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Support for today's show comes from the Life Is Good

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So subscribe now on Stitcher, Spotify,

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or iTunes and add some good vibes to your

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day. Now here's the show. Hello

2:02

everybody, how are you doing today? I

2:04

am Ray Harkins hanging out with you on this

2:06

beautiful Wednesday in August. Today

2:08

is a very special day because this is the

2:10

seventh anniversary of this podcast.

2:13

We were three hundred and sixty four episodes

2:15

in It blows my mind that

2:18

I've been able to do it as long

2:20

as I have, and it's, uh,

2:22

it's thanks to you, the listener, because

2:24

you know, you you keep downloading

2:26

this thing and it keeps getting more and more popular,

2:29

and uh, I just I don't know. I feel very thankful.

2:31

But I also am thankful to our guest,

2:34

because our guests this week is John Dyer, basically

2:36

from the band Baroness. I love

2:38

Baronness so much. I have

2:41

watched their trajectory for quite

2:43

some time. Musically, they're incredible

2:45

artistic wise, like he's i mean,

2:47

an unbelievable visual artist. Has done all

2:50

of their record covers, and he's done so many amazing

2:52

record covers for so many bands. I've always

2:54

wanted him on the show, but frankly just didn't

2:57

really, you know, have any kind of connections into him

2:59

via uh um, you know friends like we have mutual

3:01

friends, but not to the extent where I would bug them

3:04

to have John come on the show. But my

3:06

publicist friend Monica was working their

3:09

new record and I was like, can we please make

3:11

this happen? She said yes, and I love

3:13

it, So that's what we did. But um,

3:16

let's let's slow down for a moment. This

3:18

show has changed my life in so many different

3:20

ways. And um, the

3:22

fact that I've been able to make friendships and

3:25

I've been able to um yeah, I mean

3:27

frankly make money off this thing too, and

3:29

also to be able to be a lifeline

3:32

to many people who frankly

3:34

don't feel either you know, as up

3:36

to date with like the newest bands or are

3:38

able to go to as many shows as they used

3:41

to. This Uh,

3:43

this podcast has served as a touch

3:45

point for them and I know many others

3:47

because yeah, I get emails, you know, you can

3:49

email the show one hundred words podcast at gmail

3:52

dot com. But I'm

3:54

just really thankful that I can

3:56

create real relationships with

3:58

people, you know as they assume this

4:00

podcast and consume these people's stories,

4:03

because it's incredibly important to me to

4:06

document this whole music scene and make sure

4:08

that people understand the importance

4:10

of it not only to me and the guest,

4:13

but to the you know, punk hardcore

4:15

independent music world. Uh,

4:17

you know, from a wider perspective. And I just, uh,

4:19

I feel so so thankful to

4:21

be able to do this week over week

4:24

and have you pay attention to it. So thank

4:26

you the listener. And you also notice we

4:28

have a new theme song done

4:31

by my friend. His name is Eugene

4:33

Kim, but he pens

4:35

songs underneath the name Doom and

4:37

Plume. And so yeah, him and

4:40

I corresponded with each other for I

4:42

don't know, a couple of weeks kind of honing

4:44

and uh, you know, telling him my vision of

4:46

what I would like the song to sound

4:48

like, because you know, I like to change it up after a while, because

4:50

we've had lowercase noises. For those of you

4:53

that have followed the show for a while, that

4:55

was the theme song for the past about

4:57

three years or so, and um, I

4:59

wanted to change it up. So that's what we got, Doom

5:01

and Plume. So you can listen to that for the next I don't

5:03

know year, two years, maybe even longer. So

5:06

also, please rate, review, and

5:08

subscribe to this show so that way

5:10

you were kept up to date with all of the recent

5:13

happenings and comings and goings of the show. Uh,

5:15

and frankly, just tell your friends, because that's the

5:18

most powerful thing that we can all

5:20

do to spread this stuff. Um,

5:22

before we get into the show. In my chat

5:24

with John Dyer, Basley, my son is

5:27

here. He's just watching me record this.

5:29

You can say Hi, Raymond. Yep,

5:31

he's in the background. But uh, this

5:34

is also a UM. You

5:36

know, it's special for me to be able to share this

5:38

this stuff with my son because he

5:41

likes music. He likes a very different style

5:43

of music than what we feature here, but

5:46

just his passion for it it makes me

5:48

really happy. And I think that's what all

5:50

of us need to foster with not only you

5:52

know, if we have kids or with our friends

5:55

and family, just make sure that they're passionate

5:57

about music in some capacity because this thing is

5:59

so life giving. So anyways,

6:02

let's talk to John. Okay. That is so

6:22

I'm gonna take it back to the probably about two

6:24

five. I saw you at the

6:27

fest at the Atlantic, if I'm not mistaken,

6:29

um, and witnessing

6:31

kind of the um. You know, I'm I'm a punk

6:33

and hardcore kids, so that's my roots. And anytime,

6:36

you know, I see a band that starts

6:38

to kind of bring all of those different disparate

6:40

audiences together, I'm like, this is

6:42

really cool. You know, it's always exciting.

6:45

UM, and that especially when you can obviously

6:47

introduce you know, the metal kids

6:49

into the element as well. UM. I really noticed

6:52

it at that at that particular show. Um,

6:55

I presume that that was kind

6:57

of um, not the plan per

6:59

se, but like did you find that sort of initial ground

7:01

sol of support coming from those particular

7:03

scenes more than anything else. Yes,

7:07

probably simply by virtue of the fact that

7:09

that was you know, that was the that

7:12

was the scene we were you know, we

7:14

were, we were in, we

7:16

were involved in you know, as as you

7:18

know, just as kids like we were. We were

7:20

friends and we came up in you know, the

7:23

punk cardcore community. Albeit

7:26

you know, when we were younger, it was it was in a very

7:28

rural, rural area. And then

7:30

when uh, you know, around um, two

7:33

thousands, between two thousand, two thousand and eleven,

7:36

I lived in Savannah, Georgia, and you

7:38

know that that was that town

7:40

had a very you know, I had a very unique, very

7:42

active punk and hardcore

7:44

community because geographically

7:47

we were located off of

7:50

all the major tour routings.

7:53

So when you know,

7:55

around around between two thousand

7:58

and two thousand and five, really like we

8:01

were, you know, we and a few other the you

8:03

know, very small number of other

8:05

bands that were around in Savanta,

8:07

Georgia, we were we if we wanted to see

8:09

shows, if we wanted to play shows in Savannah. We

8:12

basically had to book them. And

8:14

so our interest you know, our interest in

8:16

in you know, like crust punk, hardcore,

8:20

metal, and you know, all things,

8:22

all this sort of stuff that was below Marquee

8:25

level, Like we were bringing that sort of stuff into

8:27

town. And I'm talking about only one.

