0:00

M h, what's

0:21

up everybody. Welcome to another episode

0:23

of one hundred Words or Less the podcast.

0:26

And this isn't just another episode. I

0:28

honestly can't even believe it's happening, mostly because

0:31

of the guests that we have on today. He

0:33

is a guy. He is named Dan Carlin.

0:36

He is the host of a podcast

0:38

called Common Sense, as well as a

0:40

host of a podcast called Hardcore History.

0:43

He's definitely a left of centered guest

0:45

for this particular show, just because

0:47

obviously, we you know, tend to speak to people

0:50

in you know, bands and that sort

0:52

of stuff. So anytime I'm able to pull someone

0:54

in that has a connection to independent

0:57

music that falls out of this scene, I

0:59

get so excited to bring

1:01

it to you because the feedback I get, Like, you

1:03

know, for example, whatever, a couple episodes

1:05

ago, we interviewed Roman Mars and

1:08

he's a host of another podcast called Not a Percent

1:10

in Visible. The amount of feedback I got on that

1:12

show was amazing because

1:14

you had people such as you know, maybe yourself,

1:16

who is a regular listener of the show, and it's like, Hey, I

1:18

got exposed to this awesome thing and I never

1:21

even knew this existed. I love to get that

1:23

feedback. And then there's also people that

1:25

poke in and go, oh hey,

1:27

I'm a fan of of Roman Mars already.

1:30

I didn't even know your podcast existed. It's

1:32

incredible. It's a two way street. I love to have

1:34

that. And so anyways, more on Dan

1:36

Carlin in a minute. Let's get into some other stuff. Property

1:39

Zack dot Com obviously for those of you who

1:41

use the Internet, which is all of you, because that's

1:43

what you're doing with this podcast right now, So visit

1:46

them. They got all the latest and greatest on music news.

1:48

So I dove into this article

1:50

recently. Um, there is

1:52

the technology magazine

1:55

called Wired. What are the co founders of it? Is this

1:57

guy named Kevin Kelly, and uh, I've

1:59

heard of his name before war, but hadn't really explored

2:01

much of his work. Tripped onto his website via

2:03

an interview I heard of his on another

2:06

podcast. He mentioned just it was

2:08

kind of a throwaway thing. But he's like, oh, yeah, I wrote this

2:10

article called you know, a thousand true fan, and

2:12

uh went to his website and kind of looked into

2:14

it, and uh, you know this the

2:17

idea that is contained within his posting

2:22

is it revolutionary? Because a lot of people have spoken

2:24

about the sort of long tail effect where it's like,

2:26

Okay, you don't need to appeal to everybody

2:29

in order to be successful. It's like, you know, the

2:31

the concept of making sure that

2:33

the people that are into you will you

2:36

know, go anywhere by anything,

2:38

do anything for you to keep you doing

2:40

what you're doing, whether it's a band,

2:42

whether it's you know, a stand up comedian, whatever

2:45

creative art that you are are involved in.

2:47

And so I've always known myself

2:49

because it's a concept that I I've

2:52

you know, I'm trying to stick true to because what

2:54

we've developed here is awesome, Like you know,

2:56

I mean, straight up, we get anywhere between

2:58

ten to twenty download per episode

3:01

of this show. It's it's awesome because I

3:03

get a lot of cool interactions from people,

3:05

uh, such as yourself who's listening right now, who

3:07

either suggest guests or contribute

3:09

to the show toss a review on iTunes.

3:12

It is so enjoyable for me to do this

3:14

that I would love if you the listener,

3:16

were to turn this into my job, because

3:18

you know, I work at a job I do other things

3:21

that actually I do many other

3:23

things in order to facilitate me

3:25

having the lifestyle to be able to speak

3:28

to these people and kind of get entry

3:30

points into who they are and

3:32

why independent music and d I

3:34

Y culture is important to them. So I'm just encouraging

3:37

you. If you find any value in this show, contribute,

3:39

go to the right side of the website one

3:42

words podcast dot com and toss

3:44

a dollar, toss two dollars. I don't care. But

3:47

the more of you that do that, If it's

3:49

just a fraction of you that contribute

3:51

a dollar or two dollars, this will start to

3:54

grow and I may be able to be put

3:56

in a position where it's like, dude, you're gonna be getting

3:58

two shows a week. You're gonna be getting a lot

4:00

more cool stuff from me. So

4:02

anyways, that was just a sort of rallying cry.

4:04

I wanted to kind of put that in your head, share

4:07

to you kind of a behind the scenes like

4:09

where my head is at. I would love to do this as a

4:11

full time endeavor, and the sort of

4:13

feedback that I have gotten from

4:15

you people kind of it leads

4:18

me to believe that you would love more

4:20

stuff from that perspective. So anyways, I just

4:22

wanted to put that out there, and uh, if you also

4:24

are feeling so inclined, you can go to

4:26

the website one hundred words podcast dot

4:28

com and there's an email newsletter. I send it

4:30

out once a week. It basically just kind of recaps

4:33

the shows, the sort of behind the scenes

4:35

stuff I recommend cool things. Um

4:38

now we have I don't know, like close to a hundred people signed

4:40

up to that thing, so it's awesome. It's it tends

4:42

to grow, so spread the word about that and sign

4:45

up. And I have to mention a few

4:47

people who have donated and left some

4:49

reviews on iTunes. A person from Great

4:51

Britain who I'm not even going to attempt to read the user

4:53

name, said that I thoroughly enjoyed discovering

4:56

new people, bands and artists that I

4:58

wasn't familiar with before. That's awesome.

5:00

And then a person named Jack Chapman dove

5:02

into the iTunes and left

5:05

a five star review thank you very much, said

5:08

that he really really recommends this show

5:10

to everybody, and so it's great because

5:12

people that go to the iTunes page look

5:14

at these reviews and they're like, Okay, this is legit. I

5:16

can trust this, So thank you very much. Enough

5:19

of the plugging, So Dan Carlin honestly

5:21

was astonished that I was able to get this interview. The

5:23

dude is super busy. The hardcore history

5:25

podcast. Just to put it in perspective, it's,

5:28

you know, continually one of the top podcasts

5:30

and iTunes. It is so well respected

5:32

amongst its fans, uh,

5:35

the academic community because basically

5:37

what he does, he does like a four hour show

5:39

on a particular either

5:42

event, a world war, a

5:45

luminary within that historical

5:47

context. It's amazing and the

5:50

sort of in depth work that he does

5:53

in regards to reporting on that specific

5:55

time is unbelievable. Even if you

5:58

have a passing interest in history,

6:00

you will love what he does. And

6:03

it's just granted, is intimidating because you're

6:05

like, dude, four or four and a half hours, Like, that's a lot

6:07

of time. I've listened to almost every single

6:10

one and it is absolutely incredible.

6:12

He is worth all of your time

6:14

investing into it. So anyways, needless

6:17

to say, I kind of heard him do an

6:19

interview and he alluded to the fact

6:21

that you know, he was raised kind of in the punk

6:23

rock scene of the early eighties, and I was like,

6:25

really, like, this isn't just your

6:27

your sort of typical dude who kind of like

6:29

you know, is a is a bookworm and likes to

6:32

talk about history. This guy has a has

6:34

a rich past within the punk

6:37

and and independent music that we

6:39

obviously all love so much. So I just

6:41

sent a cold the email was like, hey, would you

6:43

be interested in this? And his assistant

6:46

got back to me and it's like, yeah, this is something

6:48

that he would be really interested in talking about because no

6:50

one speaks to him about this. I was so

6:53

stoked, so straight up, this was the most

6:55

nervous I've ever been to do an interview. I

6:57

didn't know what to expect. I mean, I knew that he was going

6:59

to be I used to accommodating because obviously he agreed

7:02

to it, but yeah, I didn't know where

7:04

this conversation would head and if he would

7:06

have if he would feel comfortable revealing

7:09

certain things about himself that he just doesn't talk about.

7:11

So he was so awesome and I

7:13

felt, yeah, I felt a kinship after

7:15

we had spoke, and it was cool because he was

7:17

like, I can only do about thirty minutes. We were on

7:19

the phone for about almost an hour, and

7:22

I could tell that he was completely enjoying

7:24

himself. So that in and of itself is a compliment

7:26

to the conversation that we were having. So anyways,

7:29

without further ado, here is my conversation

7:31

with Dan, and I will talk to me about yeah,

7:53

because I said speaks of which is my own personal

7:55

sort of introduction to you and what you were

7:57

doing. As usual with most good

7:59

pot casts, they kind of, you know, start to bubble

8:01

up to the surface, and you know, friends recommend

8:04

other shows to friends, and so a friend

8:06

of mine who had already been listening to hardcore History,

8:08

was like, Ray, I think you would really enjoy this show

8:11

basically is history but

8:13

in context. And it was just like that little

8:15

snippet of like, oh yeah, Like

8:17

I that that is meaningful to me because obviously,

8:20

in the age of the Internet, everything is devoid of context.

