0:00

Hi there. I'm Zach Raff and I'm Donald Phason.

0:02

We're real life best friends, but

0:04

we met playing fake life best friends

0:07

Turk and j D on the sitcom Scrubs.

0:09

Twenty years later, we've decided to rewatch

0:11

the series one episode at a time and

0:13

put our memories into a podcast

0:16

you can listen to at home. We're gonna get all our

0:18

special guest friends like Sarah Chalk,

0:20

John c McGinley, Neil Flynn, Judy

0:22

Reyes, show creator Bill Lawrence,

0:25

editors, writers, and even prop

0:27

masters would tell us about what inspired

0:29

the series and how we became a family.

0:32

You can listen to the podcast Fake Doctors,

0:34

Real Friends with Zack and Donald on the

0:36

I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

0:38

and wherever you get your podcasts. This

0:44

is the Jabber Jaw podcast Network. Learn

0:48

the music that matters to you the most with the Musician

0:50

app. They have so many

0:52

ways that you can learn guitar, piano, ukulele,

0:55

or bass, and it's even easier to learn your

0:57

favorite tunes on those instruments. Please

1:00

become the musician you've always wanted to be.

1:02

Visit musician dot com slash words

1:04

to try musician with a discount

1:07

using the code words w O r

1:09

DS. Obviously, Musician is a

1:12

great app. Step by step process.

1:14

You really get into the nitty gritty of learning

1:16

these instruments, and it is so so easy.

1:19

My seven year old is learning piano on this. Okay,

1:21

so download Musician today

1:24

and get off. Okay, use the code

1:26

words. Listen, this is serious business. If

1:28

you've ever stopped at a railroad crossing

1:30

and the signals are flashing, you don't see the train or looks

1:32

like it's moving slow, You're like, yeah, I could probably

1:34

squeeze in there before the train comes. Think

1:37

about this alone. Two

1:39

hundred and seventy people were killed at railroad

1:41

crossings. Two and seventy.

1:43

That's crazy. So stop

1:45

and wait because trains can't.

1:48

I live by train tracks for many years of

1:50

my life, and I always kind of thought that, but you

1:52

need to be safe. Stop

1:55

trains cannot. Now here's

1:57

the show. Hello

2:02

everybody, how are you? I am

2:04

Ray Harkins. You are hanging out on this

2:06

very podcast feed called one hundred Words

2:09

or Less, where we talk to people who are involved

2:11

in independent music, independent culture.

2:14

You know that's mostly specifically

2:16

focused on on music, but you know, there are

2:18

many different ways that you can take independent culture

2:21

that whole d I Y mentality. Like, for

2:23

example, this morning, I was listening to

2:25

a new episode of the Mark

2:27

Marin podcast w TF, which if

2:29

you are not a listener of that, you need

2:31

to rectify that immediately. Not like I'm

2:34

I'm recommending one of the most popular podcasts of all

2:36

time. So if you haven't, if you

2:39

for some reason listen to this show and you've

2:41

never listened to Mark Marin show, you will notice

2:43

a lot of similarities in there. And I've made no bones

2:45

about the fact that I, you know, basically

2:47

ripped his idea off and are doing

2:49

this for more independent music

2:52

scene. But anyways, the example I'm trying to make

2:54

Christina Hendrix, who is a professional actress

2:57

who has been in Madman and a bunch of other crazy

2:59

stuff. Um, you know, she's very successful,

3:02

and they start talking about music

3:05

and she talks about Sisters of Mercy

3:07

and Skinny Puppy and then she talks about Fugazi

3:10

and I'm just like, oh my gosh, Like that's insane

3:13

that that was a formative

3:15

thing in her life. So but at the same time, it's

3:17

like this, these music scenes have existed

3:20

for thirty plus forty plus years

3:22

now, and um it's uh,

3:24

it's it's just incredible. So but anyways, that's

3:26

I I digress. The point being

3:29

this is very influential stuff, and

3:31

I have a guest who is very influential

3:33

on me is also a very very good human

3:35

being. His name is Tim Singer. He's

3:38

a vocalist from Dead Guy Kissing Goodbye.

3:41

He also did a project called A Family Man that

3:43

I don't I think a demo was posted online

3:46

if I'm not mistaken, But Tim

3:48

Singer frankly one of my favorite

3:50

vocalists of all time. I love everything

3:53

he has done. And he also played in No Escape, Like how can

3:55

I forget that? I have a ridiculously

3:57

old No Escape shirt

4:00

myself. But um, yeah, more

4:02

about Tim in a minute. I'm just I can't even

4:04

believe that I'm saying that he's on this podcast. But

4:07

there's there's exciting stuff afoot

4:10

the band Curl Up and Die, Who

4:13

is a It was a very and still

4:15

is a very very important part in my music

4:17

upbringing because my band, my band

4:19

Taken, we did a ton of stuff with them as

4:21

far as touring, and we kind of started

4:24

it at the same time, and you know, we went off in

4:26

different paths as far as like signing

4:28

record labels and tours and all this other stuff, but

4:31

we did so much together, and um,

4:33

those guys became really really close friends.

4:35

I toured with them just independently, like as

4:37

a merch guy, tour manager, hangar

4:40

outer guy. But it was really

4:42

really fun to hear that they are doing

4:44

a reunion show, a Chain Reaction on June

4:47

twenty two, and Taken

4:49

is playing the show along with some other great

4:51

bands like Seizures and Regional

4:53

Justice Center, who are both previous guests

4:56

of the of this very podcast.

4:58

But that show is happening, and if you are in

5:00

the southern California area, or even if you're not,

5:03

come hang out. Tickets are I

5:05

mean, this sounds like so stupid, tickets

5:07

are going fast, like whatever whatever that means, but

5:09

it's true. Tickets are selling really well. If you

5:11

want to go, you should buy your tickets now, and

5:13

don't be bummed when you're like, oh, man, I

5:15

I've waited too long, because the show

5:17

is going to be really really fun and I

5:20

didn't think this was what was going to happen, but

5:22

it did and that's awesome. And I also

5:24

want to tell you about rockabilly dot Com. Use

5:26

the code PC jabber John that gets you ten percent

5:28

off your order whatever

5:31

you're ordering on there, which is band merch.

5:33

They know exactly what they're doing with band merch. They

5:36

ship it to you fast. They have high

5:38

quality designs that are all authorized

5:41

and endorsed by the bands. They get

5:43

paid. You get cool merch.

5:45

This awesome independent company stays

5:47

in business for another hundred and seventy five

5:49

years. They've already been around for thirty plus years. They're

5:52

just a great business. So support

5:54

the supportive and support them. PC

5:57

jabber Jaw for ten percent off of

5:59

your order. Thank you very much to

6:01

the beautiful folks at Rockabilia. What

6:04

else do I have to tell you about Tim Singer? There isn't

6:06

much beyond the fact that he's an unbelievable

6:08

vocalist. He basically really

6:11

really channels his anger

6:13

and rage in a in like the most palpable

6:15

way possible. As far as its screaming,

6:18

it just sounds so tortured, and

6:20

I yeah, that's that's what places him

6:23

on the top the amount rushmore of

6:25

my favorite vocalists, you know, it's like

6:27

him, Chris Colahan, maybe Carl from Earth

6:29

Crisis especially when you're talking about like, you

6:31

know, more independent, uh minded

6:34

music stuff, like you know, I'm not going to compare

6:36

him to Ian Curtis because that's a whole different

6:38

ballgame. But as far as aggressive

6:40

music is concerned, okay, how about we say that. But

6:43

um, yeah, Tim Singer. I I spoke

6:45

to him. Gosh, I interviewed him. I

6:48

want to say, like, I don't know, fifteen

6:50

years ago for a great zine

6:53

that was happening at the time called Status. My friend

6:55

Seth Brown did that. If any of you remember

6:57

Status fanzine just man

7:00

pour one out, such a good zne But

7:02

I interviewed him, and I actually went back

7:04

in my archives and found the actual hard

7:06

copy of it to look at the interview questions

7:08

to see if I like did a terrible job because I spoke

7:10

to him for over an hour and we only ended up

7:13

using you know, maybe ten fifteen of those

7:15

questions. But I realized, I'm like, oh, man,

7:17

I had no idea what he's doing back then. Sorry,

7:19

sorry anybody who I interviewed when I was like twenty one years

7:22

old. But in any event, Tim

7:24

was very gracious, came on, hung

7:26

out hard, and this episode is spectacular,

7:28

So here that is, and I will

7:31

talk to you after the episode is over.

7:54

The idea that you know, I mean,

7:56

I've told you this before, and you know I've I've

7:58

blown spoke up your butt before that you know,

8:00

you're definitely, you know, one of my favorite vocalists

8:02

of all time. And I know this question has

8:04

been posed to you but in

8:07

some fashion. But the you

8:09

know, people are clearly listening to you

8:11

know, Dead Guy Kissed Goodbye No Escape and are

8:13

just like, dude sounds pissed, like

8:16

he every band he's saying it sounds pissed,

8:18

and like, you know, I know this is

8:20

a very sort of elementary question, but just like,

8:23

did you always kind of like just tap into like

8:25

I am going to yell at the top of my lungs

8:27

like I'm always gonna you know, blow myself

8:30

out or whatever, or was that something you kind

8:32

of like, you know, I guess I learned how to do learn

8:34

how to tap into something or was that just always kind of

8:36

the mode you were in? Um? Right,

8:39

I think it's it's

8:41

funny. I think it's always been there. It's like, uh,

8:44

I'm a melo persons, if you know me.

8:46

Um,

8:49

And people are sometimes surprised when

8:51

they hear the music. But I remember running

8:53

into some friends of mine that I grew up with and telling

8:56

him, like the type the music I was doing, I think

8:58

I might have played some And I tell

9:00

yeah, that makes sense, Like they sort of

9:02

got it. Um

9:05

like for me, punk rock with that stuff you listened

9:07

to alone in your room when I

9:10

don't know, you felt like you're the only person who felt

9:13

the way you feel and

9:16

I don't nobody gets to you or I

9:19

don't want to get too melodramatic about it, but

9:21

like, but that's the ship

9:23

I grew up like, I don't know,

9:26

loving right like and it's you

9:28

know, to this day, I still love. Really,

9:31

I don't really listen to a lot of like quote

9:33

unquote heavy music. It's more heavy

9:36

in terms of like mood, like I just don't.

9:38

I just like that. I like heavy movies. I like

9:40

heavy music. It could be Johnny

9:43

Cash, it could be p. J. Harvey, it could be Black

9:45

Flag, it could be laughing hyenas.

9:47

Whatever it is. It's it's it's

9:50

like that that kind of moved. Um. It's not a

9:52

macho thing. I'm not a tough guy, so

9:55

it's uh, yeah,

9:58

I don't know, it's something that's easy for me to

10:00

tap into. And I get into a room with some

10:03

musicians and we and we put

10:05

on something, you know, we create some

10:07

some loud music, and a lot of it

10:09

was reaction to like

10:13

you know, I was like a New York hardcore kid and it

10:15

became a very clicky scene. You

10:18

know. It was almost like there's like a popular crowd

10:21

and and it's

10:23

like none of that makes sense to me, and every all of a sudden, everybody's

10:25

getting sort of stylish and everybody's it's

10:28

like style is a really big thing, and I

10:31

don't know, like like th instant

10:33

fame was a big thing, and then rocking

10:35

out was a big thing. I just just like I want to go back

10:37

to like reaching

10:39

those kids who feel like

10:43

like you, no one, no one feels the way

10:45

they feel like given them like a

10:47

soundtrack for um

10:51

that feeling right where you're

10:53

alone, your your room and your blastoms

10:56

music and you find some solids because you're not You're

10:58

not the only person that's crazy. So

11:00

that's sort of where it comes from. Yeah, No, that's

11:03

I. I appreciate the articulation because I think

11:05

it's uh, you know, most people, especially

11:07

when you're talking about you know, punk or hardcore.

11:10

I think it's you know, people are just like, oh yeah, like

11:12

you're yelling, but like, you know, people like you and

11:14

I and obviously all of our peers who have listened to this

11:16

style of music over time, Like there's so much nuance

11:19

with you know, screaming, Like there's yelling and

11:21

like and so to like, you know, to an

11:23

untrained ear, people would just be like, oh yeah, everyone's angry,

11:25

and it's just like, well, yeah, everyone is expressing

11:28

an emotion that is akin to it, but like

11:30

just the actual execution of it, it differs

11:33

so greatly, you know, just like singing is

11:36

yeah, yeah, yeah. And I hate I hate

11:38

getting lumps in with the guys that I

11:41

like, I call them blurry vocals where

11:43

it's like, you know, it's

11:45

like like that sort of cookie monster

11:47

thing, like you know, and

11:50

you know, I have a lot of friends who don't listen to this music

11:53

at all, and I just go, yeah, you hate it. You'll

11:55

think I'm screening my head off, and you

11:57

know, you'll think I'm in singing and

12:00

you don't hate it, and your kids will hate it

12:02

and don't think I'm weird, and that's fine.

