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to 500-500. One

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2:04

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2:08

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2:12

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4:48

the past year, hospitals, pharmacies, tech

4:51

companies, Las Vegas's biggest hotels

4:53

and casinos have been paralyzed by

4:55

ransomware attacks in which hackers

4:57

break into a corporate network, encrypt

5:00

or lock up critical files, and

5:02

hold them hostage until a

5:04

ransom is paid. It's

5:06

a crime that has been growing more

5:08

costly and disruptive every year. Now cyber

5:11

security researchers fear it's about

5:13

to get worse with

5:15

the emergence of an audacious group of

5:17

young criminal hackers from the

5:20

US, UK and Canada the

5:22

FBI calls Scattered Spider. More

5:25

troubling, they have teamed

5:27

up with Russia's most notorious

5:29

ransomware gang. This

5:35

past September, one of the most

5:37

pernicious ransomware attacks in history was

5:39

unleashed on MGM Resort, costing the

5:42

hotel and casino giant more than

5:44

$100 million. It disrupted operations at

5:46

a dozen

5:50

of the most renowned gaming palaces on

5:52

the Las Vegas Strip. MGM

5:54

Grand Aria, Mandalay

5:57

Bay, New York, New York, the

6:00

the Bellagio. Anthony

6:04

Curtis is a Las Vegas fixture.

6:06

He's so good at counting cards,

6:08

he's been banned from card games

6:10

here. He now publishes

6:12

the Las Vegas Advisor, a

6:14

monthly newsletter on all things

6:17

Vegas. Incredibly, when it happened,

6:19

I was in an MGM property. It happened

6:21

while we were having dinner and it just

6:23

began to be a rumbling that something was

6:25

going on. When I went down

6:27

into the casino, I could see then that

6:30

slot machines were sitting dark, people

6:32

were scrambling around, the shutdown was starting to

6:34

take effect. Across the

6:36

Vegas Strip, thousands of slot machines suddenly stopped

6:38

paying out. So all of a sudden now

6:40

people are going, how do I get my

6:43

money? What's wrong? And the

6:45

people were sitting there waiting and couldn't get paid. Were

6:47

they angry? They were getting angry, yeah. And

6:50

this was just the tip of the iceberg. Elevators

6:53

were malfunctioning, parking gates

6:55

froze, digital door keys

6:57

wouldn't work. As

6:59

computers went down, reservations locked

7:02

up and lines backed up

7:04

at the front desks. Anything

7:06

that required technology was not

7:08

working. Sounds like chaos. Nobody

7:10

knew what to do. And including the employees,

7:13

the employees just had to beg

7:15

forgiveness and patience. Look, it's

7:18

corporate terrorism at its finest. The

7:20

company declined our interview request, but at

7:23

a conference a month after the hack,

7:26

MGM's CEO admitted the

7:28

disruptions were devastating. For

7:31

the next four or five days, with

7:33

36,000 hotel rooms and some regional properties,

7:36

we were completely in the dark. The

7:38

hackers demanded $30 million

7:40

to unlock MGM's data.

7:43

The company refused, but

7:45

they still paid a price, $100 million in

7:47

lost revenue and millions

7:51

more to rebuild their servers. So

7:54

how did the intruders get in? Through

7:57

a technique of deception and manipulation

7:59

called... social engineering. First,

8:02

hackers zeroed in on an employee,

8:04

gathering information from the dark web

8:07

and open sources like LinkedIn. Next,

8:10

a smooth-talking hacker impersonating the

8:12

employee called the MGM Tech

8:14

Help Desk and convinced them

8:17

to reset his password. With

8:20

that, the hacker was

8:22

inside MGM's computers and

8:24

unleashed the destructive malware.

8:28

Anthony Curtis says it was the cyber-criminals version

8:30

of an Ocean's Eleven heist. They're doing it

8:32

the old-fashioned way, I mean, they're doing it

8:35

the new way, but with the old-fashioned goal,

8:37

they want to get the money. What do

8:39

you make of that? I don't want to

8:41

be too glowing like I like these guys,

8:44

because they're just crooks, right? But

8:46

these hackers were able to turn the

8:48

tables. The casinos have their systems, they

8:50

have their protections, they have

8:52

their experts, they have their security. These

8:55

guys are better. Later,

8:57

MGM's biggest competitor, Caesars,

9:00

admitted it also suffered a social

9:03

engineering attack around the same time,

9:05

suspected by the same group. But

9:08

Caesars paid a ransom,

9:10

reportedly $15 million, and

9:12

suffered no disruptions. From

9:15

an FBI perspective, our position is we

9:17

recommend a ransom not be paid, but

9:19

we understand it's a business decision during

9:22

a time of crisis. Brian

9:24

Vordren is head of the FBI's

9:26

cyber division. He told

9:29

us ransomware attacks have grown

9:31

increasingly brazen. Any way

9:33

you look at the numbers, it's a

9:35

problem for the global economy and for

9:37

the U.S. economy and for the

9:39

security of the United States. There's

9:41

estimates that global losses exceed one

9:43

billion U.S. dollars per year. Have

9:45

you made any arrests in the

9:48

Las Vegas cases? We're not going

9:50

to talk about specific cases or

9:52

specific companies. But He did

9:54

point us toward the prime suspect. When

9:56

We talk about the actors behind some

9:58

of the more recent. Ran.

