0:02

This is the jabber Job Podcast Network

0:12

three.

0:28

Glow everybody, and welcome to another episode

0:30

of One Words or Less the podcast.

0:33

I'm your host, Ray Harkins. Thank you

0:35

so much for all of the nice

0:37

feedback that I got last week on that very special

0:39

episode with my grandfather who

0:42

died last week or two weeks ago

0:44

essentially, and I was able to do

0:47

an interview with him back in two thousand eleven, and UM,

0:49

yeah, the amount of outpouring I received on that

0:52

um was awesome. I was a little

0:54

nervous about it, because of course, anytime you introduced

0:56

something new into an ecosystem

0:58

that is used to hearing people in bands

1:01

and record labels and all that sort of stuff,

1:03

how you know, you guys would react. But

1:05

overall it was very very positive. And

1:07

you know, I mean, the downloads were still there. It wasn't like

1:09

people were like, oh gosh, I'm not gonna

1:12

listen to this morbid thing. So

1:14

I really appreciate that. And for those of you that reached

1:16

out and emailed me and either sent condolences

1:19

and or shared

1:21

their own experiences on loss, I really really

1:23

appreciate that because that's exactly I mean, we're all on in

1:25

this weird human experience. So it's

1:28

nice to feel a little bit less alone and

1:30

know that other people are struggling with this stuff

1:32

too, So I really appreciate that. And

1:34

the guest this week, shifting gears

1:37

and getting back to our regularly scheduled

1:39

programming, we have Josh Call

1:41

who is the bassist and co lyricist

1:44

in the band Foxing. And for those

1:46

of you that have listened to the year end episode

1:48

that I did with my good friend Joey,

1:50

realized that the Foxing record is quite

1:53

good because it made my top ten list.

1:56

So I was really excited to dive in

1:58

and know more about them, because frankly, I don't know anything

2:00

about them besides well, once I started to do

2:02

some research, I realized like, oh wow, they're from

2:04

St. Louis. Like that's a really weird

2:06

thing, um, just because I mean, my

2:09

experience with St. Louis is uh. I wouldn't say

2:11

limited, because I've been there a few times and I've played a few

2:13

shows there, most notably at a

2:15

comedy club there. I played a show and it

2:17

was pretty well, I wouldn't say terrible,

2:20

but sparsely attended, will say, maybe

2:22

about twenty or thirty people. There, but it was

2:24

just weird playing at a comedy club, because

2:26

you know that was set up for a comedy and not a

2:28

hardcore punk show. But I digress.

2:31

So Josh was really, really awesome, And

2:34

I love this conversation because I'm

2:36

always a little hesitant to

2:38

bring people into this uh weird,

2:40

wild world of of podcasts in this show

2:43

in particular, that haven't done

2:45

a ton of press or in the middle of a press

2:47

cycle, because you know, they're used to kind of the standard

2:49

interview. So here I come in with

2:52

this, Hey, let's talk for an hour about your life.

2:54

They're like, whoa hold on, I don't know how

2:56

much I want to share. So Josh

2:58

was a great sport and talks a lot about

3:00

stuff that, um, you probably won't

3:02

hear anywhere else. So let's get

3:05

some business stuff out of the way. I've decided

3:07

to dive into the whole Amazon affiliate

3:09

thing, And for those of you who are unaware, it's

3:12

basically a program in which you know, I

3:14

presume you shop on Amazon. I would say,

3:17

like a wide swath of

3:19

the country and the world shops from Amazon.

3:21

So if you don't have the money to contribute

3:24

to the show in the ways that you would like to.

3:26

Here's an easy way for you to do it. I will toss

3:29

this referral link in the

3:31

show notes and basically what it is your

3:33

bookmarket. You put it on your your phone,

3:35

you put it on your web browser. However you

3:37

keep track of this, I don't care. But what

3:40

you can do is you press

3:42

that link and then it'll take you to the Amazon

3:44

homepage. You'll log in as you normally do, your

3:46

shop as you normally do by whatever you want. But basically,

3:49

the show gets a four kickback.

3:52

So whatever your total amount is, we

3:54

get four percent of that. Amazon gives that

3:56

back to me for referring

3:58

you to Amazon, which is funny because

4:00

it's like, hey, if you heard the Amazon before, it's like, yeah,

4:03

of course. But anyways, that's the way their program

4:05

works. So click on

4:07

that link in the show notes, or I'll also put it on

4:09

the website and save it forever and

4:11

do all your shopping through there, and it will contribute

4:13

to the show in ways that you won't even

4:15

know. And all of a sudden I'll be like, oh, wow, great,

4:18

that was a check. Thank you so much. That's

4:20

going to uh keep me paying my

4:22

my producer, and maybe you know not

4:25

have my kids starve. That's a really

4:28

big gilt trip. I apologize. But anyways,

4:30

Amazon affiliate, I've I've doven into

4:32

that Dovin dived doved anyways,

4:35

So please do that and you can support the show and

4:37

you don't have to give any money out of your heart earned

4:39

pockets. Um. Also,

4:41

over the course of the next couple of weeks, you will be hearing

4:43

some commercials for the fellow shows

4:46

that are a part of the jabber Job Media network. So

4:48

go find some of your new favorite podcasts.

4:51

Okay, and um maybe one of

4:53

those ads will point you in the right direction.

4:55

So Josh call, like I said, was

4:59

that was is currently the bassist

5:01

in Foxing and like I said,

5:03

love the record. I was really excited about

5:05

this conversation and he delivered

5:08

in spades. We talked about his

5:10

life in the military. We talked about the

5:12

Midwest and how

5:14

they've coped with the newfound attention

5:16

that they've had as a band. So a lot of

5:19

really really insightful, uh stuff

5:21

that I think you will enjoy it. So here's

5:24

Josh, and I will talk to you after the show.

5:26

He's over. I

5:34

first came became aware of you guys obviously when you signed

5:36

with a Triple Crown. But I first saw you guys where

5:38

I actually had more of an impression when

5:41

you came through with the Hotel Year. I think you played

5:43

chain reaction. If I'm not mistaken, you're

5:45

from You're from California, from southern California. Sorry

5:47

I should have specified that. Yeah,

5:49

So you guys came through and I watched

5:52

you play, and I was immediately like, oh,

5:54

like, this is this is cool? Like I didn't

5:57

honestly, I didn't listen to your record. Um,

6:00

and it was because I mean, um uh.

6:03

Basically, I was immediately taken by the fact that

6:06

you guys seemed very um,

6:08

earnest about what you were doing. There was no kind

6:10

of because obviously there's a difference

6:12

between earnest and being pretentious

6:14

about what it is that you're doing. So I kind of was

6:16

like, you know, these guys mean it, and then um

6:19

the you know, Honestly, I listened to the record

6:22

and I was like, this is cool. It didn't blow my

6:24

socks off, But then it wasn't honestly until

6:26

your newest record, where I was like Jesus

6:28

Christ, like this is a definitive step

6:31

in a direction that will you

6:33

know, put you guys in in playing with different

6:35

bands and obviously breaking out of the sort

6:38

of you know, basement show world, even

6:40

though you guys will obviously still be comfortable

6:42

playing those those those places. But um,

6:45

is the general reaction from this LP

6:48

to you, I mean, like whether it's like publicly

6:51

or people expressed you like, oh my

6:53

gosh, like this is a huge step in uh,

6:56

either the right direction or just kind of,

6:58

um, you know, a more expansive universe

7:01

that you guys will not solely just be playing in front

7:03

of a hundred people in a basement,

7:05

you know. Yeah, I mean

7:07

I think that, uh,

7:10

the reaction to the new record

7:12

has been somewhat polarizing. Uh

7:15

so, Um,

7:17

I think two people that are extremely

7:21

rooted and grounded in a specific

7:24

scene, uh, the record kind

7:26

of took them back a little

7:28

bit. Maybe they weren't expecting that. I think

7:30

that, uh, you know, when we put

7:33

out the Albatross, I think that also

7:35

kind of had the same or a

7:38

similar reaction where people from

7:40

our EPs and splits

7:43

and whatnot that we had that we had put out before

7:45

weren't necessarily expecting something like the Albatross.

7:48

Um. And I think in the same regard

7:51

Dealer is similar.

7:54

I think people that have a maybe

7:59

have a wider range

8:02

of tastes understand uh,

8:06

kind of what we were going for and

8:09

maybe can connect our influences

8:11

on a personal level a little bit better.

8:14

So I think that there are definitely people that, um,

8:17

I just want us to be screaming, and they just

8:19

think that the only way to convey emotion

8:23

in music is to yell

8:25

about it, and we

8:30

as as fans of music, that's

8:33

not really what we listen to and that's not really

8:35

what we enjoy. And so

8:38

UM, the record definitely

8:40

I think reflects our own tastes a

8:43

little bit more clearly than

8:46

our last record. And it seems

8:48

like the people that get it, uh, it's

8:50

been very overwhelming, um,

8:53

overwhelmingly positive, and they've

8:55

been comparing it to things that I

8:58

would say, um, maybe

9:00

fall in line a little bit close,

9:02

like a little bit closer with our own tastes.

