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1:00

November 6th at Indochino.com.

1:03

That's

1:03

I-N-D-O-C-H-I-N-O

1:06

dot com. I'm CBS News correspondent

1:09

Major Garrett, host of the podcast Agent

1:11

of Betrayal, the double life of Robert Hansen.

1:14

During the Cold War, FBI agent Robert

1:16

Hansen traded classified secrets to

1:18

the Kremlin in exchange for cash and jewels.

1:20

In the podcast, you'll hear from Hansen's

1:22

closest friends, family members, victims, and

1:24

colleagues for the most comprehensive telling of

1:27

who Robert Hansen really was. Binge

1:29

the entire series now. Agent of Betrayal,

1:31

the double life of Robert Hansen, is available on

1:33

the Wondery app, Amazon Music,

1:35

or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:45

Ukraine has documented cases of more than 19,000

1:48

children abducted by Russia during the

1:50

war. But they worry the actual

1:52

number is closer to 300,000 children. We

1:57

wanted to know how Russia was doing it and

1:59

what was happening.

1:59

to Ukraine's missing children. My

2:02

husband's gone. I'm

2:05

sorry. I'm sorry.

2:08

60 Minutes followed one brave grandmother's mission to

2:10

rescue her grandson from the Russians.

2:13

I'm sorry. What? It

2:18

was America's deadliest wildfire in 100 years.

2:21

At least 99 people were killed, 2,000 homes

2:24

and businesses destroyed. Tonight,

2:27

we'll explain what happened on the island of Maui. Your

2:29

engine was right there. Yep, right there. And

2:33

you'll hear an amazing rescue story from inside

2:35

the inferno. We

2:38

can't teach that kind of heroism.

2:46

So you are Bruce Springsteen's best friend,

2:50

his underboss. Don't get me wrong.

2:53

You also had a breakout role as Tony Soprano's

2:55

most trusted advisor.

2:57

Who has this life? Little

2:59

Stephen Van Zandt. I don't want to liken Bruce

3:01

Springsteen to a mob boss. You'd had that

3:03

experience. You'd done that drill.

3:05

You knew what it was like to be the... I know those

3:08

dynamics, okay? I know being the only

3:10

guy who's not afraid

3:12

to tell the boss the truth.

3:16

I'm Leslie Stahl. I'm Bill

3:18

Whittaker. I'm Anderson Cooper. I'm

3:20

Sharon Alfonsi. I'm John Wertheim.

3:23

I'm Cecilia Vega. I'm Scott Pelley. Those

3:25

stories and more tonight on

3:27

this special 90-minute edition

3:30

of 60 Minutes.

3:55

Book your appointment today for Indochino's

3:57

Black Friday event, starting in-store and

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online. November 6th at Indochino.com.

4:02

That's I-N-D-O-C-H-I-N-O

4:05

dot com.

4:07

Hi, it's me, the

4:09

Grand Poobah of Bahumbug, the

4:11

OG Green Grump, the Grinch. From

4:14

Wondery, Tiz the Grinch Holiday Talk

4:16

Show is a pathetic attempt by the people of Whoville

4:19

to use my situation as

4:20

a teachable moment. So join

4:23

me,

4:23

the Grinch, along with Cindy

4:25

Lou Who, Hello everyone. and of course my

4:27

dog, Max, every week

4:29

for this complete waste of time. Listen

4:32

as I launch a campaign against Christmas

4:34

cheer, grilling celebrity guests like

4:37

chestnuts on an open fire. I'll

4:39

try to get my heart to grow a few sizes, but

4:41

it's not gonna work, honey. Your family

4:43

will love the show. As you know, I'm

4:45

famously great with kids. Follow Tiz

4:47

the Grinch Holiday Talk Show on the Wondery app or

4:50

wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to

4:52

Tiz the Grinch Holiday Talk Show early

4:53

and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+.

5:01

It's impossible

5:03

for Ukrainian families to shield their children

5:06

from the constant violence

5:07

of Russia's war.

5:09

But tonight we'll tell you about a lesser known

5:11

and perhaps more sinister danger they face,

5:14

the Russian abduction of Ukrainian children.

5:17

In the chaos of war, exact numbers are

5:19

hard to come by.

5:20

Officially, the Ukrainian government has

5:22

documented more than 19,000 children taken by Russia,

5:27

but told us they worry the actual number

5:29

could be closer to 300,000 children. The

5:33

International Criminal Court has charged Russian

5:35

President Vladimir Putin and his Commissioner

5:37

for Children's Rights with the war crimes

5:40

of unlawful deportation and transfer

5:42

of children. This summer, we

5:44

followed one Ukrainian grandmother on

5:46

an undercover mission, deep into

5:48

enemy territory to find her grandson

5:51

before he completely disappeared.

5:59

Porina packed what little she

6:01

could and caught a 20-hour train

6:04

from Poland to Kiev to meet with a nonprofit

6:06

called Save Ukraine. They

6:09

promised to help her find 9-year-old Nikita.

6:12

She traveled light but carried the weight

6:15

of a grandmother's worry.

6:17

He means everything

6:19

to me. He's my air, my sky,

6:22

my water. I live

6:23

for him. He's my life. I

6:26

love him very much. Porina,

6:28

who asked us not to use her last

6:31

name, is in the process of filing

6:33

for guardianship of her grandson.

6:35

She left Ukraine so she could work

6:37

to support Nikita, who has special

6:39

needs. The

6:42

Russian Federation stole him. They

6:44

abducted him. Did the Russians

6:47

ask anyone for permission

6:50

to move Nikita? Did they tell

6:52

anyone they were moving him?

6:54

No. No, they didn't tell anyone

6:56

anything.

6:57

They simply removed him and

6:59

hid him.

7:01

Last October, Nikita was living in a boarding

7:03

school for disabled children when

7:06

the Russian authorities ordered all 86

7:08

kids there to be transferred deeper into

7:10

Russian-controlled territory.

7:12

I came home after work. I

7:15

opened Instagram, and there was a picture

7:17

of my child, Nikita. With

7:20

a caption, Russia is taking children.

7:24

Polina says the Russians played a cruel

7:26

game of hide-and-seek, moving

7:28

Nikita at least three times in eight

7:30

months, including to an orphanage

7:32

in Russia.

7:33

What were those eight months like for you? Really

7:37

bad. Really bad. I

7:39

wouldn't sleep at night. I

7:42

didn't want to go to work. I

7:45

didn't even want to live because

7:47

I had no one to live for. And

7:51

then I found this website Save

7:53

Ukraine on Facebook,

7:55

and I called them.

8:00

The phones never seemed to stop

8:02

ringing at the Save Ukraine headquarters

8:04

in Kiev. So

8:07

far, they've rescued more than 200 kids,

8:11

from kindergartners to teenagers.

8:13

We met the founder, Mikola

8:16

Kuleba, at one of Save Ukraine's shelters

8:18

for reunited families.

8:20

How long do the families stay here?

8:22

Up to three months.

8:24

Kuleba served as Ukraine's presidential

8:26

commissioner for children's

8:27

rights for nearly eight years. Now,

8:31

he runs these secret rescue missions,

8:33

which rely on an underground

8:35

network of safehouses and volunteers,

8:36

including Russians

8:39

who oppose the war. I can't tell

8:41

you how many organizations

8:43

involved and volunteers.

8:45

Dozens? Maybe hundreds.

8:46

Hundreds.

8:48

Is there one piece of advice

8:50

that every mother must

8:52

know before she starts this journey?

8:54

We explain in them that

8:57

Russians will intimidate you. They

9:00

will be doing everything to stop

9:02

you, to provoke you.

9:05

That's why you should focus

9:07

on your child. Your goal

9:10

is to take your child and

9:12

not be afraid. But

9:15

it's hard not to be afraid.

9:17

These women have to travel alone

9:19

while the men stay behind to fight. Just

9:23

before the mothers leave, they get a safety

9:25

briefing where they learn how to craft

9:27

cover stories, for when, inevitably,

9:30

they are interrogated by Russian forces.

9:34

When they return, their stories become

9:36

evidence that save Ukraine's sense to the international

9:38

criminal court.

