0:42

Having set up and run a natural skincare

0:44

business while living with several chronic illnesses

0:46

like POTS , ehlers-danlos

0:49

, emmy and Chronic Sa rah

0:51

Berthon , quickly realized that she needed

0:54

to put strategies in place to not

0:56

only look after her business but also

0:58

her health . She realized that there was a need

1:00

for others to learn the same techniques , and

1:02

so Excel Against the Odds was born

1:04

. She offers one-to-one mentoring

1:06

workshops also three Facebook

1:09

group entrepreneurs against the odds . She

1:11

shares her techniques and strategies with anyone

1:13

who runs a business and wants to look after their

1:15

well-being . She is also a fellow

1:18

podcaster with Excel Against

1:20

the Odds , sharing tips , advice and inspirational

1:22

stories about running a business while looking after

1:24

your health . Working with organizations to advise

1:26

them on better supporting employees with chronic

1:29

illnesses is her next project . Excel

1:31

Against the Odds was chosen to be part of the

1:33

Small Biz 100 in 2021

1:35

. Sarah , welcome to the Saint-Egaroo

1:37

podcast .

1:39

Thank you , Jennifer , and thank you for inviting me on your podcast

1:41

.

1:42

Yay , I'm so excited . How

1:44

are you today ?

1:46

I'm good , thank you , and how are you ?

1:48

Yeah , I'm actually I don't

1:51

know it was . It's kind of

1:53

like one of those days where I'm like everything is

1:55

going smooth , so I have to stop

1:57

my mind from like fault

1:59

picking , like where's something wrong

2:02

? I just have to peel or scratch here

2:04

until I find something that's wrong . I was just like no

2:06

, we're

2:08

going with a 2023 vibe of

2:10

just like no , we're

2:13

going to be chill about this . Now . That's

2:16

good , but

2:18

you know , do you know what I mean ? Like is that

2:21

kind of like ? It's kind of like too good to be true

2:24

, or something like you know .

2:25

Yeah , exactly , sometimes it feels like things

2:27

are going too smoothly , something's going to trip up at some

2:29

points , but it doesn't have to be

2:32

that way .

2:33

No , no , it does not Absolutely

2:35

. I have 100% agree . So

2:37

, but before we kind of like go

2:39

deeper into conversation , Sarah

2:41

, can you please briefly

2:43

walk us through your story , Like

2:46

give us an idea who you are , how

2:49

you got , how you started , how you

2:51

started with your business , how you got where you're today

2:53

? Like the elevator

2:55

pitch , the pivotal crossroads , they're

2:57

always starting with you , Absolutely .

3:01

So I am in my 20s

3:03

and early 30s . I

3:05

had a great career as a management

3:07

consultant , working in IT , traveling

3:10

around the world , partying

3:12

, working hard , traveling

3:14

everywhere , and it was great

3:16

. And then , slowly , it started

3:18

to crumble and my health

3:20

started to really get in

3:22

the way . At first I thought it was just I wasn't coping

3:24

with the first place . Eventually

3:28

I became aware that it

3:30

wasn't normal . I had to ask people speaking

3:33

to friends and saying do you find that your legs

3:36

and arms ache at all the time , as if you've

3:38

been running a marathon ? And they're like , no , they

3:40

don't . Oh , okay , maybe

3:42

there is something that's quite right with me . And

3:44

after that I probably had a good

3:47

eight , 10 years of visiting doctors trying

3:50

to work out what was going wrong . I

3:52

eventually got diagnosed with

3:54

ME , which is known

3:56

as chronic Tegh syndrome , and as

3:58

a result of that , I lost my career . I could no

4:01

longer work the hours that were expected

4:03

, I couldn't travel and

4:05

I spent the next three months in bed , not

4:08

being able to really do much at all . I

4:13

had a family , eventually got back to my feet , to

4:15

a part-time job , but I always had this

4:17

urge to do something more and I started

4:19

doing my own business . I set up a business making

4:22

skincare . I made

4:24

skincare kits bath bomb

4:27

and lip balm kits for children so they could make their own

4:29

skincare using natural , vegan ingredients

4:31

or eco-friendly , and started running

4:33

parties . But I

4:35

was running a business as I would have

4:37

worked in my old life and

4:39

I went in full throttle . And

4:43

then my pivotal moment came

4:45

the first Christmas after I launched

4:47

and I was getting

4:49

ready for Christmas fair and putting all

4:51

my efforts into it . I

4:53

already had one frozen shoulder and

4:55

as a result of it , of all the repetitive

4:57

movement and pushing myself too hard , I

4:59

ended up with a second painful , really

5:02

, really painful shoulder . The point I couldn't

5:04

even get myself dressed . I had to go to the hospital with

5:06

my pyjamas to get it checked out because I thought I dislocated

5:08

my shoulder . I still

5:10

pushed myself through the Christmas fair the next day but

5:13

, completely in pain , lost

5:15

my medication and I promised myself

5:17

that I would not do that again , and

5:20

so I had to sort of reassess how I

5:22

was running my business and run it in a way that

5:24

was chronic illness friendly

5:26

. I took a look

5:28

to see if anything was out there , anybody who

5:30

could support me in my journey , and I couldn't

5:32

find anybody . So I

5:35

set about sorting it out myself and I set up a group

5:37

for people with chronic

5:39

illnesses who run their own business the entrepreneurs against

5:41

the odds Facebook group . And

5:44

just having those people in my base

5:47

just meant that I wasn't alone anymore

5:49

. People understood

5:52

what I was going through and I

5:54

understood what they were going through . So it was like a mutually

5:56

supportive group and I learned

5:58

ways to run my business

6:00

in a way that was chronic illness friendly

6:03

. So things around how

6:05

to find the best strategy , how to

6:07

prioritise my work , how to get

6:09

as much done in a short amount of time as possible

6:12

because when you have a chronic illness you're quite

6:14

limited in your time and from that I

6:16

started running workshop and doing

6:18

mentoring , and

6:20

I also am now supporting organisations

6:23

who want to better support their employees with chronic

6:25

illness as well , because that was something that I found was

6:28

missing when I first was

6:30

diagnosed with a chronic illness . One

6:32

step I messed along the way is the fact that actually I

6:35

have been since been diagnosed with other conditions

6:37

. I'm not personally not convinced

6:39

I had chronic fatigue syndrome

6:42

, because I've since been diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos

6:44

syndrome and POTS syndrome

6:46

as well . So that might it might

6:49

be that I do have ME as well , but who knows

6:51

? So yeah , I've , since

6:53

. It took about 16 years , I think , from

6:55

first symptoms to getting diagnosed

6:57

with POTS and and Ehlers-Danlos , so

7:00

it's been a long journey .

