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Warning. The following podcast,

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crime that makes you

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on the slaughter. We

1:02

are mad haunted ground.

1:05

The three spooked

1:08

girls. Hey

1:11

there, spooksters, and welcome back to another episode

1:14

here on three spooked girls. My name

1:16

is Jessica, and as always, I am joined

1:18

by my favorite ghoul friend, Tara. Hey,

1:21

spooksters. Today, for our stabby

1:23

snippet, we are doing the

1:25

story of Ma Barker. If

1:28

you remember, Tara told us

1:30

about, like, some kind of, like,

1:32

lesser known female serial killers. And

1:35

she was on this list, so I was

1:37

like, Bet, I'm gonna do this because she

1:39

apparently a crime boss. I love this. Her

1:41

picture alone, you knew she was a badass.

1:44

So, Ma Barker goes by

1:46

many names. She was born

1:48

Arizona Donnie Clark, but she

1:51

went by Ari or

1:53

Kate Baker or Ma

1:55

Baker or Rita Ma

1:57

Baker. She has several names. I

2:00

do feel like kind of gangsters

2:02

from that timeframe had multiple

2:04

names. Oh yeah, for sure.

2:06

She was born on October 8th, 1873 to John

2:08

and Amelia, Amelion,

2:12

Amelion, I don't know how to

2:14

say her name, Clark and Ashgrove,

2:16

Missouri. So not too, too far

2:18

from Oklahoma border. Hmm, neighbor. Yeah,

2:21

she all up in Oklahoma, trust

2:23

me. Her family actually would call her Ari,

2:25

which I was like, why did they call her Ari?

2:27

I was like, her name is Arizona. I get it.

2:29

Well, the first three letters. Yeah, I

2:32

get it now. I was dumb. Oh no, it's

2:34

like. Super cute. And

2:36

it also makes me think of like, cause I haven't really heard

2:38

many women or many people be named

2:40

Arizona, but it makes me think of

2:43

like Grey's Anatomy. Cause like one of

2:45

the doctors' first name is Arizona. Yeah.

2:49

So around the age of 19, Ma

2:51

would enter her first and only legal

2:53

marriage to a man by the name

2:55

of George Barker. And I say first

2:58

and legal, you'll understand it a little

3:00

bit. They had four sons, but they

3:02

would eventually move to Tulsa, Oklahoma, where

3:04

George would work a series of like

3:06

low wage or low skilled jobs. And

3:08

like he worked for the water company.

3:10

He was a farmer. He was a

3:12

watchman, a station engineer and a clerk.

3:14

So like not really like high thinking,

3:17

high paying jobs. The FBI,

3:19

I was like, ooh, the FBI involved.

3:21

The FBI would describe George as shiftless.

3:23

And I was like, first and foremost,

3:26

two things. One, the FBI has a

3:28

description of you. That's

3:31

a- That's not good. Fun fact, right?

3:33

Second, it's not a nice one because

3:36

shiftless means like you are lazy and

3:38

have zero ambition. So they were like,

3:40

man, not that great. The two

3:42

would have four sons. Their son Herman would be born

3:44

in 1893. Their

3:46

son Boyd would be born in 1897. Their

3:49

son Arthur would be born in 1898. And

3:52

their son Fred would be born in 1901. Apparently

3:55

according to the FBI, which I'm just like, I

3:57

love that the FBI is the source for a

3:59

lot of- in this story. Neither

4:02

George nor Ma gave a crap

4:04

or paid

4:06

any attention to their son's education and

4:08

the boys were more or less illiterate.

4:11

Which makes sense because they didn't have

4:13

any skills so the Barker boys started

4:15

becoming criminals in the 1910s.

4:18

Herman at the age of 17 would begin his

4:20

crimes free. That's when he was first arrested.

