0:00

Devin McBride, it's a huge day for

0:02

you. It is. It's D-Day.

0:05

How are you feeling? I feel

0:07

like I left it all on the field

0:10

in the sense that I am... I

0:13

don't like to admit it. And it's a man,

0:16

perhaps, this is soldered, but yeah, I'm

0:18

pretty tired. I've been

0:20

emotional the last week. Small

0:22

things have upset me. And

0:26

that's a good thing in some ways, because it means

0:28

that I've really gone as hard as I can to

0:32

achieve what I wanted to achieve. But I

0:35

can't say that, you

0:37

know, whatever happens today, put

0:39

it this way, it'll be hard to choke back

0:41

the tears, because while

0:44

it's not going to be completely over

0:46

today, it is the end

0:48

of a pretty long phase.

0:50

And yeah,

0:53

emotion is going to come out

0:55

either way. From

0:59

Schwartz Media, I'm Ashlyn McGee. This

1:01

is 7am. In

1:09

recent years, we've faced a reckoning over

1:12

the actions of some of our Special

1:14

Forces soldiers. From reputations as

1:16

war heroes, to allegations they

1:18

committed horrific war crimes against

1:20

civilians. David McBride

1:22

is the former military lawyer who

1:25

first gave journalists documentary evidence of

1:27

killings in Afghanistan. To

1:29

his supporters, he's a war crimes whistleblower,

1:31

but detractors say that was never his

1:33

motivation. During a

1:36

secretive national security trial, he pleaded guilty

1:38

to handing over those files, and

1:40

this morning his sentencing gets underway. Today,

1:43

David McBride on why he did it,

1:45

whether he has any regrets, and how

1:48

Australia keeps its secrets. It's

1:54

Monday, May 6th. David,

2:01

I just want you to take me back to 2011 first.

2:04

You're in the Army Legal Corps, posted

2:06

to Afghanistan. Back then,

2:08

what did you think about the war? When

2:11

you're a soldier, and I've always wanted to

2:13

be a soldier, love being a soldier, and

2:18

if there is a war, your country's fighting and you want

2:20

to be a part of it, I had a bit

2:25

of a dichotomy. I'd been

2:27

to Afghanistan in 2000 when

2:29

the Taliban were running it, as it making

2:31

documentaries. I'd seen a lot of the developing

2:33

world, and I'd

2:35

also been in the British

2:38

Army before that. So I came with

2:41

a fair bit of, I guess I was

2:43

realistic. I didn't think it was going to

2:45

be perfect, but I

2:48

had doubts about the

2:51

larger scale things in

2:53

that we were saying

2:55

we were winning when that

2:57

wasn't at all clear, and

2:59

I suspected it was a case

3:02

of just putting

3:04

out the good news message. And

3:08

politicians came to visit. The

3:10

Prime Minister, Julie Gillard, came

3:12

and the leader of the opposition, as

3:15

he was then, Tony Abbott came and we told

3:17

them how good everything was going. I

3:19

felt uncomfortable about that. The opposition leader,

3:22

Tony Abbott, has visited Australian

3:24

soldiers serving in Afghanistan. Amid

3:26

calls for more troops and equipment,

3:28

Mr Abbott encouraged the troops to

3:31

speak candidly about the situation on

3:33

the ground. I stand in humble

3:35

order of those who don't just

3:37

risk their injuries. I put

3:39

their lives on the line every

3:42

day, and I have a country. I

3:45

had no doubts about the bigger pictures in

3:47

the war to say how

3:50

much of this is windowed dressing for

3:52

domestic political audiences and how much of

3:54

this is actually trying to do

3:57

a good job And actually...

4:00

The situation. And.

4:02

They you're watching All of this happens.

4:04

Was. There a particular thing that happened

4:06

in. Your work environmental the crossed

4:09

your desks. That. Really

4:11

with a turning point for you. It

4:14

was access I've forgotten all about up a

4:16

little, wrote my book. In two thousand and

4:18

eleven they've been there was something happens and

4:20

I'm. One. Of the judges and

4:22

lawyers the guns as the prisons they

4:24

ask and presents and in son the

4:26

people we have caps and not a

4:28

mistreated. And someone

4:30

was born into me fame and

4:32

as he. Started.

4:35

Explaining story was as

4:37

much as times. But.

