0:42

Jessica Eley supports high achievers

0:44

in creating success after their own

0:46

definition , whether it's work-life balance

0:48

or sustainable growth , or conscious pursuit

0:50

of their next big goals . Jessica's mentorship

0:53

has transformed how entrepreneurs and

0:55

executives do business and life

0:57

. She's a mom of five and we all appreciate

1:00

her hashtag . Shitty mindset drawings

1:02

on Instagram . Jess , welcome

1:04

back to the Scenic Route podcast .

1:07

Hi there , thanks for having me Again

1:09

.

1:11

Yes , yes , my pleasure

1:13

, our pleasure , that's she

1:15

now and my regret later , because

1:19

last time we did , we did steer up

1:21

deep shit . At this time it's not

1:23

going to be any different . So , yeah

1:26

, I feel I have to kind of like give

1:28

a prelude . I

1:31

was voxing Jess

1:33

or talking

1:35

back and forth , and it kind of came up that like

1:37

for us personally

1:39

and as well for a lot of our clients

1:42

, it's kind of like this

1:44

very weird space

1:47

and time right now of a lot of transitions

1:50

happening and

1:52

not an astrology person Nonetheless

1:56

, I always like vox Jess

1:58

, screenshots of my daily horoscope

2:00

and see . So

2:03

I did some digging and

2:05

did you know that a part of

2:07

that , while we're all like feeling very

2:09

weird right now , is that

2:12

Ludo is

2:14

now back into Aquarius for the first

2:16

time in 248 years

2:18

.

2:19

Yes , so I did actually know this

2:21

is like a whole thing .

2:23

I know , which is insane , right

2:25

, because I mean last , I

2:27

mean I don't know 2024

2:31

minus . So oh , that

2:33

was 1776 . So

2:35

American Revolution ? Yes , it was during the American Revolution

2:38

, it was during

2:40

the French Revolution , it was the

2:42

height of the slave trade , the global slave trade

2:44

, so like a lot of weird shit

2:46

. And then

2:48

if we look at Ludo , like

2:51

he's like dark and

2:53

like metamorphosis , kind

2:55

of like Kafka , in a Kafka way , like

2:58

truth and power and peeling back layers

3:00

, and let's see what's going on , I feel

3:02

it's my like I don't know spirit

3:05

planet or something . And

3:09

Aquarius , looking at like

3:12

people , like it's really

3:14

like a humanitarian collectiveness

3:16

, larger

3:18

scale social matter sign

3:21

back

3:23

with rebellion , rebellion , revolution and

3:25

all those kind of things . We have also

3:28

in the global scale so many dumpster

3:31

fires at the moment . So

3:35

everything tangled up , and

3:37

I mean not an astrologist

3:39

, but I mean it's

3:43

going on , what's going on ? So it should

3:45

really fit .

3:47

Right , yes , I mean , you

3:49

lost me after Ludo has returned , because I don't

3:51

know any of the rest of it . And

3:57

this thing is like whether you pay

3:59

attention to that or whether it matters to you , or

4:01

whether you notice it or not . I

4:05

guess neither here nor there , right , like

4:07

, take what works for you and leave what doesn't . But

4:12

it is true that , at least

4:14

for the

4:17

microcosm of my

4:20

experience and most of the people I

4:22

am around their experience there is just

4:24

a boatload of

4:26

transition happening right now . Yes

4:29

, and some of me wonders like

4:31

to you know how much

4:33

is of this is related

4:36

to you . Know , like , most of the people

4:38

that I surround myself with are

4:41

maybe , say , like , 34

4:45

to 44 or something like

4:47

that . Right , which is

4:49

a time of life where

4:51

, like , maybe you're

4:54

done having really little kids

4:56

, or you're like finding

4:59

yourself close to midlife

5:01

and questioning a lot

5:03

of choices . You've kind of been to those

5:06

and so like , is it Pluto

5:08

or is it a midlife's crisis , or maybe

5:10

it's both ?

5:13

Say , I mean I'm turning the

5:16

big four O this year and

5:18

, yeah , same

5:21

. Like a lot of people are like I

5:24

don't know . I mean my brother , like

5:26

just I think two or three weeks ago

5:28

he came up to me and was like

5:31

, can you give me the number of

5:33

your therapist ? And

5:35

I'm like , oh my God , el

5:37

has frozen over . He's

5:41

not that or was

5:43

not that

5:45

kind of person . So , yeah , maybe

5:47

there it's , it's something to be

5:49

said . And also I noticed

5:52

, I've noticed this in myself . My

5:54

kid is now four and a half and it's really like

5:57

the first time where I'm

5:59

like , oh , maybe

6:01

I , I

6:04

, this is me and

6:07

I do with my life now , like

6:09

where the role and the

6:11

role , identity of mother isn't as like

6:14

omnipresent anymore

6:16

. But I also

6:18

feel like it's still an

6:20

aftermath of COVID . Yes

6:23

, right , like a lot of people had to

6:25

, definitely had to change , I don't

6:27

know business models no longer working , whatever

6:29

, so our industry is closing

6:32

down , so it's . It's kind of like a combination

6:34

of all those things .

6:38

Well , and from a business standpoint too , like

6:40

what everybody needed

6:42

was completely different during that time , and

6:44

so for some industries right , so like restaurants

6:47

and hospitality is like going

6:49

under during that time , some

6:51

other industries are like absolutely

6:54

booming because people are

6:56

sitting at home and have nothing , they can't

6:58

spend their money on the restaurants , and so like

7:00

well , I guess I might as well do some serious

7:03

introspection and hire somebody like Jess

7:05

.

7:07

I mean , I was just like , maybe I should order $400

7:09

silk pajamas .