4:22

At the age of 17 in 1910 he

4:24

was arrested for highway robbery in Webb City,

4:26

Missouri. Oh, okay. And I think this

4:34

is probably one of the reasons why that like between the

4:36

1910s to the 1920s the Barker family

4:39

moved to Tulsa. They were like, well, maybe we

4:41

should stop having our teenage delinquent sons to highway

4:44

robbery. And I'm gonna go through like literally all

4:46

the major stuff later. There's a ton of it,

4:48

but I'm gonna go through it. And this would

4:50

become a popular choice for Herman and

4:52

he and his brother Lloyd would

4:55

they supposedly joined the Central

4:57

Park gang of Tulsa, Oklahoma.

4:59

And Herman was once again arrested

5:01

for highway robbery on March 5th

5:04

of 1915. But George wouldn't

5:06

stay in the picture forever. He was

5:08

not one to like be around.

5:10

So George was last listed living with

5:12

his wife in the 1928 census

5:15

in Tulsa or in the city directory.

5:17

And it's either that she threw him out

5:20

or that he left because he could not

5:22

stand that his family had become a bunch

5:24

of heathen criminals. Oh, which

5:26

I'm like, mm hmm. According to

5:28

writer Miriam Allen deferred, George gave

5:31

up completely and removed himself from

5:33

the scene. The FBI also said

5:35

that George left Ma because she

5:37

had quote unquote loose morals

5:40

and was having outside dates with

5:43

other men. Okay. And this would

5:45

actually leave Ma to be

5:47

like actually pretty impoverished. She lived in what was

5:49

known as like a dirt floor shack from 1928

5:51

to 1930. And then she would actually in the

5:53

1930s she met a jobless man by

6:00

the name of Arthur Dunlap or Dunlap is

6:02

how it's sometimes spelled. And in the 1930

6:05

census, she's actually described as his wife,

6:07

though they were not married because technically

6:10

her and George never divorced. He just

6:12

fucking skiddie at old. And this also

6:14

like from 1928 to

6:17

1930, all of her sons weren't some

6:19

sort of imprisonment and incarceration. But when

6:21

they got out in 1931, when

6:24

Fred got released, he actually joined

6:26

a gang. They formed a gang

6:28

with Alan Karpus and they became

6:31

the Barker Karpus gang. Some friends

6:33

said that George and Ma fought

6:35

over what the boys were doing

6:37

because Ma kind of approved that

6:39

the boys were these like lawless

6:41

men. But George did not, though

6:43

I will say that it did not like

6:45

he wasn't technically noted as a criminal.

6:47

In fact, people say that George wasn't

6:49

a criminal. He just wasn't good at

6:51

being a productive member of society. But

6:53

when his sons would die, fun fact,

6:55

they do. He would actually like be

6:57

the one to like claim next of

6:59

kin and get their death benefits. Like

7:01

claim their shit. Okay. If you

7:04

remember earlier, I mentioned that the boys

7:06

joined the Central Park gang. The

7:08

Central Park gang was also known

7:10

as the Kim's Tyrell gang. And

7:12

it was a prohibition era bank

7:14

robbing gang led by Matthew Keems

7:16

and Ray Terrell. And they basically

7:18

it was like in the 1920s,

7:20

their crime was high profile robberies, but

7:23

they also would escape from prison.

7:25

Of course. Yeah, they would do

7:27

that a lot. And apparently the

7:29

members all were alleged to have

7:31

sworn blood oaths to free each other

7:34

from jail so that if they were

7:36

ever captured or they would attempt to

7:38

die. Uh huh. Ray Terrell began

7:40

working with the gang in

7:42

Tulsa, Oklahoma in the early 1930s. And

7:46

basically, oh my God,

7:48

these people were just like they would go

7:50

and rob banks. Ray would

7:53

use the alias GR Patton and he

7:55

and Arthur, which is one of the

7:57

sons of the barkers, went and robbed

7:59

the Muskegee Bank in January of

8:01

1921. He

8:04

was convicted of second degree robbery and they were

8:06

both sentenced to two years in jail. And they

8:09

actually like served their time, which I was like,

8:11

Jesus Christ. But here's the fact, in 1923

8:13

and August 20th, they

8:16

robbed, ready for this? The

8:18

Kate Limited, which was the train car

8:21

people. They robbed $20,000 in cash and bonds

8:23

in 1923. Did

8:26

you look up how much that is today? No, we'll

8:29

Google it right now. $363,013.02 in today's money. Damn,

8:35

from one job? Uh-huh, that's crazy.