9:42

Russia's goal, Kuleba says, is

9:44

to steal the Ukrainian

9:45

kid's future by erasing

9:47

their past. They are plans

9:50

to destroy Ukrainian identity.

9:53

The brain wars them, indoctrinate

9:56

them, russify them. They have

9:58

special classes for them. Ukrainian children

10:01

when they teach them what

10:04

is the Russia empire, what

10:06

future they can have in

10:08

Russia, because

10:09

about Ukraine it's only

10:12

bad things. What risk do these

10:14

children pose to Russia if they

10:16

come back home into Ukraine? Every

10:19

child is a war crime witness. Every

10:21

child is a war crime witness.

10:23

Every child, yeah. Every child.

10:25

Vlad Rudenko was 16 when he

10:27

was taken last October. He

10:29

says armed men showed up at his door

10:32

while his mother, Tetiana Bodak, was out.

10:34

They told me you need to

10:36

pack your things. I said I

10:39

will call my mom.

10:40

They said don't bother,

10:42

you're coming with us anyway.

10:44

After that, Vlad says he was ordered

10:46

to board a bus, part of a 16 vehicle

10:49

convoy full of kids that drove

10:51

to a camp in Russian controlled Crimea.

10:54

Moscow claims it's evacuating

10:57

kids from the fighting in eastern and southern

10:59

Ukraine. We've

11:02

learned Russia often pressures poor Ukrainian

11:05

parents to send their children to schools

11:07

and these camps, where the kids spend

11:09

their days with Russian children. Images

11:12

of happy kids are the propaganda

11:14

Russia wants the world to see. But

11:18

several Ukrainian kids told us what

11:20

happens in these camps is less

11:22

about recreation and more about

11:24

indoctrination. They are told

11:26

repeated lies, like Ukraine lost

11:28

the war and their parents don't want

11:31

them.

11:33

Vlad

11:36

secretly

11:36

sent his mother this video and said

11:38

speaking Ukrainian,

11:39

talking about Ukraine or

11:42

even wearing Ukraine's colors was

11:44

forbidden. Every

11:47

morning at a camp like this, Vlad

11:49

told us the Ukrainian children were forced

11:51

to sing the Russian national anthem. Vlad

11:54

refused to fall in line. One

11:56

night he decided to take down the Russian

11:59

flag.

11:59

And then what happened?

12:01

They came over and

12:03

told me to pack up. They said

12:05

we are going to the detention ward. So

12:08

we went to the ward and I said, I'm

12:11

not staying here, I'll break everything in

12:13

here. They told me we'll

12:15

call a psychiatric hospital for you then. But

12:19

in the end, they locked me up anyway in the

12:21

detention ward for five days.

12:23

You were in isolation for five days?

12:26

Yes. One

12:29

more day and I probably would have hanged

12:31

myself.

12:32

Tatiana, what do you think when you hear that? I

12:36

can't. I just can't find the

12:39

words because there is a lot of

12:41

things he didn't tell me. And

12:44

maybe I'm scared to find

12:46

out something that I'd better not

12:49

know.

12:50

By the time Tatiana rescued Vlad

12:53

with Save Ukraine's help, she had lost

12:55

eight months with her son. Did

12:57

he look different to you? No. Yes.

13:01

I remember

13:03

he left as a kid, but then when I

13:05

met him again, I saw

13:07

him when, with an adult vision

13:10

of life. His eyes just

13:12

gave him up.

13:14

Helena couldn't risk losing any

13:16

more time with Nikita. The

13:21

night before she left, she gathered gifts

13:23

for her grandson. This

13:26

bus station was as far as our cameras could

13:28

go, but nine days in, she

13:31

managed to call

13:32

while we were with

13:34

the Save Ukraine team. A translator

13:37

relayed her harrowing trip. I

13:39

was moving there in a call around

13:41

that minefield. There was a

13:44

heavy smell of that body there.

13:47

What Polina couldn't tell us over the

13:49

phone was that she and Save Ukraine

13:51

hatched a plan to get past a border

13:53

checkpoint near the school in occupied

13:56

territory where Nikita was held.

13:58

She pretended to be an aide with her son.

13:59

worker, her driver recorded as

14:02

she walked into the building. The

14:05

director asked me, how did you get

14:07

here?

14:07

I

14:10

told him, I'm a volunteer. I came

14:12

here from Poland and brought you some humanitarian

14:15

aid. I needed to say

14:17

something to be able to see Nikita

14:19

and figure out a way to get him out of there.

14:22

This was the only way to do it.

14:25

And then she finally identified herself

14:28

as Nikita's

14:28

grandmother and gave the school

14:30

director a Ukrainian document

14:32

authorizing her to take Nikita

14:34

home. He refused. The

14:37

director said to me, he's mine, I'm

14:40

his guardian. And

14:43

I said, but I'm his grandmother.

14:46

You have no right because he has a biological

14:49

grandmother who will take him back. This

14:52

is my child.

14:55

Last year, Vladimir Putin changed

14:57

the law to make it easier for

14:58

some Ukrainian children

15:00

to receive Russian citizenship,

15:02

allowing them to be adopted by Russian families.

15:05

And Putin's top deputy in charge of children's

15:08

rights, Maria Lovoova-Bolova,

15:11

posted these videos of what she

15:13

described as Ukrainian

15:14

orphans with their adoptive parents.

15:17

Lovoova-Bolova herself says she

15:20

adopted a 15-year-old Ukrainian

15:22

boy from the occupied city of Mariupol.

15:26

Polina showed us the documents that led

15:28

her to believe Nikita was also

15:30

about to be adopted. So this is the

15:32

Ukrainian birth certificate,

15:34

born in Ukraine, Ukrainian child.

15:37

And this is what Russia made. And

15:39

what does this say?

15:41

It says that

15:43

he's a citizen of

15:44

the Russian Federation.

15:46

It's almost hard for me to get my head

15:48

around this. Your grandson is a Ukrainian

15:51

citizen. And you're telling me

15:53

you believe the Russians were

15:57

on the verge of giving him to

15:59

a Russian family. of adopting him out to

16:01

another family.

16:02

Yes.

16:03

Yes. Yes.

16:05

She says the school called her Ukrainian

16:08

documentation fake and demanded

16:10

a DNA test. They kept Polina

16:12

waiting

16:13

for the results.

16:14

For 70 days, she refused

16:16

to back down.

16:18

Until finally, Polina was

16:20

let into a room where she heard this.

16:24

There

16:25

to personally oversee

16:31

the reunion, Maria Lovo-Bolova.

16:38

Russian

16:44

cameras recorded as the accused

16:46

war criminal handed Nikita gifts.

16:51

She also made them an offer. Lovo-Bolova

16:56

said to me, would you like to stay with us

16:58

in the Russian Federation maybe? We

17:01

will give you some money. We will give you a car.

17:04

They tried to get you to stay with Nikita. Yes.

17:07

Yes. I said, I don't need anything.

17:10

I have everything.

17:12

Maria Lovo-Bolova insists

17:14

Russia does not put Ukrainian children

17:16

up for adoption and that it makes every

17:19

effort to return them. On social

17:21

media, she called Polina and Nikita's

17:23

reunion a joy and wished

17:25

them a quote, happy life.

17:29

Finally reunited, Polina

17:31

and Nikita began the long trip back

17:33

to safety,

17:34

driving day and night for a week.

17:41

We were with the Save Ukraine team when

17:43

they arrived in Poland. They

17:47

plan to live here until the war is over.

17:52

What do you want to do with your grandmother now?

17:54

Nikita told me

17:57

he wants to play toys with her.

17:59

And with a smile he proudly

18:02

said, This is my mother, my

18:05

grandmother.

18:31

Don't miss true crime, any

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18:39

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18:41

lives. He put

18:44

a gun to me, said, This is the day you

18:45

die. And he shot me. And

18:48

then, justice, there's some questions

18:50

that have to be asked. And the need to answer.

18:52

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18:54

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18:57

of 48 hours, where you get your podcasts.

19:01

The wildfire in August that ripped through

19:03

the Hawaiian town of Lahaina was America's

19:05

deadliest in 100 years.

19:07

At least 99 people were killed.