7:11

I mean that's also fair , but

7:15

there was plenty of quality pajama time

7:17

to be had during that time . But

7:21

like that

7:24

is also definitely a significant

7:26

business change that I think you're

7:29

seeing , where people kind

7:32

of held on to what was working for

7:35

a couple of years and like now , it's just not

7:37

anymore . You can't

7:39

pretend it's working or

7:41

that the things that were valid were- .

7:43

Yeah , it's like you're still reanimated

7:46

a patient and someone is like she

7:48

dead . Though she dead , yeah , I'm

7:51

not sober . How , like

7:53

? How do we ? I mean , that's interesting

7:55

, right . Like maybe you've been

7:57

riding on a high of success and

7:59

now you're like I'm still doing

8:02

the same shit , but shit ain't working . Like

8:05

I mean , from

8:07

like a strategy point of view , blah , blah , blah

8:09

. Like we all know what we can do . But

8:11

more interesting , though , is like how you hold

8:14

yourself like energetically

8:16

, like how you're

8:19

not going to lose your shit , when

8:22

everything you know

8:24

that used to be

8:26

working and you're

8:28

still delivering the same quality and everything

8:30

, but it's just , it's just not

8:33

working anymore . I mean , you can like sugarcoat

8:35

it as much as you want , but yeah

8:37

, it's not going to fly anymore . How

8:40

do we hold ourselves ?

8:48

What's interesting is this idea

8:50

of holding yourself

8:52

like hanging

8:54

onto this idea of what was

8:56

right , hanging

8:58

onto an identity of

9:00

how you were . I've

9:03

heard from a lot of people things

9:05

like I just want to like come

9:07

show up , do my work and

9:10

then leave , right . A

9:12

lot of people who are like extremely skilled

9:14

at what they did I've seen go back to

9:16

jobs and be like incredibly

9:19

happy because they do . They

9:21

get to like that mental , they get to

9:23

like really plug out a business

9:25

Right , that

9:28

mental load is taken away from running

9:31

a business and so . But

9:33

there's a lot of questions of

9:35

identity , I think , wrapped up in

9:37

a transition . The more we

9:40

hold on to seeing ourselves

9:42

in a certain way , the harder

9:44

it is to transition , right , because

9:47

, by definition , you are moving from

9:49

what was into what is

9:51

becoming , and you cannot

9:54

do that while

9:56

maintaining that

9:58

something that once was has to continue

10:00

being . And so , like , how comfortable

10:03

are you with death , right ?

10:06

And I mean that it's like what

10:08

four minutes in we're comfortable

10:11

. Are you with them ? Thanks

10:13

, Jess . That's why I love you . I love you too .

10:17

But , like you know , it's like . It's like I

10:21

think I experienced my midlife's

10:23

crisis at like 25 . I

10:27

always had a little girl , though yeah

10:29

, it's not flattering

10:32

, by the way but

10:36

when I went through that , what I really

10:38

realized was , like , the more

10:40

comfortable I am with the idea

10:42

of facets of myself

10:45

being impermanent or

10:47

things that once worked no

10:50

longer working right . Everybody's

10:52

heard the idea of like , what

10:54

got you here won't get you there , but

10:56

it's also true that what

10:59

is working right now will

11:01

one day not work right

11:03

. We always think of it like retrospectively

11:06

, but I think there's something really valid

11:08

to be in this present

11:10

moment and say like okay , right

11:12

now I'm showing up like this

11:15

kind of mom , right , which is maybe like not

11:17

the newborn version of a mom . Or right

11:19

now I'm showing up like this kind of business

11:22

owner or this kind of person

11:24

, in whatever way we want to think

11:26

of it , and

11:28

that's not going to continue

11:31

to be the highest and best

11:33

expression of my

11:35

life . For

11:38

the rest of my life , that's

11:40

just what's working right now

11:42

. Right , and

11:46

so , yes , how do we hold on ? But

11:48

I'm almost more interested in like , how do we

11:50

let go and how are

11:52

we okay with this idea of

11:54

like okay , I once was this

11:57

, this was once my right people

11:59

to serve , I once really enjoyed

12:01

this kind of thing . You

12:03

know , pointing and dancing or

12:05

reels once worked for me . That's not how

12:07

I want to show up anymore . That kind

12:10

of thing right . And

12:12

how do we allow ourselves

12:14

to grieve

12:16

and then move on from

12:19

identities that we're serving

12:21

us but maybe aren't where we're

12:23

growing anymore ?

12:30

What would you think is like ? I'm

12:34

curious Like the whole . I agree

12:37

with like the whole letting go , and sometimes

12:39

we have a hard time with it because we

12:42

still feel our

12:45

identity so wrapped up in that

12:47

. And it's also

12:49

because I mean , to some extent , while

12:52

because it was a good time and we're like

12:54

we don't want to let it , or

12:56

because we're

12:58

getting more out of that past

13:00

trauma than what

13:03

is currently going on . I

13:07

am curious , like how , because most

13:09

of us , especially when you're building , when

13:11

you're on in the online business world , we

13:13

do a lot of our lives like online

13:16

, and I'm

13:18

curious of the intersection between

13:21

, like our personal identity

13:23

versus our public identity

13:25

in the sense of how how

13:29

much shame like comes into it

13:31

, like okay , I

13:34

know this is no longer working , but hey

13:36

, maybe I don't want to admit

13:39

that this is no longer working because my

13:41

pop , the public reception of my identity

13:43

, could take a hit or

13:45

could whatever . So

13:48

what's , what's

13:52

your take on my ramblings

13:54

?