4:40

The void cities down. He

4:42

said all have been beaten by the

4:45

united said Ms. Hayes and he said

4:47

almost hung up from on the roof

4:49

of the prison but with manacles or

4:51

less they're all die. And then I

4:53

came out with an iron bar best

4:55

me around the head and headscarves. He

4:58

had still fresh scars on his hand

5:00

and for scars on his his. now

5:02

as a legal system under the Geneva

5:04

Convention. See John. Ignore

5:06

that sour. Cream. And

5:09

easy wasn't bad guy prisoner, others

5:11

are in the sense that you

5:13

person he gets by this crisis

5:15

is was unreasonable allegations. Abuse.

5:19

And when I go back to buys. Ever.

5:21

Woman in Sobibor pension system. That

5:23

was surprising. Seats the seem to

5:25

be implied to me that I

5:27

need it's just me or why

5:29

about this. Sub. Was only

5:32

a small scene but I'm considering what

5:34

we now know about. Will been on

5:36

that it was. He was indicative as

5:38

decide. Does look under a

5:41

rock stand find out of ironic because

5:43

swam we don't want. Bad.

5:45

News stories. Now

5:50

than in two thousand and thirteen. They put on

5:52

a Sunday Times in the Rules of Engagement and

5:54

said something like. basically

5:57

it's was move was a very

5:59

one page thing and it said don't

6:01

murder at the bottom. And

6:04

I said what's this about? Because

6:06

according to all our reports there

6:08

hasn't been a single trial and

6:10

why are you putting out this thing? If everything's okay,

6:13

why are you reminding

6:15

people whether it's a new thing saying

6:17

don't murder? Has something happened? And

6:20

I was told no, no, no. And I

6:23

just thought that was strange. What's

6:25

something's going on? And then in

6:27

2013 suddenly

6:29

having not had a single

6:32

criminal investigation during a very

6:35

turbulent period where we now know that no

6:38

one would want to walk on. We

6:40

were investigating everything. It

6:42

looked like we were pretending to

6:45

care but we weren't

6:47

really caring because we weren't investigating some

6:50

things which looked highly suspicious. And

6:52

so I just started asking questions.

6:54

And then in September when I

6:56

was over there there was

6:58

a guy who'd done what

7:01

Manny sold us had done before. He

7:03

was just defending himself. And

7:06

it wasn't so much that

7:08

I had some sort of crystal ball or I

7:10

was in love with him or anything. There was

7:13

no evidence to suggest this was a murder. I

7:15

said this is strange.

7:18

And I didn't know what

7:20

was up but I suspected that

7:22

the investigations in 2013 were window

7:25

dressing for the media in

7:28

order to say look over here,

7:30

don't look over there. There

7:35

was whispers that there would be in 2012

7:37

there'd been a kill count competition to see

7:39

who could get eyes killed out in a

7:41

certain soldier in one. And

7:43

they also put the kill counts on the

7:46

door each day. When

7:48

they reiterated the rules of engagement in 2013,

7:52

in the context of all these

7:55

rumours, whispers seeing that kind of kill count

7:57

on the door there, Why

7:59

raise an issue? Them reiterating that it sounds

8:01

like maybe that was what was needed at

8:03

the time. Well. Why?

8:07

Didn't they investigate? Be our guys.

8:09

As I think someone's done something is

8:12

best to god. did you ever. Rise

8:14

at up the chain and say hey, he's what's

8:16

going on. Know I I didn't know

8:18

and as always a lawyer with a very

8:20

good Korea. And I want

8:22

keepers of is a perfect jobs may

8:24

I love that was half a way

8:26

all soldier and. I

8:29

didn't particularly want to rock the boat and

8:31

I suspected something big was up. Did

8:33

you see like some soldiers were being. Scapegoated.

8:36

When other soldiers were actually they're the

8:38

ones who during the really bad stuff.

8:41

yeah I had. Felt

8:43

like they are and didn't want certain

8:45

sign of soldiers come under in the

8:47

messing ice and they source of that

8:50

mana believes ways of a bulletin Bit

8:52

of a popular in that because as

8:54

an have a lot of a a

8:56

zero survived by wanted some nonentities to

8:59

be able to punish on the of

9:01

of again Double eight of them was

9:03

exactly. My.

9:06

Goal was always two sides are

9:09

leadership to Pbs again and I

9:11

still think I should be miss

9:13

gonna sic I probably knew about

9:15

been Robert Smith and on a

9:17

seat on they were doing window

9:19

dressing in our two thousand and

9:21

thirteen and. Add soldiers

9:23

are a problem and we asked

9:25

him with that. bad leaders are

9:27

much bigger problem. I

9:30

knew even when I was man and on a

9:32

scam like the something going on. And.