7:02

Yeah , I can so relate Geez

7:06

, it's there's always . I

7:08

mean , yeah , well , first off , like

7:10

congratulations on

7:13

, like putting

7:15

yourself through

7:17

all of the

7:20

medical labyrinth

7:23

and mad ways of the

7:25

system , because I know

7:27

it's really , really tough . It

7:31

took me , it took me , I don't

7:33

know 25 years to

7:35

get to

7:37

get like . Then the metroses

7:39

, diagnosis , and just kind of like an

7:41

idea of like , oh , actually , no

7:44

, yeah , thank you for all the times you told me to do

7:46

yoga or eat more healthy

7:49

. Thank you very much . So

7:52

, and kind of like , yeah , do and doing

7:54

something with it and I'd let you know like , like

7:57

, actually like , okay , this is like

8:00

this chronic illness is it ? I

8:03

don't know it's , it's my weakness and

8:05

it's also my strength kind of like really turning it

8:07

around and be like , hey , actually , what can I do with

8:09

it ? Like , I don't just want to like

8:12

like wigg by to life

8:14

, but how can I like , what can I do with

8:16

it ? And I'm

8:19

really , yeah , I'm really excited to

8:21

go

8:23

into like how , maybe

8:26

first , how we , how

8:29

we can take better care of ourselves

8:31

as entrepreneurs with

8:34

chronic illnesses . And also

8:36

, really , I'm really curious

8:38

on you said one

8:40

of the things is really we're short on time or

8:43

we just don't have as much hours that

8:45

we feel like we're producing

8:47

our best outcome , but at

8:50

the same time , we there's

8:52

like this uncertainty

8:55

. Right , you get up in the morning and you're like it's

8:58

not a good day today . So

9:00

how you work with that ? Where

9:02

you like , where you don't know Can

9:05

you , can you perform what you want

9:07

to perform the next day , or not , like how

9:09

? How do you work with that uncertainty

9:12

level ? I'm

9:15

really curious about all

9:17

of those like strategies you

9:19

got . And

9:22

then we can also maybe briefly talk about

9:24

how businesses

9:27

or how we as

9:30

, let's say

9:32

, entrepreneurs , when we hire

9:34

people with chronic illnesses

9:36

, like copywriters or other service

9:38

providers , how can we make

9:40

sure they we provide

9:43

a safe environment ? I

9:45

feel that's also very important

9:48

because , I don't know , I get the impression

9:50

that a lot of entrepreneur

9:54

, like a lot of people with chronic illness , have chosen

9:56

that path because the corporate route

9:58

is just not sustainable at all in

10:01

the current climate . So

10:04

I'm really curious about that . So

10:06

how did you , kind of like start

10:10

to take

10:12

better care of yourself

10:15

in regards to your business ?

