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Welcome to the 20 Things adoption

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podcast with your host adoption

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author Sherry Eldridge. Adoptive

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parents will find hope here. Hope

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that strained relationships with their adopted

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children can heal.

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I am so happy to introduce

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our guest for this podcast, her

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name Isna . And

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I'm gonna read you a little bit about her biography

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cuz she's such an awesome person . She

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has been working as a child and family

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therapist for over 20 years

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. She has trained

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in 15 countries in

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three different languages. She's

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the co-author of therapy . Let

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, let's see, what's the subtitle? The practitioner's

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guide. She has been

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successful in working with children

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and parents from all kinds

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of backgrounds. So welcome.

1:02

I'm so glad that you could come

1:04

on and talk a little bit about adoption

1:07

. There's just , uh, a lot

1:09

of parents that are waiting for this podcast . A

1:12

lot of parents that I've worked with have

1:14

not felt heard in the field of

1:17

adoption and have not seen , even though their

1:19

kids may go through therapy, it

1:22

didn't turn out successfully. And that

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my heart just kinda bleeds for those parents

1:27

and it bleeds for the kids cause we're

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both hurting and we both need

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help . I loved how you talked about

1:35

how your therapy practice was

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honed over the years . Can you share a little bit about

1:40

that ? How you turned from being a

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, a really sensitive girl

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into clinical social worker

1:47

and then in residential care

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and then there wasn't

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the success you hoped for. Right,

1:53

Right, right, right, right. I mean, I

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think the way I come to be a

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social worker is that like

2:00

many therapist, I felt

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other people and other animals pain so much

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that I like identified with them and

2:07

wanted to like, you know, help them like be by

2:09

being with them , which I'm sure a

2:11

lot of people identify with this, but like there was a straight

2:13

cat and I refused to come inside and like, you

2:15

know, my parents were like , oh my God, this child is not

2:17

gonna come inside <laugh> . And they were forced to bring me

2:19

inside and the cat , I really

2:23

have always been looking

2:26

at things from the perspective

2:28

of like the underdog or the person

2:30

who's like, who's voiceless. And

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um, it comes from my own childhood. My mom was

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voiceless, my grandmother was voiceless. And

2:38

so it's all a part and parcel of why

2:40

I became a social worker. But when

2:42

I went to social work school,

2:44

you know, I did all this schooling and then

2:46

I took the first job that I got talked

2:48

to your friends' parents or whatever, you

2:51

know, so there's this like sense that like

2:53

your parents are persecuting you because you

2:55

have a lot of scary feelings

2:57

of shame and stuff like that. This kind of , my

2:59

guess as to that, part

3:02

of it is just this like built in thing

3:04

that you're triggered by stuff that you don't

3:06

know what it's about. Especially

3:08

if we all know it doesn't matter if you were adopted

3:10

at birth and had like a healthy year

3:12

of birth, mom had a healthy pregnancy or not, you're

3:15

still like at loss in some way

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. Yes . But especially if you

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had things happen to you in utero

3:21

or that you had separation

3:23

where you were not held in

3:25

the arms of somebody Right . Who was loving

3:28

towards you and who had that loving gaze

3:30

that every baby who didn't

3:32

have like somebody look at them and feed

3:34

them and say, oh, you're hungry baby. And

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be able to take the bottle out to

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give them the time to drink and stuff, all

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that. If you didn't have that, it's much, much

3:43

worse. You know? And so you're sitting on some

3:46

of that not knowing why you're triggered.

3:48

And then there's this who's like

3:50

watching you all the time and then your parent has

3:52

their own stuff your adoptive parent has , and

3:55

also they are completely different

3:58

from you . They don't have to be even

4:00

this different color, but especially if

4:02

they're a different color, you feel so different.

4:04

It's almost like the entire childhood is

4:07

set up for you to be in conflict with

4:09

this parent. So far you feel like you identify

4:11

with that ?

4:12

Oh yes , definitely. It's

4:14

a challenge being adopted, but I

4:16

wouldn't trade it for anything really. People get

4:19

mad at me for saying that, but you know,

4:21

I've had a wonderful, wonderful life and

4:23

have found all of my family, you

4:26

know, my birth family and stuff like that.

4:28

So yeah, I totally agree.

4:31

People are get mad at you for saying

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that you not give up your

4:35

experience of being adopted.

4:37

Right. And I'm pro adoption,

4:40

they , you know, people have grilled me over

4:42

that, but I was a tiny baby

4:45

with a mother that fanta suicide

4:47

and she was gone immediately

4:50

and I wouldn't have had home without

4:53

adoption . You know , I think about all the kids

4:55

out there that need homes . So anyway

4:57

, I didn't get off on

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that .

5:00

There's like, no right or wrong

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here, we just are dealing with a phenomenon

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of children that need care. You

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don't deny the person's longing

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for their birth family.

5:12

Oh no .

5:13

The opposite.

5:14

No , it's always there . And that's okay

5:16

. That's the

5:18

Human tradition essentially to be have

5:20

this, like the human condition is

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to have duality.

