Search Results for: "michel fortin"

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In this episode of the Geniuses Of Copywriting podcast, we talk to world class copywriter Michel Fortin, one of the 'OGs' of internet marketing and creator of many big $$$ campaigns. In this episode: - The subtle positioning change Michel used to go from a struggling copywriter to building an agency with 22 junior copywriters - The story behind the John Reese $1M-in-a-day sales letter that opened the door to $1M days - Michel's proven Q.U.E.S.T. formula for writing million dollar winners time after time Michel is one of he copywriting experts I've studied for the past 15 years and is responsible for some of the biggest breakthroughs in online marketing. To connect with Michel go to linkedin.com/in/michelguyfortin
Michel Fortin interviews Gary Halbert - Part 1
So imagine what would it be like to earn a million dollars in a single day. How would it change your life for you and those you love? Is it even possible? Oh hell yes it is! and today's guest expert Michel Fortin will share exactly how he did it and how you can too. We'll talk about this and a whole lot more in todays episode of epic men radio. www.EpicMen.com
Today I’m so pleased to have an old friend on the show who has branched out beyond direct-response copywriting. In the early 2000s, Michel Fortin was a living legend who wrote the first online sales letter that brought in $1 million in sales in one day. I am forever grateful to Michel for being my presentation partner in my famous 2005 Las Vegas Breakthrough Copywriting seminar. We also took the stage together a few years later at Harv Eker’s Marketing Event, and we sold somewhere in the neighborhood of $100,000 worth of products during our presentation. A number of things happened later, and not all of them good for Michel. But he took his career in a different direction, and today he’s an expert in SEO copywriting, which means optimizing your copy for the search engines. You have to understand that everything Michel has to tell you today can make you a lot of money, if you listen and act on what he says. 1. Michel, 15-20 years ago, you were a renowned direct-response copywriter, and a highly revered partner of mine in the two presentations, which I just mentioned in the intro. You still are, in my mind. But fast-forward to 2020, over the past decade, fate took your career in a different direction. Could you tell us about that? 2. Let’s talk about SEO copywriting. What is it these days, and how does it work? 3. Could you drill down to how you use SEO copywriting for traffic, and for conversion? 4. I know this is ignorant and prejudiced, but I always thought that SEO copywriting meant stuffing as many keywords into your copy, to the point where it draws a lot of traffic but where it is barely readable. Please adjust my attitude and give us some tips on how people who have not reached your level of expertise can use SEO copywriting methods.. 5. What’s counterintuitive about SEO, CRO and UXO? That is, what works that you wouldn’t expect, and what doesn’t work that you think shouldn’t work? 6. As time moves forward, how do you think SEO copywriting will evolve?Download.
I first met Michel Fortin, copywriter extraordinaire, in 2008 while I was attending my first live event. It was the Big Seminar in Atlanta, and Michel and his new wife, Sylvie, had just come down from the stage after presenting to a crowd of over two thousand people. Within a few days I had been invited to join a Mastermind with him and many others that had been put together by Armand Morin. Michel’s input and help over the years definitely made a difference in my early success as an online entrepreneur. In 2010 I won an affiliate contest with Armand and Michel’s help with my sales copy was part of the prize. During a twelve hour period in a hotel suite in Atlanta he and the others put my business under the spotlight and recommended changes that would ultimately get me on the track to success. Fast forward seven years and Michael continues to be a force in my life and in the world of copywriting. We connected in person again while both speaking at an event in Toronto, Canada, not far from where Michel lives in Ottowa. During this podcast interview he shares how he got started with writing sales copy for doctors and other professionals, what is most important in this process, and how newer online entrepreneurs can begin by writing their own copy. He also discusses how we are always able to better sell ourselves and our products through third party endorsements. Michel was in sales as a young man and had to learn how to get over the fear of rejection. He did overcome this fear by writing lead generating sales letters. The prospects would call him to set up an appointment, and at that time they were already pre-sold. That’s when he connected with doctors who wanted him to write sales copy and advertisements for them to be able to sell their services. He dubbed himself the ‘success doctor’ and went on to write some of the most effective copy ever developed for this purpose. He credits this type of specialization with his early success and recommends narrowing your focus for best results. You will enjoy this podcast and get to know Michel much better. For some of the top books on the topic of writing sales copy for your information products check out these books. Find out more about what Michel is doing at Workaholics 4 Hire. Subscribe To My Podcast Series On iTunes
My guest is Michel Fortin of Shelly Solutions, whose strategies get to the heart this. He is a 30 year marketing veteran, who has done copywriting and marketing as a coach, under his own consultancy, and within an agency. He’s active in industry associations spoken on stage at conferences, holds industry  certifications and has written hundreds of published articles.   As you hear our conversation, you’ll hear him refer to many sources: a half-dozen books that guided his thinking on sales & marketing, several tools, conceptual frameworks and companies he’s worked with. Also listen to him tell, on a personal level, how as a young salesperson, an ADHD-related condition called Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD) led to him writing marketing content and becoming so good at it that he left sales to sell his copywriting services.  For complete Show Notes, go to: http://leadgeneering.com/episode-26-wrangling-performance-out-of-site-content-with-michel-fortin/
Legendary copywriter Michel Fortin shares how to be more persuasive in any environment and situation.   You'll Learn: The platinum rule for persuasion The OATH formula to better know the people you need to persuade The ‘so-that’ technique to bridge arguments and persuade people   About Michel: Michel is currently Director of Communications at SEO TWIST, Inc., a full-service digital marketing agency that's also a Premier Google Partner, Facebook Partner, and Shopify Partner. He manages a portfolio of 47 client accounts ranging from small businesses to multinationals. He’s also President and co-owner of Supportibles, Inc. (formerly Workaholics4Hire), an outsourced customer support solutions and backoffice business process services provider. He leads a team of three managers and 22 support staff, as well as over 200 part-time virtual assistants and remote workers. They handle an average volume of over 15,000 support cases daily with clients in a variety of industries and verticals. He’s also responsible for building the clientbase, developing strategic marketing plans, and implementing business growth campaigns.   View transcript, show notes, and links at http://AwesomeAtYourJob.com/ep322
Michel Fortin and I continue our conversation from last week. I get him to share a few copywriting strategies you can use to elevate your sales results online. Michel’s had an extremely successful career as one of the best direct response copywriters alive. 15 years ago, he gained internet marketing fame as the copywriter behind the web’s first $1million in a day product launch from John Reese. Michel’s words have been used by companies large and small and across multiple industries generate millions in revenue.  For transcripts, show notes, and more, go to Leadpages.com/podcast  About the PodcastThe Lead Generation Podcast features small business origin stories and marketing lessons for coaches, consultants, service professionals, and leads-dependent entrepreneurs. Our goal is to fire you up for your own business and shorten your pathway to profit while you make a positive impact on your audience. 
Michel Fortin is a legendary copywriter and full stack marketer, currently serving as the director of marketing for a medical clinic in Ottawa, Canada.  This episode is a counter-punch to our usual conversation on entrepreneurship. The skills you’ve honed as an entrepreneur may be well suited for taking your talents in-house for a corporate gig. Find out why a J-O-B might actually be a perfect move for you as Michel and I discuss his choice to take on a dedicated role inside a company, the principles of kaizen that he brings to his leadership style, and how he is still able to scratch his entrepreneurial itch.  For transcripts, show notes, and more, go to Leadpages.com/podcast  About the PodcastThe Lead Generation Podcast features small business origin stories and marketing lessons for coaches, consultants, service professionals, and leads-dependent entrepreneurs. Our goal is to fire you up for your own business and shorten your pathway to profit while you make a positive impact on your audience.   
Michel Fortin is the “Roger Bannister” of web copywriting. He wrote the copy for a John Reese product that was the first to sell 1 million dollars worth in one day. Not a bad accomplishment for any copywriters CV. In this interview Michel reveals… * The 3 laws of human nature and the 3 P’s of copywriting * The OATH formula that will tell you exactly what your market thinks about your product (and therefore how to sell to them) * The UPWORDS formula that will help you to connect with your reader * The FORCEPS formula that will help you demonstrate overwhelming proof to your reader (even the most hard-nosed skeptic will have no choice but to believe you) * The 3 deadly C’s of copywriting. You want to avoid these 3 mistakes at all costs And more!
This week Ricky talks with Michel Fortin. They discuss a wide variety of subjects on marketing, positioning, copywriting, and family. It's an episode you don't want to miss. And don't forget to visit Workaholics4Hire.com if you're in need of customer support outsourcing and more. Spread The Word, Leave A Review, And Subscribe! Subscribe to our email list Subscribe & Leave A Review on iTunes Ask a question via Voicemail
Interview with Michel Fortin, we talk about creating great copy to sell your products and create a perfect prospect profile. We also discuss the effectiveness of long vs. short sales letters , videos sales letter аnd what drives people to buy your products.     Wat we talk in the show Licorice Group Training With a Twist Hundreds of video lessons and training programs covering a variety of Internet products, web-based business strategies, online services, and more. Watch online and on demand from your own desk, 24/7 Learn from expert instructors with real-world experience Follow at your own pace with complete student support More Information → Skill-Boosting Online Classes and Coaching. Get high quality training from experts, consultants, and seminar leaders but at a fraction of the seminar cost. Upgrade your skills in online marketing, Internet business, copywriting, social media, customer service, outsourcing, project management, web design, and more with our affordable, professional tutorials right from your own desk.   and MichelFortin.com – Michel’s websites Upcoming WordPress Virtual Business Summit I am so excited to be a presenter for the upcoming WordPress for Business Virtual Summit by WP Academy, taking place all next week, plus more bonus sessions! Join thousands of entrepreneurs and WordPress enthusiasts from around the world for this series of 13 free, content-rich webinars on WordPress Web Design, Internet Business, and Entrepreneur Success. You’re not going to want to miss this opportunity to hear from myself and my peers. Some of the presentations by topnotch experts include: Getting Organic Traffic to Your Blog Performance Execution for Entrepreneurs Monetizing WordPress, and WordPress Community Sites Thesis v2 Theme, Inside and Out Branding Secrets, with Branding Expert And six other world-class presentations! Review the program and celebrity-speaker lineup, and signup from here.   Sponsors  WSO of the Day – Simple, Fast, Easy Rep Management Brings In The Bucks
Michel Fortin certainly has a way with words. At age 21, Michel had already filed for bankruptcy… …until a single quote empowered him to face his fears of failure and social anxiety. He soon learned how to harness his unique gift of persuasive language. Hear exactly how Michel became the first person to write copy that sold a million dollars in one day. Michel has created formulas that are unbelievably useful  and incredibly POTENT. And… in this episode of the McMethod Email Marketing Podcast, Michel shows you how to apply those formulas to email marketing. In this episode, you’ll discover: the importance of learning to speak your audience’s language. how to turn survey results into CASH. secrets you can use to determine what level of awareness your audience is at. how great research can positively DEFINE your ability as a copywriter . one powerful trick about interviewing successful clients. how understanding your audience can help you determine exactly how long your copy should be. the importance of EMPATHY and how that can empower you to dramatically improve your sales revenue. insider tips that are guaranteed to help you generate a sense of urgency that will CLOSE SALES. two POWERFUL formulas that will transform the way that you write copy. Mentioned: MichelFortin.com SuccessDoctor.com Fortinize.com/DDC Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO This podcast is edited and produced by Authority Engine. Learn more at AuthorityEngine.com. The post Episode #36: Michel Fortin’s Two Secret Formulas to Writing Blockbuster Copy appeared first on McMethod.