13:54

I Mean

13:57

in that , to

14:00

oversimplify it , I

14:02

think Most

14:04

people fall into one of two camps

14:06

. There's people who Learn

14:09

out loud really well , all right . So

14:12

I have friends who like

14:14

sharing the journey , and

14:17

sharing the journey helps them

14:19

continue on the journey and

14:22

it helps them like find community

14:24

in kind of the yucky

14:27

, weird parts . It helps

14:29

them also like galvanize the

14:31

parts that stay consistent , right

14:33

. So I've had people tell

14:35

me things like oh , I listened

14:37

to something that I said Five

14:40

years ago and I realized that those

14:42

things are still true and I'm still saying the same

14:44

things , and like all the advice

14:46

that I was giving was still valid and

14:48

and and and right . And so for

14:50

those people like being

14:53

open , you know

14:55

, to whatever degree makes

14:57

sense for you is

15:00

Is part

15:03

of the process of transitioning

15:05

. I'll also say that

15:07

like that can be an identity

15:09

that you have , that you have this idea of

15:11

like I'm the person who learns out loud and

15:14

so you keep thinking that you need to do it

15:16

, when in fact , maybe you're more

15:18

like someone like myself who

15:21

is probably gonna like all away

15:25

for a big

15:27

, you know , six months

15:29

to a year , and that

15:33

doesn't like that doesn't mean there's anything wrong

15:36

. Yeah , but I do

15:38

better when I

15:40

have come to some

15:43

kind of conclusion . And it doesn't

15:45

mean like here's the definitive

15:47

answer . It means I went

15:49

through a process and here's

15:51

what I learned through the process

15:53

. Not like let me show

15:56

you my process as I'm figuring it out

15:58

, kind of thing , right and

16:00

and so

16:02

for somebody like me , I

16:05

really have no interest in In bringing

16:08

people along for the journey , in

16:10

part because I don't really feel like it's

16:12

a journey . It is kind of

16:14

, but it's more like I'm just

16:16

living right . And what I

16:19

am a very Be aware of

16:21

is that right now I don't have like

16:23

some Concrete

16:26

or valuable expression

16:28

of myself to share with you . Slash

16:32

, it would not be valuable to me

16:34

to share those things with you , right

16:36

, it would just be a drain . So

16:39

I'm gonna go do me for a minute

16:41

and when I feel that there's something

16:44

of value , then I'll come back

16:46

and tell you what's up , right , but

16:48

until then I'm

16:51

gonna keep being and

16:53

figure out what the

16:56

next expression of myself

16:58

is that I actually want

17:00

to share with people . But it's not like I

17:02

stopped being . Yeah , right

17:04

, it's just , paul , doesn't make

17:06

sense in life and you're like , right , no

17:09

let me figure this out right

17:12

, Right , but like that's

17:14

the idea of like figuring

17:16

it out right yeah . Yeah , it's not really a

17:18

thing either .

17:19

Yeah , right , doing the whole , you'd pray , love and

17:21

everything just pauses for that moment While

17:23

you're on this journey to finding yourself or what

17:25

we finding yourself . And it's like no , no

17:27

, no , you got to do it between school runs . Yeah

17:30

, exactly , yes , yeah

17:33

, I'm okay . So you

17:35

said okay , you're more interested in , kind of like , how

17:37

we move on . And

17:39

it's also kind of like how ready are you to

17:42

to like to To

17:44

die or to let parts of you

17:46

, identities of you , die ? I

17:49

mean , yeah , when we talk about dying , I

17:51

mean it could be like when we look at dying

17:54

and like the stages of grief yeah

17:57

, what was her name ? Kubler

18:00

Ross . Like denial , anger

18:02

, bargaining , depression

18:04

. Acceptance like this

18:08

is really something to like Follow

18:11

true for transition as well

18:13

. Right , why we ? Yes , yes . So

18:17

like , first , absolutely yes , everything is still working

18:19

, no , I'm fine . Like yeah , and then , holy fuck , why

18:21

you're not buying my shit ? And then like , oh , please buy my

18:23

shit . I'm adding in a freebie

18:25

. And

18:28

then like the depression of like , actually , I'm realizing

18:31

no one is actually buying my shit , what

18:34

the fuck do I do with my life ? And then

18:36

, yes , acceptance , it

18:39

is what it is . Yes , yes

18:41

, I know we cannot shortcut

18:43

anything to acceptance

18:45

. I wish I could . I would make a lot of money

18:48

if I would have to shortcut . But how

18:51

can we like face

18:53

rest , less resistance in

18:56

moving through the different stages

18:58

?

19:00

The grief can't be wrong , right

19:03

, and I think greedy face like a big

19:06

part where I see people

19:08

get stuck . Or

19:11

the anger , right , and a

19:13

lot of you know positive

19:16

psychology kind

19:18

of Psycho babble , right

19:20

, like the not actually science , for part

19:23

of it , has has really

19:25

bastardized

19:27

People

19:30

. Like feeling their negative

19:33

feelings , right , negative in

19:35

air quotes , yeah , again . Like it's

19:37

all just life , right , so

19:40

is grief , is anger

19:42

my more favorite expressions

19:44

and feelings ? No , but

19:48

like it's all just part of it , right

19:50

, yeah , and the more that

19:53

I can say Like

19:55

, oh , I'm having a hard time with

19:57

the fact that , like it doesn't

19:59

feel good to be serving the people who I once

20:02

served and like Can

20:04

I let myself say that

20:06

I've outgrown

20:09

something or that there's

20:11

, there's a part of me that

20:14

wishes that I could just Say

20:17

the same shit over and over and be

20:19

happy with it right , sidebar

20:22

that my father-in-law said this to me once I think

20:24

it was when I was running workshops for water , like eons

20:28

ago , and he

20:30

said something about how , like you know , all you could just

20:32

like , basically

20:35

, you rinse and I used to pee right

20:38

over and over and like

20:40

a very like corporate model , right , and at the time I

20:43

was like , oh my god , I would die

20:46

, like that would be absolutely

20:48

horrible , absolutely horrible . Well

20:50

, what is it that I'm doing now ? It's that right

20:53

, because now I

20:55

, but like I had to work up

20:57

to that right now , like for

21:00

the longer word .