5:23

Can you tell more about that, what

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that means?

5:26

Basically like we can't have everything.

5:28

We have one thing, we look at the other

5:30

thing and wonder about it. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , we have

5:32

that other thing. We think about what, where

5:34

we were before. It's the same thing with having

5:36

like mixed feelings. We love our

5:39

child, but you know, they're

5:41

an encumbrance on , we love our partner, but he,

5:43

she whatever is making us feel Yeah.

5:46

Whatever, suffocated or, or limited or

5:48

we wanna see our ourselves in a different prism

5:50

or we wanna have mm-hmm . <affirmative> additional relationships.

5:52

Like I think that having ambivalent

5:55

feelings for the most part as long,

5:57

long as it's, it's not like the most predominant,

5:59

you know, feeling in your life that like, that's

6:02

really human and we have to accept

6:04

that we can't fight that

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and consult being this dialogue within ourself

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to say like, oh, what's wrong with me? You know, why

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am I thinking this way if I only did this? And

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just to say, oh, I'm of two minds about this

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and that's okay . I don't have to resolve this

6:17

.

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I like that. That's very cool.

6:20

I'm sure that will be meaningful, especially

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to adoptees that are watching. Thank

6:25

you. Well, I told you I was

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gonna throw you some curve balls . Are you ready for

6:29

that ? Some examples ? Sure

6:32

. Um , okay , we already

6:34

talked about a newborn really. So

6:37

what about a school-aged child

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who just has a meltdown

6:42

every time it's time to go to school

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or go somewhere else? Is

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this common for adopted

6:48

and foster children to act

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this way? And what can parents do

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?

6:53

Oh my goodness . Is

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it common? It's extremely common.

6:58

Yeah. The reason I said oh my goodness

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is because there's so much

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that depends on the reason why

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he's having a meltdown. However, one

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of the things that

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creates the most pressure is

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when there's this like building like

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tension towards a

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deadline and the deadline is the

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school bus is leaving or whatever, the

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car is leaving, you know, you're gonna be late to school

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and then if you're late to school, the teacher's

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gonna blame me. You know, you're gonna lose

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out on whatever. They're gonna punish you, they're

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gonna punish me. My boss will also

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be mad at me or the whatever it is.

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Whether it's an a concrete pressure

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or a perceived pressure of I

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can't get to my kid to school on time. What's wrong with

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me as a parent? That is usually

7:45

the first place to try

7:48

to let go. Okay . And I mean, you

7:50

do not have control over whether

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your kid is going to go

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smoothly into the car with their backpack

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and shoes on and get to school on time.

7:59

That is the first thing to give

8:01

up is like, you need to set up everything

8:04

so that the possibility for it to

8:06

go well before, you know, to go out the door

8:08

smoothly happens. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , yes, absolutely.

8:11

Get the pack backpacks ready, get

8:13

the lunches packed, get a good night's

8:16

sleep, et cetera . But usually

8:18

it's that sense of like, okay

8:20

, you gotta get your shoes on, come on, we're

8:23

gonna be late. And that is the

8:25

thing that doesn't allow the

8:27

parent to be attuned to the child and be able

8:29

to like flow with 'em and that whole

8:32

thing escalates from there. So

8:34

that's the first place I would take a look at is how

8:36

much pressure and take the pressure off,

8:39

don't get to school on time, it's not

8:41

worth it.

8:42

Okay . That's good . So that parents

8:44

can escalate it as

8:46

you just said . Right. Just make

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the pressure even more ,

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A lot more . And it's built

8:53

our expectations as parents, so you

8:56

expect that you can control it and if not, like

8:58

what's wrong with you or what will teachers say or

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whatever

9:01

Yeah . What will the neighbors say? Yeah.

9:04

And got an adopted kid there, you

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know, adopted kids don't behave, that

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type of

9:09

Thing . Oh

9:10

Yeah. Society.

9:11

And so I don't know if you're asking like

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for actual like possible behavioral solutions

9:16

at this time, but I am answering the question.

9:18

Yes, it does happen a

9:20

lot. Well, you're definitely not alone. If so

9:22

, whoever's asking the question, you know, so

9:25

for behavioral solution you can only control yourself.

9:28

So you would need

9:30

to notice if you are , um, getting

9:32

into control battle and trying

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to like cajole and prod

9:37

child thing to do is

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to move through your morning in

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the direction that you wanna go, which is out

9:43

the door. And if the child is like,

9:46

you can suggest that they, you know,

9:48

help them to put their shoes on in a playful

9:50

way or you know, set out the

9:52

breakfast and see if they're gonna eat. But

9:54

if not, like you take your child

9:57

without having breakfast and you take

9:59

their shoes in your hand and you move towards the

10:01

car and you send the car and

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then you wait. You know, you hope that they come in

10:05

and come along with you the control

10:08

battle of cajoling and prodding

10:10

and asking 10 times and then going, oh

10:13

, oh , I can't believe this. You

10:15

know? Yeah . That is where you're

10:17

not like letting go of the

10:19

control battle. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> . And so that is a lot

10:21

about what I, I mean I have to spend time with parents

10:23

on that.