19:10

You

19:10

may recall the pictures of people jumping

19:12

into the Pacific Ocean to escape as

19:15

the fire burned most of the historic town

19:17

in a matter of hours. But

19:19

there is an untold story about a group

19:21

of firefighters who were also trapped

19:24

while fighting fast-moving flames.

19:27

Tonight, you will hear from those Maui

19:29

County firefighters about

19:30

two of the worst hours of their lives.

19:33

They took a stand to save their hometown

19:35

without the thing they depend on the most.

19:38

Water.

19:39

The morning began with blue skies

19:41

and winds gusting nearly 60 miles

19:43

an hour.

19:45

I was just watching the ocean and watching

19:48

what was happening on the ocean and just never seeing

19:50

that before. What was happening on the ocean? It just was

19:52

like frost.

19:54

It was completely white, and

19:56

there was whirlwinds that sat out there

19:58

for over an hour.

19:59

Like they had been whipped up. Yeah, the winds

20:02

were just nuts.

20:03

Firefighter Ina Kuller drives Engine 3.

20:07

She grew up in Lahaina, the once postcard-purple

20:10

town of 13,000, tossed

20:12

between the West Maui Range and sparkling

20:14

Pacific.

20:16

In Hawaiian, Lahaina means cool

20:18

sun.

20:19

But on August 8, it was the wind.

20:22

Lipped up by a hurricane 500 miles offshore,

20:25

it showed no mercy. We're

20:29

used to winds, but we weren't used to that kind

20:31

of wind. I looked out my window and there was like a

20:33

giant tiddie pool, like one of the bigger ones,

20:36

flying through the air, like 100 feet up. Freaking

20:39

power line just went down.

20:40

At 6.30 that morning, a resident

20:43

recorded this video after a power

20:45

line fell and ignited the dry grass

20:47

that covers much of Lahaina's hillside.

20:49

At most, there

20:51

are 17 firefighters on duty

20:54

in West Maui. Kuller's crew

20:56

of four relieved the firefighters

20:58

that first responded. We had contained

21:00

it, meaning it wasn't getting any bigger. So

21:03

now we were just putting water on all the hot

21:05

spots to make sure that everything

21:07

was fully out, just gassing everything in water.

21:10

How

21:10

long were you out there? We were probably until

21:12

like two.

21:13

And then we went on some calls in

21:15

the neighborhood right next door, down

21:17

poles, and that we're leaning on houses

21:20

and down lines. Around 3

21:23

o'clock, I know Kuller's crew was called

21:25

back to the area of the morning brush fire.

21:27

This is police video. Hey, there's a full

21:29

painting. The hillside was on

21:31

fire again. How fast was

21:33

the fire moving at that point? I couldn't tell.

21:36

I could tell the fast the smoke was moving and it was kind of like not even

21:38

going up. It was just going sideways. Thousand

21:41

pipe breaks, bleeding water out of

21:43

the system. It was somewhere around there

21:45

that I heard that my

21:48

mom's office is,

21:51

which is a long ways away from where I was, it was

21:53

on fire. And then to know

21:55

that it was there and to know that I was

21:57

running out of water.

21:59

Like, man, it's over.

22:01

Like, we're

22:02

going to keep trying, but it's

22:05

over.

22:08

This was the view from inside a fire

22:10

truck. Black skies lit by an

22:12

inferno that stretched for blocks. West

22:15

position. Firefighters didn't have the water

22:17

or the crews to stop it. Oh, man,

22:20

it's so nice right here. Residents say they

22:22

never received an evacuation order. So

22:24

by 4 p.m., police were racing

22:27

around town to get people out. Let's

22:29

go!

22:30

Hurry up! I'm

22:33

going to the fire. I'm going to

22:35

the fire. I'm going to the fire. Hurry up!

22:37

Hurry up!

22:40

At the same time, reinforcements

22:42

started to arrive from other fire stations

22:44

across Maui, including 26-year-old

22:47

Tanner Mosier. He was with Engine 6.

22:50

Once you got into the smoke, it was like 5

22:52

feet of visibility, maybe 10

22:54

if you're lucky. It's like a blowtorch being

22:57

blown at you.

22:58

The heat was just so intense. Captain

23:01

J. Fujita has been a firefighter almost

23:03

as long as Tanner Mosier's been alive. He

23:05

commanded Engine 1 to take a position a few

23:08

blocks beyond that wall of fire next

23:10

to Mosier's crew. At 4.30,

23:13

streets were clogged with the cars of residents

23:15

and tourists.

23:16

This was a 911 operator.

23:18

You guys need to leave. If

23:22

you can't drive away, get

23:25

out of the car and run. The

23:27

abandoned cars and a web of downed

23:29

power lines trapped the eight firefighters

23:32

and their two engines. Once

23:34

we determined we wouldn't be able to escape

23:36

the

23:37

street that we're on,

23:40

we pulled a line to kind of protect ourselves

23:42

from the fire. Just to keep the fire away from you.

23:45

Yeah, but the hose burned.

23:47

So you don't have a hose and you

23:49

can't get out. Yeah,

23:51

our only course of action was to shelter

23:53

in place.

23:55

After the engines, they relied on

23:57

air

23:57

tanks to breathe. serving

24:00

our air as much as possible and just sitting

24:03

in our seats.

24:04

We're just fixating on

24:07

making it out lasting. So at that

24:09

point it's surviving. It's surviving

24:12

for sure. I mean, we could see metal melting

24:14

in front of our eyes.

24:16

I had texted my wife. Uh,

24:18

I told her I love her and to pass

24:21

a message on to the rest of my family that I love

24:23

them,

24:24

that we're stuck and we might not be able to make it out.

24:27

But

24:28

it was too hot in the truck. So my phone

24:30

wasn't working. So the message didn't go through. I

24:33

just remember being like, I

24:36

can't give up yet. Like I gotta, I gotta do

24:38

something.

24:39

And so I remember

24:41

looking out the window and all of a sudden I

24:43

could see, um,

24:46

NGO one Skeeter, many one.

24:48

The Skeeter is a small fire truck

24:50

like this one. Moser jumped into

24:53

it alone to see if he could clear a path

24:55

for the engines to get out. Moser

24:57

says when he realized the Skeeter couldn't drive

24:59

through the barricade of cars, he made

25:02

the snap decision to

25:03

drive over them to find help. And

25:05

so I just remember putting a four-wheel drive and

25:08

I launched the barricade and I kind of planed

25:11

for a second and I was like, Oh, okay. I made it over.

25:13

And at the end of the lot was a rock wall. So

25:16

I

25:17

launched over the rock wall and definitely

25:19

caught some power line. So I'll just be driving

25:21

through the smoke, not seeing anything. So I'm just like driving

25:25

through dodging stuff.

25:26

His truck was damaged, but down

25:28

the road, he saw the lights of a police

25:30

car. I just remember leaving

25:33

most of my stuff in that truck and getting out, running to

25:35

the cop and just telling him like, Hey, I

25:37

got guys in there. They

25:39

need help. They're dying. And so he says,

25:41

Hey, you can, you can take my squad vehicle,

25:44

just come back. And so I, I hopped

25:46

in there and just started driving back

25:48

into the smoke where I knew I came

25:51

from or where I remembered coming from.

25:53

As Mosier made his way back, Captain

25:56

Fujita realized the fire truck was no

25:58

longer

25:59

offering protection.

25:59

I noticed

26:03

a windshield failing. It started to fail. Your

26:05

windshield's failing? What do you mean? So

26:08

the windshield was made up of

26:12

two painted glass with a

26:13

film in the middle, and that film was, you

26:15

know, delaminating and bubbling in the windshield.

26:18

So it's melting around you? Yeah.

26:21

So we

26:22

got out of the truck, and

26:24

we all sheltered behind the engine. We

26:27

heard like a chirping of a siren,

26:30

but because of the smoke, we really couldn't see where

26:32

it was coming from. But finally we seen

26:34

a police SUV show up. It

26:37

was Tanner Moser. Seven firefighters

26:39

in gear crammed inside the SUV Moser

26:42

was driving, including his captain, Mike

26:45

Mulally, who was unconscious from

26:47

smoke inhalation. He's on the far left

26:49

in this

26:49

picture, taken before the fire. He was

26:52

in the car,

26:54

the SUV with the door open, and his

26:56

boots were hanging, but they weren't touching

26:58

the ground.