9:05

Um, And so in that regard, it's really

9:07

really affirming because

9:10

that was that was a goal for

9:12

us, was to make something that we

9:16

felt like we wanted

9:19

to make a record that we would listen to if we weren't

9:21

in the band. And

9:23

uh so yeah, I feel really happy with

9:26

it. And to see people, you

9:28

know, comparing it to you know, a band

9:30

like like the Antlers or

9:33

uh segar Ross or I mean,

9:35

which I think that's an insane comparison

9:38

because nobody should be compared to

9:40

that band, and I don't think that we're anywhere

9:42

near the level that that band

9:44

is. But to see it, uh be

9:48

at least held in the same uh

9:50

playing field to a very small

9:53

degree as bands in that

9:55

world, that's really really

9:57

um wonderful and really really

9:59

nice to see. Yeah,

10:02

no, I see what you're talking about, cause yeah,

10:04

I mean, you obviously aren't placing these labels

10:06

on yourself. This is what people are doing to you based

10:08

off of I think that the nugget

10:10

that I'm pulling out from what you're saying right there is

10:12

the fact that you're attempting to create a record

10:15

that you would like to listen to yourself, because I think

10:17

and honestly, to me, that's that shows a

10:19

sign of um maturity

10:22

when you do reach a certain age, because obviously,

10:24

when you first start playing in bands when you're whatever

10:26

fifteen or sixteen years old, like all you're doing

10:28

is being like, all right, I want to rip off

10:30

like strife and no effects. Let's

10:33

see if we can do this. And you don't,

10:35

you know, you don't have a musical vision. You just want to

10:37

emulate your favorite bands. But it isn't until

10:40

later where you start to realize that, like,

10:42

oh my music tastes of change, and how can that

10:45

reflect what I'm creating musically?

10:47

And it becomes that weird push and pull where

10:50

sometimes if a band has been

10:52

in a certain lane for a long period of time, that they

10:54

can't switch, you know, because they're

10:56

like, well, that's what we're like known for, and we can't

10:59

blow up our business structure because

11:01

we all of a sudden want to like sound like

11:03

the bands that we actually all listen to ourselves.

11:05

But since you guys are it a relatively

11:08

early tenure of your

11:10

you know, you stage in your career, it's

11:12

easier for you to kind of, you know, make that logical

11:15

evolution if that makes sense. Oh

11:17

yeah, totally. Uh yeah.

11:20

It's interesting because we've never really

11:22

agreed on bands, all five

11:24

of us. You know, there's there's

11:26

some bands that three or four of us really enjoy

11:29

and one of us doesn't like, or any combination

11:31

of you know, any combination

11:33

of numbers with members, but uh,

11:36

we we don't really discuss bands

11:39

as a reference point because it's kind

11:41

of one of those things where, uh,

11:43

you know, if you if you're trying to get

11:45

an idea across and you reference a band,

11:48

that idea or or that band might fall

11:50

on deaf years for you know, for like two or three members

11:53

in the band, so then your idea doesn't come across.

11:55

Um. So

11:58

you know, I've I've seen people, well um

12:01

online uh

12:03

in a in a negative way compare

12:06

our record to uh

12:08

you know things like Boni Their the National

12:10

and it's like that wasn't

12:13

our intention at all. It wasn't. I mean,

12:15

those are both bands that I think at

12:17

least maybe three of the members and the band enjoy.

12:20

But it's really strange when uh

12:23

uh people use things like

12:25

that as a negative reference point. And that's where

12:27

I guess, like kind of going back to your first thing

12:30

about the reaction to it. You know, there are some people

12:32

that they will not

12:34

be happy with it no matter what, as

12:36

long as it or if it doesn't

12:38

fall into the they're very uh

12:41

narrow parameter in terms

12:43

of what we should be doing. And when

12:46

you do that and you try to satisfy those people.

12:48

I think that that's when you're going

12:51

to be extremely um

12:54

personally unsatisfied with your own work. Right.

12:57

No, it's it's very very important

13:00

point because it does um ultimately,

13:04

whatever path you decided to go down from a musical

13:06

standpoint, um, the moment you

13:08

start playing into either

13:10

conventions or what is expected

13:13

um or what is capturing a certain

13:15

moment in a particular scene, whatever it is you're

13:17

playing to, that's when you start to feel

13:20

the you know, you're just going through the motions at

13:22

that point, like you don't you don't feel that,

13:24

you don't feel that, you know, the connective tissue that obviously

13:27

usually happens when a band just starts and you're

13:29

just like, oh, I just want to create music with my friends. Yeah,

13:32

And you can't win either way because

13:34

a lot of people, uh,

13:37

you know that they will complain and

13:39

say like, I just wish that this was more

13:41

like their last record. But you know, when it comes

13:43

down to it, do they really want you to make a record

13:46

that was just like they're the last one? And

13:48

if you did that two or three times, then all of

13:50

a sudden they would say that, you know, this band

13:52

is stale and they never grow. And

13:54

then on the you know, kind

13:57

of the counter to that is if you change

13:59

too quickly, all of a sudden, you've

14:01

alienated a bunch of people that like your band,

14:04

uh for whatever reason. So

14:06

it's really just kind of this thing where if you're not

14:08

satisfying yourself first and foremost,

14:10

as you know, a creator, then

14:15

you're you can't really I guess you're just like, you can't

14:18

rely on the

14:20

opinions of of

14:23

of the kids or however you

14:25

however you want to group that because there collectively

14:29

extremely fickle opinions

14:31

and and and I think it's first

14:34

and foremost it's important to make something

14:36

that you're happy with, uh, and

14:38

people will either come with you or or

14:40

they won't. But that's really kind of

14:42

beyond our control. And

14:46

plus the like you said that

14:48

you know, the kids, the pro rebal scene, that

14:51

that stays the same because obviously each

14:53

year that goes by, you yourself were getting older,

14:56

but that crop of of young

14:58

you know, fourteen to eighteen old stays

15:00

exactly the same. Like obviously, yeah changes

15:03

over time as far as what they're

15:05

it, what I what they are into, but

15:07

there will always be kids supplanting the

15:10

ones that came before them, so you can't. Yeah, it's

15:12

just that snake eating its tail where it's just like, oh,

15:14

well, maybe if we do this to keep up with the fourteen

15:17

year olds, it's like, well, the next year there will

15:19

be a new fourteen year old that will have a completely

15:21

different set of parameters to judge you by.

15:23

Yeah, but I think that it's definitely our goal,

15:26

or maybe it should be anybody's goal as

15:29

a musician, to challenge

15:32

your listener to expand beyond

15:35

whatever can whatever

15:37

you know, uh parameters or

15:40

conventions, they they're used to. Um.

15:44

I guess what I mean by that is that my

15:47

favorite records of all time the

15:49

records that have stuck with

15:51

me and and that I look

15:53

back at as being definitive kind

15:55

of uh forks in the road or

15:58

or however you

16:00

want to say it. A lot of those

16:02

records were albums that didn't immediately

16:04

hit me. There were records that I

16:06

had to listen to over and over again, and

16:09

and they they stuck.

16:11

They kind of like stuck in my brain as something

16:13

like why what is it about this that

16:16

that that I don't understand or I don't get

16:18

There's something here that is that is

16:21

challenging my thought as to what you

16:23

know, uh

16:25

what I what I assumed was acceptable

16:27

or something within music, and that

16:29

you know, we from the from the

16:31

very beginning of making this

16:34

new record knew that it wasn't

16:37

going to be as immediate as the last

16:39

one. It was something that took

16:43

time. It was something that, um,

16:47

not everybody would understand why we

16:49

want wanted to make something that was

16:51

a little bit more subdued, but that was the

16:53

subject matter and that was where our headspace was

16:55

as a band. And you know, you

17:00

can't, I guess you just kind of can't really like, uh,

17:02

it's like it's like guessing the weather,

17:05

and UM, it's not really

17:07

our job to do that. It's just our job to be

17:09

honest and and make make the work

17:11

that that that comes

17:13

to us. I really, I really like the sentiment

17:16

you shared in there in regards to um,

17:18

you know, obviously challenging the listener no matter

17:21

what age, because it's like you do

17:23

you do feel and I'm sure you can

17:25

name records that did this to you where it's

17:27

like I remember when I was whatever, seventeen eighteen

17:29

years old and I

17:32

was aware of the band Neurosis. I knew that

17:34

they existed. I listened to them before and I was kind of like,

17:36

oh, this, that's cool. But then I remember staying

17:38

home sick one day in high school

17:41

and listening to Times of Grace

17:43

and having that record just completely

17:46

change my perception of like what heavy

17:48

music is a blah blah blah. But it's like everybody

17:51

should have those those records that do alter

17:53

their perception. And I think that's exactly what

17:55

you're talking about, where it's just like, yeah, you gotta

17:58

you have to push a person to you challenge

18:01

themselves. And sometimes it's you know this record,

18:03

or sometimes it's maybe you're not ready for it. Maybe in

18:05

two years, all of a sudden, you look at this record, you know.

18:08

Yeah, think about I mean a

18:10

band that immediately came to my head. Uh,

18:13

definitely, because they played a

18:16

big role in my life when I was younger. I

18:18

mean, think about the role of the Deaf Tones.

18:21

Like a band like the Deaf Tones.

18:23

They came up in this new metal scene, surrounded

18:26

by bands like Corn and Limp Biscuit and

18:29

you know whatever, mud Bane and

18:31

all of this stuff, but they

18:33

think about how bold and

18:36

and scary the

18:39

moves that they were making as a band. Word like, they're

18:41

very challenging for that genre. I mean

18:43

you can hear things like depeche Mode and The

18:45

Smiths, and you can hear this curiosity

18:48

in a genre that really does

18:51

not stray away from its uh tendencies,

18:54

and think about how many fans

18:56

they probably lost album the

18:59

album, But when you go back and you look over

19:01

their catalog, it's it's really impressive

19:03

thinking like, man, you guys somehow walked

19:06

this line where you were able to play

19:08

like oz Fest, but

19:10

then you also have these

19:12

songs like Digital Bath, you know

19:14

on White Pony, which are just like straight up

19:17

like shoe

19:19

gazey beautiful songs.