Michel Fortin certainly has a way with words. At age 21, Michel had already filed for bankruptcy… …until a single quote empowered him to face his fears of failure and social anxiety. He soon learned how to harness his unique gift of persuasive language. Hear exactly how Michel became the first person to write copy that sold a million dollars in one day. Michel has created formulas that are unbelievably useful  and incredibly POTENT. And… in this episode of the McMethod Email Marketing Podcast, Michel shows you how to apply those formulas to email marketing. In this episode, you’ll discover: the importance of learning to speak your audience’s language. how to turn survey results into CASH. secrets you can use to determine what level of awareness your audience is at. how great research can positively DEFINE your ability as a copywriter . one powerful trick about interviewing successful clients. how understanding your audience can help you determine exactly how long your copy should be. the importance of EMPATHY and how that can empower you to dramatically improve your sales revenue. insider tips that are guaranteed to help you generate a sense of urgency that will CLOSE SALES. two POWERFUL formulas that will transform the way that you write copy. Mentioned: MichelFortin.com SuccessDoctor.com Fortinize.com/DDC Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO This podcast is edited and produced by Authority Engine. Learn more at AuthorityEngine.com. The post Episode #36: Michel Fortin’s Two Secret Formulas to Writing Blockbuster Copy appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.
Cette semaine à Accès Libre, un co-animation Montréal-Québec, alors que Michel Bédard de l’émission Les capés à CKIA se joint à Luc Fortin en cette veille de la Journée internationale des personnes handicapées. Au programme: La Société québécoise de la déficience intellectuelle réagit au projet de loi n° 40 sur la gouvernance scolaire, Stéphanie Hamelin, seule escrimeuse non-voyante du Québec, une conseillère municipale de Sherbrooke demande l’adoption d’une politique d’accessibilité universelle et un programme jumelle des étudiants en travail social ou en ergothérapie  et des parents ayant besoin de répit. Recherchiste et édimestre: Christiane Campagna Mise en ondes Jean-Sébastien Laliberté Cet article Édition spéciale avec Luc Fortin et Michel Bédard est apparu en premier sur Canal M, la radio de Vues et Voix.
Vor genau zwei Monaten ist Talk Hoch 2 gestartet und wir haben mittlerweile neun Folgen hinter uns. Diese und zehnte folge widmen wir ganz Talk Hoch 2 und sehen mit einem kritischen Auge zurück. Was hat sich getan, und was werden wir verändern? Das alles erfahrt ihr in dieser Folge.   Shownotes: 00:00 – Thema: Fazit – Wie läuft es? welche Themen haben euch am meisten interessiert und was können wir besser machen? 07:40 – Was geht ab?: Mozilla Firefox ist wieder cool Der neue Firefox Quantum Website Eine App die Farbenblindheit simuliert Sim Daltonism von Michel Fortin im iOS App Store und hier die Website Oder die App die Farbenblinden beim unterscheiden von Farben hilft Red Stripe von Michel Fortin im iOS Apps Store und hier die Website 16:01 – Thema: Fazit – Was wollen wir verändern und wohin soll es gehen?  18:35 – Verabschiedung
Today on the Geniuses Of Copywriting podcast we have underground copywriter and Agora control beater - Million Dollar Mike Morgan.  In this episode: - How Mike turned a failed launch into a $100k payday with 1 email - Mike's habit of writing 7-figure promos for his clients on their first project - How any good writer can work with Agora and leverage their huge credibility Mike has testimonials and endorsements from John Carlton, David Deutsch, David Garfinkel, Mark Joyner, Michel Fortin, Pauline Longdon and many other big names in the industry. Mike doesn't seek the limelight - he is a working copywriter, so make sure you absorb every word of wisdom he drops in this episode. Full transcript available in the Facebook group here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/GeniusesOfCopywriting/
Kevin Rogers is a fellow performer. For the better part of 10 years, he was a hardcore standup comedian making his living on the road. Looking into the future, he saw older comedians who hadn’t “made it” and decided to shift gears. With the help of a close friend, he found the world of copywriting. Another comedian friend was also a little ahead of him on the very same path. His first “sales letter” was a mocking treatise for a self-pleasuring device. His friend told him it was better than 70% of the copy he came across. From finding his first clients to advice he received from copywriting legends… …this episode delivers the goods and may re-shape the way you’re molding your copy career Dive in and listen now. In this episode, you’ll discover: What are the top mistakes Kevin hears from the client side of the copywriting business. Kevin’s best piece of advice for every copywriter entering the field. (The two-part process for standing out.) The “slippery banana syndrome” of the early stages of your copy career. How Kevin brought his focus in tight and his copy done. HThe number one mistake people considering a copy career make. (It has nothing to do with getting good at copy.) Kevin learned faster and escaped impostor syndrome with THIS advice from two legends. Mentioned: Copy Cheif Community Kevin’s Podcasts John Carlton David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: Hey everybody, we’re back for another edition of the podcast I’m David Allan from makewordspay.com – we have a very special guest today on the show, someone I’ve been looking forward to talking to for a long time he is a copywriter or a freelancer – you know mentors other copywriters he has a wildly successful forum and stuff for copywriters that you may already be guessing who I’m talking about he’s also a stand-up comedian… Kevin Rogers welcome to the show. Kevin Rogers: Thanks for having me brother, I’m looking forward to the conversation David Allan: Yeah it’s been good I’ve we have some interesting things in common including when I started my own podcasts that I did called Takeover Tuesday and you started the Truth in Marketing podcast I believe we were using the same music – by some weird we’ve been gone looking for the same royalty-free music Kevin Rogers: Right, exactly funny they think one of us is that’s a cool they picture us in there like conducting the band David Allan: So let’s let’s go back maybe you know I’m sure a lot of people you know know maybe a little few things about you for those who are completely brand-new let’s go back to your sort of superhero origin story you know how did you get into all this marketing stuff. Kevin Rogers: Yeah well it’s a pretty long and sordid tale so I’ll I’ll give you the highlight reel it’s you know I was a confused young teenagers I think we’re all supposed to be but you know 17 my kids 14 now and like other parents of kids his age are mapping out their entire professional lives you know it’s this all this pressure to know exactly what they want to do with the rest is crazy so yeah 18 and to win like deadbeat jobs and not really you know know what to do but love comedy and so I ended up on on stage and an open mic night and Wow is he a hooked man within five minutes it’s funny Dave you know like you’re a performer when people tell me they you know I’ve been thinking about doing stand-up I’m like well you have to now like you you’re obligated to yourself and potentially the world of comedy and entertainment to go find out if there’s something there right because it’s not a normal thing for somebody to want to do this actually right it’s been fear in the world just any public speaking let alone gun everybody I’m hilarious you’re not gonna believe what I’m about to say you know you gotta be a weirdo and so it’s if it’s for you though it’s like this you know you change on a cellular level the second you you walk off stage and can breathe again the first time and that’s what happened to me and yeah so that was it man you know ended up figuring out how to get rode gigs and spent almost ten years on the road probably seven like hardcore traveling that was how I made my living took a shot at ya sitcom riding out in LA and some different stuff that I didn’t end up loving like I thought I would and and then you know decided I had to get off there I really just burned out man I just couldn’t couldn’t stand up in front of you know 24 you know southern southerners there Warner Robins Georgia you’re going yes it was pretty good be funny not feeling the inspiration here so uh I you know what do you do then it’s like I didn’t also didn’t want to become god bless them you know there’s there’s there’s guys that scared me for my future when I back then you know cuz cuz I’m seeing them in their 50s and right I mean it can kill the room and they’re solid club headliners but you’re like I don’t know if you’re ever gonna get that break you know and I was like I man if I hit like if I’m approaching 30 and nothing’s happening I gotta think this over you know and it’s kind of what happened it’s like I tried some different avenues and I’m like I don’t know how this works like how do I get how do I get in control of this I couldn’t see that right because I didn’t understand business certainly didn’t know anything about marketing so did a bunch of like no resume jobs bartending and in in Belle hopping and through some miraculous you know kismet found this copywriting thing and discovered Wow hey a lot of those instincts that serve to me as a comic can work here as well and fumbled my way through the process of getting those early clients and you know made a go of it and it’s been amazing yeah you know when you’re looking back at the you know when’s the first time you really heard about copywriting when somebody actually said that word or you he thought what is that her totally yeah I remember clearly because I thought it was the dumbest thing I’d ever seen right like a friend of mine named Chris Tomasulo he’s kind of known in the industry yeah yeah yo doc sulo a really brilliant guy and that was sort of the amazing thing that happened was I was working for an old comic friend of mine who was running you know timeshare resale company you know basically a shady as it sounds although he was trying to do it right until the crack took over but that was another story but so he hired Chris came in to consult and Chris’s a master of inbound telephone sales you know but I was learning a lot from Chris and really liked him and he knew I loved to write and so he’s like you know you should try you should look at copywriting the hell does that mean and he showed me a sales letter and I was like it was one of those like you know nineties you know early 2000 sales that is where it was like purposely really ugly and and I’m just like honestly I was like if somebody sent me this I would immediately mark it as spam you know like it but but then he started explaining the the persuasion behind it and why it was ugly and and how it and I was like I started getting really interested then he turned me on to so it’s a Halbert and Carlton and I started reading there their blogs and I was like now it was like electricity at that point it’s the hope so as I studied it then it was the big problem of how do I get someone to pay me for this find out if I’m good enough to get paid right right that becomes the next problem absolutely so what were those first steps like did was Chris giving you you know ideas or were you looking around or out of yeah Chris was helping me discover that I might actually have some I’ll tell you what’s funny is the first thing I ever wrote was I was mocking copy because I I was just kind of being a smartass and I wrote this and I read a few letters in thought I get this whole thing and my instinct is as I guess a comedic thinker was to write satire right right right and so I wrote like half of sales letter about the in my mind the product was I don’t know mature audience is like I don’t know how to even say this without no go for it being disgusting but the big joke was going to be the product was you know a device that helps you blow yourself okay you might want to edit that in some way or am I not but to me it was just funny like like how do you build up to this right and it was all about you know it was discovered this ancient art of self-gratification was discovered in in a in a cave atching you know and and I’m just like cracking myself up writing this thing right and I show it to Chris and he goes look he goes he goes I know you’re being a smartass but this is actually pretty good he’s like this is probably better than like 70% of the copy I sees I’ve seen it you need to maybe like seriously think about you know yeah that’s good so yeah so then the other amazing I guess you know if you look back it’s like amazing things happen when you’re supposed to be on a certain path right right so then I found out through a weird email chain letter among cold comedy friends that of comic my name VIN montello was studying that Masterson course okay and I was like why you know what are the chances so I start talking a VIN and VIN was like just starting to get his first clients and so he was actually really instrumental in me figuring out how to you know respond to certain you know job requests there was a forum back then called the copywriting board or the copywriters board okay written by a run by Michel Fortin and that was a great board that’s kind of the inspiration one of the inspirations for copy chief hey cuz that went away and then there was just like the warrior forum and all these cesspools you know yeah so then my very first gig was the guy post that he wanted an autoresponder series and I was still really new to the whole marketing side of it you know and especially like digital marketing and so guys like I need an autoresponder series and if you’ve you know you send me some samples so I so VIN goes here’s what to do he’s like he’s like tell the guy write to him and tell him you’ll eat normally it’s a hundred an email but you’ll do all five for 300 as a package deal I go okay great I’ll do it I go by the way what’s