26:59

So they're just

27:00

holding on to Captain? Yeah,

27:01

so all the guys that were able to reach him, they're

27:03

just locked on. With

27:05

his captain's legs dangling out, Moser

27:07

says he jumped the loaded police SUV

27:10

to safety.

27:11

Did Tanner Moser save your life that day? Yes,

27:14

he saved all of our lives.

27:16

He's a young guy. You

27:17

can't teach that kind of

27:20

heroism.

27:22

You just had it in him.

27:24

Once clear, the firefighters performed

27:26

CPR and stabilized Captain

27:29

Mulally.

27:30

And then

27:31

all seven of us went back to work. You

27:34

kept fighting fires? Yep,

27:36

all the way through the next morning. With

27:39

little water, there was little they could do

27:41

to save homes. So as the sun

27:43

set, the firefighters' mission shifted to saving

27:46

anyone they could,

27:47

any way they could. And

27:49

a Kohler dished her fire engine and used

27:52

a pickup to snake through the burning debris

27:54

downtown, a local she

27:56

knew every way in and out.

27:59

cars stuck

28:02

down there not knowing which way to get out.

28:04

And so I would jump in their car and I would

28:06

drive their car out for them. So

28:08

everybody's trying to get out and you're

28:09

going in. Yeah.

28:11

Koller, a mother of two, said her family was

28:14

able to escape,

28:15

but like 16 other firefighters in Lahaina,

28:17

she lost her home.

28:19

Did you ever think,

28:21

like, why me? No, I was like,

28:25

everything else is burned down. Why not

28:27

my house? You know, I didn't want to be

28:30

feeling like I couldn't defend,

28:33

you know, the entire town. And if

28:35

my house was still standing, I'd probably have

28:38

even more guilt.

28:41

Once the sparkling jewel of Maui, this

28:43

is Lahaina today. Its treasures

28:45

now a sea of ash and charred

28:47

metal. More than 2,000 homes

28:50

and businesses were destroyed. Hawaii's

28:53

attorney general is investigating the cause

28:55

of the afternoon fire and how the water

28:57

system failed. Already

29:00

in the hills above Lahaina, the flammable

29:02

grass that set the stage for this disaster

29:05

is growing back. Captain

29:07

Jay Fujita took us to the street where

29:10

his crew made it stand. Your

29:12

engine was right there? Yeah, right there. Those

29:15

ashes in front of us are the outline

29:17

of where fire consumed what was once

29:19

Engine One.

29:21

It's kind of like a grave, you know, coming

29:23

back to see this.

29:24

After we left, it still was hot enough and

29:28

bad enough to burn the engine.

29:30

To nothing? Yeah.

29:33

What do you think

29:35

about the fight now when you look back on

29:38

it? I think we all wish we could have done

29:40

more. We

29:41

made it all in. We're grateful, but

29:43

at the same time, there's still

29:45

people that didn't make it out.

29:48

Not far from where the Lahaina fire began

29:51

is a line of crosses, one for each

29:53

person who died. The

29:55

100th victim was identified

29:57

last week. But by our count...

29:59

Maui firefighters rescued at

30:02

least 200 people from the flames.

30:04

The

30:17

Steven Van Zandt embodies both the

30:19

frustration and beauty of the arts.

30:21

There are no orcharts, no official titles,

30:24

no one way to do the job.

30:26

He has discovered that it's easier to be this

30:28

creative furnace, this volcano

30:31

of artistic output, when you are not the focus.

30:33

So the longtime guitarist and musical director

30:36

for Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band was

30:38

also an underboss of a different kind, acting

30:41

in one of history's most influential television

30:44

shows, The Sopranos. That

30:46

is, when he wasn't writing scripts and arranging

30:48

music, all while trying to preserve

30:51

rock and roll. The highway may

30:53

be jammed with broken heroes, yet little

30:55

Steven refuses to pick a lane.

30:58

Late on a Sunday afternoon in

31:00

May, Steven Van Zandt was midway

31:02

through a burst of furious creativity,

31:04

tending to his latest screenplay. He

31:07

had an idea he had to commit to the page.

31:13

Where

31:16

was this quaint writer's retreat? In

31:19

his backstage dressing room, at a concert,

31:22

in Rome, mere minutes before Van

31:24

Zandt put his pen and pad away and

31:26

then went on stage to perform Circus

31:28

Maximus, the ancient chariot arena,

31:31

as a critical member of one of the most successful

31:33

rock and roll acts of all time. You

31:43

said we had to come see you

31:46

guys perform in Rome, of all the

31:48

cities, all the gin joints, by Rome. The

31:50

fans here are just so much pointy. You

31:53

see everybody singing every single word of

31:56

every single song when they don't particularly

31:58

speak English.

31:59

You know, which is a validation.

32:02

Well, it's a validation if

32:04

the show of the power of what we do

32:10

Swaddled in his trademark bandana and

32:12

wrapped in complexity little Steven

32:14

out 72 Remains a true

32:17

American original the ultimate wingman.

32:20

I'm not crazy about the spotlight I

32:22

could have been and maybe I should have been okay

32:25

because again you realize

32:28

That has big advantages But

32:30

naturally I just wasn't into it. I'd

32:32

rather be standing next to the guy

32:34

Let him be in a spotlight. Let him take the heat

32:36

because I like to blend in actually I

32:39

could tell by the By

32:41

the modest measured outfit. I gave

32:43

up trying to analyze it years ago, but

32:46

I prefer to be an Observer

32:49

rather than the observed. Can I break it to

32:51

you? I Need

32:55

to lie down on the couch for this one thing

32:57

he's not questioning his place

32:59

in the band You know people always say, you know, aren't

33:01

you worried about being replaced? Oh my god.

33:04

No, I can't be replaced I'm a how

33:06

many how many best friends you have for 50

33:08

years, you know

33:09

The best friend he references of course is

33:11

Springsteen. They met as teenagers

33:14

in 1960s Jersey Misfits

33:16

seduced by rock and roll to quote little

33:18

Stephen the Beatles revealed this

33:20

new world to us the Rolling Stones

33:22

invited us in They formed a

33:25

band anchored in the boardwalk town

33:27

of Asbury Park

33:28

Given that Van Zant had a monthly overhead

33:30

of a hundred and fifty dollars in rent the

33:33

going was good More important

33:35

the band learned how to play live

33:37

how to marry a musicianship with showmanship

33:40

The fact that we were in bars, you know

33:42

making our bones

33:44

You know what seven years before

33:47

we got into the music business, right?

33:49

You get into this game because it just this speaks

33:52

to you. What's it brought you that you didn't

33:54

expect? Other than everything. Yeah,

33:57

it was like it was everything

34:00

It saved my life. I didn't

34:02

have any path forward.

34:06

And

34:08

so it brings you acceptance,

34:10

you're part of something. And

34:14

man, it just came along right at the right time. You're

34:16

making a living playing rock and roll, man. That one's a miracle.

34:22

Van Zant, who doesn't read or write

34:24

music, brought his guitar chops

34:26

and

34:29

his musical ears.

34:35

Arranging the iconic horns on 10th

34:37

Avenue frees out and polishing

34:39

Springsteen's guitar lick on Born for One.

34:50

How much credit

34:52

should you take for the success of this band?

34:55

I understood certain things earlier than everybody

34:57

else. If you listen to The Dark, The Thunder, and The Town,

35:00

and listen to River, the

35:02

difference is me. I'm

35:06

not ever going to take more credit than

35:09

the rest of this band, so I just was kind of helping

35:11

shape things and trying to realize Bruce's vision.

35:14

It's his vision. I try to

35:16

make bad things good, good things

35:18

great, and great things better.

35:21

Yet after an argument over creative

35:23

input, Van Zant left the band in 1984 and

35:26

was conspicuously absent on tour

35:29

for Springsteen's most commercially successful

35:31

album.

35:32

He had married actress Maureen Santoro

35:34

and started writing songs for his own band,

35:37

Little Stephen and the Disciples of Soul.

35:44

And he turned his attention to political activism,

35:47

most notably to apartheid in South

35:49

Africa.