8:22

So I presume the

8:24

inception of both you know, common sense

8:27

and obviously hardcore history, is that you wanted to paint

8:29

a more comprehensive picture

8:31

or was that even just kind of an afterthought

8:34

or a byproduct of of your original

8:36

purpose? By product because I thought

8:38

we were going to be talking to

8:41

history nuts and people who already understood

8:43

the context. So I hadn't planned to

8:46

involve a whole life. As a matter of fact, when we started,

8:48

I had just thought we would talk about the weirdness

8:51

of any given story, assuming

8:53

that the audience knew about the

8:55

story. So like in the first one, I think we talked about

8:57

Alexander the Great and out off

8:59

hit and we used it to kind of question,

9:02

you know, views of good and evil over time

9:04

and whatnot, And we didn't really

9:07

tell you much about either one of those individuals.

9:09

We assumed you were gonna know, you know, um,

9:12

And it was only over time that I realized

9:14

that people were listening who like what we

9:16

were saying, but needed the context for

9:18

it all kind of come together, So we

9:20

evolved to that. I can't claim that that was ever a part

9:22

of the plan. Yeah, well, no, that's good because

9:25

as in any good piece of quote unquote

9:27

art, uh, you know, the original context

9:29

in which it's you know, created, usually

9:32

ends up not being what it is what it's finished.

9:35

So the you know, the main reason that I wanted

9:37

to have you on is because obviously people you know,

9:39

know you from the the podcasting

9:41

realm and the sort of you know, his historian

9:43

realm. But what kind of really made

9:45

my ears perk up in regards to a selfish

9:48

purpose and having you on my show was

9:50

so you were doing the Tim Ferris podcast, which

9:52

I really enjoyed that episode, and towards the

9:54

end of the show, it was kind of a I wouldn't even

9:56

say a throwaway comment, but you were just mentioning

9:58

the fact that, uh, you know, I think he asked

10:00

what music you're listening to, and you're just like, oh,

10:03

I'm you know, I'm kind of stuck in my old ways

10:05

and you know, I'm an old punk rock guy and

10:07

like loved Dead Kennedy's. And I was like, holy

10:10

sh it, that's incredible because,

10:12

like we were saying before we recording, you

10:14

know, that sort of music and that scene

10:17

foster such a you know, an

10:19

independent train of thought. And so

10:21

yeah, where did music kind of first into your life

10:23

to begin with? You know, good question. Um,

10:26

I think the first time. You know, when kids

10:28

grow up, you go from kid music to adult

10:31

music at some point. And I remember

10:33

I was a kid and we were in the library, and back

10:35

then, the library would lend out

10:38

record albums and so you know, as

10:40

a kid, I didn't have to buy one. And I think I was probably

10:43

uh eight or nine, and

10:45

it was Beatles albums. They had Beatles

10:47

albums at the library, and so I think I transitioned

10:50

from kid music to adult music

10:52

with Beatles albums and um,

10:55

and it kind of went from there. But but music

10:57

didn't really speak to me until

11:00

the late seventies. I mean, I

11:02

remember I had my first real

11:05

sort of grown up kind of party as a kid,

11:07

a birthday party in middle school. And this would

11:09

have been in like, I don't know, seventy eight

11:11

or something, and everybody was given record

11:14

albums to to me, and it was like Foreigner

11:17

and it was all and Peter Frampton,

11:20

and I just remember having no connection to

11:22

that music whatsoever. I mean

11:24

for me that I mean led Zeppelin, the Rolling Stones,

11:27

that's a different thing. But but the kind of music

11:29

that the seventies were producing when

11:31

I was like twelve, just a kiss.

11:33

It just didn't do anything for me. When

11:35

I first heard what we called, we didn't

11:37

even have a name for it. When I first heard

11:39

it a new wave we started calling some of

11:41

it. It was the first time I heard music and kind of

11:44

went, wow, you know, I kind of really like that. I relate

11:46

to that, and so it was very different from me.

11:48

It try as I might I couldn't get into foreigner

11:51

right right, Where where

11:53

were you at the time, Like location wise, I'm

11:55

from Los Angeles. I was in Los Angeles,

11:57

So the valley San Fernando Valley probably

12:00

Woodland Hills or something like that. Yeah, sure, sure,

12:03

because yeah, no, I mean you bring up a very important point.

12:05

It's like that that music was not quote

12:08

unquote defined as of yet, so it was

12:10

just this sort of outlier of like, Okay,

12:12

you have your stuff that's on the radio or that's

12:15

considered pop music, and then you have

12:17

your weird stuff that you kind of put in the corner.

12:20

Well, you know what, I didn't know and and

12:22

and it took years for me to figure this out.

12:25

Was when we were first exposed to interesting,

12:27

different music. I don't know what you want to I've never been comfortable

12:30

with the titles we use. They sound like radio

12:33

program director type classifications

12:36

for music. But but but I didn't

12:38

realize until later that most of the country

12:40

never got exposed to that stuff. My wife

12:43

is from Oregon, and they didn't know this

12:45

music existed even even ten

12:47

years ago, fifteen years ago. Um, you

12:49

had to have back in the day, some

12:52

weird out of the way radio station that

12:54

would play this stuff, you know,

12:56

to expose you. And in New York they had

12:58

it, and in l A they had it, and in some other big

13:00

cities they had and I didn't realize the rest of the country

13:02

didn't have it until years after

13:04

the fact. But we had a station in Los Angeles.

13:07

Um and they're famous now. At the time

13:09

they were this little nothing station called k r

13:11

o Q. And yeah, and they are, they're

13:13

a whole genre now, But back then they

13:16

played music that most people didn't even want

13:18

to listen to. And if you listen to that station

13:21

and you met someone else who listened to that station,

13:24

that was a bonding thing right there. I

13:26

mean that puts you in some weird, unusual

13:28

group of people. I mean, people would sneer at

13:30

you if you said you listen to that kind of station, because

13:33

why don't you listening to Foreigner? Man? Yeah?

13:35

Sure, where's your where's your

13:37

latest fog hat single? Right? I got

13:39

three copies of the Foreigner

13:42

double Vision album at that birthday party.

13:44

Three, So that tells you how things

13:46

were. It was for me like a musical waste land,

13:48

right right right? Yeah, Well, you know, I mean

13:51

people definitely view k

13:53

rock like you said as an institution. But it's like, you know Rodney

13:55

on the rock, and he was doing such

13:57

cutting edge stuff in the early eighties

13:59

of the supposing people to like, hey, this is the

14:01

stuff that you'll hear from either Britain or that's happening

14:04

right here in l A that you won't hear anywhere else. Rodney

14:07

is someone you can't explain to people

14:09

outside of l A either. We used

14:11

to go out at night and we would run into him and his

14:13

little entourage of of almost

14:15

surely underage girls and all these other

14:17

things. We used to run into because to

14:20

us he was an old guy. Um when

14:22

we would see him, he was always he had this like sixties

14:25

look with this shag hair cut, and

14:27

he was twenty years older than

14:29

we were. But for those who don't know, he was this

14:32

strange guy who who got a

14:34

time slot at this strange station and

14:36

used to play all this music that no one had ever

14:39

heard. And I mean, there are great bands that people

14:41

know today who would be driving around l

14:43

A called this guy and say, we don't

14:45

have an album, but we made this tape at my house where

14:47

you play it? He'd say, sure, come on down and bring it

14:49

to me. I mean, this is kind of classic in

14:51

DJ history or DJ is like this,

14:54

But I mean it just shows you how different radio

14:56

was back then that some guy could say, yeah, I don't even

14:58

know what you're talking about, but but bring me the album

15:01

and I'll play it, or bring me the tape and I'll play it. And

15:03

there were a lot of bands that that people first

15:05

heard because that guy put them on the radio. Like

15:07

you said, it's completely you know, uncharted waters

15:09

at that time. Were you in high school when sort

15:12

of you know, punk new waves started to infiltrate

15:14

you and and you know, kind of become more

15:16

interesting to you. The first time I

15:18

ever heard it, um it, I mean,

15:20

you know, again, we'd have to classify what it

15:23

is, wouldn't because I think the Velvet Underground

15:25

spot. I think if you listen then this is a very American

15:27

thing to say. They don't agree with this in places like

15:29

Britain. But you listen to the Rolling Stones

15:32

in nineteen nine and nineteen seventy one

15:34

live and that sounds punk to me. Um

15:36

But the first time I ever heard something where,

15:38

I mean, it just knocked my socks off and I said,

15:40

wow, I can't believe that I was in Scotland

15:43

in nineteen seventy seven, and

15:45

they played Liar by the sex Pistols,

15:48

and if you remember the song, it swear.

15:50

They swear straight up in that song. And

15:53

we were listening to the radio, and I was with my family,

15:55

and all of a sudden, you know, John Lydon

15:57

starts saying the F word over and over and over

15:59

again, and and I we all looked at each other.