9:35

On and. It took me a marks on

9:37

you and at have to be doing. And

9:39

it would have to be an. Hour

9:42

and well resourced an

9:44

animal number. Of

9:47

documents attached to that to explain

9:49

what I was doing and to

9:51

be relatively carefully worded associate ones

9:53

a result. And so

9:55

after hours I would stylized I would

9:58

look sort of looking for. The

10:00

shine for the putting your career

10:02

at risk is putting my career

10:04

moises but on a job of

10:07

the defense forces to protect describe

10:09

some threats if we had as.

10:12

Late as two are

10:14

completely on. Political.

10:16

And dishonest. We're not doing

10:19

a job. And

10:21

say in preparing that report

10:23

saw leadership. That's very different to

10:26

going public with that same information told

10:28

me about when you decided. It

10:30

was something you wanted the public to

10:33

know about. Well. Soccer

10:35

ball, some. Are

10:37

needed A partner a good

10:39

investigative journalist looking to the

10:42

medical sought to get a

10:44

source in the minister's office

10:46

to find out where the

10:48

emails. Trials. Are what

10:51

i said is there was any bodies

10:53

and guy but in the your why

10:55

an arm in any one within the

10:57

within the suits i guess the parliament

11:00

ah and of seeing seeing knew what

11:02

was going on and and consider lot

11:04

so i wanted really good investigative journalist.

11:08

Not. To report the documents on law and

11:10

that to start looking into it. When

11:12

you did give them into the air

11:14

B C am today and I x

11:16

a former colleague of mine at the

11:18

Ip say what did you think when

11:21

the A B C published that story.

11:23

Or with he says reaction to it by

11:25

are disappointed with a story because it was.

11:29

It was. It was okay and was

11:31

good. It is something was happening. so

11:33

that was good that something was happening

11:35

and I didn't particularly like the emphasis

11:38

on the A or only on the

11:40

soldiers and non on the latest. Ah

11:42

on would have been the happiest I've

11:44

done. Birds but well Lilies have a

11:47

case to answer about whether my new

11:49

sky. The. Some of the

11:51

a critics say that he never said our

11:53

spies war crimes in the first place. When

11:55

you make of that. Was.

11:57

The more you know, ice. If

12:00

I say I was never out, some

12:02

expires rocks. And bad souls

12:04

to visit. This got a

12:07

point. To seize a

12:09

linked as a more komsomolets saddam story.

12:11

but the biggest story is a new

12:13

what and when I knew it. It's

12:17

not about a loss it's about the

12:19

next one of weed out as honest

12:22

trustworthy people who rarely eats i with

12:24

a straight as in charge of at

12:26

a sense when laxative. After

12:32

the break. Lights. As.

12:45

A seven I am listener. You're already familiar with

12:47

many of the journalists who worked with Settler Piper.

12:50

For. Limited time subscribe to a strike is

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leading independent news source the set of

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just two dollars, ten awake? simply

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13:20

key points. Sign up today at

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the Sunday paper.com.a You/newsletters. David.

13:26

You ended up pleading guilty to

13:28

three charges and you say sentencing

13:30

today and it's been months since

13:32

you entered that guilty play would

13:34

set. White been like. Ah,

13:37

up and down to now I

13:39

am. I've got no money Avast

13:41

majola Lost a was sightings en

13:43

los dos. Or most moss

13:45

in our like the sort of person. I

13:47

did some but I don't. I

13:50

recommend it if you want an easy ride.

13:52

It's not have a son away, the celebrity

13:55

or that. D C

13:57

going to prison. Yeah

14:00

I usually at me I got a bit

14:02

of a dichotomy of that I I am

14:04

I don't see it of saw walls of

14:07

numb. So. Much! Ah.

14:10

Obviously easy for page foul podium last moments

14:12

in the military on the riverbed dies in

14:14

a country so I guess it's not complain

14:16

about being put in prison and in some

14:19

ways you know they say are you going

14:21

to leave your life like it's share. Your.

14:24

Loss. I never really did that before.

14:27

And now at the last couple years

14:30

at least I have done that I

14:32

ever saw. Love watching a movie with

14:34

my daughter. Really frightening experience. unbelievably pile

14:36

on a video games together and and

14:39

on on. Love them! I

14:41

was always pretty assessment dead anyway but

14:43

I'm more so now I can't have

14:45

them on a mission to sit side

14:47

of things to them. I gave my

14:49

want them to to remember me and.