8:38

But this would be bad because

8:40

this would result in a

8:43

like shootout, these gangs all got

8:45

in shootouts with law enforcement and

8:47

stuff like that a lot. So

8:49

Herman Baker, if you remember, after

8:52

this like robbery, they ended

8:54

up getting in a shootout

8:56

with law enforcement and Herman

8:58

actually shot a cop, like

9:00

point blank shot a cop. And

9:02

he actually ended

9:04

up killing himself because he didn't

9:07

want to go to prison. Oh,

9:09

mm-hmm. It said that he killed himself

9:11

to avoid prosecution because there was like shootouts

9:13

between them and other gangs and police officers

9:15

and he was injured. So yeah, also

9:17

this was in 1927. This

9:20

was before George left Ma. But a

9:22

lot of people point to this moment

9:25

because it's the floss of their first child.

9:27

Herman was literally their first born child, but

9:29

because he was dead, like he died, they

9:31

are like, I think George was like, fuck this.

9:33

Like I can't, like it's one thing that they're

9:35

robbing banks or highway robberies and you're supporting this,

9:37

but the fact that we lost a child, like

9:39

you need to put your foot down. So if

9:42

you remember Ma in the 1930s, Ma

9:45

met up with a man, what's the last

9:47

name of him? It was Arthur Dunlap. And

9:49

they basically started traveling around and

9:51

there was actually a $100 reward because

9:54

she was like part of the group, right?

9:57

Quote unquote. There was a $100 reward to

9:59

capture old lady. Ari Barker, and

10:01

this is also about the time all of

10:03

the gang members would refer to her as

10:05

Kate. So this is where the

10:07

Kate Barker came from, which actually makes sense,

10:09

but also the reason Ma Barker, because all

10:12

of the gang members were her fucking

10:14

kids and their friends. She was literally their

10:16

mom. Right, it was like, Ma. So

10:19

in 1932, Arthur Barker is released

10:22

from prison because the gang robberies,

10:24

they all get caught. So he's released

10:26

from prison, Fred is released from

10:28

prison, which is how they have

10:31

the the Carpus-Barker gang, or Barker-Carpus

10:33

gang, which however you wanna say

10:35

it. And they go to Chicago,

10:37

and immediately their reputation is like,

10:40

they're basically depression-era, prohibition-era gangsters. Who

10:42

do you think in this

10:44

area of Chicago, they're gonna catch

10:46

attention? It's one Mr. Al Capone.

10:49

And he was like, hey boys, come work for

10:51

me. And they were like, maybe

10:53

not, because they all end up

10:55

dead, which is true. A lot

10:57

of Capone's henchmen weren't, you know,

10:59

he didn't have that much loyalty

11:01

to them, especially Lo. So they met

11:04

this racketeer by the name of Jack

11:06

Prefer, suggested that they moved to St.

11:08

Paul, Minnesota, because basically it was a

11:10

safe haven for wanted criminals. And the

11:13

group would move up there, and they

11:15

would begin to operate under the protection

11:17

of when Mr. Thomas Brown, or known

11:20

as Big Tom, who

11:22

was the St. Paul's police chief. So they

11:24

could have all of this like, commotion

11:27

and conundrum. It was basically said that

11:29

like, Ma's boyfriend wasn't very well-liked, let's

11:31

be real, because he was considered a

11:33

drunk, and he also was loose-lipped when

11:35

he was drunk. So, you know, if

11:37

you're drunk all the time, you always

11:39

talkin'. And members of the gang, especially

11:41

Alvin Karpus, who is Fred's friend,

11:44

who they have the gang together, they didn't trust

11:46

him, and they basically were

11:48

like, he's a pain in the ass.