12:04

Like I didn't do this to be the

12:06

pearl jam right. Um.

12:09

Yeah, but I hated also getting lumped in with

12:11

like a lot of this sort of macho, generic

12:13

satanic whatever. Um. I

12:16

just sort because for me, my heroes

12:18

were like like Henry Rollins. To me, that was

12:20

just like he's almost like just singing the blues

12:23

but a lot prettier, right, But

12:25

he pronounced every word. There's

12:29

there's actual expression of thought.

12:31

You know, there's there's even vulnerability

12:33

there, you know, I mean and

12:36

and you know, and like he didn't throw

12:38

in funk every other word

12:40

just to make something rhyme.

12:43

So like you know, I was riffing

12:45

off of the Fugazis and the Shelax

12:48

and the Rolins bands and lyrically

12:51

that's where you know, those are sort of my

12:53

heroes vocally alyrically and you

12:55

know, Jesus Lizard or you know, the list

12:58

goes on and it's not you

13:00

know, Pantera, Mega death

13:03

Swayer whatever. You know, even though

13:05

I think that's a lot of what like my bandmates were

13:07

into, and I think that's

13:09

sort of what worked was it's

13:12

a combination of we're all drawing

13:14

from different influences, especially Dead Guy. You

13:16

know, everything from like contemporary sort

13:18

of noise core stuff that wasn't even that popular,

13:21

like The Cows or Today is the Day like, or

13:23

Dads and Killman. Like we were sort

13:25

of pulling from all these places, and I just point

13:28

from my you know, eighties

13:30

punk rock heroes sort

13:32

of world of you know, suicide. My wife

13:34

actually, like after I was doing this for

13:37

years my life was like, you know, you remind me

13:39

the guy from Suicidal Tendencies, And I was like, oh

13:41

my god, it's probably so true,

13:43

right, like institutionalized. Like so

13:45

many of my songs I think are sort of like that, where

13:47

I go on these rants, um

13:49

you know, but I'm not trying to be

13:52

anybody either. It's just like these are the things that influenced

13:54

me. This is like when I got into music, I was like,

13:57

I'm doing this to sort of do my because

14:00

I've always wanted to do it and become and I'm

14:02

doing it for like the younger me, right, Like what

14:04

what what it did for

14:06

me? What when I was like I

14:09

don't know, feeling lost or whatever, and

14:11

I love being that person or

14:13

creating that music for someone else. Growing

14:16

up that way, Yeah, yeah, totally. It like

14:18

it just seeps into you and like whether or not

14:20

you're you're attempting to you

14:22

know, call back to that influence,

14:25

It's like it just kind of, you know, it just comes out

14:27

that way, like this mixture of all the stuff

14:29

that you have, you know, got into before or

14:31

whatever. But um, you know, kind of

14:33

putting the focus specifically on you. Um,

14:36

you know again like trying to you

14:38

know, trying to find sort of simple

14:40

biographical information about you. I was I

14:42

was struggling. I know, I know that you were kind

14:44

of you know, did you like you were born

14:47

and raised in the New Jersey, New York area? Where

14:49

did you kind of come up? Um?

14:52

I was actually born in Holland, but I

14:54

was waiting New Jersey from the time I was one, Um,

14:59

all the way through college

15:01

really, like I hopped around and I

15:03

went to a ton of colleges basically majoring

15:06

in going the shows. So

15:08

probably like my second secondary

15:10

concern now, Like and

15:12

it's funny because like I went

15:14

to Westchester, was one of the college in

15:16

Pennsylvania. Took a soil screening

15:19

class because I wanted to make girl just gets

15:21

T shirts right, and so like

15:23

that that was my priority with everything because like how

15:26

can I take a class, that's gonna help

15:28

me, you know, lay out a record or do

15:30

a T shirt or whatever it was. Um

15:33

So, yeah, I grew up in Jersey. My older brother,

15:36

he's four years older. His name is Tom um

15:40

and my stepbrother Dennis, who I did boy

15:42

Point with. I did point with Dennis Chang

15:44

and Tom Rocket Fell and I think a lot

15:46

of people don't realize Dennis changing with my stepbrother,

15:49

which he's really just my brother. But yeah,

15:53

I grew up and I probably got into punk

15:55

rock in like three

15:59

probably Ennity's my brother

16:01

was playing all the Ship in his room. You know, gonna really

16:03

started with sex pistols in the clash and then

16:07

because I remember Deed Kenny's blowing my mind

16:10

that there's a seven inch called two Drunk the Fuck

16:13

and just blew my

16:15

mind. I don't know, It's just like the surf punk and

16:17

Jillibi Offer and all his crazy lyrics.

16:19

And then you buy Letting

16:21

Meet Jelly Beans, and you discover Bad Brains

16:23

and Black Flag, and you start going to New York

16:26

and you discovered Luca Bob's and its records.

16:29

I remember running to gather Van Black when

16:31

I was probably sixteen.

16:34

Um ran some of the record store.

16:37

He was just a bouncer at the time. Like you

16:39

know, it felt like there's about five punk

16:42

rockets you know, in the world back then,

16:45

and he's like, you gotta buy anything by

16:47

Excreen, like anything by SSD,

16:51

you know. And so New

16:53

York is a really cool place back then. So I really

16:55

felt like New York is my scene. I

16:58

grew up in the Jersey suburbs. Really

17:01

it was like me and my stepbrother and a couple of other

17:03

misfits would go into the city as much

17:05

as you possibly could, and we go to

17:07

those big shows at the ritz Um,

17:09

like seeing bands like the Chrome Eggs and b

17:12

o A and Circle Jerks and and

17:14

then uh, there's April of nineties

17:16

six when I saw eighty

17:18

six sorry, when I saw Agnostic front

17:20

of CBGB's And that's why I feel like I

17:22

discovered like real hardcore, like

17:25

the smaller club you get wiped

17:27

out, you know, the bands that aren't on the

17:29

stage that are playing the show, or like in

17:32

the pick when they're not playing the show, and like the

17:35

people like Harley Flanning and stuff like that, and

17:38

like it was it was a crazy

17:40

violent pit. But you know you've almost

17:42

like going almost like a dare and

17:44

try to survive and if you landed on the

17:47

floor, some gonna kick you right up. Like it was. It was

17:49

pretty cool. And you know you sort

17:51

of you sort of check out your battle

17:53

wounds after the show and you be trenched in sweat

17:55

and there's nothing quite like it.

17:58

That's no, that's really cool. It's cool too that you had

18:00

that you know, kind of built in communal

18:03

vibe from not only you know, once you try to go to

18:05

the city, but that the fact that you know, you and your your

18:07

your brothers were all piled around getting into the

18:09

same stuff. That's uh, you know, exciting especially

18:12

you know, so were you you're the youngest of

18:14

the crew. Yeah,

18:17

me and my stepbrother like two months apart, but yeah

18:19

I'm the youngest of the crew. And yeah,

18:23

like you can go to New York and it was this funny you see somebody

18:25

else wearing like a punk t shirt and you sort of gave

18:27

the head nod right like prompt

18:29

and square Parks and stuff like that. Is like,

18:32

yeah, it was like a much smaller try back

18:34

then, you know, and then it was like then

18:36

I saw then some records opened

18:39

like that was like the phenomenal indie

18:41

record store that became like a hangout for all the

18:43

bands. I remember seeing you suld Today

18:45

open for Reagan Youth at the dance

18:47

Interia, um, and

18:50

like it was like these freaking tough

18:52

looking shave's head dudes playing

18:55

piste off straight edge of music, and

18:57

it was it was it was my bloying

18:59

because nobody knew who they were. Really. It was

19:01

like when they were first starting out and I was like,

19:03

you guys are fucking cool, and I was nowhere New York

19:05

being straight edge. I just was like, fucking

19:07

straight edge bands have something going on, because

19:10

that band is awesome, right, And so I

19:13

brought the champ close, my ice seven inch. I'd see

19:15

you for Today every chance I got. And it's like

19:17

it went from seeing in the CBS with a half full

19:20

you know club, so like by the end it

19:22

was like ridiculous, how packed

19:25

you know. Yeah, that's that's that's

19:28

my punk intro. No

19:30

no, no, yeah,

19:33

it's all And it's all exciting too, because like you're you

19:35

know, I love going through people's you

19:37

know, journeys as they got into you know, aggressive

19:40

independent music, whatever you wanna call it, because

19:42

it's so um, you know this

19:44

sounds kind of pollyannish, but it's like

19:46

it's so it's it's

19:49

devoid of context, like you're just getting into this stuff

19:51

because you're just like, wow, this is cool, this is aggressive,

19:54

and like you know, you're not really paying attention to you

19:56

know, the scene and like, I mean

19:58

you noticed that, but you're not, like you're just

20:01

consuming this stuff and it's like it's all exciting

20:03

and then yeah, I I just like that that

20:06

and there's um, there's a lack of

20:09

like there's not there'sn't just like hyper her

20:11

self awareness that happens today. You

20:13

know, like it was just happening,

20:16

and we weren't like thinking, We weren't

20:18

stopping to think like how cool is it that people

20:20

are putting on their independent shows

20:23

and how cool is it that people put out their own records.

20:25

It was just what was happening, right, You

20:28

just discover like to be alternative tentacles

20:30

just the record and discord or just record label. That wasn't

20:32

stopping to think, like how fucking cool

20:35

is it that Ian McKay started a record label.

20:37

Like it was just it was

20:39

what it was, and you sort of stepped back late and you

20:41

kind of go, man, that was special, right,

20:44

Like I was there for the birth of Revelation Records,

20:46

right and Georgie Cooper and Ivan friends since

20:49

day one. Um, you

20:51

know, just like how and

20:53

like I remember the Grill Biscuits demo when I was

20:55

a freshman in college that came out, and like I

20:58

would drive always from South Jersey to go see

21:00

them up play playing cvgvs when

21:02

they were like, you know, an opening act, uh,

21:05

with just demo songs, you

21:08

know, but they were just something a little bit different, you

21:10

know. And you

21:12

know, I'd write to Maximum

21:14

Rock and Roll and hope my letter got printed out. I

21:16

right to band and they right me back, and I'd get demos

21:19

in the nail. And there's this whole independent

21:21

world that no, I

21:24

think it was great about it. It didn't seek any attention

21:26

from this mainstream world that lived above it, right,

21:29

had nothing to do with MTV or any of that ship. Um,

21:32

And today it's today it's just much more complicated,

21:35

it would be it would be harder to sort

21:37

of replicate this, you know. Yeah,

21:40

I feel really fortunate to have been

21:42

around. And then I feel fortunate that, you

21:45

know, my father gave me a camera

21:47

last fourteen year old actually gave all three of me

21:50

and my two brothers. We all got cameras, like for Christmas

21:52

when when I was fourteen, and

21:55

uh, like that was just sort of luck

21:57

because then we started taking pictures of shows

21:59

as and and I have

22:01

pictures of all this stuff, which is also sort of amazing.

22:05

Oh yeah, no, absolutely, it's super cool. What

22:07

did your what did your parents do for a living

22:10

that? Because I mean, being born in Holland, I've been

22:12

a kind of randomly guess that there

22:14

was a military background or was that just random

22:16

that you were born? No, no, no, my father's

22:19

jushed, my mother's German. You know, I'm

22:22

just the four my sisters are born over there. Like

22:24

well, my my parents moved

22:26

back and forth a lot um until

22:29

I was like once I was born, they moved

22:31

back to the States for good, but they split

22:33

up by the time I was four, So I

22:36

grew up really um

22:40

with a single mom and it was just me and my brother

22:42

to a huge degree. And then my father

22:44

came back into the picture when I was like in

22:47

high school, and like he worked for merch,

22:49

Like he was like a mechanical engineer. Um,

22:51

got it. And I

22:54

used to spend but I used to spend summers touring

22:56

Europe with him basically like drive around,

22:59

um his red beetle. It was pretty

23:01

cool. Um for a couple of summers in a row, we just

23:04

drive around, stay camping

23:06

or staying hotels with the relatives.