10:19

First thing that I do for myself and

10:21

I recommend for clients is to start thinking

10:23

about putting your well being first and

10:25

then netting your business . Bit around

10:27

that . If you aren't looking

10:29

after yourself , then your business is going to really

10:31

suffer . So most people , when they're starting

10:33

a business , will put their business first and

10:36

then they'll say I don't have time to

10:38

look after myself , I don't have time to do the things that

10:40

bring me joy . And I think it's really important

10:42

to switch that round and really start putting yourself

10:44

first . Write

10:46

a list of all the things that you want

10:48

to do for your health and all the things that

10:50

bring you joy , and then make sure that you're

10:53

picking and choosing and putting those into your

10:55

diary before you do anything else with your

10:57

business . So if you have

10:59

non negotiables exercise , getting

11:01

out in nature , getting that rest , maybe

11:03

having an afternoon nap put that in

11:05

your diary first and then plan everything

11:07

else in your business around that . I

11:11

think if you can do things that bring you

11:13

joy , then you're going to increase your energy levels

11:15

, and energy is something that's always a problem

11:17

when you have an energy limiting

11:20

issue , such as the chronic

11:22

illness . So if you can find ways to

11:24

raise your energy . If you can find

11:26

ways to make yourself smile in the morning , treat

11:29

your cup to the outside or have

11:32

a chat with the best friends , that can raise

11:34

your energy levels and that can then really help

11:36

. So it's about putting yourself

11:38

first and not feeling guilty . For that . I think

11:40

so many of us particularly

11:42

women , I think- raising a good point about

11:45

putting ourselves first , and yet everybody

11:49

else around us will benefit if we do

11:51

that as well . So our families

11:53

, our children , our friends will

11:55

benefit if we start prioritising our own

11:57

wellbeing . We can then be there for

11:59

them a lot more as well . And , as I said

12:01

, our business is going to really flourish if

12:04

we look after ourselves . So it's remembering

12:06

those key points about what

12:08

does make a difference to our health , and I

12:11

really do think it's important to start listening to your

12:13

body as well . So if you're having

12:15

niggles or if there's things that

12:17

you need , so if there's a bit of food that

12:19

you feel that you really need to eat , then listen

12:21

to your body and what it's trying to tell

12:23

you . I know that if I'm sitting

12:25

at a screen too long , I might start getting pain

12:28

in my eyes or my shoulders might start

12:30

aching , and I know that that is a message from my

12:32

body to me that if I don't listen

12:35

and react to it , then I'm going

12:37

to really suffer for it later . So

12:39

again , I know that sometimes it's very hard

12:42

to step away from your death when you're working

12:44

on something , but if your body is telling

12:46

you that's what you need to do , then you do kind of need to take

12:48

heed of that , and

12:50

that will mean that later in the day

12:52

or the next day you'll actually be able to do a lot more than if

12:54

you try and persevere and then end up

12:56

with a migraine or in severe pain . So

12:59

it's really hard and it's all about

13:01

acceptance . It's accepting that you

13:03

do have limitations but you can

13:06

. If you do prioritise

13:08

your wellbeing and listen to your body , you

13:10

can adapt and

13:13

you can still get a lot done as well . I find

13:15

that if I have a day when I'm sitting in front

13:17

of my computer for eight hours solid , I

13:20

can procrastinate quite easily and

13:22

I can get distracted and end

13:24

up not particularly achieving loads . And

13:27

there are days when I might

13:30

be having just an hour or 20 minutes

13:32

or two hours and suddenly

13:34

, because that's focus time , I can

13:36

actually get a lot more done than if I was

13:38

sitting in front of my computer for eight hours . And

13:41

I do recommend that if somebody is going to sit down

13:43

just for a small amount of time , knowing exactly

13:46

what they're going to work on , before

13:48

you sit down , have a little goal in your

13:50

mind . What do I want to achieve in this ?

13:51

super early time that's got available . You've already done it right . So

13:53

like the task on a post-it or something , really

13:56

something small that fits on a small post-it and

13:59

be like okay , that's what I want to do and

14:01

the allocated amount of time .

14:03

Exactly and do that before you actually sit down at your desk

14:05

. Because if you sit down at your desk without actually knowing

14:08

what you're going to do , you'll end up doing

14:10

anything that's in front of you , you'll get distracted

14:12

by website or whatever . But if you actually

14:14

, before you sit down , write that on your post-it , put

14:16

it on your computer , then you're going to get a lot

14:19

more done as well . So

14:21

I think that obviously we

14:23

have less time , as if you have

14:25

a chronic illness and because you do have to take

14:27

more care of your health and you might not have enough

14:30

energy to work 10 miles of hours . But

14:33

I do think you can achieve so much in a short

14:35

amount of time if you're focused

14:37

and have an idea of what you want to

14:39

work on .

14:41

Yeah , absolutely . And also , to be really

14:44

clear , that really helped me to really

14:46

focus on , okay , what

14:48

is a task that is

14:50

absolutely crucial that I do

14:53

perform this task ? There's no way I

14:55

can delegate that or outsource that or whatever

14:57

. This is something I have to do as

14:59

kind of like the queen bee of this operation

15:01

. And what can

15:04

I outsource ? What can I ask for

15:06

help ? What are the tasks that need

15:09

to get done or should get done

15:11

? But it's not crucial that I

15:13

do them and

15:15

then either find like

15:18

get help , like hire

15:20

someone , or

15:22

realize , okay , this is

15:24

just not getting done today and

15:28

being cool with that too , right , like , if it's

15:30

not a crucial

15:32

queen bee task , it

15:34

can wait .

15:36

Yeah , and I think we find , if we actually probably

15:38

studied what we sort of pressures

15:40

we're putting on ourselves , some tasks

15:42

you don't actually need to do them . They

15:44

can . There's a lot of things that you want

15:47

to do but don't necessarily move in your

15:49

towards your goal , but you feel like you should do them because

15:52

that's what everyone does . And

15:54

there's also the tasks that we

15:56

do set ourselves . It's only

15:58

obviously we've got client tasks , which are different

16:00

, but a lot of the tasks that we set ourselves are

16:03

it's ourselves putting pressure and

16:05

giving ourselves a deadline , it's nobody

16:07

else . So if they do slip a few days , it's

16:09

not the end of the world . And again

16:12

, it's accepting that it's not a failure if

16:14

you don't complete your to-do list . It's

16:17

being accepting that it doesn't

16:19

matter If you set yourself

16:21

a launch in a month time and it takes a month and

16:23

a half , it doesn't matter . That was

16:25

your deadline and

16:28

it can move . So have that flexibility

16:30

. And I think your question earlier

16:32

around , when you wake up and you don't have

16:34

the energy to do something , it's

16:36

understanding that and knowing that

16:38

you have to have some flexibility in

16:40

your diary and

16:42

know that certain days you can't do certain tasks

16:44

. So I know that if

16:47

I'm coming down with a migraine I certainly can't be doing

16:49

anything . That's gonna require a lot

16:51

of focus . But that's a good day for

16:53

me to do some more

16:56

relaxing ideas and after I get my best ideas when

16:58

I'm actually relaxing and

17:00

letting my mind think or I might have

17:02

some jobs that I can just do by just sort

17:05

of more menial jobs that I can get done when

17:07

my headache's not too bad . So it's sort

17:09

of having a flexible

17:11

approach and knowing what sort of energy you've got

17:13

and what's how much that energy

17:16

, and then making sure you've got plenty of white

17:18

space in your diary where , if something

17:20

doesn't fit you've got . I know all Friday

17:22

afternoon you've got nothing planned in I can do

17:24

some catch up tasks that need to get done so

17:27

you're not going to beat yourself up or not completing

17:29

any work .

