0:01

From Schwartz Media, I'm Ashlyn McGee. This

0:04

is 7am. A

0:10

small mystery of Australian politics this year

0:12

has been why Peter Dutton's first major

0:15

policy commitment since becoming leader of the

0:17

opposition was to promise nuclear power plants.

0:20

On the surface, it just doesn't seem like an

0:22

obvious vote winner. And early polling

0:24

shows most Australians are yet to be convinced.

0:27

But this may be less about votes and

0:30

more about holding the coalition together. With

0:32

the help of a lobby group most of us have never

0:34

heard of. Today, investigative journalist

0:36

and contributor to the monthly Marian

0:39

Wilkinson on the Coalition for Conservation

0:41

Lobby and their links to Peter

0:43

Dutton's nuclear promises. It's

0:51

Tuesday, May 7. Marian,

0:58

take me back to August last year. The

1:00

sun set on Sydney and there's this pretty

1:02

unusual tour underway at Taronga Zoo. Yeah,

1:06

a very interesting night it was all

1:08

around. So an

1:11

environmental charity that has been a

1:13

bit under the radar, it's called

1:15

the Coalition for Conservation, was

1:18

having a very big night

1:20

at the function centre at

1:22

Taronga Zoo in Sydney.

1:25

There was National Party

1:27

leader David Littleproud. There

1:29

was the opposition spokesperson

1:32

Ted O'Brien, who's their

1:34

energy spokesman. And

1:37

a guy called Larry Anthony,

1:39

who is chair of a

1:41

well-known lobbying company called SAS.

1:44

My name's Larry Anthony, I'm the chairman

1:46

of Coalition for Conservation. We

1:49

brought seven MPs here to the UAE,

1:52

not only to COP 28, but

1:54

to come out to do a Baraka here. And

1:57

he was better known up

1:59

until a few years. ago for

2:01

lobbying on behalf of fossil fuel

2:03

interest. But the whole idea

2:05

of this charity is

2:07

to get coalition people

2:10

who are interested in backing net

2:12

zero emissions into the big fold.

2:15

In Australia as we look forward to how

2:17

do we meet the challenges of getting to

2:19

zero carbon or getting to zero

2:22

in 2050, then you'd be like,

2:24

it's certainly something that we should

2:27

consider, particularly in Australia as

2:29

the high level. Something else was

2:31

also happening. For a lot of

2:34

environmentalists who were there that night,

2:36

it was one of the first times they

2:39

began to see that

2:41

the charity was pivoting to

2:43

a sort of pro-nuclear position.

2:47

And the charity's, I guess,

2:49

most influential patron, I'd probably

2:51

call him, Treveson Baker, is

2:55

a very well-known figure

2:57

in Australian energy circles,

2:59

but especially in Queensland

3:01

energy circles. He

3:03

was very big into coal-fired power

3:06

for many years. He's

3:08

now involved in the energy

3:11

transition, very forward-looking, but

3:13

he's got a particular passion about nuclear

3:15

energy. So let's talk a

3:18

little more about Treveson Baker, because he's a

3:20

really key character in this story, isn't he?