19:23

It's really interesting. Yeah, it's it's

19:25

a great band to be able to um

19:27

use this kind of like you said, it's sort of test case to

19:30

see how these things can obviously evolve

19:32

and age gracefully as opposed to like,

19:34

oh, you're just trying to like recapture

19:36

your old new metal glory or whatever. Yeah, they

19:38

probably pushed their fans to the limit.

19:41

I mean true, probably

19:43

consistently, but I think that there

19:45

but if you look at their discography, it's a

19:47

lot more rewarding than percent

19:51

of their peers, if not obviously,

19:54

I think we can throw it. We can throw that extra in

19:56

there too. Yeah, I'm not sure if there's anybody

19:58

else. And that gen of that really hold

20:01

gets to hold the torch, right. Um.

20:04

And so were you yourself born and raised

20:07

in the St. Louis area, because that's obviously where

20:09

you guys say that you're from. But were you guys kind

20:11

of from the suburbs or the actual city proper?

20:14

So I was born in Miami, Florida.

20:17

Um, and then I was raised

20:19

until I was about twelve

20:22

or so in the Bay Area

20:24

in California. And then

20:26

I spent a year, actually

20:29

just a shy of a year in a suburb

20:31

of Denver, Colorado, and

20:34

then I moved to St. Louis. You

20:36

were moving around a lot? Why?

20:39

Um, Well, each one

20:41

kind of has a different reason. But

20:43

yeah, the short, the short foremaster

20:46

would just be that my my mom became a

20:48

flight attendant, and um,

20:51

she went to training

20:54

for United Airlines and then that

20:57

was in Chicago. And then after

21:00

your training is up, I guess it's just like depends

21:02

on whatever class you're in for the training,

21:05

but you get a list of options

21:07

as to where you want to be based out of

21:09

and she had the option of Chicago or Colorado.

21:12

She had a lot of family in Colorado, so

21:15

she opted for that, and

21:18

I don't think either

21:20

of us really liked it there. And

21:22

then she reconnected with a

21:25

man who eventually became my stepfather, who

21:27

she had uh

21:30

dated when we were living in California,

21:32

and then he moved back to St. Louis. There's

21:34

a very chance happening kind

21:36

of like, uh,

21:39

a random occurrence where she was flying

21:41

into St. Louis and decided to give him a call,

21:44

and from there, you know, they

21:46

they started seeing each other again, and

21:48

then we moved here to St. Louis. Yeah,

21:52

no, I mean that that makes sense. I mean obviously, usually

21:54

a more transient lifestyle from

21:57

you know, like your upbringing is usually rooted

21:59

in like, oh, it's my profession. Like you know, I was

22:01

either like an architect or I was an army brat

22:03

or whatever. So it makes sense that the whole flight attended

22:06

thing. So you're what was your family

22:08

structure, like obviously, like it

22:10

sounds like there was a divorce at some point in

22:12

there, or a separation at some

22:14

point. Was did you have brothers and sisters and everything?

22:17

Uh? No, Actually I

22:19

didn't I just

22:21

found out within the past year that I

22:24

actually have a half sister. My

22:28

mom and dad were they I think they

22:30

were probably separated, maybe

22:33

when I was three or four

22:35

months old. My mom left

22:37

Florida and uh went to

22:40

California where my grandfather owned

22:43

a house, and we lived with him, like

22:45

I was saying, for about the first twelve years of my life. Uh

22:48

so he was kind of my father figure and

22:50

I was an only child. Uh

22:52

and yeah, I was just my mom my grandfather.

22:55

Uh and then he had renters, So

22:57

I guess I was to some degree raised

22:59

by renters. Sure, yeah,

23:02

you were. You were figuring out by

23:04

yourself with some sort of parental

23:06

ish figures around you. Yeah,

23:09

if you want to call them parntal. I

23:12

remember there was a guy named Monty who

23:14

lived with my lived in that house,

23:16

and he was extremely old and very grumpy

23:19

and just smoked cigarettes all day. Uh

23:21

so I don't know, like he's

23:24

pretty paternal. Yeah, he was

23:26

older than you. That's a that's about it. Yeah,

23:29

by like sixty seventy years. Um

23:33

so it's not I mean, it's it sounds

23:35

like a very um well, I wouldn't

23:37

even I wouldn't even classified it as chaotic, but

23:39

obviously, like I was saying earlier, transient, Um,

23:42

did you did you feel like

23:44

you started to develop an identity like when

23:46

you were up in San Francisco?

23:48

Is that kind of when you started to you know, recognize

23:50

the world around you and start to, you know, feel out

23:52

who you were as a person. I

23:56

think that I, as a young person, a

23:58

lot of my identity

24:01

or maybe my personality was shaped by

24:04

my grandfather and his influence. Uh

24:07

he not

24:10

too long ago. Him and I were talking, this is

24:12

before he passed away, but we were talking

24:14

about how when I

24:16

was young, when I first,

24:19

you know, I guess, was starting to go to school,

24:22

I was apparently a very serious, very

24:24

analytical, and kind of quiet

24:27

kid. And he felt

24:31

as if I, because of the

24:33

kind of the chaos of my life

24:35

with my mom's situation and

24:37

our living situation, that I

24:39

was going to grow up without an imagination.

24:42

So he was

24:45

extremely focused on

24:48

adding a sense of, I guess like wonderment

24:50

to my life. And and

24:53

I think that

24:55

that influence is something that I

24:58

will always be grateful for because

25:00

I think without him and and

25:02

and his I guess keen sense

25:04

of how um

25:07

sad of a child? I was, I

25:10

think I probably would have grown up

25:12

to be a completely different person. And I

25:14

still think that I have some of that left

25:17

in me. I I feel sometimes

25:20

like I am a hair

25:23

uh analytical or maybe

25:25

a little dour. But yeah,

25:28

well, I mean that sounds that sounds

25:30

very interesting because I think there is something inherently

25:33

unique about having a large influence

25:36

uh played in part

25:38

due to grandparents because of um, I mean,

25:40

I I completely identify with you because

25:42

my my parents were divorced when I was like three or

25:44

so, and my mom we lived right

25:46

next door to my grandparents out of sheer function

25:49

because you know, they would help take me to school and everything else,

25:51

and so um. The you

25:53

know, usually people view their grandparents as like

25:56

those weird old people they have to visit on the holidays.

25:58

But then when you do have this sort of um

26:00

you know, like fatherly figure or motherly figure

26:03

played by the grandparents, UM, it's

26:05

something so inherently special

26:07

that a lot of people can't experience,

26:09

you know. Yeah, I definitely think that

26:12

there's a difference between like kind of the two.

26:15

I mean, there's probably a multitude of different

26:18

experiences for people with their grandparents,

26:20

but for me, my

26:23

grandfather was essentially like

26:25

my father. Uh, except

26:28

you know, grandparents tend

26:30

to get all

26:32

of the good and not really have to worry so much

26:34

about the bad. Um.

26:37

So my I think that maybe my grandfather

26:39

got it a little bit easy because, um,

26:42

you know, when you are a grandparent rather than

26:44

an actual parent, you don't

26:46

necessarily have to deal with all

26:49

of the growing pains. Yeah,

26:51

so you can check in and out. That's like, you know, yeah,

26:54

you could be like, oh, I'll play with the kid for a few hours and

26:56

then all right, see you later. Gotta give

26:58

the kid back to the parents. Yeah, totally.

27:01

Um. And so then, uh, you

27:04

know St. Louis. So you landed kind of

27:06

in St. Louis when you were what like thirteen, fourteen

27:08

or a little bit over, a little bit younger. I think I think

27:11

I was about twelve maybe or thirteen, because

27:13

yeah, I think probably about thirteen. It was right before

27:16

high school got it. Did a year

27:18

and then high school got it. Um.

27:21

Because St. Louis is a really weird city. I've spent

27:23

a lot of time in the Midwest. Um,

27:26

partially, like my my stepfather was

27:28

raised in a town called Farmington, Illinois,

27:30

which was you know, a totally population two or three

27:33

thousand. I'm pretty sure I know where that is.

27:35

It's like an hour south of Peoria. It's yeah,

27:37

yeah, I mean I know where it is totally. So

27:40

it's like anyway, spending a lot of time there and then kind

27:42

of, you know, visiting the surrounding areas. I would go

27:44

to St. Louis and um,

27:46

it's so like I really

27:48

can't describe it because it's such a

27:50

bizarre city of like, you know, such a mixture

27:52

of of old historical um,

27:55

you know, buildings and obviously the St. Louis arch and

27:57

everything else. Um. And then there's you know, extreme

28:00

poverty, and then there's also, um,

28:02

you know, really rich areas. I guess you could kind of paint

28:04

most American cities like this. But what was your, I

28:07

guess experience now kind of reflecting

28:09

on you know, as you've grown up in St. Louis and

28:11

you know, what's your relationship with the city. Well,

28:15

so first off, they say

28:17

this, Uh, the

28:20

second that I got off the flight

28:23

in St. Louis, I

28:25

thought that I was having a heart attack because

28:27

I had never experienced humidity before.