16:01

We're totally unprepared for that. And

16:04

and and to me, it's so funny

16:06

to listen to the to the sex Pistols

16:08

now and hear how nondescript

16:11

it sounds, and and try to remember how

16:13

it burned your ears when

16:16

you heard it in the in the late seventies. I mean,

16:18

there were people who said, oh my god, that is so hard, I can't

16:20

listen to it. And you listen to it now and I mean,

16:22

it's not quite music, but it doesn't

16:25

sound anything like it did at the time. So

16:27

the first time I ever heard it was seventy seven, and

16:29

I was too young for to make any impression

16:31

on me except oh my god, can you believe they're

16:34

swearing on the radio right right? Yeah? They Through

16:36

time, stuff like that becomes you know,

16:38

obviously less edgy and sort of whitewashed,

16:41

and you know, yeah, and by seventy nine, I was

16:43

we were starting, you know, the way you traditionally

16:46

got into this stuff, which you got into the lighter

16:48

stuff first if you were young. Right, So about

16:51

seventy nine, I'm about thirteen,

16:54

and you start, there's Blondie, there's

16:56

all these a lot of the New York bands, especially

16:59

power Hop. They used to call

17:01

him new wave. You know, they had all

17:03

these little subgenres. All you knew

17:05

though, if you lived at that time period was you walk in a

17:08

record store and over in

17:10

the corner, in this tiny little

17:12

section would be all this weird stuff

17:14

together and it would always be in some little

17:16

dark corner, and there never was a lot of it, and

17:18

it was always the strangest mix

17:21

up of stuff, I mean stuff today you go,

17:23

that was with that, I mean, you'd have like the B fifty

17:26

twos with Elvis

17:28

Costella, with Tom Petty,

17:30

with the Pretenders, and you would go, none of this stuff

17:32

goes devo, you go, none of this stuff

17:34

goes together. And and and yet

17:36

that was the catch all punk. New wave was

17:39

the catch all term for everything

17:41

that didn't fit into standard radio programming,

17:44

and and to this day I

17:46

listened to things I wouldn't have listened to because

17:48

it was in the same pile with other stuff

17:50

that I liked, and and a lot of it would not be called

17:52

punk today. But to me, again,

17:55

that's a very limiting term. You said hardcore

17:57

when we first started talking. Even hardcorees

18:00

sub genre of the big picture, right,

18:02

Yeah. No, you know, I always tend to use

18:04

the words like, you know whatever, independent music,

18:06

just because that you know that at least frames

18:08

it in the context of like, Okay, you're not exactly

18:11

going to hear this on the radio. But at the same time,

18:13

you know, no matter what moniker you put on it,

18:15

it does, you know, put it in a corner, no matter

18:17

what you do. We used to have to go get a lot of this stuff

18:20

on import too. I mean I remember

18:22

going and paying absurd prices for

18:24

singles from Europe because it was the only

18:26

place you could get this stuff. And even sometimes

18:29

American bands you'd have to

18:31

get from the import label. Um,

18:33

but I remember buying a lot of this stuff. You know, you go to

18:35

Tower Records on Sunset Belore, which is it was

18:37

an enormous record store like a warehouse

18:40

and they would have this tiny little

18:42

section over in the corner where they threw all

18:44

this stuff and you go through it and

18:46

you would even heard of a lot of the bands. You go,

18:48

oh my god, what is this? And you know, you sometimes

18:51

it wasn't too expensive, you'd pick it up just to hear

18:53

it, you know. Um. I used

18:55

to walk around, you know how much money I would give

18:57

from my old T shirt collection. I was thinking

19:00

us the other day, and some of that stuff was so classic,

19:03

and and about seventy

19:05

nine is when I got into that stuff. And then about

19:07

eighty one, when you get a little older and a little

19:09

bit more edge, you're into even you

19:11

know, harder stuff. So I'd say about

19:13

eighty one is when is when it all came together

19:15

for me. And I was, I was, really, I mean the Dead

19:17

Kennedy's are a perfect example. That's like me,

19:21

um, and I still have that album somewhere

19:23

in storage, and it is so scratched

19:26

that when I finally went online and

19:28

downloaded some of those songs um from

19:30

iTunes, I didn't recognize them

19:32

without certain parts being skipped over. I

19:34

hadn't heard the lyrics for years or some

19:36

of those parts, so I almost thought

19:39

the scratches were part of the song, right right, Like

19:41

that was intentional. That's so funny. Yeah, I've

19:44

forgotten what it sounded like without it. Yeah, no, for

19:46

sure. Yeah. I just have this like, especially

19:48

like I was referring to on the Tim Ferris podcast, like

19:50

when you mended, when you mentioned Dead Kennedy's, I get

19:53

this funny vision of you totally,

19:55

you know, nose deep in a book,

19:57

listening to you know, holiday in Cambodia,

20:00

and I'm just like, that's like, that's like the perfect picture.

20:02

It's so hilarious. But nobody, you know, that's something

20:04

no one knows to These stereotypes drive

20:06

me crazy because the people that I

20:08

used to hang out with, most of whom were more hardcore

20:10

than I was. Um, these were all really

20:13

intelligent people. These were well read

20:15

people. I wouldn't have been hanging out

20:17

with them otherwise. I mean, I wanted to have deep

20:20

discussions with interesting and these and

20:22

these guys and and women and girls

20:24

they were. These were all interesting people,

20:26

whether they were into poetry or a

20:29

lot of them were into history. Um.

20:31

And I think that gets lost a lot of the time

20:33

in the in the in the imaging of things like punk

20:36

is that people forget how how artistic

20:39

the people in it were. Um.

20:41

And you know, I think somebody more intelligent

20:44

than I am would probably say, well, that's a stereotype

20:46

too, because I remember in l A when

20:49

we called it the Orange County scene

20:51

kind of took over and it was more

20:54

t s O l Uh.

20:56

We used to think about him as as aggressive

20:59

beach uh punkers

21:01

from Orange County and it seemed

21:03

a lot more mindless to us. And

21:05

that was where you were more likely to get into a to

21:08

a fight or something with those guys

21:10

who were looking for trouble, you know, the skinhead

21:13

army from Orange County or something like.

21:15

It's very different than the Hollywood scene

21:18

and the places where we were hanging out. Um,

21:20

you know when you talk about the dead Kennedy. So that's

21:22

a perfect example that is not stupid, mindless

21:25

stuff. You know, I interview when

21:27

I got into radio. I mean one of the one of the great

21:29

perks was you could call people up and say

21:32

I love to interview you on the radio show. And you find

21:34

yourself calling up you know, people you admired.

21:36

I had Jello on the show, um, and

21:39

which is great. Those of you don't know Jello by offer. He's

21:41

the lead singer of the Dead Kennedy's and he's very

21:43

anti corporate. And I woke him up

21:45

because I remember calling his label,

21:47

Alternative Tentacles and saying, yeah,

21:49

I had Jello on the show, and they said, what time is your show

21:51

on? I think it was I forgot what it was on at that hour,

21:53

but but as noon or one or something that that's gonna

21:55

be a real problem because Jello doesn't get up till three. And

21:58

then we got him on the phone some how, and he's

22:00

on the program and everything. You know, you can almost

22:02

hear the suspicion in his voice because I'm on a M

22:04

radio. You know, he doesn't know me from

22:06

Adam. And we go to a break and you

22:08

know, you can hear the commercials when you're on

22:11

hold on the phone. And we come back from the

22:13

break and Jello launches into

22:15

this visceral critique

22:17

of the advertisers that just play.

22:19

And I remember thinking to myself as the program director

22:22

walked in the room, giving me, you know, screaming

22:24

and giving me the cut signal. I remember

22:26

thinking to myself, what did you expect? You know, you

22:29

want a Jello be opera on the show. You've got Jello

22:31

Bee Opera on the show. And I basically

22:33

agreed with him, and I had a conversation with the program

22:35

director afterwards. And that's why I never get along with program

22:38

directors. That's why I do a podcast

22:40

now right right now, I mean,

22:42

and that's what like knowing that you had

22:44

a past within the context

22:46

of this music. That's why it's like, you know, I

22:49

took the one to one analogy

22:51

of you know whatever, a punk band

22:53

releasing a seven inch single and

22:56

a person doing a podcast like, I mean, it's

22:58

it's Apple's apples. It is

23:01

apples. That's a great it is apples to apples. Yes,

23:03

and and so yeah, we'll hit that

23:05

point a little bit later. But I wanted to so, were

23:07

you, like you said, in the early eighties, like you were

23:09

you know, were you going to shows? Like did you have a desire

23:12

to actually like get up there and play

23:14

in a band? No? No, but I was going to show.