23:09

So uh but yeah,

23:11

they they have nothing that my

23:14

parents had. They have no inkling

23:16

about music. They know that I

23:19

do it and have done it. Um. I don't think

23:21

they've ever heard a song, you

23:23

know, none of that. Um. I

23:26

was. Yeah, And I was

23:28

raised by a single mom and paid no attention, so I

23:30

was like I was. We were sort of on

23:33

our own, you know, like I could disappear for days

23:35

and no one would care. So um that

23:37

that that made for good

23:40

punk rock experience, being

23:43

able to just um be

23:46

piste off at the world and then disappear.

23:48

And I don't know, maybe

23:52

the father three and my kids are just growing up so differently.

23:54

They're like they can't even beginning to

23:56

relate. It's it's it's interesting. Yeah,

23:59

no, no, I I was. I was going to pick

24:01

up that a little bit later, just in regards

24:03

to you know, when you do the whole full circle, like you know your

24:05

your parents and you've been raised in this subcultured

24:08

environment, and it's always such an interesting thing where

24:10

it's like, oh, yeah, like you know, if my parents

24:12

didn't do these things, then I would have never you

24:15

know, gotten exposed to this or whatever. But

24:17

yeah, um, and so like

24:19

did you you know, as you were kind of you know, building your own

24:21

identity and you know, going to you know, junior high

24:23

and high school and stuff like that, you know clearly

24:26

you had been kind of consumed by music at that point,

24:28

Like did you and kind of you were joking

24:30

around a little bit earlier about you know, going to a

24:32

mainly different colleges, Like did you care about school

24:34

or did you have any sort of like quote unquote

24:36

visions for the future about what you wanted to do with your

24:39

life. Yeah.

24:41

Well, the funny thing is, so, you know, as

24:45

um, I was pretty

24:47

much a straight A student up until about tenth

24:49

grade, right, And um,

24:54

I lose with my mom and she

24:57

did. There's no parenting there. We just

24:59

sort of were roommates almost and

25:01

I did my you know, I took

25:04

care of my ship. I was

25:07

really good at school. But she came home

25:09

one day and said, God is sending me to Pennsylvania.

25:12

There's there's a song about that called riot Stairs.

25:15

Um, and she

25:17

just sort of turned my world upside down. And my whole

25:19

world was my friends, and

25:23

really it was my friends and my own little

25:25

family outside of my family that I built. And

25:28

she decided in the middle of tenth

25:30

grade that she's going to pick up and move to the middle

25:32

of Pennsylvania for some job.

25:35

And it was sort of sprung

25:38

on me. And then next thing I know, I'm living with

25:40

my father, who now has been living

25:42

in the States. Um. And

25:46

I'd never lived with him that I could ever remember,

25:48

because my parents bore when I was still young. So now

25:50

I'm in a town ten

25:52

miles away, I don't know anybody and

25:56

closet Christmas break No. Tength grade, I'm

25:58

the new kids school, and I was

26:01

I was bill equipped to deal with

26:03

that, to say the least. UM.

26:05

And I went from being a straight A student to the

26:09

master of cutting class. So I

26:11

could get in my bike and bike

26:13

back to my hometown and hang out with my

26:15

friends. Um. Because I didn't

26:17

really feel a connection to my father and

26:20

my you know, my stepbrother.

26:23

My brother and stepbrother lived there, but I'd

26:25

never really lived with them either, So

26:29

it was just like this really um

26:32

an artful way of thrusting me into this entirely

26:34

new life. And

26:38

uh that's when I discovered how piste off

26:40

I was. That's when I discovered um

26:43

punk rock, etcetera, etcetera. And

26:46

eventually I grew really close to my brother and stepbrother

26:50

because of the punk rock sort of connection. And I think

26:52

they felt just as disrupted

26:54

by this new, weird family dynamic

26:57

as I did. I think, um

26:59

so all sort of shared that. But

27:02

yeah, funny things like my growing

27:04

up, I was like, I'm a straight age student. I'm going to go to Dartnous

27:07

like my oldest sister did and

27:10

we half liver after that. That was my mindset.

27:13

And I feel like it's the most long as my mom is leaving

27:15

me alone and I'll be my ship. And

27:17

uh so she'd sort of throw a monkey wrench

27:19

in my whole world. And you know, me being

27:21

I think that's fourteen or fifteen at the time, I

27:24

just didn't know how to handle it, you know, and I know when to

27:26

talk to you about it, and so I was just piste

27:28

off all the time. Sure, sure, yeah,

27:30

well because you don't you know that, I

27:33

mean, it makes total sense because at that time you

27:35

have no agency, Like the things that

27:37

you can control are very very limited,

27:40

and so when you feel like, uh,

27:42

you know, the small things you can control,

27:44

like you know, whatever, your group of friends, like the time

27:47

that you do spend away from you know, your parents

27:49

and away from school and stuff like that, and then it all

27:51

gets yanked out from underneath you. You have

27:54

no choice but to just just completely

27:57

completely go the opposite direction and push so hard

27:59

against it. And you said, just get you know, mad,

28:01

So I completely you know, see why

28:03

the the trajectory of you being like, oh, yeah

28:05

I care about school to like, no, man, do

28:08

you you change this? You change this on me? This

28:10

the goalposts have moved. Yeah.

28:13

Yeah, you

28:15

can look back on it and go and then in some

28:17

ways I'm like, well, you know, I'm glad

28:19

it happened because I've made records and then

28:22

I've met people all over the country and you

28:24

know, it's been a really interesting life.

28:27

So yeah, it's one of those it's it's

28:29

just interesting to look back on, right, and you only

28:31

get your one life. So it's like that's

28:35

the track that was on, Yeah, that's the way the cookie

28:37

crubbled um. Yeah, and

28:40

you know kind of sort of on that that same

28:43

tip the you know and frankly

28:45

just you know the era that all of your

28:47

bands kind of existed in. Um, there

28:50

is this weird whether or not

28:52

you intentionally did it or this was just kind

28:54

of you know, like I said, a function of the air that

28:56

your bands existed in. There's always this you know, weird

28:59

air of mystery about you where it's just like you

29:01

know, people you know like generally

29:03

speaking like no one was you know, talking like

29:05

bad about you. I guess reputation wise, but

29:07

it's just like you know, people didn't really know I

29:09

guess, uh, you know from a like

29:12

music listener standpoint where it's just like, oh,

29:14

like does this Tim Singer guy just like you know,

29:17

like you were saying earlier, where you're just you

29:19

know, a pretty quiet dude. Um

29:22

you know, so like I guess, do you kind

29:24

of notice that sort of like you know air of mystery

29:26

like Tim Singers? This is this you know,

29:29

this guy that exists and like he hells into a

29:31

microphone occasionally, and you know if

29:34

I just like im I just reading way too much into it.

29:37

Um. Yeah, It's it's funny

29:39

because I hear it from I've

29:42

been actually playing with no skates the last two

29:44

years. Um, so

29:46

I'm living from full circle. But the only reason I'm doing

29:48

no skaps because already new music and that

29:51

makes me really happy. But we'll

29:54

play a couple of old songs. We'll probably play out with you

29:56

at some point. But yeah,

29:59

because our player for those skates stood, I was always like,

30:01

yeah, dude, this guy fucking hates you. And

30:04

I'm like, I don't even I really don't know who these people

30:06

are. Um, and I think

30:08

people, Um,

30:13

I think I come across a loof.

30:16

It is maybe the best way I could put it. Like I've

30:19

never really cared about people said

30:21

thought about me. Um, but

30:24

I've never really heard it either. Like I just like

30:26

I I do my bands, and I've been

30:29

with the same woman since before i

30:31

even did a fan be. You know, she's the mother

30:33

of my children. She's my wife. I've

30:35

always had other Like

30:37

I've never been all in as far as like

30:39

I'm gonna be hardcore ten fifty

30:43

two weeks a year getting the van like

30:45

it was like and

30:48

but I mean I took my band super

30:50

seriously and I was all in but not

30:53

into the scene right, Like I couldn't be talking

30:56

about every hardcore bands

30:59

that exists when I go home,

31:01

when I wake up, when I go to work, like that,

31:03

that just gets tired for me,

31:06

you know, like I can't. I can't be that guy like

31:08

I I

31:10

wanted more three sixty life or else

31:13

I go crazy like tour like you

31:15

know, there's some people are born for that or they

31:17

just like they live on the road and this is

31:19

all they do. Um, and that's

31:21

just never been me. Um. But

31:23

yeah, it's funny because you know, I'll

31:26

hear from someone like so so hates

31:28

you or or pissed at you for something and

31:30

I have no idea what it's about. And

31:34

um, and like I'm

31:36

not. I don't have any pissing matches of anybody,

31:38

like like I'm yeah,

31:41

I'm not in this to like out I grow somebody.

31:44

I'm not like yeah, So I hear stuff

31:46

like that and I go, you know, that's

31:48

too bad. And I'll talk to anybody. You

31:50

know. It's a funny thing. Like I

31:52

love meeting people. I love hearing

31:55

other people's stories. Um. Yeah,

31:58

so all this stuff I've heard

32:00

it, you know, sort of round about about

32:03

me. But you know, definitely

32:05

it's funny. Like guitar play also gives me ship because

32:07

I don't text back right away and stuff like that, Like, dude,

32:09

I didn't grow up with the fucking cell phone, not

32:12

my master, you know, an like

32:15

I just never will be UM.

32:18

And some people like live by

32:20

that stuff or like live for that

32:23

interaction and UM,

32:26

yeah, but I didn't try

32:28

to cultivate it, you know. Or but

32:32

you know, I've I've met a lot of lead singers, and I have

32:34

noticed that I'm much like UM.

32:37

I feel like I have a lot more introverted UM

32:40

or just actually quiet or I don't

32:42

seek attention the way a lot of lead

32:45

singers that I've met do UM.

32:48

And I've seen them, like, you know, they're on all the

32:50

time, like they're always trying to act like a

32:52

certain way, and

32:55

they go to bed feeling like they're the

32:57

lead singer of the band and they wake up feeling like that. And

33:00

it's never been me. I mean, I I've

33:02

always just you know, I think I've been

33:04

amazingly lucky to hook up with the

33:06

meeting musicians and

33:09

they leave me alone to sort of try to break

33:11

And I have no musical training whatsoever, but they

33:13

they leave me alone to sort of figure out, you

33:16

know, how am I going to turn this song into the

33:18

story that you know

33:21

makes sense to me? And I think,

33:23

you know, the tricking of the music, the more I tried

33:26

to make it relatable to a person like me who

33:28

doesn't write tricking music, you know. Um

33:31

and somehow I've always gotten hooked up with really

33:33

good musicians, which is just luck and uh

33:36

but you know, but I've also tried to,

33:38

like like with every

33:41

band and every song, every record, it's like I've

33:43

tried to just get more and more honest, more, you

33:46

know, more open. I don't have an agenda

33:49

right where, so I'm not I'm not like we

33:52

need to have a straight edge song or I'm

33:54

not straight edge song or you know, I try

33:56

to reactionary about quote

33:59

unquote. I try to find sort

34:02

of if I feel something that I try to figure

34:04

out what's universal about it or what angle can

34:06

I take on it? That's sort of that relatable

34:09

thing for

34:11

a long ramble for no, no, no, no, But

34:13

I well, you hit the nail on the head. I think I

34:16

think the the one too punch of, like you

34:18

said, being aloof and then not being

34:21

the you know, sort of lead singer

34:23

stereotype of a person who you know is

34:25

just like oh yeah, like obviously I'm on the center

34:27

of stage, like look at me, pay attention

34:29

to me, and yeah, they're definitely um

34:32

yeah, I I could see what we're both of them. You, but

34:34

you put both of those things together and people are

34:36

going to assume that just like oh yeah, he

34:38

wants to be the mysterious dude or whatever. So yeah,

34:40

I understand what you're saying. Hey, our

34:42

friends in pot coin are back and they

34:45

want you to know. Do you can get paid

34:47

for listening to this podcast. It's

34:49

totally crazy, but it works. I've

34:52

used it. It's great. So download

34:55

the pot coin app and it pays you to listen

34:57

to podcasts. So real simple review

34:59

on how it works. You listen to podcasts and your pod

35:01

coin while you listen. Then you turn that pod

35:04

coin in for gift cards at places like Amazon or

35:06

Starbucks, or if you're a good person, you can

35:08

do donated some charity, which I've done that, but

35:10

I've also had some coffee too. So download

35:13

the pod coin app right now on iPhone or

35:15

Android and use the code words w

35:17

O R d S and you'll get three pod

35:19

coin just for signing up. And if you listen

35:21

to enough of this very show on there or any

35:24

other show for that matter. You can get a cappuccino,

35:26

a Starbucks or Amazon gift card.