14:53

Well a nice because I really do love

14:55

every am. I loved every minute

14:57

Muslim I spend now on the phone my

14:59

dog one lot of things is gonna be

15:01

missing out on with my ah my dog

15:03

died on seat on the housing and I

15:05

can get him as drum. Registers and

15:07

assistance don't so they to me mid may.

15:11

Say. Given everything that's about

15:13

to happen today and when he

15:16

returns court to be sentenced to

15:18

have any regrets about leaking nice

15:20

documents. As this this this is

15:22

Chris Civil A. Look.

15:25

Like died, I died I I'm

15:27

I'm trying to get accountability at

15:29

the top that hasn't happened yet.

15:31

I'm saying that if I hadn't

15:33

done one have done it never

15:35

would have App and ah. On

15:38

since as such so I had to do

15:41

something on what did the best that I

15:43

can in the in the circumstances and now

15:45

I'm proud of myself standing up. I didn't

15:47

even know whether I could do it myself.

15:59

Soon. Since he started unfolding, we've

16:01

seen the release of the verse and. Report

16:04

which recommended the As Pay

16:06

investigate Thirty Six Mattis said

16:08

potential prosecutions. See think

16:10

we'll ever see these crimes prosecuted.

16:14

It's. Good question them on number and

16:16

non. Was. Some of my

16:18

friends put a that was somewhere friends I

16:20

am. Who are also sort of

16:22

on my side in a sense agitators, By

16:25

says the purpose of the bridge and report was

16:27

the put the International Criminal Court or. And

16:30

them. To might soon there

16:32

are no Mr Us. It does seem

16:34

strange madame. Ten years, eleven years they

16:36

sustained years after some of these things

16:39

happen the we still haven't Was on

16:41

the had one person size and he

16:43

was stars as a result in the

16:45

video. And.

16:47

Verge of have any that browsing reports

16:50

my harness of people do actually be

16:52

charged and not a nice. that was

16:54

the at bat muslim idea about bird

16:56

is a bit of us. Isn't

16:59

satisfactory that we haven't had more

17:01

time to said now that we

17:03

might not get convictions. But we

17:05

really do need gentleman. A

17:07

lot of words used to. Describe the David

17:10

Mcbride of it seems like assess

17:12

assess some. Nice. I'm not

17:14

so nice. That's another

17:16

whistleblower side. I'm here.

17:19

I'm Simon was would.

17:21

Use to describe yourself. Yeah, well. I'm

17:23

a soldier. I mean you have to

17:25

be bit of a sudden you're not

17:27

gonna get you know. Can I get

17:29

accountability? Justice? Is he just. And.

17:31

And miss, you read of a sauce

17:33

serves as it is, and a lot

17:36

of a slug, do you gotta do

17:38

what you gonna do in order to

17:40

get a result and? Tried

17:42

our yeah well I may not on the on

17:45

the kind of that are in the since dinner

17:47

I am out to try and of my to

17:49

defend forced to defend australia foreigners with makes me

17:51

try to. So here

17:54

are on doing more Like tend to make

17:56

this country about apply for nothing. Anyone can

17:58

find that on More Try. To

18:01

do what is right and maybe he's

18:03

there is an inquiry I will achieve

18:05

one on one on to would a

18:07

it's ah a lot on like. Ah,

18:11

Michael instances when I. Don't

18:16

think so much for the. Church. Like

18:19

you. Sloan.

18:26

Crosley known says is funny and

18:28

acidic personally says, but her new

18:30

memoir digs much deeper to examine

18:32

the loss of her best friend.

18:34

Join me, Michael Williams as I

18:36

chat with Sloan about a brief

18:38

is for people. Find. It

18:40

where the listen. Also

18:44

in the news today as dryly cel

18:46

twelve whole places in the latest world

18:48

ranking of press freedom and now sits

18:50

in thirty ninth place. The list

18:53

compiled by Reporters Without Borders that

18:55

now places Israeli below South Africa,

18:57

the United Kingdom, and Namibia. We

18:59

the organization sizing the course intimidation

19:01

of whistle blowers in the name

19:03

of protecting national security as a

19:05

fact. And

19:08

Finance Minister Katie Gala her announced

19:10

yesterday the government most last one

19:12

billion dollars from the budget. Bottom

19:15

line by reducing spending on external

19:17

consultants and contractors. The announcement follows

19:20

last year's revelations about misuses government

19:22

information by console since at Pwc

19:24

and a string of revelations about

19:27

government agencies spending without consulting firms.

19:29

I'm Aslan Mcgain sees these seven

19:32

am. See you again.