21:01

I'm now your life's . Your life's

21:03

different now .

21:03

Yes , I Wanted

21:05

to be this person who was like always like

21:08

coming up with the fresh and the new when the

21:10

, and I still enjoy that . But

21:12

I don't need to make my money that way right

21:15

, and I

21:17

don't need my business

21:19

to be as Regenerative

21:22

as it once was , because now my life

21:24

is more so that way right

21:26

, which means that

21:28

I can do things like Latter-in-tropied

21:32

yeah , and just churn

21:35

right yeah and I don't know .

21:37

I just want to bargain and say this does not

21:39

go just for business , right

21:41

like no . You know , it

21:43

could be your relationship , your family , like

21:45

anything . That's kind of like a placeholder

21:48

for An external placeholder

21:50

for giving you meaning and purpose . Yes

21:54

, yes .

21:56

Yes , for sure .

21:58

Yeah , okay , just so people are like , well

22:00

, I don't have a business , I don't need to hear , so you

22:02

do .

22:05

Yeah , I mean because you know

22:07

, I think when

22:10

you're in a season

22:12

of Some

22:15

area of life

22:17

being very depleting , the

22:19

other areas of life need

22:22

to be regenerative . And

22:25

for me that looked like I had

22:27

four small kids in

22:30

the middle of a pandemic and no

22:32

help and a husband who worked 80

22:34

hour weeks , and and so it

22:36

was like no , I'm not , I'm not doing

22:38

Shit in my business

22:41

, that it is not

22:43

Somehow filling me

22:45

up . Why ? Because I'm

22:47

already giving to everything

22:50

else and so the only way

22:52

I am willing to make money is

22:54

if the actions

22:56

associated with even trying

22:59

to make money make me

23:01

more filled up , right

23:03

, and as

23:06

I get more capacity in

23:09

Different ways , right Now

23:13

I can borrow that capacity to

23:15

a place like my business , right , and I can say

23:17

, okay , well , now I'll make the streamlined

23:20

choice , now I'll make the

23:22

choices that are more Smart

23:26

in air quotes , because

23:28

I can borrow that capacity from

23:30

my life .

23:31

Yeah .

23:34

And that doesn't mean that I'm I

23:36

am still 0% willing to

23:39

do things that Don't

23:43

somehow Nurture

23:46

or take care of me or

23:49

that aren't , at a minimum , like

23:51

not depleting . But I

23:53

know what those things are and so it's very

23:55

, very fast for me . When , probably

23:57

about a year ago , I sat down

24:00

because I could tell I was like askings

24:02

are changing , and I didn't

24:04

just I don't just mean like Like

24:07

the business , right , it was like also

24:09

me , right , how I wanted to show up

24:11

was changing and and I

24:13

made this gigantic list

24:15

of like Absolutely positively

24:18

will , not , right . And

24:20

I was surprised by

24:22

how many things that

24:25

worked and that were actually

24:27

key to , in

24:29

my case , making my business work For

24:33

years and years were now on

24:35

the absolutely positively no

24:37

fucking way List

24:39

, right . And then there was a list

24:41

of like well , what would I be

24:44

willing to do ? And that

24:46

was playful , like

24:48

Okay , what could I

24:50

try ? And if it doesn't

24:52

work out , whatever , it was a cool experiment

24:55

, right . The whole . My favorite four

24:57

questions what am I curious about ? What I'm interested in

24:59

, what sounds fun and

25:01

what sounds easy , right , and and

25:04

Screw

25:06

around and see what comes of it . And my

25:09

list of absolutely positively must

25:11

have was like two things

25:13

law Right , there's

25:16

very , very , very few requirements

25:18

, and I think that's almost why a

25:20

transition is hard is because

25:22

all we know in the transition

25:24

is not this yeah

25:26

, and we can tell you that we don't

25:29

know much about what , we

25:31

do what , and that's

25:34

like that's when you have

25:36

to start experimenting .

25:39

Do you think it's really like that we don't

25:41

know , or that we

25:44

don't want to admit

25:46

that we do know ? Or

25:48

like our people's or our skier to

25:50

like I Don't

25:53

know at mid to our selves and

25:56

then like to , yeah , ever

25:58

growing , ever growing bigger circle

26:00

of people like what we do ?

26:01

want . Yes , it

26:04

is often that , very

26:06

certainly , it is often that and

26:10

I'll say it

26:12

depends on how

26:14

much Deconditioning you have done , so

26:17

, like how aware are

26:19

you of the things that you wanted

26:22

? Just because other people wanted those things

26:24

for you , right ? Yeah , and Often

26:28

a transition happens because

26:30

this someone has been doing that Deconditioning

26:32

work and then they're kind of left

26:34

standing around being like great , so

26:37

if I don't want any of those things , then

26:39

what the fuck do I want ? Right , and

26:41

and that . And that

26:43

begins this cycle

26:45

of like exploring for

26:47

your own Understanding of , like

26:49

, what it is that's really good for you , and

26:52

so like , yes , there's definitely

26:54

people who fall into your camp , and

26:56

then there's people who are truly

26:59

just figuring out , like , what

27:01

does my actual

27:04

self want ? Right , not the

27:07

self that everybody else Kind

27:10

of taught me to be .