28:30

I mean, I

28:33

was in the back of this this truck and

28:36

I couldn't breathe. It was just this like

28:38

heavy weight on my chest and I was like,

28:40

you know, really young. So obviously

28:43

I had to talk myself out of the fact that it's

28:45

probably probably not having a heart attack

28:47

it you know, twelve years old, but it

28:49

was horrifying to me. So

28:51

that was like my very first experience of saying list

28:54

and maybe that's a microcostum

28:56

from my that's a that's a that's a that's a small

28:59

little like, Uh, that's my experience

29:01

with St. Louis. On the nutshell, you're

29:05

you're constantly feeling like you're battling heart attacks,

29:07

but it's a different thing that you're battling. Yeah,

29:10

I mean, I've kind of grown to love this city in

29:12

a strange way. I definitely

29:15

missed the West Coast just because I feel

29:17

like that's kind of where my heart is, and every

29:19

time we get to go back on tour, I feel just

29:21

kind of like a sense of calm.

29:24

Uh. St. Louis is

29:26

a really really interesting city. Uh.

29:30

There aren't a lot of cities like it because I

29:32

think I think one thing that separates

29:34

it is you can see

29:36

what it almost was. So if

29:38

you look at back,

29:40

you know when when they did like the World's Fair, and in

29:43

the early nineteen hundreds

29:45

St. Louis was massive, and it was this gorgeous

29:47

city that was supposed to be. It was essentially

29:50

considered like the New York of the Midwest.

29:52

And through a series of I

29:56

guess mishandlings and probably

29:58

pretty deep deep rooted corruption,

30:02

uh, the railroad companies ended

30:04

up moving

30:06

their hub to Chicago, which

30:09

then Chicago became what it is and

30:11

St. Louis, I think, since

30:13

then has kind of crippled along and

30:16

just become worse and worse.

30:18

So it's really interesting because there's so much history

30:21

and there's so many um

30:24

influential and uh,

30:26

groundbreaking artists that have come from here.

30:28

And if you look at the architecture,

30:31

a lot of it is dilapidated and there's there's

30:33

very like derelic kind of vibe

30:35

to the city. But you can see under

30:39

all of that what the city almost became,

30:41

which would have been this massive,

30:44

massive metropolitan

30:46

area. So I don't know, it's it's

30:48

a very interesting city in that regard, and

30:50

I think that because

30:52

of that, the city has

30:54

a little bit of a chip on its shoulder. Uh.

30:57

You know, there's definitely

31:00

a lot of issues here that I've noticed with

31:03

uh, segregation, uh

31:06

and and definitely a lot

31:08

of sadness here. Um.

31:10

But at the same time, I think people that are from

31:12

here are proud of the

31:14

city, and um,

31:17

I think that they love it. So yeah,

31:19

no, it's a really that's a really interesting point of the

31:22

Yeah, they're in very rare instances.

31:24

Can you see what a city

31:26

could have been? Because I mean, yeah, that was obviously

31:28

the central point of the United States of America,

31:30

and like you had to travel through St.

31:33

Louis in order to get anywhere. Um.

31:35

But yeah, I know that's a really really reflective

31:37

description of that. Um. And so then

31:39

as you started to kind of um because

31:42

I've I've heard you mentioned and obviously I

31:44

know you've been peppered with questions in regards to

31:46

um. You know, are you guys a Christian band? Are you Christians?

31:49

Like you know, the whole the whole religious component.

31:52

Um. But were you raised with a

31:54

certain particular strain of religion

31:56

or where did that kind of you know come into your

31:58

life because obviously you've come out the other side

32:00

of it, uh, you know, not not adhering

32:03

to anyone religion or believing anything from

32:05

that perspective or in a higher power, whatever you

32:07

want to label it as. UM. But where did that kind of religious

32:10

influence come into your life? And what sort of strain

32:13

was it that you and

32:15

so my mom, uh when

32:18

she had me and when she was living with

32:20

my father in Florida, I believed that she was not

32:23

of any sort of religious

32:25

affiliation. And I think that her experience with

32:27

my father and all of that led

32:29

her to some sort of crisis

32:32

of faith. Uh So

32:35

she ended up becoming a

32:37

Christian. And I

32:39

was raised going to

32:42

UM. I'm trying to think of

32:44

exactly what the type of school

32:46

was. I think it was just a nondenominational Christian

32:49

school. Uh. And

32:51

then I had also gone to a Lutheran school for

32:54

one year. And our church we kind

32:56

of like bounced back and forth between Evangelical

32:59

and then we went to one church that

33:01

was just a straight up like hippie commune

33:04

church type thing where uh

33:06

you know, people are speaking

33:09

in tongues and dancing barefoot

33:11

and they would have they would host

33:13

service like in middle schools because

33:16

they didn't have their own building. And

33:18

uh yeah, I mean I kind of bounced around

33:21

a lot of different uh

33:23

sex of Christianity. Most

33:26

of them, I would say, are on

33:29

the more liberal side

33:31

of of the religion, but

33:33

um probably not as liberal

33:36

as you know. Um

33:38

uh, it can it can get. I'm

33:44

sorry I was on mute for a second. You're

33:47

like, I was like, oh, did I like, did I say

33:49

something bad? Absolutely not a

33:52

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now on with the show. Hello,

35:37

this is top Mall and from Washmo dot com

35:39

and on my podcast, I've interviewed the who's

35:41

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35:43

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35:45

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35:48

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Club. To listen, go to iTunes dot com

35:59

slash Washed of Emo. I don't even

36:01

think about trade marking Emo night.

36:08

And so then as you started to develop

36:10

more of your own identity, like usually, I kind

36:12

of attribute that to obviously high school and once you start

36:14

to get um, you know, other influences

36:17

in your life. Um, were

36:19

you still kind of that, like you said, you

36:21

know, analytical, pensive

36:24

kid with you know, the imaginative

36:27

side that was obviously bestowed

36:29

upon you by your grandfather. Um? Or did

36:31

you kind of start to develop one

36:33

or more of those sides a little bit more when you were in high

36:36

school? Yeah? So, right before high

36:38

school, I went to a

36:40

magnet school. I'm not sure if you know what a magnet

36:42

school is. Yeah, I'm familiar. Yeah, it was

36:45

the I went to a magnet school for visual

36:47

and performing arts. I had been acting

36:49

since I was a really young kid, uh,

36:52

and I went with an emphasis

36:55

in acting. But then I also picked up as

36:57

one of my uh extra

36:59

crick dealers or one of my non

37:01

core classes. I picked up orchestra and

37:04

that's where I started playing cello. So I was

37:06

bouncing between doing

37:08

theater and and and orchestra

37:12

and from there, moving into high

37:14

school, I stopped

37:16

playing the cello and

37:19

I was pretty focused on acting

37:22

throughout all of high school, while at the same

37:24

time always playing in bands. I

37:27

had picked up bass guitar after cello.

37:31

Uh. And I was doing theater um

37:33

and then also improv theater for

37:36

a long time, and I thought that that was kind of where my life

37:38

was headed. Um,

37:41

because I was really good at it. Not

37:43

to um, not

37:47

to my own horn, but I I was.

37:49

I was really good at improv and it

37:51

was something I really enjoyed, and so

37:54

I had planned on at

37:56

one time, I had planned on moving to Chicago

37:58

for improv uh. And

38:00

then I had also applied to schools

38:02

uh to

38:05

to go to film school. Um

38:07

and Uh. Yeah, I think in

38:10

regard to your question about like my mindset,

38:13

I think that I

38:16

was definitely like a class clown. Um.

38:20

I was probably a teacher's worst nightmare

38:22

because I wasn't goofy class clown.

38:25

I was very biting

38:27

and very sarcastic and very

38:30

inquisitive and really,

38:33

um, I really knew

38:35

how to to to push to

38:38

the core of

38:40

of whatever subject matter we were learning

38:42

about. And I think that that probably drove

38:44

teachers up the wall because I

38:46

think when when you have a kid who

38:49

is just saying goofy things to make people laugh,

38:52

that's that's probably easier to handle than somebody

38:54

that's not only making kids laugh, but

38:56

it's also making them

38:59

question, uh what whatever

39:02

we're learning about. UM. I

39:04

think you can easily squelch somebody

39:08

that's just saying goofy things. But when

39:10

you kind of dismantle the entire uh

39:13

structure of of the classroom

39:16

environment by derailing it

39:18

with with with these very um

39:21

profound kind of thoughts about

39:24

about the lessons or whatever, I think

39:26

that that probably becomes a huge, huge

39:29

undertaking. And when I look back at myself,

39:31

I think that I'm was

39:33

probably like an evil dickhead, and I should

39:35

have I should have calmed down. But I think that

39:38

I had a lot of anger in me uh

39:41

growing up, just because of my

39:43

family situation and not really having a father,

39:46

and I wasn't really happy

39:48

with my mom remarrying

39:51

and all of that. And I think that I

39:54

I've always used to some degree humor

39:56

as a coping mechanism

39:58

so whether that be with off theater or

40:01

like, you know again, uh,

40:04

the way that I acted in the classroom environment.

40:07

UM, yeah,

40:09

I would say that it's

40:12

it's black

40:14

humor, like dark humor. But

40:18

yeah, that's that that that was kind of

40:20

the way that I, uh uh

40:23

found my own voice, at least in

40:25

my teenage years. Well, it's

40:27

it's cool. I mean I really like the the experience

40:30

that you had in regards to UM.

