0:01

From Schwartz Media, I'm Ashlyn McGee. This

0:03

is 7am. The

0:11

tasering of a 95-year-old grandmother, the double

0:13

murder of a Surrey Hills couple, the

0:15

Bruce Lerman defamation trial and now the

0:17

spike in domestic violence. These have

0:20

been some of the biggest stories in Australia over the

0:22

past 12 months. And all

0:24

of them have drawn in this one

0:26

very powerful woman, Karen Webb, the Commissioner of

0:28

NSW Police. The

0:31

veteran cops found herself at press conferences

0:33

and interviews having to defend herself and

0:36

the force to a national audience. Today's

0:39

senior reporter for the Saturday paper Rick

0:42

Morgan on who Karen Webb really is

0:44

and how she climbed her way

0:46

through the Vipers Nest of the NSW Police Force. It's

0:54

Friday, May 10. Rick,

1:01

people all around the country would have

1:04

been seeing a whole lot more of

1:06

NSW Police Commissioner Karen Webb than they're

1:08

probably used to. So to

1:10

start with, talk me through the events that

1:12

have thrust her into the spotlight. I

1:14

mean, I guess unless you're a seasoned cop watcher, the

1:16

name Karen Webb really didn't mean anything to you except

1:18

for maybe a few grabs on the nightly news. During

1:21

her first year as a NSW Commissioner. But I guess

1:23

you can probably say that people started to see a

1:26

lot more of her almost exactly

1:28

a year ago, around this time, May

1:30

last year, when the 95 year old

1:32

great grandmother Claire Nolan was

1:35

tased, allegedly by a NSW

1:37

Police Officer. And she died a

1:39

week later in hospital. The elderly

1:41

woman who was tased by a NSW

1:43

Police Officer in the state's Snowy Mountains

1:45

region has died in hospital. The

1:48

announcement came just hours after the officer who

1:50

tased her at her nursing home in Cooma

1:52

was charged. Now, Karen Webb, who's

1:54

been in the job really just for a year at

1:56

this point, found herself very

1:59

early on defending. not only obviously the

2:01

conduct of the alleged conduct of her own officers,

2:03

but also the early media release

2:05

that was drafted by the NSW Police

2:07

Media team and the former spin doctor

2:10

there, Liz Degan, and approved

2:12

by the Deputy Commissioner, David Hudson, which went

2:14

out to journalists to indicate that something had

2:16

gone on in Kuma at the nursing home

2:18

there. But that release made no

2:20

mention whatsoever of the fact that a TASER, a

2:22

police TASER, had been deployed. And it

2:25

made no mention of the fact that an officer's

2:27

employment was at that point currently under review. I'd

2:30

like to start by saying that we all care

2:33

for and share

2:35

the concerns of what happened to

2:37

Mrs Nolland in Kuma. And

2:40

Webb later said that this was because Nolland's

2:42

large extent of family had not been informed

2:44

of the manner in which she had been

2:46

hospitalised and that police did

2:48

not want that family learning of it

2:50

from the media. Well firstly

2:52

there is a need, immediate

2:55

need that the family were

2:57

notified first and

2:59

that was respect for the family. They've

3:01

got a big family that is dispersed around

3:04

NSW and other places and

3:06

that took some time. But

3:08

of course senior officers had already attended

3:10

the hospital where Claire Nolland was at that

3:13

point. And later that

3:15

week on a Saturday

3:17

morning Webb again found herself right in the

3:19

middle of the media spotlight during this investigation

3:21

when she was asked whether she should watch

3:24

the body cam footage. And Webb

3:26

told reporters that that made 20 press

3:28

conference I don't really intend to know. I've

3:31

heard what's in the body worn and I don't

3:33

see it necessary that I actually view it. Now

3:36

of course that made a lot of people very angry because

3:38

it seemed to them to suggest a

3:40

commissioner who just didn't want to see

3:43

for herself the cold hard reality of what

3:45

had happened. Her defenders say

3:47

that she was actually just trying to project this

3:49

kind of impartial confidence in the investigative process and

3:51

that if she had to make a decision she

3:54

didn't want that to have been I guess infected

3:56

by any view that she might have formed by

3:58

watching that footage. But

4:00

really this is the first moment that she goes

4:02

on to the public consciousness as

4:04

the commissioner for the country's

4:06

largest and oldest police force.