10:00

Somewhere attacks the name that's generally raised

10:02

Scattered Spider and that's a criminal groups

10:05

are we have a lot of attention

10:07

on because of the have a they're

10:09

reaching across the United States. Scatters.

10:12

Spider is what the F

10:14

B I calls a loose

10:16

knit web of predominantly native

10:18

English speaking hackers responsible for

10:20

the casino hacks and dozens

10:22

more. Their specialty is social

10:24

engineering. Part. Of their success

10:26

is because they are fluent in Western

10:28

culture. They know how are society works,

10:31

They. Know what to say to get someone to do simple.

10:34

Allison Nixon, his chief research

10:36

officer at Unit Twenty Two

10:38

One Be, a cyber security

10:40

firm that focuses on English

10:43

speaking cybercriminals. She says Scattered

10:45

Spider is just one of

10:47

many illicit hacking groups, all

10:50

part of a sprawling collection

10:52

of online criminals calling themselves

10:54

the Community or the Com.

10:57

The com is a subculture.

11:00

It is specifically in English speaking

11:02

to use some culture that has

11:04

arisen in the past few. Years.

11:07

It's. Very new, but

11:10

it's surprisingly disruptive. Members

11:12

of the com have hacked

11:14

into companies like Microsoft in

11:17

video and electronic Arts. Are

11:19

many people are involved. Years

11:21

ago it was maybe a

11:23

few hundred people, but says

11:25

twenty eight in the population

11:27

has exploded. Because. Of

11:29

that money coming in to these groups

11:32

and there's thousands of people involved at

11:34

this point. How are they connected? They

11:36

connect over the internet. Ah, Social spaces

11:39

where people hang out, Five.

11:41

Gaming Servers. It's almost

11:44

analysis to like. Maybe it's a back

11:46

alley where the. Bad kids

11:48

hang out but on the internet. Old

11:50

are we talking about? Males under the age

11:52

of twenty five. Hundred Twenty

11:55

Five, down to how

11:57

ya like? Thirteen Fourteen

11:59

involved? pulling off major crimes.

12:03

Members communicate and post pictures

12:05

on messaging apps like Telegram.

12:07

Their chatter, a toxic

12:10

stew of racism, sexism,

12:12

boasting about the money they've scanned

12:14

and how menacing they are. There

12:17

are these toxic online spaces where

12:19

young people can socialize and mingle

12:21

with criminals and gang members. And

12:24

the end result of all of

12:26

this is this online subculture has

12:29

formed that glorifies crime, that

12:32

measures one's personal worth by how

12:34

much harm they can cause the

12:36

world. Scattered Spider is one

12:38

of the most sophisticated offshoots of the

12:40

comm. Their criminal exploits

12:43

caught the attention of cybersecurity

12:45

companies and other hackers, including

12:49

the most notorious Russian ransomware

12:51

gang, Black Cat. They

12:54

saw the young native English-speaking

12:56

Westerners as a force multiplier.

12:58

Both claimed credit for the MGM

13:01

attack. Historically speaking,

13:03

Russian cybercriminals did not

13:05

like working with Western

13:08

cybercriminals. There was not

13:10

only a language barrier, but also they

13:13

kind of looked down on them and viewed them

13:16

as unprofessional. The Russian and

13:18

Western hackers met in the shadowy corners

13:20

of the dark web and

13:22

now are powerful partners in crime.

13:25

Scattered Spider uses its English

13:27

and social engineering skills to

13:29

break into Western companies' networks.

13:32

Black Cat provides its experience and

13:34

its malware used in some of

13:37

the most shocking ransomware attacks, including

13:41

the 2021 attack on Colonial

13:43

Pipeline, which caused gas shortages

13:45

up and down the East

13:47

Coast. And this

13:50

year's attack on UnitedHealth Group,

13:52

which disrupted pharmacies nationwide. The

13:55

State Department is offering a $15 million

13:57

reward for information on Russia.

13:59

Russia's Black Cat. John

14:05

DiMaggio, a former analyst at

14:07

the National Security Agency, now

14:09

investigates ransomware as chief security

14:11

strategist for the cybersecurity company

14:13

Analyst One. So there's a

14:15

term, it's called ransomware as

14:17

a service, that's been given

14:19

to the structure and

14:22

the format of these gangs. DiMaggio

14:24

says ransomware as a service has taken

14:27

the crime to a new level. The

14:30

long established Russian gangs like Black

14:32

Cat offer their services,

14:34

malware, experience negotiating ransoms and

14:36

laundering money to what they

14:38

call affiliates like Scattered Spider.

14:40

So in return, when a

14:42

victim pays an extortion, the

14:44

profit that comes from it

14:46

is now shared amongst those

14:48

criminals. The most successful Russian

14:50

gangs are run like legitimate

14:52

companies with easy to navigate

14:55

online platforms, 24-hour

14:57

service desks, even

14:59

human resources to hire software

15:01

developers. There are people

15:03

that specialize in developing malware and ransomware and

15:06

they're in very high demand. You

15:08

said you've gotten to know some of these people. Yes. Are

15:11

they mostly young men? The

15:13

leadership are people in their

15:15

40s, late 30s, other people

15:18

have got experience, the people that have a financial

15:20

background. DiMaggio says the

15:22

Russian government provides a safe

15:24

haven for ransomware gangs. As

15:27

long as they don't target an

15:29

organization that falls within Russia or

15:31

the former Soviet state, they don't

15:34

get prosecuted. It's not considered a

15:36

crime. It's not considered a crime

15:38

to attack American businesses.