8:30

There were two there basically two venues. There was a

8:32

um even which

8:35

was a d i y space that our

8:37

roadie now now

8:40

artist, my artist friend, Jeremy Hush ran,

8:43

And then there was a club, more proper

8:45

club, but it was just sort of the local

8:47

punk place, punk club you know, where we hung out

8:49

called the Jinks. And that's where you

8:51

know, that's really where everything happens. Where we wrote, Uh,

8:54

that's where we wrote, you know, the

8:57

majority of our early material. It's

9:00

where we worked, it's where we saw shows, where

9:02

we hung out, and it's where you know, it's where I

9:05

came to understand how the community worked,

9:07

uh, you know, in a pragmatic sense, so

9:10

that when the band was ready to tour, we

9:13

were we were

9:15

at least you know, and for and we

9:17

we had a we had a you know, a national

9:20

network of friends. We

9:22

had an understanding on the fine point of

9:24

running, you know, operating a show without

9:28

you know about without professionals around. You know,

9:30

we knew how to set up pas, we know

9:32

how to you know, work her equipment, and

9:34

we know how to flyer. We know how a book shows, We know how to

9:36

print, merge, we know how to uh you know, get

9:38

ourselves where we needed to go. I mean

9:40

it was it really was like just more

9:43

because because you know, I realized that Barness

9:46

wasn't really a punk band. We weren't really we

9:48

weren't really a metal band. We weren't really anything

9:51

uh stylistically, but we

9:54

were friends with those We were friends

9:56

friendly and those scenes and that was you know, those

9:58

sort of our bread and butter so um.

10:01

You know. So when when when we started touring it,

10:03

you know, everything was d I y. It was

10:05

like subsistence living. You know, whatever

10:08

you whatever you're up to on

10:10

Monday, you need to you know, you need

10:12

to make just enough money to get to Tuesday. And on

10:14

Tuesday and you make just enough to get to Wednesday. Because

10:17

we were doing like, you know, two fifty shows

10:19

two I think maybe macked out in two thousand

10:21

four shows. And

10:24

by shows I mean basements, BFW

10:26

halls. Uh you know, like

10:29

dive bars that would have us. Uh,

10:32

you know, we so everywhere

10:34

from you know, like skate parks to shooting

10:37

galleries. I mean we just saw the world the best

10:39

and the worst of America, you

10:41

know, on repeat continually

10:44

for for years and years and years. And that

10:46

community was really important to me, you know. And

10:49

as we grew and as

10:51

we grew out of the

10:53

you know, those perceived genre or

10:56

style boundary lines, it

10:59

was you know, which which I never recognized

11:02

or identified with to begin with. Um,

11:05

we had developed and

11:07

operating you know, uh, like an

11:10

operating mechanism or a

11:12

way of you know, a modus operandi

11:14

that that that I

11:16

still recognized as being like

11:20

both present in the way we do things

11:22

now, but critical for the way,

11:24

you know, for for the growth and developments band.

11:27

And it's something that I recognize. And people

11:29

who have shared experience, if they have that shared experience,

11:31

it's just one of those things. When you meet somebody who's

11:34

come up that way, you know it immediately,

11:36

and when you meet more more obviously, when

11:38

you meet some of you who hasn't come up that way, it's it's

11:40

it's very apparent, uh, And that you

11:42

know that comes down to you know that

11:44

it's like mentality that that sometimes exists

11:47

when bands started and they think, I need

11:49

a book and age and I need a manager. I needed this then

11:51

the other thing to get my band. And you

11:53

know, kids ask me for advice and you know, what

11:55

what do I do to start a band? Or

11:57

I've got a band? What do we do to get out there

11:59

and make it? I'm usually just like, uh,

12:02

well, don't hire anybody until you need

12:04

them. But more importantly, right, you know,

12:06

just right good songs and

12:09

figure out figure out every aspect

12:11

and every angle of the shows

12:13

that you're putting on if you can, if you know how to do

12:15

that, you'll have respect for the people ultimately

12:18

that will do it for you. You

12:20

will you will understand the amount

12:22

of the sheer amount of work, volume

12:24

of work that goes into putting

12:26

on a show, making a record, booking

12:28

a tour. And you know you your

12:31

I think viverrtual that fact,

12:33

you are able to move

12:36

more smoothly in this

12:39

you know community of music that

12:42

you know, from from the d I Y level up to

12:44

the you know, the mainstream.

12:46

There are systems in place that make

12:49

it very difficult for we as musicians to

12:51

you know just to get by. But if you

12:54

if you understand the system from

12:56

the inside out on the fundamental level, then you're

12:58

better equipped to uh

13:01

know where, you know when and where you're being

13:04

taken advantage of, and how to you know, how to

13:06

get yourself out of speaking situations.

13:08

You know, it's it's kind of like, let

13:11

me boil it down to this. Every lesson

13:13

that I've ever learned, I've learned the hard way,

13:16

and because I learned it the hard way, the lessons

13:18

stuck right totally

13:21

totally, and to your point, you know, pulling

13:24

one thread there that you were talking about was

13:26

the I've always compared Athens

13:29

to you know, Memphis in many different

13:31

ways. Obviously bands like you know his hero has Gone, you

13:33

know, man with Gun all that whole scene that

13:35

did the same exact thing of what you were talking about, where

13:37

it's like no one played Memphis from

13:39

a you know, d I Y level. So do

13:41

you had to bring bands in in order to kind of

13:43

build, like you said, that connective tissue,

13:46

the idea of just like because I mean it's not like it's

13:48

not like they're you guys were sitting

13:50

back and being like, oh, we're really learning business

13:52

principles here you're just like, well, no, we gotta put out of

13:54

demos. No, no, no, exactly. In

13:57

fact, I think we were avoiding business

13:59

print stables because

14:01

we are so you know, this is this

14:04

is just the problem of you. I think you we were

14:06

avoiding or issuing the

14:08

the idea of business in music

14:11

because based

14:13

on our experience, and it seemed

14:16

that it seemed a thing that was demonized

14:18

in the thing that was a negative.

14:21

You know, like always a negative can't be a positive.

14:24

But you you know, let's let's be real

14:26

like that's a that's a young that's

14:29

a younger attitude on things. And it

14:31

doesn't always it doesn't. It's

14:33

just realistically, that's that's not what's happening.

14:36

Like you just bought dinner.

14:38

That was a financial transaction. You just had

14:41

to fill your tank with gas, another financial

14:43

transaction. You just stayed on somebody's

14:45

floor. Well you just traded, you

14:49

know, and yeah, in a way, and

14:51

so you know, at the end of the day, you it's

14:53

all this for

14:56

that, and it's happening constantly and

15:00

more importantly as you learn that, you know,

15:02

you learn how to do it where you're in such a way that you're

15:04

not stepping on somebody

15:06

else or you're not and you

15:08

know, uh,

15:11

making advantageous moves

15:13

for yourself that negatively

15:15

affect of those around you in

15:18

the best case scenario. You know, the d I Y

15:20

community taught me how as

15:22

a community we can all help each other out and we

15:24

can all grow simultaneously and in tandem.