4:09

...the bodies of Jessie Baird and Luke Davies

4:11

have finally been found a week

4:14

after the couple disappeared from a Paddington

4:16

home. And then of course after

4:18

that she becomes embroiled in more

4:20

national global stories including the alleged

4:22

total murder of a couple in

4:24

surreal fire serving police officers. Why

4:26

did it take you three days

4:28

to front up over an alleged

4:31

double murder involving one of your

4:33

own? Yeah well Steph as

4:35

you point out there's been a very

4:37

active investigation and it's only been today

4:39

that we've located the bodies of Jessie

4:41

and Luke. ...then have been

4:44

ducked becoming embroiled in the Bruce

4:46

Lerman defamation trial. Breaking news and

4:48

the senior media adviser just hired

4:50

by the New South Wales police force has

4:53

lost the job before he even got started.

4:55

You point out that a former Channel 7

4:57

journalist Steve Jackson on an interim basis

4:59

has been barred by controversy. It's made

5:02

of stabbing attacks in Sydney. About

5:04

3.30 this afternoon a

5:06

male with a knife entered the

5:08

Westfield Shopping Centre at Bonsai Junction.

5:11

And of course the greatest ongoing rolling

5:13

crisis in policing which is the

5:16

spike in domestic violence including the

5:18

alleged murder of Molly Tyfist in

5:20

New South Wales. The Premier has ordered

5:23

an urgent review of New South Wales

5:25

bail laws following this week's murder of

5:27

Forbes mother Molly Tyfist. Her

5:29

accused killer was freed by a court

5:31

earlier this month a decision made by

5:33

a registrar who was standing in for

5:35

a magistrate. All of which happened in

5:37

April. In

5:40

so many of these stories Karen Webb's become such

5:43

a public figure and she's really copped it from

5:45

some sections of the media and the public. Why

5:48

do you think that is Rick? She just

5:50

hasn't really played the game that so many of

5:52

her predecessors have played which is courting particularly

5:55

the right wing conservative media.

5:58

We're talking Talkback Radio Station 2GB. the

6:00

Daily Telegraph which is the major daily tabloid

6:02

in Sydney, she hasn't really done

6:04

that in the way that her predecessors Mick Fuller

6:06

and Andrew Scipione did. But there's also

6:09

no doubt that some of her

6:11

woes have been self-inflicted. Now

6:14

if you go back to the double murder of

6:16

the Sorry Eels couple which happened right

6:18

on the eve of Mardi Gras, you've got all

6:20

this tension between the police and the queer community

6:22

and you've got this horrific act of violence which

6:24

is allegedly conducted by one of their own officers.

6:27

And Karen again comes under increasing

6:29

media scrutiny about why she's remained

6:32

quiet for apparently so long into

6:34

this investigation and then comes out

6:36

and is asked about all of

6:38

this stuff on breakfast television and she invokes

6:40

the touring mega pop star Taylor Swift to say

6:42

you know haters are going to

6:44

hate. There will always be haters, haters like

6:46

to hate isn't that what Taylor says? But

6:49

I've got a job to do as I said it's a big job

6:52

this is just one of many jobs.

6:54

We actually had seven murders last week.

6:57

And of course it's just so tone deaf

6:59

in the context of what has just happened.

7:01

I'm the commissioner, like I said

7:05

the haters are going to hate

7:07

and I've got

7:09

the confidence of the minister and

7:11

the premier and I've got a job to

7:13

do and really as I said the important

7:16

thing this is really about these families and

7:18

not just the families, the

7:20

friends and the gay community.