35:29

It's just it's great. So listen

35:31

to this podcast or like I said, any other

35:33

podcast, but let's be honest, just listen to this one

35:35

on pod coin and sign up with the code words

35:38

to start earning today. It will change the

35:40

way you listen to podcasts. So essentially,

35:42

just let me buy you coffee via our good

35:44

friends at pod cooin. Okay, do that now,

35:47

and I will love you and they will love you and it's

35:49

a mutual love fest. Okay, pod

35:51

coin downloaded today, use the code words.

35:54

Now, here's the rest of the show. Your your first

35:57

band experiences, like you, you know, as you started

35:59

to get you know, worst in the scene and going to shows

36:01

and doing all that stuff. Um, you know, because

36:04

Boiling Point was your your fancy and correct or

36:06

was that the first band that you played in? Yeah,

36:10

okay, just just issues

36:13

you. Okay, that's what I thought. And like you said, you were

36:15

attracted to photography at an early age and

36:17

stuff, and so you kind of you know that what was

36:19

that kind of like your first step into I guess

36:22

kind of contributing to the scene in a way. Yeah,

36:28

I'm trying to think which came first,

36:31

that or like doing a ton of like fancy

36:34

shirts. It's probably aroun at the same

36:36

time. So, like I was in west

36:38

Chester, Pennsylvania, living with my brother and

36:40

my then girlfriend now wife, a

36:44

rotating cast of you know, punk rock

36:46

kids were always around, and my

36:49

best friend Tom market Stall, we did the same

36:51

I think he lived to be up there for a while. My

36:54

stepbrother had been going to college

36:56

in Boston sort of you

36:59

know, the boss and seem a little bit and he's

37:01

like, I'm doing zine and but that's why I saw

37:03

a boiling point because it's based on SFD

37:05

song and so

37:09

he's the impetus. And then he's like he wrote

37:11

up a ton of questions and we got

37:13

the nerved to to the band. I forget

37:15

who's in the first one. It might have been American

37:19

Standard and it's a little Biscuits

37:21

I I can't remember, but uh, I don't

37:23

know who. You know. The biggest

37:25

spear was like, God, if I had to read somebody in

37:28

a dick, I'm going to be totally disappointed,

37:30

you know. I mean, like, this is punk

37:32

rock and I hope punk rock the higher

37:34

standard. I'm like the rest of the world to be full

37:36

of assholes and you can sell

37:38

out and whatever, right, and punk

37:41

rocks the place where you don't do that right. And that's

37:43

how I always felt with my advance too. It's like I

37:46

was never concerned about I don't

37:48

know, like whether or not we got paid by Victory

37:50

Record, dur anything like that, because it's not why I did

37:52

it. UM. But

37:55

so the zine came out, I

37:57

don't know exactly what years something

38:00

eight nine, and around

38:02

the same time, you know, taking the still

38:04

stream classes. I just want to make my own shirts.

38:06

I made my own slap shot shirt. I made my own

38:09

side by side shirt. I think the side by side

38:11

shirts might have gotten sold at some point. UM

38:14

made my own Grilla discut shirt, which is now a super

38:16

collectible shirt. UM. I saw somebody

38:18

wearing it as the Alone in the Crowd show actually just

38:22

last week. But UM and

38:25

I made that, and i'd write the shirts to shows,

38:27

and I remember going to GB show

38:29

and and talking to Walter. He's

38:31

like, can you punt some of those up to me? And so

38:33

that's how that whole thing started. And

38:37

there was Walter who kept going moved New York. Man moved

38:39

to New York. So Walter also

38:41

planted the seed to use After

38:43

Westchester, Me

38:46

and Tim, my wife, uh and my

38:48

stepbrother and Olive boiling

38:51

Point and my wife moved into the Youth of

38:53

Today apartment while they went on tour. And

38:55

that was in Williamsburg in like eighty nine.

38:58

So that was our intros to

39:00

really living in New York. And we had access

39:02

to like all these Youth of Today photos and we

39:05

did a Uthway interview and so

39:08

they were like the Meca bands for us. So that was

39:10

like the stream come true type

39:12

of thing. Yeah, that's that's incredible. You were

39:14

subletting their apartment while they were on tour. That's

39:16

so good. Yeah. I

39:19

remember taking the subway for the first

39:22

time from because I never took the subway

39:24

to Brooklyn, like I always watch the shows

39:26

in Manhattan, you know, like, so the

39:28

subway was like sort of terrifying. I remember having

39:31

to start taking the subway to Brooklyn, and

39:33

you know, I remember seeing Harley Flanning in on the subway

39:36

going holy sh it, you know, stuff like that,

39:38

and um, yeah,

39:41

but that's how we first started. And then then yeah,

39:44

from doing the zne you just end up being around

39:46

bands a ton, and like they want you to do their

39:48

records, and the other bands wanted me to do

39:50

their T shirts. So I was like a T shirt

39:52

guy, you know, I was doing T shirts with everybody.

39:55

Yeah, and shirts and photos

39:59

yeah yeah, and that well, I was just gonna interrupt

40:01

your train of thought because clearly that, you know, is the

40:04

the roots of you know, why you got

40:06

into you know, design and you know the branding.

40:09

And I mean even though you had no idea, like that's

40:11

what you called it, like you were just being like, oh, yeah,

40:13

i'll make it too shirt, Like I'll make us look cool or

40:15

whatever. So that's cool. I didn't know. I

40:18

knew you had any experience with design. I just didn't know

40:20

that kind of the impetus and the roots of it. And so that's

40:23

uh, I like that, um,

40:26

and so you know, I mean, I mean absolutely,

40:30

Like I know guys who are around the scene and

40:32

put out records and stuff, and some of

40:34

us are successful at what we do now and where

40:37

it's like, yeah, everything we learned we learned

40:39

from the scene because it's like and

40:41

we don't relate to people who like plug

40:44

you into this sort of corporate structure stuff.

40:47

Um, because it's like something done,

40:49

just do it and you figure it out and you

40:52

don't ask permission, you know, you know, Um,

40:54

it wires you a certain way. It's pretty cool.

40:57

So you get this education you don't realize

40:59

you're getting totally. Yeah, I agree

41:02

wholeheartedly. And that's anytime you're

41:04

applying to the creative

41:06

field, whatever that may mean, whether that's you

41:08

know, television, movies, painting, like

41:10

all of that stuff. You you know, people

41:12

that come from the d I Y culture

41:15

of I mean, it doesn't matter stylistically what you play,

41:17

but if you come from that idea of like putting

41:19

on shows and doing stuff, like you said, without

41:21

permission, I think you have

41:23

such a leg up on most people who you know it's

41:26

like, oh I need these pieces of paper in order to

41:28

tell Yeah, it's like it just doesn't it

41:30

doesn't make sense in people's brains like ours.

41:34

But yeah, yeah, we're just so

41:38

many people that like think the

41:40

CEO like royalty and I'm just like I just

41:42

don't understand it. I just cannot related

41:44

to it. Yeah, it's like just dream

41:47

like human being. Yeah, I

41:49

agree, I agree. Um,

41:52

And so you know, like I'm not gonna, you

41:54

know, be labor a lot of points for each

41:56

of the bands that you played in, but just kind of, you know, hit on

41:58

a few things that you know, I've I've noticed

42:00

per se where it was like, you know, No

42:03

Escape was you know, clearly a weird band, because like you

42:05

said, you were you know, you clearly

42:07

were coming from like, you know, the hardcore scene

42:09

in your band, you know, played a lot with other

42:12

bands of that same ilk, but clearly

42:14

you didn't sound like it because you were, you know, kind of going

42:16

in a little more aggressive route. Um,

42:20

the was it,

42:23

you know, because the lines were a lot

42:25

you know blurred back then where it's like, you know, like

42:28

and I mean in the nineties as well, where it's like, you know, you had

42:30

hardcore blands playing with like emo bands and stuff

42:32

like that. Um, you know, did you always

42:34

kind of feel like, you know, No Escape, like as you guys

42:36

were playing shows and stuff, like you kind of fit

42:38

in, but you didn't really fit in at the same time. Yeah,

42:44

I mean I felt that were it's all my bands, right

42:47

Escapes towards And

42:51

it's funny because it's like the other

42:53

bands be like, oh man, like they would really

42:55

get into what we were doing. I think, you

42:58

know, like with No Escape, it's like they were

43:00

a little rockier, but I was still just

43:02

belligerent, you know, and and we

43:05

were a little bit more like they were like, you

43:07

know, it was like early Pearl Jam and um

43:12

what the together alson changes, Like they're

43:15

they're really into that ship, so they're sort of

43:17

leaning a little bit that way, but I would always

43:19

pull it back the other way with my vocals and everything,

43:22

So there's always this sort of nice tension

43:24

there, you know. And um,

43:28

my thing was like like I like

43:31

I loved Quicksands, but they

43:33

sort of ruined hardcore in the way that

43:36

all of a sudden and you know,

43:38

and I don't know where email came from these

43:40

athletes me email it was like Embrace

43:43

and Rates of Spring, and that

43:46

to me was you know, like that sort of summer of

43:48

any seven when the Discord bands

43:50

sort of did these email things. But like

43:55

and to go back to the Quicksand thing, because

43:57

I love Quicksand, but like all this I just noticed

43:59

like every band was sort of thinking about

44:02

getting signed. Um, you

44:04

know, every band is like sort of trying to get this

44:06

sort of singer type of guy that of a heart,

44:09

like you know, and I was even getting pressured. Remember

44:11

like a R guys saying telling me when

44:13

I was a dead guy, like, hey, if you sang more,

44:16

you know, I signed you guys, and I'd be like, if

44:18

I gave a ship i'd listened to. Like, just that

44:20

sucking pissed me off more because I'm like, this

44:22

is so not like what's happening

44:25

to this like it was, It's

44:27

just it's driving me crazy, honestly,

44:29

And I was like, I just want to get heavier and earlier, you

44:32

know. So it's like I just wanted

44:34

to kill more fucking insane

44:37

because everybody's starting to fucking rock

44:39

out, everybody starting to tuck their shirts in a little bit,

44:41

and everybody's growing their hair at the same time.

44:43

It's just like I just couldn't

44:46

handle it. I was like, what it was like, quick

44:49

Sand, it was like it was fantastic

44:52

as quicksand I didn't need tend more of them.

44:54

And I think I had already lived through like

44:57

you today, it was fantastic. I didn't need

45:00

fifty more of them, you know what I mean. Like it

45:03

was just like the scene was starting to really bummed

45:05

me out because it was such a there's

45:07

so much of this like copycat

45:10

ship going on, and I wanted it to be

45:12

like, Man, all those old flyers I

45:14

had that I somehow would find

45:16

and put up in my room. It's like the Minute

45:19

Man didn't sound like Black Flag. We didn't sound

45:21

like the Bad Brains, it didn't sound like Social Distortion,

45:24

etcetera. You know what I mean. Like I wanted

45:26

it to be like that. And there's this

45:28

weird mindset started to happen where it's like

45:31

everybody just looking the sort of cash in

45:33

in a weird way. Um so

45:36

no I could say, yeah, I was, we were.

45:39

We didn't know what the funk we sounded like. Man, I just

45:41

was like, I know, I don't want to write mash parts, you

45:44

know, I know I'm not going to write about

45:46

the scene or any of

45:48

that ship. I mean, it was just getting so sort

45:51

of ancestual. I was like, I'm

45:53

just gonna treat this like I'm cracking

45:56

up. I'm gonna write about whatever the funk I want,

45:59

And you know, things like nine

46:01

Stitches and like those are literally

46:03

things that happen like and I'm just gonna

46:05

open the ship up. I'm gonna bleed onto

46:07

onto paper and then like

46:10

to me, I was almost being like a really uh,

46:13

really hardcore version of Emo in

46:15

terms of like my approach and my lyrics. UM,

46:19

and I had no idea if people would like it or not, you know,

46:21

like we had. It was definitely not guaranteed

46:24

that people are gonna like sucking dead guy like we

46:26

were. We'd be in practice going

46:28

do we suck? Like we don't even

46:30

know right, like people didn't know what to do with us,

46:32

like when we started playing. So

46:35

but I think that was the beauty of it, right, like that that

46:37

means the beauty of it. It's just you

46:40

know, four guys playing what they

46:42

want to hear only from their influences,

46:46

and then seeing if the world gives a ship or not

46:48

is sort of secondary. Sure,

46:51

totally, well yeah, especially when you um, like

46:53

you said, you're you're you're building up that context

46:56

of where I was you were coming from, and

46:58

you see all of the uh,

47:01

you know, the people that are

47:03

trying to capitalize on, you

47:06

know, the backs of all these bands that you know have worked

47:08

really hard and just been like oh yeah, like yeah,

47:11

we need to sound like you said, like quick Stand as an example

47:13

where it's just like you know, there's so many you know,

47:15

second and third rate rip offs

47:18

that you know, weren't even really necessarily

47:20

involved in the scene, and they're trying to like build off

47:22

that, and I could see where you have the opposite

47:24

reaction. You just lead into the fact like, yeah,

47:27

let's get uglier and dirtier, and uh, you know

47:29

you you accomplish that, right.