17:32

Yeah , that's a really good point . To kind of like

17:34

I mean , a always plan with

17:36

plenty of white space . I mean that's a good I don't

17:39

know that's a good advice anyway , regardless if you're

17:41

suffering from a chronic illness

17:43

or not . Just to kind of like , have that reading

17:46

periods , because we need that . Our brain

17:49

doesn't . We're

17:52

not productive right now . I

17:55

mean that's a corporate . Yeah , like

17:57

, I don't know , that's not gonna happen . And

18:00

also , yeah , of what

18:02

you said right , like maybe if you're

18:05

planning something like

18:07

a launch of

18:09

a new service or a new product and

18:12

you divide it into all the little

18:15

endless tasks that you want to do

18:17

, maybe you also color

18:19

code them by energy and

18:22

level involvement . Like I

18:24

mean , that is obviously gonna depend

18:27

. It's different for everyone , but for

18:29

me I know , okay

18:31

, like actually showing up for

18:33

, like , an Instagram live , that's high energy , that

18:35

I really need to be well , do

18:38

that . But doing

18:41

things like the graphic

18:43

design of things or the

18:45

Pinterest templates , instagram templates , all

18:47

those sorts of things , I can do that

18:49

when I'm low energy because that's I've

18:53

been doing graphic design for over I

18:55

don't know 20 years . Like that's just easy

18:58

. So you

19:00

really kind of like , go through the tasks and

19:03

color code them Might

19:05

be a good hack as well . To know

19:07

, okay , today is like

19:09

I don't know , an energy code blue

19:11

kind of day and

19:14

pick something of that list . So

19:16

you're still moving towards where you

19:18

want to go , but

19:20

knowing , okay , I

19:23

don't know , green and yellow are not gonna happen

19:25

today .

19:27

Yeah , the thing is , sometimes you have courage Generally

19:30

for feeling well , you might have courage to contact people , and

19:33

on other days you just want to be a bit more introverted

19:35

, and that's a different type of energy

19:38

as well . You want to just do more reading and studying

19:40

. So , I think , trying to understand

19:42

your energy levels and maybe track them and

19:44

then , as you say , apply that to

19:46

your to-do list using different colors , that's

19:49

a brilliant way of approaching

19:51

your reach .

19:53

That just reminds me when I have introvert dates

19:55

, introvert days , I always

19:57

focus on search engine

20:00

optimization . Oh yeah , yeah

20:02

, because that's such a great introvert task

20:04

, because I don't know , I didn't go through all

20:06

like all tags of my images

20:08

and keywords of blog posts and all

20:10

those sorts of things where I just like , look

20:13

, I don't have to , I just have to deal with birds

20:15

today . No people .

20:19

And just keep . That , isn't it ?

20:22

Yeah , yeah . Or like bookkeeping or those kinds of

20:24

things where , just like that , no

20:26

, yeah . And again

20:28

, it does require you to

20:30

know yourself really well and

20:34

to know like and

20:37

to be honest with yourself , right , I think that's

20:39

probably almost the harder part of the times

20:41

, I feel .

20:43

Yeah , but I think that comes down to acceptance as well , doesn't

20:45

it ? That's that If you accept

20:47

that this is your life at the

20:49

moment obviously things change , you can get

20:51

better , you can get worse , you just don't know but

20:53

if you can accept that that is how you're feeling , how

20:56

you have to work at the moments , then

20:58

I think it's easier to then have that

21:00

knowledge about yourself .

21:03

Yeah , yeah , to be , yeah

21:05

. I agree it really boils down to acceptance

21:07

and be like , hey , I

21:11

accept the situation as it is

21:13

and I love that you said it's a temporary

21:16

situation . You don't know , no one knows , right

21:18

, you could perfectly well and the next day , something

21:20

you never know and

21:23

like what is helping

21:26

me as well is kind of like the also

21:28

, kind of like it is what it is right

21:31

, like to be like

21:33

. You know , this is just the current

21:35

situation and regardless

21:39

, I am well , all is well and

21:41

we're just feeling

21:44

that .

21:46

I think that thing about being

21:48

a temporary state was something that was really

21:51

, really important to me , because

21:53

I used to find that if I had a

21:55

bad patch with

21:58

my health and struggling with

22:00

a lot of pain and exhaustion , I

22:02

would then sort of spiral because I thought , oh God

22:04

, this is getting worse . And

22:07

through time over time I came to

22:09

realize that it was actually temporary

22:11

slots of time , that I'd have these relapses

22:13

and then I'd slowly recover and

22:16

another point that I'd have another relapse . And

22:18

now I know that if I do have a

22:20

few bad days , it's not forever . It doesn't

22:22

mean that my illness is getting worse . It

22:24

just means that for a small amount of time I'm

22:26

going to be feeling worse and I can cope with that . And

22:29

I think knowing that I can cope with that and it isn't

22:31

the end and that things can

22:33

get better has really made a huge difference in me

22:35

accepting my illness and being able

22:38

to run a business .

22:39

Yeah , but that is strongly

22:42

linked to you going

22:44

through that experience , you

22:47

going through a bad patch

22:49

and realizing oh okay

22:52

, there's a bad patch . These are the signs

22:54

. Now it's my time to take

22:56

better care of myself and I know things

22:58

will improve , which

23:01

is

23:03

we know this

23:05

now because we're , like all pros

23:07

dealing with chronic illnesses . But

23:12

if you have a client who is new at this

23:14

and who hasn't really strengthened that

23:16

experience , that muscle

23:20

, what are you telling them ?

23:23

Is to have that reminder , every almost

23:26

like an affirmation that this is a fate

23:28

. And one of my favorite phases through

23:31

illness and also through having my children , is this too

23:33

shall pass . Knowing

23:36

that every situation is temporary and

23:38

I think in general in life , even if

23:40

you haven't got a chronic illness , life

23:43

goes through so many different phases and everyone

23:45

has difficult moments . And it is temporary

23:48

. We can , there's always

23:50

a way out , even

23:53

really really hard situations . You

23:55

can't , it's never , never ends

23:57

. There are ways out of things

23:59

in general . So it's knowing

24:02

that and just repeating as an affirmation

24:05

this will pass , this will pass it

24:07

can really help to boost that knowing that it's

24:10

not permanent .

24:12

Yeah , and also trying to

24:14

like flip the script right , like

24:16

I mean I know it

24:18

sounds so like such a cheesy

24:21

Pinterest quote slash

24:23

, bad , rip

24:25

off of secret or whatever . Like you

24:29

cannot control what is happening , like

24:32

how your body reacts to certain things , but

24:34

ultimately you can decide

24:36

okay , do I wanna wallow in

24:38

this or do

24:41

I flip it and be like

24:43

you know it's

24:45

actually , it's okay , I'll be okay

24:48

, I'll see

24:50

. This is just a scenario

24:52

that's happening To

24:54

let my body know I have to take better

24:56

care of myself in the future .