10:25

Well do you think dafna that adoptive

10:27

parents and foster parents that

10:29

it would really benefit them to do a recovery

10:32

work? Like I've had to

10:34

do that myself, you know, to

10:36

get free of hate and anger and

10:39

all that kinda stuff. Just when

10:41

they're, you know, willing to take a good

10:43

hard look at themselves, admit

10:45

failure and so on , and

10:48

then to get built up again in

10:50

different ways. But do you think that would

10:52

benefit them ? Yeah ,

10:54

Absolutely. That's what

10:56

I mean when I say to you have to take

10:58

the time to be with

11:00

yourself, examine yourself. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , figure out

11:02

what your patterns are. Let

11:04

go of old, you know, beliefs and

11:07

patterns. Yes . And ,

11:08

And you have to

11:09

Work probably in therapy, you

11:11

know, and be able to

11:13

check in with the therapist on a

11:15

regular basis to be able to

11:19

maintain that, you

11:21

know, more less reactive self.

11:24

Mm-hmm . <affirmative> and like , you know , the maintaining your

11:26

practice of self-care. It requires

11:28

maintenance and kind of you need somebody

11:31

to re re reorient you all the time also.

11:34

Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , especially if your kid is changing all the time, you

11:36

know, the kids are growing . Right . Changing . It's

11:38

interesting you called it recovery .

11:39

That's smart book. Yeah . Ok . Recovery.

11:42

What comes to mind? Ok , when

11:44

I say recovery is that recovery

11:46

from the, I've seen it

11:49

as the condemning self , you know, where

11:51

they're so convinced that they can't, can't

11:53

meet the needs of the child that

11:55

they parent outta fear sometimes.

11:58

For sure. Yes. I'm with you

12:00

on

12:01

That . You know, our time is almost gone.

12:03

It's gone so fast . I

12:05

hope you come back sometime . Please

12:08

share about your training that is

12:10

coming up. I believe it's just

12:12

for therapists. How can

12:14

parents and adoptees and

12:17

birth parents find

12:19

a competent adoption

12:21

competent therapist? What

12:24

should they look for?

12:26

Okay , first of all about my training. So I

12:28

do D D P training for therapists,

12:30

but they're , I also have a training for

12:33

that . Parents are welcome to attend as

12:35

well and adoptees. And it's on

12:37

my website called Integrative Attachment

12:39

Family Therapy. And that

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is, you can look on my website

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for that or people can email me at

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daphna com . My

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recommendation for an adoption therapist,

12:52

I would like them to be

12:54

able to articulate first of all that

12:56

they work with the parent and child together. That's the

12:58

number one thing. And never exclude

13:01

the parent unless there's a really strong

13:03

reason of, you know, parental pathology

13:05

or something like if or if the teenager needs

13:08

to talk about things that are happening. Which , okay , so I understand

13:10

that if you wanna work, if a , their adolescent

13:13

wants to work with a therapist one-on-one,

13:16

but that parent is oftentimes

13:18

the biggest catalyst for change in

13:21

the child's life.

13:22

Oh , that's encouraging.

13:24

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

13:27

And then I would want that therapist to articulate

13:30

to me what trainings have you taken that

13:32

you're actually certified in or

13:34

have deeply trained in rather than, you

13:37

know, a one day overview or a four day training. I'm

13:39

sorry, but taking a four day , you know,

13:41

level one therapy play or D D P or

13:43

one, you know, a three day emdr . It's

13:46

not enough. I would prefer to go to a

13:48

therapist who doesn't say that they specialize

13:50

in 50 million things in all age

13:52

groups like adoption

13:54

, A person who is adopted and

13:57

especially is coming for attachment issues needs a specialist.

13:59

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So I would just read their website.

14:02

Do they say I work with geriatric and babies and

14:04

children and adolescents and couples and

14:06

you know, and I work on every single thing

14:08

under the sun. I just don't know that that is

14:10

a person who's in depth enough. So

14:13

those are some things,

14:15

and I think in the first moments

14:17

that you meet a therapist, you

14:19

know, the first meeting should be about checking

14:21

to see how much that therapist makes

14:23

you feel like you're okay the way you

14:26

are. Like that they

14:26

Understand. That's good.

14:27

You know that you make sense. That's a

14:29

feeling. Yeah . And you get it from persons, you

14:32

know, everything. They're nonverbal and they way they

14:34

answer questions and the way they move, but

14:36

also how they answer your email and

14:38

whether they came on time, like are they trustworthy?

14:41

That's just kinda help sense thing.

14:44

Fabulous advice . Thank you so

14:46

much . Now thank you for sharing

14:49

your wisdom with all of us .

14:51

It's my honor. Thank you.

14:53

Thank you.

14:56

Thank you for listening to the 20

14:58

Things Adoption podcast. If

15:00

you can think of friends or family that would benefit

15:03

from this information, feel free to share.

15:05

See you next time.