15:41

It's crazy, right? That's

15:43

how it works though. So it's like they

15:45

operate with impunity. A hundred percent. But that's

15:47

the whole reason why this is such a

15:49

popular crime. Russian Ransomware

15:51

has become such a threat, the

15:54

elite cyber warriors at the National

15:56

Security Agency have joined the fight.

16:00

Hiring last month those robbed choice

16:02

was Nss Director of Cyber Security

16:04

over. he told us the Colonial

16:06

Pipeline attack was a wake up

16:08

call. It caused us to step

16:10

back and decide that we had

16:12

to put more resources into this

16:14

foreign threat. So one of the

16:16

things and essay has we have

16:18

hackers. And. It really at

16:20

times takes a hacker to defeat a

16:23

hacker. That's. The value and

16:25

a say can bring his. We can

16:27

identify people specific people involved in some

16:29

of these activities. Vienna

16:33

see helped identify the Russian

16:36

hackers responsible for the Colonial

16:38

Pipeline attack, and in January

16:40

Twenty twenty two. After months

16:43

of negotiations, Russia arrested him

16:45

and other accomplices, but five

16:47

weeks later, it all came

16:50

on done. Following the

16:52

Ukraine invasion, those people were let out

16:54

a job so they're back in business

16:56

as. And now they've

16:59

teamed up with the young native

17:01

English speakers of Scattered Spider. The

17:03

Sb eyes Brian were injured and

17:05

calls it an evolution of cybercrime.

17:07

Know in the case of Scatters

17:09

Spider is a powerful that they

17:11

are with Black Hat. Of course.

17:13

I think that it's important to

17:15

know that we are. Against

17:18

a very capable set of adversaries.

17:20

They're very good at their work.

17:22

were also very good at our

17:25

work. In January, the Bureau arrested

17:27

a nineteen year old from Florida,

17:29

Noah Urban, charged with stealing crypto

17:31

currencies. These pleaded not guilty. Cyber

17:35

investigators have tied him to scattered

17:37

spiders, but so far not to

17:39

the casino heists. The scattered spider

17:42

hackers who did pull off the

17:44

attacks are still on line, hiding

17:46

in plain sight, In

17:48

unholy alliance with Russians,

17:50

Alison Nixon cause Las

17:53

Vegas a harbinger. The

17:55

level of cyber crime has risen to the

17:57

point. Where it feels over.

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Rushdie has been a marked man for nearly

19:51

half his life. In. nineteen eighty

19:53

nine irans leader ayatollah khomeini

19:55

declared his novel the satanic

19:57

verses blasphemous an insult islam

20:00

and called for the Indian-born rider's

20:02

assassination. Rushdie went

20:04

into hiding with around-the-clock police protection for

20:06

10 years. He eventually moved

20:09

to the U.S. and thought he was safe.

20:11

But in August 2022, as he was

20:14

about to speak at a literary festival

20:16

in Chautauqua, New York, Salman Rushdie

20:18

was attacked by a Muslim man with a

20:20

knife. Rushdie, who's now

20:22

76, lost his right eye

20:24

and came close to dying. He's

20:27

come to terms with the attempt on

20:29

his life by writing a book about

20:31

it called, simply, Knife, which comes out

20:34

Tuesday. This is his first

20:36

television interview since the attack. You

20:39

had had a dream, two

20:41

days I think it was, before the attack. What

20:44

was the dream? I kind of had a premonition.

20:46

I mean, I had a dream of being attacked

20:49

in an amphitheater. But it was

20:51

a kind of Roman Empire dream, you know.

20:53

As if I was in

20:55

the Coliseum, and it was just somebody with a

20:58

spear stabbing downwards, and I was rolling around on

21:00

the floor trying to get away from

21:02

him. And I woke up and

21:04

was quite shaken by it. And

21:06

I had to go to Chautauqua, you know. And I

21:09

said to my wife, Eliza, I said, you know, I

21:11

don't want to go. Because of the dream. Because

21:13

of the dream. And then I thought, don't be silly, it's a

21:16

dream. Salman Rushdie, one

21:18

of his generation's most acclaimed riders,

21:20

had been invited to the tranquil

21:22

town of Chautauqua on Lake Erie

21:24

to speak about a subject he

21:26

knows all too well, the importance

21:28

of protecting riders whose lives are

21:30

under threat. Did you

21:33

have any anxiety being in such a

21:35

public space? Not really, because

21:37

in the more than 20 years

21:39

that I've been living in America, I've

21:42

done a lot of

21:44

these things. You haven't had security around you of

21:46

close protection detail for a long time. But

21:48

you know, what happens in many places that

21:50

you go and lecture is that they're used

21:53

to having a certain degree

21:55

of security, venue security. In

21:57

this case, there wasn't any. you

22:00

were there to talk about writers in danger.

22:02

Yeah, exactly. And the need for writers from

22:05

other countries to have safe spaces in

22:07

America amongst other places. And then, yeah, it just turned

22:09

out not to be a safe space for me.

22:13

For years, no place was safe for

22:15

Salman Rushdie, whose sprawling 600-page

22:17

novel The Satanic Verses offended

22:20

some Muslims for its depiction of the

22:22

Prophet Muhammad. Iran's

22:25

Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa,

22:27

a religious decree calling for

22:29

Rushdie's death in 1989. There

22:35

were worldwide protests from London to Lahore. The

22:38

Satanic Verses was burned and 12 people died

22:40

in clashes with police. The

22:43

book's Japanese translator was murdered, and

22:46

others associated with it were attacked. Did

22:48

you have any idea that it would cause

22:51

violence? No, I had no idea. I thought

22:53

probably some conservative religious people wouldn't like it,

22:55

but they didn't like anything I wrote anyway.