an autoresponder what does that even mean to me so the guy and that had to write one you know mm-hmm so I literally sat on my kitchen table and in wrote one about a golf product and the funny thing is did I don’t golf you know I’ve gone flike twice in my life I don’t like it I’m not interested in it but I don’t maybe cuz I was studying Carlton and I know Carlton wrote like golf ads no I got that seems interesting enough to write about so I sent it to the guy and I get the gig you know and it was funny was he wrote to me he said you know some other people were had lower prices than you he’s like but I can tell you know what you’re doing so I learned a lot of that like one is like just go for it even if you really don’t know what you’re doing it you know if you care about doing good work it’ll probably work out okay and the other thing is like have somebody watching your back you know like I you know if I wouldn’t have known that I then could check my work I don’t think I would have had the confidence to even put myself out for the gig right right so you know it’s it’s a tricky thing with freelancing it’s like you don’t need to wait around forever for some magic power to anoint you that you’re ready you also don’t want to promise something you know you can’t deliver so but you know if you have a mentor and you have some backup in some people around you who can help guide you then you can definitely get a head start a lot faster absolutely that’s very good very good advice so now you are a mentor for copy writers and copy chief has taken off and become a real valuable and favorite resource from many up-and-coming copywriters let’s delve into some of the pitfalls and stuff of the freelancer like you said you just listed off stuff like maybe imposter syndrome where oh yeah you know getting here getting your first clients and stuff like whatever yeah I’m sure much like when I take a look at people’s copy and critique it and stuff this is usually the same mistakes that are being made over and over again is that the case with relaxed copywriters and and what do they what do they screw up huh you meet from the writing from the getting into it part and then yeah well I guess on the writing part we can we keep going forever you know with some of the beginner mistakes but I think yeah some of it is like I think well let’s just let me just say what I know helps right because I guess I’ve coached a lot of freelancers now I would say the the best thing you can do for yourself when you’re starting out is just saw– specialize and I know people say this but not just in a certain niche but decide like what do you want to write what’s you enjoy writing what do you feel particularly good at write so well I’ll tell you one mistake I see is people will come to me sometimes and say okay hey you help me figure out how to get some clients and I’m like sure so let’s talk about what do you like to write and who’s been your best client or and they’re like oh now I haven’t written anything yet I just you know I read this book and they’re my man and I come on like so the number one thing is the copywriting will not solve your financial conundrum right they forget that you’ll you’ll ruin your reputation you’ll screw over some clients even if you you don’t mean to like your number one goal is not how do I make a living at this your number one goal is how do I get damn good at this right and again I I see some people who are already good floundering with their confidence and not getting paid what they’re worth and and those things too but that’s better and certainly more fixable than the other problem which is I don’t never have no idea what I’m doing and I’m just out trying to hustle money for for it you know so and I’ll tell you that that is the biggest problem I hear from the client side too is it’s really hard for them to know who to trust and even simple things like you know just because they talk a good game on the phone like you know vet their samples make sure they’re actually their samples like make you know and talk to some of their past clients and make sure they didn’t flake on the gig and you know so those are the biggest problems I hear is like they get the voice all wrong they they miss deadlines or they ghost completely right just terrible stuff where it makes it so much harder for the people who are are talented and want to do good work so you know like – yeah definitely don’t look at a copywriting as the the quick fix to your money troubles I tell people if they’re like you know like I’m launching my my course right now fit for the fur it used to be just private one-on-one and it was really expensive now it’s 10% of that price just for the curriculum which I still do live right but even now people come to me and they’re like hey if I take your course can I can I be getting how much do you think I can be getting next month and I’m like don’t take the course I don’t you know you’re just you’re looking at this all wrong it’s a foundation on which you can build a career but you got to be committed to the long haul of this I’ve seen it happen in three months for people I’ve seen it take three years you know it absolutely is not a I don’t know what to do go figure out Facebook AdWords or something like that don’t don’t try to you know put people’s whole career in your hands for how you’re gonna represent them in a sales letter it’s you’re not ready so what should be what’s what a you know maybe top two or three things that people should be doing everyday if they’re there so they’re gonna play the long game if they’re gonna get better at this what what are the top things they should be doing every day they should be yeah breaking down ads you know like really studying like like hand copying is cool for me not for the reason it is good to the whole rote learning thing of you know I’ll move my hand in this way and it’ll see her into my brain what could copy looks and feels like however I wrote to Gary Pennsylvania when I was new in this business and shockingly he wrote back and I’ve basically asked him I was like look you you and you’re on Carlton are the only people who I literally had a visceral reaction to your copy you know and and I said I just have to I so desperately want to understand how you’re doing that is I said to him is like is it an LP like what am i what am i experiencing that would make me feel that way you know yeah and he said the truth is you you have to really believe in the product right if you really believe in what you’re writing about then it’s it’s not hard all you’re feeling is my enthusiasm channeled you know obviously there’s there’s some persuasion things in place but it’s not trickery you know it’s it’s genuine enthusiasm he said and he said the if you want to get good my best advice is read of control at every day in and he said don’t just read it he said but then ask yourself what is one thing I might change about this ad that I think would make it convert even better and that was so huge to me because I realized and then the John Carlton who became a friend and mentor later really solidified this to me it’s like really what you’re getting paid for is the ability to is jumping is calls it critical think about the offer about the avatar well you know the relationship the emotions it’s the thinking where we really earn our money in and so if you start developing that early that’s the thing that’s gonna set you apart right right look here’s what makes a copywriter great it’s it’s not that we all have access to the same case studies and information and formulas and all those things right it’s what is that thing you’re gonna bring to it that nobody else on the planet could because you happen to be interested in in this part this particular science or human evolution or you know like you know ten different writers can all have the exact same product research but they’re all gonna come up with different big ideas and hooks because they all have this unique DNA and the set of experiences and it’s the combining of those two factors that create the magic right so you know think critically you know get to get really good at research but don’t ignore your other interest and your freaky little habits and fetishes that you know bring those other elements into it and you combine those two and that’s where the great ideas happen because honestly you know if you’re good at nothing but coming up with great big ideas and understanding how to sell those and in a sales letter even if you’re not the greatest writer you’ll have a great career in this business they they will they will put other writers around you you know what I’m saying it’s the ideas that are that the rare commodity in this business right that’s very very good advice for a good advice and now you mentioned of course that John Carlton became a mentor and a friend to you did you reach out to him and forge that relationship or how did that works I know a lot of people out there are probably also afraid to reach out to some of these people who share a hold in high esteem yeah yeah it’s interesting it is scary especially when you’re not sure what you want from them right and so the reason John and I is relationship if all the way it did I think is because first of all something about John just really resonated with me and I had this weird problem early in my career and it got it must be so much worse for freelancers now which is you know I had I had information overwhelmed but there’s a certain like patch of development in a freelance copywriters career where you’re you’re good enough to get paid and get gigs but you’re also learning so much and when you’re actually doing the work when you read something that opens up your mind in a new way you really want to implement it like immediately right and so a few times I was being in the middle of a sales letter and I’d read something on like clay make pieces blog back when it was active or on the that forum or somewhere and it would be so revolutionary to me I go man if I don’t stop Fred I have to start this letter over or I’m not giving the client everything I’ve got you know and but then eventually I was like I gotta I gotta quit this like this is overwhelming so I said here’s what I’m gonna do I’m gonna I’m gonna only follow one one great you know because my my thing was if I could get as good as one of the grades I mean like even a half as good we take me probably years but that would be good enough to have a great career right and feel in control of this thing and so I said I’m gonna choose one and I’m shutting out everything else off like I’m just um because I want to get to know their thinking and their process so well that it would literally like they’re sitting next to me at the computer and when I come to a crossroads and the copy I could turn to them and say what would you do right here and literally know exactly what they would advise me right and so for me I chose Carleton it was an easy choice because again he was he was my guy he just I loved how he wrote and how he talked about the subject matter he chose and so I just studied the guy to death and I was so obsessed with with him in his work in his wisdom I used to drive around back and forth to my job listening to his kick-ass comedy kick-ass copywriting his secrets you know audio over and over and over and so when I actually finally got in front of him and reached out to him I felt like I had earned his attention not not just because I put that that obsessed on him but the one other thing I did was I waited for an opportunity to earn his attention and so he had a form and he used to do critiques and he was gonna be out of town and he said hey what why don’t you one of you hotshots take over the critique for me this week and you know show us your stuff and I was like ah this is what I’ve been waiting for right I took the critique and I you know III think I did a screen cap I must have done it like three times you know like just I can get it better better really put a lot of work into it and posted it up because I knew that John would have to watch this to make sure I’m not giving crazy ass advice you know right and so John wrote to me privately and he’s like hey I just wanna I wanted to thank you you know you did a really good job and I critique and he’s like you know let me know how I can return the favor I was like finally so I said I said your honor I just want one thing from you I could you look at my some of my copy cuz I totally had impostor syndrome at this point you know I was exactly at that place where it’s like am I even should I even be taking this money like do I know what I’m doing and it’s so he read my stuff and he said you know yeah clearly you’re still kind of new but you’ve got great instincts your writings good and he said you know overall I can tell you you’ve got the goods and once I heard that I was like good night everybody you know no more imposter sin come from yeah I just felt and uh and then from there we we just kept talking and developed a friendship that’s lasted jeez 10 years now so it’s been amazing awesome if people want to get a hold of you they won’t get involved with you you have copy chief and your coaching program and stuff where should people go after they get involved yeah just go to copy chief dot-com and you know if your first visit there you’ll probably see an offer to get on the waitlist that means that we open to new members about once a month and you know until then you can enjoy the you know the podcast are there on the site and you know tons of great articles we focus a lot on story and and all that kind of stuff and copy so yeah I’d appreciate you coming by and I think you’ll dig it awesome I really want to thank you for coming on the show Kevin it’s long overdue I think and it’s been this hours just flown by and I just want to extend my gratitude for taking the time out for our audience thanks man I really enjoyed it and for everybody else hopefully we’ll be back again and we will be back again with another edition of the podcast next week hopefully with someone as insightful as Kevin The post Episode #191 – Kevin Rogers On Your Path To Freelance Success. Simple Ideas To Get Out Of Your Own Way appeared first on McMethod.