35:50

26 million black people could

35:53

not vote, could not even

35:55

have a cup of tea with a white

35:57

person without permission. It's terrible.

36:00

In 1985, Van Zant wrote and

36:02

co-produced the protest song Sun

36:04

City, which

36:09

cast the resort town three hours outside

36:12

of Johannesburg as a symbol of the moral

36:14

failure of apartheid. Van Zant

36:17

didn't just get colleagues to sing on

36:19

an album, he got them to commit

36:21

to a Sun City boycott. He saw

36:23

through that. Yeah, so we use that as

36:25

the example and we expose that whole fraudulent

36:28

scheme. Ain't gonna play Sun City.

36:30

Yeah.

36:32

In the late 90s, he and Springsteen reconciled,

36:35

and when the boss asked his buddy to rejoin

36:37

the E Street band, well, this

36:40

gun was for hire. But

36:43

there was a hitch.

36:46

Van Zant had

36:48

already committed to a new TV show on HBO.

36:52

I genuinely don't think there's anything

36:54

to gain by keeping him around.

36:56

The creator, David Chase, had seen Van Zant

36:59

at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and made him

37:01

an offer he couldn't refuse. He

37:03

calls and says, you know, you want to be in my new TV show?

37:06

And I said, wow, that's really nice, David. I

37:08

really appreciate that, but no, not really.

37:11

You know, he said, what do you mean no? I'm

37:14

like, I'm not an actor. You know, that's

37:16

a problem. Van Zant

37:18

says Chase wanted him to play the lead. He

37:21

goes to HBO, and HBO says, you out

37:23

of your mind. You know, you depend

37:25

on a guy who can't act. I mean, would never act.

37:28

Nice guitar playing it all, but yeah,

37:30

I mean, what are you, nuts?

37:32

The Sopranos would elevate television. While

37:35

the lead would go to James Gandolfini, Van

37:37

Zant would scene steal as Silvio

37:39

Dante, manager of the Batabing

37:41

Club.

37:42

I knew if I could create the guy from the outside

37:44

in, if I could see him in the mirror, I felt

37:47

I could be him. You know, I was a little bit of a mob

37:50

aficionado. You know what I mean? I

37:52

played the Flamingo Hotel, for Christ's sake. You know, come

37:54

on, come on. You know what I mean? Who has

37:56

better, who has better credibility than that?

37:59

Don't get me wrong. The guy who played Tony

38:02

Soprano's right-hand man, he had more

38:04

than a passing familiarity with the part.

38:07

I don't want to liken Bruce Springsteen to a mob boss, but

38:10

you...

38:10

A little bit. Eh! But

38:13

you had that experience. You'd done

38:15

that drill. You knew what it was like to be the... I

38:18

know those dynamics, okay? I know being

38:20

the only guy who's not

38:22

afraid to tell the boss the truth. That's

38:25

the job, okay? That's the gig. The guy's best

38:27

friend, or the consul, yeah,

38:29

the underboss, you know, somebody has to be

38:31

the one to occasionally bring

38:34

bad news. What was an adjustment?

38:36

The passive aggressiveness of the acting

38:38

stage. Because now it's like, who's got

38:40

more lines? Who's gonna be in front of the camera

38:43

at the right time? So I'm sensing

38:45

all this kind of weird, you know,

38:47

a little bit weird. I'm not used to this kind of... This

38:50

tension. Yeah. And

38:52

then I'm gonna turn this show

38:54

into a rock and roll band, you know?

38:57

Before I'm done, okay? This

39:00

show is gonna be a band. It's one

39:02

for one, you know, all for one, right? Who's

39:05

this guy? An original Sopranos poster

39:07

is one of the countless music and film

39:09

relics adorning Vanzant's studio in

39:11

Greenwich Village. When

39:13

the Sopranos journey ended after eight years,

39:16

Vanzant, seeing Vanzant, embarked

39:18

on new projects. He started his

39:21

memoir. And

39:23

he co-rode and starred in Lillehammer,

39:25

a mob show based in Norway that would become

39:28

the first original series in the history

39:30

of a streaming service called Netflix.

39:33

Take it easy. What

39:35

do you call it? But wait, there's more.

39:38

Concerned about the decline in rock venues

39:40

and album sales, he launched a weekly

39:43

radio program, Little Stevens Underground

39:45

Garage.

39:47

You wouldn't mind if you guys were supplanted

39:49

a little bit by a new wave of E3

39:51

bands.

39:55

He also somehow found the bandwidth

39:57

to launch T-Truck, a free K-12

39:59

curriculum that uses rock and

40:02

roll to sneak in teaching all the other

40:04

stuff. We say, tell us what you're listening

40:06

to. Well, I'm listening

40:08

to Beyonce. Oh,

40:11

well, you know where Beyonce comes from? She

40:13

comes from a woman named Aretha Franklin. And

40:16

Aretha Franklin, she comes from a place called Detroit,

40:18

you know? We talk about Detroit. And we talk about,

40:21

she comes from the gospel church. We

40:23

talk about that. She was involved with civil rights. And we

40:25

talk about that, you

40:26

know? And they're listening. And

40:29

they're paying attention. Why? Because we're on their

40:31

turf. And yet we always hear

40:33

about how

40:34

art and music programs are getting cut in

40:36

public schools. Yes. It's

40:39

because people don't understand we're

40:41

the only country in the world that thinks art is a luxury.

40:44

Everybody else in the world understands that art

40:46

is an essential part of the quality of life.

40:49

The current culture of the arts, the shifting

40:51

state of play in music,

40:53

makes him all the more grateful that a couple

40:55

of Jersey non-conformists timed

40:58

it right, caught

41:00

some breaks, and became rock and

41:03

roll titans. How do you even

41:05

begin to start describing Stephen Van Zandt?

41:08

I don't know if I can do that, except

41:11

all I can say is I met him when he was 16. Steve

41:14

is the consigliori of the E

41:16

Street band.

41:17

If I have questions pertaining

41:20

a

41:20

direction for the band,

41:23

or issues with the band, or

41:25

something like the set list, I'm

41:28

not sure what we're going to play that night or what we should start

41:30

with, or if he has second doubts

41:32

about something, he always comes to me. So

41:35

he's been essential to me since, I

41:37

don't know, since he walked into

41:39

the studio during the Born to Run sessions

41:42

and fixed the horns and my

41:44

guitar parts. And we've been doing it together

41:46

for a long time, and that's a wonderful

41:48

thing. I mean, how many

41:50

people have their best friend at their side 50

41:53

some years later? In

42:00

music we like the same clothes. Yeah.

42:03

You guys meet as teenagers, you're a

42:05

Jersey outcast, and here we

42:07

are more than 50 years later and you're going out

42:09

to play Circus Maximus in Rome. It's

42:12

something. You can't put it together. It's

42:14

just one of those things that happens. How

42:17

do you make sense of that? Seriously?

42:20

Well, in a way it makes sense because I think

42:22

as we mentioned, we couldn't do anything else.

42:25

So we were going to, we were destined to do this.

42:28

And we did nothing else. So

42:31

that has a lot to do with it too. All

42:33

we did was music, music, music,

42:36

music, play, play, play, play.

42:44

That

42:44

we and the rest of the crowd

42:47

experienced for ourselves. It's

42:49

me, however. I

42:52

think it's time to go home

42:53

now. Still rocking out

42:55

in his 70s, trying to save radio,

42:57

trying to save rock, writing screenplays,

43:00

which Stephen Van Zandt is accused of being

43:02

an artistic dreamer without apology,

43:05

he'll plead guilty. This is going to sound

43:07

harsh. Is this the Sonic version of Donkey Hodie?

43:10

Oh yeah, that's pretty much my life story.

43:13

But occasionally you're knocked down a

43:15

windmill or two. You

43:19

know? I think

43:20

it's time to go home.

43:24

As we begin Thanksgiving week, we're offering

43:26

an extra helping of 60 Minutes tonight. Coming up, Anderson

43:28

Cooper has the story of a slave. Without

43:31

apology, he'll plead guilty. This

43:34

is going to sound harsh. Is this the Sonic version

43:36

of Donkey Hodie? Oh yeah, that's pretty much my life story. But

43:40

occasionally you're knocked down a windmill or

43:42

two. You know?