22:58

So I thought, well, they don't have to read it.

23:01

Were you naive? Probably. You

23:03

know, it's easy looking back to people,

23:05

but nothing like this would ever happen to

23:07

anybody. And of course, almost all the

23:09

people who attacked the book did so without reading

23:11

it. I

23:13

was often told that I had intended to insult a

23:16

fan of people. My view was, if I need to

23:18

insult you, I can do it really quickly. I

23:21

don't need to spend five years of my life trying

23:23

to write a 600-page book. Rushdie

23:28

was living in London when he went into hiding, and

23:31

for the next 10 years, the British government

23:33

provided him with 24-hour police protection. Did

23:36

people try to kill you? Yes. There were

23:38

maybe as many as half a dozen serious

23:41

assassination attempts, which were not

23:43

random people. They were state-sponsored terrorism

23:45

professionals. After

23:47

diplomatic negotiations, the Iranian state called

23:49

off its assassins in 1998. Rushdie

23:53

finally came out of the shadows. He

23:56

moved to New York, and for the next two decades,

23:58

lived openly. He was. a

24:00

man about town. He continued

24:02

writing, became a celebrated advocate for

24:04

freedom of expression. So

24:07

when he received the invitation to

24:09

speak in Chautauqua in August 2022,

24:11

he gladly accepted. I was

24:13

seated at stage right. In his

24:16

new book, Knife, he describes what happened

24:18

next. Then in the corner of

24:20

my right eye, the last thing my

24:22

right eye would ever see, I saw

24:24

the man in black running towards me down

24:27

the right-hand side of the seating area. Black

24:29

clothes, black face mask. He was coming

24:31

in hard and low. A squat

24:34

missile. I confess I

24:36

had sometimes imagined my assassin

24:39

rising up in some public forum or

24:41

other and coming for me in

24:43

just this way. So

24:45

my first thought when I saw this murderous

24:47

shape rushing towards me was, so

24:50

it's you. Here

24:52

you are. So

24:54

it's you, here you are. Yeah. It's

24:56

like you've been waiting for it. Yeah, that's

24:58

what it felt like. It felt like something coming out

25:00

of the distant past and trying

25:03

to drag me back in time, if you

25:05

like, back into that distant past in

25:07

order to kill me. And when he got to

25:09

me, he basically hit me very hard

25:12

here. And initially

25:15

I thought I'd been punched. You

25:17

didn't actually see a knife. I didn't see the knife. And

25:20

I didn't realize until I saw blood

25:22

coming out that there would be a

25:24

knife in his fist. So where was

25:26

that stab? Here. In your neck? In

25:28

my neck, yeah. Then there were a

25:30

lot more. The worst wounds, there was

25:32

a big slash wound like this across

25:35

my neck. And there's a puncture

25:37

stab wound here. And

25:40

then of course there was an attack on my eye. Do

25:42

you remember being stabbed in

25:44

the eye? No. I

25:47

remember falling. Then I

25:49

remembered not knowing what had happened to my eye.

25:51

He was also stabbed in his hand, chest,

25:54

abdomen and thigh. 15 wounds

25:57

in all. He was

25:59

both stabbing. I think

26:01

he was just wildly... The

26:03

attack lasted 27 seconds

26:05

to feel just how long that is. This

26:08

is what 27 seconds is. How

26:30

long did the attack last? That's

26:37

it. That's quite a long

26:39

time. That's the extraordinary

26:42

half-minute of intimacy in

26:45

which life meets death. What

26:49

stopped it from being longer? The

26:51

audience pulling him off me. Strangers, do you... I

26:53

don't... To this day, I don't know their names.

26:56

Some of those strangers restrained the

26:58

attacker, while others desperately tried to

27:00

stem the flow of Rushdie's blood.

27:03

There was really a lot of blood. You were actually

27:05

watching your blood. I was actually watching it spread. And

27:08

then I remember thinking that I was probably

27:10

dying. And it was interesting

27:12

because it was quite a matter of fact.

27:14

It wasn't like I was terrified of it

27:17

or whatever. And yeah, there was

27:19

nothing. No heavenly choirs. No

27:21

pearly gates. I mean, I'm not a supernatural person,

27:23

you know. I believe that death comes

27:25

as the end. There

27:28

was nothing that happened that made me change my

27:30

mind about that. You have not had a revelation.

27:32

I have not had any revelation, except that there's

27:34

no revelation to be had. His

27:37

attacker, the man in black, was hustled off

27:39

the stage. In

27:42

the book, you do not use the attacker's

27:44

name. Yeah. I thought, you know, I

27:47

don't want his name in my book. And I don't use

27:49

it in conversation either. But that is

27:51

important to you, not to give him space in your brain. Yeah.