27:13

What is ? Do

27:16

you have a ? Hmm , okay

27:18

, two questions . Do you ? Is there , do you have

27:20

like a favorite telltale sign that makes

27:22

you kind of like , is

27:25

this something Either in your

27:27

like that I really want , or in your clients

27:29

, like , is this really , or

27:31

is this something this person is consciously

27:33

or subconsciously , kind of like conditioned

27:36

to believe ? Like

27:38

what is there a telltale sign ? Can we spot

27:41

it ? And then

27:44

like how

27:46

, let's

27:49

go with that one first and then the

27:51

alpha , yeah .

27:53

Yes , definitely . So

27:57

the short answer is Nearly

28:00

anything that you want , that is a a

28:02

reaction to something

28:05

that currently is , is almost

28:07

always conditioned . Okay

28:09

almost always a reaction to something

28:12

so . So , my

28:14

pants are tight . I want to lose weight

28:17

. My bank account is low . I want

28:19

to make more money . I'm sick

28:21

of doing reels . I want to get off of

28:23

Instagram , like

28:25

, okay , we can like

28:27

keep going like this , right ? Um

28:29

, you know , like I

28:32

don't like my partner so much , I

28:34

Want to go to

28:37

therapy with

28:39

him , right ? Whatever there's

28:41

, is it

28:43

a reaction ? So

28:45

when , the when

28:48

? An external and current

28:50

stimuli external also

28:52

meaning the

28:55

thoughts in your head about

28:57

what it is you are experiencing

29:00

right now . So current

29:02

situations are

29:04

spurring the change

29:06

that is almost always conditioned

29:09

, unless

29:12

you've just done a fuck ton of work

29:14

, in which case you're probably not

29:16

listening to us anyways , um

29:19

, we're

29:22

not .

29:23

What are these two chicks talking about ?

29:25

like I don't , yeah so

29:28

Like

29:30

, and here's why the

29:34

reaction is almost

29:36

always a I don't

29:39

want this , right , the awareness

29:41

of like what I was saying before , right , here

29:43

are all the things I know that I don't want

29:45

. Yeah , and that

29:48

means that it's based

29:50

on present circumstances

29:52

, right , rather than being

29:55

based on what it is

29:57

you truly want for yourself

29:59

. Okay , so the

30:02

actual , the desires

30:05

that Could spur

30:07

an entirely new life for you are

30:10

More like what you were talking

30:12

about , where people know they really

30:15

want something , but , like they

30:17

can't even get themselves to say it out loud . Or like

30:19

what would everybody think about them wanting

30:21

to sell the house and move

30:23

, you know , to

30:25

the middle of the pacific

30:28

Ocean ? Right , like ? What

30:30

is it that you can't

30:33

get yourself To acknowledge

30:35

? Because it's not rooted

30:38

in your present reality , right ? So

30:41

the other I mean the

30:43

, the easy way to do this is

30:45

just keep asking why , right

30:47

, so , like I want to make

30:50

X amount of dollars

30:52

, okay

30:56

, why ? Well , because I want

30:58

to buy these things . Or Simon's like

31:00

, yes

31:03

, but

31:06

the point is that

31:09

you're either going to

31:11

if you ask why , say 20

31:13

times , you're either

31:15

going to See

31:18

that you're doing it because

31:20

you're trying to avoid something

31:22

that you don't want , which could

31:25

just be like the judgment of

31:27

my deceased grandmother . Right

31:29

Doesn't have to make sense . I

31:32

don't want to Look

31:34

inferior to random people

31:37

onto the internet , whatever right

31:39

doesn't have to be logical , mom

31:41

, but there's something that we don't

31:43

want , or you're gonna get

31:45

so annoyed with asking yourself

31:48

why over and over , because

31:50

the actual answer is like cuz , I just do , I

31:52

just want it , this is just what I

31:54

want , okay . And Then

31:58

you know like okay , this

32:00

is actually what comes next

32:02

.

32:11

Yeah , it's

32:14

interesting I Still

32:17

feel there a lot of people struggling

32:20

with this is just

32:22

what I fucking want . So , like

32:24

it is mm-hmm . And

32:27

then again again close , went to

32:30

like our Receptions

32:33

of roles . Right , like I mean , I'm

32:35

a responsible mother , for example , I cannot

32:37

move , sell our house and move into the middle of the fucking

32:40

Pacific because , yeah , I

32:42

also like to see myself as a responsible

32:44

mother and I don't know , I

32:46

drive Self-worth out

32:48

of my mother-in-law seeing me as a set

32:50

responsible mother , right , like , yes

32:53

, yes , so how

32:55

I ? I mean

32:57

when

33:00

someone is earlier on

33:02

in their stage . Right , when we still need

33:04

to talk about building

33:07

self-trust in

33:09

yourself more and more and more

33:11

and becoming more resilient in

33:14

certain

33:17

endeavors , and then ways of thinking , how

33:21

do we navigate these ? Almost

33:23

kind of like we're

33:27

getting pulled into different directions

33:29

.