40:32

You were doing exactly what obviously most kids

40:35

are supposed to do in high school. UM, as

40:37

far as just like experimenting with a bunch of stuff, because

40:39

obviously it's like you know and I as

40:42

much as you're supposed to do that, I think a lot of kids

40:44

don't, you know. It's like they do like maybe one

40:46

sport and like maybe participate in

40:49

something else. But it's like you know, you

40:51

were you were mixing it up with a lot of different things in order

40:53

to um, like you said, sort of establish

40:56

you know, what it is that you actually liked and had a

40:58

passion for, as opposed to just like, oh

41:00

well maybe it'll come to me tomorrow, but

41:03

there's no active engagement, you know. Yeah,

41:05

I mean we were doing I was doing like

41:08

I was playing shows when I was

41:10

fifteen years old, uh, and

41:12

then doing improv theater stuff

41:14

in St. Louis City outside of the school.

41:17

Uh. You know, I mean like I my

41:20

first some of my first show experiences,

41:23

Like I was fifteen and I got

41:25

to open for of Montreal. Uh,

41:28

my first show ever, that's like that was at a real

41:30

venue. Was opening for the

41:33

Horse, the band of course, who

41:36

I actually ran into. We ran into

41:38

them in uh in Berlin. Uh.

41:41

It was crazy. We were playing in

41:43

Berlin and they were playing across the street from us, and

41:45

we went over there and talked to them. That's

41:49

yeah. But so you know that was crazy,

41:51

you know, like fifteen years old, uh,

41:54

playing at at these venues

41:56

with these bands that I really admired. I was a

41:58

really big Montreal fan when I was fifteen,

42:01

and it was you know, I got to uh

42:03

I played with like Bob Nanna and uh

42:06

some bands on like Drag City

42:08

and uh I played like Owen

42:10

Palette like uh like a final Fantasy

42:12

sure yeah like and I was like, you know, fifteen

42:14

sixteen, So that experience, those experiences

42:17

were really uh I guess um

42:20

uh formidable, Yeah, formative,

42:23

that's what they were formative. Well, they were also probably

42:25

formidable because I was scary, I'm sure in respect.

42:28

Yeah, that was an improper use. And I now forever

42:31

this will be stamped in history

42:34

that I that I screwed up. It's hey, these

42:36

are these are things that happened in a long form conversation.

42:38

This is what friends do. They correct each other in order to

42:41

make sure we use it appropriately

42:43

in the future. I guess. Yeah. Now, now listeners,

42:45

now you know it's all a facade.

42:48

Yeah. Um, but you you strike

42:50

me too, like how old are you currently? Are you like late

42:52

twenties? I just turned twenty seven. Okay,

42:55

yeah, you strike me as a much

42:57

like I'm thirty five and you definitely

43:00

the things that you're speaking about are not, I

43:02

guess, reflective of most fifteen year olds

43:05

experiences like you know, I mean honestly of Montreal.

43:07

It's like I didn't hear them until I started working at a

43:09

record store when I was like, you know, nineteen or twenty.

43:11

Um, if I listened to them when I was fifteen, I would

43:13

have been like, no, I'd rather listen to this Earth crisis

43:15

record? What THENK you talking about? Um?

43:18

But so it sounds like I mean you. And

43:20

plus I think that the way the band carries

43:22

him, your guys itself as a collective

43:25

unit, intentionally or intentionally, um,

43:27

is relatively mature. UM. And

43:30

I don't mean that as obviously, you know,

43:32

derogatory thing, um, but there is

43:34

sort of that air of like, oh,

43:36

even though um, you know this is our

43:38

second record and you know many people would

43:40

anticipate us being in our early twenties, UM,

43:43

there is I don't know if you there's

43:45

no question wrap it up in this, but beyond just

43:47

the fact that it's like you guys

43:49

maybe are are more confident to put forth

43:52

um, the fact that you kind

43:54

of you know, know what you're doing better than

43:57

when you did when you were in early twenties. If that makes sense,

44:00

I think that makes sense. I'm not certain. Um

44:05

yeah, maybe we're saying we have an air of old

44:07

souls, right yeah.

44:09

Well, I think with the old soul in this kind

44:11

of comes uh confidence because obviously,

44:13

when you're you know, younger, there's a

44:16

dumb confidence about you, but then that blossoms

44:19

into something of real confidence because you've been doing

44:21

something for a little bit longer. Um. Because

44:23

you you previously played uh

44:26

in an instrumental band. What was the name of the band.

44:28

It's called Hunter Gatherer. I played in it

44:30

with our drummer John and

44:33

our and our first guitar player, Matt, who

44:35

are Foxing's first guitar player. Got it

44:38

and that that was Was that kind of the first

44:40

band where you were really um, I guess

44:42

touring, Like obviously you were playing local shows and stuff

44:44

like that. But was that the first thing that you kind of, um,

44:47

you know, did on a more national level. No,

44:49

not even actually Foxing

44:51

is Foxing is pretty much the first

44:53

band that anybody in the

44:56

band has done on a more serious

44:58

level. We've all played in Lewis

45:00

and UH for years with other

45:02

bands, and Salis is a very kind of kind

45:04

of a tight knit, smaller scene

45:06

where everybody is aware of each

45:09

other, even you know, regardless of genre.

45:12

Um, and there's a lot of intermingling between

45:15

members. You know, a lot of people

45:17

play in four or five bands. Um

45:19

and yeah, um.

45:22

Hunter Gather was the

45:25

first band that I had done after

45:28

high school. I played in this folk

45:30

band with one of the guitar players

45:32

from my high school band for a little bit.

45:35

I got to play a couple of shows, but

45:38

I took a really long break from music, and

45:40

it was kind of a

45:43

chance a thing

45:45

where I moved in with a friend of mine

45:47

and the previous tenant

45:50

or whatever, the person that lived in that room that

45:52

I moved in, they left behind a computer

45:55

that they said that I could use, and he just

45:57

had a massive hard drive full of music and

46:00

I just started pulling

46:02

up stuff and that's where I first

46:05

kind of got turned onto a lot of

46:07

instrumental music. When I was in high school,

46:10

I was really aware of, you know, kind

46:12

of the obvious ones like God'speedy

46:14

Black Emperor or Explosions in the Sky.

46:16

But this hard drive was full of stuff,

46:18

you know, things from Japan and

46:20

and uh, you know, the Netherlands

46:23

and all kinds of stuff that I had never heard before,

46:26

and it really opened me up.

46:28

And he had also left behind

46:30

a bass guitar and a practice hand, which

46:32

I hadn't played in quite a long time.

46:35

And at that point I really wasn't

46:37

doing much, uh So I

46:40

just started picking it up and messing

46:42

around, and I

46:44

guess I got the drive again and

46:47

just a lot of things happened where I,

46:49

uh, everything kind of fell into place where

46:52

I put the band together, which

46:54

was Hunter Gather and uh yeah,

46:57

I think we did it for maybe about three years,

46:59

and we didn't do a lot, Like we made an EP

47:02

and we did a couple of radio things. We

47:04

got to play with some bands that I really

47:06

love. It was the first time we played

47:08

with uh this Town Needs Guns

47:10

who are now ttn G, who we just

47:13

toured with in Foxing, And I was crazy

47:15

to tell them, like, we I played

47:17

with your band five years ago at this art space,

47:20

you know, and things like that. But uh,

47:23

yeah, I really enjoyed that band. That's

47:25

really cool. Yeah, I think

47:27

when you have those those experiences that you um,

47:31

you know, it doesn't matter obviously how large of a level

47:33

that it grew. It's just the fact that you do have these sort

47:35

of you know, local experiences that you can

47:38

build your chops, a repertoire

47:40

or however you want to put it, in order to be able to not

47:43

feel like you're, you know, completely useless

47:45

when you're playing in front of a large amount of people.

47:48

Also, yeah, it's also kind of like a relationship,

47:50

you know, Like how I

47:52

guess they say that every relationship that

47:54

you get out of you learn kind of the things

47:56

that you liked about that relationship,

47:59

and the things that you would want to do differently in your next relationships.

48:01

So for all of us, being

48:04

able to kind of go through those uh,

48:07

growth spurts just in St.

48:09

Louis, I think has helped us a lot with

48:12

knowing how we'd like to be

48:15

as a band when we're seeing

48:17

on a on a more national

48:20

or international level. For

48:22

sure. Um, and

48:24

correct me if I'm wrong too, But like do you, Um,

48:27

did you enroll in the military, or you have some experience

48:29

with the military, or what what did when

48:32

did that kind of into your life? Or or how wrong

48:34

am I in bringing that up in the first place. Well,

48:37

you're wrong only in the sense that you don't really enroll

48:39

in the military.

48:43

That's what friends, That's what friends do. We have to correct

48:45

each other, Josh, we

48:47

are friends, and I appreciate that. Yeah.

48:51

So I had been playing and Hunter Gather

48:53

for a couple of years, uh,

48:56

and I had I think at the time I had

48:58

two jobs or so, and then we all

49:01

of this would get into a very long history

49:04

of my life. But my relationship with my parents

49:06

at the time was non existent.

49:08

When I turned eighteen, they kicked me out of the house and

49:10

we didn't talk for years. Um.

49:14

And uh, I

49:16

was living with that friend that you know

49:18

where I where I had the computer and the bass

49:20

guitar. And then two

49:22

thousand eight hit and the

49:25

market completely crashed and I lost

49:28

I lost one of my jobs right after I

49:30

had quit, uh the

49:32

other job, thinking that I would have something else

49:35

lined up, but I didn't, and my life

49:37

kind of spiraled at that point. Um.