7:22

And of course this then segues into

7:24

another element of the criticism which is

7:26

that Karen Webb doesn't know how to

7:28

handle the media and has therefore blamed

7:31

her own spin doctors for letting her

7:33

down. So Liz Deganewie mentioned help draft

7:35

the Claire Noll and Taser police media

7:37

release. She's been sacked by Karen Webb

7:39

and now there's a new advice that's

7:41

been brought in and the process of

7:43

being hired is basically signed the documents,

7:45

they're doing final checks and his name

7:47

is Steve Jackson and he's

7:49

just about to start when he gets

7:52

dragged in by a bitter former

7:54

colleague Taylor Orback Who

7:56

signs an affidavit? several affidavits

7:58

in the. Information Proceedings Evolving

8:01

Bros Lemon and Channel Ten. Or

8:03

back next night. And

8:06

background. Me about thirty Jackson's

8:09

appointments to the three hundred

8:11

thousand dollars a year job

8:13

encounter, webs, office and stay.

8:15

Jackson's position is been terminated

8:17

says. Dr. since

8:19

he became commissioner nearly twenty twenty

8:22

two and now after see Jackson

8:24

was terminated, she's on to her

8:26

fifth chief me advisor into two

8:28

years and that is not that

8:30

temporary employment. Okay say is he

8:33

clearly has a bit of immediate problem.

8:35

She'll have good relationships with the have

8:37

made your advisors or journalist by the

8:39

sound of it. but parking That from

8:41

my man? What kind of police can

8:43

be snape easy. So

8:46

with things get really interesting bits. The

8:48

oldest place within the country. As I

8:51

mentioned in she's the first woman commissioner

8:53

in it's one hundred sixty year history.

8:56

And there is still after all these

8:58

decades this huge cultural and policy shit

9:01

the needs to happen and insane or

9:03

that. She's kind of

9:05

come into this position against

9:07

to other blokes who for

9:09

vying for the top job.

9:11

She's got an unexpectedly and

9:13

to rise through what many

9:15

people call the unemployment is

9:17

nest of the internal political.

9:20

To get those top job

9:22

is both an achievement and

9:24

also a source of ongoing

9:26

ammunition I guess for people

9:28

who. Want? Bring a damn. After

9:35

the break, what is Karen? Web? Thrive

9:37

Zero Five Business? Tell us about the

9:39

kind of police officer she is. The.

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saturday papers food at it as a

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thesaturdaypaper.com.au slash

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offer. The Saturday Paper. No

10:37

hot takes. So,

10:40

Rick, this job of New South Wales Police

10:42

Commissioner, you've said that being in that seat

10:44

can expose you to a bit of a

10:46

viper's nest. Tell me more about

10:48

why that's the reputation of the job. This

10:51

is what I'm really interested about in this story. Like,

10:53

you know, there's really no one in politics

10:55

who knows that better than Federal Green

10:57

Senator and former New South Wales Uppe

11:00

House member David Shubridge, who

11:02

was actually involved in this series of ongoing

11:04

inquiries into the New South Wales Police Force.

11:06

And he said to me, he said, some

11:08

of the most unprincipled and aggressive internal politics

11:10

that I've ever seen occurs in

11:13

the upper reaches of the New South Wales Police

11:15

Force. The biggest

11:17

example of this, really, and it was kind of

11:19

consumed so much of my early career when

11:21

I was working in Sydney for mainstream newspapers, was

11:24

the tussle for succession that happened when Andrew

11:27

Scipione was commissioner and he was commissioner for

11:29

10 years from 2007. Now, he kind of

11:31

had two popular

11:35

choices for successor. His

11:38

anointed successor was Kath Byrne, who at

11:40

one time headed the Internal Investigations Unit.

11:42

She had a counter-terrorism, which is an

11:44

important string in the bow of anyone

11:46

who wants to lead the New South Wales Police Force.