15:27

And when that happened that, you know, that warms

15:29

my heart, that that brings a great you know, makes

15:31

it puts a smile on my face. And yes,

15:33

when when you know, when you've got to when you've got

15:35

a scene that's that's got nothing, well

15:38

you have nothing to lose, so you just build and

15:40

you build and build. And in the case of Savannah,

15:43

we we built something kind of strange

15:45

and something that people outside of our

15:48

locale we're recognizing as having

15:51

this particular sound or you know,

15:53

just like a particular attitude. We

15:55

never really identified with that, and those just being

15:58

talked about around us so frequently that you

16:00

couldn't ignore it. But there was you know,

16:02

it's not like we had there was like the Savanna you

16:05

know, sludge psychedelic sludge

16:07

top you know, do music

16:10

consortium. We didn't that. There wasn't we

16:12

didn't. We didn't have meetings and discuss,

16:14

you know, how things are gonna work. We just didn't

16:17

have any We

16:20

didn't have like

16:23

elders too to copy.

16:25

So we just invented the rule book and

16:28

the rule book. When it worked, that

16:31

became how things were going to be. And when

16:33

it didn't, then you know, let's learn, move

16:35

on to do it differently next time. Today's

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18:00

I love you so NOS. And kind of on that same line,

18:03

was the you know where

18:05

where was the kind of intro to that

18:07

whole you know, d a y independent scene.

18:09

You know, I'm presuming that you know, as you were kind of

18:11

coming up in high school, that's kind of when things

18:14

started to get introduced to you and injected

18:16

into your you know, ecosystem.

18:19

Was that the case or was that, you know, were you going

18:21

to recondstours? Was it? You know, the skate culture?

18:24

How did that introduce itself to you? Well,

18:27

the thing you have to understand is that where I

18:30

you know, where I grew up and we're you

18:32

know Baroness Mark one, two, three, four

18:34

and five. Uh, we

18:37

we were. We all grew up in uh

18:39

In and around a small, very

18:41

very small town in Virginia called

18:43

Lexington, which I

18:46

think you know, populations anywhere between

18:49

five thousand, depending on whether or not the

18:52

universities were in session. But you know,

18:54

we were, we were, we were, we were local kids. We lived in the

18:56

county and um there

18:58

are there was was a record

19:00

store, but it was like you

19:02

know, it's where you went to buy use Grateful Dead

19:05

CDs or Dave Matthews.

19:07

It wasn't really like a record store that dealed to

19:09

me. So we didn't have a record store. Uh.

19:11

Nirvana broke at the right

19:14

time for me. Uh and that was

19:16

my access point, Like MTV taught me more

19:18

than just about anything. So through Nirvana,

19:20

I found the Melvin I found Dinatair Junior, I found Sons,

19:23

I found K Records. That found

19:26

uh you know then

19:30

you know, then it just it

19:32

just it's spread out to uh,

19:34

you know, the roots of public and you know, then I'm listening to like,

19:36

you know, seventy seven stop Punk, eighty two stop

19:38

punk, you know, the English stuff.

19:40

Then you go like in the Eastern European stuff.

19:42

And then all of a sudden, you know, trading tapes, you're

19:45

buying uh you know, seven inches and everything

19:47

that everything's mail order. You know, we're

19:50

just like, you know, we're just a bunch of kids in

19:52

the country. We don't understand that.

19:54

We don't understand any of the scenes at all because we don't live

19:56

in them, so the cultural context is

19:58

completely lost on us. So we developed,

20:00

you know, even in Virginia, we developed this unique

20:03

thing. Then when I was in Savannah,

20:05

you know, there was already you know, sort of a thing

20:07

that was happening down there. We just kind of inserted ourselves

20:09

into it. And it's you know, it just kind

20:12

of grew in a really weird way. Like my

20:14

thought was always you know, like the

20:18

appeal of this whole thing is, you know, ostensibly

20:20

that you you get to be your own person.

20:23

And I always identified myself as an artist

20:25

or as a creative person, not as a musician.

20:28

It's certainly not as a punk or a metal guy or

20:31

or anything like that. You know. In fact, even

20:33

even to this day, you know, I still find

20:36

that there's very

20:38

many times where I'm not accepted

20:42

with fully open arms into

20:44

into these into these little

20:46

like clubs, and that that's fine.

20:48

That's what I'm used to. You know, I grew up, you know, I

20:50

grew up in a rural place where you

20:52

know, most of other body that I knew was you know, it

20:55

was like more on the countryside of things, and you have a

20:57

lot of rednecks and a lot of a lot of intolerant

21:00

attitude and a lot of uh,

21:02

you know, clicks and stuff like that in

21:04

that way, and so for me,

21:06

being an outsider it was always kind of the

21:08

important part of it was like, yeah, of course, so

21:11

to continually been an outsider

21:13

always felt like a natural thing to me, even insofar

21:15

as you know where we sit today, and

21:18

you know, I think people myself

21:20

included, have a very hard time exactly

21:22

defining what baroness is, like where do we fit in

21:25

the grand scheme of things? Like you at

21:27

this point, you never ever calls a punk band, uh

21:30

loosely, you know, loosely associated with metal,

21:32

but I don't think. I think calling us a metal bank

21:35

sort of does the service to metal bands.

21:38

But neither are we an indie rock

21:40

band or a pop band or a radio

21:42

rock band. So like none of these things, you know.

21:44

Um, so like being on the

21:46

outside, I think is has

21:49

always been a big part, has played a big role in

21:51

in my uh development

21:53

assan as an artist and as a musician.

21:56

Uh, it's certainly where I've learned

21:58

to feel most camp rle um,

22:01

you know, for better, for better, for worse. But I

22:03

think, you know, I think it's also forced my hand to

22:06

you know, to develop something that uh,

22:08

you know, if I'm gonna make a community, it's gonna be a really small

22:10

one. It's going to be me and musicians.

22:12

I play with the crew that we have and you know,

22:14

the people that we work the art the artists that we work with, and

22:17

that's that's the you know, that's the crew, that's

22:19

the scene. So it's just it's just part

22:21

of the project, you know, rather than rather

22:24

than you know, like like identifying

22:27

as part of the hardcore scene,

22:29

where then you have to play by hardcore

22:32

scene rules, or you know, identifying

22:34

as pop country and then you know, you got you gotta

22:36

be a pop country guy. Like better

22:38

for me, it's better to just beg borrow and steal

22:41

what you want because at the end of the day, it's self

22:43

expression. So it's supposed to be unique,

22:45

it's supposed to be different, and sometimes it's

22:47

supposed to be something

22:50

that people don't quite understand.

22:53

And that's my most

22:56

valuable experiences in music have

22:58

been with bands that put push those

23:00

boundaries and offer alternative,

23:04

offer more interesting alternatives

23:06

to you know, the

23:09

current status quo. Um,

23:12

you know, and I saw that. I saw that in a lot of events

23:14

that were influential on me when I was younger, fans like

23:16

Frugot, you know, I

23:18

said a very different standard. You know. It

23:20

was yeah, you know, talking

23:22

about it's one thing, but doing it too different, you

23:25

know, it's different. So I'm I'm going to like at

23:27

this point, I fall more on the on the side of you

23:29

know, actions, do in fact

23:31

speak loud of the words and if you're gonna

23:34

you know, if you've got a point to prove,

23:37

get out there, improve it. You know, certain wats

23:39

don't waste time talking just like prove it. And

23:41

that seems to have a better impact on uh

23:44

you know, the audience that needs it anyway, because

23:46

then there's this other thing that happened. I'm sorry, I'm just kind

23:48

of running question. Uh.