3:22

Yeah, he's a very well-known

3:24

businessman, as I said, in

3:27

energy circles. If

3:30

Australians want to seriously reduce CO2

3:32

emissions, then nuclear power generation

3:35

needs to be part of that mix. Treveson

3:39

Baker and a number of his

3:41

colleagues have got

3:44

a company called SMR

3:46

Technology, which has been

3:48

very strongly advocating for Australia

3:51

to reopen the nuclear debate

3:53

for some years. And

3:57

as Bob said, SMR Nuclear Technology provides

3:59

you... limited, which has

4:01

been backing away quietly for

4:04

about six years now, is

4:07

breaking new ground in getting the nuclear

4:09

ban in Australia removed

4:11

with parliamentary... Australia has

4:13

federal and state laws

4:16

prohibiting civilian nuclear power

4:18

in Australia. And

4:20

one of the key things

4:22

that they're advocating is the

4:24

overturning of those laws. And

4:27

this includes the idea, and it's not

4:29

unique to them, I have to say

4:32

that, that you can or should

4:34

be looking at putting small

4:36

nuclear reactors into

4:39

coal plants, old coal

4:41

generation plants, so

4:43

that they can act as backup

4:45

power, noting the fact that

4:47

these plants are already, you

4:50

know, have their connection lines because

4:52

they were, of course, the

4:55

centres of power generation in the

4:57

states. So this nuclear

4:59

plan that Treviss and Baker and the

5:01

Coalition for Conservation has been sprucing for

5:03

the past couple of years, it's sounding

5:05

eerily familiar to something that we're now

5:08

hearing in Canberra. Well,

5:11

what I found really interesting is

5:13

I went back to look at

5:15

their submissions to the parliamentary inquiries

5:17

in 2022, 2023, and going back

5:19

and looking at their submissions to

5:25

the New South Wales Parliament. And

5:29

a lot of the things that

5:31

Peter Dutton and Ted O'Brien

5:33

are now talking about in

5:36

their nuclear policy are

5:38

all set out in

5:40

the submissions that SMR

5:42

Technology, the company associated with

5:45

Treviss and Baker and his

5:47

colleagues, were making. And

5:49

at some time, we are looking

5:51

at all possible advanced

5:53

nuclear technologies, microreactors, small

5:55

modular reactors, and also next

5:58

generation large ones. They've

6:00

also been doing forums

6:02

in energy think tanks.

6:05

They've been putting a lot of work into

6:07

this and that's why when I saw

6:10

what Peter Dutton and Ted

6:12

O'Brien were advocating, it

6:14

was interesting to see how they lined up.

6:18

It's the latest technology that

6:20

has zero emissions and

6:23

it can firm up renewables in the

6:25

system. And

6:28

indeed I interviewed Bob Pritchard,

6:31

the chair of

6:33

the SMR technology company.

6:36

And he would not take credit for

6:39

influencing the opposition policy, but

6:42

he did concede that people would see a

6:44

remarkable similarity in their

6:47

submissions and big parts

6:49

of the coalition policy.

6:52

Let's just pause for a moment because we've talked

6:54

a little bit about these small or micro modular

6:56

reactors, but what actually are they? What do they

6:58

do? Well, the

7:00

idea is that they can make

7:03

nuclear energy essentially cheaper

7:06

and more flexible. This

7:09

is where all the thinking

7:11

is going now on nuclear

7:13

in part because whenever you

7:15

read a story about nuclear

7:17

power plants, they're either aging

7:19

and there's questions over their

7:21

safety and their longevity or

7:24

there's questions over the cost blowouts

7:26

with the new ones, many

7:28

of which have had cost blowouts over

7:31

the last few years. The

7:34

idea with these ones is they're about

7:36

a fifth of the size maybe. They're

7:39

a lot more flexible. They call them modular

7:41

because you can build them in sections and

7:44

then assemble them on site. They're

7:46

more transportable. And

7:48

their advocates argue they're safer.

7:51

It's really taken off in

7:54

places like France, the

7:56

UK and the

7:58

US. like Bill

8:01

Gates, the former Microsoft

8:03

chief. I hope people take

8:05

a hard look and

8:08

understand that the record, you know,

8:10

per unit of energy generated is

8:14

relatively quite good. He is

8:17

a massive advocate of what's

8:19

being called next generation nuclear

8:21

power. It's a challenge, but, you

8:23

know, I think the world is up to this

8:25

challenge. The critics say that's

8:27

all well and good. This is all

8:29

really interesting. And there are a lot

8:32

of climate scientists who support nuclear power to

8:35

deal with the climate change crisis and

8:37

to get to net zero. But

8:40

what the critics say is Australia

8:42

has no civilian nuclear

8:45

power industry. We're

8:47

starting from scratch. And

8:50

as yet, the commercial viability

8:53

of these small reactors has

8:57

not been proven. There is not yet

8:59

one commercially operating in the

9:02

world. After

9:05

the break, will the nuclear promise hold the

9:07

coalition together or just divide it further? Need

9:16

a reminder of what political leadership looks

9:18

like? Australia's master

9:20

of political satire, Jonathan Biggins,

9:23

is back embodying the iconic

9:25

Paul Keating, visionary, reformer and

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rabble-rouser. Due to overwhelming demand,

9:30

one-man comedy The Gospel According to Paul

9:32

is returning to the Opera House on

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from the 4th to 23rd of June

9:36

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your tickets now at sydneyobrahouse.com

9:41

for an unforgettable evening. For

9:44

Sloane Crozley, writing about the loss of

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a friend may not have provided catharsis,

9:49

but it did allow for the possibility of

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a better ending. is

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like those little chunks of chocolate that come with the bill.