47:32

It's almost like there's gonna be white space over here

47:35

that needs to be filled. Plus,

47:37

I'm pretty here at this sort of thing, like I'm not I can't

47:40

assume like Walter anyway. So it's

47:42

through like I know what I'm good at lyrically

47:44

and vocally and what I sort

47:47

of like, like what feels real to me when

47:49

I do it? You know, yeah,

47:52

it makes sense. Yeah. So I was like, I'm gonna think

47:54

I want to hear that's all. It's

47:56

funny because like I remember remember

47:58

Walter describing you wanted to do with quicksand

48:01

he's like, you know, Jean's addition meets

48:03

for guys, he meets sort of hip hop, you

48:05

know. Like I was like, that's really cool, you

48:07

know, And I've known Walter forever and

48:09

it's like, you know, his record collection

48:13

was one tense you know,

48:15

hardcore stuff and then flip them

48:17

through and it's like fifty twos or it's like buzz

48:19

cocks or you know, I mean like it's like it was

48:21

all over the places like he was. That's

48:23

why I grow up this This was interesting, right

48:26

because they weren't like the twentieth

48:28

Marsh Coore your hardcore

48:30

bands absolutely

48:33

totally. You know, they're they're combining a bunch of different,

48:35

you know, eclectic and exciting influences

48:37

and that kind of you know, spawned out to to

48:39

what it was that they became. Yeah.

48:42

Plus their line was phenomenal. Of course.

48:44

Yeah, you can't. You can't put together

48:47

a more you know, classic classic

48:49

players as that's concerned. I was like,

48:51

ship you got Allen on drums with

48:54

I was like, and Tom Capone. I was like, holy shit,

48:57

it had to be Austle. Yeah, of course.

49:01

Um, you know, so as as

49:03

you know, as Dead Guys started to you know, come out

49:05

and play and you know, No Escape obviously

49:07

it was in the rearview from that perspective.

49:10

Um, you know, Dead Guy was definitely

49:13

way more active than you know, No Escape was as

49:15

far as um, you know, touring more and kind

49:17

of getting your name out there and putting more

49:19

music out there. Um, you know, did

49:22

you like, did you feel I guess

49:24

momentum with that band, Like, was it kind

49:26

of exciting the things that you guys were

49:28

getting to do That was a bit,

49:30

you know, on a larger scale than No Escape

49:33

or did you even have the ability to kind

49:35

of recognize that as things were happening. Yeah,

49:38

it was exciting. It was like

49:41

No Escape sort of fizzled,

49:44

doubt right. I started going. I went to Rust.

49:46

They stayed as plus they

49:48

really wanted to meet up and they

49:50

know this, I'm not talking smacking my like

49:54

my really good friends, but they wanted to be way

49:56

more rock. They wanted me to sing like I

49:59

was, you know, Pearl

50:02

Jammer or Alison. They really

50:04

were enamored with that. And I think they've

50:06

since sort of they've seen what I've gone

50:08

on to do without them, and that they and they

50:10

since sort of come full circle in a way. Um,

50:13

we can we can laugh at that, you know, and I

50:15

always be grateful that was my first band, and I

50:17

love a lot of the songs we did. But yeah, they were

50:19

like they really wanted to rock

50:22

out, So it was like we just part

50:24

of the way sort of amicably. Um.

50:27

But it also left me with this thing, I'm like, all right, my

50:29

next fucking band its gonna be full

50:32

on heavy. We're gonna and

50:34

and no Escape was a little bit lazy, but as

50:37

our first dand we didn't you know, I

50:39

was just happy to do my first band. That was like

50:41

a huge hurdle for me. And we didn't

50:44

you know, we did want to tour and it

50:46

was awesome, but we didn't. We weren't like super

50:48

ambitious. And then that guy,

50:50

we were like, we're playing every fucking weekends. We're

50:53

we'll play anywhere, We'll do anything. Like

50:55

we just had that mindset of like let's

50:57

just do this um. And that

50:59

was cool, you know, and like it

51:03

was just who will playing a lot? Like I just love playing a

51:05

lot. And I loved being in a tight

51:07

band, you know, like I love when

51:10

when we had Keith Hukins, that was like the

51:13

sort of super step that we touch. Um.

51:17

Yeah, so I know one of my favorite

51:19

things band practice. I love band practice. I

51:21

love making songs, making something out

51:23

of nothing. It is just I

51:26

don't know, there's nothing like it. So yeah,

51:29

I mean a lot of it was like, you know,

51:31

I think this is sort of how driven a little bit. A lot

51:33

of people like fucking Escape, that

51:36

guy's gonna work ten times as hard. We're gonna do

51:38

ten times as much. I'm gonna you

51:41

know, put more

51:43

effort into this and just I

51:45

don't know, and sort of proved to myself

51:47

that, you know, like

51:50

not every band needs to sound like fucking um

51:53

Alison change or fream.

51:57

Yeah, totally totally. But did you

52:00

know because clearly, you know, at that at

52:02

that time, there were not bands

52:05

that were you know, doing this for a quote unquote

52:07

living like you know, yes, you could point to the band

52:09

you know bands in the early nineties where it's just like oh yeah, like

52:11

quicksand and some of that. But then like you know, there

52:13

was you know, bands that were like touring actively

52:16

you know, your your earth crisis is and your you know, strife

52:18

and stuff like that. But like, did you

52:21

ever have you know, kind of that I

52:23

guess business vision of the band of just like

52:25

okay, like you know, we're gonna do this

52:27

because you know, over the next like you know, five years,

52:29

this is our goal or whatever, or was it just one of

52:31

those things that you were, um just existing

52:34

kind of you know, moment to moment as things were

52:36

coming, you know, it

52:38

is his moment, the moment the

52:40

band. The band paid for itself, which was

52:42

pretty exciting, you know, like none

52:45

of us had to dig into our pockets ever for anything,

52:47

which is awesome. Um the

52:49

drummer of that, Yeah, I definitely.

52:52

I think you know, he saw more that this was

52:54

an opportunity to do

52:56

something. Um, and

52:58

I never really thought of it that. You know, I don't

53:00

know if it's to my credit or to my dismay,

53:03

you know, like, um, it

53:06

just didn't really enter my mind

53:08

set. I think I was sort

53:10

of a stubborn. I also

53:12

had the means to make money outside the

53:14

band, like I wasn't. I didn't have like

53:17

a ship job. I could do like

53:19

work, I like to make money. So it was

53:22

you know, I wasn't like, oh my god, I've got

53:24

this band or nothing, you know, and what were

53:26

you doing and what were you doing to

53:29

like what are you doing? Design stuff? Back then? Yeah?

53:31

Yeah, I could just freelance and makes you

53:34

know, decent money. So uh

53:38

so I can go on tour, come back freelance,

53:40

go on tour, come back, freelance, and I was I

53:43

was fine. So I was sort of comfortable in that regard,

53:45

and it was and it was always like the through

53:47

line was it was like always designed, Like would you be designing

53:49

stuff like, you know, for like commercial agencies

53:52

and stuff like that, or would you be Because I started

53:54

doing that more and more working

53:56

at agencies and they'd know me, so I'd

53:58

be like and they always tried to hired me, but I'd

54:00

be like, yeah, now, because I'm gonna I'll

54:02

just end up quitting to go on tour, so a

54:05

right, just do this. Yeah that makes sense,

54:08

but I think it helps.

54:11

Is hard to find, so I you know, I was able

54:13

to do that. So yeah, I was never and

54:15

I guys always know, I always

54:17

had the same girl friends and so

54:20

I had to sort of life outside

54:22

of music. So I wasn't like, oh my god,

54:24

I gotta make this work. This is a matter one thing

54:27

that I can do with my life or something. And

54:30

you know, some guys that that it

54:33

is that way. You know. I remember talking

54:35

to like people in New York and They're like, this

54:37

is all I can do. Man, Like like you

54:39

know, I would kid from the burbs, like

54:41

I went to college, my parents paid for it, you

54:44

know, like these bands from New York a

54:46

lot, and they were like truly blue collar

54:48

people like they you know, it's

54:50

amazing what they've done with their musical careers

54:53

because they were promised to nothing in life. You

54:55

know. Um, I'm much

54:57

more like you know, a semi

54:59

rich kids from the Birds compared to them. He told

55:02

me that I didn't grow up that way. At the time I graduated

55:04

high school. You know, my father

55:07

was back in the States. He worked for a big corporation,

55:10

paid for my college that kind of thing. So

55:13

yeah, I wasn't back against

55:16

the wall music or nothing kind

55:18

of mindset ever, you

55:20

know, And I always I always just knew

55:22

to like the best thing about

55:25

that I've got going, no matter what was my girlfriends

55:28

like, like just I

55:30

knew she was the one and was still together thirty

55:32

years later. And how did you Yeah,

55:35

I have to pick into that because that's uh,

55:37

I mean, did you meet her in high school? Like are you guys

55:39

you know the proverbal high school sweethearts oergy meter

55:42

through shows? No, it was college. It was colle

55:46

It was like se uh

55:51

seven, So I was the

55:54

night I I forget, Um, Yeah,

55:57

but that was it. We just started together

56:00

since then, Like it's incredible we were

56:02

living together within a couple of months, and

56:04

then moved to New York together

56:07

in the US Today apartment, and then and

56:10

then we lived in Greenpoy and then we lived

56:13

in Hell's Kitchen. The whole time, I'm

56:15

pretty much minoring

56:17

in college and made during in punk lock and she's

56:20

she put herself through school and

56:24

yeah, I don't know, and I

56:26

just always knew like that was that was the

56:28

one, that was the one. Yeah,

56:31

well it's I was never that guy that was Like

56:34

so, I like, I wasn't like hanging out with hardcore

56:36

people every night or you know what I mean. Like, so, I

56:39

think that's also what maybe maybe seen

56:42

maloof you know, like I was never one of the

56:44

boys. You know, I'm gonna I was on tour

56:46

obviously because then that I'm fucking these guys

56:48

every day. But in the world where

56:51

everyone is confined to their homes, society

56:54

begins its largest beIN Watch to date

56:57

in the hallowed library of Hulu or perhaps

57:00

a shelf of DVDs you haven't looked at in

57:02

a decade, is a show that perfectly

57:04

encapsulates life in the early aughts

57:07

and launched a friendship that would

57:09

inspire millions Hi, I'm

57:11

Zach Braff and I'm Donald Phason. In two

57:13

thousand one, we start in Scrubs,

57:16

a sitcom that revealed a glimpse of what it

57:18

was like to survive medical internship.

57:21

As Turk and j D we explored

57:23

Guy. Nearly twenty years later, a

57:26

lot has changed. We're not Superman,

57:28

but we're still best friends. Given

57:30

a mandatory lockdown, there's no better

57:33

time to relive the series that brought us together

57:35

in the first place. And we're doing it with a

57:37

podcast. That's right, people, We're

57:39

gonna bring friends and crew members

57:42

and fellow cast members and writers

57:45

and and guess what, We're gonna even invite

57:47

some of you to call into the podcast

57:50

and ask all the questions you want of the entire

57:52

Sacred Heart staff. Join us

57:54

for Fake Doctor's Real Friends on the

57:57

I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast

57:59

and wherever you get your podcasts. Well,

58:03

I know, I like that. I like that. I like that picture you paint

58:05

because I think that, you know, when people feel

58:07

like they have some sort of semblance of stability,

58:10

whether it's like you know, their families behind them, they're you

58:12

know, significant other or whatever, you do have

58:14

the ability to kind of be a little more daring

58:17

in your creative pursuits, you know, or like you

58:19

said, where you felt you know, structurally sound

58:21

to be like, oh yeah, I'll just you know, when i'm home, I'll

58:23

do some design work or whatever. So it can afford

58:26

you the opportunities to be you know, a more

58:29

you know, risky in regards to, yeah,

58:31

the creative pursuits. So yeah, I I

58:33

appreciate, Yeah, I appreciate you laying it out like that. Um

58:36

And kind of on that same tip, the idea of you

58:39

know, I mean you towour for years, I mean

58:41

not only with with dead guy more, but then you know, with kids

58:43

of goodbye as while where you guys you know, really hit

58:45

it as hard as you could. Um? Was

58:48

your relationship with tour kind

58:50

of always fraught with the yeah,

58:52

I like it, but then I don't like it

58:54

because I have to be you know, playing in front

58:57

of you know, five people and you know, driving twelve

58:59

hours or whatever. Um? Or did you kind

59:01

of always have a you know, positive

59:03

relationship with to her? How did your uh,

59:06

I guess opinion evolve over time? Um?