Kevin Rogers is a fellow performer. For the better part of 10 years, he was a hardcore standup comedian making his living on the road. Looking into the future, he saw older comedians who hadn’t “made it” and decided to shift gears. With the help of a close friend, he found the world of copywriting. Another comedian friend was also a little ahead of him on the very same path. His first “sales letter” was a mocking treatise for a self-pleasuring device. His friend told him it was better than 70% of the copy he came across. From finding his first clients to advice he received from copywriting legends… …this episode delivers the goods and may re-shape the way you’re molding your copy career Dive in and listen now. In this episode, you’ll discover: What are the top mistakes Kevin hears from the client side of the copywriting business. Kevin’s best piece of advice for every copywriter entering the field. (The two-part process for standing out.) The “slippery banana syndrome” of the early stages of your copy career. How Kevin brought his focus in tight and his copy done. HThe number one mistake people considering a copy career make. (It has nothing to do with getting good at copy.) Kevin learned faster and escaped impostor syndrome with THIS advice from two legends. Mentioned: Copy Cheif Community Kevin’s Podcasts John Carlton David Allan’s Make Words Pay Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO David Allan: Hey everybody, we’re back for another edition of the podcast I’m David Allan from makewordspay.com – we have a very special guest today on the show, someone I’ve been looking forward to talking to for a long time he is a copywriter or a freelancer – you know mentors other copywriters he has a wildly successful forum and stuff for copywriters that you may already be guessing who I’m talking about he’s also a stand-up comedian… Kevin Rogers welcome to the show. Kevin Rogers: Thanks for having me brother, I’m looking forward to the conversation David Allan: Yeah it’s been good I’ve we have some interesting things in common including when I started my own podcasts that I did called Takeover Tuesday and you started the Truth in Marketing podcast I believe we were using the same music – by some weird we’ve been gone looking for the same royalty-free music Kevin Rogers: Right, exactly funny they think one of us is that’s a cool they picture us in there like conducting the band David Allan: So let’s let’s go back maybe you know I’m sure a lot of people you know know maybe a little few things about you for those who are completely brand-new let’s go back to your sort of superhero origin story you know how did you get into all this marketing stuff. Kevin Rogers: Yeah well it’s a pretty long and sordid tale so I’ll I’ll give you the highlight reel it’s you know I was a confused young teenagers I think we’re all supposed to be but you know 17 my kids 14 now and like other parents of kids his age are mapping out their entire professional lives you know it’s this all this pressure to know exactly what they want to do with the rest is crazy so yeah 18 and to win like deadbeat jobs and not really you know know what to do but love comedy and so I ended up on on stage and an open mic night and Wow is he a hooked man within five minutes it’s funny Dave you know like you’re a performer when people tell me they you know I’ve been thinking about doing stand-up I’m like well you have to now like you you’re obligated to yourself and potentially the world of comedy and entertainment to go find out if there’s something there right because it’s not a normal thing for somebody to want to do this actually right it’s been fear in the world just any public speaking let alone gun everybody I’m hilarious you’re not gonna believe what I’m about to say you know you gotta be a weirdo and so it’s if it’s for you though it’s like this you know you change on a cellular level the second you you walk off stage and can breathe again the first time and that’s what happened to me and yeah so that was it man you know ended up figuring out how to get rode gigs and spent almost ten years on the road probably seven like hardcore traveling that was how I made my living took a shot at ya sitcom riding out in LA and some different stuff that I didn’t end up loving like I thought I would and and then you know decided I had to get off there I really just burned out man I just couldn’t couldn’t stand up in front of you know 24 you know southern southerners there Warner Robins Georgia you’re going yes it was pretty good be funny not feeling the inspiration here so uh I you know what do you do then it’s like I didn’t also didn’t want to become god bless them you know there’s there’s there’s guys that scared me for my future when I back then you know cuz cuz I’m seeing them in their 50s and right I mean it can kill the room and they’re solid club headliners but you’re like I don’t know if you’re ever gonna get that break you know and I was like I man if I hit like if I’m approaching 30 and nothing’s happening I gotta think this over you know and it’s kind of what happened it’s like I tried some different avenues and I’m like I don’t know how this works like how do I get how do I get in control of this I couldn’t see that right because I didn’t understand business certainly didn’t know anything about marketing so did a bunch of like no resume jobs bartending and in in Belle hopping and through some miraculous you know kismet found this copywriting thing and discovered Wow hey a lot of those instincts that serve to me as a comic can work here as well and fumbled my way through the process of getting those early clients and you know made a go of it and it’s been amazing yeah you know when you’re looking back at the you know when’s the first time you really heard about copywriting when somebody actually said that word or you he thought what is that her totally yeah I remember clearly because I thought it was the dumbest thing I’d ever seen right like a friend of mine named Chris Tomasulo he’s kind of known in the industry yeah yeah yo doc sulo a really brilliant guy and that was sort of the amazing thing that happened was I was working for an old comic friend of mine who was running you know timeshare resale company you know basically a shady as it sounds although he was trying to do it right until the crack took over but that was another story but so he hired Chris came in to consult and Chris’s a master of inbound telephone sales you know but I was learning a lot from Chris and really liked him and he knew I loved to write and so he’s like you know you should try you should look at copywriting the hell does that mean and he showed me a sales letter and I was like it was one of those like you know nineties you know early 2000 sales that is where it was like purposely really ugly and and I’m just like honestly I was like if somebody sent me this I would immediately mark it as spam you know like it but but then he started explaining the the persuasion behind it and why it was ugly and and how it and I was like I started getting really interested then he turned me on to so it’s a Halbert and Carlton and I started reading there their blogs and I was like now it was like electricity at that point it’s the hope so as I studied it then it was the big problem of how do I get someone to pay me for this find out if I’m good enough to get paid right right that becomes the next problem absolutely so what were those first steps like did was Chris giving you you know ideas or were you looking around or out of yeah Chris was helping me discover that I might actually have some I’ll tell you what’s funny is the first thing I ever wrote was I was mocking copy because I I was just kind of being a smartass and I wrote this and I read a few letters in thought I get this whole thing and my instinct is as I guess a comedic thinker was to write satire right right right and so I wrote like half of sales letter about the in my mind the product was I don’t know mature audience is like I don’t know how to even say this without no go for it being disgusting but the big joke was going to be the product was you know a device that helps you blow yourself okay you might want to edit that in some way or am I not but to me it was just funny like like how do you build up to this right and it was all about you know it was discovered this ancient art of self-gratification was discovered in in a in a cave atching you know and and I’m just like cracking myself up writing this thing right and I show it to Chris and he goes look he goes he goes I know you’re being a smartass but this is actually pretty good he’s like this is probably better than like 70% of the copy I sees I’ve seen it you need to maybe like seriously think about you know yeah that’s good so yeah so then the other amazing I guess you know if you look back it’s like amazing things happen when you’re supposed to be on a certain path right right so then I found out through a weird email chain letter among cold comedy friends that of comic my name VIN montello was studying that Masterson course okay and I was like why you know what are the chances so I start talking a VIN and VIN was like just starting to get his first clients and so he was actually really instrumental in me figuring out how to you know respond to certain you know job requests there was a forum back then called the copywriting board or the copywriters board okay written by a run by Michel Fortin and that was a great board that’s kind of the inspiration one of the inspirations for copy chief hey cuz that went away and then there was just like the warrior forum and all these cesspools you know yeah so then my very first gig was the guy post that he wanted an autoresponder series and I was still really new to the whole marketing side of it you know and especially like digital marketing and so guys like I need an autoresponder series and if you’ve you know you send me some samples so I so VIN goes here’s what to do he’s like he’s like tell the guy write to him and tell him you’ll eat normally it’s a hundred an email but you’ll do all five for 300 as a package deal I go okay great I’ll do it I go by the way what’s an autoresponder what does that even mean to me so the guy and that had to write one you know mm-hmm so I literally sat on my kitchen table and in wrote one about a golf product and the funny thing is did I don’t golf you know I’ve gone flike twice in my life I don’t like it I’m not interested in it but I don’t maybe cuz I was studying Carlton and I know Carlton wrote like golf ads no I got that seems interesting enough to write about so I sent it to the guy and I get the gig you know and it was funny was he wrote to me he said you know some other people were had lower prices than you he’s like but I can tell you know what you’re doing so I learned a lot of that like one is like just go for it even if you really don’t know what you’re doing it you know if you care about doing good work it’ll probably work out okay and the other thing is like have somebody watching your back you know like I you know if I wouldn’t have known that I then could check my work I don’t think I would have had the confidence to even put myself out for the gig right right so you know it’s it’s a tricky thing with freelancing it’s like you don’t need to wait around forever for some magic power to anoint you that you’re ready you also don’t want to promise something you know you can’t deliver so but you know if you have a mentor and you have some backup in some people around you who can help guide you then you can definitely get a head start a lot faster absolutely that’s very good very good advice so now you are a mentor for copy writers and copy chief has taken off and become a real valuable and favorite resource from many up-and-coming copywriters let’s delve into some of the pitfalls and stuff of the freelancer like you said you just listed off stuff like maybe imposter syndrome where oh yeah you know getting here getting your first clients and stuff like whatever yeah I’m sure much like when I take a look at people’s copy and critique it and stuff this is usually the same mistakes that are being made over and over again is that the case with relaxed copywriters and and what do they what do they screw up huh you meet from the writing from the getting into it part and then yeah well I guess on the writing part we can we keep going forever you know with some of the beginner mistakes but I think yeah some of it is like I think well let’s just let me just say what I know helps right because I guess I’ve coached a lot of freelancers now I would say the the best thing you can do for yourself when you’re starting out is just saw– specialize and I know people say this but not just in a certain niche but decide like what do you want to write what’s you enjoy writing what do you feel particularly good at write so well I’ll tell you one mistake I see is people will come to me sometimes and say okay hey you help me figure out how to get some clients and I’m like sure so let’s talk about what do you like to write and who’s been your best client or and they’re like oh now I haven’t written anything yet I just you know I read this book and they’re my man and I come on like so the number one thing is the copywriting will not solve your financial conundrum right they forget that you’ll you’ll ruin your reputation you’ll screw over some clients even if you you don’t mean to like your number one goal is not how do I make a living at this your number one goal is how do I get damn good at this right and again I I see some people who are already good floundering with their confidence and not getting paid what they’re worth and and those things too but that’s better and certainly more fixable than the other problem which is I don’t never have no idea what I’m doing and I’m just out trying to hustle money for for it you know so and I’ll tell you that that is the biggest problem I hear from the client side too is it’s really hard for them to know who to trust and even simple things like you know just because they talk a good game on the phone like you know vet their samples make sure they’re actually their samples like make you know and talk to some of their past clients and make sure they didn’t flake on the gig and you know so those are the biggest problems I hear is like they get the voice all wrong they they miss deadlines or they ghost completely right just terrible stuff where it makes it so much harder for the people who are are talented and want to do good work so you know like – yeah definitely don’t look at a copywriting as the the quick fix to your money troubles I tell people if they’re like you know like I’m launching my my course right now fit for the fur it used to be just private one-on-one and it was really expensive now it’s 10% of that price just for the curriculum which I still do live right but even now people come to me and they’re like hey if I take your course can I can I be getting how much do you think I can be getting next month and I’m like don’t take the course I don’t you know you’re just you’re looking at this all wrong it’s a foundation on which you can build a career but you got to be committed to the long haul of this I’ve seen it happen in three months for people I’ve seen it take three years you know it absolutely is not a I don’t know what to do go figure out Facebook AdWords or something like that don’t don’t try to you know put people’s whole career in your hands for how you’re gonna represent them in a sales letter it’s you’re not ready so what should be what’s what a you know maybe top two or three things that people should be doing everyday if they’re there so they’re gonna play the long game if they’re gonna get better at this what what are the top things they should be doing every day they should be yeah breaking down ads you know like really studying like like hand copying is cool for me not for the reason it is good to the whole rote learning thing of you know I’ll move my hand in this way and it’ll see her into my brain what could copy looks and