23:16

We were definitely going to shows, And it just depended

23:18

on where you were gonna go, because, for example,

23:21

you know, when you're a kid, you gotta be careful

23:23

at some of these venues. And that was the thing is, you know,

23:25

we used to talk about first wave punk, second

23:27

wave punk, all this stuff used to mean something when we

23:29

were younger. Um, first wave was

23:31

seventy seven. Everybody always said we were seventy

23:34

nine eighties. So second wave punk is how

23:36

we call it, or second wave new wave or

23:38

second wave new music. I mean, you know, pick your pick

23:40

your label. And there were clubs like the star

23:42

Wood for example, Um, like

23:45

Laurel Canyon and uh

23:47

and and like Highland or something or

23:50

was it Santa Monica and Laurel And

23:52

you go down there and the star Wood was

23:54

rough, right, Um, you know, we used

23:56

to see girls. You went to the

23:58

star Wood like twice and watch these girls who

24:01

came in with hair that was considered too long by

24:03

the locals at the star Woods. And there were girls

24:05

who would run around with these like

24:07

the scissors. Your teacher used to have an elementary

24:09

school, those giant scissors. And

24:11

we just walk up behind these girls with long hair

24:13

and cut it. And and it

24:16

was right. And the parking lot was rough, and

24:18

I was and I was like fourteen years old that I

24:20

remember thinking this is just not safe for fourteen

24:22

year old It wasn't. And and and at the time, you know,

24:24

people forget this. It was not always

24:27

welcoming. Being a punk

24:29

was a little like being a surfer, which

24:31

was fine if you're on your beach,

24:34

but if you're on their beach, you

24:36

know, then it's locals only, and then it's

24:38

not so fun. And and you

24:41

know, the big thing that used to upset me about

24:43

the whole pump movement was you could see it was gonna

24:45

die out because everybody was

24:47

accusing everyone else and being a poser

24:50

or you know, you're not. You weren't into

24:52

it early enough for you're not. And

24:54

you think you're, okay, this is welcoming, right, we're

24:57

taking, we're taking and and and and and section

25:00

ourselves off ever smaller. And then

25:02

it was like, oh, you're a Hollywood punk going down

25:04

and viewing a show in Orange County. Get the hell out of here.

25:06

Okay, Well that's gonna be great for the Orange County

25:08

bands, right. Um, So it was

25:10

it was not always a welcoming

25:13

movement, and so like going down to some of these clubs

25:15

where you weren't known wasn't

25:17

always safe. Now, when I was seventeen

25:20

eighteen became a lot easier, But

25:22

when I was seventeen and eighteen that movement

25:24

was starting to die. But we would go to

25:26

clubs in the valley um, which was closer

25:28

to home and more are are part of town

25:31

and and and yeah, that was easier, and

25:33

you'd see some bands. I mean again, when you try

25:35

to tell people what some of these bands were like,

25:38

I mean, there are bands that were comic bands.

25:40

They were they were almost novelty bands.

25:42

There was one in southern cal called the Surf Punks.

25:45

And you know, if you listen to one of their albums,

25:47

and they didn't have a lot of them, but if you listen to one of them, now they

25:49

sound like a joke. But if you actually

25:51

saw them in concert, they were hilarious,

25:54

just hilarious. And they put

25:56

three or four of these bands together. And you go

25:58

to some places like the country club in the Valley

26:00

and you'd see three or four of these bands together

26:03

and it was a fantastic night, and you could

26:05

be underage. And this is how long ago

26:07

it was. They didn't have MTV yet, and

26:09

so between bands they would put down like

26:11

a movie screen you would have in a movie theater,

26:13

and they would play music videos

26:15

which no one had ever seen before. And then obviously

26:18

we're not a ton of them, and some of them were like, you

26:20

know, you go back and see David Bowie's stuff

26:22

from the middle seventies where he was doing these weird film

26:24

projects that weren't music videos then, but

26:27

that's what you threw up there, because that's what you had.

26:29

And I just remember some fantastic nights

26:31

when I was about fourteen years old at these

26:33

clubs, and you felt totally safe

26:35

in that environment. Going down to the star Wood,

26:37

though that could be a little rougher, right,

26:39

right, No, So,

26:42

and what appealed to you about the because obviously

26:45

the common notion is that, you know, when

26:47

you start to get attracted to quote unquote

26:49

outsider art, you know, your

26:52

parents especially would be like WHOA.

26:54

Like you know, once you started to go to these shows and started to

26:56

come home and bring records into the house, like were

26:58

your parents like, Dan, what

27:00

road are you going down? My friend? Like this is scary,

27:03

let's let's talk about this. My

27:05

parents were artists, and so in

27:07

one sense they were cool with

27:10

it. I mean they were kind of beat Nicks in their

27:12

own day. Um, so they were

27:14

kind of cool with that part. The rougher

27:16

part was, and again doesn't sound like anything

27:19

now, But but go dye your hair

27:22

or go bleach your hair. And

27:24

and I mean I had two stepbrothers. I still

27:26

have two stepbrothers, and oh my god, they would

27:28

have been listening to Foreigner see and they hassled

27:31

me mercilessly about my

27:33

fashion choices and my

27:35

my my hair choices. And

27:38

uh, I don't have much hair left now.

27:40

But I used it a lot when I had

27:42

it. And I

27:46

said I had every color you might

27:48

see, naturally, I didn't. There was nothing,

27:50

no green, not not on purpose

27:52

anyway. You know. I'd go into pool too many

27:54

times with that bleached hair of mine and sometimes it

27:56

would inadvertently be But but every

27:58

I mean I had. I had once. I remember I

28:00

had you know what Superman's hair looks like in the

28:03

comics, where it's black but there's that tiny

28:05

bit of blue almost at the light catches it,

28:07

right, I had that once. Um,

28:09

I used to bleach, and then you'd bleach

28:12

on top of bleach. I mean there was a time period

28:14

where like I was wearing everything I was wearing

28:16

was bleached. My hair was bleached, and

28:18

then you'd bleach it again after it was partly

28:21

grown out, and you'd have this I

28:23

don't even know how to describe the look I had going then

28:25

it would oxidize at the beach, because you know, a southern

28:27

California guy, and so I had like, I

28:29

don't even know what you describe it, nine ten

28:31

different shades of blond

28:33

and black mixed into my hair. Um So,

28:36

so yeah, I took some hassling over that. I

28:38

do remember my dad. My dad lived

28:41

on this windy hill in the hills

28:43

of southern Cow and you'd have to

28:45

over buy malhold and you'd have to to

28:48

follow this windy like old

28:50

Italian country uh

28:53

path down from his house to get to the bottom

28:55

of the hill. And we would have these parties

28:57

at my place. I live below him.

28:59

I had department, and these guys would

29:01

would saunter out of there at like seven

29:04

in the morning. We're all dressed the

29:06

way we were the night before. My dad was on

29:08

the balcony looking down and there's this motley

29:11

crew of people in leather jackets

29:13

of black jeans and and you know, I

29:15

mean just bedraggled and you know,

29:17

looking like they hadn't slept, marching

29:19

down the hill like some punk army.

29:21

And he looked at me, goes a nice bunch of friends,

29:23

you have their kids. So I mean that's that's you

29:26

know, that's that's kind of how it was. But but everybody

29:28

was pretty good humored about it, and and we

29:30

were always smart people, and

29:33

I mean, you know, my my dad knew what he was dealing

29:35

with. Yeah, I know, Well it sounds it sounds

29:37

like to the you know, like you were talking about

29:39

this sort of notion of you know, punk,

29:42

and the aesthetic of punk at that time in particular

29:45

was so apathetic, you know, anti

29:47

authoritarian um. But the

29:49

the the apathy was what bled

29:51

through everything, and so it

29:53

was painted with such a broad brush of people

29:56

being like you said, unintelligent, uninspired,

29:58

just like well you know, of him. It sucks,

30:00

but we can't do anything about it. So funk that.

30:03

But that wasn't always the case, and it sounds

30:05

like that part of the culture did not appeal to

30:07

you. It was more of the you know, the

30:09

the independent spirit and like how creative people

30:11

were within that that scene. It was it was not it

30:14

was not the problem with with

30:16

with like um a punk ethos

30:18

and then trying to build a movement is all

30:20

of us were anti group. So so

30:23

how do you do that, you know. I mean, we're

30:25

all, we were all and I still am, just

30:27

individualists. And and yet

30:29

what you're talking about is creating.

30:32

You know, people would tell you it was doomed from

30:34

the start because we were so individualistic

30:36

and we didn't you know, what's the old Groutuo Marx line.