33:31

So what you just said about

33:33

, like , let's take the responsible mother

33:36

example , right , obviously

33:40

, if that was your thing , then

33:42

you're not comfortable killing

33:44

off that identity

33:47

, right ? Like , no , I do in

33:49

fact want to be a responsible mother , and

33:51

so then the question is , by

33:54

whose definition ? Right ? So

33:57

, understanding for

33:59

yourself , what is my definition

34:01

of that versus what is the one that

34:04

I was told

34:06

to believe ? Right , what

34:09

are the facets of responsible

34:12

parenting or adulting

34:14

, or ? A lot of business

34:17

owners want to , like , be smart or

34:19

look like they're doing the right thing , right

34:22

? What

34:24

are the aspects of that that you

34:26

actually care about ? That you actually

34:28

agree with A lot of times , like

34:31

, we haven't decided for ourselves

34:33

. What is that

34:35

look like ? If I'm going to show up that

34:37

way and because

34:40

, for instance , to your example , your

34:43

mother-in-law has a different definition of

34:45

what a responsible mother might say

34:47

, oh yeah , she sure does , right , and

34:54

that's fine , right ? So

34:56

then the question would be okay

34:58

, how do I navigate

35:00

the discomfort of my

35:02

definition and her definition not

35:05

being 100% aligned

35:08

? Right , there's probably some overlap

35:10

, but how do I

35:13

navigate that , my

35:15

discomfort , my inability

35:17

to own ? Well , this is what

35:20

, good enough , looks like to me , and

35:22

I'm gonna let you feel uncomfortable

35:25

with my good enough not being

35:27

your definition of good enough , right

35:29

? How do I

35:32

manage the consequences of that ? What

35:34

happens if she calls me now three

35:36

times a day and says I can't believe you

35:38

took my grandson to the middle of the Pacific

35:40

, right ? What do we do

35:42

if good

35:46

analogies were not guaranteed ? Okay , I

35:48

did not come onto the show . We

35:50

say a good analogy guarantee .

35:52

I'd say it works like . I'd say it works

35:55

Like I mean but

35:59

like , how do we show

36:01

ourselves ?

36:03

This is kind of the mental part , right . It's like

36:05

, okay , once I've

36:07

clarified what my

36:10

versions of those identities

36:12

are not the conditioned versions how

36:15

do I mentally

36:17

show

36:20

myself that I can handle ie

36:24

own my definition

36:26

of that and allow everyone

36:28

else to be uncomfortable with whatever

36:31

that may be . If you are

36:33

still feeling some kind

36:35

of way right About some

36:37

identity that you have , it's because

36:39

you don't fully own it , you

36:42

have not fully stepped into

36:44

, like this is who I am

36:46

, this is how I show up , this

36:48

is what's important to me , this

36:50

is what I care about , right ? And

36:53

any place where you're thrown

36:55

off by somebody's line of questioning

36:57

or you're thrown off by

36:59

somebody's accusations or

37:01

judgments or whatever that

37:04

is showing you I am

37:06

not fully confident

37:08

in what it is I've decided

37:11

to be or how it is that I've decided to

37:13

show up , or what it is I have decided

37:15

is important , right . And I would encourage

37:18

you at that point to go back

37:20

and say what do I really care about

37:22

and why ? Right ? And

37:25

why am I maybe different from

37:27

the things that I was conditioned to care

37:29

about and why do

37:32

I know that what I have decided

37:34

is better for me right . And

37:37

when you have answers to those

37:39

questions , when you know that what

37:41

you are doing is actually what's

37:43

best for you , it does not matter

37:45

, like the Pope , the president

37:48

, your favorite rabbi , whoever

37:50

can come and ask you all kinds of questions

37:52

about why you're doing what you're doing , and you're

37:54

gonna be like because I am right

37:57

and you won't be wavering that , yes

38:00

, right . And

38:04

then , just as

38:06

rooted and grounded

38:08

as you're gonna have to be in that identity

38:10

in order to move forward , you

38:13

have to have that knowledge in the back of

38:15

your head that at some point you're gonna

38:17

have to let go of it just as much

38:19

as you stepped into it , right

38:22

? And at some point , like Roundhog

38:24

Day , being a responsible maul

38:26

is not going to work , yeah , and

38:28

you'll have to decide again like , okay , how

38:31

do I show up now ?

38:35

I'm curious . So you said , yeah , like we

38:38

have to let it go . There's

38:41

always a cycle where we have to let it go . How

38:45

can we differentiate

38:48

between letting

38:51

go and giving

38:53

up ? You

38:56

know , I the

38:58

okay . This

39:01

is the podcast where Ches always just said why

39:03

.

39:06

But I mean , it's kind

39:09

of the thing , right

39:11

, because why

39:14

are you let's call

39:16

it releasing to be neutral , right ? Okay

39:19

, yes , is it because you can

39:21

no longer continue

39:24

in the vein that you've been going ? You

39:27

perceive that you do not have the strength or

39:30

the resilience , or you are tired

39:32

or whatever ? Right , that might be giving

39:34

up , right ? Or is it because

39:37

this is no longer getting

39:39

me where it is ? I want to go ? This

39:43

is so again , like

39:45

, is it rooted in what we don't want or

39:47

is it rooted in what we do want ? When it's rooted

39:49

in , I'm tired and I

39:51

just don't wanna fight anymore . That's probably giving

39:54

up . And

39:56

here's the thing . I'm not saying to keep pushing . When you're tired , I'm

40:01

saying get to my place

40:03

where you can say yes , where

40:05

you can say what I want right

40:08

now is to rest . What

40:10

I want is to deeply nourish my body and

40:12

my brain and my spirit

40:15

from like , giving and giving and giving and fighting

40:17

and fighting and fighting , and

40:19

I'm going to let myself rest and recover

40:21

so that I can then

40:24

focus on growth again . That

40:26

is maybe letting go

40:28

, right ? Is your orientation

40:31

towards what you do want , or is your

40:33

orientation towards , here's

40:36

, what I can't handle anymore ?

40:42

And what in those hopefully

40:45

rare circumstances where

40:48

you're in

40:52

the midst of letting go and

40:54

your ego is like bitch , you're just

40:56

giving up . That

41:00

that's so , then bugger in your head .

41:03

Yeah . So then my question

41:05

is why are you holding onto

41:08

the identity of being resilient ? Why

41:10

are you holding onto being hanging

41:12

onto the identity of like we never

41:15

give up right ? Why

41:17

are you hanging onto the identity

41:19

of like , the person who can always push

41:21

through and figure it out right

41:24

?

41:25

What is it giving me ? What is it

41:27

giving myself ? Yes

41:30

, so

41:34

it kind of like we really have

41:36

to look at how

41:39

our past beliefs

41:41

, identities , impact

41:43

our sense of self now and

41:50

also in the future .