49:41

And it was that I

49:43

got to this level where I

49:45

remember vividly, Um,

49:47

I was stealing a piece of bolognie

49:50

and like a piece of cheese from

49:53

my roommates, like every day, and

49:55

that's all I was eating. My car

49:57

broke down, so I was

50:00

I got it. I got another job, and I was riding a bike

50:02

in the middle of winter to get to get to work.

50:04

And it's just horrible. And uh,

50:07

the end of our lease came up and they all moved

50:09

out and I and I was the last

50:11

one. And I remember being in that house alone.

50:13

There was this two story house with

50:16

no heat and no electricity.

50:19

And um, so half of

50:21

my family is I would

50:23

say, like military, and the other half of our musicians.

50:26

So my cousin he's actually right

50:28

now, he's working on his doctorate. Uh,

50:31

but he is a composer and a conductor,

50:33

and he's you know, he's done stuff everywhere,

50:36

you know, like the White House, Carnegie, all all

50:39

this stuff. Uh and and and

50:41

a lot of my other cousins are musicians

50:45

and and and then the other half is military.

50:47

And my mom had always wanted me

50:49

to kind of follow my grandfather's footsteps,

50:51

which he fought in World War

50:53

Two. And uh, I think that they

50:55

felt like I had a lack of discipline.

50:58

Uh and and and to

51:01

some degree they were probably right. But when

51:04

all of this stuff kind of started spiraling, UM,

51:07

I ended up connecting

51:09

with my parents again and they

51:11

saw how bad I was. I mean I was. I was

51:14

massively in debt. Um. I

51:16

had collectors calling me, you

51:19

know, no car, no house. Uh.

51:21

And they kind of gave me this

51:24

um ultimatum, which was like, we're

51:27

gonna will help you get out of this, but we

51:30

want you to join the military. And

51:34

at the time, I really felt like I had no options.

51:37

I felt like I was going to die. Uh

51:40

and I, UM,

51:43

I guess the shortest way to go about

51:46

is that I took them up on that. Um

51:49

and Yeah, so I enlisted in

51:51

the military and uh

51:54

uh the Army, I was initially going

51:56

to join the air

51:59

the Air Force, which my step

52:01

brother he's still in the Air Force,

52:03

he's in the Air National Guard. And

52:06

I was going to do that because you know, it's it's

52:09

a relatively light and relatively

52:12

um cushy. I

52:14

guess if we want to if we want to be blunt about

52:17

it. Um. And

52:20

I was meeting with this guy. My parents

52:22

knew this. I think he's like a lieutenant colonel who

52:24

did film for the army. And

52:26

I was meeting with him and uh,

52:29

just talking about movies and film theory

52:31

and all this stuff. That was really a

52:34

a enlightening conversation,

52:37

and it was it was really interesting talking to this

52:39

military guy about film.

52:42

But um, he said

52:44

to me something which was basically like,

52:47

if you get a chance to do this one job.

52:50

There's one job that if

52:52

you if you score high enough on your tests

52:54

and it's available and you think you

52:56

have it in you, I would do that. And

53:01

so when you join the military, you have to go

53:04

to this building and you take this series

53:06

of tests and it's it's called

53:08

an as FAB. It's

53:10

basically just like a placement test to show

53:13

your aptitude. Uh. And you know, like

53:16

if you score really really low. It's like your

53:18

infantry. Yeah exactly.

53:20

If you score really really high, it's kind

53:22

of like the world as your oyster, Right you get

53:25

you get the white color job in the army or

53:27

whatever. Right. Yeah, so I got.

53:29

I scored high, and it just

53:31

so happened that there was one slot open for this

53:33

job that was not cushy at all. But it was

53:36

that that guy's voice was in the back of my head

53:38

and in that one brief moment, I wanted

53:40

to be Rambo or like, you know, I wanted to be Ethan

53:43

Hunt, and I said, I said,

53:45

I'm gonna do that, uh,

53:47

and so I did it. Um.

53:49

Yeah, that's I

53:51

mean, it's such a The reason I bring

53:54

it up is because obviously, I mean, I've encountered

53:56

many people that have kind of come from, for

53:58

lack of better term, the

54:00

the independent punk hardcore community

54:02

whatever, and like, obviously most of the sentiments

54:05

towards the military are obviously very negative.

54:07

Um, but then some people end up, you know, being like, well,

54:11

you know that maybe the bureaucracy and

54:13

the structure of it is is bad

54:15

and war is bad, but the people

54:17

that make it up are obviously not bad. And

54:19

so you know, they enlist and they

54:21

do everything they can to make it obviously a

54:23

positive environment. Um. So was

54:26

you know, you don't have to obviously get an intimate detail

54:29

with it, but was your your general experience,

54:32

um, pretty uh traumatizing

54:35

or was it you know, did you feel like there

54:37

were some impact that you were able to make. I

54:39

guess within the system.

54:41

Oh wow, Uh, I

54:45

let me think about how I want to answer that. I know, And

54:48

yeah, I don't like I said, I'm not trying to hang you out

54:50

to dry or anything. No, no, no, so okay,

54:54

let me let me let me run for a minute on that. And

54:56

that's hey man, we got a long runway. This is fine, okay.

54:58

Um. I never

55:02

I would never say that. I.

55:04

I grew up with a

55:06

pro military attitude. Uh.

55:09

Throughout my high school years. I you,

55:11

you could find me at quite

55:13

a few uh rallies

55:16

uh for um,

55:18

you know, anti anti war rallies

55:20

when we when we in two thousand and five when we went

55:22

to Iraq. Uh.

55:26

I grew up kind of in that, not

55:28

not like super punk rock scene or whatever,

55:30

but I think musicians generally

55:33

speaking kind of lean a little bit left.

55:36

Um and uh,

55:40

I never would have thought that that would have been that

55:42

that that that was gonna be me. Like if you had

55:44

told me in high school that that's what I was

55:46

going to end up becoming, I would

55:49

have I would have scoffed.

55:51

But UM, I

55:53

would say that generally

55:58

broadly speaking, it

56:01

was a fairly negative experience for

56:03

me. I mean the second that I got to basic

56:05

training, it was like, oh

56:07

my god, what have I done? Uh?

56:10

And that kind of continued throughout,

56:13

like the first time that I stepped put in

56:15

Afghanistan or you know, any

56:17

any of that kind of stuff. UM. And

56:23

when we I

56:25

I haven't really I don't. I

56:28

haven't really talked about this with a lot of people when

56:30

we started the band. Uh, nobody

56:32

really knew about it. I mean, the band knew about it,

56:36

UM, but we never really talked about it with anybody

56:38

on the road. And even though

56:40

The Albatross, a good majority

56:42

of the subject matter is on

56:45

my end that I wrote was about coming

56:47

home from that. UM

56:49

and the fact that the band was,

56:51

the conception of the band

56:55

was was it

56:57

was conceived in my head while I was in Afghanistan

57:00

and under heavy dress. UM.

57:04

It was something that we never really talked about kind of for the reason

57:07

that you brought up one.

57:09

I was going through a ton of

57:12

things, and and internally when I got

57:14

when I when I got home from that, and

57:16

and I didn't want people to uh

57:20

judge me in the in the music

57:22

community. Uh, but

57:24

even more so, I just didn't want that to precede me in

57:27

the sense that when you hear you know, if if

57:29

you hear like, oh blah blah blah

57:32

was in the military, the

57:34

first thing that I think a lot of people that are

57:36

in that community are going to think is

57:40

there's a slew I guess of u uh

57:44

prejudice or whatever about

57:47

about people in the military. And I wanted my

57:50

own I wanted to be able to

57:52

be myself and not have people kind

57:55

of push at me with that and

57:57

and and going back to dealing with

57:59

it all all uh, especially

58:01

with the subject matter of the record, um

58:04

and now in this record as well.

58:06

I really I didn't

58:08

want to have to talk about

58:10

it because I was writing about those things while

58:12

they were happening, and to have

58:14

people, um analyze,

58:18

uh my own mental

58:21

well being while I'm still trying to cope

58:24

felt just terrifying. UM.

58:28

I like to look at the good and the bad

58:30

and everything so I can't say

58:32

that all of it was horrible.

58:36

UM. I learned a lot uh

58:39

and I and I learned a lot about myself and

58:41

my own UH. I think

58:43

I learned a lot about my own threshold, not on

58:46

a mental level, but on a physical level, because

58:48

I was pushed to a limit

58:50

that I never thought that I could or

58:53

would have to even see.

58:56

UM. And I learned a lot about

58:59

loyalty and also kind of UM.

59:02

Uh I learned a lot about judging

59:06

people, because a

59:08

lot of the people that you meet when

59:10

you're in the military are not the kinds of people

59:13

that I would ever associate

59:15

with. UH, whether

59:17

that be just their political beliefs

59:20

or uh the way

59:22

that they talk about U people

59:26

UM, or just the fact that made a lot of

59:28

people that do join up do

59:31

join because they just want to h get

59:33

some They just want to uh

59:37

be in combat. And

59:40

I learned a lot about people like that.

59:42

And I think when you're in a

59:44

combat situation with people like that, UM,

59:48

it doesn't really matter what you believe

59:51

UM, because when

59:55

bullets are flying or when mortars are dropping,

59:58

that person is the only and that you

1:00:00

know stands between you and death. UM.