24:59

Yeah , it's okay to have bad

25:01

days when you feel fed up with it all and

25:04

again , that , again

25:06

, that having that feeling , again it will pass . But

25:09

yeah , I think we all have every right

25:11

to think , oh , this is awful

25:13

, why me ? But knowing that it's not always going to

25:15

be that way just definitely

25:17

helps . Yeah .

25:18

Yeah , I agree . So

25:22

, in terms of really I'm curious

25:24

of when we

25:26

talk business , we

25:30

said it's already important to have , like that's

25:34

really important , so

25:37

you can plan with how your energy levels

25:39

are each day . What

25:42

are other ? I don't want

25:44

to call them hacks , but what are other ways

25:46

you do

25:50

yourself or you recommend your clients

25:52

to kind of like have

25:54

really , yeah

25:57

, to work your successful business on really

25:59

their own terms

26:02

and really , yeah

26:04

, almost kind of like this is the best business life

26:06

and I love it . What are kind of like the

26:08

steps that really the simple

26:10

steps we have thought about it implement

26:13

?

26:15

I think one of the main things to do is

26:17

to think about your strategy and make sure that

26:19

it's a strategy that works with the chronic illness . If

26:22

you're trading time for money then

26:24

and you have limited energy , then

26:26

that's not going to work because you

26:29

don't have it . You won't ever be able to grow that business

26:31

because your time and your energy

26:33

is limited . So thinking about ways

26:35

of changing it . So one example of that is

26:38

I said earlier

26:40

that when I started my first business , I was running birthday

26:42

parties and workshops

26:45

and obviously that is a huge strain on my energy

26:47

. So my plan and what

26:49

I'm doing now is franchising that part

26:51

of the business so that other people can run those

26:53

business , like those parties , on my behalf and

26:56

I can still grow the business and

26:59

be proud of what I've achieved , but I don't actually have

27:01

to do that myself . So

27:03

either thinking about if you can employ people

27:05

or change the model completely

27:08

, do more once

27:10

. Many approach franchising

27:12

just sort of thinking about

27:14

how best can my business suit

27:16

my health , and

27:19

looking at it that way can really make

27:21

a big difference .

27:23

Yes , I especially love franchising

27:26

and to

27:28

really think

27:30

about very early on on how

27:33

do I need to structure certain

27:35

things ? And I mean , even

27:37

if you're not going to franchise , right

27:40

, like maybe

27:43

you can feel really helpful and think

27:45

as if you would franchise . But even

27:47

if you have no intentions , but

27:49

to kind of like you know what is part of that , it's part

27:51

of like it's documenting your process , it's

27:53

documenting your workflow

27:56

and documenting

27:58

your system . So even

28:00

when you're not franchising , but when you then

28:02

desire decide , oh , I need help

28:04

, and you bring in , like , let's say , a VA or

28:06

an OVM , you already

28:08

have like so

28:10

much information collected

28:13

on how you run your business that

28:15

it just be like there you go . Let

28:18

me know if you have any questions .

28:22

So while you're documenting that process

28:25

, you can often find ways of doing things

28:27

quicker as well , because if you're actually focusing on , ok

28:29

, what is my process for onboarding a new client

28:32

, is there anything that you can then

28:34

take a step back and say , ok , is there anything I can do quicker

28:36

? Is there a way of automating part of this process

28:38

? So I don't actually have to be involved in that

28:40

? And although there

28:42

are often in the processes that

28:44

we were running without any thought of them , there are lots of energy drain , if

28:48

you sit back and think about that , what my process

28:50

is , you can . You can get rid of those energy drains

28:52

and make them a lot more efficient , which

28:55

is particularly important when you've got chronic illness .

28:57

Yeah , especially in , and I I'd

29:00

say , go over those systems

29:02

once a year , because how

29:05

usually happens , right , you start out

29:07

, you have a couple of clients , you

29:09

don't need that many systems because

29:11

I can take care of onboarding a new

29:14

client a month , two new clients a month

29:16

, whatever . But there will be a time

29:18

where , like this is no , not

29:21

going to happen . So the

29:23

earlier you start documenting

29:25

all of that and do

29:27

a yearly like review or

29:30

audit of all those things , I'd

29:32

say the better , because you're realizing that , Okay

29:34

, where are my energy drainers

29:37

? Very much so .

29:46

And I think , if you can , even even when you

29:49

have just got one or two clients , if you can think of a way that

29:51

you would do that in the future

29:53

. So imagine that you have , you are suddenly

29:55

growing and and you need to adapt

29:57

, because actually once you get to that point where you are growing

29:59

and you've got these clients , it's very hard to then take that step

30:01

back .

30:02

To put those systems in place and also it's probably getting

30:04

, it's probably happening really fast . You

30:06

will not really have the proper time

30:08

to implement systems with a clear

30:11

head because you're just be like who

30:13

chasing off me ? Yeah

30:16

, yeah , absolutely , I mean looking

30:18

back , I do not regret bringing

30:21

on an accountant very

30:23

early on and

30:28

like as much

30:31

as possible , super early on , yeah

30:34

, and everything like just

30:36

no , not dealing , not sending out the

30:38

email personally .

30:41

It makes such a difference and

30:43

it can take a lot of people who I

30:45

lot of my clients say they don't have enough time to do these

30:47

things . Often , if you , if

30:50

you spend an hour setting up your

30:52

email automations now , then over

30:54

the next , even within a week or two

30:56

, it's going to have paid back that time . So I

30:59

often talk to my clients about setting things up that

31:01

your future self will thank you for , and

31:03

it's thinking about yourself in the future . What

31:06

are you going to say today ? Thank you for

31:08

doing that . It's made my life so much easier

31:10

.

31:11

Yeah , that's , that's a . That's a beautiful

31:14

question to really ask yourself . I want

31:16

would be my future business FB

31:18

or , thankful for today , took

31:20

the time now to set up . But

31:24

it's always with those kinds of things , right Like

31:27

they're seem like a lot at

31:29

the at the beginning

31:32

, but when you look at them over time

31:34

they're like I

31:37

haven't started sooner , right

31:40

.