23:53

You know, I felt as as there were certain points

23:55

when you know, certain developmental

23:57

stages, at the point, you know, with Baroness

23:59

where I felt that each

24:02

night we would go on a stage and

24:04

I can look out in the audience and I pretty

24:07

much knew him. You know, I pretty

24:09

much know everybody that's there. If I don't know them

24:11

specifically by name, I know

24:13

where they comes from, you know, to a certain

24:15

degree. No, I'm not claiming that I'm like

24:18

a crowd whisper or anything like that, just

24:20

to say that, like, you

24:23

know, if you're playing if

24:25

you're a black metal band and you're playing a show

24:27

and everybody's in corpse paint and got studs,

24:30

you know, poking out of their wrists, and you

24:32

know, all the whole nine yards, Like you're

24:35

not telling anybody anything about Satan that they

24:37

haven't already heard. So

24:40

if you're if you've got a message

24:42

that you're trying to put out there, if you've got something that

24:44

you think is interesting enough that it's worth hearing,

24:47

why wouldn't you try to reach the people who

24:49

want, you know, who haven't heard that yet and

24:51

trying to make an impact on them. And I'm not talking

24:53

about being a black metal band or in a satan

24:56

or anything like that, but uh, you know, for

24:58

me, it's like the d I

25:00

Y community was so important and the idea of

25:02

self sufficiency, self proficiency,

25:05

uh, you know, quality over quantity, bucking

25:08

the system, uh,

25:10

questioning the status quo, always asking yourself

25:12

why, and you know, most

25:15

importantly for them, like this where I don't think we have

25:17

a you know, an outward

25:19

political agenda or social agenda, but

25:22

more more creative and personal one, like

25:25

if if you know, music

25:27

is about the human experience, if it's about

25:29

self expression, if it's about communicating in

25:31

a nonverbal way from

25:34

our you know, from our speakers and our

25:36

stage to their our audiences ears,

25:38

and then to receive the input that they

25:40

you know, whether it's energy or or applause

25:43

or dancing or singing, singing,

25:46

and kind of like that's what's important to me.

25:48

And to reach people who haven't

25:51

quite gotten that phone call yet, that

25:53

seems the more interesting thing. So then it's like,

25:56

should we be so ambitious and so presumptuous

25:58

that we think we can make a different from the inside out.

26:01

And I think in more recent years it's it's it's

26:03

like, yeah, I think I think it's more fun

26:05

and more engaging for us when we're putting ourselves

26:08

in situations and we don't understand

26:10

that well and seeing, you know, because

26:12

more work for us. We have to prove our

26:15

value in a more substantive way.

26:18

Uh. And we've got you know, and we have to put ourselves

26:21

selves up against the world's greatest bullshit

26:23

detector, which is crowd. The crowd, you know, the

26:25

the idea of a crowd, the idea of crowd has never

26:27

heard you. They are going to immediately

26:30

give you every visible

26:32

emotional energy clue that you can possibly

26:34

receive about whether or not you're doing a good job or not.

26:37

And you know, that kind of stuff, as

26:39

I said, more recently, has been of

26:41

interest to me because I don't want

26:43

to end up, you know, a musician

26:45

playing to the same crowd time and time again, where they're

26:48

just you know, judging this performance

26:50

against the last. But I want to create

26:52

compelling, unique experiences

26:55

where you know, occasionally somebody who's never

26:58

thought they were going

27:00

to be interested in, you

27:03

know, the sort of music that we play or the sort

27:05

of shows that we're involved with,

27:07

is all of a sudden uh uh,

27:11

you know, is all of a sudden enraptured by

27:13

and you know, we've caught their attention. And

27:15

then and then we're

27:17

doing something, you know, then we're doing something new,

27:19

something we don't have control over. In fact,

27:21

it's more it's more about their

27:24

involvement, uh that, rather

27:26

than our like proficiency or precision.

27:29

You know. Yeah, yeah, Well to your point,

27:31

it's one of those things where it's more valuable,

27:33

uh, like you were saying, to be you

27:36

know, on the quote unquote inside existing

27:38

within the sort of you know, structure of the music business

27:41

as it were. But to to what

27:43

you were saying, you are now a

27:45

gateway band where people that have

27:47

no context for everything from

27:50

a foundational perspective that is important to

27:52

you, like the whole d I Y culture and not

27:54

even removing genres, just d I Y in

27:56

general, and like you can send people

27:58

down a rabbit hole in ways that

28:00

you know, like you can just by

28:03

the mention of who gods in this interview,

28:05

you could get a person who has no clue

28:08

who that band is and then all of a sudden open their eyes up

28:10

and open their world up in ways that you wouldn't

28:12

have been able to do if you just existed

28:14

within the confines of you know, these really

28:16

really small and secular scenes or whatever. Yeah,

28:20

precisely. And you know, because it's it is that it's

28:24

it's it's you mean, you know, it's it's the

28:26

idea of confines. It's the idea of secularism

28:30

and and uh, you

28:32

know, invisible boundaries that I

28:34

would like to think that we can provide

28:37

an alternative to. Uh, you know, I have

28:39

found that there are there is a

28:41

there's really you know, some interest out

28:44

there in in in certain types of

28:46

bands and being exclusive. I

28:48

don't I don't quite understand it other

28:50

than maybe you know it it

28:53

allows a scene

28:56

to feel important and like

28:59

like against the world sort of thing. But but

29:02

you're like, why would you create that

29:04

system yourself? Why would you why would

29:06

you create an exclusive system just

29:09

for you know, just on the basis of you

29:12

know, a fight or something like that. Like

29:15

it's it's it's completely nonsense

29:17

to me. Uh, And it's and it's

29:19

it's low hanging fruit, you know, it's it's it's easy

29:22

to do that. More difficult is

29:24

becoming an inclusive band in

29:27

a way that doesn't sacrifice your creative

29:29

integrity or your uh

29:32

you know, artistic morera's And that's

29:34

that's, that's, that's

29:37

what we've really always been on about. The

29:40

court values are intact. I

29:44

kind of don't care if we're successful or not,

29:46

you know, I just want to try. It's as I'm

29:48

a process guy, so the processes, you

29:51

know, almost always trumps

29:53

the you know, the the effect

29:56

or the output or the you know, our everythings

29:58

shake out, Like why not have

30:01

high why not have a high set of standards? Why

30:03

not be ambitious? Why not set impossible

30:06

goals? At least when you

30:08

fail, you can go it was never

30:10

realistic to begin with. And you

30:12

know that when you succeed, you can go, oh that's

30:14

an honest success. I I

30:17

didn't expect, you know, that was work.