59:10

I always loved it until the obituary

59:12

toury that kissing goodbye? Did that that

59:15

like broke you. It

59:17

sort of did sort of did um.

59:21

I didn't want to do it. I want to Kissing Goodbye. I

59:23

was like, I want us to be like Helmets, like we played Kissing

59:26

Goodbye shows. We don't try to for

59:28

you know. I mean I wanted to be like and I don't care if it's

59:30

the big um. But the band

59:32

was like, oh my god, it's a bituary. We're gonna play the tax

59:35

the people every night and all that kind of stuff. And

59:37

I was like, all right, well I got out voted,

59:40

right. I mean, they know this. This is I'm not talking

59:42

you know, I'm not talking about

59:45

it's like secret. They know. I didn't

59:47

want to really do it, but I was like I'll do it, you

59:49

know whatever. I'm up for anything. And the tour

59:52

sucks, and yet kicked

59:54

off because I think me and the bag day like

59:56

we're talking shit about them, like very

59:58

openly, and somebody in their band

1:00:00

heard it, and then they were

1:00:03

they were drawn flies. It was twenty

1:00:05

one and over, Like I think

1:00:07

pretty much every show is twenty one over. You

1:00:09

know, half the time, you could have fit all the fans into

1:00:11

their tour bus, you know, like the

1:00:13

chift is like a weird you know

1:00:16

marriage and uh and I never

1:00:19

liked that kind of music anyway. You know, I was like ship

1:00:21

man, I'm a sucking punk rock hardcore

1:00:23

kid. Was torn with obituaries

1:00:26

not on my list of things to do ever,

1:00:28

right, I think it was

1:00:30

a bituary. I always banding the same toy, but I'm

1:00:32

pretty sure it's a bituary. Um. It

1:00:35

was never like it seemed like a dream come true for for

1:00:37

some of my band mates. Um,

1:00:41

and it's yeah, I think that basically

1:00:43

broke the band. Like it was the first time my

1:00:46

wife, like that was the first time

1:00:48

she said goodbye to me and sort of had a pitt in her stomach

1:00:51

because she could tell I wasn't like super

1:00:53

into it. So it was like, as long as I was into

1:00:55

it, I can go on these tours.

1:00:58

And she was just happy for me.

1:01:00

We'd missed each other, but you know, she's

1:01:02

a well rounded person with her own friends and she'd

1:01:05

have she would do plenty of interesting

1:01:07

things without me, so you

1:01:09

know, and it got easier because you could

1:01:11

actually after a while, like calling people

1:01:13

like a first tour was tough, man, because

1:01:15

like you had to find a pay phone, you had to be able to try to call

1:01:18

him like that was tough, but yeah

1:01:21

so to me, and like I didn't care

1:01:23

about it. Like to me, playing

1:01:25

in front of nobody was never anything.

1:01:28

Um if it was like our

1:01:30

tour and you know we're

1:01:32

playing in front of like the right people who appreciate

1:01:35

it. Um. You know

1:01:37

there's always like some town in between between

1:01:40

cities where you played the twelve kids, but

1:01:43

like not never bug me. Um. I

1:01:46

mean obviously always hoped to be there'd

1:01:48

be more. But my mindset was like, all right, what we

1:01:50

do. You know, the first tour they'll be twelve, next

1:01:53

tour they'll be third. Because we're gonna put on such a

1:01:55

fucking show that people are gonna

1:01:57

lie about having been there. They're gonna lie

1:01:59

and say I was at that show when they weren't

1:02:01

like that. That was sort of my goal for every every

1:02:04

show we played. Um, I

1:02:06

wanted to be that band that was like so tight

1:02:08

and so heavy that you

1:02:11

know, people lighted up being there like that. The people

1:02:13

that were there were like I felt like, holy

1:02:15

ship, I saw something special. Um

1:02:19

So because I saw Rounds

1:02:22

in six.

1:02:24

It was his fourth show after Black Side

1:02:26

boke up and it was just him

1:02:29

sol right, and the four of the Rounds

1:02:31

band. And I saw him at this obscure

1:02:34

club in Margate, New Jersey, and

1:02:37

there might have been twelve of us there that weren't

1:02:39

like regulars at the bar, and

1:02:42

uh and it was the heaviest, most

1:02:44

intense thing I ever saw. And

1:02:47

I know I took that. I've read his books

1:02:49

and stuff a little bit of a handy Rounds

1:02:52

drunk and yeah, you're like, I'm

1:02:54

familiar with his work. Yeah,

1:02:58

but I took that experience though, And then he did me.

1:03:00

You know, I went out of my way to go

1:03:02

to that show, and he you

1:03:04

know, and he played a little and the

1:03:07

blast Flag I'm sure played the thousands of thousands

1:03:09

of people, you know, and he played that show

1:03:11

like it was like, you know, the text

1:03:13

them one bit, did the text the band one bit? And

1:03:17

I always kind of kept that in the back of my mind,

1:03:19

you know. Um, yeah,

1:03:22

I was never about the size of the show. It was more

1:03:24

about, you know, the

1:03:26

first time I got stuck in a weird like, I don't

1:03:28

know, I just anytime I felt like the machinery

1:03:31

was taken over, That's when I sort

1:03:33

of how the reaction. Yeah, you

1:03:36

wanted you want to check out of it. Um. Yeah,

1:03:39

that is interesting though, because it the the

1:03:43

fact that you know, I'm sure that you know, because

1:03:45

of all the bands you played in and you know, worked

1:03:47

with record labels and you know, worked with booking agents

1:03:50

and did these things that you know bands in the music

1:03:52

industry. Do you know, did you I

1:03:55

guess that you have an adversarial relationship

1:03:57

to kind of the business behind the bands

1:03:59

or did you do you best to like remove yourself

1:04:01

or how did you navigate that? Um?

1:04:05

I was not the point person

1:04:07

for that stuff because I wasn't I

1:04:09

wasn't super interested in it, and

1:04:12

it did make me feel sort of oh

1:04:16

yeah, I mean sometimes it's just feels

1:04:18

gross, you know, like you know, there's these

1:04:20

promoters. I

1:04:23

don't know they Yeah, it's it's they're

1:04:25

like cliche promoters, you know, and they're

1:04:27

like you just meet these sort

1:04:29

of meat heads sometimes. So like I just never

1:04:31

interested in that part of it. Um. So,

1:04:34

do you have a drummer for dead guy did

1:04:36

most of that kind of stuff? Um? And

1:04:42

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

1:04:47

yeah, And so I think a lot of times the

1:04:49

singer of the band is that guy who did all that

1:04:51

point person stuff. So another

1:04:53

way that I guess you know, I probably

1:04:56

came across a leaf or I

1:04:58

don't know. People people to about

1:05:01

right right. Yeah, people come up to you, we're like, oh yeah,

1:05:03

let's let's settle for the evening, and you're like, no, no,

1:05:05

that's not me. Just you pay someone else, please.

1:05:08

I don't want to deal with that. I'll go back

1:05:10

to the van and read comics or you

1:05:13

know. I did a ton of interviews, you know,

1:05:15

and it's going full circle for the interview thing,

1:05:17

Like I would do any interview

1:05:20

with any kid, and even

1:05:22

if they asked dumb questions, I try to give them deep

1:05:24

answers because I was that kid.

1:05:26

Like when I invenew from Guys, I was like ship

1:05:28

in my pants, you know. I mean, like this isan McKay,

1:05:31

I grew up on this ship and if

1:05:33

he's an asshole, I'm gonna be so crush,

1:05:35

you know. And uh, And

1:05:38

he was a little guarded at first, because like it was

1:05:40

like early for guys when everybody's

1:05:42

still going minor threat to him and stuff like that.

1:05:45

I'm sure you had to put up with that to some degree. But

1:05:48

once you thought that we were trying to ask cool questions

1:05:50

and that we were cool kids, and we weren't just trying to

1:05:53

you know, Trick came into answer

1:05:55

minor threat questions like he was super cool.

1:05:58

Yeah that's cool, and you went in turn, you wanted

1:06:00

to be that for other people. Yeah.

1:06:04

I was like, man that wants you

1:06:07

know, right,

1:06:09

and you're like, I get it. I did that for years. Yeah.

1:06:14

Um with uh with

1:06:16

Kids Goodbye, I find you know, it's

1:06:18

interesting because I mean, like you said, you know, the two bittery

1:06:21

kind of you know, broke you from that perspective. Um,

1:06:24

but you know, Kids Goodbye, Like it definitely felt

1:06:26

like there was more of a I

1:06:28

guess trajectory for the band, Like you could easily

1:06:30

see you know, by that time, you

1:06:32

know, in the later nineties, you know, bands like you know, Neurosis

1:06:35

and like Relapse had obviously you

1:06:37

know, risen to prominence and there are a lot of labels

1:06:40

that trafficked in the you know, weird

1:06:42

art that you've been creating for some while, for some

1:06:44

time in all your bands. Um, and

1:06:46

then you know, I mean the fact that like sub Pop was going to put out a

1:06:48

seven inch for you guys, and you know before you broke up,

1:06:51

Um, like so I guess did you

1:06:53

did you feel a different momentum with kids

1:06:56

and goodbye or did it kind of feel similar

1:06:58

ish to um, you know what you kind of experienced

1:07:00

with with Dead Guy or or

1:07:03

was it kind of you know, one of the same. Uh

1:07:08

it felt tell

1:07:13

me to kiss you by. It just feel like we were like veterans,

1:07:15

you know what I mean, Like we'd all done bands and all done

1:07:17

tours. Um so

1:07:21

it wasn't completely businesslike, but it was

1:07:24

you know, everybody's more like me at

1:07:26

that point where it was like we did the band and we

1:07:28

all had our own sort of family lives

1:07:31

going on to some degree, and

1:07:33

uh yeah, and bands were like, you

1:07:35

know, like the whole

1:07:38

machinery for our scene had become

1:07:41

more sort of polished and professional

1:07:44

in a way. So it did feel like, um

1:07:48

yeah, like everything sort of moved up a notch.

1:07:51

I guess, you know, like we the

1:07:53

way we're the budgets for recording

1:07:55

and he's you know, getting sound engineers

1:07:58

and stuff like that, and um

1:08:02

yeah, so and we and we we

1:08:04

were way more business like. We practiced even

1:08:06

more than Dead guys. We practiced all the time.