10:03

I'm Michael Williams. Join me for this

10:05

week's episode of Read This as I

10:07

talk to Sloane Crozley about her latest

10:09

grief is for people. Listen

10:11

wherever you get your podcasts. Marion,

10:15

it sounds like this charity, the Coalition

10:17

for Conservation or C4C charity, it sounds

10:19

like it's been working behind the scenes

10:21

for a while now pushing its nuclear

10:23

agenda. Well the interesting

10:26

thing with the Coalition for Conservation, I

10:28

was told by a number of people

10:30

including some of their former board members

10:33

that the charity was not at

10:35

all interested in touching nuclear for

10:38

quite some time because they thought

10:40

it was too divisive within

10:42

the environment movement and also there

10:45

was no bipartisan support for it.

10:48

What changed was there was a

10:50

trip that Ted O'Brien did in

10:52

early 2023 where he first went

10:57

to Japan but then he went to the US where

10:59

he spoke to a number

11:01

of business people and government

11:03

officials involved in this

11:06

next wave of nuclear power.

11:09

One of them was one

11:12

in Idaho that had been

11:14

heavily pushed in the media.

11:17

Nuclear energy has been a staple in

11:19

Idaho for decades and that legacy continues

11:22

today. New developments in nuclear could

11:24

soon be making the energy more sustainable

11:26

and accessible for Idahoans and the rest

11:28

of the country. But

11:31

ultimately within months

11:33

of the trip that Ted

11:35

O'Brien and the C4C chief

11:38

executive had done to the US,

11:41

this project was a port.

11:45

Hi everyone, about a minute on bad

11:47

news in the US nuclear power sector.

11:49

Yesterday New Scale Power and the Utah

11:51

Association of Municipal Power Systems announced they

11:54

were canceling plans to build a new

11:56

scale reactor, a set of reactors at

11:59

a site in Idaho. Idaho. The

12:01

press release... And the reason it was put

12:04

was that it was

12:06

considered not commercially viable.

12:09

I was reading an account from

12:12

Bloomberg and the response

12:15

of the former head of that

12:17

project was, this is a

12:19

dead horse and we've got to get off it.

12:22

But now this did not

12:25

deter the advocates the charity

12:27

C4C had paid

12:30

for all these key coalition people

12:33

to go to the big

12:35

UN climate summit last November

12:37

in Dubai. According

12:39

to Ted O'Brien, he was there because he'd

12:41

had an invitation from

12:44

the World Nuclear

12:46

Association to speak at the

12:48

conference and C4C

12:50

was the host of the meeting where

12:52

he spoke there. So that

12:55

coming together of this would have been

12:57

a sort of rather obscure environmental

12:59

charity in Australia

13:02

with the coalition nuclear policy,

13:05

I think said a

13:07

lot. And it said to me, the

13:09

coalition knows they need

13:12

advocates out there pushing

13:14

the nuclear policy because at the moment

13:17

in Australia, there is no real

13:19

social license for it. And

13:21

what about inside the charity C4C? How's

13:24

it playing out there? It

13:26

has blown up inside the charity. There

13:29

have been a couple who have

13:31

made their differences

13:33

very, very well known.

13:35

And one of them, of course, is

13:37

a former New South Wales energy

13:39

minister, Matt Keene. He

13:42

is furious about what

13:44

happened inside the charity of

13:46

which he was an ambassador. Matt

13:49

Keene says supporting nuclear is

13:51

an attempt to delay and

13:53

defer responsible and decisive action

13:55

on climate change. It's

13:57

an attack on his federal counterparts. who've

14:00

made nuclear power a key part of

14:02

their energy plan. More

14:05

interestingly, the deputy chair of the

14:07

board of C4C resigned early this

14:09

year. The

14:13

deputy chair of the

14:16

C4C charity is in fact a

14:18

prominent New South Wales

14:20

solar scientist currently working

14:22

on Adani's solar energy program

14:24

in India. He

14:26

wrote this scathing op-ed piece

14:29

in the financial review attacking

14:31

the National Party position for

14:33

their nuclear pivot, which

14:37

again said he believed would

14:39

most likely slow down the

14:41

transition. And I'm

14:43

told that very shortly after that there

14:46

was quite a furious

14:48

disagreement between him, the

14:51

chair and the CEO and

14:54

the deputy chair then resigned as

14:56

well. So there's a

14:58

lot of internal ruckions in the charity

15:00

and I think they

15:03

reflect the internal ruckions

15:06

that are going to keep

15:08

coming in the coalition and

15:10

particularly in the Liberal Party

15:12

over the nuclear policy. So

15:15

approaching the next election, how does Peter

15:17

Dutton and the Coalition for Conservation actually

15:20

try to sell this to the public?