43:52

As we begin Thanksgiving week, we're offering

43:54

an extra helping of 60 Minutes tonight.

43:57

Coming up, Anderson Cooper has the story

43:59

of a slave.

43:59

and

44:00

a difficult and important conversation

44:03

you'll want to hear among the descendants

44:05

of both the enslaved and the enslavers.

44:08

My hope is that this

44:11

can be an example of what

44:13

reconciliation looks like for

44:15

the nation as well as start

44:18

the healing process for a number of descendants.

44:21

Everybody has this perception that, you know,

44:24

maybe we're

44:24

angry. Are you angry at

44:26

mayors?

44:28

I'm not angry at the mayors. I'm just

44:30

angry at the fact that it took so long to speak out.

44:33

We were silent for far too long, and

44:35

we were distant for far too long. I'm

44:38

Cecilia Vega. Stick around and we'll be

44:40

back with Africa

44:41

Town.

44:46

In 2019, we began reporting

44:48

on the discovery of the Clotilda, a sunken

44:51

slave ship found in the bottom of an Alabama

44:53

river.

44:54

The Clotilda was the last ship known

44:56

to have brought captured Africans to America

44:59

in 1860.

45:00

What happened to the 110 men,

45:02

women, and children on board is

45:05

well documented,

45:06

and their stories have been passed down through

45:08

generations by their descendants, some

45:11

of whom still live just a few miles

45:13

from where the ship was found,

45:14

in a community called Africa Town.

45:18

For 160 years, this muddy stretch

45:21

of the Mobile River covered up a crime. In

45:24

July 1860, the Clotilda

45:26

was towed here after a 45-day

45:28

voyage from West Africa with 110 enslaved

45:30

people on board.

45:33

I just imagine myself being

45:35

on this ship, just listening to the waves in the water, and just not

45:37

knowing where you were going.

45:40

Joycelyn Davis, Lorna Gail Woods, and Thomas

45:42

Griffin are direct descendants of this African

45:44

man, Olu Lale.

45:46

Once enslaved, his owner changed his name

45:48

to Charlie Lewis.

45:49

This image is from around 1900.

45:52

Polie Allen, whose African name was Kipollie,

45:55

seen in this 100-year-old sketch, was

45:57

the ancestor of Jeremy Ellis and

45:59

Darren Paterson. Patterson.

46:00

No clothes eating

46:03

where they defecated

46:05

only allowed out of the cargo hold for

46:07

one day a week for two months. How

46:10

many people do we know now that could

46:12

have survived something like that without losing

46:14

their mind? There are no photographs

46:16

of Pat Frazier's great, great grandmother Lottie

46:19

Denison,

46:19

but Caprincia Wallace and her mother Cassandra

46:22

have a surprising number of pictures of

46:24

their ancestor, Kuzula, whose

46:26

enslaver called him Kudjo Lewis.

46:29

Growing up my mom made sure she told me

46:31

all the stories that her dad told her about

46:34

Kudjo. Cassandra, that was important to you to

46:37

pass that knowledge along. My dad set

46:40

us down.

46:40

He would make us repeat

46:42

Kuzula,

46:44

Kuzula, Kuzula.

46:47

The story of the Klotilda began when

46:49

Timothy Mayer, a wealthy businessman,

46:52

hired Captain William Foster to

46:54

illegally smuggle a shipload of captive

46:56

Africans from the kingdom up to home,

46:59

a modern-day Benin, to Mobile.

47:01

When they arrived, Mayer divided

47:03

them up between himself, his brother Burns,

47:06

and several others. Captain Foster

47:08

claimed he then burned and sank the Klotilda,

47:10

but exactly where remained a mystery

47:13

until 2018. That's

47:15

when a local reporter, Ben Raines,

47:17

found the Klotilda in about 20 feet

47:19

of water next to land still owned

47:21

by the Mayer family. And this was the key

47:24

to finding the ship.

47:25

Raines had been searching for seven months, following

47:27

clues in Captain Foster's journal, which

47:30

is in Mobile's public library.

47:32

So we're almost

47:35

over an hour. Yeah, we're coming right

47:37

up on it. We visited the wreck

47:39

with maritime archaeologist James Delgado

47:42

in 2020.

47:46

The water is so muddy, the only way to see

47:48

the ship is with a sonar device.

47:50

Wow, you can see it's totally clear. That's

47:52

the ship. Yes, that's close-hildered. This

47:55

is the bow here, just a few feet from the

47:58

surface and both sides of the hull.

47:59

Clotilda is 86 feet

48:02

long, but the back of it, the stern,

48:04

is buried deep in mud.

48:07

You can see nothing. We

48:10

dove on the wreck, but there's zero visibility

48:12

underwater. This

48:14

wooden plank was all our camera could pick up.

48:19

Two years later, James Delgado and

48:21

his team, including diver Jay Hagler, returned

48:24

to the wreck to properly explore the site. They

48:27

carefully removed 98 pieces of

48:29

the Clotilda for examination. This

48:32

is a very good find. This is off

48:34

of the stern. Including this part of

48:36

the steering system. Most remarkable

48:38

of all, they found, for the first time ever,

48:41

according to Delgado, the intact cargo

48:43

hold of a slave ship. And it was

48:45

smaller than they'd previously thought. But the

48:47

only way to get all those people

48:49

in was to literally

48:51

put these posts in and lay these platforms,

48:54

as they called them out, a foot and a half apart

48:57

and literally cram people

48:59

in.

49:00

Delgado helped us create this animation

49:02

that shows the posts they found still

49:04

upright in the cargo hold. And the wooden

49:07

platforms where the 110 captives

49:09

had been forced to lie crowded together

49:12

shoulder to shoulder, stacked on top

49:14

of each other in near total darkness

49:16

for the 45-day voyage.

49:18

The British had developed a rule on how

49:20

to do this. So it was a foot

49:22

and a half by five feet

49:25

for a man. Foot and

49:27

four inches for a woman and a foot for

49:30

a child. A child would get one

49:32

foot of body space. And

49:34

when you use that very

49:37

bureaucratic,

49:38

cruel, evil math, you

49:40

could cram

49:42

the 110 people in there in horrific conditions.

49:47

Jay Hagler had dived on slave ships before,

49:49

but never inside a cargo hold. Once

49:53

I got down there, there was a calmness

49:55

that was around.

49:56

It really kind of washed over me.

50:00

I really

50:02

felt the presence of the 110 ancestors. I

50:05

was a different person that came out

50:07

of that cargo hold than I was when I went in. You

50:10

really feel that? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

50:13

It was a spiritual experience.

50:15

Some of the ship's pieces, Delgado's team, retrieved

50:18

are now on display in a new museum called

50:21

Africa Town Heritage House, which

50:23

opened in July just a few miles away

50:25

from the wreck.

50:29

Africa Town was founded around 1868, three

50:32

years after emancipation, by 30 of the Africans

50:35

from the Clotilda. It is

50:37

the only surviving community in America founded

50:40

by Africans, and some of their descendants

50:42

still call it home. Who lives here

50:44

now? Family

50:45

members, cousins. Joycelyn Davis

50:47

took

50:47

us to the street. Her

50:50

great-great-great-grandfather, Charlie

50:52

Lewis, lived on. It's still called

50:54

Lewis Quarters. So pretty much everyone

50:56

on this street can trace

50:59

their lineage back to Charlie Lewis? Yes. Everyone

51:00

here is related.

51:01

Wow.

51:03

In an interview published in 1914, Kujo

51:06

Lewis said when he and the other Clotilda survivors were

51:08

freed after five years of enslavement,

51:11

he asked Timothy Mayer to help them return

51:13

to Africa, but Mayer refused.

51:16

Mayer also tried to prevent them from voting,

51:19

and some found work in a sawmill Mayer

51:21

owned.

51:22

I mean, they worked for like a dollar a day, until

51:24

they saved up their money to buy land.

51:27

This rare film from 1928 shows

51:30

Kujo Lewis in his 80s when

51:32

he was one of the Clotilda's last living survivors.

51:35

He helped found this church in Africa Town,

51:38

the same church many of the Clotilda descendants

51:40

still attend today.

51:42

Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.