27:54

He and I had 27 seconds together. You

27:57

know, that's it. I don't need

27:59

to give him any more of that. of my time. Paramedics

28:02

flew Rushdie to a hospital in Erie,

28:05

Pennsylvania, 40 miles away, where a team

28:07

of doctors battled for eight hours to

28:09

save his life. When he finally came

28:12

out of surgery, his wife, Eliza, a

28:14

poet and novelist, was waiting. And

28:16

he wasn't moving, and he was just

28:18

laid out. He looked half dead

28:20

to you. Yes, he did. He

28:23

was a different color. He

28:25

was cold. I mean, his face was

28:28

stapled, just staples holding

28:30

his face together. Rushdie

28:33

was on a ventilator, unable to

28:35

speak. Eliza and the doctors

28:37

had no idea whether the knife that

28:39

had penetrated his eye had damaged his

28:41

brain. Someone from the

28:44

staff said that

28:46

we would use this system of wiggling the

28:48

toes. To communicate. To communicate. Do

28:50

you remember the first question you asked, to get

28:52

a wiggle, or? I think I said,

28:54

Salman, it's Eliza. Can you hear me? And

28:58

there was a wiggle. And

29:01

asked him, I think, do you know

29:03

where you are? And wiggled.

29:07

And it was very basic, simple

29:09

questions. You can't express yourself with

29:11

any subtlety with your toes. Which

29:14

is your favorite thing. After

29:18

18 days in the hospital

29:20

and three weeks in rehab, Rushdie

29:22

was discharged. One

29:25

of the surgeons who had saved

29:27

my life said to me, first you were really

29:29

unlucky, and then you were really lucky. I

29:32

said, what's the lucky part? And he

29:34

said, well, the lucky part is that the man who attacked

29:36

you had no idea how to kill a man with a

29:38

knife. You're not a believer in miracles.

29:41

But the fact that you survived, you write in the book,

29:43

is a miracle. This is

29:45

a contradiction. How does

29:47

somebody who doesn't believe in the supernatural account

29:50

for the fact that something has happened which feels like

29:52

a miracle? I certainly don't feel

29:54

that some hand reached down from the skies

29:57

and guarded me. But I do think something

29:59

has happened. happened which wasn't supposed to

30:01

happen. And I have no explanation

30:03

for it. His attacker

30:05

was a 24-year-old from New Jersey who

30:07

lived in his mother's basement. He's

30:10

believed to be a lone wolf. He's

30:12

pleaded not guilty to attempted murder and

30:14

is awaiting trial. In an

30:16

interview, he told the New York Post he'd

30:18

only read a couple pages of the Satanic

30:21

verses and seen some clips of Rushdie on

30:23

YouTube. He said he didn't

30:25

like him very much because Rushdie

30:27

had attacked Islam. Does

30:29

it matter to you what his motive was?

30:32

I mean, it's interesting to me because

30:34

it's a mystery. If I had written

30:37

a character who knew

30:39

so little about his proposed victim and

30:41

yet was willing to commit the crime

30:43

of murder, my publishers

30:45

might well say to me that that's undermotivated. You need

30:47

to develop that character better. Yeah, not enough of a

30:50

reason. Not convincing. But

30:53

yet that's what he did. Rushdie's

30:56

knife, his 20-second book, is one

30:58

he initially did not want to

31:00

write. That was the last thing I wanted to

31:02

do. Because you didn't want this

31:04

to yet again define you? Yeah. It

31:06

was very difficult for me after the Satanic verses was

31:09

published that the only thing anybody knew about me was

31:11

this death threat. But it became clear to me

31:13

that I couldn't write anything else. You had to

31:15

write this first. I had to write this first.

31:18

I just thought, you know, I need to focus

31:20

on, you know, to use the

31:22

cliché, the elephant in the room. And I

31:24

thought that kind of something changed in

31:26

my head. And it then became

31:28

a book I really very much wanted to write.

31:30

You say the language was my knife. If

31:33

I had unexpectedly been caught in an unwanted knife

31:35

fight, maybe this was the knife I could use

31:37

to fight back, to take charge of what had

31:39

happened to me, to own it, make it mine.

31:41

Yeah, I mean, language is

31:45

a way of breaking

31:47

open the world. I don't

31:49

have any other weapons, but I've been using this particular

31:51

tool for quite a long time. So

31:54

I thought this was my way of dealing with it. It's

31:57

been almost two years since the attack

31:59

and Rushdie is back home now in

32:01

New York, slowly getting used to navigating the

32:04

world with one eye. How much time did

32:06

it take to kind of readjust? I'm still

32:08

doing it. You still are? Yeah.

32:11

Do you feel like you are a different person

32:13

after the attack? I don't feel I'm very different,

32:15

but I do feel that it has less shadow.

32:17

I think that shadow is just there. And

32:20

some days it's dark and

32:22

some days it's not. You feel less than

32:24

you were before? No, I just

32:26

feel more the presence of death. In

32:29

an interview almost 25 years ago, you said of

32:31

the Fatwa, I want to find an end to

32:33

this story. It is the one story I must

32:35

find an end to. Have you found that

32:37

ending and an ending to this story as well?

32:39

Well, I thought I had and then turned out I hadn't. I'm

32:42

hoping this is just a last

32:44

twitch of that story.