15:22

What's their messaging going to be? The

15:25

messaging from the charity, which I think

15:27

is reflected in some of

15:30

the messaging being put even

15:32

by moderate Liberals, is that

15:35

nuclear energy is a way to

15:37

get to net zero. But

15:40

there's very few climate scientists

15:42

in Australia who have put

15:44

their hands up and said

15:46

it's a good idea. Now

15:49

the $64,000 question is will it convince

15:51

the voters, especially the voters in marginal

15:53

seats, and that is going to be a tough

15:55

one. For Peter Dutton and Peter

15:57

O'Brien they have to make this a cogent.

16:00

policy by the time of the

16:02

election and people will

16:04

be asking, Labour will be asking,

16:06

the Greens will be asking, the

16:08

independents will be asking, where

16:11

do you want to cite these things? And

16:13

we all remember that we

16:15

haven't even been able to get a

16:18

permanent nuclear waste dump in Australia, the

16:20

last effort in South Australia fell over.

16:23

So we can't

16:25

do that. How are we

16:27

going to decide whether

16:29

we can cite a

16:31

small nuclear reactor on

16:34

which former coal plant

16:37

in New South Wales, in Queensland or

16:40

in Victoria? I think it's

16:42

going to be hard. Marian, you've

16:44

been reporting this story and indeed reporting in this

16:47

space for quite a while now. If you

16:49

just really zoom out for a moment, why is the

16:52

coalition pushing so

16:54

hard on nuclear? Why nuclear? I

16:57

think it is a way

16:59

quite simply of trying to

17:01

hold the coalition together on

17:04

energy and climate policy. I

17:07

think the idea was that

17:10

if we put forward nuclear power,

17:12

we can pull in the climate

17:14

denialists because we can keep gas

17:16

and coal until late in the

17:19

2030s or 2040s and then whack in

17:21

nuclear. On the other

17:23

hand, with the moderates, it appealed

17:25

to them on two basis. One

17:27

is that, hey, if

17:30

we say we're putting nuclear into the midst,

17:32

we can keep our commitment that we

17:35

will get to net zero by 2050.

17:37

And of

17:39

course, to give Dustin

17:41

and O'Brien a platform

17:43

to savage labour

17:45

on what they

17:48

call their reckless renewable policy.

17:51

And that is we must

17:53

decarbonise the electricity system really

17:55

quickly, 82% by 2030. So

18:02

when Dutton and O'Brien think about it,

18:05

by pushing nuclear, it gives them

18:07

a platform to say, we are

18:10

going to defend farmers from

18:12

reckless renewable developments across

18:15

the farmlands, offshore

18:17

from their regional communities, and

18:21

we are going to

18:23

stop the nation

18:25

facing blackouts, facing

18:27

uncertainty, facing higher

18:29

electricity prices, facing

18:32

de-industrialisation, which is all going

18:34

to come from the reckless renewable

18:36

policy of Chris Bowen

18:38

and Anthony Albanese. The slight

18:40

flaw in the project is

18:43

will it hold their coalition together because

18:45

there's a lot of individual,

18:48

national and liberal members, I think,

18:50

quite worried about how push for

18:52

civilian nuclear power is going to

18:55

go down in their electorates. Marian,

18:59

thanks so much for your time today. Thanks.

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in the news today, Treasurer Jim Chalmers has

19:30

said a surplus at next week's budget is

19:32

within reach, signalling the government may once again

19:35

take in more revenue than it spends, allowing

19:37

it to pay down some debt. But

19:39

he promised the budget also wouldn't be

19:41

full of harsh cuts and would include

19:43

some new spending measures saying we're charting

19:45

a responsible middle path. And

19:48

Chalmers will pay a $100 million penalty

19:51

for misleading customers after reaching

19:53

an agreement with the consumer

19:55

watchdog, the ACCC. The

19:57

penalty comes after Chalmers admitted to selling

19:59

tickets. Four.

20:07

Hundred and. Sixty.sights I'm asking them

20:09

again. C C Sit at and.

20:12

Think see how many who say oh it's.