31:40

Yeah .

31:41

I mean that goes . I mean that's always

31:44

kind of like where we're

31:46

having a conversation with people about branding , for example

31:48

. Right , like , oh , but it's

31:50

so much work . And like , yeah , but

31:52

it's the

31:54

amount , the initial amount of

31:56

work . It's just only going to increase

31:59

and it's

32:01

not not going to go away

32:03

. It's also also just going

32:05

to have you'll have more things

32:07

to take care of once your business grows

32:09

and then you're sitting down at the beginning

32:12

to properly and

32:15

then let it grow

32:17

with you , instead of oh

32:19

okay , I now have like all

32:23

these gazillion things they're all mixed

32:25

and match to pick and mix

32:27

and like , oh , yeah

32:31

, that's always I don't know

32:33

, same thing work kind of like

32:35

no , not dealing with that , let's

32:38

, let's , let's . There's no instant gratification

32:40

doing that , let's just

32:43

not do that . I feel that's really

32:45

something that's really one of our strengths

32:47

. Maybe with entrepreneurs

32:50

or people in with chronic illness in general

32:52

, we're really learning

32:54

to become really good at doing

32:57

it and I think to not go

33:00

for like the instant win toward a quick

33:02

win , but for like the long

33:04

term , because we know the

33:08

quick win might feel good but

33:11

it's more important that we

33:13

focus on the long run .

33:15

Yeah , and if you can set up good

33:17

foundations for your business , which

33:19

obviously takes longer , then it's going to

33:21

, over the long term , it's going to be a lot more solid

33:24

business model and

33:26

get much more reward for it . So it's definitely worth putting

33:29

those foundations in place and making them as solid

33:31

as possible .

33:32

So we talked about you

33:34

mentioned , like the general business model yes , I

33:36

agree and we talked about

33:38

systems , processes , like automatizations

33:41

, what would you

33:43

say are also part of the foundations

33:45

you've mentioned that it's best

33:47

to take currently on in your business .

33:50

I think it's worth , early on , thinking about your boundaries

33:52

and about what you are willing

33:54

to do . So think about what

33:57

you want from life , what you want from your

33:59

business . Are you doing your business to

34:01

give you some medium of time ? And if that's

34:04

the case , what does that look like ? Are

34:06

you looking to have evenings off ? Are you

34:08

going to work evenings and take the day off

34:10

, if that's when you feel better at working

34:12

, and so really take that time to

34:14

work out what you want your business to look like , because

34:17

, again , that will affect your business model as well , knowing

34:20

what days you're working , how many hours you want

34:22

to work and then , very early

34:24

on , making sure that your customers

34:26

are aware of that as well . You can set up automatic

34:29

responses to emails which state the

34:32

hours that you're working and you could

34:34

say oh , I plan

34:36

to get back to you within X number of

34:38

hours or X number of days , and

34:40

having that sort of communication

34:43

early on can make people adapt

34:45

to that very easily . So a lot of people complain

34:48

that people expect , instance , responses

34:50

nowadays because of the invention

34:53

of mobile phones with emails and things like that . But

34:55

I found that if you tell people and

34:58

set their expectations , they

35:00

don't expect you to respond immediately

35:02

. They know that these are the hours that you work , the days

35:05

that you work , and that you will respond as soon as

35:07

you get back to the office . And

35:09

setting that expectation early on can make a big

35:11

difference . But you have to do it for yourself as

35:13

well . You have to say if you're telling customers

35:15

that I'm only responding during these hours

35:17

and they send something

35:20

quite inconsequential out of hours

35:22

, then don't respond to that immediately , because then you're setting

35:24

their expectations that you will respond straight away . So

35:26

it's being quite strict

35:28

with yourself to a certain extent and

35:32

your client .

35:34

Yeah , oh , I love mobile phones

35:36

and , yes , boundaries surely

35:39

work both ways , right ? I mean , if

35:41

you're getting in a client out

35:43

of office hours and you respond immediately , you're setting

35:45

a precedent . So next time the client will expect

35:48

you to respond anyway , right , immediately

35:50

, although you maybe said something else

35:52

, or and the

35:54

other expectation when that is that

35:57

? I have also found that to be so

35:59

, so , crucial . Like

36:02

my clients , for example , they know I'm not

36:04

going to respond on Mondays . Mondays is my

36:06

day with my kid . I'm

36:08

not going to , I'm not available on Mondays . They

36:11

also like , they also know I've

36:14

got to reply within certain time frame

36:16

and

36:18

, honestly , if

36:22

they have a problem with that , then

36:24

it's

36:26

my I don't know , I'd say

36:28

it's . I'm also partly

36:30

to blame because something in

36:33

my lead to client funnel

36:35

is not working properly

36:37

because there are not my right fit client

36:39

Right

36:41

, because I at one point

36:44

I was maybe like

36:46

I don't know , thinking I

36:49

know it would be , it would be cool

36:51

to work with this client . They're like , oh , the money would

36:53

be cool , it would be nice to have the money , or whatever

36:56

, and kind of I go against

36:58

my God of like this is not our ideal

37:00

client . And then , I

37:02

don't know there's usually a boundary issue like

37:04

approaching on the horizon

37:06

my experience . Yeah

37:11

, that is so crucial and you can do little things , and

37:14

I also found it that you

37:16

really had to talk

37:18

about it , make it really clear . Never

37:22

had it . I never had a concern , I

37:24

never had never had

37:26

that race as an issue or anything

37:28

, just like

37:30

, yeah , ok , yeah

37:33

, it's on holidays , china's not available Mondays , whatever

37:35

. Yeah .

37:37

I think the only problem comes if you don't communicate that , because

37:39

then people expect you to respond . But if

37:41

you're clear and upfront , people , people

37:44

accept that and they can choose not to

37:46

work with you if they don't , and they would

37:48

be the right fit for you anyway . So

37:50

it's good to set those expectations .