51:46

After emancipation, it seems so

51:48

unlikely that a group of freed

51:51

slaves could pool their resources

51:54

and build a community. I mean, that's an

51:56

extraordinary thing. There's

51:58

this thing we say about making a living.

51:59

way out of no way.

52:01

Mary Elliott is a curator at the Smithsonian's

52:04

National Museum of African American History and

52:06

Culture in Washington, D.C.

52:08

When these folks were forced over here

52:11

from the continent of Africa, they

52:13

didn't come with empty heads.

52:15

They came with empty hands. So they found

52:18

a way to make a way, and they were resilient.

52:21

Africa Town was once a vibrant community.

52:24

There were black-owned businesses, the first black

52:26

school and mobile, and by the 1960s, 12,000 people

52:28

lived here. But

52:31

those black-owned businesses are gone. An

52:33

interstate highway was built through the middle of

52:36

Africa Town in the early 1990s, and

52:38

there are only about 800 residents remaining,

52:41

living in small clusters of homes surrounded

52:44

by factories and chemical plants.

52:48

No matter where you go in Africa Town, you can hear

52:50

factories and industry and

52:52

the highway.

52:54

There is this constant buzz. It's a buzz

52:56

you hear all the time, day and night.

52:59

And it's a constant reminder of the breakup

53:01

of this community.

53:03

Since the Clotilda's discovery, some $10

53:06

million in city, state, federal

53:08

and philanthropic funds have gone into the revitalization

53:11

of Africa Town. But the descendants

53:13

of Timothy Mayer, the slave owner who

53:15

bankrolled the Clotilda, refused to

53:17

meet. The Mayer family

53:19

still owns about 14 percent of the land

53:22

in historic Africa Town, and their property

53:24

markers are hard to miss. There's

53:27

even streets nearby named after

53:29

Timothy Mayer. Court filings from 2012 indicate

53:32

the Mayer's real estate and timber business

53:34

is worth an estimated $36 million. When

53:39

we first visited in 2020, the Mayer's

53:41

weren't talking to us or the

53:43

Clotilda descendants. I

53:45

don't think it's something that people want to remember.

53:47

Because they have said now that they benefit from it today.

53:49

That they benefited. That's it. That

53:52

they genocided. That's

53:54

how part of that wealth was derived.

53:57

And that on the backs of those

53:59

people.

53:59

What would you want to say to them? I mean, if, if they were

54:02

willing to sit down and have, you know, have

54:04

a coffee with them. We would first need to acknowledge

54:06

what was done to Pat. And then

54:08

there's an accountability piece that

54:11

your family from, for this many

54:13

years, five years on my ancestors.

54:16

And then the third piece would be, how do we

54:18

partner together with an Africa

54:21

town?

54:22

This past July, descendants of Timothy

54:24

Mayer agreed to a historic meeting

54:27

with the Clutilda descendants. We'll

54:29

show you how that went when we come back.

54:43

For years, descendants of the enslaved

54:45

Africans brought to Alabama on the Clutilda

54:48

have been trying to meet with the descendants of Timothy

54:50

Mayer, the man responsible for bringing

54:53

their ancestors here in 1860. Last

54:56

year, a new generation took control

54:58

of the Mayer family business and began to

55:00

explore reconciliation. A

55:02

few months ago, we witnessed a sit down between

55:05

the modern day mayors and the relatives

55:07

of the men and women, their ancestor

55:09

enslaved.

55:12

The meeting took place in a conference room

55:14

in Mobile's history museum this past

55:16

July.

55:17

I previously thought that

55:19

this day would never happen ladies

55:23

because people kept saying

55:25

the

55:26

mayors have kept quiet.

55:29

You know, we've tried to approach them.

55:31

They've only spoken through

55:34

their lawyers.

55:35

Pat Frazier was representing the Clutilda

55:38

descendants association along with Joycelyn

55:40

Davis and its president, Jeremy Ellis.

55:43

My hope is that this

55:45

can be an example of what

55:47

reconciliation looks like for

55:49

the nation

55:50

as well as start the healing process

55:53

for a number of descendants.

55:55

Everybody has this perception that, you know,

55:57

maybe we're angry.

55:59

angry at mayors?

56:02

I'm not angry at the mayors, I'm

56:04

just angry at the fact that it took so long to speak

56:06

out. We were silent for far

56:08

too long and we were distant for far

56:10

too long

56:11

and we're very

56:13

happy to be able to finally break the silence

56:16

and to narrow the distance.

56:17

That's Meg Mayer, great great granddaughter

56:19

of Timothy Mayer. She's an accountant

56:22

who now oversees the family's business holdings

56:24

and property along with her sister Helen,

56:26

an attorney.

56:27

I know that there's no words

56:30

that I can say that adequately address

56:32

the horrors that your ancestors

56:34

endured as a direct result of the actions

56:37

by my

56:38

ancestor, Timothy Mayer.

56:40

We can offer this generation's

56:42

heartfelt apology, but

56:45

it's easy to say things. We're going

56:47

to start

56:47

doing things. Can you talk a little bit about

56:50

why you were silent or why the family

56:52

was?

56:52

Yeah, so our family

56:55

is like some other families. We have lots

56:57

of layers and complexities and some

57:00

dysfunctions and we have

57:02

been in a lawsuit among

57:04

family members and that finally

57:07

resolved just a year ago. So now,

57:10

really it's our generation that's been able

57:13

to step up.

57:14

What does reconciliation look like for you?

57:16

Well, I told this to Anderson yesterday. I hope

57:19

he comes back in 10 years

57:21

and Africa Town is a thriving place

57:24

and that we've been able to play a part in

57:26

helping

57:27

that transformation. And

57:29

I think about building relationships and

57:31

seeing what ways we

57:34

can give back.

57:35

Helen grew up just a few miles from

57:38

Africa Town but had never been there until

57:40

last year when she started volunteering

57:42

at a food bank. As a first step

57:45

to make amends, in 2021

57:47

Helen and Meg sold this plot of land

57:49

in Africa Town to the city of Mobile

57:52

for $50,000, a

57:54

fraction of its appraised value. It'll

57:57

be home to community development organizations

57:59

and

57:59

the new food bank.

58:01

Meg and Helen still own about 14% of the

58:04

land in historic Africa

58:06

town. We have some ask,

58:09

some specific ask, that

58:11

we would like to see accomplished.

58:14

You're talking about plots of land? We believe that within

58:16

that historic district of Africa town, there

58:19

are parcels of land

58:21

that we should have ownership in. A

58:24

land trust? A land trust. A

58:26

land trust. That land would then

58:29

be leased out for a business.

58:32

Wouldn't it be great

58:33

if a company like Walmart

58:35

could partner with

58:39

descendants

58:41

and lease out land from descendants?

58:43

If there is a trust,

58:45

and there is land, and people can have

58:48

services that they don't currently

58:50

have, today you couldn't

58:52

get a loaf of bread

58:55

without having to drive miles away.

58:58

The street lights are so poor. The

59:01

roads are so bad. The dilapidated

59:04

housing is so

59:06

terrible. Or maybe there

59:09

can be educational trust funds that

59:11

somebody would go to college and not be saddled

59:14

with student loans.

59:16

I have a daughter,

59:17

and I believe that she

59:20

should have the same

59:22

level of education that the

59:24

mere family experienced. But

59:26

we believe that the same level of education

59:28

should be provided to all descendants.

59:31

A lot of focus, as it should be, is

59:34

on Africa town. But

59:35

as the president of the organization,

59:39

I have to be intentional about

59:42

those other

59:43

survivors that maybe didn't

59:46

grow up in Africa town, but they still

59:48

were impacted by this story.

59:51

So you're talking about 110 people were

59:53

on the cotilda. Their descendants

59:55

probably number in the thousands. How

59:58

is it possible for them to be affected by this?

59:59

for

1:00:01

these two people to

1:00:03

make it right for thousands

1:00:05

of people. We never asked that. There

1:00:08

are a number of conspirators who play the role.

1:00:10

You have to take a bite by bite, but

1:00:13

if you have an honest conversation,

1:00:16

at least we know what the parameters

1:00:18

are to work with them.