30:38

He didn't want to be a member of any club that would have

30:41

him as a member. That's kind of how we

30:43

all felt. And and and the minute

30:45

you started trying to look

30:47

like you were a part of some group was the minute

30:49

you you sold out kind of, you know, and

30:52

you you bought into the to the

30:54

media's idea of what this is, or you

30:56

decide you're gonna I'm gonna buy this leather

30:58

jacket because it will make me look punk rock

31:00

or something. I mean, eventually

31:03

you realize that that punk never died,

31:05

because those people are still out there. They

31:07

may look like stockbrokers now, but as long

31:09

as they maintain that that

31:12

attitude that they had at the time. You

31:14

know, in other words, the punk was a manifestation

31:17

of the attitude um and and

31:19

and not the other way around. So those

31:22

punk rock as a mentality, Uh,

31:24

it's been around forever. Jerry

31:26

Lee Lewis was punk rock. I used

31:28

to have our friend said Mozart was punk rock. And so

31:31

I think it's just a brand of people

31:34

that are individualistic and and

31:36

I think that a lot of other adjectives I could

31:38

throw in there. And I think we

31:41

we see it manifested from time to time.

31:43

And and I was lucky enough to live

31:45

in one of those times when when

31:47

that was big. And the funny part is that you didn't want

31:49

it to become too big because it was your little

31:52

your own Yeah. But then it was gonna go away.

31:55

I mean, if it doesn't continue to build, it goes away.

31:57

But but we look back. We I mean,

31:59

I think keep like me look back

32:01

on that as a bit of a golden era, and it didn't

32:03

last very long. The thing that I always found interesting

32:05

too, is like there there was always those ear markers

32:08

of like okay, you know, like like you

32:10

signified, you know, in the early eighties obviously

32:13

you know, punk was the thing, and then hardcore started

32:15

to infiltrate, and then you know the marker of

32:17

like well it started that started to die out in eight six,

32:20

eight seven, um. And so you can always,

32:22

you know, whenever your entry point is

32:24

to that particular music that will kind

32:26

of be your golden era. I think that the

32:28

trappings that fall into that are

32:30

the people that um, you know, like

32:33

you said, kind of come at it from a really judgmental

32:35

standpoint and look at those you know, thirteen

32:37

fourteen year old kids and are just like, well,

32:39

threw those guys. They weren't born early enough, and

32:41

it's like, well, what am I supposed to do?

32:44

Keep doing anything about that now?

32:46

And you can, you know, we all go back and listen

32:48

to the older music. I mean, that's the

32:51

funny thing about punk rock. I

32:53

guess you could say, is that is that everybody

32:56

I ever knew who was into it. And you know, again, we

32:58

all started off as what you know, we would

33:00

have called them posers back then. We all started off

33:02

with much lighter music. And you

33:04

know, you don't wake up at twelve years old

33:07

and go from you know,

33:09

whatever they have pop group we were listening

33:11

to, and then all going to the Dead Kennedy's.

33:13

That's that. That's a transition. And

33:16

so to expect people to have,

33:18

oh, you have twelve years old, you weren't listening to

33:20

the sex pistols? What's wrong with you? It just it didn't work

33:22

that way. You go back and you listen

33:24

to the early stuff and and and the rock and

33:26

roll from the fifties. Every

33:28

punk rocker I ever knew loved that

33:31

rock and roll from the fifties. I mean, we all

33:33

loved Jerry Lee Lewis, and we all love those

33:35

those three minute songs, and a lot of the stuff

33:37

from the sixties too. I mean I didn't know any

33:39

punks that didn't like the Seeds right

33:42

or or or, like I said, even

33:44

the Stones. The British looked at the Stones

33:47

and all of those bands as the old

33:49

bands to be toppled, the clash so famous.

33:51

What did he say, No, No Elvis, Beatles or

33:53

Rolling Stones in VENTI seven. But

33:56

we we didn't feel that way. In the States, especially,

33:58

the Stones always seemed like the out law band

34:00

of their era. And so I think every

34:03

era has had that kind of stuff. Um.

34:06

And so for me, you could meet

34:08

people in the forties and sit down with them

34:10

and find a punk sensibility about

34:12

them. They wouldn't have called it that, but I think

34:14

those people have always been around. You see it, especially

34:16

in literature. I mean there's lots of people over

34:18

the eras who are punk writers from

34:21

the last hundred years right now, the

34:23

label is applicable, Like you said, that's

34:26

it can span time and distance, but it

34:28

just may not be called that in that particular

34:30

juncture. Um the

34:33

U And so do you think Nirvana? Would you call

34:35

Nirvana punk? Yeah? I mean honestly, yeah,

34:37

just because they I would feel more comfortable

34:39

calling them, you know, I mean again kind of going back

34:41

to that sort of going back to

34:43

that sort of independent music. I think that it's

34:45

like yes, because they you know, they played

34:48

shows in front of twenty people, They put out their

34:50

own records, like those are bands,

34:52

Like regardless of the sonics of whatever

34:55

those bands are doing. I kind of put

34:57

all those bands together, like you were saying that sort of

34:59

you know, you that that's been in the corner of Tower

35:01

records, all those bands. That's what

35:03

they were doing because they didn't have, you

35:05

know, anybody supporting them. It was

35:07

just like, well, I guess we'll put this together

35:09

ourselves because we have no clue who to talk

35:12

to. I don't go with

35:14

you on that because I saw I saw a lot of bands

35:16

do I mean people, You know, when when

35:18

the punk stuff started dying, we got the hair

35:20

band era and in in l

35:22

A, especially at l a big hair band account,

35:25

and and I knew a lot of guys who

35:27

were in these bands. And and the way these

35:29

clubs worked is that they would give you a certain amount

35:31

of tickets if you were you know, Ghazaries or

35:34

or the Whiskey, and these

35:36

bands had to go and then sell their

35:38

tickets. And so you'd be on like Sunset Boulevard

35:40

and the actual band members would be saying, come

35:42

to our show. I mean, it was very grassroots,

35:44

but it wasn't pumped for

35:47

me when I heard Nirvana. I mean, we we've been

35:49

going through years of of trying

35:51

to find I mean, listen, there are people

35:53

who will say to me, Dan, you're an idiot because

35:56

there was Husker Do and there were all

35:58

these bands under the radar that you're not talking

36:00

about in eight seven eighty and it's absolutely

36:02

true, um, but but it

36:04

was dominated by all these hair bands.

36:06

And then you get like a Guns

36:09

and Roses, and you'd have to say to yourself, is

36:11

that close enough to what I like to

36:13

make it for me? And then when I was you

36:16

know, probably early, I don't

36:18

know, I'm

36:21

you know, I'm I'm mid twenties, and

36:24

Nirvana comes around and we were

36:26

like, yes, I know this music

36:28

again right and and you

36:30

know, without any and they were calling it grunge, but

36:32

I was listening to it, going no, this

36:35

this reminds me of stuff that I like,

36:37

and this is a sensibility. And there was

36:39

something about the way Cobain screamed

36:43

um that I didn't like a lot of the

36:45

other Seattle music because to me, that wasn't

36:47

the same. But Nirvana I listened to

36:50

and I go, Okay, this is not just music

36:52

I like, but these are people who listened to

36:54

the same music that I lush. And you

36:57

could tell when you heard them. And you

36:59

know, I don't know if bands

37:01

like The Offspring named themselves

37:04

because they were supposed to be another you know, sort

37:06

of like the next the children of the

37:08

Punks or whatever. But when I heard The Offspring

37:10

the first time, I remember thinking, Okay,

37:13

this is punk rock music, even if the punks

37:15

would go no, this is corporate blah blah

37:17

blah. You know, you

37:19

could sort of tell, especially from Southern

37:21

California, that sounded like you

37:24

know, Southern California always mixed

37:26

punk rock with surfing kind of

37:28

sound. Um, they didn't get that in New

37:30

York that the New York music and in the British

37:32

punk, none of them that had that. So the

37:35

offspring to me sounded like some of that

37:37

Orange County punk that we used to listen

37:39

to, and and Nirvana just

37:41

sounded like I mean, they

37:43

put their own twist on it. But if they had

37:45

come around in seventies seven or seventy eight,

37:47

I don't think they would have looked at a place in some

37:50

circles. No, No, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

37:53

Um. And so then as you you know, as

37:55

you what, it's been well documented that obviously

37:57

you've you came up in terrestrial radio

38:00

and that was kind of you know, your career path from that perspective,

38:03

Um, was it one of those things that, as

38:05

you know, because you had this foundation of sort

38:07

of you know, d I Y ethics like you know,

38:09

I I know, like the like

38:11

you're saying, this sort of individual nature that

38:14

you know, punk breeds. Um, did

38:16

you feel you know, out of place? Like you said,

38:18

in most of these I'm constantly battling

38:20

with program directors. This is not uh,

38:23

this is not the place for me. Ultimately, Well,

38:25

it was worse than that because I started off in television

38:28

news before I got into radio and

38:31

television news. Was was interesting

38:34

when I was doing it behind the scenes, and

38:36

then I became a reporter in front

38:38

of the camera, and it was the most frustrating experience

38:41

in the world. Um, for exactly

38:43

a lot of the reasons you mentioned. I just I

38:45

couldn't I couldn't fit into this

38:47

box that that. I'll tell

38:49

you a story. This is and I don't think I've ever told this one before,

38:52

but it's the moment I absolutely knew I

38:54

didn't belong in television news. Um.