32:51

I don't know. I'll

32:53

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rocketmoney.com/Wondery. There's

35:00

the Loch Ness Monster in Scotland and

35:02

in the Himalayas there's the Yeti, the

35:05

abominable snowman. In Tasmania, a

35:07

teardrop of an island under the

35:09

eye of the Australian mainland, there's

35:11

the Thylacine, a creature that

35:13

brings out folklore and folks armed

35:15

with grainy images convinced they've seen

35:17

the thing. But unlike

35:20

other mythical creatures, the

35:22

Thylacine or Tasmanian tiger

35:24

actually indisputably existed. An

35:26

apex predator the size of a small

35:28

wolf roamed the island as recently as

35:30

last century, which gives hope

35:32

to so many obsessives, dreamers, and true

35:35

believers looking for the Tasmanian tiger in

35:37

the bush and, as you'll see,

35:39

in the lab. This is a

35:41

story that says as much about human nature

35:43

as it does nature nature, further

35:45

proof that even in the face

35:48

of science and logic, passion survives

35:50

in the wild just fine. You've

35:54

been doing this how many years now? I've been doing

35:56

this for over 30 years and... Every

36:00

day's an adventure. Alright, here

36:02

we go. Getting

36:06

there wasn't easy, but Adrian

36:09

Richo Richardson, a retired military

36:11

man turned self-declared tiger seeker,

36:13

retraced his steps. Tramping

36:16

around the dense outback of Tasmania on January

36:18

28, 2017, 12.45 p.m., he heard the sound.

36:24

And then all of a sudden was this

36:26

mighty howl like this. Oh! Oh,

36:31

it was gobsmacked. The hairs on

36:33

my arm and my neck stood

36:36

on end. And as that

36:38

call finished, another one come from

36:40

the other side of the forestry track. Another

36:43

howl like that. What

36:45

does Alan sound like? Exactly like... Arrrrr! Richo

36:49

craned his neck but saw no

36:51

creature. Still, he's sure of what

36:54

it was, a Tasmanian tiger. The

36:57

whole environment went

36:59

quiet for about a minute. It

37:01

was an unbelievable feeling. I just can't

37:04

explain it. Yeah, you're still emotional

37:06

talking about this. Look, I

37:08

don't remember that call for the time I died. And

37:11

then I had to try and prove to

37:14

others what I've heard. When he

37:16

returned to his home in Hobart, Tasmania's

37:18

capital, he didn't go down to the

37:20

pub to share his account. No, he

37:22

took to his desk and stayed up

37:25

writing a detailed report flush with 22

37:27

footnotes. But

37:29

my passion is it's the father scene. I

37:32

know it's there. And this only reinforced

37:34

your faith. Oh! Without a

37:36

doubt. One slight hitch,

37:38

one crimp on the barbie, as it were.

37:42

The creature Richo described so vividly and

37:44

breathlessly, it was declared extinct

37:46

almost 40 years ago. Thought,

37:49

McGill, maybe it's a dingo. Maybe

37:51

it's a wolf. In Tasmania, we

37:53

do not have anything remotely like

37:55

it. We do not even have

37:58

wild dogs in any form. He

38:00

only their of thing we have

38:03

around here is t of the

38:05

cats are the gears and reckon

38:07

that noise you know layers. I

38:09

didn't have the Tasmanian tiger rome

38:11

these parts for thousands of years.

38:14

more wolfson tiger he was is

38:16

a marsupial weighing about fifty five

38:18

pounds. The Tasmanian tiger is distinguished

38:20

by the sprites amazon zip file.

38:22

It was also a carnival that

38:24

preyed on farmer see recalling the

38:27

fate of the wolf of the

38:29

American west. Around the same time

38:31

the local government paid out found

38:33

these two hunters presenting carcasses by

38:35

the mid ninety thirties that has

38:37

a tiger population had dwindled to

38:39

one. Tap. David Hobart Boomers

38:41

Zoo where it died in Nineteen

38:43

Thirty Six. With

38:45

the required fifty years the lapsing

38:48

without a confirmed sighting, the tiger

38:50

was put on the extinct list

38:52

in Nineteen Eighty Six. Yet putting

38:54

the media in Tasmania, the search

38:56

became a national obsession. In the

38:58

Tasmanian Tiger know the Tasmanian devil

39:00

became sort of local master. It's

39:03

image adorns has made his coat

39:06

of arms and Matilda. Here's the

39:08

Islands current license. Local

39:12

watering holes the regulars put down there

39:14

cause he tiger beer long enough to

39:16

tell you big seen the animal or

39:18

know someone who has also very hill

39:20

the torture for forty seconds or him.

39:23

We need. Mooney was a full

39:26

time Hobart biologist. It felt to

39:28

him to investigate the various Tasmanian

39:30

tiger account. Now in retirement he's

39:32

the islands on Arbiter or know

39:35

Several people have got clusters of

39:37

cameras and very remote areas. Serviced

39:41

remotely by set lot

39:43

and who. Don't

39:45

check on the cameras with their own helicopter.

39:49

Or sorts of things have moved way

39:51

beyond the guy with binoculars saying. That

39:54

think I may have seen some with of are

39:56

absolutely. He. Can help notice

39:58

no one ever played. Cool

40:00

the clear image. Still, Reported

40:02

sightings com by the thousands.

40:05

Have you ever gotten a report or

40:07

ever looked into something as gave you

40:10

a little paws guess are sometimes. People.

40:13

Are dead accurate with the

40:15

times, the places they distances

40:18

and that. Very good naturalists

40:20

often don't exaggerate. Lotta take

40:22

their schools very seriously and

40:24

and it's very hard to

40:26

say to those people are

40:28

dancing Soros, Homicide for the

40:30

Devoted Army. As seekers, the

40:32

investment isn't just one of

40:34

hope in time. each year

40:36

Ritual spends. I'm more then

40:38

he tears to admit. Dollars

40:40

on thrill can batteries alone?