37:53

I once I

37:56

once checked your client . Like she

37:58

like what , what if ? Like I

38:01

said , like I'm on vacation , like I know that's

38:03

cool and like then she's kind of like half

38:06

joking , she's like , but what if ? Like I

38:08

don't know , the roof's on fire , please

38:11

call the fire brigade , right

38:14

? Like I mean , if

38:16

it's , if it's life

38:18

or death , then yeah , then like call

38:21

someone who's who can actually deal with it . Most

38:23

likely will not be your service provider , so

38:28

I'm so we're

38:30

like , we're curious , so

38:32

we have , we've talked about like the foundations

38:34

and the things we can do , and

38:38

that it is a lot to do so with mindset

38:40

and how you approach boundaries . What

38:45

is kind of like your ? I mean , we

38:47

always , I don't know , I've never met a service

38:49

provider who has , like how

38:51

, has no issue with boundaries , especially

38:54

when it kind of like comes to the over delivering

38:56

bit where you're like , oh

38:58

, yeah , sure I can look at that or

39:00

, yeah , sure we can do another like

39:03

video call or whatever . How

39:07

are you handling that ?

39:09

Yeah , I think I'm probably on the side of over

39:11

delivering as well , but

39:13

I think that I'm okay with

39:15

that in terms of . I think that's my

39:17

personality anyway , in that I kind

39:19

of often want us to do that extra

39:22

step . So

39:24

I think , as long as you aren't

39:26

pushing yourself too hard and

39:30

it is leading you towards your goals , I

39:32

think that the difficulty is if it's taking you away

39:34

from your goals and you're

39:37

saying yes to something that's not actually part

39:39

of your plan . I think that's

39:41

really important to avoid that when

39:43

you have a chronic illness and I think often we get distracted

39:46

by shiny objects and different

39:48

offers and things like that and it's

39:50

really important , particularly when you have a chronic

39:52

illness , that to know where you're heading and

39:54

make sure that everything you're saying yes to is

39:57

taking you in that direction .

40:00

Yeah . So we're circling back

40:02

to being really , really clear why

40:05

you're in business , for . What

40:07

is your goal ? What do you want to achieve

40:10

? Is it more

40:12

time with your family ? Is it take care

40:14

of ? What is it to ? And

40:17

then really be clear on , yeah

40:20

, and also in your values , the way

40:22

how you're achieving what you're

40:24

set out to achieve . Yeah

40:26

, I love that .

40:27

And again , then , being accepting

40:29

that and being those

40:32

are really kind of like the bits to

40:34

it and learning to say no

40:36

as well to things that aren't

40:38

taking you where you want them to be going .

40:41

Yeah , which is general advice . If

40:44

you know , this is not .

40:45

Sometimes as well , isn't it ?

40:47

Oh God , yes . But I'm

40:49

always kind of like looking

40:52

at it okay , what if I say yes to that ? Because

40:55

if maybe this is hard when you're

40:57

starting out in your business , but at a certain time , when

40:59

you've been in the game for

41:01

a year or two , you kind

41:03

of you have a pretty high

41:06

predictability rate how this is going to play out

41:08

. And then you're like , okay , if

41:10

I like no

41:12

, if it's just interrupting

41:14

, disrupting your peace , your

41:17

peace of mind , no , not

41:19

worth it . No , not

41:21

worth it . And

41:23

I had that with a client

41:25

of mine once where she

41:29

was like , yeah , but I

41:31

want to do it , I need the money . I'm like , yeah , okay

41:33

, cool , if you say you

41:35

want to have the money , you need the money , then work

41:37

that project , just make sure you have firm

41:39

boundaries . And you're like protecting

41:42

yourself through

41:44

that project . And

41:46

what happened ? The project went fine , she

41:49

was firming her boundaries , but what

41:51

happened ? That like not

41:53

so great client was really

41:55

happy with her work . So he referred

41:58

her to all his peers who

42:00

were also not all that great clients

42:02

. Like overall she was like he

42:05

keeps on referring me clients and I know this

42:07

is like a good , bad problem

42:09

to have , but they're not the people I enjoy

42:11

working with . It's really exhausting

42:13

and I always have

42:15

to be like on guard with my boundaries

42:17

, but it keeps like I cannot tell them

42:19

to no , to say to no , don't

42:21

bring me . So that

42:23

can also happen . Right , like the

42:26

people get and it takes you from completely different directions . Yeah , and

42:29

then you're like wait , no , I did not want to go into

42:31

this industry , I did not want to work with this type of

42:33

client . How the hell did

42:35

we get here ? So

42:41

maybe that's let's switch quickly

42:44

to before , to

42:46

kind of like end our conversation . If we

42:50

there's a chance that you're listening

42:52

to us and you're not suffering from mechanical

42:54

illness but you want

42:57

maybe you're considered working with someone

42:59

who is this close that they have a chronic illness . What

43:02

can we do as entrepreneurs

43:04

to work with freelancers

43:07

or hire part-time

43:09

team members ? What can we do to

43:12

establish a

43:17

good work environment or

43:19

service providers on a business ?

43:23

I think if somebody has this close that they've got a chronic

43:25

illness , then they're okay for you to

43:27

ask questions and just ask them whether

43:30

they need some sort of additional time

43:32

or if it's a different type of working

43:35

process I think everybody has

43:37

. Every chronic illness is different and

43:40

everybody with that chronic illness

43:42

has different reactions to it as well

43:44

.

43:44

And different ways of working with these boys . Everyone's kind of like the expert on

43:46

their type of chronic illness , so

43:48

like yeah , but even for them as well .