38:56

I had just gotten a promotion on the news staff

38:58

and I was going to be a bigger member now all of the way they

39:00

marketed the news and so they shot

39:03

this promo where you have to

39:05

face you have to start with

39:07

your side to the cameraman, and then you have

39:09

to turn and smile and maybe put your hand

39:11

in your pocket. And that's gonna be part of you know, the commercials

39:14

and stuff, right your trusted news team or whatever

39:16

it was gonna be. And most of these guys

39:18

and and and anchor Retz as we used to

39:20

call them, could pull this off in three or four

39:22

takes and they're out of there. I was about

39:25

seventy takes into it. But what the cameraman

39:27

said is this gonna work? And I said, There's

39:29

no way in hell this is gonna work. And and

39:31

and you know, I just I knew right then that this

39:33

whole thing was too cosmetic and too fake

39:36

and and and I didn't feel it, and I couldn't

39:38

live it. And I couldn't and I would leave the station

39:40

at night and just look up in the sky and pull my hair

39:42

out and go, what the hell am I doing? You know?

39:44

And so when the offer to do radio came

39:47

along, and basically they said, we're gonna give you three

39:49

hours a day, five days a week, your

39:51

show. You talk about what you want to talk about, I

39:53

thought, Okay, this is the creative freedom

39:55

I need, right, this is what I mean. I can't blossom

39:57

without that. And then it's, you know,

40:00

three sixty five days of arguing with program

40:02

directors every day, and I was I

40:04

must have been okay at my job, because

40:06

I should have been fired fifty

40:08

times for being unreasonable and

40:11

hard to get along with, an inflexible and

40:14

um, I mean I was never like a prima donna,

40:16

but I just wouldn't do things. I mean, I had a big

40:18

fight over like, you know, you're gonna talk about the

40:20

O. J. Simpson trial. No I'm

40:22

not. And it's just day in and day out. And

40:24

then one day it was like, you're gonna go in there right

40:26

now and you're gonna talk about that trial or you're

40:28

gonna be fired. And I walked into the studio

40:31

and I turned on the mic and I said, the

40:33

media is making too big of a deal out of the O. J.

40:35

Simpson trial, don't you think so? People? And that

40:38

was the topic, and oh my god, it

40:40

was a knockdown drag out right after

40:42

that. So um so

40:44

for me, podcasting

40:46

is so punk, you know, and so

40:49

do it yourself that that it's

40:52

the first time I've ever really flourished

40:54

and felt like I could I could

40:56

make if your pardon it sounds grandiose

40:59

to say so, any kind of art, anything,

41:01

anything. And it's the only thing I've ever done in my

41:03

life in terms of a career where you look back

41:05

at the work and you say, okay, I'm

41:07

relatively proud of that. Um,

41:10

I'm a stickler, so I'm not really proud of anything.

41:12

But I really hated some of my past work,

41:14

and I can look at podcasting and say, well, if it

41:16

sucks, If my work sucks,

41:19

at least it sucks because of me. And that's

41:21

what I wanted to do, and I did it my

41:23

way. So if it sucks, at least

41:25

it's my work, it's on it's

41:27

on your back. This this, this is my track.

41:29

This this pile you've built.

41:32

That horrible song I recorded was my

41:34

horrible song. Right. So, as

41:37

you were, you know, matriculating

41:39

through the punk scene, was there anything that you contributed

41:42

from, Like were you interested in sort of the behind

41:44

the scenes stuff, like did you ever try to like book shows

41:46

or do a zine or anything like that? From a creative

41:48

standpoint, The music for me was a

41:50

mused for me to do other things. It wasn't.

41:53

I never wanted to be in a band. I

41:55

never wanted to be the music industry and

41:58

the music industry at all. Um, that didn't

42:00

appeal to be for me. Punk

42:03

wasn't just a music thing. As I said I was

42:05

reading. Uh, I mean, you

42:07

know, you pick up someone like Hunter s. Thompson,

42:10

is that punk rock? You know? But

42:12

boy I got into him heavily. Um.

42:14

We would go when I was in college at the University of Colorado,

42:17

we would go see bands and this was after

42:19

after punk was over. But but you would

42:21

they would be post punk, I guess

42:24

you could say, and we would enjoy the little bits

42:26

that came out of that, and so so I

42:29

getting into the music scene was never what I wanted

42:31

to do. I wish the music scene had

42:33

stayed more the way I wanted. I mean, if you

42:35

if you look at my music collection right

42:37

now, which my children are forbidden from doing

42:40

and my wife warns other people not to do,

42:43

but it all looks like old fashioned,

42:46

um you know stuff, And

42:49

when I hear it, it still makes me feel

42:51

creative and and I mean I've never really

42:53

grown, I've never All I ever wanted

42:55

was that music. I didn't want to make it. I didn't want

42:57

to move on from it. Um and it's still inspired

43:00

me to go in there and try and do something different. I mean,

43:02

even the Dead Kennedy's. My only complained

43:04

about the Dead Kennedy's is the same complaint I had about

43:06

the Sex Pistoles. Why couldn't we get one more good album

43:09

from Yeah, You're like, why

43:11

could I have like one more piece of material from

43:13

them in order to mean and quality

43:16

work? I mean, don't get me wrong, but but the Dead, Kennedy's

43:18

later work was not equal to their early work, and

43:20

the Pistols, Oh my god, could we have just had one

43:22

good album besides the one we got? Basically,

43:24

so, yeah, Mike. The complaint

43:27

for me is that I would love to be able

43:29

to go back and open up some time travel

43:31

treasure chest and find all this recorded material

43:34

that we didn't know existed, and be able

43:36

to have a whole bunch of new songs from all

43:38

those same people. I listened to the same songs I've heard

43:40

hundreds of times, right right right now. Well,

43:42

it's it's cool because I like to hear your

43:44

path on the fact that you described it perfectly in

43:46

the sense of the music. Was was amused

43:49

because usually kids get bit by

43:51

the bug of like, oh, dude, I gotta play

43:53

in the band, and then they have that focus

43:56

that Slevie drives them, and then you know, sometimes

43:58

that leads them down a path of making horrible

44:00

decision after horrible decision. Um. You

44:02

know, not to say that you probably feel like you've made

44:04

some horrible decisions on a career choice, like

44:07

you were mentioning earlier, but the

44:09

you know, the music industry kind of steeps into people

44:11

when realistically that's such a small portion

44:13

of people that can actually fit through that keyhole. You

44:16

know, you know, that's how I think that's how anything

44:18

though that is a tract. I mean,

44:21

you know, news radio,

44:24

any of those things. I mean, those are all professions

44:27

where there are too many applicants

44:29

for positions, and I think that's acting

44:31

as that way. I think most

44:34

artistic things where you can actually

44:36

make a living have more, you

44:39

know, more supplicants than than

44:41

uh than than than positions.

44:44

And and so that

44:46

doesn't bother me because I think people need

44:48

to do that. I think you need to reach outespecially when you're

44:50

young, and take a chance. I mean, we don't

44:52

know what you're capable of, right, I mean, I think that's

44:54

part of the punk ethos two. It's go for

44:57

it totally. Let's see and and if

44:59

you can become a heroin attict and go down that

45:01

road, well, I mean it's it's a known danger,

45:03

isn't it. Um so so, but

45:06

but no, I would never counsel people to

45:08

to be careful in that regard. I think

45:10

you've got to go and try to maximize,

45:13

you know, what's to say, it's it's not the it's not the cards

45:16

you're dealt, but how you play them. I think everybody

45:18

needs to needs to be aggressive in the way they play

45:21

the cards they've been dealt. Sure, yeah, yeah, you definitely.

45:23

I mean there's a time and a place to be, you know, brash

45:26

and irresponsible and like, you know, the perfect time

45:28

to play in the band is when you're you know, fifteen

45:30

years old, when you can live with your parents and you don't

45:32

have to worry about overhead and you can well and if

45:35

you're working hard, is that really irresponsible?

45:37

I mean, to me, if you're

45:39

ambitious, and I think I'm one of

45:41

those people that thinks ambition might be a gene.

45:44

They might figure that out someday, but wrapped

45:46

up in your DNA. But I mean, if you're working

45:48

hard, you ought to be working hard at something

45:50

you'd like to do. It doesn't mean you're gonna get it,

45:53

But why would you work hard at something you don't

45:55

want to do? Right, You might if

45:57

you're gonna work your rear end off, might as well

45:59

be in pursuit of something you really want.

46:01

And the truth is, when you look at all these people that

46:04

have those positions that you've got gotta really love to

46:06

have what that person has. Most of them

46:08

have worked really hard to get there, are really hard

46:10

to stay there. So I don't, you know, I don't consider

46:12

it irresponsible decide I want to go in the music business.

46:14

I'm gonna work my ass off to be successful.