1:00:04

And then also finding the humanity

1:00:07

and and and all people, um,

1:00:09

not just the people that I served with,

1:00:11

but the people in uh

1:00:15

the Middle East. I I felt

1:00:17

a I

1:00:20

felt a kinderdness with a lot of them,

1:00:22

uh, and started to kind of

1:00:24

realize that the only differences

1:00:27

between me and them were the differences that

1:00:29

we had both put up in our minds and

1:00:31

a language barrier of course. But um,

1:00:35

so, yeah, I definitely have tried

1:00:37

to find things

1:00:40

about that situation that are positive,

1:00:42

because if I don't, then it becomes

1:00:45

extremely depressing. And it's already

1:00:47

depressing for me. It's already a

1:00:49

very hard situation that

1:00:52

I've had to cope with for a long time

1:00:55

now. So yeah,

1:00:57

I don't know, no, No, I mean I appreciate

1:01:00

the candidates in which you've you know, ran through

1:01:02

that, because I understand there's a lot of, um,

1:01:04

not only conflicting but confusing emotions

1:01:06

that lie within that. But I mean, you know, from

1:01:09

my perspective and laying that out, like obviously, like

1:01:11

you said you were, you were at the bottom. There

1:01:13

was really no recourse or choices that you had

1:01:15

in the matter, and it was kind of like the only

1:01:18

plan of escape that was presented

1:01:20

was the fact that for you to do this, and

1:01:22

then I think you you know, the

1:01:26

the humanity aspect and obviously this sort

1:01:28

of level playing field that everybody is on

1:01:30

when they're in a uh, you know,

1:01:32

abnormal situation like war or

1:01:35

or a crisis or these all all

1:01:37

these things that you know, really put

1:01:39

human nature to its test. That's when you do

1:01:41

strip away all the artifice and you realize that

1:01:43

it's like, oh, yeah, well this

1:01:46

person I may have no common

1:01:48

bonds with whatsoever, but I

1:01:50

have the commonality that I am a

1:01:52

human being and I would like to you know, protect

1:01:54

them or you know, help them live or you

1:01:57

know whatever. The the goal is that that you know,

1:01:59

immediate function. I

1:02:01

think that's to me, that's the most

1:02:03

um, I guess, rewarding thing

1:02:06

that people can kind of learn when

1:02:09

it isn't just this this um, you know, narrative

1:02:11

of good versus evil and um because not

1:02:13

everything is obviously black and

1:02:15

white like that, you know, So I really

1:02:17

appreciate how you laid that out. Oh

1:02:20

yeah,

1:02:22

yeah, I don't know it. It's

1:02:25

a it's a weird experience to kind of try

1:02:27

to condense down into

1:02:30

such a small antidote of how

1:02:32

it affected me and how

1:02:36

the way that I've kind of dealt with it,

1:02:38

but I definitely think, like you know, you

1:02:40

in trying to find a positive element

1:02:43

to everything. Um,

1:02:45

I don't think that we would be having this conversation

1:02:47

had I not done that, because I

1:02:49

think that

1:02:52

that experience, if everything

1:02:55

in your life is somewhat of like a pendulum or reaction

1:02:57

to, uh,

1:02:59

some else in your life. I

1:03:02

feel like they're one of the reasons

1:03:04

why our band has

1:03:06

pushed as hard as we have, and

1:03:08

and it is because of

1:03:11

how determined I was to do something

1:03:13

that made me happy when I got home, uh

1:03:16

and to really uh make something

1:03:18

out of myself because I felt like I was given

1:03:21

a gift. And you

1:03:23

know, that's not to say that I was given a

1:03:25

gift by any sort of higher

1:03:27

being or that there was anybody looking out for

1:03:30

me. But I felt like, because I

1:03:32

was able to weather that

1:03:35

storm, that if I

1:03:37

were to just come back home and

1:03:39

uh work at nine to five, or

1:03:43

not do what made

1:03:45

me happy, then I would

1:03:47

be disrespecting to people

1:03:49

that were not given that opportunity. Um.

1:03:53

And that was really really impactful for me in

1:03:55

that regard. Um. Yeah,

1:03:57

I mean, because yeah, there's that's a very important

1:03:59

point because yeah. There the

1:04:02

notion that, um, a creative

1:04:05

uh form can take shape

1:04:08

out of something that is, you

1:04:10

know, inherently not creative

1:04:13

in and of itself, like you know, I mean, yeah, obviously

1:04:15

there's there's battle plans and strategic

1:04:17

maneuvers and all that sort of stuff. But you know, no one,

1:04:20

no one would um you know, apply the

1:04:22

word art immediately to to the military.

1:04:24

So it's just it's great how these these two desperate

1:04:27

things can influence one another in ways

1:04:29

that you probably you know, you never

1:04:32

envisioned. When do you were you know, taking

1:04:35

that step to enlist. Um, But that's

1:04:37

just and that really really

1:04:40

you've never read the Art of War. That's

1:04:44

true, But I mean that that is um.

1:04:48

I'm sorry, okay, UM,

1:04:50

but no, I I know what you yeah, I know what you mean.

1:04:53

I don't there's not like a direct

1:04:55

it's not directly applicable,

1:04:58

like my experience is not to directly applicable

1:05:01

to being in a band. But

1:05:03

my experience, UM,

1:05:07

I think that it it the things

1:05:09

that it taught me that I

1:05:11

guess you could say are positive. Um. And

1:05:14

just in terms of being driven and knowing uh

1:05:17

that if you h if

1:05:19

you want something or if you have something that you need to

1:05:21

achieve or whatever it may be that

1:05:23

that that you that

1:05:26

all it takes is determination

1:05:28

and and and not giving up.

1:05:30

I think that that is something

1:05:32

that definitely transitioned

1:05:34

over and then also just being

1:05:37

grateful to be alive. I

1:05:39

think that you'll find a lot of

1:05:41

people that go through experiences where

1:05:44

they where the end was

1:05:46

very very close to them, uh,

1:05:48

that it is very profound on them, and

1:05:50

a lot of them do end up coming out

1:05:53

from that, uh with a sense

1:05:55

of um kind

1:05:58

of not I don't want to say like reckless abandoned,

1:06:00

because I think that that's not really the right way

1:06:02

to say, but a sense that of clarity

1:06:04

where it's it's it's I have

1:06:07

nothing to lose because I already

1:06:09

uh, I already came that close to

1:06:11

death and that's that that's like the ultimate thing

1:06:13

to lose is your life. So why

1:06:16

would I not go as

1:06:18

hard as I could to uh

1:06:21

make my life better or to achieve

1:06:24

happiness or how you know, whatever

1:06:26

it is that you you as an individual

1:06:28

seek. No, I think

1:06:30

that that's a that's a really good, um, you know, important

1:06:33

point to pull out of all that. UM.

1:06:36

The last thing I want to hit on before I let you go was

1:06:38

the notion that for

1:06:40

all intent purposes, Um, a

1:06:42

lot of the business kind of you know, flows through

1:06:45

you because usually there's like one or two dudes

1:06:47

in the band, Um that kind of you know,

1:06:49

strike up that torch, Um would

1:06:51

you would you kind of classify yourself as that.

1:06:54

Obviously it's a democracy and everyone kind

1:06:56

of votes on that, I imagine, But um, are

1:06:58

you the main business eye of the band

1:07:00

as it were? Yeah, I mean definitely

1:07:03

for the whole beginning of the band. Uh,

1:07:07

just recently, I

1:07:09

guess I've been uh kind of taking

1:07:11

a step back from that and and

1:07:13

and letting our manager and a lot of stuff.

1:07:15

And then also you know, on our last tour, Connor,

1:07:17

our singer, uh he

1:07:20

kind of tour managed us. But

1:07:22

for the long for the longest time, that was kind of

1:07:25

my thing, and it was extremely

1:07:27

taxing. Sure. Um.

1:07:30

And so now that you guys are kind of at

1:07:32

this point where um, I always find interesting

1:07:35

within a band's life, where there's

1:07:37

you know, there's a lot of opportunities, and you guys are getting

1:07:39

you know, interesting tours presented to you, and it seems

1:07:42

like there is um, you know, albeit

1:07:45

small in the grand scheme, of things like you know, a

1:07:47

spotlight that's being shown on you guys, and you're

1:07:49

having to react to things that you never thought you'd

1:07:51

have to react to. Um. You know, how

1:07:53

is that all kind of And I don't expect this

1:07:55

to be a very clear and concise answer,

1:07:58

but you know, how is that all whirling in your

1:08:00

head in regards to like, wow,

1:08:03

like I never thought like you were mentioning earlier, when

1:08:05

people are comparing you to the National and all these other things

1:08:07

that are just so um, you know, far removed from

1:08:10

what you would ever describe yourself, your your

1:08:12

band as UM. How is it?

1:08:14

How is it kind of reconciling the sort

1:08:16

of business aspects of the band,

1:08:18

of of having to make all these decisions that

1:08:20

you never thought you'd have to make, um versus

1:08:23

just trying to basically function as a

1:08:25

band, because that's usually when the rubber hits the

1:08:27

road, And it's kind of hard to parse the two.

1:08:31

Who I know,

1:08:32

I know, I know it's a heavy

1:08:34

question, but I just think that

1:08:36

there's something important within whatever

1:08:39

whatever one runaway you're about to lay down. Sure

1:08:43

I think that we UM,

1:08:47

I don't. That's a hard one. I don't.