41:53

Yes , and

41:58

there's only assessing

42:01

where you are right now . So

42:05

I was just talking to an executive

42:07

coaching client about this

42:09

last week and I called it either go or

42:11

grow , right . And sometimes

42:14

we just have to go right . We

42:16

have to like , just like life requires

42:18

us to keep like . I can't just

42:20

not make dinner for my kids , right . I can't just like

42:22

decide that I'm going to check out of motherhood

42:25

for six months because there's still too little for

42:27

that Not that I'll

42:29

probably ever be able to but

42:33

or are we in like a grow phase ? Yeah , yeah , it's

42:35

the thing , right ? If you would want to , you

42:37

would have checked out right now

42:39

. I could ? Yes , right and

42:44

a grow phase is like

42:46

I can actively , I

42:48

have the capacity right now

42:50

to actively move forward , right ? So

42:53

am I just like in maintenance mode and

42:55

like , is it a time you'll find

42:57

that battle now or yeah

43:00

, maybe not Right ? And

43:03

so like being aware of that in the present moment , like

43:07

what do I actually have capacity for right now ? We

43:10

don't have capacity for everything all

43:12

the time , and sometimes that changes by the

43:14

half hour , right , and

43:17

sometimes it changes over six months , right

43:19

. What may have worked six

43:21

months ago in your life or business

43:23

may be completely irrelevant to this point

43:26

. And

43:29

then you marry that with what am

43:32

I stepping into and

43:38

what does that stepping into require me

43:41

to let go of ?

43:41

Because one thing is certain , right it

43:44

will always require you to let go of something

43:46

like . You're not going to be able to do that . You

43:48

have to let go of something like , as we said

43:50

, like what will get you this far

43:52

, will not let you like , will

43:54

probably not bring you where you want to go , right

43:57

, I'm curious once

44:00

. I don't know we should do a short game

44:02

on how many times I said I'm curious .

44:07

Please don't play , I know please don't

44:09

.

44:09

We're like Do not play , like in

44:11

Drive or when you're in a car listening

44:13

to this podcast , all into disclaimers . Okay , so

44:18

one . I'm

44:21

sure you get a lot of clients who are

44:23

like walks you and

44:25

they're like , okay , I've managed

44:27

to let something go . And

44:30

now this happened and

44:32

they may or may not realize

44:35

they're kind of like falling back into old

44:37

patterns or old attachments , like

44:40

sure , how

44:43

, what are ? Are they like

44:45

the biggest pitfalls ? Is

44:47

there something like that that makes make people like

44:50

fall back into old patterns and or

44:53

old attachments ? And

44:55

how can we I don't know can we

44:57

see them coming ? Can

45:01

we prevent them ? Okay , I'll have them

45:03

at this point . So that

45:05

really , that's really what you're asking yeah

45:08

, I'm an Enneagram 7 . So obviously I want to know

45:10

how to walk the pain .

45:12

Yes , Um

45:14

, I mean , when you were asking your first

45:16

question , there is , like , I think

45:18

, the thing there is to not think of it as a pitfall

45:21

. Um , it's

45:24

, it's not . There's

45:26

the thing you'll need to learn . Well

45:29

, yeah , no , I don't flower Like

45:32

no , there's enough sugarcoating shit

45:35

with me either . Okay , sometimes

45:37

we do stupid things , that's fair . Um

45:39

, but what

45:43

I would say is you can't

45:45

unlearn . There

45:47

is no unlearning , right

45:49

? So you reach

45:52

a new level of awareness , you

45:54

have a new layer of understanding

45:56

of what it is you want , yeah , okay

45:58

, and then you never

46:00

, kind of like , fall back to the old world

46:03

. There's no , no , you

46:05

can't . It's literally not

46:07

possible .

46:09

Sure , I'm relieved . Okay

46:12

, I mean so . It's not like . I

46:14

mean . Yeah , even when you're playing

46:16

, like I don't know , Super Mario , you're not going

46:19

to go back to the start , start , but you have like

46:21

a like a default safe somewhere in between

46:23

. Yes , yes

46:26

, that's an olge .