40:42

How much money. The. Something to

40:44

the success of sir has wouldn't

40:46

last. Speculate And please

40:48

don't tell my wife. Was

40:51

record our secret at our sacred floss.

40:53

Us and our guys. Don't

40:56

his head on. Don't. Know

40:59

about that one. Can I stop

41:01

that month later? That one? I've

41:03

done a success in the bush.

41:05

We met another enthusiast, Chris Roberts,

41:07

who flies down from mainland Australia

41:09

in approaches the search in a

41:12

manner of a Cs I detective

41:14

far from the cameras. I guess

41:16

you've been scouring for. Prints.

41:19

For even who, everything stats

41:21

for Princess A Big one

41:24

and I have found a

41:26

series of eighteen nineteen individual

41:28

steps in a track line

41:30

that. Are. An excellent math

41:32

but has it or not only are

41:34

they an excellent match, the quality of

41:36

the prince is precisely what gets keep

41:39

an eye out ticket out there with

41:41

the animal. Been adding some gifts and

41:43

calls is either zero or even fracking

41:45

collective. Riccio was part of the booth

41:47

richardson Tiger T, I think the join

41:49

his aunts with a new design. Store

41:53

size which made worldwide news and

41:55

Twenty seventeen after calling a press

41:57

conference to announce the site. But

42:00

when they provided this image as proof,

42:02

Nick Moody assisted as a chance but

42:04

not an official confirmation. What is the

42:07

middle ground? You can be right, you

42:09

can be lying, or are you can

42:11

have an illusion. And there's all sorts

42:13

of ways that my memory it can

42:16

be. Affected

42:18

by time I've had lots of

42:21

talks with psychiatrist and x detectives

42:23

kind of cigarettes as he really.

42:25

Often have to make a choice. a personal

42:28

call in the end to with that tell

42:30

them their the wrong in their mind is

42:32

deceiving them. Oh he can tell them that

42:34

because you don't know. essentially see worth a

42:36

dime us ritual when all the other suitors

42:39

will have to wait long, cebu even have

42:41

to go into the bush if a group

42:43

of second best years and biologists deliver on

42:45

their go. Into. Pass counts

42:47

himself among the Tassie tiger trance

42:50

thing he comes to the quest

42:52

though arm not with binoculars but

42:54

a microscope in his tiger lamb.

42:57

Envision that day when you're you're not

42:59

just wearing a lot of heads. Yeah,

43:01

hundred percent. I think about it all

43:03

the time, but it would be like

43:05

to be in that landscape. And this

43:07

is the man walking past in the

43:09

books. And actual one rather than a

43:11

crappy photograph. Tell us exactly what you're

43:13

doing. Be can't magically bring the Tasmanian

43:15

Tiger back. We have to start with

43:17

a living cell and then ends in

43:19

near our falling back into existence. To

43:21

the way you do that is, he

43:23

finds the closest living relative to your

43:25

animal that has gone extinct. And

43:27

for ruff that is a small marsupial

43:29

species called the Fat Tailed Dumb Ass

43:31

Down off. The developmental

43:33

biologist at the University of

43:35

Melbourne task is reece fifty

43:38

million dollars would be extinction

43:40

project that recalls Jurassic Park

43:42

in partnership with American company

43:44

Colossal by of Sciences which

43:46

towns wait for It's Leonardo

43:48

Dicaprio, Paris Hilton and even

43:50

the Cia among it's backers.

43:53

He's. Adamant Hill replicate the genome of

43:55

a donor a mouse like marsupial in

43:57

turn it into a much larger. The

44:00

tiger. Will. Let him

44:02

explain. We. Examine all of it's

44:04

the and I. We. Compare that. To

44:06

the dna of your extinct species with

44:09

as many anti us and we look

44:11

at everywhere the thugs to genome so

44:13

those two piles of the and I

44:15

if you like a difference and once

44:17

you've identified to both differences it's just

44:20

a matter of then going in and

44:22

making all of those edits to turn

44:24

your settled down up seen Imo fell

44:26

into a fall of thing cells and

44:28

you're saying that Donner done Blue Blue

44:31

Field Mouse Marsupial Dollars is closer than

44:33

say that Tasmanian Double but that little

44:35

done at ease. Of ferocious Carnival. Even

44:37

though it's very, very small on and

44:39

it's a very good surrogate for us

44:41

to be able to do what was

44:43

his. it is again. a native of

44:46

Minnesota, Chris Hogan is director of the

44:48

Australian Museum Research Institute in Sydney. He

44:50

understands the push to eat stinks it

44:52

as a tiger. As is

44:54

one of my favorite mammals

44:56

really and I love all

44:58

males. I am a mammal

45:00

guy. This is a special

45:02

special animal. He. Took us

45:04

upstairs who is lab to show

45:07

us why Services. Tasmanian

45:09

Tiger of the nineteenth century See

45:11

the stripes, see the six tail.

45:13

See this gaping mouth with the

45:15

sharp teeth. What do you make

45:17

of this? The extinction. Effort

45:20

with respect to the Tasmanian tiger and

45:22

I would be the first person to

45:24

line up to see this animal is

45:26

it could be somehow brought back from

45:28

excessive. That said hill good

45:30

news the skin gently explaining

45:32

that wishing cause he tigers

45:34

were running rampant doesn't overcome

45:36

science. The. Idea that you could

45:38

ask for. Tweak, The

45:40

dna of this mouse sized

45:42

animal. Into. making this

45:44

apex predator of Australia.