30:19

We I didn't expect that we did that through

30:22

sheer willpower or something. Yeah. No,

30:24

no, it's it's a very good point. I mean, I think that's why

30:27

you can, uh, you know, the

30:29

the fan base that exists for bands

30:31

like you know, you guys Neurosis and the

30:34

you know, there's of course, like flirtations

30:36

with a not even just flirtations, but just success

30:38

on a larger stage in different increments of

30:40

the of you know, bands like you guys and their's

30:43

career and many others. But when

30:46

you are still fundamentally the

30:49

you know, same principled band

30:51

and not even like principled, like you know, you're getting on a

30:53

soapbox and being like everybody needs to be this way because

30:55

that's clearly what you're not trying to do. But you

30:58

have you have fans

31:00

that can follow you at every iteration of

31:03

your sound and still understand that at

31:05

the core it's like, well, yeah, it's it's still barreness,

31:07

Like, yeah, it doesn't sound anything like they're previous

31:10

records, but like I understand where they're coming

31:12

from. Yeah,

31:14

and you know, and and any any

31:16

time I've ever caught any caught any sort

31:18

of flak for you know that that's sort of like

31:21

seismic shift that we that

31:23

we really work for, you know, in between each

31:25

record. Uh, you know, when there's when

31:27

there's kicked back from that first off,

31:29

I accept it. You know, that's part of that's

31:32

the risk reward uh

31:35

calculation that you make. You

31:38

know, probably gonna have to break few. I used

31:40

to make this on so to speak, um,

31:42

and that's you know, that's gonna be it may

31:44

you know, you do everything at the risk of maybe

31:49

affecting the offending, the sensibility

31:51

of those people who have supported us, but

31:55

also for any

31:57

of our fans who are like, you know, not

31:59

feeling the dire action. It's like, well, you

32:02

did see that coming, right, right. We

32:04

telegraphed this a little bit. Yeah,

32:07

there's a this is the common that is

32:09

the common thread. It's not you know, our

32:11

batting average is never going to be a thousand. We're

32:14

trying, you know, we try, but

32:16

but our you

32:18

know, creatively, our our goal in

32:20

writing is to create music that

32:22

we want to hear, that you know, like and I said this before,

32:26

I'm just writing music that I wish somebody else had written

32:28

before me, because it ain't needs to play. It's

32:30

very difficult to come about. Uh.

32:32

And you know, oftentimes because

32:35

because of the concept and

32:37

the you know, the the

32:39

content of

32:41

of our music. It's men, it's really dark.

32:43

It's it's not it's

32:46

not like I'm writing these films because I

32:48

love to focus on, you

32:50

know, my deficiencies and the

32:52

things that I struggle with and my xiety

32:54

and my depressions and my hates and pains. I don't love

32:57

that I do it because I

32:59

don't have a better way of dealing with them. And you

33:01

know, creativity has offered me

33:04

this fantastically pure,

33:07

uh an elegant way to turn

33:12

minuses into pluses. Like

33:15

I I that's what that's what's always that's

33:18

what's always appealed to me about music. However,

33:20

I should note that that's that's my attitude.

33:23

I played in a band with people, and

33:26

I can't force that idea on them

33:28

because that's that's not the way that they feel. So

33:31

well, I think, I think what's becoming interesting about

33:33

this bend is that we balance

33:36

some very seemingly

33:39

contradictory things with one another.

33:41

Like you know, for instance, Sebastian

33:44

or drummer, his attitude is it's

33:46

so psyched and so up

33:49

that it's it's just a it's a good uh

33:52

you know, it's a good counterpoint to his up

33:54

as a good counterpoint to my down. And

33:57

that's what makes you know, that's what makes our

33:59

music celebratory

34:01

in the face of adversity, and that's

34:03

what allows me two more uh

34:06

efficiently take you

34:09

know, take the take these dark

34:11

things and shed some light on them

34:13

in a way that uh that is

34:15

both cathartic for me as the artist,

34:18

but also I found

34:21

becomes any easy. It's

34:25

it's almost like a conversation starter for

34:28

a for for a conversation that's

34:30

never spoken. So you

34:32

know, our audience picks up them that that sort of stuff,

34:34

and they responded that me. You know, I think if we've

34:36

if we've written a good song, people find

34:39

themselves in the

34:41

story or in the you know, in

34:43

the poetry. They see, they see or feel

34:45

or respond to something emotional.

34:48

Uh. That's that I'm putting out there. Um.

34:52

And I try not to be overly specific about it because

34:54

because I don't want to. I don't want to take their

34:57

experience. Uh that you

34:59

know that that can be helpfully And you

35:01

know, I've found musically incredibly

35:04

rehabilitative to me, not just my anally,

35:07

but you know, more specifically other

35:09

artists who's you know who

35:11

whose work reminds me of

35:13

my experience and allows

35:16

me to think about it in a more meaningful

35:18

and and deep seated way. And

35:21

it's you know, I feel it's it's humbling

35:24

to have heard some

35:26

feedback from from our fans. That

35:29

leads me to think that they're having a similar experience

35:31

with our music. And it's it's really it's it's reassuring

35:33

in a way. I don't, you know, not placing

35:36

all my money on that, you know, that that would be would

35:39

be kind of presumptuous. But again, at the end of

35:41

the day, I'm just writing you, like I

35:43

think this bands do is write music that that

35:46

pushes forward, that has

35:48

elements of uh

35:51

or or aspects that that are their

35:53

brand new idiosyncratic you

35:55

know, it's got to be us. And the more food

35:58

we becomes musicians, the more the

36:00

more obligatory, the greater

36:03

the obligation for us to uh

36:05

you know, to dig in deeper and tell a more genuine

36:08

story in greater earnest

36:10

with more passion and

36:12

vigor. And you know, that's

36:15

that's really fun. It's really fun to do. It's

36:18

really tough to do. But it's also kind

36:20

of tricky sometimes because I'm

36:22

putting a lot of myself out there and I

36:24

don't want to be

36:26

drained at the end of the day and at the

36:29

end of the album, I don't want to think that I've given so

36:31

much like an energy away or so much emotional

36:34

energy away that that that I'm that I'm spent,

36:36

you know, um, which

36:39

is why I appreciate that the aspects

36:41

of our music that that you know, push it up

36:43

because you know, I mean, I'm not even

36:45

I'm serious. Like every

36:48

night I play these songs, I'm

36:50

just it's just I'm just like crying

36:53

through them. Yeah, I'm I'm

36:55

I'm putting everything I have into them because I mean

36:58

them, they they're They're vastly

37:01

important songs to me. It doesn't

37:03

that doesn't mean they need to be important to anybody else. You

37:05

know. That can be fun to some people. That can be

37:08

it can be just like good good like

37:10

rock and roll time or like awesome experiments

37:13

and sound. But to me, you know, there's there's substance

37:15

behind these things, and working that out

37:18

every night is it's not easy, but it does.