11:50

And like, one specific thing is that

11:52

they were like, like at a hideout,

11:55

because they just committed a crime. And

11:57

basically, Arthur Dunlap told, he was like,

11:59

oh, They're in this hideout and blah,

12:01

blah, blah. And he's talking and a reporter

12:03

from True Detective Magazine is there. Basically the

12:05

only way they get out of this is

12:08

that big Tom, the chief of police

12:10

was like, dudes, you gotta go. Your

12:12

mom's boyfriend is chit-chatting. The gang

12:14

was like, ma, he's gotta go. And they

12:17

killed him and they left him naked in

12:19

the street. Essentially, well, damn. He had a

12:21

single bullet wound to the head. They

12:23

were like, fuck this dude. They executed him.

12:25

They were like, yeah, talking. So let's

12:27

get into like, we're gonna run through

12:30

the big things that they did. So

12:32

from the 1900s to 1920s, Herman Baker, we

12:35

talked about, did his first big robbery that I got caught

12:37

for. And I wanna say that's the one he got caught

12:40

for cause like, unless he was really bad at being a

12:42

criminal, I don't really think you get caught the first time.

12:44

Well, no. And it's like, would your first job

12:46

really be that big of a one? Right. You're

12:48

probably really robbing other places first. For sure. We

12:51

talked about when he joined the central parking in 1915 and

12:54

in 1918, Arthur, or his name was Doc, was

12:59

involved in a US automobile theft

13:01

and was arrested and then a

13:03

scape. I love it. From

13:05

1920 to 1929, Arthur is arrested again in

13:10

Joplin, Missouri, but he's returned to

13:12

Oklahoma, to Tulsa. Lloyd, or

13:14

Red Barker, is arrested for vagrancy.

13:16

I mean, like, we're just talking

13:18

like that kind of stuff. Arthur

13:20

also went by Bob. Bob

13:23

Barker. Bob Barker. Oh

13:26

my God, it's not American. Bob Barker, that's

13:28

the name he went to prison with in 1921.

13:32

Well damn. Yeah,

13:34

so in 1921, we mentioned Fred

13:36

is released from prison. They have their

13:38

gang. They start, they get arrested for

13:41

like burglaries and they kind of build

13:43

up to like their big shit. Then

13:45

they moved to St. Paul. On

13:47

January 8th, 1935, Arthur is arrested in Chicago And

13:53

a Barker gang member by the

13:55

name of Russell Gibson was killed

13:57

and they capture another gang member.

14:00

Byron full ten. So basically they're like

14:02

where the fuck are the rest of

14:04

your gang members and are like we're

14:06

not gonna tell but somehow. Either loose

14:08

lips, sink ships in this line, or

14:10

they sound evidence and basically say that

14:12

about Mob Barker and her. Son.

14:15

Were in Florida. There in Florida

14:17

they sound stuff in the gang

14:19

members possessions. They found a map.

14:21

To wear their hideout was.

14:24

An. Opal while her Florida. So

14:26

the F B I find out

14:28

I know the Fps Salima. They

14:31

have be identified the house where the

14:34

gang were staying of from a reference

14:36

to a local alligator. Known as

14:38

Joe. Gator which was mentioned in

14:40

a letter that. Dot sense but that

14:42

was sent to Doc as say. Basically

14:44

they found out this they had

14:46

like rented this house. So agents

14:49

around the house and it's at

14:51

Thirteen Twenty Five Oh East Highway

14:53

Seat as Twenty Five on the

14:55

morning of January Sixteenth. Nineteen Thirty

14:57

Five The F B I were

14:59

not aware that Alvin Corpus. And

15:02

like other gang members had last like

15:04

three days earlier and that it was

15:06

only mom and fried in the house.

15:09

Said. In the agents storm the

15:11

house and they start firing. And

15:13

it's apparently in our word, the

15:15

laws. Shootout between the two people inside

15:17

and the F B I on the

15:20

outside. Basically they just kept shooting until

15:22

gunfire stops. Did they win Inside Ordered

15:24

the he any man for the rental

15:26

property. That they were at to go and his name

15:28

is Willie Woodbury and they put him in a bullet

15:30

proof vests and are like. Fun side and

15:32

see if anyone's alive. How fucking. Root

15:35

of these F B I Agents. And. Then

15:37

they basically. Found both bodies of

15:39

Fred an Ma in one of

15:41

the front bedroom. They were together

15:43

spread apparently was riddled with bullet

15:46

wounds were Ma appeared to have

15:48

only a single bullet wounds. Said

15:50

they were shooting with the purpose for. Her

15:53

according to the F B I a

15:55

tommy gun was found lying and her

15:57

hands. And other sources. say that it

15:59

was lying between the bodies of Ma and Fred.