feels like however I wrote to Gary Pennsylvania when I was new in this business and shockingly he wrote back and I’ve basically asked him I was like look you you and you’re on Carlton are the only people who I literally had a visceral reaction to your copy you know and and I said I just have to I so desperately want to understand how you’re doing that is I said to him is like is it an LP like what am i what am i experiencing that would make me feel that way you know yeah and he said the truth is you you have to really believe in the product right if you really believe in what you’re writing about then it’s it’s not hard all you’re feeling is my enthusiasm channeled you know obviously there’s there’s some persuasion things in place but it’s not trickery you know it’s it’s genuine enthusiasm he said and he said the if you want to get good my best advice is read of control at every day in and he said don’t just read it he said but then ask yourself what is one thing I might change about this ad that I think would make it convert even better and that was so huge to me because I realized and then the John Carlton who became a friend and mentor later really solidified this to me it’s like really what you’re getting paid for is the ability to is jumping is calls it critical think about the offer about the avatar well you know the relationship the emotions it’s the thinking where we really earn our money in and so if you start developing that early that’s the thing that’s gonna set you apart right right look here’s what makes a copywriter great it’s it’s not that we all have access to the same case studies and information and formulas and all those things right it’s what is that thing you’re gonna bring to it that nobody else on the planet could because you happen to be interested in in this part this particular science or human evolution or you know like you know ten different writers can all have the exact same product research but they’re all gonna come up with different big ideas and hooks because they all have this unique DNA and the set of experiences and it’s the combining of those two factors that create the magic right so you know think critically you know get to get really good at research but don’t ignore your other interest and your freaky little habits and fetishes that you know bring those other elements into it and you combine those two and that’s where the great ideas happen because honestly you know if you’re good at nothing but coming up with great big ideas and understanding how to sell those and in a sales letter even if you’re not the greatest writer you’ll have a great career in this business they they will they will put other writers around you you know what I’m saying it’s the ideas that are that the rare commodity in this business right that’s very very good advice for a good advice and now you mentioned of course that John Carlton became a mentor and a friend to you did you reach out to him and forge that relationship or how did that works I know a lot of people out there are probably also afraid to reach out to some of these people who share a hold in high esteem yeah yeah it’s interesting it is scary especially when you’re not sure what you want from them right and so the reason John and I is relationship if all the way it did I think is because first of all something about John just really resonated with me and I had this weird problem early in my career and it got it must be so much worse for freelancers now which is you know I had I had information overwhelmed but there’s a certain like patch of development in a freelance copywriters career where you’re you’re good enough to get paid and get gigs but you’re also learning so much and when you’re actually doing the work when you read something that opens up your mind in a new way you really want to implement it like immediately right and so a few times I was being in the middle of a sales letter and I’d read something on like clay make pieces blog back when it was active or on the that forum or somewhere and it would be so revolutionary to me I go man if I don’t stop Fred I have to start this letter over or I’m not giving the client everything I’ve got you know and but then eventually I was like I gotta I gotta quit this like this is overwhelming so I said here’s what I’m gonna do I’m gonna I’m gonna only follow one one great you know because my my thing was if I could get as good as one of the grades I mean like even a half as good we take me probably years but that would be good enough to have a great career right and feel in control of this thing and so I said I’m gonna choose one and I’m shutting out everything else off like I’m just um because I want to get to know their thinking and their process so well that it would literally like they’re sitting next to me at the computer and when I come to a crossroads and the copy I could turn to them and say what would you do right here and literally know exactly what they would advise me right and so for me I chose Carleton it was an easy choice because again he was he was my guy he just I loved how he wrote and how he talked about the subject matter he chose and so I just studied the guy to death and I was so obsessed with with him in his work in his wisdom I used to drive around back and forth to my job listening to his kick-ass comedy kick-ass copywriting his secrets you know audio over and over and over and so when I actually finally got in front of him and reached out to him I felt like I had earned his attention not not just because I put that that obsessed on him but the one other thing I did was I waited for an opportunity to earn his attention and so he had a form and he used to do critiques and he was gonna be out of town and he said hey what why don’t you one of you hotshots take over the critique for me this week and you know show us your stuff and I was like ah this is what I’ve been waiting for right I took the critique and I you know III think I did a screen cap I must have done it like three times you know like just I can get it better better really put a lot of work into it and posted it up because I knew that John would have to watch this to make sure I’m not giving crazy ass advice you know right and so John wrote to me privately and he’s like hey I just wanna I wanted to thank you you know you did a really good job and I critique and he’s like you know let me know how I can return the favor I was like finally so I said I said your honor I just want one thing from you I could you look at my some of my copy cuz I totally had impostor syndrome at this point you know I was exactly at that place where it’s like am I even should I even be taking this money like do I know what I’m doing and it’s so he read my stuff and he said you know yeah clearly you’re still kind of new but you’ve got great instincts your writings good and he said you know overall I can tell you you’ve got the goods and once I heard that I was like good night everybody you know no more imposter sin come from yeah I just felt and uh and then from there we we just kept talking and developed a friendship that’s lasted jeez 10 years now so it’s been amazing awesome if people want to get a hold of you they won’t get involved with you you have copy chief and your coaching program and stuff where should people go after they get involved yeah just go to copy chief dot-com and you know if your first visit there you’ll probably see an offer to get on the waitlist that means that we open to new members about once a month and you know until then you can enjoy the you know the podcast are there on the site and you know tons of great articles we focus a lot on story and and all that kind of stuff and copy so yeah I’d appreciate you coming by and I think you’ll dig it awesome I really want to thank you for coming on the show Kevin it’s long overdue I think and it’s been this hours just flown by and I just want to extend my gratitude for taking the time out for our audience thanks man I really enjoyed it and for everybody else hopefully we’ll be back again and we will be back again with another edition of the podcast next week hopefully with someone as insightful as Kevin The post Episode #191 – Kevin Rogers On Your Path To Freelance Success. Simple Ideas To Get Out Of Your Own Way appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.
Marc Lindsay Hit Play Or Download MP3 (Above)… Name: Marc Lindsay Industry: SEO Website: Article Marketing Automation Marc Lindsay’s Bio: Marc Linday and his partner Dan Turner from Article Marketing Automation are friends from way back when… One of my fondest memories of those boys is us both duelling it out at Ed Dale’s Over The Edge conference as to who was the #1 internet marketer in the world. After much debate, if my memory serves me correctly, they both agreed it was me. But seriously, as much as it pains me to say it, Marc probably is probably in my top 3 smartest SEOers of all time… and to top it off, he’s a top bloke too. Together with Dan they do business on their own terms, not getting caught up in the ‘guru’ hype. They’ve built a tremendously successful SEO business with many other “SEO gurus” employing their services to build links to their sites… and that’s not to mention the many real world clients they have. Watch The Interview In A Video Playlist With Key Learning Points And Annotations (8 videos): Did You Enjoy The Interview? Post Your Thoughts, Comments And Insights Below… Interview Transcript: Click here to download the PDF transcript. David Jenyns: Hi guys, David Jenyns here from the seomethod.com. I just got a call this afternoon with Marc Lindsay. Marc Lindsay is a guy I’ve friends with for a long time now and he’s pretty much an absolute expert guru on SEO. When I’ve got issues and questions, I’ll go to Marc. He’s one of the guys behind the PLR Pro and also they’ve got their own SEO company ltseo.com and he has many achievements under his belt. We’re very lucky to have him on the line. Are you there Marc? Marc Lindsay: Yes I am David, thanks for jumping on the line. It’s good to be able finally to record an interview with you because I don’t think we’ve actually had the pleasure to join work forces yet. David Jenyns: No. And I almost feel as if every call we have we should record, there is so much good content in there, so hopefully this will be the first of many. I know you’ve got a tight deadline, so I’m just going to jump straight into it. I’ve been interviewing a few other people as well and I wanted to find out, when you’re about to launch a brand new site, you haven’t done any promotion to it, you’ve literally just registered the domain name, be it you’re working for a client or one of your own sites, what’s the process that you go through for promoting that site? Marc Lindsay: Well I guess to start, the process begins before I register the domain name. If I can get on a client before they’ve even registered a domain name, and depending what their purpose is, it can come down to a tactical play on the market that they’re trying to target. As you know, a better domain purchase that might be keyword rich in url, assuming it’s going to make sense and match for the over end goal will give them some quick wins for anything that is related to that keyword match in the domain url. Of course everything else outside of that you’re going to have to do authority building and all the rest. If I can I like to get in on that level. Most people already have their domains, that’s the situation they’re in. So you’re working with what they’ve got. You come in just after they’ve purchased, like you said, and you’ve got the domain sitting there, it’s ready, it’s a brand newbie. David Jenyns: Just on the domains names, I have a quick question. You are talking about the different domain names and helping them with keyword rich, there are a couple of questions that always come up. How do you feel about .net and .org and the other extensions? And my other question is as far as dashes in the url, what are your thoughts on those two things? Marc Lindsay: Ok, .nets, .orgs I don’t use them, purely because I’m a little more forward think now, so I tend to think five or ten years down the track. If I want to try and resell that domain, what has the greatest value to me? So if I’m building a website, I’m building a real business around it in any industry and I have a .com after it, it has a much higher resale value in comparison to a .net or a .org. .Nets can go pretty high, especially if you’re talking about two word domains and things like that, although a lot of them are gone now. It has to be a pretty special domain that normally would be worth tens of millions in the .com version to get a good price for it as a .net. So I always try to go for a future in mind and that future is either to resell that domain as a business later on or for branding purposes, in which case a .com is going to trump everything else. David Jenyns: Yes. And how about dashes? Marc Lindsay: I prefer not to do dashes. If I absolutely have to to break the word up, I will, but I don’t use dashes. You can see when doing almost any search in Google now that they can usually quite clearly pick out the phrases that it matches in the url. David Jenyns: Perfect. And then you were about to lead into how you then take it to the next level. Marc Lindsay: Yes, how we produce SEO smackdown. Basically what we do, where possible, we try and get off right from the get go from doing good planning. If you’re not doing good planning, then you’re already behind the eight ball. Most people miss this step right from the start. This is when you end up with messy sites down the track or you don’t have your structure in place or it just can get really messy. I always say, and you’ll hear this analogy in a lot of industries, basically for every hour you spend in the planning process, doing the right sort of planning, is ten or fifteen times that which you’ll save later on. Basically I sit down and I draft an imaginary view of what my site would look like but I do it in an Excel sheet. You might be familiar with this Dave. I think I’ve shown you some of the breakdowns for it. I know we go through a good part of it in our keyword training course. It’s the structure of your site that you’re trying to set out. People just seem to skip over this important step very early on. They say, oh, I just want to put a site up. I want to use some AdSense or some affiliate sales. But that’s what they’re saying now depending on what level or where they’re sitting at. Then they’ll get twelve months down the track or eighteen months down the track and they will think, I really wish I’d planned that through a bit better. That’s what I hope I can impress on you now to avoid rushing straight into that. So I start up an Excel sheet, I start mapping out my structure as per column and breaking down into how I would envision the site would look from a category point of view and how I would basically go and set that up. That does two things at this point. One, it saves you a great deal of time, not only in going forward with SEO but also even in just planning SEO, and both of those are two very important points. The reason it saves you time is because, Dave, you know when you’re in the zone and when you’re researching a specific industry, you get keyed into that industry. So, if I’m keyed into that industry, I’m doing all this research now, and you might be just trying to find your first fifteen pages of content to start with, but you’re already keyed into this industry. So if you were going to go through and finish off the research and do the entire lot of research and lay it out properly in a formatted way, then you might only start with fifteen pages. In that case you select your style, you elect your phrases you’re going to place under that, you find them out, you get them written and you put them on your website. They are usually also the basis of where you want to start with from an SEO point of view. So it stands for two purposes. As you’ll notice, I’ve combined content/structure creation here as part of the SEO process because it is a very