37:20

It does help me, you know, it does. It

37:22

does offer that that's therapy

37:24

that I need. So it's creative, it's therapeutic,

37:26

it's communicative. It allows me, as

37:28

somebody with social anxieties, to you

37:30

know, to deal with lots of people at the

37:32

same time and to you know, create

37:35

communal experiences. I get to traveling

37:37

to you know, all sorts of stuff, and it rules to

37:39

be in a band, but it's not easy. Yeah,

37:42

yeah, it's it definitely is the concept

37:45

of work because obviously a lot of people

37:47

exist in the sort of you know, Peter Pan lifestyle

37:49

of you know, touring, and like, you know, touring is

37:52

a suspended state of animation. Like anybody

37:54

that's done it for a prolonged period of time knows that

37:56

they're not participating in real life. They're participating

37:58

in this you know, sort of alternate route

38:01

that you know, you can tap into it occasionally.

38:03

Um, and that's where you kind of get to

38:05

your point, that's where you get get the kind of creative energy

38:07

in order to be able to write about other experiences

38:10

rather than like because you know, clearly Baroness has

38:12

never written a record about tour per

38:14

se. You know, it's not like that, oh the rough

38:17

being on the road, you know. And so I

38:19

think to your point, it's it is one of those

38:21

things where you don't want to be this self

38:23

serving band that is

38:26

speaking about really singular experiences that

38:28

you know people can sort of understand.

38:31

But yeah, you're you're trying to root this a

38:33

much more emotional place. Yeah,

38:36

I mean like reconcile,

38:38

reconciling with the fact that we

38:40

don't you know, our agenda

38:42

is what is an emotional one, you know,

38:45

and our you know, our

38:47

output comes off as I passioned

38:49

and and and emotional.

38:51

You know, this is not something this is

38:53

what I've learned, um

38:55

from the other members of my band. Yeah,

38:59

you know, because I know maybe I was just you know, I

39:01

was too blind to see that that sort of stuff. Um,

39:04

so I'm just sort of reacting with what they told me. But

39:06

I I see the value in it

39:08

now and I've had to. I said, I had

39:10

to reconcile with it. I had to become comfortable with it. I

39:12

had to, you know,

39:15

like I got to a point where

39:18

it was important for me to understand

39:20

what we were and I couldn't tell you.

39:22

I couldn't have told you what we were. And

39:25

when you know, after this you

39:27

know, horrifying thing in two thousand and twelve where the bus

39:29

went off the cliff and I got all broken up and all badly

39:31

like that, Um, you know, we we

39:34

were forced to get a new rhythm section. So Sebastian

39:36

Thompson and Nick Joe started the band and

39:39

as they were joining you

39:41

know, and these guys weren't the interesting thing

39:43

about them that they weren't prior fans

39:46

seven knew who we were, I think Nick

39:48

Nick and maybe heard of us, but they were. This

39:50

was it was like the community of musician

39:52

friends that that allowed me access

39:55

to these guys, and they joined

39:57

and there were such important additions and important,

39:59

such a portant people in my life now. But

40:02

it was through them, through essentially

40:05

non fans who are

40:07

joining a group and then inserting

40:10

themselves and then and then adopting

40:13

the group as it as their

40:15

family. It took it took their

40:18

evaluation of what was, you know, what made

40:21

our band special to really

40:23

allow, you know, to really give me that insight in

40:25

a in a realistic way where you know, I

40:28

didn't I didn't need. It wasn't like I didn't need

40:30

a paddle back. I wasn't asking what was great,

40:32

you know. I wasn't like, tell me what's great about

40:34

Barns. I didn't know.

40:37

I just didn't know. I didn't know. I've

40:39

always considered myself sort of just,

40:42

you know, kind of lucky or like

40:44

maybe tenacious and eagle parts lucky

40:46

and tenacious, but also extremely

40:49

unlucky in some ways. I think it's a thing.

40:51

I've got maybe the best worst luck

40:55

that I know of. And

40:57

and so you know, I was so like, well, when

41:00

we were rephoning the band, I was was really like

41:02

a confused, frustrated, uh

41:04

sort of isolated moment place, and I didn't

41:07

know really how to proceed.

41:09

And you know, they were very

41:12

blunt and honest, and you know, and what they heard

41:14

in our band that was appealing to them. You

41:16

know, they after they had toured with us and

41:18

after we started writing, and that was eye opening

41:21

for me. And I understood that, you

41:24

know, the emotional content was important,

41:28

and that I was maybe misplacing

41:31

my value on things

41:33

like kee meet or volume

41:35

or like you know, be the dance round,

41:38

and that there was just that there was like actually

41:40

a different type of intensity that was was

41:43

actually what people were, you know, responding

41:46

to that. I just I didn't know

41:48

because you know, as

41:50

self aware as we try to be, sometimes we skipped

41:52

the big thing. Right. Yeah, You're

41:54

like, well this works for me, so of course you can work for everybody.

41:58

Yeah, in the world where everyone

42:00

is confined to their homes, Society

42:03

begins its largest bin watch to date

42:06

in the Hallowed Library of Hulu, or perhaps

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in a decade. Is a show that

42:13

perfectly encapsulates life in the

42:15

early aughts and launched a friendship

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that would inspire millions. Hi.

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gonna bring friends and crew members

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and fellow cast members and writers

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and and guess what, We're going to even invite

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some of you to call into the podcast

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and ask all the questions you want of the

43:01

entire Sacred Heart staff. Join

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us for Fake Doctor's Real Friends on

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the I Heart Radio app, Apple

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it out. The the idea, I mean primarily