1:08:09

Um yeah. We we

1:08:11

lived more for tours and trying

1:08:14

to play like the local scene so that there

1:08:16

was a little bit of a different vibe. I think, in

1:08:19

some ways less of that sort

1:08:22

of a punk energy that that guy had. That's

1:08:24

funny, like if I listen back now, I can

1:08:27

sort of feel the mood of each band, like you

1:08:30

know, no escapes like my first band and I have to

1:08:32

get that out out of the way. And and Ted

1:08:34

guy was the most sort of experimental, what

1:08:37

the funk are we doing? Creating

1:08:39

new territory? And then

1:08:41

like Kissing Goodbye was like we're

1:08:44

the higher to sad Like it was like the best

1:08:46

drummer I could imagine, the best bass player, I could

1:08:48

imagine the best part, like you know, it's

1:08:50

a little more mercenary, you know, um,

1:08:53

you know, we're a little more you

1:08:55

know, we're just a little bit older and wiser. I guess

1:09:00

Fixation is the record that people talk

1:09:02

to me about by far the most, you

1:09:05

know, so like in retrospect,

1:09:07

I think that was the one where truly sort of you

1:09:11

know, coming the closest to just creating

1:09:13

a new thing, you know what I mean absolutely

1:09:16

well. I mean I like the trajectory that you uh,

1:09:19

you know kind of laid out there too, because it's like, you know, of

1:09:21

course everybody needs to do a first

1:09:23

band, and like it's very rare where the

1:09:25

like you know, first project like last year for like twenty

1:09:27

years, you know. So it's like you need to have those

1:09:30

growth the logical

1:09:33

evolutions of you know, musically, how

1:09:35

you're expressing yourself, even though it's all kind of under

1:09:37

the you know, the same premise of

1:09:39

you know, aggressive music. But then yeah, it's

1:09:41

like by the time you're you know, your second or third

1:09:44

band in like you said, you have the experience where

1:09:46

it's like, Okay, I know what to

1:09:48

not. I know not to make these glaring

1:09:50

mistakes. Like we're still going to make mistakes, but

1:09:53

I know how to like avoid some of the pitfalls

1:09:55

from the previous ones. Yeah,

1:09:57

yeah, sure, you know, like your

1:09:59

first band, like you have a lyric book from your days

1:10:02

of just fantasizing about being in a band,

1:10:04

and you have like, you know, seriously

1:10:06

keen lyrics, you know,

1:10:09

like because like someday I'll be in a band

1:10:11

and I'm like writing lyrics to like tons

1:10:13

that don't music that doesn't exist, and it's like,

1:10:16

yeah, it's just it's just funny, you know. But you

1:10:19

sort of you just sort of have to do that it's like

1:10:22

it's like having a first date or something. I don't know. Yeah,

1:10:25

so to me that there was a natural evolution from

1:10:27

one band to the next, I sort of feel like it's

1:10:30

funny because Dead Guy I called up REV

1:10:32

and I was like, Hey, I'm doing this band. It's

1:10:34

a little bit out, you know, it's not your

1:10:36

typical thing. But I knew Jordan for years,

1:10:38

and Jordan's like, hell pass because

1:10:41

like he only knew sort of how to sell hardcore.

1:10:44

He knew how to sell, you know, and the Dead

1:10:46

Guy had a ton of success, which

1:10:49

lent to Kissing Goodbye being on UM

1:10:52

Revelation, And

1:10:54

then I think Kissico Bye didn't really fit on Revelations,

1:10:57

you know, like we made no sense on that label, and

1:10:59

I only wish we were on something else. It

1:11:01

would have made a lot more sense, you know, yeah,

1:11:05

totally. Yeah, if you mean, if you put out records

1:11:07

on you know, hydra Head or Relapse or anything

1:11:09

like that, it's like stylistically, yeah, stylistically

1:11:12

would have made a lot more sense. Um. You

1:11:14

know, people can see the lineage of the fact of

1:11:17

oh yeah, it's not weird to kiss it could buy released stuff

1:11:19

on REV. But sonically it definitely was,

1:11:21

you know, not a kid to anything anything

1:11:23

that they're average rev kid today,

1:11:26

like you know, they're not. I

1:11:28

feel like you can tell me this to

1:11:31

me, I feel like there's like there's

1:11:33

people who know me for Tim is No

1:11:35

Escape boarding point, and there's people who know

1:11:37

me as Tim Dead Guy and just Goodbye,

1:11:40

and it's very different. You know, like

1:11:42

the dudes from Every Time I Die and bands

1:11:45

like that UM reach out to me

1:11:48

and I don't even know if they don't No Escape exists,

1:11:50

you know, it's like it's all about Dead Guy and anything after.

1:11:53

It's like I feel like there's this fork

1:11:55

in the road as far as the type

1:11:57

of people that may have liked me for one, but

1:11:59

like I know people who like think No Escape

1:12:02

the ship, and I don't think they give a ship about

1:12:04

bid Guy. It's

1:12:06

really interesting, right, Yeah, there

1:12:09

is. Well, I mean I think too, just because

1:12:11

I think probably you know, they're in quicker

1:12:13

succession. You know, Dead Guy and kind of Kissing

1:12:15

Goodbye existed in the same ecosystem

1:12:17

where there was you know, less of

1:12:20

a shift between UM,

1:12:22

you know, like No Escape existing

1:12:25

with a whole different crop of bands. You know. It's

1:12:27

like I think that I think generational.

1:12:29

I mean I always try to view like, you

1:12:31

know, independent music and sort of you know, four

1:12:34

year spaces where it's like, you

1:12:36

know, whatever you'd say generationally speaking

1:12:38

to another human and they would be like, oh, yes, from like

1:12:40

the sun to their daughter or son or whatever or

1:12:43

the But like in hardcore and punk,

1:12:45

like it turns over every four years, and so I think

1:12:47

that that's probably the delineation

1:12:50

line between No Escape and Dead Guy, where

1:12:52

it was like, oh yeah, there's four years make

1:12:54

a huge difference, you know, even though there wasn't that much

1:12:56

time in between the bed two bands existing. But yeah,

1:12:58

that's it's an interesting trend of um.

1:13:02

You know, kind of the two last questions before I let

1:13:04

you go, is that the the

1:13:06

common theme amongst most of your kind

1:13:08

of creative output, UM is the fact

1:13:11

that you know, from a musical perspective, like I'm

1:13:13

not you know, picking apart your design work, but the

1:13:17

the music was always you know, kind of a bit early

1:13:20

where I was like, you know, No Escape you

1:13:22

know, definitely didn't fit in with the context of you know,

1:13:24

youth crew hardcore. But then you know you're

1:13:26

split with Turning Point is you know, very high

1:13:29

regarded on both turning Point songs and escape

1:13:31

songs, but that was at the very tail end

1:13:33

of the you know, the band existing. Um,

1:13:35

and you know, Dead Guy could have made more

1:13:38

sense in the late nineties as opposed to you know, kind

1:13:40

of in the mid nineties. And you know, Kissing Coop I

1:13:42

probably could have make could have made more sense in the early

1:13:44

two thousand's or whatever. Um. So

1:13:47

I'm sure you have kind of noticed that within

1:13:49

the context of your own artistic output,

1:13:51

where it's just like yeah, just and not even like,

1:13:54

you know, I'm cool, I'm like always ahead of the curve, but

1:13:56

just like I always feel

1:13:58

like maybe just doing this a few years before

1:14:00

everyone's kind of collectively ready. Yeah,

1:14:04

yeah, yeah,

1:14:07

I mean I've noticed that. It's just funny because like,

1:14:11

um, you all of a sudden, like you

1:14:13

know, I remember when Dollinger Estate Plant was starting

1:14:15

and people are like they were looking for a singer

1:14:17

and there's a rumor they wanted to ask me to sing

1:14:20

for them, and um, and

1:14:22

then years later, you know, they're like one of the biggest

1:14:24

They play on Conan and they're like one of these biggest

1:14:26

bands in the world, and it's like, I

1:14:29

think we definitely are that band. I

1:14:32

feel like my face and this whole

1:14:34

thing has been you know, to

1:14:36

be that band's band, to be the band that these bands

1:14:39

that are big like Reference or

1:14:41

well where the T shirt of? Or you know, like

1:14:43

like Jacob from Converge or like name dropped

1:14:45

me on Instagram, you know, and I'm like, I

1:14:49

got one point. You're like doing my best tim singer

1:14:51

right, And I'm like, and I look at how many fucking

1:14:54

followers he had, and I'm like, holy fuck.

1:14:56

I mean, you know, and he's

1:14:59

like he's an awesome dude, Like he's actually putting out

1:15:01

the practices black um for

1:15:04

demoti projects thing. But

1:15:07

yeah, it's like, you know, clearly

1:15:12

I didn't have a crystal ball. I think we were just doing our own

1:15:14

thing, and um, you

1:15:16

know, I'm super proud of that. And it's like I'm

1:15:18

proud that these bands that have gone on to like it's

1:15:21

it's a weird sort of confirmation

1:15:25

of what we're doing, I guess. But I was never seeking

1:15:28

commercial success, and I certainly

1:15:30

expect like

1:15:33

this stuff to be as commercial as it is. Like it's

1:15:35

sort of crazy, um, you

1:15:38

know, like so like I did just vocals on

1:15:40

the last every time I die that

1:15:43

Low Team's record, right, Um, because

1:15:45

I became through Instagram, I became

1:15:47

buddies with a couple of guys in the band, and then me and me

1:15:50

and the singer started trading some

1:15:52

emails. He shared with me what the song

1:15:54

was about. I shared with him like we had some

1:15:56

similar intense experiences around

1:16:00

parenting actually and and stuff

1:16:02

like, so, um,

1:16:04

I should really cap into this one song. And they

1:16:07

sort of helped me crawl out from under my rock and get

1:16:09

back into the studio and sort of get

1:16:12

excited about making music again. But

1:16:14

it's like I was like visiting

1:16:16

a friend in San Francisco. His daughter is like, you're

1:16:18

on the same record as the guy, uh

1:16:22

kind of at the disco right because he does

1:16:24

guess vocals on that, And

1:16:26

it's like blowing her mind. She's

1:16:29

like, holy shit, who are you? You

1:16:31

know? And uh, yeah, it's just weird

1:16:34

that this stuff as we're such a wi you

1:16:38

know, like when when Low Tunes came out, it's like

1:16:40

I think I went to Best Buy and saw

1:16:42

like posters for it, you know, and

1:16:45

and when I was showing, you know, my

1:16:47

kids, like, yeah, I'm doing guess vocals on record,

1:16:50

and I pulled it up on Spotify and how many followers

1:16:52

they had. My kids are like, who are you? You

1:16:54

know, like it's just so like

1:16:57

this this widespread excess,

1:17:00

and I think it's still a little bit under the radar. It's

1:17:02

not like the mainstream

1:17:04

radio. But no, because

1:17:07

but I do think it brought me completely suppies,

1:17:09

you know, like I always hear bands can make a living, like I

1:17:12

would hear the Neurosis thing was out there, right,

1:17:14

Like if I wanted to live like neurosis, I always knew

1:17:16

that was possibility, right, like

1:17:18

just pour all the time now

1:17:21

and live out of your van or

1:17:23

you know whatever. I knew that was. Like I

1:17:26

was pretty sure you know that guy orchistic

1:17:28

Goodbye could have pulled that off. I wasn't

1:17:30

really interested in spending you

1:17:33

know, two hundred days of the year with

1:17:35

my bandmates in all honesty, and

1:17:37

I don't think I don't think

1:17:39

I was the only one. You know, Um, I think that's what it

1:17:41

takes. Yeah, And

1:17:43

it's and I think too with the kind of you

1:17:46

know the fact that this aggressive

1:17:48

music has now existed in the you

1:17:51

know culture and pop culture uh

1:17:53

spectrum now for you know, thirty plus years

1:17:56

that the people who have been

1:17:59

you know, creating this for you know, many

1:18:01

many years, whether it's playing in bands or whatever. Now

1:18:03

the fact that they are of an age where it's like, you know, most

1:18:05

of these people are in their thirties, forties, fifties, and

1:18:08

you know have like jobs that can

1:18:11

influence culture, whether it's like you know whatever,

1:18:14

doing art, doing you know, being creative

1:18:16

in different ways, and they're all coming from

1:18:19

the same the same space.

1:18:21

It's like, yeah, it's only going to you know, grow larger,

1:18:24

but again always always going to be the

1:18:26

undercurrent of like, oh yeah, this is stuff is never gonna be

1:18:28

played in the radio, but it can be. It

1:18:30

could be reasonably popular. People can play

1:18:33

to you know, three or four thousand people at night,

1:18:35

and like that's what happens. And you know, but yeah, when

1:18:37

you were when you were existing and touring, it's

1:18:39

like, no, there's no way, like Kids Goodbye

1:18:41

could play in front of three thousand people collectively

1:18:43

over a year, maybe, right,

1:18:46

Yeah, yeah, you know. Highlight was

1:18:48

like I think we played a couple of thousands

1:18:50

when we toured with The Unseen and

1:18:53

they just come off a touring with Slayer,

1:18:57

so we've played this really big space in l

1:18:59

A and it

1:19:01

was past and that's probably the biggest show that

1:19:03

played. Um it was awesome,

1:19:06

Like it's awesome, and it's port of weird,

1:19:08

right because I was like, holy sh it, like, um, I

1:19:11

can't see the people in the back, Like it's weird,

1:19:13

right right right, And I'm like, what do I

1:19:15

look like up here? I look like a like a tiny

1:19:18

little thing. And I'm not running around like you

1:19:20

know, I'm not. I'm not you pop on stage.

1:19:23

I'm not like you know, I just sort of plant my

1:19:25

feet and get into it. And um,

1:19:28

yeah, it's

1:19:30

sort of crazy, you know. Yeah,

1:19:32

it's weird. It's weird. It's weird when you're now

1:19:35

I pictures a fucking you

1:19:37

can stick of it all or whoever chromegs

1:19:40

all these bands like they played these South American

1:19:42

things and so like insane, you

1:19:45

know, totally totally. Um.