1:08:49

I don't think that we ever expected to be

1:08:52

in the position that we're in where

1:08:54

um, people are

1:08:57

listening to our band. I think that's kind of the most

1:08:59

mind lowing thing, just because all of us

1:09:01

have played in bands for so long, uh

1:09:04

and and made records that nobody ever

1:09:06

really heard, and we were fine with that

1:09:09

because just the love of playing music

1:09:11

for your friends in St. Louis. Um.

1:09:15

I think it's it's

1:09:18

hard to kind of look at

1:09:20

it in perspective because everything

1:09:22

is relative, so like you were kind of saying, like there

1:09:25

people know who are band, like

1:09:28

like who we are. But really,

1:09:30

when it comes down to it, I think

1:09:32

that there's like kind of the lot the lie of rock

1:09:34

and roll, which is that if

1:09:36

a bunch of people know who your band is, then you're

1:09:39

you're doing really well. And I

1:09:41

don't really think that we live in that, uh,

1:09:45

that like a paradigm or whatever that that doesn't

1:09:48

really exist as much anymore. So

1:09:51

I think that we're still extremely hungry

1:09:53

and we're still like kind of

1:09:56

looking at it as we always have that

1:09:58

like we don't let up on anything.

1:10:01

Um, you know, we

1:10:03

we make our own music videos,

1:10:06

uh. And I don't want to take away credit from the people

1:10:08

that we work with, but you know, all of the videos

1:10:10

that we made, like I've written, I've edited

1:10:13

the newest one I co directed, wrote, and I'm

1:10:15

editing it right now. Uh.

1:10:18

When it comes to like things like shirt designs, like

1:10:20

we work with every single artist like

1:10:22

closely. It's not just like go off and make a

1:10:24

design for us. Like everything that we do

1:10:27

we have a hand in because

1:10:29

we there's quality control in that in

1:10:31

that way, and and for us,

1:10:34

it's like we want to be responsible

1:10:36

for every aspect of our band, not that

1:10:38

like that doesn't mean that we don't outsource

1:10:41

things, but it means that if

1:10:43

I if we're to give away complete control

1:10:45

of some aspect of our band is somebody and they fail

1:10:48

us, well we can't even really

1:10:50

be like who do you hold

1:10:52

accountable for that? Whereas if it's

1:10:55

on us, then we know, like we

1:10:57

know that, uh, like kind of our own

1:10:59

personal ethos ethos the idea

1:11:02

that like if you're going to do anything

1:11:04

like make it, like, don't

1:11:06

put something that you're not happy with

1:11:09

or don't half asked something, because we're not going to be

1:11:11

a band forever, so why would you In

1:11:13

the short amount of time that we have People's

1:11:15

attention or the short amount of time that we uh

1:11:18

are a collective, why would

1:11:21

you put out something that's less

1:11:23

um, So it's really important

1:11:26

for us. And I think that like a lot of bands,

1:11:28

as they get bigger, they start kind of like letting

1:11:31

up with that. And and maybe because they

1:11:33

want to spend more time at home or whatever, or they

1:11:36

or they're just tired of the grind, they

1:11:40

give away a lot of what makes them a

1:11:43

band. For us, you know, it's just um,

1:11:46

something that's really important, at least to me, and

1:11:48

I think to most of the people in the band that like,

1:11:50

we have a hand in literally everything we do because

1:11:54

we are going to determine

1:11:58

whether or not like we're putting out the

1:12:00

quality uh. And so

1:12:02

you know, I guess an answer to your

1:12:05

question, um, we're

1:12:08

still grinding, like grinding

1:12:11

and like the same exact way that we

1:12:13

were grinding when we first started. The only difference

1:12:15

is that like now I don't have to sit

1:12:17

down on my computer for three months trying

1:12:20

to book a tour because somebody does

1:12:22

that. But we still have an extreme like you

1:12:24

know, and an extremely close watch

1:12:27

on that aspect

1:12:29

of our band. Or we have a manager. But

1:12:31

I talked to him every single day and he doesn't

1:12:34

make any decisions without us.

1:12:36

So, you know, I think

1:12:38

it's just all about being able

1:12:40

to manage our own time so we

1:12:43

don't have mental breakdowns,

1:12:45

which we've come really close to having

1:12:48

in the past. Um.

1:12:50

But also um

1:12:53

being aware of everything that has to do with

1:12:55

your band, because anybody

1:12:58

that listens to our band, they

1:13:00

don't they're not seeing the inner

1:13:02

workings of how everything came

1:13:04

to be. They just see the band,

1:13:07

and um, we

1:13:09

have. That's the one thing that we have control over

1:13:12

is is our you

1:13:14

know, it's kind of like the crucible. It's like all we

1:13:16

have is our name. Like we just have

1:13:19

what we are. We just have what we put out. And

1:13:21

it's really important for us to not let

1:13:23

up and not get complacent

1:13:26

or comfortable because there

1:13:28

are too many bands in the world,

1:13:31

like they're there's there's so

1:13:33

many bands, and we've

1:13:36

been uh fortunate

1:13:38

enough to uh be

1:13:41

in a place where if we put

1:13:43

something out, people will hear it. So

1:13:46

it's our job to recognize

1:13:48

that gift and not let people

1:13:50

down, at least at least try not to

1:13:52

let people down. Sure, sure, no, I

1:13:54

think that's a very you know, I

1:13:56

really like your answers. I'm not gonna lie, Josh, I really

1:13:59

said, well, yeah, and not

1:14:01

like you were attempting to pass a test or anything like that.

1:14:03

But it's, um, I've just been drinking. I drank

1:14:05

a red eye some oh dude that there's

1:14:08

nothing better interview prep than that. But no, I

1:14:12

but yeah, I really appreciate these these

1:14:14

you know, thoughtful, insightful responses because yeah,

1:14:16

it's ah and that's why I knew you'd be perfect for

1:14:19

this conversation. So way to go, man. I

1:14:21

think, yeah, I feel all right about it. I'm

1:14:23

sure that I'm I won't listen back

1:14:25

to it because I'll be like, well, I don't like my own

1:14:27

voice. And two I'll

1:14:29

definitely think that I was rambling. No,

1:14:31

no, well, I mean but I think that's that's

1:14:34

the way that people work things out sometimes

1:14:37

in their own head where it's just like you said,

1:14:39

I mean, I really do think a you know, a

1:14:41

very appropriate um metaphor

1:14:43

is like a runway because sometimes, I mean, sometimes

1:14:46

people can land and you know, our media

1:14:48

trained and can answer a question within fifteen

1:14:50

seconds, but usually those responses

1:14:52

don't elicit any real um insight

1:14:54

or conversation. It's just like here you go.

1:14:57

There's no information and that's kind of it, and

1:14:59

it's like, well, you know, I don't know. Yeah,

1:15:01

it's just like all about if you can stick the landing. So

1:15:03

it's like I'm kind of feel like I'm in a tornado of

1:15:06

explanation, and like as long

1:15:08

as I shoot out and like shoot out of the tornado

1:15:10

and I land on my feet, it's like, Okay, we got through

1:15:12

that one, onto the next one. How

1:15:15

are we doing? No, totally, totally,

1:15:17

well, dude, I really appreciate you hanging out on the phone

1:15:19

with me and this is this has been enjoyable for me,

1:15:22

especially because yeah, sometimes you

1:15:24

never know how conversations with strangers are going to go.

1:15:26

So you you rule. Josh, Thanks

1:15:28

man, Thank you, Thank you man. Have a

1:15:30

good rest of your day. Hi,

1:15:34

hello, greetings. You're

1:15:36

done with the episode? Well no, hold on,

1:15:39

maybe like two more minutes, okay, But thank you very

1:15:41

much to Josh for going really

1:15:43

in depth in his life, and I can tell he hasn't

1:15:45

really had the opportunity to do that, So thank

1:15:49

you, Josh. And also special shout out to

1:15:52

his manager or a should I say, the manager

1:15:54

of his band, Joe Morrow. Who's a previous

1:15:56

guest on the show and a good friend. So thanks

1:15:58

Joe for hooking it up, because you know, a lot of

1:16:00

people bug you for stuff and you don't need to do everything

1:16:03

for everybody, but you did it for me and I really

1:16:05

appreciate that. So visit

1:16:07

the show's website one hundred words podcast dot

1:16:09

com. Email the show one hundred words podcast

1:16:12

at gmail dot com, and uh

1:16:14

yeah, visit our sponsors and visit some of the other shows

1:16:16

on the jabber Jam Media Network. You've got nothing to

1:16:18

lose, right because these are all good

1:16:20

shows, I promise, and um

1:16:23

yeah. The producer this week was me, ha ha, because

1:16:25

you know, I just didn't get my stuff together

1:16:28

and sent over to my friend who's been

1:16:30

helping me with shows recently. So complain

1:16:33

to me if you think that this show sounds terrible.

1:16:36

But anyways, the guest next week is

1:16:39

Ian Fouls. He is the guitarist

1:16:41

for bands like oh you know, the Aqua

1:16:43

Bats, and he also plays guitar

1:16:45

in Gerard Ways band called

1:16:47

Gerard Way and the Hormones. He's done

1:16:50

a ton of amazing stuff as

1:16:52

a musician and as a person in general,

1:16:54

and I was really excited about this conversation

1:16:57

and I can't wait to share it with you next week. So

1:17:00

there you go, and please until

1:17:02

next week, be safe. Everybody you've

1:17:04

been listening to the jabber Jaw podcast network,

1:17:07

jabber Jaw Media dot com sh