44:28

on the fact that you know, you have built your yourself

44:31

up, you know, as an artist as well, and you know

44:33

clearly you know, do a lot of projects for a lot of different

44:35

people. Um, and you know the band is

44:37

is clearly one of them. The collision

44:39

of art and commerce where you start to have

44:42

to reconcile with the fact that, um,

44:44

okay, like you know, I need to know like what to

44:46

charge for my pieces of art, and I need to

44:48

know what, um, you know, my band is

44:50

worth a night, And like all these things that you

44:52

know are just kind of they're

44:54

they're not only are they important, but they're byproducts

44:57

of the idea of just being creative. Um

45:00

you know, was that was that? And

45:02

has that been kind of a difficult world for

45:04

you to sort of like navigate and understand

45:06

because usually people that kind of sit in

45:08

the solely creative world, you

45:10

know, don't have any desire from

45:13

a business perspective to like, you know, I mean,

45:15

you learn basic stuff, but you're like, well, yeah, if

45:17

I could ignore that then that would be better. Um, how

45:19

is that evolved for you over time? Or have you always

45:21

just been like, well, yeah,

45:25

you know, I would like to I

45:27

don't know the pull up pull

45:29

a couple of people that I know, and the maybe they give

45:32

I don't know. I honestly, honestly, I don't

45:34

know. I'd like to think that I've always been pretty

45:36

realistic and and uh and to

45:39

a certain degree self aware, because man, I

45:41

know him. I know I'm a little crazy. I know

45:44

that I know that

45:46

I work a lot. I

45:49

know that I'm neurotic. I know that

45:51

I get compulsive, and I'm obsessive about

45:53

things. I know these things about myself. I know I'm

45:55

difficult to work with in some ways

45:57

because of that. And I

46:01

also know I'm I'm also you know,

46:04

I'm also the sort of person

46:06

I don't I just don't believe in like false

46:08

humility, like I

46:11

am. I humble myself in

46:13

a genuine way about genuine things. But

46:16

but I'm like, oh no, this record

46:18

is no good. So I think our recent record is actually quite

46:20

good. Um. But

46:25

to the point, back to

46:27

your point about like self evacuation

46:30

from from that more but

46:32

from that potentially

46:35

uncomfortable standpoint,

46:37

I want. I I'm psyched

46:40

when somebody tells me realistically what we

46:42

are and how nobody's hurt. You know, I was. I

46:45

was excited and thankful for

46:48

everybody that ever shot me straight

46:50

in a in a way that could have been hurtful

46:52

to somebody with a more sensitive, uh

46:55

sense of themselves. And in fact,

46:58

you know, when you know, when we let

47:00

let me back up a second, but I would say that only

47:03

you know, we we did everything ourselves until we could

47:05

no longer do things ourselves. I wasn't

47:08

that presumptuous. But and

47:10

I only ever hired the

47:12

next, you know, the next stage

47:14

in our you know, our expanding

47:17

UH team, when

47:19

we were like really when we just

47:22

crossed the line and we really needed it ten

47:24

minutes ago, Like that was always my method

47:27

is like okay, at the time when we make the

47:29

first genuine mistake that you know that

47:31

would have been helped if we had had you

47:33

know, a booking, a gene tour manager or

47:36

whatever, that's the time when you get that person

47:39

um because you don't want to make that mistake again again.

47:42

Like may maybe I'm obsessed with making mistakes

47:44

on the right. But

47:47

everybody. I had this thing where I would

47:49

hire people. I would only hire the

47:51

people who told me the

47:55

side of the side of what we were that

47:57

I didn't want to hear, and

47:59

and that was that's the money. That's the vast minority

48:01

of people who you know, who are trying to get you to hire them.

48:04

It doesn't make sense, you know, really, if

48:06

you're trying to get if you're trying to get a band as a client,

48:08

you don't it

48:11

doesn't really sound like a sensible idea to call

48:13

them up and tell them that nobody's heard of them or

48:15

that they're not worth anything. But when

48:18

somebody told me that, you know as well, and

48:20

and seem to know what the hell they were talking about,

48:23

and you know, I connected with and seemed

48:25

like like a sort of good person that I could

48:27

get along with. So those are the people

48:29

that I hired. I hired our booking agent because he said nobody,

48:32

nobody's knows who you are because

48:34

you're not playing the right shows. Uh.

48:36

And I was like, oh, well, fair enough, And

48:38

he's like, and you're not worth anything, so

48:41

I'm not, you know, So so you're gonna we're

48:43

gonna have to work we're gonna have to work for it. And I was like, perfect,

48:47

that's so much easier on

48:49

my ears than you know, the like

48:51

long white limousine thing, you know,

48:53

Wayne's world, a big smoking a cigar,

48:56

right, I don't want that, and so so that became

48:58

my hiring policy for long. It was just like

49:01

people who were able to

49:03

give me the tough truth speak truth

49:05

to power. Not that I was powered, but you know that's

49:07

the term we use all the time now. Um

49:10

yeah, I mean that was those those who are That

49:12

was how I hired. That's how I've hired people, people

49:15

who give me that information on so

49:18

comfortable with it because I don't

49:20

I work best when I've got to fire under my

49:22

ass. I work best in high stress

49:24

environments. I work best when I got something to prove.