45:47

Stretches imagination in many

45:50

different ways. This isn't

45:52

impossible. Project. We all

45:55

of optimism. We all have innovation. What they're

45:57

saying is we're going to modify the genome

45:59

of it. art to create a

46:01

genetically modified dun art that might look

46:03

a bit more like a thylacine. Maybe

46:05

we'll be able to tweak it genetically

46:07

and it gets a bit bigger. Maybe

46:10

we'll be able to tweak it genetically and

46:12

it has some stripes on it. But there's

46:14

about a thousand and one steps

46:16

in between. Helgid has thought

46:18

about the source of the current Tassie Tiger

46:20

passion and wonders how much of it

46:23

is driven by remorse. It's

46:25

a special symbol about Australia and

46:27

about what we've lost. We've

46:30

had a lot of extinctions here in

46:32

the last hundred, two hundred years.

46:35

Thirty mammals alone. So

46:37

in the United States only one

46:39

or two mammal species have disappeared

46:41

entirely. So why are people taking

46:43

this seriously and why are people

46:45

investing so much in this? So

46:47

many people have dream if

46:49

we could just get this animal

46:52

back. Maybe it would help us think

46:54

different about extinction or the guilt that

46:56

we might feel of having removed such

46:58

a special animal from the planet. Whether

47:01

they imagine it might be still

47:03

hiding in Tasmania or in a

47:05

lab to be reborn, there's

47:07

this burning hope. Richo

47:10

reckons that if his countrymen in

47:12

the DNA sequencing labs can resurrect

47:14

a Tassie Tiger, good on him.

47:17

But regardless, he'll continue coming here.

47:21

Faith unshaken, he's certain this animal

47:23

most famous for being extinct is

47:25

not extinct at all. If

47:28

someone accused you of being obsessed, would

47:30

you please guilty? Sir, I've got my hand

47:32

up to that. Your honor, I am

47:35

guilty. You're a Tasmanian tiger obsessive. I

47:37

am indeed. It's been my love. Why

47:40

is that? Why have you continued to search so

47:42

long for this? I just know

47:44

it's there. I do. In my

47:46

own heart, I know it's there. And

47:49

if it isn't there, well,

47:51

we say what's the harm in searching. Coming

47:55

to the planet's sub-basement, bush bashing

47:57

this gorgeous terrain, there

47:59

are worse ways and places

48:02

to spend your days. Delve

48:10

into the shadows of the mind

48:12

with Sleeping Dogs, a gripping

48:14

murder mystery, starring Academy Award

48:17

winner Russell Crowe. Now available

48:19

on digital, Crowe portrays

48:22

an ex-homicide detective unraveling

48:24

a brutal murder he

48:26

can't recall. Uncovering secrets

48:28

from his past, he

48:30

learns a chilling truth.

48:33

It's best to let

48:35

Sleeping Dogs lie. Visit

48:37

sleepingdogsmovie.com/Wondery to watch Sleeping

48:39

Dogs, now on digital. That's

48:43

sleepingdogsmovie.com/Wondery. What

48:48

makes a life a good one? Visit

48:51

the adventure you have. Or

48:54

the friends you find along the way. Maybe

48:56

it's pursuing new passion while

48:58

striving to protect, defend, and save

49:01

what you believe in every single

49:03

day. What

49:06

makes a life a good one?

49:08

In the Coast Guard, we think

49:10

it's all of the above and

49:12

more, but you'll have to find

49:14

out for yourself. Visit gocoastguard.com to

49:16

learn more. Now,

49:23

the last minute of 60 Minutes. Now

49:27

an update on our story from

49:29

November about the Social Security Administration

49:32

demanding repayment from people the agency

49:34

has mistakenly overpaid, sometimes years or

49:36

even decades ago. Last

49:39

month, Social Security Commissioner Martin O'Malley

49:41

told the Senate hearing he's making

49:43

some changes. Many

49:45

of you probably saw the television

49:48

journalism piece done by 60

49:50

Minutes highlighting the injustice that we

49:53

do to Americans when

49:55

through no fault of their own we overpay them

49:57

and then claw back in a rather brutal and

49:59

summery way. way, 100% of

50:02

their check. Social

50:05

Security will now withhold no more than 10% of

50:08

the monthly payment and make it easier

50:10

for beneficiaries to request a waiver. I'm

50:13

Anderson Cooper. We'll be back next week

50:15

with another edition of 60 Minutes. Prime

50:21

members, you can listen to 60 Minutes

50:23

ad-free on Amazon Music. Download

50:26

the Amazon Music app today

50:28

or you can listen ad-free

50:30

with Wondery Plus and Apple

50:32

Podcasts. Before you go,

50:34

tell us about yourself by

50:37

completing a short survey at

50:39

wondery.com/survey. What kind of fun

50:41

is waiting for you at Kings Island? The

50:44

holy cow are way too high and here comes the

50:46

drop kind of fun. The fish is

50:49

splashing all summer kind of

50:51

fun. Thank you for the

50:53

free social intake. Let's get

50:55

another kind of fun. But

50:57

most importantly at Kings

51:00

Island, you'll find some fun of it

51:02

kind of fun. Don't wait to start

51:04

your fun this season. Kings Island opens

51:06

its gates April 20th. In

51:10

the 1980s, Frank Faryon was riding high

51:12

as a successful German music producer, but

51:14

he was bored. German

51:17

pop was formulaic, dull and

51:19

oh so white. Frank had been...