46:17

The odds are still against you. But if people

46:19

didn't try, there wouldn't be anybody in the music business,

46:21

you know, So some more power to them, right,

46:23

You live your dream if you can while you can't. Yeah,

46:25

no, totally. Um. The last thing

46:27

I want to hit on before I let you go was the you

46:30

know, like we were alluding to earlier, the apples

46:32

to apples correlation of of podcasting

46:34

and you know, putting out your own stuff. Um.

46:37

So do you know the

46:38

the DNA that is obviously in your show

46:41

is completely you know, built from

46:43

the ground up. Um. And so I presume

46:46

you're kind of reminded daily of the

46:48

the ethics that you have learned

46:51

from obviously all the records that that you consumed,

46:53

um, when you were when you were that age. I'm

46:56

still listening to it every day. I mean, you know you

46:58

want to get into some time is to get up

47:00

for you know, I'm a noted caffeine

47:03

addict. Everybody knows that about me, and so

47:05

so before getting the programs, before

47:07

I go in the studio, UM, drinking

47:09

another triple espresso. UM,

47:12

Listen, I'm listening to something that moves

47:14

really fast, UM

47:16

music wise. And sometimes by the time

47:18

you put the espresso down and you

47:20

you turn the music off, you're

47:22

in the right frame of mind to be creative.

47:26

Uh. And so I I still use that as a kind

47:28

of amuse, and I absolutely

47:30

use it as a reminder that this

47:32

is independent stuff that we do. And you're

47:35

right, we are like an independent record label,

47:37

as are you, by the way. Um.

47:39

And and and when I talk about

47:41

podcasting two people they say that I'm an

47:43

evangelist about it, but as somebody

47:46

who's had to work under that corporate umbrella.

47:48

And I'm not saying, you know it will never happen

47:51

again, But once you've tasted this kind of

47:53

freedom, UM, if you're an independent

47:55

person as you are, and I am, with independent

47:57

ideas and and and an outlook like that, this

48:01

is a dream come true. People always think podcasters

48:03

want to do this and then get some other gig, and I keep

48:05

trying to explain to them, this is the

48:07

other game. This is this is what This

48:10

is what people like us work for

48:12

years to do. In the radio industry. Was always famous

48:14

that the famous Paul Harvey was

48:16

a huge radio guy and he had gotten

48:18

to such a point in his career where they put a studio in

48:20

his home and he could do his morning routine

48:23

in his pajamas with his cup of coffee, and every radio

48:25

guy ever knew said, oh my god, I'd love to get

48:27

to the point where I could do that someday. Well, welcome

48:29

to podcast right here here we are.

48:32

And so I always tell people, keep

48:34

keep giving me a bucket shows so I can keep

48:36

doing this the rest of my life. This is uh,

48:38

this is an independent person's dream come

48:41

true, right right, Yeah, It's just it takes

48:43

off all the boxes that you need for the quote unquote

48:45

dream job. Yes, it does if

48:47

you can make a living out of it, that right for sure.

48:50

Just out of my own curiosity, like what are you what do you

48:52

go to records? Like what are the ones that obviously still

48:54

resonate with you from that you know, that

48:56

that time period that you say, you know you put on

48:58

before you obviously start to dig into your you know, researcher

49:01

shows you're making

49:03

me open up my music thing. Right

49:05

here's and it's

49:07

completely fine I do anytime you're putting the spot.

49:09

I always know that those are difficult questions, but uh,

49:12

here's the thing. I go through these periods,

49:15

right. So for a while a

49:17

while ago, it was a it was a return to

49:19

like the Keith Morara stuff, whether

49:21

it's with black flag or I mean,

49:24

Keith Morris is the only black flag flag lead singer

49:26

I ever liked anyway. Um, and

49:28

and all of a sudden, you know, all this Circle Jerks

49:30

stuff is getting downloaded on and

49:33

then and then for like five weeks it's

49:36

insane listening to nothing else, and then

49:38

we move on to um,

49:40

the Dead Boys maybe or

49:42

uh uh there's always

49:44

Iggy to be uh to be listened

49:46

to, or the Stooges, the Stooges. I used to

49:49

have some great Stooges T shirts back in the day.

49:51

Now, and I keep thinking about the probably

49:53

hundred and thirty seven pound guide

49:55

that was wearing those Stooges T shirts. As

49:58

I look back on that, from about a hundred and seventy

50:00

seventy five pounds, I'm thinking my daughter

50:03

could wear those those We were

50:05

pretty skinny back in the punk days. As

50:07

I think about it now, Um, I

50:09

love me some m C five. That's a punk

50:11

band to me. Lou Reed

50:14

is punk to me. The New York

50:16

Dolls I still listen to. Um

50:20

uh, I swear to god, The

50:22

Stones are punk band if you catch them during

50:24

the right era. The sex Pistols

50:27

I'm looking at at my list right now, that's fine.

50:30

The weird the Weirdos, all these l A bands.

50:32

You know, you have the Screamers, the Weirdos,

50:35

all of those. And you know, we used

50:37

to say the l A. The punk house band

50:39

for l A was always X, and

50:41

all of us saw X many many times. And

50:43

I still think the first few albums from

50:45

X are wonderful. Um So

50:48

I put on any of those depending on the mood that

50:50

I'm in, even though you're obviously your your personality

50:52

definitely could match up with the high

50:54

octane music that is created within um.

50:58

You know, the the historical

51:00

context for people that are into history is

51:03

definitely like, you know, buttoned up, stuffy

51:05

like, and that's of course that's an over generalization.

51:08

So it's like, it's it's great to hear you being like,

51:10

yeah, just put a little circle jerks and then we'll we'll

51:12

dive into Gengiskhan. Okay, Well, the

51:14

truth is, like I said, I mean, I think we all started

51:17

off too as we were. I mean, there's a lot

51:19

of new wave stuff we used to listen to, and I'll still go

51:21

back. I mean, you go listen to Divo's first

51:23

album. There's nothing wrong with that, and I'll

51:25

tell you not at all. Or Boo

51:27

House. You go listen to some Boo House or some

51:29

Susie and the Banshees. There's some great Susie

51:32

in the Banshee stuff. But

51:34

again that that's my era. So I mean

51:36

I tell people that's a great Susie

51:38

and the Banshee song and they go, who So

51:41

I'm an old guy now. Yeah.

51:43

But I mean, like early Joy Division, that's all

51:45

they were. They're a punk band that they were. They

51:47

were they were doing a lot of Adam

51:49

in the ants. If you catch up really

51:51

enough, had some great stuff. Yeah, No, for

51:53

sure. It's funny that you,

51:55

uh, you know, you're

51:57

your daughters, are you completely

52:00

banish them from from your record collection?

52:02

And you were like, you know, they're totally and

52:04

they're totally banned from it. It's they can't go

52:06

near it, And is that is that primarily

52:08

to protect them from the sonics of

52:10

it? Or like, I don't know, if I want to go, then we go

52:12

down this road. You know what's funny

52:15

is that is that you can you can both be

52:17

so happy with your own past and romanticize

52:19

it. Let's not forget we're probably romanticizing

52:22

it too. And yet and yet not want

52:24

your your family to go down that path. Does

52:26

that make sense? It makes sense.

52:28

I wouldn't want my daughters to be the

52:30

way I was. Is that it's

52:32

the typical hypocritical parent, right,

52:35

do as I say, not as I did? Yeah?

52:37

Or you know so so? No? Well, and

52:39

I think this is why, right, And I think we all understand

52:42

this, and you alluded to it when you talked about music

52:44

a little while ago. We lived

52:46

an edgier kind of existence. And

52:49

and there are people that didn't

52:51

do well out of that something. You know, it's

52:53

it's a pass or fail kind of test, and

52:56

and we all knew I think a lot of people who

52:58

didn't pass. And why it's

53:00

a wonderful experience to have gone through those

53:03

things and talking about it with you now, you

53:05

don't want your kid to be one of those people that

53:07

don't pass those tests, you know, um

53:10

and and and then again hypocritical because you'd

53:12

love them to get all the good things out of it too.

53:14

I'm just I love them too much to risk

53:16

them. But I care about myself a hell of a lot less.

53:19

I was happy to go do it with myself,

53:21

but but don't put my kids in that situation.

53:23

Isn't that weird? That weird? You know, isn't

53:25

it weird for a guy whose parents were, you

53:28

know, halfway cool with him doing it, but I

53:30

won't. I'm not right right, You're like, well,

53:33

it is funny because you're like, yeah, my

53:35

parents are cool with that, but man, I sure as

53:37

hell I'm not doing that for them. My wife, my

53:39

wife much more straight than I am. She she would

53:41

definitely not be cool with it either. But thank thank goodness

53:44

for that. Right. We needed some stabilizing force

53:46

in this parenting thing, right, there's a

53:51

somebody's got a bad There's a lot of things I

53:53

bring to the table that need to be balanced to believe.