important part of it. By planning that out now, let’s say it’s two months down the track when you’re ready to put more content on your site. If you didn’t have that plan there, you’d get to two months down the track and you’d say, oh, what do I do now? What keywords? The biggest thing that I appreciate more and more as I go through my learning phases, because you always keep learning and it can be in anything. In sales, you want to reduce the friction of the sale as much as possible. The harder you make it for somebody to do something the less likely they’re going to do it. And that is for me as well. Friction for me to get my work done, friction for me to do something. This is why, for example, affiliates, if they get an email or if they get everything they need to promote a program it makes it easier for them to do it. So the friction for them to promote your program is gone. What you want to do is reduce that friction you put on yourself by doing as much of the work as possible when you are in the mood for it. I guarantee if you get two months down the track and you then start to look at this website, and you say, oh, what do I have to do content about now to keep my site growing in phrase potential and the rest, if you have to sit there and work out firstly what were you trying to do with the site when you set it up, because it is not always clear on the vision you had there, especially if you didn’t write it down. Secondly, what content do I actually already have up and thirdly what phrases would then be the next best target to go through? So you’re looking at at least thirty minutes more research just to look for the next lot of things you want to do. Or you’ll rush it out and you’ll just put anything on the site. They’re both the worst things you can do. Imagine having to do that five times throughout the year. Basically you end up with a disorderly site that’s not properly structured and no clear goal or focus for the website. David Jenyns: When you actually go to that keyword selection, what keywords are you looking for? Are you one to actually look at the competition that’s out there? I know your course goes into this in more detail. As a rough outline, are you going into looking at competition, how many people are searching for it and those sort of things when you’re doing that keyword analysis? Marc Lindsay: We have our own algorithm that we use. I tend not to go by competition values now, because they don’t exist to me. Competition’s not a battle and usually it’s not a true indication because it’s just a rough competition thing. The best thing you can do for a major level phrase, if it’s something really worth you jumping into, is to analyze the top ten. Analyze the top ten, look at what they’ve got for back links, look at how they’re doing things and that will give you an indication of how hard the industry is. I do come at this from a different angle and that angle is from pure confidence in our ability to get sites ranked. It means that I can just push competition values aside. So at the end of the day, if a keyword has more traffic for it and a bit more competition and you have a keyword that is along the same lines and has a little bit less traffic and a little bit less competition, I usually end up ranking for both variations of that keyword, just by virtue of doing good SEO. Of course I do go for a longer tail lesser competition value, but it’s not something that I meticulously select out any more. If I had the choice between meticulously selecting my keywords or planning out my site structure first, I know I’d get a much larger payoff in doing proper planning than I would in being very meticulous with phrases. It is different if you’re going for a one niche thing. If you’re trying to build the best possible one shot to get a site up, to get it ranked super quick and get wins in the door, absolutely, it’s a different process. I’m just saying how we do our process for a lot of our larger sites we go for. So if you are going through for a more niche specific then you’ve got to go for what is going to give you the quickest win. That’s either going to be buying phrases or product related phrases, author phrases if you’re doing digital downloads of books and so on. Usually for us now, we’re not trying to hit that nth degree level of lower competition. Quite often it can limit me in what I can do with the page if it is a long tail very specific phrase, it limits the type of phrases I could have ultimately coming into that page. The more specific I go, the less options I have on that page as far as being able to craft it after other related phrases as well. David Jenyns: Yes, for sure. I’ve noticed that on one particular site I’ve got in mind where I’ve got quite a lot of keywords that I’m going after. I’ve deliberately positioned them to almost go the root part of that keyword series. I pick up for that same page about five or ten different variations on that same page even though I’m not specifically targeting for that one. I suppose that really is once your domain name is really quite powerful. You can’t do that if you’ve just put a website up and you don’t have many links to it or authority; you have to build that over time. You talked about the keyword selection, getting the right domain name, then mapping out your structure. Once you’ve figured that out then obviously you’re going to do a bit of on page optimization on those keywords you’ve planned you want to after. Is that where we’re up to now? Marc Lindsay: Yes basically now we’re up to I’ve laid out my domain, this is your site, this your site map for the next, in some cases, for the next two to five years. You don’t have to do that much. You can take it toward the next six months. But I do say you have a clear goal to what you want to achieve firstly and then do that lot of work and then follow through on that before moving on from there. Once you’ve got that I then look for quick wins within that industry. When you go through the full expanse of doing keyword research, you will have categories that are in vertically related industries, you’ll have categories that are slightly off from the direct buying phrase, maybe slightly information, slightly buying. What you want to do form there is select what would be the best quick win for your domain that would give you best result as far as traffic in the minimal amount of time and sales in as well. Basically you’re going for buying specific, non research phrases at that point, and depth. That’s how I usually go when I first start the website off. David Jenyns: And then you’ll optimize pages. Let’s say you’re working for a particular client and they’ve already got a site up. You’ll either optimize pages that they’ve got, or create those content pages. Marc Lindsay: Yes exactly. If they’re open to having content pages created, not all of them are, then we go through that process and restructure their site and go through that process with them. Otherwise it is on page optimization that is done first. You always have to set the base and go through from there. David Jenyns: The you’ve got your on page optimization right, and then obviously we start on the off page stuff. Marc Lindsay: Yes. What areas do you want to cover? I assume cover on page to its fullest in what you’ve go there anyway. It would probably a waste of your readers’ time to over that. David Jenyns: Yes, we pretty much follow the fundamentals. You just need to have the keyword in the appropriate places throughout the page and all that sort of thing. I think on page optimization should be fine. As you’d agree, off page optimization is where it’s all at when it comes to SEO if you had to pick one or the other. Marc Lindsay: Yes. Ideally you want to be working on a combination of both. I’ll just make a comment here to everyone because I see it quite a lot. Don’t try and SEO a one or two page website. It’s just going to be a waste of your time. Try and go for at least ten pages. If you’re going for a really specific one phrase only site, you can probably get away with a few pages. But if you’ve got an ebook site and you have a sales page, don’t try and SEO that, you’re just going to waste your time. There is no point. If you want to build sales to that product, build ten or fifteen vertically related feeder sites around that purely designed for content to bring in traffic and then push them through a sales funnel to the sales page. Don’t try and rank the sales page site. I just see that quite a lot and I wanted to throw that out there while it was jogged in my memory. David Jenyns: I think that’s good because it also echoes something that Michel Fortin was talking about. He was talking about not wanting to necessarily over optimize a sales letter because it takes away from the primary reason you put up the sales letter which was to convert the traffic. We talked about using feeder sites, funneling the traffic over. I reckon there is obviously a few reasons why that works. You’re talking about it also from an SEO point of view. You want to try and go for more pages. I had one client contact me and say I want to rank for this particular keyword, which was funny t-shirts. I said, wait, if you want to go after something like that, how about we look at some of these other keywords. You really want to go for a lot of these longer tail keywords and variation keywords, try and get a base of those and then further down the track you might pick up that really highly competitive term. Use those other things, like you said, the quick wins, that’s what you want to go for straight off the bat. Marc Lindsay: Yes, absolutely. Like you said, quick wins. And if he’s in funny t-shirts and things like that, he’s got a lot of opportunity to expand that infinitely, because there are heaps you can do. David Jenyns: Yes. Where do you go from there? Marc Lindsay: Basically I think we go to the off page point of view which is when you said I would tick off pages as the next most important. I agree with that. But you can never just pick one, we always have a fairly extensive content build out for our own sites and we always try and do it for clients. If I someone has a site that is too thin as far as content is, then I won’t take them on. I’ll offer to help them with it or I’ll tell them how they can do that. they just have to have a certain amount. It’s fine and well if you go and do the optimization yourself and you make a mistake for yourself but when people come in to pay me for a service it’s my duty to tell them whether or not they are going to be doing the best thing for their website. It doesn’t work for anyone if they’re paying me for a service and they don’t results because of some core limitations. It just doesn’t work out like that. It’s always got to be a good combination of both and I tend to go pretty heavy on content these days. Sites can range from fifty to a hundred to three, four, five, six hundred pages. That’s pure content, not community driven content there, so it always adds into what you’re trying to do. David Jenyns: On a page, how much content do you like to see? Obviously it’s going to vary, but is there a minimum, a certain number of words? Marc Lindsay: I like to see content that doesn’t look like it is just search engine fodder. Wherever I can now I get my writers to include images with them, I basically fill them out to a properly structured article that’s giving something back to the user with a minimum of five to six hundred words, the odd article with eight hundred to a thousand words. I don’t have one standard word format throughout the site. I ask them to write until they think the subject is covered enough that it would give a good read. Sometimes it’s five or six hundred words, other times it’s eight hundred, a thousand, twelve hundred words and a couple of articles are like three thousand words. David Jenyns: It sounds like user optimization, giving the user something of value as opposed to just creating some gateway spam pages. Marc Lindsay: Yes. And don’t get me wrong, unless you want to talk them gateway spam pages, I tend to call them search engine fodder, same thing, they have their uses. You can set up sites very quickly and you can monitor an industry on whether it’s going to worth going into without investing a lot of time and effort into it. But I just say that for a site that I know is going to be a very big asset to my company or to the future, I like to set it up firstly with base level content and then I’ll usually end up going back and totally rewriting it. When you’re getting two to three hundred pages written I’d rather start it off on a base level rather than pay, because a good piece of content can cost you a lot of money, some of my content I can pay $70 or $80 per article. That’s where it needs to be industry specific, really high quality. They will decimate you if you don’t have it right and they will point it out. So I start off with cheaper content for sites and I put a lot of pages out there and I see what comes back. If I start to get a lot of traffic and a lot of interest on that then I know that by increasing the quality of that site, by increasing the quality of the content, I can bring back more visitors and get an even higher response and higher result from that website. Then if we’re skipping straight over to off page I basically follow a concept now which in part is in alignment with our algorithm that we use to find our own pages to rank. Basically it is the main phrase or the ego keyword as I call it is not the phrase you want to start going for straight away. Plan for the very top end but start with the very bottom. If you’ve got the content in there, the very first pages you want to start optimizing are the ones that have the best opportunity for you to get rankings quickly. I tend to do a percentage work split. Let’s say I have a hundred points in work. It can be broke down however you like. I’ll usually say I have in the first three months between 30-40% of the work will go for the main level phrase which is going to be the ego word, the biggest payoff from. It doesn’t have to be an ego word, it can be, for example, a very good buying keyword but it might be a longer end target. You might not be able to get there very quickly. It might take you a long time to get there. In that case that falls under the same thing as the end result keyword, the desired keyword, or the ego keyword, meaning the keyword you can boast the most about. So only put 30-40% into the set of ego keywords and then the other 60-70% goes fully into individual pages and the long tail. That’s where I know you’ll get the quickest wins in the first three months. That is by far where you’ll get the most out of it. So that’s what we do. Then what we do is we come to the three month point and we usually flip it. So we’ll start targeting, or start taking it down a bit as we start targeting towards the higher end phrase and a little less on the lower tail phrase to start reversing and bringing out the main phrase quicker. Usually what I find here, especially if you’re going to a competitive market and you want to be a little bit tactical about it is by the time you start to flip the work and go for the large phrase you start to see not only the large phrase but almost all the intermediate phrases come to the first page round about the same time if you plan it right. Now what this means is if you hit the page really early for a big level phrase, your competition finds out about you really quickly and they’ll come and they’ll hunt you down, find out what’s going and if they can they’ll put you out of business. This is of course in cut throat industries. It’s not the same in small niche industries, but it can be something to worry about later. Especially if you have something that is unique to you as far as a business process and you’re still trying to capture ground for the market share, if they see someone come to the market very early with something that they haven’t done yet, usually they can effect that change and do the same thing before you can get a front page ranking or before you can capture enough