1:19:48

Well, the last thing I want to hit on was the fact, like like

1:19:50

you mentioned earlier, I mean, you know, bid with your

1:19:52

significant other for many many years, You're you know, a

1:19:55

family man. You you know, you do design

1:19:57

work. You obviously still play, you know in

1:19:59

musical objects and stuff like that. Um,

1:20:03

the you know, the the undercurrent

1:20:05

of you still being you know, interested

1:20:07

in playing like you know you're playing up No Escape and

1:20:10

doing process black stuff. Um like

1:20:13

does that does that? It's just always kind

1:20:15

of exist of like oh, yes, like I always

1:20:18

want to be involved with this, you know,

1:20:20

even if it's me not going to you know, a

1:20:23

hundred shows a year. Uh, this is still

1:20:25

an incredibly important part of

1:20:27

my life. And I guess what kind of keeps you connected

1:20:29

to that in a way. Yeah,

1:20:32

that's funny, Like, um, it's

1:20:36

just still in there. I think, you know a lot

1:20:38

of ways, you're still the same, you know, like

1:20:40

I haven't changed all that much from being a teenager.

1:20:44

You know, the world in a lot of ways. Uh,

1:20:46

sadly proves you right, you know, like my

1:20:50

first real job when out of the dead guys, Like, Okay,

1:20:52

all the ship I thought about corporate motherfuckers

1:20:54

is true, right, and everything I think

1:20:56

about so all, I don't know all that. You

1:20:59

almost get more just off the older you get in

1:21:01

set in some ways, and and

1:21:04

then you have offspring and you get sort of piste

1:21:06

off for them and pist office

1:21:08

too easy to turn. But um, I

1:21:10

don't know, there's no shortage of things for me to sort

1:21:13

of expand

1:21:16

on and it's just what's

1:21:18

really interesting is getting into a

1:21:20

room with guys and we like we're writing

1:21:23

music and the and the song is sort of

1:21:26

happened, right like lyrically, they just sort

1:21:29

of happened, you know. And I think I've gotten into

1:21:31

a space where I don't come

1:21:33

there with like pre written lyrics, like ideas

1:21:35

for lyrics maybe, and then it just just

1:21:38

comes out of me. So I don't even know. It's

1:21:40

like at this point, it's just in

1:21:42

my DNA and uh, and

1:21:45

I know it's something. It's like this

1:21:48

is how, this is how. It's the kind of axistic

1:21:51

expression I like, whether it's music or

1:21:54

movies or or whatever. Like,

1:21:56

Um, I like these things

1:21:58

that happened to these darkness is that recognize

1:22:01

them, that sort of kick

1:22:04

the stones up to see what's underneath. Like I

1:22:06

just like all that kind of ship. Um,

1:22:09

and somebody, the world's gotten worse, right, I

1:22:11

mean, we don't have to get into obvious

1:22:13

politics, but the world's fucking surprisingly

1:22:19

bad, totally fucking surprisingly

1:22:22

bad. Um. I mean when

1:22:24

that motherfucker took over the White House. But

1:22:26

like my my daughter was my she

1:22:29

was like sobbing, you know, And I

1:22:31

think I felt sick for like weeks, you know.

1:22:34

Um So, And it's

1:22:36

funny because like even touring like like just

1:22:41

like uh, the

1:22:44

ship you see the racism and everything

1:22:46

else you see on tour with like when you get out of your

1:22:48

bubble because New York's a bubble. Um

1:22:51

the New York areas a bubble in a lot of ways where you're

1:22:53

just like the small cultural mix

1:22:55

of people and exchange of ideas and stuff.

1:22:58

Um. I don't know, I just I

1:23:01

guess the more sort of you should see the world for what it is

1:23:03

and just go holy shit. Um

1:23:06

So I think there's that to tap into. And yeah,

1:23:08

I don't know, it's just always I've

1:23:11

stopped trying to Like it's

1:23:14

funny because like it's like I don't walk around

1:23:16

all day kicking like you look, staring at my

1:23:18

feet and be morbid and cressing

1:23:21

and black or something. Um there's a balance

1:23:23

to it. But it's like when I do this, that's what it's

1:23:25

for, you know. Um And

1:23:28

I found that I still have it basically right,

1:23:30

like a couple of opportunities,

1:23:33

like you know, the process Black thing

1:23:35

with Aaron Edge just sort

1:23:38

of gave me this music to listen to and asked

1:23:41

if I could put vocals over it. I

1:23:43

found it super difficult because that wasn't part of the

1:23:45

songwriting process. That's why I had to stop.

1:23:48

Um, it was not that organic thing.

1:23:51

But um, you know, and then No Escape, I think

1:23:53

we've played some reunion show for something.

1:23:55

I did it just to see how it feel

1:23:58

and um, you know, and m and

1:24:01

I found that I still have an interest and I still

1:24:03

love it, and I still sounded and

1:24:07

yeah, but now there's like zero agenda, like

1:24:09

you know, like like we

1:24:12

practice, we practice quite a bit. We've

1:24:14

written six new songs No Escape has

1:24:17

and uh, I'm laying

1:24:20

down vocals for like the final three and who

1:24:23

knows who's going to put it out of them really necessarily

1:24:25

care. Um, but I like, I just like making

1:24:27

music, Like you know, you make a song that can

1:24:30

used to exist. It's kind of cool. Yeah, yeah,

1:24:32

no, it's cool because it's like the

1:24:36

you know, part of the beauty of

1:24:38

the you know, internet and ease of access is

1:24:40

the fact that you know, so many of these

1:24:43

bands from whatever eras can

1:24:45

exist in the space in which it's like, yeah,

1:24:47

there's like literally no pressure, like no band needs

1:24:49

to break up anymore. No, but I mean people

1:24:52

can, like you know, people can like not tour,

1:24:54

but it's like that's fine, Like, but you can still put

1:24:56

out music if you feel the compulsion

1:24:58

to and like it is uh it is a special

1:25:01

place to exist in to just be like, oh yeah whatever,

1:25:03

Like if we you know, those Cape Finishes

1:25:05

are record, we want to put it up on band camp tomorrow, Like

1:25:08

we can do that and that's cool. And then the people that will

1:25:10

know about it, like you know, those are the people

1:25:12

who have done the research on it or whatever. So it's yeah,

1:25:15

I get what you're talking about. Though. It's just exciting

1:25:17

to be able to still uh I

1:25:19

guess kind of contribute and feel that that feeling

1:25:21

of what it's like to be creative in

1:25:24

a different area for

1:25:26

sure. Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's amazing

1:25:28

because like, of all the things I've done over the last

1:25:31

earty years, Like, it's pretty

1:25:33

fucking cool that like people

1:25:35

have been listening to your music and

1:25:39

like embracing it or making part of it. Because

1:25:41

people reach out to me constantly, like I get

1:25:44

random emails or MS

1:25:46

or whatever. I always respond back,

1:25:49

um, and that's just cool. Like there's nothing

1:25:51

else quite like that where something that you created

1:25:55

um has an effect on somebody that you've

1:25:57

never met. It could be across the planet, you

1:26:00

know. Um, there's something just magical

1:26:02

about that. It's pretty cool. Yeah, absolutely

1:26:06

well, Tim, thank you so much for hanging out. Dude.

1:26:08

This was enjoyable for me, and uh,

1:26:10

you know, I hope it was enjoyable for you in some capacity.

1:26:14

Yeah. Yeah. And one more side note. So, uh,

1:26:17

I was I had back

1:26:19

surgery almost

1:26:22

like a week and a half ago, right, and I'm

1:26:24

fine, It's like it's it

1:26:26

was over. This nerve has

1:26:28

been pinching me and so I finally got this surgery

1:26:30

and I feel fantastic if nothing

1:26:33

more bitter or sad anyway. But uh,

1:26:35

but I was in the hospital hang out my

1:26:37

wife and this guy uh

1:26:40

like text means like you listen

1:26:42

to this and it was your podcast and it's the one where you

1:26:44

guys come up with these dream bands. Yeah,

1:26:47

the fantasy draft. Right, thank

1:26:50

you for that, which is surreal. It's funny

1:26:52

because I'm sitting here in like a hospital gown. We

1:26:56

didn't have, like waiting for my surgeon to show up.

1:26:58

I'm just listening to the pott in my wife.

1:27:00

So what the hell are you listening to? You, what do

1:27:03

you because I don't know. This

1:27:05

guy told me a hand to listen to this rais yeah,

1:27:08

and then like so that was cool.

1:27:11

That was like then you know, an hour later

1:27:13

putting me under it. But as hey

1:27:17

man, it's it's great. You're you're you're perfect in

1:27:19

my my fantasy draft and yeah, I'm

1:27:22

I'm very glad I was able to draft you and no one else told

1:27:24

you, so yeah, I worked out perfectly. That

1:27:30

was Tim Singer. Thank you very much,

1:27:32

Tim for coming on the show. I

1:27:34

um, yeah, it's just it's so cool

1:27:36

to be home to speak to people whose music

1:27:39

I've listened to and appreciate it for such a long time.

1:27:41

And you know, Tim and I we're

1:27:43

professional acquaintances, but I still

1:27:45

feel really cool myself to be

1:27:47

able to talk to him on this medium. So thank

1:27:50

you very much to him. That's a long winded way of me saying

1:27:52

that, what do we have next week? We actually

1:27:54

have speaking of Curl Up and Die, which

1:27:57

is you know that that that awesome thing that's

1:27:59

happening in June June twenty and Chain

1:28:01

Reaction. I have my friend Mike Mennick,

1:28:04

who's the vocalist of the band We talked about that

1:28:06

reunion. We talk about his methodology

1:28:08

for getting it together, his feelings on

1:28:11

it, and just a bunch of other stuff because you know,

1:28:13

frankly, both karlpe and I and Taken

1:28:15

exist in the sort of like you know, reunion ecosystem,

1:28:19

not in ways that you know other bands exist,

1:28:21

because both of our bands are relatively

1:28:23

small whole things considered. But um

1:28:26

yeah, we had a real, real fun chat, and I

1:28:28

just wanted to make sure that he had

1:28:30

the space in order to kind of express

1:28:32

that, um, you know, in a long form way,

1:28:35

because people will make a million assumptions

1:28:37

about why bands get back together, so I wanted to

1:28:40

have my con So that's what we're doing next

1:28:42

week. Okay. Have you always wanted

1:28:44

to learn how to play a musical instrument? I have to

1:28:46

say thank you to use san It is

1:28:48

the best way to learn, practice and master and instrument.

1:28:51

It listens to you play and gives you feedback in

1:28:53

real time on your accuracy and your

1:28:55

timing. Visit musician dot com slash

1:28:58

words to try usicition with discount

1:29:00

using the code words. I love this app

1:29:02

so much. Here's the good news. The number

1:29:05

of collisions involving a train at railway

1:29:07

crossings is down from its peak

1:29:09

in the nineteen seventies. Here's the bad

1:29:11

news. There's still more than two thousand

1:29:13

incidents in a year. Like I said,

1:29:16

please just stop when you

1:29:18

are near the train tracks. Trains

1:29:20

cannot okay, Please be safe.

1:29:24

You've been listening to the jabber Jaw podcast

1:29:26

network jabber Jaw Media dot Com. Hi,

1:29:38

I'm est Dean. I've made my life

1:29:41

by writing songs like Fireworks by

1:29:43

Katie Perry, Super Based by Nicki

1:29:45

Minaj, What's My Name by Rihanna,

1:29:47

just the name a few, and now I'm having

1:29:50

an absolute last sharing

1:29:52

some of the knowledge that I've learned with upcoming

1:29:55

songwriters on song Land on NBC.

1:29:58

I'm excited to welcome you to a a

1:30:00

new season of song Land and sung

1:30:02

Lance podcast, giving you new insight

1:30:05

into the magical art of songwriting.

1:30:08

As Toby has some of the best in the

1:30:10

business, and also the pioneers

1:30:13

and the up and comers will be shaping

1:30:15

the hits you'll be listening to for years.

1:30:18

We have an amazing roster of talent this season.

1:30:20

I promise you you don't want to miss one

1:30:23

single episode. Don't miss

1:30:25

song Land Monday nights at ten nine

1:30:27

Central and join us. Your All Song Lens

1:30:29

podcasts, available every week

1:30:32

after the show, on the I Heart app

1:30:34

or wherever you get your podcasts.