49:27

And we've always had something to prove and

49:30

we've never been the biggest,

49:32

or the best or the most highly paid

49:34

ben So yeah, so it

49:36

was so cool. We don't have to maintain

49:39

that. All we have to do is grow. Yep,

49:41

totally, yeah, that's that. That's the thing. Um,

49:44

I know, because we have a heart out

49:46

based on this, I'll just ask you this one last

49:49

question. Um, you know kind of touching on

49:51

what you're saying when you know, I mean clearly

49:53

it's been a well documented you know, your accident,

49:56

your feelings on it, and you know everything

49:58

that kind of shifted for you as a per and um,

50:01

you know I imagine that

50:03

you know and you actually mentioned this earlier, which

50:05

I was glad I wasn't reading too far into

50:08

this scenario that you know, when you're healing,

50:10

Um, you know, regardless of what you've gone through

50:12

from a traumatic experience, UH, A lot

50:15

of it can feel very isolating because whether it's like

50:17

your body is broken or your spirit is broken, those

50:19

are both isolating things. And you were trying to

50:21

get yourself back to it. Um,

50:23

you know how I guess how did you sort of

50:25

retain the connectivity? Um, not

50:27

only to you know the fact that people

50:30

were, you know, rooting for you and wanting Baroness

50:32

to still exist, but then also just like

50:34

you know that the people that you had from you know,

50:36

your day to day life. UM, how did you

50:38

kind of I guess retain those bonds or was

50:41

it mostly from the outside where

50:43

people were really pushing themselves to be a

50:45

part of your life? How did that all transpire? I

50:49

mean I just think it took work. It took

50:51

work. I realized, you know, I realized, you

50:53

realize when you're you know, in your situations

50:55

like that, that, uh, there's

50:57

a potential for pity to take over or

51:00

for that situation to define

51:02

you. And in some ways,

51:04

you know, using that as a definition point would

51:06

have been simple because it would have been easy

51:09

to get pressed and easy to market and

51:11

easy to capitalize on. And I really didn't want that

51:13

to define me. So I recognized

51:16

that I while I could neither ignore

51:19

it, neither could

51:21

I bank on

51:23

it. And so I had to I had to

51:25

take that. I had to take that. You know, maybe

51:28

it's not half full, and maybe it's not half empty, maybe

51:30

it's just half. And that's that's

51:32

where I was like right in the middle, and

51:34

I don't you know, I wasn't willing to let I

51:37

wasn't willing to let something like that get

51:39

the better of me one way or the other. And

51:41

so we just put work in. And you just put

51:43

work in, you'd be you know, like it just

51:46

just to you know, and

51:48

I'll pick and level of honesty

51:50

and uh and humility

51:52

and you know, being able to admit to people, you

51:54

know, you needed, you need them, need their help,

51:56

and they meant a lot too, and you

51:59

know, actually that's all kind of good

52:01

stuff. So you know, once I once I

52:03

had gotten the once I've gotten to that, you know, once

52:05

I realized how important that was, how valuable

52:07

that was, uh, you know, and then

52:10

the those relationships became

52:12

clear again, and I wasn't you know,

52:14

I wasn't concerned or I wasn't

52:17

worried or in doubt about you know, people's

52:19

intentions because it's you know, there

52:22

are you know, there were ways that I went about it,

52:25

like talking to people and uh,

52:27

you know, moving through the next couple

52:30

of years of my life that uh

52:33

forced people to prove to me

52:35

that they weren't doing things at

52:37

all, you know, out of pity or um,

52:41

you know, out of you know, just out of concerned. Is like,

52:43

okay, well we'll just keep John active because you

52:45

know, he's he's already half the creating and

52:47

you know, I don't I don't want to push him over the edge by ignoring

52:49

him, so I try to be you know, it's just

52:51

just you know, it's really like you know, they

52:54

talks about it and just gonna be honest, it's just about being

52:56

open and honest and uh,

52:58

you know, making sure that you don't you surround yourself

53:00

the good people who care who don't you

53:03

know, who are cuture about you and who

53:05

care about uh you know, like

53:07

when it came to the band, like you guys to care

53:09

about music, they didn't care about

53:11

the sensational part of that story. Then you

53:14

know, the new guys in the band were they just want

53:16

to play music. And

53:18

they didn't see me as like you

53:21

know, like some like

53:24

weaken person. They saw me and somebody who

53:26

was trying to you know, trying

53:28

so hard to push through it that yeah, like

53:31

who cares about you know, even wheelchair

53:33

and you know it barely works at that

53:35

At that point, it's like guys are going for it. I

53:38

would like to see. I'd like to think that it was that way. And

53:40

then you know the relationship were

53:42

pure, and you know, we don't talk

53:44

as a band. We never talked about it. That's the

53:46

last thing we talked about. You know, it's something

53:48

that the press talks about it, and you know I have to, I

53:51

have to bring it up, but I'm not uncomfortable doing

53:53

that because I don't Again, I don't focus

53:55

on it. I'd like to think

53:57

that we have done we have operated

53:59

in such a way that the you

54:01

know, the potential that that acting had to

54:03

define our career has

54:06

has only done so in the way that it needed

54:08

to and no more. And it will

54:11

not be it will not be the only thing

54:13

that people remember because we actually have some decent

54:15

music to you know, push us through that.

54:18

Yeah, I know for sure. And to your point, it's the process

54:20

behind it. You know it. You

54:23

you revel in it from the I mean, you

54:25

don't want to put yourself through certain processes,

54:27

but you know, when you can actually just focus on this sort of step

54:29

by step scenario, then like you

54:31

said, you come out, you

54:34

know, not only a stronger person, but you know, a

54:36

stronger piece of art, like all of these things exist.

54:38

Rather than you know, rather than

54:41

just being like, oh, I'm overwhelmed by it, it's like, well, no,

54:43

it's a process. So that's just yeah, it's

54:44

it's cool. I leve but I like hearing you.

54:48

Part of that processes is is

54:51

like you

54:53

know, putting you know, putting

54:55

a light on that thing that you know that has

54:57

the power over you, that that for you know, that

54:59

the potential to cause fear or anxiety

55:02

or undue stress or you

55:04

know, like unwarranted

55:07

depression stuff like that, and saying, Okay, this is

55:09

a thing that has power over me. I'm

55:12

going to talk about it so that I so

55:14

that I'm giving away that,

55:17

you know, that quiet unseen

55:21

power. I'm gonna talk about it enough, but

55:23

I'm not going to focus on it totally

55:25

talk about it as much as as much as I talk

55:27

about other important things that happened. Because it was

55:30

important, it just wasn't the

55:32

only important thing that happened that year. Totally,

55:34

totally. Yeah, it's it's it's not the it's

55:37

not the punctuation mark. This is a comma. It's

55:39

like, that's that's all we're really doing here. Yeah,

55:41

yeah, totally, Yeah, it was. It was a comma.

55:43

It was. It was a comma that I wish, you

55:46

know, I wish the sense was short enough and didn't

55:48

need it or whatever. You know,

55:52

if you know, if I could go back and take it away, I would

55:54

take it away. Yes, yes I would. I

55:56

wouldn't. I would have done something differently

55:58

that day, but that wasn't the way it panned

56:00

out. Uh, you know, I got dealt

56:02

that hand. So I'm playing it totally

56:05

totally understand where you're coming from. So well,

56:07

I'll let you go, but I can talk to you for a while.

56:09

But I really appreciate all of your time and all

56:11

your insight and frankly all your music, because yeah,

56:14

I really really have been a fan for a long time.

56:16

So yeah, thanks for letting me pick your brand new I really appreciate

56:18

it. Yeah, thank you. All

56:24

right. How great was that

56:26

chat with John he Um?

56:29

It was really intense. He's an intense dude, but

56:32

I had forty five minutes with him, so I was like, I'm

56:34

gonna make this count and he was there

56:36

for it. I just you know, sometimes when people

56:38

are in the middle of like a huge press

56:40

run, sometimes it takes them,

56:43

you know, a good ten to fifteen minutes to kind of warm

56:45

up to the idea of what a podcast is. But he

56:47

was like ready from the kid go. There was like

56:49

there's I think there was like five words

56:52

exchanged before I started recording. I was just like,

56:54

hey, man, nice to meet you. I'm a really big fan of your

56:56

band, and he was like thanks. We just dove right into it. So

56:58

thank you very much, John, Thank you very much Monica

57:01

for hooking this interview up. And thank you to you the

57:03

listener as always, because yeah,

57:05

I mean, I'd be doing this thing if there were only four of

57:07

you listening, but there are way more than

57:09

four of you listening. So and thank you very much

57:11

to Doom and Plume for the song,

57:14

and we will continue to feature that for

57:16

many many months and weeks and years

57:18

to come. And next week

57:20

I have a great chat with Lance

57:23

Wells. He's the vocalist from a band called Faded

57:25

Gray from Vegas. I

57:27

had the chat with him. It was probably

57:29

about a month or so go. It was out in Vegas and hung

57:31

out with him at his house and it was a

57:34

really really fun discussion. So happy

57:37

seventh anniversary of the show. And hopefully

57:39

I'll be able to do this for another seven, ten,

57:41

twenty thirty years and then you know, maybe

57:43

I'll hand the microphone over to my son and he can start

57:45

talking about music. Oh

57:48

man, that's great. Well until next week,

57:50

please be safe, everybody. Special

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thank you drip Drop. You've

58:41

been listening to the jabber Jaw podcast network

58:44

jabber Jaw Media dot com.

58:54

Hi there, I'm Zach Braff and I'm Donald phase

58:57

On. We're real life best friends, but

58:59

we met playing fake life best friends

59:01

Turk and j D on the sitcom Scrubs.

59:04

Twenty years later, we've decided to rewatch

59:06

the series, one episode at a time and

59:08

put our memories into a podcast

59:10

you can listen to at home. We're gonna get all our

59:13

special guest friends like Sarah Chalk,

59:15

John c McGinley, Neil Flynn, Judy

59:17

Reyes, show creator Bill Lawrence,

59:20

editors, writers, and even prop

59:22

masters would tell us about what inspired

59:24

the series and how we became a family.

59:27

You can listen to the podcast Fake Doctors,

59:29

Real Friends with Zack and Donald on the

59:31

I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

59:33

and wherever you get your podcasts.