46:27

So , yeah , but

46:29

I mean it's a good one , right

46:31

, because , like , you might do

46:34

some over , right

46:36

? Uh , here's a

46:38

strange sense of deja vu . I've been here

46:40

before , I've had these thoughts before

46:42

, I have worked through this shit

46:45

before I have talked with my coach . I did this

46:47

before , got it . I sent her this

46:49

message six months ago , right , um

46:52

, and . But that's not

46:54

unlearning . That

46:57

is applying something

46:59

that you learned earlier

47:01

to a deeper level , that you

47:03

weren't aware of at the time , right

47:06

? So , like we all have areas

47:09

where it's easier for us to grow

47:11

first , like

47:13

I think of this . Like the way that caterpillars

47:15

move , you know , they kind of like they

47:18

stick out their front and

47:20

you don't do bugs and then , but then they

47:22

like pick up their butt and it

47:24

scrooches to catch up , right , and they're

47:26

kind of bent in half and then they have

47:28

to stick out the front again . There's

47:30

always a leading edge that moves

47:33

first . They don't like walk like

47:35

ants , right , where it's like all together , right

47:37

, and . And so there's

47:39

the piece of you that moves first

47:41

that is easier to grow

47:43

first , a place where it's easier to shed

47:46

an identity first , right , where you

47:48

don't have much attachment to how

47:50

you're seen or how you're perceived . And

47:54

then you probably have that area of

47:56

how you show up where

47:58

it's just always lagging

48:01

and like this is probably the thing

48:03

you're always rehashing in therapy

48:05

or with your , your coach or something yeah , it's going

48:07

to be a fair life and yes , right

48:10

, and that is the ass end of the caterpillar

48:12

, that , just like the

48:14

front end has gone , it has moved on

48:16

, and you just have

48:19

to say , okay , like the rest of us is coming

48:21

with now , right , but it's not like

48:23

you don't know where you're going . The

48:26

hardest time

48:28

to make a transition is the first time

48:30

, right , the hardest time to shed an

48:32

identity is the first time , because

48:34

we're stepping into something theoretically

48:37

unknown . Right , you've , you've let go

48:39

of an identity , but you haven't fully stepped

48:42

into the next one and

48:44

the next time . So your bum

48:46

is hanging around like the caterpillar . Yes

48:49

, exactly . And

48:52

so the subsequent times

48:54

when you see this come around , you

48:56

can start to notice the patterns of like

48:59

oh , every time that

49:01

I wonder if I'm being smart in

49:03

my business , it shows

49:05

up like this , and actually what I just

49:08

need to do is whatever the

49:10

flip sounds fun , right , oh

49:12

, I did this thing again around

49:15

motherhood , or I wind

49:18

up my partner about this again . We

49:21

had this fight again , right

49:23

? And every time

49:25

it's actually about

49:28

XYZ . And how

49:30

quickly can I allow myself

49:32

to be like , oh right , that's that

49:34

thing that I used to do . That's

49:36

not how I show up anymore , right

49:38

? And you have some basis

49:41

then for making the transition

49:43

, because you've already done it in some areas

49:45

of your life . So it's not . There is no going

49:47

backwards , right ? Please insert

49:50

my Instagram post of the spiral

49:52

here , like there's no going

49:54

backward .

49:55

Oh , yeah , yeah , yes , that's a good one

49:57

. Yeah , I

49:59

think we're probably quick to forget that

50:02

, that

50:05

we're actually cannot go

50:07

back that moment

50:09

, how we were

50:11

in that moment . Everything about

50:13

that moment , it's gone . I

50:20

mean , for me it was when I really

50:22

came into acceptance of

50:24

this and , like somatic

50:27

knowing of this , it

50:31

was a big fucking relief . Yeah

50:35

, like , yes

50:37

, Fuck

50:40

, like it was just yeah , there

50:42

was so much liberation

50:44

that came with that and

50:48

I'm like , oh , you , you got to , you got to have

50:50

to experience this because this is great . Yes

50:53

, so

50:57

that was one of the first

50:59

times when I was like , oh , now

51:02

I see , now I'm , I am lucky

51:04

enough to experience the payoff

51:06

of like mindset work , because

51:08

this shit is working and it's hard and

51:10

the I don't know the successes

51:13

there they're not always so

51:15

like tangible and palatable .

51:17

No .

51:18

And when they are , you're like , whoa

51:20

, okay , now I get what people do . Yes

51:27

, which I said , yeah

51:29

, I mean , which was essential , because again , in diagram

51:31

seven , I don't want to

51:34

do , I do not have the patience for this . No

51:36

, no , no , I'm like , okay

51:39

, go to go . Yep , this

51:44

is very cheesy , but I can I say

51:46

now in the spirit of I got a goal , we

51:49

got a goal . So

51:51

, oh

51:53

, dear Lord , I had a very nice segue . I had , I

51:55

had , yeah , no , I had , I had better moments

51:57

, but hey , I mean , their days were

51:59

a surprise myself . And then they're other . Where

52:03

can people find you , jess , if they want to

52:05

know more , we're definitely going to link the

52:08

spiral Instagram post and

52:10

we got to link your Instagram because you have a lot

52:13

of other shitty mindset drawings , all courtesy

52:15

of your own , I do . Where

52:18

can people find you ?

52:20

Instagram is good . My handle

52:22

there is I am Jess E Lee

52:25

E L E Y or

52:27

otherwise , just my website Jessica E Lee dot

52:29

com .

52:31

One final question before I let you off the book . What

52:34

book are you currently reading or what audio book

52:36

are you listening to ?

52:39

Oh , this is a good question . Wait

52:41

, what did I need ? Oh no , I

52:44

won't have the fast answer . I

52:47

just finished listening . Well

52:51

, I'm always low key , listening to

52:53

the power of now . That's kind

52:56

of my turn

52:58

it on over and over book . And

53:01

right now , honestly , I'm listening to a bunch

53:04

of books on like homeschooling

53:09

, unschooling , preschooling

53:11

and

53:13

things like OT , retain , primitive

53:16

reflexes , like all

53:18

this stuff . That is like the

53:22

even lower , deeper level

53:25

than mindset work to

53:27

work on with my

53:29

kids , but also like to catch

53:31

in clients and be like maybe you

53:33

should go see somebody about XYZ

53:36

.

53:39

Sorry , I didn't catch that quite . What's that

53:41

called ? What's the word of mindset work ?

53:44

Well , so for instance , like retained primitive

53:46

reflexes right , I've

53:49

got my kids doing all kinds of wonky exercises

53:52

.

53:55

It's my favorite exercise that we can do too .

53:59

Starfish are great starfish like

54:01

where you stick your arms out

54:04

and legs out and you gas

54:06

right over left the first time

54:08

and then you stretch your arms out again

54:10

and then you do left over right .

54:13

Oh yeah .

54:14

Okay , but your legs go too . Yes

54:16

, yeah , yeah , yeah .

54:18

Oh yeah , okay , when

54:22

should I go ? Try this , that'd

54:24

be interesting . There you go . We

54:27

also serve you with a content idea for Reels or

54:29

TikTok . There you go . There you have it . Yes , yes

54:31

.

54:32

Excellent .

54:34

Thank you so much for being on the Stimigrood with

54:36

me . Again Thanks for

54:38

having me .