25

you're just being strategic about when

42:27

you're eating the food, but you're eating ample amounts of food.

42:30

So with that said, even those tighter fasting

42:33

windows, even if you're eating ample amounts of

42:35

food, I would say talk to your doctor,

42:38

talk to your eating disorder specialist or both

42:40

and they may give the okay because they see how nutrient-dense

42:43

it is in healing and for some people, maybe

42:45

it's not the right time for them and they need

42:47

to do more healing as

42:50

far as their relationship

42:50

with food and relationship with their body because

42:53

this should not be an eating

42:55

disorder disguised as a wellness

42:57

practice. This is not what we're talking about

42:59

here, but other than those people, I think

43:01

that this is a very measured approach

43:03

for people to try.

43:05

Yeah, completely. And I'm really happy that you mentioned

43:07

eating disorders as somebody who struggled

43:09

with an eating disorder for 20 years. You

43:11

know, when I started the ketogenic diet and I started fasting,

43:14

it definitely triggered because I

43:17

was looking at it with restriction

43:19

and trying to limit my calories. And

43:22

it was actually about four years in my ketogenic

43:24

experience where I did not fast. There

43:27

were no rules. There was no, if I was hungry, I

43:29

ate. If I wasn't, I didn't track my eating. And

43:31

only after really the last

43:33

year, I've really gotten into fasting and

43:35

now being recovered for four years, I feel pretty

43:37

good about it. But you always have to

43:40

check yourself, check your heart, check where your

43:42

mind is at. And that's such

43:44

great advice and to speak with a professional

43:46

and get the okay. But then no, you

43:49

have the responsibility like check your heart daily.

43:52

You know, I was supposed to do a 24 hour fast now

43:55

into 7pm and I just woke up. I'm

43:57

like, nope, it's not gonna happen today. I'm not

43:59

feeling it. I can't do it and that's far

44:02

more high priority. My mental health way

44:05

higher priority than sticking to a plan

44:07

and saying no I planned a 24-hour fast.

44:09

I have to do

44:10

it. No, and that's intuition

44:12

saying no, I'm okay with that

44:14

I need to eat and that's okay. This

44:16

should not be punishing somebody Are you

44:18

feeling like a failure because this is just we

44:21

are trying to integrate feeling great

44:23

in your life This isn't about feeling like a failure

44:26

That's not the point of the day as if it if you're

44:28

feeling shame and stress You're never gonna

44:30

shame your stress your way into wellness. It's

44:32

really gonna be the opposite It's gonna

44:34

be such the source of dread if you

44:37

stick with it Or you're probably not gonna

44:39

stick with it because

44:40

it is such a source of shame and dread

44:42

So it's gonna be unsustainable and that's

44:44

not good either

44:45

Mm-hmm and to really for anyone,

44:48

you know, oftentimes people hear eating

44:50

disorder and they're like, well, I don't have that I don't need

44:52

to listen to this and yeah I think

44:54

the big thing here is most

44:56

of us have some sort of disordered relationship

44:59

to food if you've been on any diet

45:02

probably

45:02

likely Yeah,

45:05

sure. I mean an orthorexia

45:07

which I'm sure you I mean if this is a stress

45:10

shame around healthy eating I think in

45:12

our community. It's actually it exists on a

45:14

spectrum too and For

45:17

some legitimate reasons with the amount of flares

45:19

and autoimmune problems that people have around foods

45:23

That can trigger trauma around foods

45:25

and orthorexia But there's a lot of people that are

45:27

going in with good intentions

45:30

But it becomes this very restrictive very

45:32

punitive thing, which is not

45:34

coming from a place of intuition

45:35

Yes And this is why

45:37

I love your work because you say stuff like that

45:40

and we just align so much in How

45:42

we approach things and again, I just appreciate

45:44

you so much creating this book sharing

45:47

with the world Can you tell us where people

45:49

can interact with you get the

45:52

book what the deal is just lay it

45:54

all on us?

45:54

Everything's at dr. Will Cole calm

45:57

as DR W I ll C

45:59

o L E They can order intuitive

46:02

fasting from there, the links to Amazon, Rons and

46:04

Opal Target, all that stuff. But we,

46:06

yeah, there's a lot of free content

46:08

there to learn about themselves

46:11

and see functional medicines right for them too.

46:13

Amazing. And I'm going to include a

46:15

link to your book that launches in just a couple

46:17

of days so people can grab that. And

46:19

yeah, just thank you so much for coming on the

46:21

show.

46:22

Thanks so much for having me.

46:28

Thanks for listening. Join us next Tuesday

46:30

for another episode of the Keto Diet Podcast.

46:33

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46:37

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