1:00:20

Do you think they bear responsibility for

1:00:23

the actions of Timothy Mayer and subsequent

1:00:25

generations?

1:00:26

So I feel like they can't be responsible

1:00:29

for what their forefathers did.

1:00:31

However, I want them

1:00:33

to recognize how that

1:00:36

behavior benefited them

1:00:38

and worked to the disadvantage

1:00:41

of us.

1:00:44

Just like they've had multiple generations

1:00:46

of wealth. The original slaves

1:00:49

and their descendants haven't.

1:00:51

The inability to purchase land...

1:00:54

Couldn't build on anything. And intergenerational

1:00:56

wealth passed down for real estate. None of that. Are

1:01:00

there parcels of land in Africa

1:01:03

Town that you all are financially dependent

1:01:05

on, that you're making money from?

1:01:08

I think I've had to review that better,

1:01:10

since I have just taken on this new role.

1:01:12

And so there's still so much that I'm learning. We're

1:01:15

still keeping an open mind and

1:01:16

working on figuring

1:01:19

out next steps. And I'm

1:01:21

not shutting the door on anything. You said

1:01:24

you don't hold Helen and Meg responsible,

1:01:27

but you are asking them to pay reparations.

1:01:30

It's reconciliation. I've never used the word

1:01:32

reparation.

1:01:33

I'm asking

1:01:35

for land that's undeveloped.

1:01:38

That's been undeveloped for decades.

1:01:41

What is the difference between reconciliation and reparations?

1:01:43

I think reparations encompasses

1:01:46

a lot more.

1:01:47

I think it's more than just land. I think

1:01:49

that when we talk about reparations, we

1:01:52

need to talk about the mental health aspect

1:01:54

of things and the mental tragedy

1:01:58

that folks have endured. What do

1:02:00

you say to somebody who's watching this, who's

1:02:02

white, and thinks,

1:02:05

this is scary, that I can

1:02:07

be held financially liable for something

1:02:09

a great-great-great-grandparent

1:02:11

did that I didn't even know

1:02:13

about or I just learned about? Our

1:02:16

actions can show them that it's something

1:02:18

that can be done, and this is what

1:02:20

reconciliation and healing looks like for

1:02:22

those that have been impacted through generations,

1:02:26

right? And all of the conversation

1:02:29

was about land or possible scholarships

1:02:31

for descendants' children. Joycelyn

1:02:33

Davis wanted the mayors to remove their

1:02:35

property markers in Africa Town.

1:02:37

How would you feel if you were

1:02:39

going into a neighborhood and you saw

1:02:41

the

1:02:42

enslavers' name on

1:02:44

almost every corner that you passed?

1:02:48

You know, it's like a constant

1:02:50

reminder.

1:02:52

I mean, I would hate it. It's

1:02:54

like a hmm.

1:02:56

You know, it's like,

1:02:57

oh, wow. Is it a hmm or

1:02:59

are you

1:03:01

f-ing kidding me? Both.

1:03:05

It's a little of both.

1:03:07

We can work

1:03:09

to remove those monuments. I mean,

1:03:11

I know that's a small step, but that

1:03:13

it's not something you have to see every day.

1:03:15

And so that's the first step that we can take. I

1:03:17

can't change the street signs because that's the city.

1:03:20

The descendants also wanted to know about any

1:03:22

artifacts that might have belonged to their ancestors

1:03:25

or from the Clotilda that were kept or

1:03:27

hidden away by past generations of

1:03:29

mayors.

1:03:31

Are there artifacts that you have? We

1:03:33

do not have any artifacts that I'm aware of.

1:03:36

We've looked very hard.

1:03:38

I can't believe that there aren't family

1:03:41

relics.

1:03:42

I just want to think that people

1:03:45

preserve things of some

1:03:47

significance.

1:03:48

And that would be important to you.

1:03:50

Absolutely. A lot of people are trying

1:03:53

to learn about their ancestors. Well,

1:03:54

I can tell you, we're continuing to look

1:03:57

as we go through stuff. One of the

1:03:59

few artifacts

1:03:59

they've found so far is this cane,

1:04:02

which belonged to Timothy Mayer's brother,

1:04:04

Burns Mayer, a man who enslaved

1:04:07

Pat Frazier's great-great-grandmother, Lottie

1:04:09

Denison.

1:04:10

Pat, is this something you want to see? I

1:04:12

want to see it. So

1:04:15

this is the cane that belonged

1:04:17

to the man who purchased

1:04:19

your great-great-grandmother? My answer,

1:04:21

exactly.

1:04:24

Thank you. Sure.

1:04:28

But so I could touch something like that?

1:04:30

Well, it makes

1:04:32

me sad

1:04:33

because it just really makes you

1:04:35

remember the

1:04:37

hardship. I

1:04:40

can hear the sadness. Yeah, I'm

1:04:42

very sad. The

1:04:45

meeting lasted about two hours, and

1:04:47

though no financial commitments were made, the

1:04:49

mayors have begun removing their property

1:04:51

markers and are

1:04:53

donating more land around the food bank. In

1:04:57

addition to the descendants, the mayors say they're

1:04:59

consulting with financial planners and

1:05:01

other community development organizations

1:05:03

in Africa Town to weigh their

1:05:05

next steps. What are your

1:05:08

biggest concerns? What are the

1:05:10

calculations you're making? We

1:05:12

don't

1:05:12

want to generate conflict because we do

1:05:14

know that there are different organizations.

1:05:17

So that's my biggest concern, is how do we

1:05:19

not cause conflict

1:05:21

working with us? It's just really makes

1:05:24

you remember the

1:05:25

hardship. I

1:05:28

can hear the sadness. Yeah, I'm

1:05:31

very sad. The

1:05:33

meeting lasted about two hours, and

1:05:35

though no financial commitments were made, the

1:05:37

mayors have begun removing their

1:05:39

property markers and

1:05:42

are donating more land around the food bank.

1:05:45

In addition to the descendants, the mayors say

1:05:47

they're consulting with financial planners and

1:05:49

other community development organizations

1:05:52

in Africa Town to weigh their

1:05:54

next steps. What are your biggest

1:05:56

concerns? What are the calculations you're

1:05:58

making?

1:05:59

making. We

1:06:01

don't want to generate conflict because we do

1:06:03

know that there are different organizations.

1:06:05

So that's my biggest concern is how do we not

1:06:08

cause conflict

1:06:10

working with everyone? No,

1:06:12

I totally understand. They've

1:06:14

come to the table trying to do the right thing

1:06:17

and they want to be intentional with

1:06:20

the decisions that are made. So I totally

1:06:22

understand that perspective. I

1:06:23

mean I think some of it is just

1:06:25

like red tape. I mean if we have

1:06:27

to like do a transfer of property you

1:06:29

just want to I guess ensure that you

1:06:31

know everything's being done correctly and

1:06:34

this is going to take some time because it's the right

1:06:36

thing to do.

1:06:37

And I agree that it's not easy

1:06:39

work.

1:06:41

Even the ask is

1:06:44

what is it easy right? That's not

1:06:46

an easy thing to do. In your dream,

1:06:49

Africa Town would become a thriving community.

1:06:51

Yes, again. Do you think

1:06:53

these conversations need to be had across the

1:06:55

nation? Absolutely.

1:06:58

Absolutely.

1:07:00

And that's something that we failed to do

1:07:02

in this country and there is

1:07:04

some misconception on the part I think

1:07:07

of a lot of people that those

1:07:09

are just some greedy ancestors

1:07:11

that are trying to get some handouts.

1:07:14

They want some more handouts.

1:07:17

Let me be very clear. We

1:07:20

did not come to the table saying we

1:07:22

want everything.

1:07:25

We were very intentional about

1:07:28

what those ass were and

1:07:30

so we're just coming to the table reasonably,

1:07:33

respectfully and authentic.

1:07:42

I'm Cecilia Vega.

1:07:45

We'll be back next week with another edition of 60

1:07:48

Minutes. Happy Thanksgiving.

1:07:52

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1:08:16

Barrymore, host of the

1:08:18

Drew Barrymore Show and welcome

1:08:21

to the Drew Barrymore Show Podcast.

1:08:24

Stream from the car, the train,

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know. Whatever you're into, just

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1:08:35

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