of the market share. So by focusing on everything other then the main phrase you build everything they’re not looking at every day. If someone’s there for an ego phrase, they’re searching that main phrase every day to see where they are, or just because they can because that’s why it’s an ego phrase. They’re not looking in the long tail phrases, they’re not looking for all the variations. By coming up for the variations and then the main phrase, it’s what I call market domination before they realize you’ve jumped up behind them. They realize you’re on the first page for that phrase so they start looking more. They say, oh, he’s everywhere. So before they’ve even had a chance you’ve ninjad out of nowhere. David Jenyns: I like the idea of building the strength up on those longer tail words. That’s going to feed through to your ego keyword. You’ve got all your on page optimization linking structure set up correctly so all that’s feeding in. When someone does see, oh, he’s taken my ego keyword, when they go to try and reverse engineer what it is that you’ve done, it makes it a lot harder. You’ve got a lot stronger structure there holding up that ego keyword. Marc Lindsay: Yes, especially if people have a lot to their main pages, it’s very easy to look at it and instantly say, yes, I know exactly what he’s doing. But if someone has a tool that’s maybe not as smart as some other tools and it doesn’t pick up links to pages as well, or they’re having to analyze it, they’re trying to analyze that. They’re looking around and seeing keywords coming in for other phrases but not for the main phrase and it can throw them off. You really brought home something there that I would reinforce and that is, by working on the longer tail phrases, you’re still always working towards whatever the highest subset of that keyword is, as long as you’ve got your flow correct in your website and your site structure. So even though you’re working on the smaller phrases, it all helps on the main phrase. I’ll give you an example of this. If you’re coming into a competitive industry and it’s a large phrase or the ego keyword usually it doesn’t matter what you do you won’t be able to get to that first page for that keyword for a certain amount of time, depending on whether Google decides it’s raining or sunny today. So whilst everyone starts with that main phrase and they keep going and going, and you can get there pretty quickly for it but it still does take playtime to get out of the old sandpit. If instead you’re bolstering all your supporting phrases in that time period, when you actually go to start working on that main phrase, it’s a lot more ROI positive use of work. The reason I bring it back to ROI positive is you could waste a lot of inventory, you could waste a lot of resources trying to get that main phrase work and not necessarily move ahead any quicker than if you were to start and get all of your long tail phrases ranked. Then when it comes time to rank for your ego keyword you already have such a good structure there and such a good founding, that any work into that is actually a much more ROI positive work because you actually already have traffic, you have rankings for all your other phrases. You have keyword diversity and you have site authority that it just comes up much quicker than it normally would. David Jenyns: Yes, and I think as well if you go for those longer tail keywords, depending on what you’re trying to push, you’re going to be making sales, and that’s going to help further pay for the SEO work and the resources required to go for that ego keyword. If you go just straight for that primary keyword, it might be incredibly hard to get. So I agree. It’s better to go for those long tail first. Marc Lindsay: Yes, absolutely. So that’s the off page plan that we follow as far as how we direct all of our work. It’s very effective, it works and it’s a good use of resources. You’re not wasting anything. David Jenyns: Those links that you’re sending back to the different pages as well, like the anchor text that you’re using for that, obviously you’re using the keyword that you’re trying to rank for. Do you put any variation in there as well? Marc Lindsay: I do, yes. It depends how many I’ve got going into the individual page. If I have a lot I use more variation but I always tend to go for around about the top five that would be relevant to that individual page. David Jenyns: And then where are you sending these links from when you’re actually doing that? Marc Lindsay: You have to go through a process always depending on where you’re getting your links from. I know we do a lot of tracking and a lot testing to find out what is the most efficient spend of resources based on output provided. You can go and get a link built that will cost you time wise, and therefore time is money, more to actually get done rather than a link that good be quicker to get done based on time. The overall effect of that means you can get more out and you can have a larger increased overall benefit rather than getting ones that cost more time to get. Basically to put that in really simple terms, high quality links versus low quality links. It’s probably one of the largest things that people are worried about, is should I be building really high quality links to my site or really low quality links? David Jenyns: So what’s the answer? Marc Lindsay: If I put my good hat on, that says you need to be always building towards future sustainability of your website. David Jenyns: Sounds like a text book definition there. Marc Lindsay: Yes. Since we’re all here to be getting good tactics, to start with you need to be building more than one type of link to your website. That means if you’re only doing article submissions, stop. Start finding something else you can do as well, because the larger the profile of links that you’re building to your website the less change can happen to your website if Google decides to devalue a type of link. So that’s just like 101 for me. If you’re building with one type then you need to be building with multiple types. 102 says to me go with what works for the least required investment of time. To me that is anything to do with article submissions is a very good use of time still, niche specific directories and even non-niche specific directories, as long as they’re one way links, and I’ll make that as a clarification, it’s still a very good use of time. There’s a lot of social book marking and whatnot I use only as an indexing tool, not as a ranking tool. WordPress comments are still very effective, although I tend to do it with proper writers who write the comments for it so I get more acceptance there. They would be the easiest use of time and resources that would give the largest benefit or the largest payoff. Now obviously other things that come in very good require a bit more time to do. there’s traditional link hunting, which means you need to go out and look for people within the top thirty results for vertical industries or industries that are related to yours but not in competition with yours. That can be an extremely effective way to get links and basically you can offer them a high quality piece of content or some sort of mutual benefit to both. Usually it’s a high quality piece of the content because then they get content on their site and you get a link back to your website. Other ways that are a little bit more creative is to create tools in your industry or to create super high quality content that has a high spreadablity factor so people will want to spread that content around. Create tools that can go viral as far as blog badges and things like that. I usually don’t talk too much about that because it does require quite a substantial amount of effort and a certain type of site to actually do that on. Usually you don’t want to just do it on a basic niche website. For that sort of thing you’re going to be doing some of what I deem the lower quality methods. The only reason I define them as lower quality is that they’re cheap and quick. If anything takes longer to do then, in most cases it’s higher quality but I’ve seen some people put out some work that is more expensive and takes longer to do and it’s certainly not higher quality. David Jenyns: You talked about quite a few different strategies there that you do use. I know that you guys are pretty systematized over at the LTSEO headquarters, If we were going to break it down even more, and I know this is digging quite deep into your business, if a client comes on board, what’s the first method of links you go after, second method, third method? I know it will vary depending on the niche you’re going after and the type of competition you’re going up against. Where do you start? Marc Lindsay: It’s all base knowledge. Everybody knows all this stuff. You know this, every other person who’s in SEO knows it so I can tell you exactly the kind of links that are built. The power doesn’t actually come from knowing how to build the link. The power comes from having a systematic process that you can replicate time and time again. David Jenyns: That right there is gold for anyone who’s listening. Marc Lindsay: That is where it comes from. I could sit here and we could rattle SEO all day and give the most important facts away, but nobody would be able to replicate it unless they can come up with a system that they can follow that guarantees that the work gets done on a consistent basis and moves their site forward. They need to be constantly seeking and looking for new phrases and new ways to promote their site within that structure. Having said that here are the immediate ones that jump to mind. We have an A-team who basically do research on all the new types of things that they can be doing, test them for validity, if they actually make an effect. That’s quite nice. They come up with ideas now and then before the rest of the market does. Obviously I can’t talk about those, but they’re quick win stuff, it’s not a long term strategy for those. They are usually a little be edgier. They’re things that I’ll use on my own sites. I keep all my clients’ sites on stuff that’s been around a long time and has been well trialed and well tested. It’s not what I use for client work, it’s what I test and play around with. Having said that, feeder sites from as many of the Web 2.0 sources as you can actively get your hands on. Some of them no follow their links, some of them don’t, you’ll have to look at those. I don’t manage which ones do and don’t any more. I have other people who do that. Forum posting – find forums that are specific to your industry. Almost all of them allow you to have a footer link in that. You mentioned the Warrior Forum. I know they used to let you have a footer link in there and in that footer link you can have an anchor rich link in there. There is article posting, both unique to EzineArticles and also to our own article distribution network. One way back links from sites, usually from site specific directories. You run a site on dog training and you have a partner’s page on there. David Jenyns: You mentioned Web 2.0, you’ve got some forums and ezines and some directories. I know you guys have a full team over there. You say, here’s a client we’re promoting, you get your keyword research done, liase with the client, get them to know what strategy you’re about to do, they give you the all clear, you pass it back to the team and say let’s promote this. Each one of these things you mentioned, do you start building all in one go and do you try and stagger it out? Do you have a system down to the point where you say right, I want you to build ten Web 2.0 pages on a variety of things. I want you to make twenty posts on these different forums, I want you to submit twenty articles to Ezine or whatever. Do you have it down to that granular point? Marc Lindsay: Yes, absolutely. I do, but you know what? It’s based quite simply on how much the client’s paying me. That varies from site to site and it varies based on the size of the plan. While a site may need x amount of quantity of work, sometimes the client’s not prepared to pay for x amount of quantity so I go to them and say, looks it’s not personally what I’d be doing on your website, but having said that, this is what you want, this is what I can deliver for it. Then you go through the delivery process. It breaks down however you like. I can definitely tell you I am weighted more towards what is more effective to be done, and as I’ve stated before, what is most effective is going to be the quick win links at least within the first twelve months. After twelve months we change to a slightly different tune or a slightly different method for those sites and follow a bit of a different thing. Something we always like to do is constantly measure and weigh the return on investment for what’s being spent. That doesn’t always come from getting that site ranked. It might get to a point where you’re covering a lot of the industry and to go for extra phrases just to get more traffic to the site that may not be higher converting traffic. Then you have to say, hold on, as an SEO company do I offer to start setting up related websites so they can gain more exposure on the first page? Or what do I do nest so I can help them get the best ROI on what they’re spending? So it’s not always just a matter of just what keywords need to be ranked and what links need to be ranked? We take a bit more of a higher view from a business perspective than just an SEO perspective. Sometimes it is a better ROI or a better use of resources to then set up a totally new site that is specific to just one area of what they offer. David Jenyns: You mentioned you obviously weight a lot of your time and a lot of what you work on to those methods you’re getting the biggest bang for your buck for. I know that it’s important that we spread out our links and we never just want to go for one particular type of link. But if you had to pick, just for argument’s sake, where you get the best bang for your buck on links, where do you go? Marc Lindsay: It’s going to sound so cliche but it’s got to be my own service. It’s got to be the article site. David Jenyns: We can lead into this. I mention this to my clients. Marc is the guy behind AMA, Article Marketing Automation, and it is a fantastic service and I know is being picked up left, right and centre. Can you tell us a little bit about what it is, what it does? Marc Lindsay: Yes, absolutely. It is a user created blog network. Every site that is in the network and a site is a WordPress site that takes on content, is created by users. This means there is a very large spread of hosts and IP addresses and who is information and all the rest and is an important thing to have. Basically users enter their site in their, they’re looking to distribute content for other people, they provide their users or readers with more content to read or look or comment on. They add it in there because they’re looking for actual content. Maybe they’re setting up a feeder site or maybe they’re testing out an industry and they want to get content related to that industry to see how it flies. As an actual poster or an article distributor you’ll log into your system and you’ll put an article into the system and go through a spinning process that you can have every version of the article that goes out unique, and for that you get to place a link in your article anywhere within the body of the test. There are no footprints for it, and your article is slowly fed out over sixty days to the sites and the network that are looking for content on that category. So it means that you’re basically get in content links anywhere between 120 -240 websites for each article you put out. And you can also automatically have it so that you vary the anchor text link that goes to each one by using spinning methods and what not. So it is extremely effective at what it does and that’s always my first place I start off with. The reason I start off with that, and this is for my personal sites here, my clients’ sites I don’t go so heavy on that. The