11:49

But also, she was going head to head, essentially,

11:51

with another deputy commissioner,

11:53

Nick Coldis. And

11:55

to say there was bad blood between them doesn't

11:57

really do it justice. They hated each other. The

12:00

main source of anger between the

12:02

two of them is 2000 Sydney Olympics. The

12:05

city's on show, everyone's having a time of their lives, so

12:07

I've been told I washed it at home in Queensland. But

12:11

everyone was apparently very happy and the city was very proud

12:13

of itself. But at that time, in September 2000, there

12:16

is a secret warrant drawn up.

12:19

It's called the Bell Warrant to secretly

12:22

tape, bug and

12:24

otherwise record covertly 112 serving

12:26

police officers. And

12:30

two civilians by this kind of

12:32

Operation Mascot. Now the team

12:34

leader of Operation Mascot in the internal division

12:37

of the NSW Police Force was Capburn. She

12:40

was involved in authorizing this warrant. She had

12:42

people, more senior people above her who were

12:44

her bosses, but she was the team leader. One of

12:46

the 46 people who were named on that warrant,

12:48

who should never have been on that warrant because

12:52

there was no valid reason for them to have been on

12:54

that warrant was Nick Kaldus. Both

12:56

of them became Japanese commissioners. Both of

12:58

them have hated each other ever since.

13:00

Capburn previously said that she had a

13:02

reasonable suspicion that he was involved in

13:04

corruption, which she admitted under Parliamentary inquiries,

13:07

deputy chaired by David Shubridge, that that is now false.

13:09

And she accepts that that was a false suspicion, but

13:11

she said that she held it reasonably at the time.

13:14

And Kaldus, of course, says that Capburn used

13:17

the secret power of that job to

13:20

bring down her enemies and

13:22

the enemies of her life. He

13:25

was cleared completely by that inquiry, deputy

13:27

chaired by Shubridge. His

13:29

name should never have been on that warrant. The

13:32

warrant was not validly held, and

13:34

it became this weeping sore within

13:36

NSW Police that just never closed.