16:01

The bodies were put on public

16:04

display and then stored unclaimed until

16:06

October 1st of 1931 when

16:09

relatives came to bury them and

16:11

they are buried in Welsh, Oklahoma.

16:13

Don't you worry about the other

16:15

Barker boys because they would not

16:17

do well for themselves in the

16:19

future. So Herman has died, Arthur

16:21

is in prison, Lloyd, or Red,

16:24

he actually would go on to serve in World War

16:26

II as a cook and

16:29

he was employed at like POW

16:31

camps at Fort Custer in Michigan

16:33

and he actually received an honorable

16:35

discharge and he got a medal for

16:38

good conduct. Could you imagine

16:40

being like, I fucking murder people but also look

16:42

at my pretty award. Very opposite,

16:44

right? But on March 18th,

16:46

1949, Lloyd Barker's wife would

16:51

murder him. Ooh. And

16:53

then she was sent to the Colorado State

16:56

in St. Mechelum. Now a lot of

16:58

people are like, how is Ma Baker

17:00

connected to all of this? Like how

17:02

is she like the ringleader of this?

17:04

And basically some people think that because

17:06

Ma was part of

17:08

the shootout, that the FBI created

17:10

this whole, Ma was the ringleader and

17:12

basically told them where to knock things

17:14

off and do things and she was

17:17

kind of the mastermind behind it so

17:19

that they could basically quantify killing an

17:21

old woman. Interesting. Yeah.

17:24

According to the FBI, J. Edgar

17:26

Hoover himself claimed that Ma

17:28

Barker was the most vicious,

17:30

dangerous and resourceful criminal brain

17:32

of the last decade. Damn.

17:35

He also claimed that she enjoyed the lifestyle

17:37

that the fruits of her son's crimes and

17:39

supposedly had a string of lovers. Because yeah,

17:41

that was the other thing is like when

17:43

she lived in that dirt shack, apparently she

17:45

was, she entertained a lot,

17:47

put that way. Gotcha. So basically her

17:50

children were murderers and she was complicit

17:52

in it. She has been in

17:54

popular culture. There is a film from

17:56

the 1960s called Ma

17:58

Barker's Killer Brood. and then there's

18:01

Bloody Mama from the 1970s, and then

18:03

Public Enemies is apparently also about

18:05

her in 1996. Ma

18:08

Barker was just this like, I guess

18:10

the question really is, was she a

18:12

criminal mastermind who had a bunch of

18:14

people executed for being, especially her ex-boyfriend?

18:16

And it's only her ex-boyfriend because she

18:18

had him killed, or her common law

18:20

husband, I should say. Be like, oh

18:22

no, sorry bye. Or, is she just

18:24

a mom who's trying to protect her kids? Because

18:26

every time her kids got in trouble, Ma was

18:29

there in the court, shouting, no, my kids don't

18:31

do this, no, she would try to get them

18:33

out all the time. So, I mean, I guess

18:35

it's up to you, because we'll never know, because

18:38

it was in the 30s. But I choose to,

18:40

like you said, her picture leads me to believe

18:42

that she was up to no

18:44

good. Oh, for sure. I'm trying

18:46

to think, there's definitely, I've seen movies

18:49

and stuff where you think it's the kids,

18:51

or the men involved, and then all of

18:53

a sudden you're like, oh shit, it's the

18:55

woman. For Women's History

18:58

Month, we are apparently

19:00

talking about a criminal boss who's a

19:02

woman, so. Yes. So,

19:05

I hope you enjoyed this episode. I didn't know

19:07

who she was until Tyra told us about her, and

19:09

I was glad to look in to see more. But

19:11

with that, we're going to go ahead and sign

19:13

off. We will be back on Monday with another episode.

19:16

Toodles! Bye!