43:50

So someone else with POTS might have different , might

43:53

shop in different ways to how I deal with

43:55

it . So it's worth having that conversation

43:57

and not making any assumptions , because

44:00

I think it will

44:02

have different ways of working . But

44:05

it's good to have flexibility if you're working with

44:07

a chronic illness , because there are days when

44:09

, as you said earlier , that you just

44:12

get up and you can't really do much because the pain

44:14

is too much or the brain fog is too

44:16

heavy or the exhaustion is too bad . So

44:18

having flexibility and setting

44:20

longer lead times is

44:23

a good way . So if you are asking somebody to do a peaceful

44:25

work , a work for you , just to understand that

44:28

maybe they might have longer lead

44:30

times to deliver it and not

44:32

put pressure on them to deliver it sooner than

44:34

what they've offered . So

44:37

understanding that if

44:39

they've given you a deadline , that

44:41

there's a reason for that and you're trying to

44:43

bring that forward isn't

44:45

going to help anybody

44:47

because they might not be

44:49

able to do such a good piece of work if you're trying to put pressure on

44:51

them to deliver it quicker than they want to

44:53

. So having that flexibility and

44:56

understanding and

44:58

I think , just having those conversations asking

45:01

whether there's anything that could be useful

45:03

. I was talking to somebody yesterday who's

45:05

going to be going into a hospital but he still

45:07

wants to be able to work while he's in

45:09

hospital . So he's now talking to his

45:11

clients about the fact that he

45:14

wants to know upfront what work

45:16

is needing to be delivered so that he can plan for

45:18

that before he goes into hospital and make sure that he

45:20

can still deliver it while he's in hospital

45:22

. So he's asking for the work up front

45:25

and then making them aware that

45:27

there might be some changes depending on how

45:29

long his stay is going to be and how well the operation goes

45:31

. But he's been quite

45:33

upfront about it and his clients are responding

45:35

very positively to that . So

45:37

if you do have somebody approaching you in

45:40

that way just to have an open mind and understand

45:42

that this is

45:44

that they do produce good work and that you

45:46

can be flexible and work around their

45:48

requirements- yeah

45:50

, and also maybe yeah , think about your timeline

45:53

, right , because there's a high chance your timelines

45:55

are arbitrary set as well and you're

45:57

putting yourself under unnecessary

46:00

stress anyway .

46:01

So , right , oh , I wanna have this

46:03

done by the end of the week . Well

46:05

, what is really

46:07

gonna happen if that's not the case ? Right

46:09

, like often , we're

46:13

just having this fix . We just fixated

46:15

on a timeline that

46:18

is not in our best interest . Yes

46:20

, exactly , absolutely , absolutely . We're like

46:22

our own worst nightmare . So

46:25

, yeah , those are all absolute

46:27

points . And to

46:29

really , yeah , like , be transparent , we

46:33

open , don't shy away from the conversation

46:35

, just

46:38

be curious and

46:41

see , like I don't know . Maybe

46:43

also let's

46:46

say if you're hiring , looking for

46:48

different service providers , and

46:51

actually say , okay , I'm gonna give someone a chance , and

46:53

just say I go , knowing

46:59

that , especially now what

47:01

we said before , the current corporate climate is

47:04

not in most companies . It's not

47:06

very much in favor of what we're trying to get on this

47:08

. So

47:10

for some of them , their livelihood totally

47:12

depends on their self , on their self

47:15

and their employment and their entrepreneurship

47:17

, and really say , okay , I'm gonna , I'm

47:19

gonna give this person a try . They

47:22

seem their knowledge seems impeccable

47:24

, they seem really cool to talk to , let's

47:28

go .

47:31

I think people with chronic illness also develop strength

47:33

as a result of their illnesses as well . So

47:36

we have to learn how to adapt very quickly

47:38

to changing situations and how

47:40

to make the best out of the situation as well , and

47:43

those are brilliant skills to bring into a business

47:45

, and determination and resilience

47:47

and all those sorts of things are absolutely

47:50

brilliant for anybody else's business

47:52

as well . So they might

47:54

have the knowledge , but they've also developed these additional skills

47:56

as well .

47:58

Yeah , absolutely , that is so true . So

48:01

, to kind of end our beautiful

48:04

conversation , thank you so much , sarah

48:06

. You

48:08

brought us anyone who's listening rather

48:10

than a gift for us . It's a great masterclass

48:13

. Do you want

48:15

to tell us something about it ?

48:18

Yeah , I have created a masterclass

48:20

for the six secrets of running

48:22

a chronic illness friendly business

48:24

, and it talks you through the different areas

48:26

that you need to focus on if you want to make your

48:28

business a success when you're living with a chronic illness . So

48:31

looking at things like your

48:34

mental health , your physical health , your productivity

48:37

and your planning so a lot of things that we discussed

48:39

today , but we've delved

48:42

into it a bit more detail , so it's

48:44

definitely worth a watch .

48:47

Perfect , I'm going to click in and show notes . Thank you

48:49

so much for that . So where can people

48:51

find you online , sarah , if they decide they want to

48:53

know more about you ?

48:55

If you have a business and you

48:57

have a chronic illness , then you can come and join the free

49:00

Facebook group which is called Entrepreneurs Against

49:02

the Odds , and I have

49:04

a website which is excel against

49:06

the oddscouk , and

49:09

you can also find me on Instagram

49:11

with the same name as well .

49:13

Perfect , we're going to link all those , so

49:18

I always have one final question before

49:20

I let anyone off . What

49:23

book are you currently reading , sarah ?

49:26

I am reading a book called Energize

49:29

by Simon Alexander Ong . I've

49:31

got it just next door to me and it's all about

49:34

how to find your energy and

49:36

how to increase your energy . So looking

49:38

at things like making

49:41

sure that your space and your mind is

49:44

free , that can elevate your energy , and

49:46

looking at being joy in your life . So

49:49

I'm still quite early on into that , but I'm

49:51

really fascinated about how obviously

49:53

I have an energy limiting illness . But

49:56

there are ways that , even if I haven't got physical

49:58

energy , I can increase my mental energy and

50:01

I think when you've got a business , that is brilliant

50:03

.

50:04

Oh , absolutely , yeah , absolutely

50:06

. It's all about capacity building . I

50:08

love that Well , sarah , thank

50:10

you so much for joining me Scenic Route Podcast

50:13

A with last year's hair .

50:15

Thank you so much for inviting me to your channel . It's been a delight speaking

50:18

to you .