53:56

Well, that's per I think that's why we're all here for you,

53:58

Dan, Thank you, thank you, And

54:00

you know what, you know, the funny thing about it

54:02

is Ray is that when I was doing radio,

54:05

um, I was you know, you have to

54:07

be put in this box. And we had

54:09

this whole you know, talk radio most

54:12

people know as a right wing uh

54:14

type of thing, and all these talk radio hosts

54:16

are all these conservative people, and they

54:18

would put me in the middle of this, right So

54:20

I'd have these conservative talk radio hosts before me. I

54:23

started to talk radio hosts after me, and then this weird

54:25

dude in the middle of the day who was

54:27

not like any of them. And I used to have people

54:29

weirdos like me who would tune in

54:32

just for my little part of the day. And I would always

54:34

have these few cult followers who

54:37

said, thank god you're out there, because no one thinks

54:39

like we do. But then when you go onto the internet,

54:41

whatever, tiny percentage of people were

54:43

those people. That's still a huge

54:45

chunk of the pie when you've got three billion

54:48

people out on the Internet or whatever. So those

54:50

are my listeners. And I like to think that those people

54:52

are all punks. They're

54:54

all like one way or another. They're all like

54:56

us, either either in mind, spirit

54:59

or actual content that they

55:01

listen to on their headphones. Right right now. It's

55:03

great, Yeah, you're just like you. You're

55:05

picking up the you know what, what's considered

55:07

a disposable audience, either

55:10

through me or they'll self destruct themselves.

55:13

Maybe we're all we're all a little

55:15

bit close to the to the flame, moths

55:17

to the flame. Yeah, no, no, for sure. Well,

55:19

I I really really appreciate you hanging out and

55:21

obviously talking about stuff that you you don't

55:23

typically talk about in interview. So I appreciate

55:26

you, uh, elaborating as you did. Well,

55:28

nobody likes to hear this stuff, right, That's

55:30

what makes me think you must be a little weird, because when

55:32

I bring this stuff up at parties, people shut me

55:34

down fast. So I'm glad

55:36

you wanted to hear all these old Well I'm glad

55:38

because yeah, like I said, it's just it's always it's

55:41

to me, it's about peeling away the layers of

55:43

showing how successful you

55:45

can be in whatever field

55:48

you decide to choose, and like you're a prime

55:50

example of that, just being like oh, hey, like you

55:52

know, navigating these waters, still not

55:54

losing your voice within you

55:56

know, large structures and

55:58

being you know, like you like you're joking about

56:01

force to kind of fit a role, and it's like, yeah,

56:03

sometimes you gotta take a gig because it's not

56:05

what you want to do. But as long as you don't lose,

56:07

like you said, that's sort of passion and fire

56:10

for everything that you cared about,

56:12

then that that's what will guide you. You know. It gets

56:14

back to that line we said about posers

56:17

versus the real thing. You've

56:19

got to be true to yourself, and I

56:21

think that's when you're unhappy. Like I was unhappy

56:24

in in television reporting because it

56:26

was very difficult to be true to myself

56:28

when I did that. And that's what makes podcasting

56:31

so liberating, is is now if

56:34

if I'm not true to myself, there's only one person

56:36

to blame for that. And so you know,

56:38

I think all of the people out there that are individuals

56:41

and that brings some uniqueness to the table and then

56:43

foster that. See, I think that's something you you

56:45

can create yourself in an even

56:47

more unique way. If you consider

56:49

that a positive thing and you nurture it, you're

56:52

gonna be especially in this twenty one century

56:54

world, I think a more valuable

56:57

I hate to say product because that kind of goes against

56:59

the grain, but but I know a lot of people call me when they're

57:01

young and said, what should I do for a living? Carve

57:03

something out if you can, and that's easier

57:05

to do if you're unique, you know,

57:07

whether on the radio, carve out your own voice

57:10

in your own space, whether you're an engineer

57:13

or an artist or whatever else. And so when

57:15

you talk about the punk ethos, and we talked about

57:17

some of the downside earlier, but some of the upside

57:19

is that you were told it was okay

57:22

to be different. It was celebrated. And

57:24

I think that when people grew up and went out

57:26

into the real world, there's a lot of button down, uh

57:29

tie wearing, very conservative looking

57:31

people that you would all be shocked if you could see what they

57:33

look like thirty years ago, who are still

57:35

carving out that little independent place

57:38

for themselves as they were molding their

57:40

personality during an era where Jello b Offer

57:42

was helping to influence the way they thought. Yeah,

57:44

no, totally, it's and you don't you're not asking

57:47

permission to do your stuff now. I wonder

57:49

if Jello knows that, you know, I'd like to have say,

57:51

asked him if he understands how

57:53

many people I mean, I got interested. I think

57:55

I would have gotten interested into politics anyway.

57:58

But when I'm thirteen years old, JELLOPI

58:00

offers got me thinking about Central America

58:03

West in both and and the question is how many

58:05

thirteen year olds would have thought of that if the

58:07

music they were listening to wasn't bringing

58:09

it up to them in a way that appealed to

58:11

them. I mean, my whole I think my whole

58:14

life path changed because of that. And I wonder

58:16

if people like Jello are aware of that. Oh totally.

58:18

I mean it is so strange, Like I mean, I

58:20

I myself like I I mean, I personally

58:23

am like straight edge, which is you know I don't

58:25

consume alcohol do Yeah, I

58:27

figured edge.

58:30

It's so so yeah, it is one of those things where it's

58:32

just like the you know, being directly influenced

58:35

by the music. It's like

58:37

that that was so foundational, and yeah, you always wonder

58:39

where it's like how how does that sit

58:42

on one person being like, hey,

58:44

like so you kind of did a lot, You

58:47

did a lot of damage and or good to so

58:49

many people because of this, you know, And I

58:51

think a lot of people dream about that to

58:54

be influential, to have a positive

58:56

impact, right, I mean, uh,

58:59

it's like we talked about earlier. How great to

59:01

make a living doing something where you can

59:03

do something you love and and

59:05

encourage and foster that kind of

59:08

feeling in other people. I mean, maybe

59:10

I'm just biased towards this kind of job we

59:12

do, but God, that's and and to make a living

59:15

doing it, that to me is the perfect kind of

59:17

conditions that that's you can die happy if

59:19

you create a life like that, Yeah, for sure, because that's

59:21

that's the the legacy that's ultimately

59:23

left where it's like it's not it doesn't matter necessarily

59:25

what you do, but it's the foundation

59:28

that you've built upon, or that you've built that

59:30

hopefully other people can build on moving

59:32

forward. And I'm biased,

59:34

dude, but I don't think Foreigner was gonna

59:36

get me there. Just you know, between you and me, I don't think.

59:40

I don't think Ted Nugent was gonna get me there.

59:42

I don't think Peter Frampton was gonna get me there.

59:44

They didn't really have much a foundational

59:46

aspect to their music besides rocking out

59:49

listen. They said about Peter Frampton's album at

59:51

the time that it's sold more than If Frmpton Comes

59:53

Alive, more than any other album at the time, and I remember

59:55

thinking at the time that's reason enough

59:58

to not buy it. You know, if

1:00:00

that many people like it, it can't be

1:00:02

that good. Totally contrarian by nature.

1:00:04

Dan Carlin, Well, yeah, I

1:00:06

I'll let you go because I don't want to take up

1:00:08

more of your your valuable and precious time. But

1:00:10

thank you so much for going down memory lane and

1:00:13

showing how the the Hardcore History

1:00:15

and Common Sense is. Obviously it's it's a

1:00:17

it's a punk rock podcast. You know, you just don't talk about music.

1:00:19

Doesn't matter. I hope it was halfway tie. I appreciate

1:00:22

you having me on No No, for sure. So

1:00:24

that was Dan Carlin. Like I said,

1:00:26

check out his podcast. Please. You will

1:00:28

absolutely adore it. It will blow

1:00:30

your mind in so many different ways, and

1:00:33

honestly, you become more educated. Both of his podcasts,

1:00:36

both Hardcore History and Common Sense. They're

1:00:38

both irregular posting. He doesn't

1:00:40

post a new episode a week or anything, only when he

1:00:42

feels inspired. So but subscribe

1:00:44

to both of those and you will never miss that

1:00:46

awesome stuff coming your way. And thank you

1:00:48

again to both Brittany, his assistant,

1:00:51

and Dan for taking the time to do this, because

1:00:53

yeah, I just I didn't think this would happen,

1:00:56

and I am so glad that it did. So anyways,

1:00:58

One hundred Words podcast com

1:01:00

property of Zach dot Com. The guest

1:01:03

next week is Coaching. Andrew cog

1:01:05

is a acoustic artist

1:01:08

in the independent music scene and I

1:01:10

it was such an in depth conversation I can't wait to

1:01:12

share that one with you. And Tom Ridgefield

1:01:15

as always as the producer, creative genius

1:01:17

behind a lot of this awesome stuff. So until

1:01:20

next week, please be safe, everybody.

1:01:25

Yeah,