13:40

Kaldus leaves the force very

13:42

shortly after the Parliamentary inquiry. Capburn

13:45

stays, but doesn't get the

13:48

top job. That goes to a guy called Mick Fuller. So

13:51

the two big contenders are just... they're gone. And

13:54

Mick Fuller reigns supreme. So

13:57

that's quite a lot of drama for Mick Fuller getting to the

13:59

top job. Is there as much

14:01

drama to the story of Karen Webb getting to

14:03

the top job? Yes,

14:06

I mean there was never going to be a not going to be,

14:08

right? So Mick Fuller, there are those

14:10

who believe that Mick Fuller had his own favourites, as you

14:12

tend to do when you're in those jobs. Now

14:14

Mick Fuller also apparently broke what is

14:16

unwritten convention within the New South Wales

14:19

Police, is that if you

14:21

know you're going, and he did, he'd

14:23

announced his retirement by April 2022 and

14:25

it was eventually brought forward. But

14:27

he knew he was going and in the 12

14:29

months before he left, he installed a bunch of

14:31

people to very powerful positions. He elevated people to

14:33

Assistant and Deputy Commissioner levels across

14:35

the force. Now that's a pretty big no-no, because

14:38

the idea is that you're meant to leave those

14:40

positions for the next commissioner to shape the force

14:42

they want. One of the people

14:44

that he promoted was Mick Willing. And so Mick

14:46

Willing is this big figure, he's been groomed for the

14:48

job according to people who know him and

14:51

he was the only name out of the three

14:53

candidates, including Karen Webb, that

14:55

actually went forward on the six

14:58

person panel as the preferred candidate

15:00

for the Commissioner of New South Wales Police. Now

15:04

despite the panel's recommendation, the top job

15:06

has always been a political appointment and

15:09

the New South Wales Premier Dominic Perratae,

15:11

who was lobbied very hard to pick

15:13

Willing, including apparently by the

15:15

broadcaster Alan Jones in one account that was given to

15:17

me, Perratae wanted to go with

15:20

someone different and he chose Webb. Now

15:22

very soon after she was appointed, Webb

15:24

tears up Mick Willing's contract. He's the Deputy

15:27

Commissioner still. She says she

15:29

phones him and the version of the story

15:31

I've heard from multiple people is that she's

15:33

phoned him to explain that he would no

15:35

longer be employed by the force, that

15:38

she didn't have to give him a reason, but

15:40

that he's not part of the future. And

15:42

his email will shut off about half an hour later. So

15:45

one of the main rivals of Karen

15:47

Webb is effectively gone. So

15:49

she's a surprise pick and there's some messiness around how

15:52

she gets into the top job, but almost

15:54

everyone I spoke to agree that she's a generational

15:56

change in the type of leader that New South

15:58

Wales Police has had. In

16:01

terms of her beliefs as a police officer, I think

16:03

they're very important given the context that we've

16:05

had this recent spate of violence, gendered

16:07

violence against women, and

16:09

she has from the very first day in the

16:11

job but also throughout her career has made this

16:13

one of her focuses. She calls

16:16

it the silent scourge of domestic violence which now

16:18

when she talks to people in her own force

16:20

around the state generally makes up

16:22

about 60% of

16:25

general duties policing across New South

16:27

Wales. So it is the

16:30

biggest thing they do and

16:32

I do believe that she cares

16:34

about it and that change can

16:36

happen, how quickly, how much,

16:38

how soon, we don't know, and almost

16:42

immediately after finishing

16:44

writing this story an

16:46

officer in New South Wales was charged

16:48

with stalking and intimidation offences

16:51

and illegally accessing information within the

16:53

New South Wales Police database which

16:57

just kind of goes to show that there

16:59

is this ongoing problem and it lives everywhere

17:01

including within the force that Karen Webb now

17:04

leads. So Rick

17:06

whether the version that we're seeing playing out

17:09

is sort of the, I guess

17:11

a fair representation of the type of police force

17:13

she wants to be running or not. Put that

17:15

to one side, there is no doubt that some

17:17

sections of the community are really unhappy with New

17:19

South Wales Police. Just how

17:22

seriously do you think she has

17:24

to take that? How seriously does New South Wales Police

17:26

have to take that? I think they

17:28

have to take it very seriously because I mean you

17:31

see this in examples around the world but also

17:33

in various studies and whatnot. Power

17:35

just exerted for its own sake does not work

17:38

and so you can't just have a force that rules by

17:40

decree right? You can't have cops just turn up and

17:43

arrest people or lock them up because

17:45

someone for them and that's what we see happening all

17:47

the time and I think someone like

17:49

Karen Webb needs to take that very seriously because

17:52

we are living in an extraordinary era I think

17:54

where people are not inclined to trust institutions

17:57

full stop and certainly not

17:59

ones with running. on the board when it

18:01

comes to systemically or otherwise

18:04

violating the rights of the people they're meant

18:07

to be protected. Thanks

18:11

for your

18:14

time, Rick. Thank you, Ash. Appreciate

18:18

it. Winnie

18:28

Dunn has made a career out of

18:30

helping others find their literary voice, and

18:32

now it's her turn in the

18:34

spotlight. This week on Read This,

18:36

join me, Michael Williams, as I chat

18:38

with Winnie about her debut. Find

18:41

it wherever you listen. Also

18:45

in the news today, the Federal

18:47

Government is facing criticism for

18:50

its newly unveiled gas-led transition

18:52

plan, with some Labor backbenchers

18:54

raising concern that Australia needs

18:56

to be moving away from

18:58

fossil fuels. Labor's

19:00

future gas strategy includes initiatives

19:02

to increase the extraction of

19:04

gas and promotes controversial

19:07

carbon capture and storage

19:09

measures. And the

19:11

Northern Territory could be getting an AFL

19:13

team within the next decade, according

19:15

to a business case published by

19:17

the AFL and the NT Government.

19:21

The report outlines aspirations for

19:23

a Darwin City stadium where

19:25

an NT AFL team would

19:27

be based. 7am

19:30

is a daily show from

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look at the living crisis as

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