reason is if a client’s paying me for work and they see that I offer a service that is for the internet marketing industry or for just general article publishers and they see that it is $47 per month, they instantly say why am I paying xyz for work that is $47 per month? They don’t even have to think about the fact of all the other work they get for it. For my clients, the AMA is just bonus work, it’s not even in the charge, it’s not in the fee, it’s in none of that. I put any article I get into that system because I own and operate it. I’ve just found regardless of what you show, the image has been formed, and they’re not entirely happy about it. It does depend on the client too. Some people are willing and happy just to leave everything in your hands knowing you’re the best at what you do, and they go on with it. Some clients will want to have a bit more of in depth control over it for whatever reason. They may have had a bad experience or they need to be satisfied with every single point. At the end of the day that’s what we have to do for them. So if you’ve got your own sites, I use it for every single one of mine. I think the stats now are something like 45% of all links promoted in the network have a page one ranking in Google and the total up to top three page ranking in Google is something like 78% of the entire network. David Jenyns: How many pages are we talking, that are in the network? Marc Lindsay: I’m talking about individual links promoted to individual sites. I’d have to check the stats on what that is, but we’re edging on 18,000 or something like that. David Jenyns: That’s really impressive. Marc Lindsay: That’s like you and me putting our sites in there to get them ranked. Total content distributed is around 4.6 million articles or versions of articles. David Jenyns: That’s definitely impressive and I think the chats that we’ve had about what’s been going on behind the back end, the way you monitor your stats and that sort of stuff is extremely impressive. The biggest thing a lot of people worry about with blog networks is the ability of someone to be able to somehow reverse engineer where these links are coming from and then say, oh these somehow linked as a network and that whole network go down. We’ve seen that happen before. What sort of methods and structures do you have in place to keep AMA from going that way? Marc Lindsay: To start with, AMA is a user run network. For Google to put a footprint on the whole network would a) be very difficult to do, because we don’t submit to the entire network ever whereas most sites will let you submit junk to the entire network or they sell page rank which is definitely not what we do. That’s the first point. The second point is there is quality control in it. It’s up to the publisher whether or not to automatically accept content or not. They do have a manual process if they want it. They can reject content if it’s not up to standard. The third thing is a few things that we want to have come into place for community control over article quality. I’ll just leave it at that for the moment because it is not out yet. David Jenyns: Definitely keep an eye on it. If someone wants to check out more, they can go to theseomethod.com/ama and they can find out more about that. I’ve got a final couple of questions to finish up on. I wanted to find out your thoughts on going after big niches versus little niches. I know you have a whole variety of clients that you take on. You do go after some really big niches. Do big niches scare you at all? Marc Lindsay: No, not at all. I love it. Give me the top level. If it’s worth it for me, I’ll go for it. At the end of the day, it comes down to confidence and resources. I never used to be able to do that. It does come down to working within a lot of industries and just being smart about it. Sometimes it’s not always best to start with the largest spot in there. Sometimes you can make a lot of money by going for the niche specific to start with. A perfect example is poker. If you want to go for poker tips or poker advice or poker on line it is a very big industry. If you want to go for an individual program and do a review site just around that program you’ll have a much better chance of getting rankings for that program than the whole poker industry. There’s a lot of money. In that case I’m not scared to go for a big one. It depends on exactly what the product is and where it targets to start with. If their site is already in a big industry then usually I’ll max out that site. If you start on an authority site or a large site, you usually end up niching that down into a specific in another site. Once you’ve done as much as you can on that site sometimes it’s better to then start releasing niche specific versions of the same concept. If you’re starting out and you’re not sure where you want to start, niche it down. Go really specific because you’ll get the best win out of it. Let’s say you’re doing a product based website around, say, mosquito spray. You take a look in what’s available and you can see that there is Enviroguard as an example, or whatever a brand name happens to be. What you want to do is you’ll target your site entirely around mosquito repellent as a phrase, and then you want to break down as much as possible for the content of your site into the individual types of mosquito repellent and the longer tail phrases. So really niche it down into hitting the specifics for it because you’ll give yourself the best chance possible to win. That’s what it’s all about early on. The more you win early on, the more confidence you have in yourself and the more likely you are to tackle larger industries and go forward. Having said that, a failure is never a failure as long as you learn from it. It’s only truly a failure if you don’t get the lesson out of it. David Jenyns: Excellent. I suppose leading in from that we talk about getting rankings and that sort of thing, where do you see opportunity for getting easy rankings. You talked about going for a lot of those longer tail keywords. Are there any points on where you see easy rankings? Can you perhaps comment on using video to rank for keywords? Marc Lindsay: Yes. Like you said, video is a very easy way to get a top level position on that first page. Google will usually have a position there just for video. Most people don’t do optimization for their videos and optimizing for videos is just like optimizing for a site. Pick the right phrase for the url and all the rest of that. More importantly point the right links at the thing. We include an easy way to do that within the Article Marketing Services at the link Dave mentioned before. You can also do it with any other link building method as well. In saying that videos are a very easy way to get ranked and if you have the right video there it will give you an opportunity almost to pre sell them into your service. Unfortunately while it is a very quick and easy way to do it, I find that it doesn’t necessarily lead me to sales. At the end of the day I want sales. A video is perfect for pre selling a product. So if they come in they hit your YouTube video, they go to the YouTube and they go through and they take a look at it no worries, they like what they see they have an opportunity to click on the right side of your link. But see here how we’re sending them to YouTube? They go to YouTube, they can get lost, they can start watching videos. There is a tag that you can add into your own pages that specify a video. So if you’re using that tag and you’ve got video embedded in your own page, you can actually use tags that specify and identify that content as video content. You can say hey, Google, when you spider this page, this one’s a video. Your video will show up like a normal YouTube video would in the results. David Jenyns: I’ll definitely have to have a look into that. Marc Lindsay: Yes, so you need to take a look into that. Basically it shows, even when it’s listed down there it will show up and it just looks like a video listing in there. So you get very high click throughs and you get all the good stuff that comes with that. But otherwise very easy rankings is anything that has a huge list of products in it, aka e commerce. E commerce stores I just love them. You can’t beat them. David Jenyns: The amount of pages as well. We’ve got one or two e commerce stores for our own stuff. You were talking about going for buying phrases. When you’ve got the product name, and the person is typing that into Google and you’ve optimized for that keyword that user is a qualified person who is ready to buy. They’re not someone saying, digital cameras, they’re saying Sony camera XPF 654. Marc Lindsay: Exactly. It’s the most qualified you can get. It’s also very easy to put in qualifiers in the footer of your store that instantly add another whole plethora of phrases. Qualifiers can be pre or post qualifiers for the keyword, or even locality. You can do some nice tricky stuff with an e commerce store. You can put now delivering xyz and have the product name inserted there too. Then if you’re in Australia, all around Australia but also too, Sydney, Perth, Northern Territory, Darwin and the main localities there and will instantly add to every single page all locality based phrases as well. David Jenyns: Yes there are definitely huge opportunities there and I think that is an area where still I don’t think there is enough attention focused in on those e commerce sites. I know having chatted with you with some of the clients’ niches you’ve gone after it’s astounding to hear some of the results you can get. You can get those from what seems like quite an obscure niche but you can dig incredibly deeply into that niche. Marc Lindsay: To be honest while we’re on the topic, you have to start somewhere always. If you can’t get into e commerce don’t get discouraged. Build up whatever you can to get to the point where you have the connections, you have the context and the confidence to get into any industry you want. For me if I was to hedge where we do place our bets so to speak online now it is in e commerce, lead generation and high level affiliates or industries with a lot of traffic and usually on an authority site. basis. David Jenyns: Yes. Talk about going full circle and we go all the way back to where we were talking about planning out, mapping out the domain name, the keywords you’re going to go after and getting that structure right. That goes full circle, and I think if you go into any one of those three areas, the e commerce, lead generation or any high level affiliate stuff, you’re going to position yourself to succeed. This is the perfect time to lead out towards the end of the call. I know you’re one of the guys I listen to when it comes to SEO. I’m interested to know who you listen to. In the SEO world when you’re keeping a pulse on what’s going on. Marc Lindsay: That’s a really good question. Look I don’t have anyone I follow anymore. I base my learning on results. This is for everything I do. I’m always building a resource. I’m building it for the resource. I’m not necessarily building it for the initial input. For example my entire SEO company is not based round offering an SEO service. I am not an SEO company. I’m a media company. Our SEO company is actually more like a lead generation company that we get paid an exceptional amount from businesses that need our services. But it’s a lead generation company to find businesses that 1) are serious and 2) have a good back end and product offering. Out of that few select, we’ll find a certain amount of companies that want to strike equity deals with us. And they want us to become their front end marketing arm. That’s where we drive a lot of power from. How it gets to that is because our SEO company is just a really neat way to get paid for building a resource. As I build up more and more clients and I can look across 120 websites at any point because I’m a tracking freak. We track every link built, the time it was built, the site it was built to, the anchor text that was built, where it’s coming from, all that is built so I can see an exact snapshot of when that happened. By having the resource and owning the resource I can do analysis on exactly what’s happening in an industry at any second. I can see what’s happening I don’t have to hazard a guess. The one thing I read religiously is called SE News, searchenginenews.com. It comes into my mailbox, and it was recommended to me. David Jenyns: Do you have any other people that you admire not necessarily follow who you respect what it is they do in SEO? Marc Lindsay: I’ve learnt from a lot of people. If you talk about, admire, respect and look to now, it’s a different question to people who I learnt from. It depends what the question is. There are plenty of SEO smarts in the industry. A long time ago I took myself out of the game of chasing and following and put myself into the game of actioning and doing. When I started to do that it’s quite funny how quickly your results start to change but it also means I lost a little bit of touch with that side of the industry. There’s always Leslie Rohde and Dan Thies of SEO Fast Start. SEO Fast Start is one of the best starting bases. I say starting because it will just give you a nice solid overview for it. It won’t give you the motivation and the in depth content that we’re talking about now and that you have in your course. But he’s really good at what he does. Leslie Rohde I think is very good from the technical point of view. There are individuals like that that I can look at from a specific point of view but to be honest I’m getting a lot more from the conversion industry than I am from the SEO industry. There’s only a certain level you can take SEO to. Once you get to level where you can dominate any industry and have it on an automated process, well, who do I look up to? I’m not saying I’m at the top by far. I’m still learning all the time with it but it then becomes you gain and drive knowledge from looking back on how plans have gone and how results have been achieved and by analyzing that. That’s where you get information from, that’s where you find out from. I do like anything from SEOmoz, anything to do with viral linkbaiting. To me that’s like an awesome use of resource. Anywhere I can find stuff like that, I don’t have a specific one, but I know I get a lot of that from SEOmoz. Like I said searchenginenews.com is enough to keep me up to date with just search engine changes, not so much tactics but more about what’s changing in the industry, what’s news, what’s not, what’s happening. They have some nice resources there as well. When it comes down to tactics and tips it all comes down to call like these. Once you get to a certain level you’ll start meeting people in you industry, you’ll start discussing what’s working and what’s not and you’ll start analyzing your own results. You’re definitely someone to watch. If people want to find out more about the AMA service they can head over to the seomethod.com/ama. If they want to find out more about you Marc, where should they go to find you? Marc Lindsay: You can go to ltseo.com.au. That’s our corporate level site. We’re doing a lot of changes at the moment to how we’re doping our more internet marketing. Perhaps I’ll give you a link when we’ve actually sorted that out to give a place that people can go to that will be more in line with how we do things now. David Jenyns: I’d like to thank you very much for your time. I do appreciate every time we get on the line and I know anyone who listens to this call is going to get a lot of value from it. So thank you. I do appreciate it. Marc Lindsay: Thanks Dave. Thanks for having me, it’s been fun. Download Marc Lindsay Interview | Marc Lindsay Videos | Marc Lindsay Podcast | Marc Lindsay Review | Marc Lindsay MP3 Did You Enjoy This Interview?   Start following PodcastInterviews.com and get all the latest interviews free! The post Marc Lindsay Interview appeared first on Business Growth Strategies With Podcast Interviews.
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